#319 - Expert Warns: Deadliest Animal in the Ocean is Getting SMARTER | Chris Gillette

Summary

Danny Jones Podcast Episode #319: Expert Warns: Deadliest Animal in the Ocean is Getting SMARTER | Chris Gillette

Release Date: August 1, 2025
Host: Danny Jones
Guest: Chris Gillette
Description: In pursuit of knowledge and conservation, Danny Jones delves deep into the behaviors and intelligence of some of the ocean's most formidable predators with wildlife expert Chris Gillette.

---

1. Introduction to Apex Predators: Gators and Crocodiles [00:37 - 03:57]

The episode begins with a gripping discussion about recent incidents involving alligator attacks. Danny Jones (@00:37) brings up a shocking case where a man lost his leg to a gator while urinating near Sarasota. Chris Gillette (@01:08) shares insights into distinguishing between American crocodiles and alligators, emphasizing physical traits like dental alignment and skull structure.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [01:56]: "You can tell he's a croc just because you can see the teeth orientation and then look at his face, that skull structure, coloration."

2. Wildlife Photography and Observing Crocodile Behavior [03:11 - 08:16]

Chris recounts his experience photographing a massive 15-16 ft American crocodile in murky waters post-storm. He details the challenges and adrenaline of approaching such a formidable predator alone.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [03:57]: "Most of them are relatively calm. So, like, that's an American crocodile. Most American crocodiles are relatively calm."

3. Conservation Efforts: Bellowing Acres Sanctuary [80:32 - 87:56]

Chris introduces his ambitious project, Bellowing Acres, a 40-acre sanctuary dedicated to rescuing and rehabilitating over 200 crocodilians and other wildlife. He discusses the financial and logistical challenges, emphasizing the importance of saving "nuisance alligators" from being killed by the state.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [80:58]: "I put my whole life savings into creating this sanctuary. It's do or die here."

4. Population Trends: Alligators vs. Crocodiles in Florida [12:03 - 13:52]

The conversation shifts to population dynamics, highlighting Florida's stable alligator population of 1.3 million as a conservation success. In contrast, American crocodiles in Florida are threatened, with low numbers due to being at the northern edge of their range and susceptible to cold snaps.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [12:03]: "The population in Florida is very low now because we're the northern extent."

5. Shifting Baselines in Wildlife Conservation [24:14 - 26:21]

Chris explains the concept of shifting baselines, where current perceptions of wildlife populations are based on significantly reduced numbers compared to historical levels. He underscores that although protections have recently begun to show positive effects, populations remain much lower than they would be naturally.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [24:14]: "What we have now is like 80% lower than what it's supposed to be without people messing everything up."

6. Human and Shark Interactions: Perceptions vs. Reality [26:22 - 34:01]

The discussion broadens to include sharks, exploring how reduced fishing and increased human activities have altered shark behaviors. They touch on the impact of illegal fishing by Chinese vessels in places like Costa Rica and Indonesia, leading to overfishing and disrupted ecosystems.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [26:22]: "Sharks are taking the people's fish, but they're not actually your fish. It's their fish."

7. Intelligence of Apex Predators: Dolphins, Orcas, and Alligators [35:20 - 56:00]

Chris emphasizes the high intelligence of apex predators like orcas and dolphins, sharing anecdotes about their sophisticated behaviors and minimal attacks on humans in the wild. He stresses the importance of understanding and respecting these animals to prevent negative interactions.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [35:20]: "Animals are intelligent, they're so much smarter than you think they are."

8. Evolutionary Biology and Convergent Evolution: Neoteny [55:20 - 87:56]

The conversation delves into evolutionary biology, discussing phenomena like convergent evolution and neoteny—the retention of juvenile traits into adulthood. Chris speculates on whether human evolution is being influenced by technological lifestyles, leading to neotenous traits.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [55:20]: "Crab-like creatures have evolved at least five times. All roads lead to crab."

9. Risks and Safety in Interacting with Predators [07:33 - 08:44 & 85:19 - 88:18]

Chris shares vital safety strategies when encountering large predators like crocodiles, emphasizing the importance of maintaining eye contact and acting confidently to avoid being perceived as prey. He recounts a personal incident where a female alligator seized her partner during a seizure and explains the non-emotional nature of such predators.

Notable Quotes:
Chris Gillette [07:33]: "You're not safe ever... Always, always be on alert."
Chris Gillette [88:18]: "These animals have intelligence, they're so much smarter than you think they are."

10. Conclusion and Future Plans [87:56 - End]

In wrapping up, Chris outlines his vision for expanding Bellowing Acres, including the financial and bureaucratic hurdles he faces. He encourages listeners to support his sanctuary through donations and highlights the critical role such initiatives play in wildlife conservation.

Notable Quote:
Chris Gillette [87:56]: "We're trying to build enough ponds where you can take in some of these nuisance alligators. If anybody out there listening, if you have a concrete hookup, let me know."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Apex Predator Intelligence: Crocodilians and sharks possess high intelligence and complex behaviors that necessitate respectful and informed interactions.
• Conservation Successes and Challenges: Florida's alligator population is a testament to effective conservation, while American crocodiles face ongoing threats.
• Shifting Baselines: Current wildlife population perceptions underestimate historical numbers due to long-term human impacts.
• Global Fishing Practices: Illegal fishing, particularly by foreign vessels, severely disrupts marine ecosystems and predator behaviors.
• Evolutionary Insights: Convergent evolution and neoteny offer fascinating perspectives on both animal and human development.

Supporting Chris Gillette's Work: Chris Gillette's dedication to wildlife conservation is embodied in his sanctuary, Bellowing Acres. Listeners are encouraged to support his efforts through donations and by spreading awareness about the importance of protecting these intelligent and formidable predators.

Visit Bellowing Acres: www.bellowingacres.org
Donate: [Direct Donation Link]
Follow Chris Gillette: [Social Media Handles]

---

Final Note:
This episode serves as a compelling exploration of the intricate lives of apex predators, the successes and struggles in their conservation, and the broader implications for human interactions and evolutionary biology. Chris Gillette's firsthand experiences and expertise provide invaluable insights into safeguarding these remarkable animals for future generations.

Transcript

[A]

Buying a car in Carvana was so easy.

[B]

I was able to finance it through them. I just.

[A]

Whoa, wait, you mean finance?

[B]

Yeah, finance. Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto.

[A]

Loan, entered my terms and shot from.

[B]

Thousands of great car options, all within my budget. That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done.

[A]

And I get to pick up my.

[B]

Car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Financed, right?

[A]

That's what they said.

[B]

You can spend time trying to pronounce financing or you can actually finance and buy your car today on Carvana financing.

[A]

Subject to credit approval.

[B]

Additional terms and conditions may apply.

[A]

Do you know anyone who's been smoked by a gator dead?

[B]

No, but like really, really badly. Really bad stuff. Yeah.

[A]

Really? Yeah, doing. Basically trying to do make content and.

[B]

Stuff like that or some of it, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[A]

That's the craziest you've seen.

[B]

Are we rolling yet? Yeah, we're rolling because I can tell you one. But it happened relatively recently. So I don't want to say it because I want him to be able to say it. You know what I mean? I want him to tell his own story.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

You know, so I don't want to steal his thunder or something. But yeah, something pretty major happened.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Real bad.

[A]

I saw a video just maybe it wasn't the other day, but it was probably a couple months ago where this dude was pissing behind a bar in a lake somewhere. Somewhere I want to say, like near Sarasota and a gator just came up and just took his leg.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, while he was pissing in a lake.

[B]

I didn't see that one.

[A]

Yeah, and just like did. Did the death roll and completely ripped his leg off. The dude was like drunk, like, oh, my leg.

[B]

Whoa. I didn't see that one. I can't believe that I usually. Anything gator related, I'm usually sent about a thousand times in a day.

[A]

Really? You get all the gator news, dude.

[B]

Everybody's like, oh, Chris is going to love this. I'm like.

[A]

That'S great. So right before we started rolling, you were telling the story about this photo right here. What is the story behind this photo of this spooky looking gator?

[B]

Yeah, so he's. That one's a crocodile. So he's.

[A]

That's a crocodile.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So you can tell he's a croc. You see both rows of teeth sticking up. So on a gator from this perspective, you'd only see the top row teeth protruding down the bottom row. Teeth would fit in the sockets in the upper jaw. So, yeah, so when we look, I mean, there's a bunch of different ways to tell, but like just from that angle, you know, that's a crocodile just because of like, you can see the teeth orientation and then once you're more versed in them, just looking at his face, that skull structure, coloration. Yeah, but for a very basic. Yeah, just looking. The zigzagging teeth, that's croc. Unless it's a messed up gator. They can also get what's called metabolic bone disease, which will alter the sockets of their teeth. It happens a lot captivity. You can mess up teeth like that. But anyways. Yeah, so he's American crocodile. So I sent you a murky version of him if you want to pull that up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because that'll show you. Because that's how the story of this guy starts.

[A]

All the photos are going to pull up on this one right here. Did you send that to me the first time?

[B]

To the left. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Right there. Murky, that one. Yeah. Or the one to the right of it might show it a little bit better. Yeah.

[A]

Whoa. That's even scary because see it that good.

[B]

That's the same croc that's in the same water. So. Yes. And the two shots are like two weeks apart.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that was after a storm, but that was the first time I saw him. And so it's been like a. A very big goal of mine to photograph in the wild a large American crocodile. Like that. But they're usually murky areas and obviously, like crocs and merc don't mix. Yeah. Unless it's. You want to mix your blood in there too. So like I saw him on the surface and I was like, oh, my God, that is. It's a huge croc, for one. You know, I mean, that croc's like 15, 16ft. He's massive. And I saw him and I'm by myself and I was just like, like, do I. Do I try to do this? Like, I had all my gear with me, all my underwater gear and everything, but I'm alone and I look at the water and like, this is an area. Like, I was in that spot because it is usually clear. But there was a big storm that rolled through and so it murked everything up.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and so then I saw him and I'm like, like, I gotta try that. You know, like, people ask me all the time, like, are you scared? Are you nervous? And I don't want to be like, no, I'm way Too cool for. No, like, I'm usually not. Honestly, like, I'm. I'm really not scared. This is one of the few moments I was like, I was legitimately nervous because that is murky water. And, like, I don't mess around in murky water with them. It's just.

[A]

Do you bring any kind of like bang stick or knife or anything with you just in case? No, no.

[B]

I mean, I. It's kind of like what's like a good analogy? Like, I would rather be a trained fighter against someone in a fight than be someone with no training with a weapon against a trained fighter. You get what I'm trying to say?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, like, that's a trained killer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not, you know, so, like, I would rather know what I'm doing against something that is an apex predator killing machine than to have a false sense of security with a weapon.

[A]

What would be worst case scenario? Going down and seeing that thing down there.

[B]

Oh, it rips you in half.

[A]

Like. But how would you know. Like, how would you know that?

[B]

Because you'd see your legs over there like that. An animal, I'm not even kidding. An animal that size, if he grabs you and he. I mean, just literally a 15, 16 footer, like, that gets your leg or your. I mean, you, you could just. Oh, wow, there goes, you know, my butt floating that way with the legs attached. And I'm going this way. Like, I mean, thankfully, thankfully. He was very calm. He was cool. But, like, I didn't know that, you know, and like, they are individual for sure. Like, they're individual animals and like, they have individual personalities. And some of them are chill, some of them are not chill. Most of them, depending on what species we're talking about, most of them are relatively calm. So, like, that's an American crocodile. Most American crocodiles are relatively calm. I have worked with some that are not rarely, rarely. They are pretty gnarly. So I didn't know, you know, like, going to that and like, I'm underwater and I'm free diving it too. And that's like 20ft, you know, just. But like, yeah, you do dive and stuff? Like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I grew up free diving around here. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So not so much anymore, but.

[B]

Well, so, you know, free diving low, your heart rate. Right. And like, I'm pretty. I'm not like a probe. I can hold my breath five minutes, you know, I can go down 100ft, you know, like when I want to. I could barely hold my breath because my heart was just like, you know, I Was like, dude, that is a huge crock. You don't know what he's gonna do. And you're by yourself, you know? So like, I'd go down and get on the bottom and just start slowly creeping up and. But you can't see anything, you know, like, this is a wide angle lens. That's a 10. Like, wow. Yeah.

[A]

So it's a 10 millimeter.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So like, you can't see crap, man. Like, no, that thing, I mean, it's like as far away from us as the TV is right now for that shot, you know? And so, like, I'm creeping up and you see is the white of the teeth. Just those massive teeth, dude. And I start creeping up on him. And then thankfully, he was chill. So if you go to the photo to the left, so you'll see. So that's the one I. I actually got of him. So, I mean, that's like. Right.

[A]

That camera is like 5 inches from his mouth.

[B]

Less.

[A]

Less than 5 inches from his mouth. So how did you. Okay, so you. You knew he was in there. You saw him on the top first.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then by the time you got your gear on, got in the water, he had already gone to the bottom.

[B]

Yes. And then you got to find him.

[A]

So how long did it take you to swim around and find him?

[B]

I don't know, like, maybe 15, 20 minutes.

[A]

15, 20 minutes, you know?

[B]

And you're just creeping around, trying to find them? Yeah, it was sketchy. Like, it was very, very sketchy.

[A]

And what would have been, like, what was the. The telltale sign that you knew you would be safe versus you knew you wouldn't be safe? Like, what, what behavior would you have to observe to know that?

[B]

So the answer is you're not safe ever.

[A]

Ever. Right? For sure.

[B]

Yeah, like, for sure. And like, I get that question all the time. People are like, well, how do you know you're safe? And I'm like, because I know that I'm not safe. Like, you always, always be on alert. Never think you're safe, you know, like, you're dealing with an apex predator. So in his situation, that animal is afraid of me, honestly, you know, because like, humans, I mean, we are the thing that kills everything on this planet. So most animals are afraid of humans, you know, and most animals at, at, especially at that size, he's lived a long time, you know, so he's probably had some negative experiences with humans. So he's afraid of me. And so in that instance, he's just hunkering down, holding still. Hoping I don't notice him. And I'm also not going to act like prey either. So I'm going to come. I'm approach him, you know, like, I approach him like, head on. I act confident, you know, and like, I'm not acting like prey. Now if you're like flapping around underwater and like, yeah, he's going to see you as prey, you know, so it's a lot in how you move, but then also understanding his behavior. You want him to see you as another potential predator, but also not to be afraid of you because then he's going to be defensive. So, like, you don't want to piss him off, but you also don't want to act like prey. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Right. So have you seen the footage of Manny Puig? You know, Manny Pig?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Where he goes into the canal. There's a famous video of the canal monster.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He swims down in a Speedo and he's literally levitating this, like, massive alligator out of the water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All the way. It must have been. I don't know how deep that was. Maybe 10ft, maybe 12ft. But he, like, literally grabbed that thing. Like, well, that. That's a croc. This thing was a gator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think crocs are a lot more aggressive, Right?

[B]

Depends what kind. There's over 20 different species of crocodilians and so of the crocodiles, like American crocodiles like this are generally pretty calm. They don't normally see humans as a food source. You can think about, like, what they're hardwired to eat. Like, they evolved to mainly eat more fish. And that's really their game. You know, they get fish, they get birds, you get smaller animals. But if we're talking about, like Nile crocodiles in Africa, they evolved to take down megafauna, so they're taking down zebras, wildebeest. You are smaller than their normal prey. You are prey, you know? So, like, I. I've been in the water with Nile crocodiles as well. Way more freaky. Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. I own a Nile crocodile now and I got four of them. No, three. Yeah.

[A]

Where the hell did you get a Nile crocodile?

[B]

So one of them was gifted to me from Gatorland, and then the other two were donated to my sanctuary. Okay, yeah, but. But anyways, just like that, the psychology is totally different. It's a totally different animal. Like, most people think like, oh, croc is a croc is a croc, right? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's like saying like a dog is a dog. Chihuahua. Same thing as a pit bull. Right. Obviously Chihuahua is more likely to bite you.

[A]

Yeah, that's something I learned when Forest was on here teaching me this stuff. And thanks shout to Forest for introducing me to your stuff. And he was explaining to me how there's all kinds of different orcas too. Yeah, I had no clue. Yeah, and he was explaining how he one day was like chasing these orcas off the coast of like, I think it was like South America or east, somewhere on the west coast. And it was like this random migrating species of orca that just migrate. They never stay in one spot and they just feed on all kinds of different animals, which is wild. I didn't know that about crocs.

[B]

Yeah, so same thing, you know, like Nile crocs, saltwater crocs, those absolutely see humans as prey, but like American crocs typically don't. Now of course you can do stupid stuff and end up on the menu. You know, I'm not saying they're safe, but like. Yeah, thankfully, you know, but, but anyways, we could, we could skip to the clear version of this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cuz that was just cool. I just had to show that one to show like this is what it was like at first.

[A]

Right. And then so all these other ones, the. So like this one, where is this one at?

[B]

So that is at a place called the Outpost down in the Everglades. And that's a croc, an alligator I worked with for years.

[A]

Alligator?

[B]

Yeah. His name is Casper. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so a lot of these gators are gators like that you've rescued and rehabilitated or. Or so more domestic.

[B]

No. So they are wild caught nuisance alligators. Yeah. So they're caught out of the wild as an adult animal. So you know, Florida has a big nuisance alligator problem. Well, really has a nuisance person problem that then creates nuisance alligators, you know, so that's why I do like my psa. If I can put that out there. Don't feed them, don't get in the water with them. You see me doing it. Please don't do that. Keep your kids and pets away from the water's edge. You know, those are the three things that cause the most problems with human alligator conflict. But feeding them is one of the biggest problems we have. And so once they show up where they're not supposed to be, most gators are just killed. The state kills about 8,000 nuisance alligators annually.

[A]

So each year, 8K and all somebody has to do is just call and say they're afraid of it.

[B]

Exactly right.

[A]

They'll come and take the alligator and kill.

[B]

Exactly right. That's why they don't allow relocation over four feet, so that just. They're all going to die, you know, and that's how the trapper actually makes his living, is killing the gator and then selling the meat and the hide. So he's incentivized to do so, actually. So like at my sanctuary, what we're trying to do is build up enough pawns where you can take in some of these nuisance alligators. So the ones that I have are nuisance gators that would have been shot and killed. And so we, either some of the trappers are cool enough, they'll donate them, or we will pay the trapper what he would have made from the skin and be able to save that alligator's life.

[A]

No way. What is the, what is the current, like, population of gators and like, what direction is it headed?

[B]

In Florida, it's like 1.3 million.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Okay. So it's doing, it's doing pretty well. You know, they're stable. They, they're one of the great success stories. The Endangered Species act, you know, they were one of the first animals listed and they were near extinction just due to hunting for their hides. And then they did captive breeding, reintroduction programs, and then just general protection of them. And the population rebuil founded really well. So it's a really good story.

[A]

What was the lowest it got?

[B]

You know, so there's actually a little bit of confliction on that because a lot of people think that it wasn't properly sampled because of remote areas holding more than what they would think. So I've heard that kind of go back and forth kind of thing.

[A]

And then what about crocodiles?

[B]

So the American crocodiles in Florida, we're the northern extent of the range. So they range from northern South America throughout Central America and then southern North America, which is us.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So our population of South Florida is listed as threatened under the Nature Species Act. The population as a whole across the range is pretty good, but in Florida, it's very low now. It's very low also because we're the northern extent, you know, so, like, it's naturally low because they can't go any farther north. You know, they're, they're climactically limited. More they can be in Florida.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, like, you know, when we had the cold snaps, they're toast.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah, they can't survive cold water.

[B]

Exactly. So as it's been warm, really warm for several years, they go all the way up north. Titusville, you know, they end up way up north if we don't have a cold snap. And then you get a cold snap, boom. Those guys are toast.

[A]

Wow. Dude. Yeah. I was shocked when I saw. I saw a gator, or not a gator, but a croc in the Cayman Islands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Once, a long time ago. And I was like, what the hell this is this thing doing here? I didn't know they were in the Cayman Islands in this, like, perfectly clear water.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, throughout the. I mean, they have a huge range, you know, so, like. Like I was saying, throughout Central America and the Caribbean, like. Yeah, they've got a pretty big range out to Jamaic, you know. It's pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, that is wild. Is this. Is this the picture we were looking for earlier?

[B]

Oh, no, no, it was. It was just.

[A]

You ever found it, Steve?

[B]

Oh, it's that one.

[A]

Oh, it's that one. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, that's what we're talking about. That's the same dude.

[A]

That's the same guy.

[B]

Yeah. So that's.

[A]

That's different time, though.

[B]

Exactly. So that was like, two weeks later in the same spot, and it was clear, you know, so, like I said, it was murky the first time because of the storm. So I came back, and he was in the same spot, and it was actually clear. And that's how I got, like, that shot. And that's one of my favorite shots. I got that one printed up at home.

[A]

So he just. He stayed there. He never moved. He just came down there, snapped the photo, and swam away. He never moved.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he was just, like I said, in camouflage mode, that's what they do a lot of the time, is they're just like, hope nobody can see me, you know, and they just kind of hunker down. But, you know, again, that can change. And I. I absolutely tell everybody all the time, getting in the water with them is incredibly dangerous. Yeah, don't get in the water with them. I usually, you know, when they're on the bottom like that, they are pretty calm. But if they're not, man, like, I mean, you can die so fast, and even if it didn't rip you in half, let's just say he just bit your leg.

[A]

Hey, guys, if you're not already subscribed, please hammer the subscribe button below and hit the like button on the video back to the show. Right.

[B]

You know, and he just held on and then he just sat there. He can hold his breath six hours. What do you got?

[A]

Right?

[B]

So literally, if he wants to, he can just. And just sit there and then you're just going to drown.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

You know, so that's why I try to tell people, what do you do.

[A]

If they do clamp down on you?

[B]

So if you have the presence of mind, okay, that's the thing, right? I mean, how much presence of mind are you going to retain while you're getting ripped to pieces, you know, So I get people all the time, like, what do I do? And a lot of people ask me that because they want to put themselves in stupid situations they're not prepared for. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So like it's like a self defense class where you're like, you're going to teach somebody something just enough to give them the confidence to get themselves hurt. You know what I mean? So like, I mean, I'll, I'll tell you, but I'm just saying that I want to put that out first. Like, please don't take this as like, you know, for people watching. I know what to do now. I heard this on a podcast. I'm gonna jump in the water, right? I'm a pro. Please don't. You know, so if you were to be grabbed, you have the presence of mind. What the animal does depends on why did it bite you? And I. And I mean that, you know, like, why did it bite you? They don't just bite to bite, you know. So like, is he biting you because he's been fed and it's a feeding response. Is he biting you because you're getting too close and you're pissing him off? It'. Defensive. Is he biting you because you're near? If it's a female, it's babies, you know, or does it see you as prey? You know, and then if it does see you as prey, is it apprehensive about you as prey or is it confident? Because that makes a huge difference too. So a lot of times if somebody's in the water and an alligator sees them as potential prey, so. Or a crocodile. Well, to back up for a second, what usually happens if you're in the water and they're on the surface, his eyes sticking up like an inch above the surface, you know, they're very low profile. So if he's looking you as a swimmer on the surface, all he sees is your head and your arms flapping. You're a funny looking duck man. You look like small prey. So from his perspective, you are small prey. So that's why even alligators, they don't typically see people as prey. They will come right to rip your head off because he thinks your head is all you are. And so I've had him do that to me in the wild. And if you're in water, a lot of Florida is very shallow. So I've had them coming right at me. And then you just stand up and they just even chest high and they're like, oh, whoa. That is not really. Yeah. And they back off immediately because they're like, that's not what I thought it was. So a lot of it, a lot of it really is. They think your head is all you are and then your arms flapping, you know. So a lot of times that's why I say, like, don't go swimming, you know, in the waters and lakes in Florida, because if they just see your head, man, they're going. Even a small. I've had five foot gators smaller than I am come right from my head because they think that's what it is. It looks like a duck, you know, and then you just stand up and they're like, oh, whoa, that's way bigger than I thought it was.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

You know, So a lot of times you can get them to back off just by acknowledging their presence, you know, looking right at them standing up, going upright. And then they realize, oh, that's, that's not what I thought it was. So a lot of it is like a misperception, you know. Now let's say it's not. Let's say it's a really big gator, he doesn't care, you know, he's coming in. Now. Usually they are actually, they're smart, you know, and they are apprehensive about novel things. They're nervous. They're like, I don't know what this is. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna move with some care. And so if you get grabbed, a lot of times you just turn around and you punch them right in the face, like in the eye, in the nose. A lot of times they will release because they're a little nervous and like, I know it sounds crazy. It really is though, because they're not sure what you are. And they're like investigating investigator in, you know, investigator. So they're trying to figure out are you prey. And a lot of times if you do hit them, a lot of times they'll back off because they're like, oh, whoa, this thing fights. I don't Know what it is? I'm not really sure yet. And so they're afraid. Now, that's not because you're hurting it, it's because you're scaring it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't hurt it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the thing.

[A]

Those things have a very high pain tolerance.

[B]

That's the point. That's exactly. So that's. That's what I'm escalating to is like, you are not hurting it, you're scaring it. Because if it is not afraid of you, or if it's defensive bite where it's fighting for its life and yet thinks you're trying to kill it, it's not letting go. I don't care what you do. I know guys have been bit. Start stabbing it with a knife, shoot it in the head if you're not rupturing. The brain case is not letting go. Like, that's what I'm saying. So, like, it's crazy. I've heard some crazy stories like that, you know, And I'm like, that's. That's why I tell people, like, if it really wants you, there's nothing you can physically do as a human. So best case scenario is it's just curious about you. You know, you hit it in the eyes, you hit it in the nose, and that is sensitive. It does cause pain. They feel pain as long as they don't feel it, but they can choose to ignore it. So if you give it some pain as you scare it, a lot of times, it'll back off. But if it's defensive or if it's really big and very confident, you got nothing. You're not gonna be able inflate. Even if you have a knife, you're not going to do anything. You put it right through his eye, he's not gonna let go. Like, if you see them when they fight each other, you know, arm ripped right off, they don't flinch. Yeah, like, arm off.

[A]

Twist each other's arms off like nothing.

[B]

And they don't flinch. You know, so that's what I mean. It depends on what his motivation. Why is he biting you? You know? So what will work? The one thing that will work all the time, and this is like, it's kind of cool because as far as I know, I kind of came up with this technique. It's what I call flooding them. So at the back of the mouth, they have the palatal valve. You have pall valve too. Same reason you can be underwater, open your mouth, you don't immediately drown, right? So, but yours is like Back here. Theirs is right there at the back. So that's why in their mouth opens, it just kind of ends right here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? So if you pry, it floods them, the water goes in, they are immediately drowning. Yes. It works every time. So that's what's foolproof. But that means you got to get something in there. So.

[A]

So if you're already in there, if there's. If they're on your shoulder and your arms in there, you can just hold that thing down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they'll.

[B]

It's immediately going to let go because he's. Now he's drowning. Yeah. So if he's got one arm, you put your other arm in there. Now the problem is he's got to.

[A]

Be in the water, though.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So if you're on land, this is going to work. Now, I have done it on land with a hose because I've had them get stuff like working in captivity. I've worked at tourism, parks, you know, all through my 20s and everything. And you always get some jerk that, like there's a water bottle at them, you know, like, people are just hate them, you know, so they throw, like, stuff at him, and if he. They think it's food, you know, like you throw a water ball at his head and he's like, oh, what is that? And they eat it and it gets stuck. It blocks them. It can kill them. It can block their intestinal tract, you know. So I've had them get water bottles and stuff like that on land, and I jump on the alligator's back and have one of my friends bring over a hose, and we like, pry it and like, get the hose into the gap back here. And as soon as you get the hose past the valve, turn on the water immediately. Let's go.

[A]

No way.

[B]

So I've done it on land, I've done it in the water like that, you know, so that. That works every time. So that's the one thing. But it's just imagine like he's got this arm. So you shove your other arm in there to try pry it open. But before you get to the valve, he rolls and both arms are gone. Yeah. So I'm not saying it's like something that you should take is like, I know what to do.

[A]

Right. Yeah. It's not a get. It's not a get out of jail free card by any means.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I want. So when they hunt, do they like. Do they hunt on the surface below? All. All of the above.

[B]

All the above.

[A]

Because like, I've never heard of somebody, obviously, if they're gonna bite a human 99.9 of the time, I'm sure it's on the surface of the water or by the shore. So it's in. It's not underwater.

[B]

So usually if a human's getting bit, it's because they're feeding it, you know, or somebody else had fed the animal gets it. To associate people with food, they're naturally afraid of us, like I was saying, you know, so, like, they really want nothing to do with us for the most part, unless somebody's illegally been feeding it, you know, and then. Then it will see you as price. So usually it is somebody on the shore, either they're feeding it or somebody else had been feeding it, that kind of a thing, you know. But so on the surface, they hunt like that, you know, and they will track prey on the surface if. Or perceived prey, like your head, if you're a swimmer, you know, or like ducks and stuff like that. Underwater, what they usually do is they ambush. So they sit totally still with their mouth wide open and that palatal valve closed, and they just wait for stuff to bump into them. And so. So they'll sit purposefully at, like, culvert pipes or any kind of bottleneck where the water has to come together. And they just sit there like this, right into the flowing water and wait for fish to come through that are caught up in the current.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's really cool. They're really smart, you know, and they just sit there and chill like that.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Now, if you were to step on one like that, obviously that's how you can get bit too.

[A]

Right? Right. What is. What is the. The law in Florida in regards to hunting gators? Is that. Is that a big thing or hunting gators? Crocs.

[B]

Is that so? Well, they don't. They definitely don't allow any croc hunting. So.

[A]

No crocs?

[B]

Yeah. No, no. So they're, like I said, they're protected under the ESA as a threatened species, so.

[A]

Because I was talking to Manny Puig about this regarding sharks, and he was. What he was explaining to me was that I think it was in, like the 80s, there was, like, way too many sharks. And then they allowed. They opened it up for people to fish them, and then the population went down a little bit, then they stopped it. And, like, right now, there's. The shark population is off the charts. Florida.

[B]

So this is one of my favorite things to talk about. Yeah. All right. So do you know the concept of shifting Baselines. No, you heard this. Okay, so basically, it's shifting your baseline data. So your baseline is whatever your normal is, what you think normal is. Now, the problem is that we're talking about things as normal for right now. Humans have a very short lifespan, right? So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the normal right now is completely unnatural. So you have to think about, like, how long we've been fishing the oceans in Florida, you know, so if you think about, like, 200 years ago, the shark population would have been. Yeah, I'm just spitballing here. Like, it would have been, you know, whatever four or five times what it is now. So the way to look at this is what we have now is, like, let's say it's 80% lower than what it's supposed to be without people messing everything up. Okay? So if the population is down 80% right now because of what we've been doing for the last, you know, 100, 200, 300 years here of fishing and everything. So the population is really, really low. But within our short lifespans, we go out and we see, like, okay, when I was a kid, there was this many sharks. We don't know it's 80% lower. We just know this is what it is. That's your baseline for sure. So then we have environmental protections in the 70s. The ESA, you know, is put through within the 70s. That's endangered species Act. Okay. So we have all this environmental movement. And so a lot of populations of animals are just now starting to increase because of protections that were done when we were children, or some of us not even born. Right. So we're seeing. But keep in mind that generational increase takes a long time. So now we're starting to see some of the effects of these protections. And so the population is slowly starting to increase now. So people that were, you know, around in the 80s, they're looking at like, well, back then there was, you know, this amount. Your baseline, 80% lower. Now there's a 10% increase. So let's say now the actual Natural population is 70% lower than what it should be without humans. But to me, there's more sharks than there's ever been because my lifespan is so short and we have so much hubris as humans. So we're like, there's more than ever. We have to kill them off. Not realizing it's so much lower than what it's supposed to be without us being there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You get what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah, totally. No, that makes sense. But it seems like, I think with the rise of more People spearfishing and being in the ocean more. More surfing all around the coast. There's definitely been a huge uptick in shark attacks. And I've talked to spear fishermen. I think actually Force was talking about this too. The sharks have become. Off the coast of Florida. They've become addicted to the sound. Not addicted to. But they associate. They're. They've associated the sound of speargun bands popping.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

With. With food.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So whenever you're going out there and you're popping your spear, you're shooting your spear gun, sharks are automatically coming because they know there's. There's fish there. And he was saying that they can go off the coast of, like, Sebastian Inlet or whatever or Miami and just go out there and start popping their bands and sharks will just start coming up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is completely freaking nuts, man.

[B]

They're smart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so they make that association, you know? So, like, if you're the shark and you're trying to hunt fish all day, and you're like, bro, these fish are so fast. This sucks. And then here's this monkey jumping around in the water. He got. How did he get a fish? These things suck at swimming, and he can't protect that fish at all. I'm gonna snatch that thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's easy. It's so much easier to steal food from the fishermen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than it is to have to hunt your own fish, you know? So of course they're smart. You know, they're going to learn that, and then they're like, I'm just going to wait for that guy to come back. And then this happens all the time. And they pick up on it. They're like, so if I just hang out over here, I get free food instead of having to actually hunt these fish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they will follow. They'll make that association. They're smart, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, and with, like, regular fishing, I know like that just from people. I talk to that fish for a living. There's just saying, like, sharks are like. They're becoming a major problem just with, like, taking people's fish all the time. And, you know, not to say that that's necessarily, like, a bad thing for the environment. Maybe it's not a bad thing for the environment, but it's just. It's crazy to see the boom in the shark population lately.

[B]

So a way to look at that is like, well, first of all, the sharks are taking the people's fish.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. No, no, they're not actually.

[A]

Right. Exactly. It's their fish.

[B]

It's it's their fish, it's not your fish. It is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's just from the start, that's their world. That's not your world.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. You're a guest over there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but the other way to think about too is the amount of fishing that we do. You know, we already know, like global fisheries around the world are crashing. Everything is going down. We're taking way too much fish, you know, I mean, when you look like. I don't know if you travel a lot, but like when you look out there, you see like Chinese fishing vessels everywhere. Everywhere. So like in Costa Rica they don't have military. Right. So Chinese fishing vessels just cruise right in there, take what they want. What are you going to do?

[A]

Do they really in Costa Rica?

[B]

Yes. So I was, I was working in Cocos national park for National Geographic. Actually we're filming a show there and you could just see them right on the edge of the marine protected zone. And they're only on the edge because you're there looking at them. And then as soon as you leave, they just move into the marine protected zone and kill everything. And they just take whatever they want. They don't respect international boundaries at all. They do not care, really. They'll just move right in, take whatever they want and leave. So like, if you're not stopping them with a military force, they don't care. So I don't know if you saw this is just recently. I cannot remember what country it was, but yeah, some country. I know it was in Southeast Asia. Somewhere over there they started blowing up these fishing vessels because the, the Chinese fishing vessels are taking so much of the fish. The local people have nothing to eat and so they're fighting back with, with weapons and blowing up the ships because they're like, are people are going to starve and they're just, they're not respecting international boundaries at all and just taking whatever they want.

[A]

You gotta find this, Steve. I'm sure it's online. You can find it somewhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Blowing up Chinese fishing vessels. I didn't know China had a crazy international fishing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Industry like that. I knew Japan was crazy, like with the whaling and all that stuff and the dolphin.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean that's not good either. But I mean, I'm not an expert in this, so I don't want to like go too into the rabbit hole because I'm going to start going where. Like I don't know that much on it, but like I have seen that myself, you know. Of, like, the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The Chinese ones. There you go.

[A]

Blowing up Chinese.

[B]

Indonesia.

[A]

Oh, Indonesia has blown up Chinese fishing vessels as part of its effort to combat illegal fishing. In May of 2016, Indonesian destroyed 23 foreign fishing boats, including Chinese vessels, to send a message about illegal fishing activities. Yeah, there's also a big dolphin industry in Indonesia. I had Richard o' Barry on here a few months back who did the. The. The movie the COVID Oh, yeah. And he was. He basically. He did this crazy covert operation to hide cameras in this fishing cove in Japan where they were basically, they. They take boats out offshore and they.

[B]

Like, corral all the dolphins around all.

[A]

The dolphin with, like, these sonar things. Sonar stuff. And, like, they net it off and they take these sticks, they just stab them to death, and then it turns into this just massive red bloodbath. And they documented it and they made this documentary, and it won, like, a ton of crazy awards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And he was explaining to me how the. The fishing industry in Japan is just, like, it's off the chain and it's so. And it's like, it's so tied into their government, too, that you can't get anything done.

[B]

Yeah, it's really, really, really bad stuff, man. And so where I was. I mean, that's a whole thing. But, like, where I was going with a lot of this is like, back to Florida. Yeah, the sharks move. They migrate, you know. So if you're a migrating shark and you're in one of these areas that's just getting raped and pillaged and, like, there's nothing to eat over there, where are you gonna hang out? Where it's protected here, where we protect our waters, where we have resources, you know, so you can get accumulation of animals, are like, this is. This place is amazing. This is where there is food. You know what I mean? And, like, so, like, comparatively, like, what would you do if you were the shark, you know, especially if you're on a migration route like that?

[A]

Yeah, I'd be hanging out where all the spear fishermen are, you know, and.

[B]

Like, we forget that, like, these animals move through. And so when you're out there and you see, like, there's a ton of them, you're like, there's. It's overpopulated here. And you're like, bro, those are sharks that have come from thousands of miles away, some of them, you know, especially when. When it's the right time of year on their migration, they're breeding, they're using the Gulf Stream. They're moving through, you know, so, like, you can have these rises and falls, you know, based on migration. And so it gives you the perception that there's more than ever because they don't live here, man. That's like going to a club in Miami and being like, oh, my God, there's so many people that live. None of those people live here.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

You know, especially during breeding migration. So we have, you know, in this. In the summers, I do a lot of shark diving off of Jupiter, you know, and, like, there's tons of them out there. In the summer, there's so many. I'm like, again, you're going to the club and. And you're. This is their club, man. And you're like, there's so many that live here. None of them live here. Okay. You know, they're migrating. I mean, obviously there's some that live here, you know, like, depending what species we're talking about.

[A]

Is Florida the only state that's protects sharks that heavily? Or do other states like North Carolina, South Carolina, all those coastal east coast states, they protect sharks, too. Do you know?

[B]

So I know some. I. I think there's a. I know Hawaii does a lot of protection, too, as far as I know. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Hawaii is crazy. People getting eaten by tiger sharks over there lately.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you got. So another way to look at it. Most of, like, the reoccurring theme here is perception. Right. We have more people than ever, and we have more people than ever in the water. You know, like, this stuff's gonna happen. You know what I mean? But, like, again, it's perception. Like, we don't care how many people died today in car accidents.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, somebody gets ripped apart by a shark, we want to go kill a huge part of it, you know? But I mean, like, that perception of, like, we want to get vengeance, you know, where it's just like, there's no vengeance against cars.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, there's no vengeance against kids drowning in their own bathtub at home.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That happens all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We want to get these things because they're predatory animals. And we're like, we can go kill them. You know, we can get them back. And it's like, do you think they understand that? They don't know. That's the Avengers thing is one that, like, really catches me up a lot, too. I get so mad, like, well, they kill one of ours, we're gonna go kill 10 of theirs. And I'm like, right. Do you think they tell their friends, do you think that, oh, better not mess with them. They kill 10? No there's your buddies just dying. They don't know why.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, they don't make that connection.

[A]

You know, I think the orcas do make the connection.

[B]

Oh, well, that's a different story. Yeah, that's a different story. That's a super intelligent animal.

[A]

Yes, yes. And the orcas and the dolphin. I know Force was telling the story about how those orcas were ramming that boat.

[B]

Yeah, that's some cool out in the.

[A]

Middle of the Atlantic.

[B]

Cool. I think it's easy, dude. Yeah.

[A]

And there's. I was watching a video on Instagram the other day too, where this lady was. She was swimming. I think it was somewhere off the coast of California. And there was like this mother orca. And it's two calves just like, following it around. Following this lady around as she was swimming. Just like swimming all around her, like, putting their nose up to her feet and like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not hurting her at all. And she just kept swimming with these orcas surrounding her. And this drone was filming the whole thing.

[B]

So what I love about that is like, okay, I'm obviously an environmentalist. You know, I love animals. But, like, there's like, it's like everything. There's a spectrum. And there's definitely the spectrum of like, like full on crazy person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, and so like, the crazy person sees that video and they're like, it's so beautiful.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And I'm watching that, like, oh, my God, they're trying to see if she's food. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I've swam with orcas and like, you look at them wild ones. Yeah, I did in Norway. And like. Yeah. And you're just like, oh, that thing is so smart. Like, the only reason they're not eating people is because they don't want to yet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. Like, you. They don't want to mess. You don't want to. Like, I literally said when I went there, I was like, I'm gonna go before something bad happens. And then you can't go anymore. Like, that's the way I kind of looked at it because I was like, we need to be a lot smarter about how we interact with, like, giant, predatory, super intelligent animals that like, thankfully don't see us as prey, you know? And like, right now they don't. Let's not give them a reason to. There's too many stupid people doing things like, you know, like pushing the limit with that kind of animal. And you're like, it takes one person to do something really, really dumb. And then that orca's like, that was really easy. It tasted really good.

[A]

What made you want to swim with. Go to Norway to swim with orcas?

[B]

I. I mean, it's just an incredible animal. Yeah. I mean, I just like. I mean, a lot of. So, like, different facets of why I do what I do kind of thing, and obviously education, conservation, I want to go, I want to tell that thing story, you know, I want to use, like, my social media platform to bring more awareness to that animal. But then there's the other side. It's just. It's just me and my heart, my soul. I'm like, I want to be around these animals that just give me this sense of awe and like, just the raw power they have, and it's just incredible, you know? So, like, deep down, I do it for me, I do it because I love it, you know? But then also, I'm obviously going to try to use that for education, conservation, whatnot, too.

[A]

So how did that go? Like, what did you guys do? You guys have to go hunt them down, find where they were and then jump. Just like, find them and jump in front of them or what?

[B]

I. I wish mine was a better story. It was a mess. We actually got, like, really bad weather. We got snowed in and. God. Yeah, it was that cold. It was horrific. Yeah. And so, like, we got snowed in almost the whole time. You know, I. I paid out of pocket all the way over there, fly over there, rent everything. Renting the boat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, I did it on my own, you know, like, I've got to do a lot of cool stuff because I get funded by, you know, different TV shows and networks, so I get to do a lot of cool stuff for free. This one out of pocket. And we just got screwed on the weather, so. So, like, literally it was like the last possible day. And the captain's like, well, guys, snow hasn't stopped. It's too bad where you can't go. And I'm like, I paid a lot of money. Like, I had to, like, kind of get in the guy's face. And, like, we're going, like. And I run tourist operations, too. And like, I. I could tell, like, he just didn't want to go. It sucked. I was like, I could tell this is doable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I wouldn't do something that's not safe, you know, Like, I wouldn't push somebody to go if it's not safe. But I also tell this guy, like, like, he just didn't want to deal with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It wasn't unsafe. It Was uncomfortable.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, and I'm like, no, bro, we're going. And we go out there and like, we finally. We saw, you know, saw this big male orca going by, and I just dipped right off the back of the boat. And, like, I got in with him, man, and I got to see him. It was super cool.

[A]

Oh, this is the video I was telling you about. Look at this. Yeah, I mean, she's really close to the beach, too. Look, look, you can see. You can see the whitewash right there where the waves are crashing. This is what? Oh, this is Hawaii media that she thought.

[B]

So, like, she says she was wearing. When you see that, you know, you're like, oh, my God, it's beautiful. And they're curious, they're super intelligent. And thankfully, again, they don't see us as food. But then I would also.

[A]

That water's like six feet deep. That's crazy.

[B]

Swimming, splashing. I would not be doing anything that.

[A]

I would be doing a left turn.

[B]

So, like, I mean, I just think about myself. If I was the person in the situation, I would put my eyes right towards them the whole time. Maintain eye contact the entire time. Let the animal know. I'm acknowledging it. That's a predatory animal. You got to treat it like such, you know? And again, like, I'm not. We run into this problem all the time. Like, for me, as an animal advocate, where, like, I have to deal with the crazy people on both sides. People think in extremes. I say this all the time. Everybody thinks in extremes. It's either a bloodthirsty killing machine, or it's a tame puppy that won't hurt anyone, never hurt a soul. I'm like, reality's in the middle, man. You know? And I try to tell people that all the time. Like, treat that thing with respect. Like, again, I wouldn't be splashing. I wouldn't do anything that could possibly be interpreted as prey to that animal in any way whatsoever, you know, and, like, but obviously, if it wanted her, it could take her immediately and it's just checking her out. They're super intelligent, but, like, yeah, don't be in the camp of either crazy side. You know, Try to stick in reality in the middle and be like, no, it's not a. It's not a killing machine. It's a super intelligent animals checking you out. It's also not a puppy.

[A]

Also, I don't know if there's been any cases of orcas attacking humans in history in the wild.

[B]

Yeah, as far as I know, there's.

[A]

Not can you find that, Steve? See if there's any, any documented cases of an orca attacking a human. I'd be interested to see that. Obviously in captivity it's happened, but. Right, that's way different.

[B]

But you're giving it a reason.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So same thing here. Like, let's say that, let's say she's swimming and the baby comes up and the baby's like, really curious.

[A]

And then take the baby in the face, the orca's pissed.

[B]

Exactly. That's where I was going with it.

[A]

Wild orcas have rarely attacked humans in the wild. There's only unreliable report of a wild orca seriously injuring a human, which occurred in 1972 when a surfer was bitten by an orca off the coast of California. Despite the intelligence and strength of the orcas, there's no verified cases of wild orcas attacking humans for reasons other than a mistaken identity or curiosity. Right, Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the thing. That's like I always say, like, I'm way more afraid of bull sharks, the name of great whites. Like I'd rather be in a pool with a great white than a bull shark.

[B]

You guys see me petting a bull shark? Shark. I sent him a picture of that.

[A]

A wild bull shark. Oh, yeah. Find this?

[B]

I sent it to you. Yeah, yeah, I got it.

[A]

Like a, like bull sharks and tiger sharks are like. I'm more terrified than of those things than anything. That's a tiger.

[B]

That's a big tiger.

[A]

Yeah. All right.

[B]

But the bull shark is this off.

[A]

The coast of Jupiter?

[B]

Yeah, that's a bull shark. Yep. So that's petable.

[A]

How did you guys get those bull sharks? Just.

[B]

Well, you chum, you know, you just chum up for sharks. Yeah.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

And yeah. Shout out. My buddy Michael Dornellis. He sadly passed away, but he took that photo. He's an amazing free diver. Amazing with sharks.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. But, but yes.

[A]

He didn't die like swimming with sharks, right?

[B]

Oh, no, no, no.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

No, no, it was drug related, sadly. Super, super sad. He was amazingly talented.

[A]

Guy, guy, really.

[B]

But he actually taught me a lot that I know about sharks. You know, I mean, he was really, really cool guy, but yeah, with the bulls. So a good story of like, how bulls work or like how a lot of predatory animals work in general. So we would do these drift dives with the bulls out there off of Jupiter. And like, at most, I think the most we've had in a day is like 50 of them at once. Like 50 bulls at once. And Sometimes just me and him out there, it's just us. And, you know, we're down there free diving up and down, you know. So you're just holding your breath down there. 50, 60ft deep.

[A]

How deep is it there? There?

[B]

Oh, that's at the ledge. That's like 110.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and so we're just up and down, hanging out with the bulls. And when we were in clear water, it's fine, you know, maintain eye contact with them. Don't act like prey. Don't flap around, don't splash. Be calm, be cool. Watch them, you know, that confidence, like I was just saying, you know, like, they pick up on that. And they're like, okay, this is like another predatory animal in our environment too, you know? And, like, when you have bait in the water like that, if you don't have struggling bait, they first come in. They'll come in hot because they, like, smell the blood and they're like, kill. And then they come in and their attitude will totally change, like, okay, this is like a scavenger situation, you know, because then they realize nothing's struggling. You're not struggling. There's nothing else is struggling. And their mindset will go from, like, kill mode to, like, scavenge mode, you know, Because, I mean, obviously sharks been scavenging off of whale carcasses and stuff like that for millions of years. So, like, they know that game. And then they know, like, okay, be chill. Like, we're just scavenging. We're picking up food. They see you, you're chill. They're like, oh, this is another thing. Scavenging the same thing. And so then you're just kind of chilling with them and they're not seeing you as prey anymore, you know? And then, like, they really become really calm. And it's. It's amazing to see, like, the attitude shift of, like, one individual shark because you see him coming hot, and then they understand. And then they're like, okay, this is not that bad, you know, and then like, boom, I'm sitting there petting one, you know, It's a wild bull shark. Never seen him before, you know, but then we're doing a drift dive that's in Clearwater, drifting into murky water. We get out of the water within, like, five minutes, right? They started getting bold immediately because they're very aware. They're so. They're so much smarter than people think. Like, they are aware of your awareness.

[A]

Visibility doesn't affect them.

[B]

Oh, no, it does.

[A]

Oh, it does.

[B]

So they're more Sensory. But then they also know you can't see them.

[A]

No, I'm saying the visibility. Poor visibility doesn't affect them negatively.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like it does for us.

[B]

So what it means is they're going to rely more in touch and they're going to rely more on electrosensory.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which means they have to be closer. So instead of using their eyesight in the clear water, now they're like, I gotta bump into this thing, you know, see what it is. And then they get more sketch.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and then you also. If one bumps you, you, You. You can't help but flinch. Right? And then when you flinch, they're like, are you struggling? You know, and it just. It changes so fast. And, like, literally the same group of sharks that were so chill 5 minutes ago drift into the Merc. They're not so chill anymore, you know? So a lot of, like, what happens in a human predator interaction depends so much on the environment. What is the human doing? What environment are you in? You know, in murky water. Stuff like that. Like, same with alligators and crocodiles. Like, that's what I was saying, being in murky water, them is so bad because they're not looking at you. They're feeling game, you know? And then they're gonna feel. They're gonna. They're gonna check it out with their teeth instead of looking and being like, what is this thing? No, they're just trying to see, you know, trying to feel.

[A]

I did this dot the shark dive once in the Bahamas. I forget. I think it was off Nassau. It was the only place that did these shark dives.

[B]

We were.

[A]

We were filming for this project we're working on, and there was this tour that basically puts you out in the reef. And they just. They lure in hundreds of reef sharks, and then you get in the middle of them and you're in a reef shark tornado.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is like, they say it's safe, but that is not safe. Dude. There's these. You're getting bombarded by sharks running it, ramming you from every angle. And if one of those decided to bite you, I think they would all do the same. I think they would all just rip you apart.

[B]

So we are just talking. I was talking to Steve before you got here. We were just literally talking about, like, the. When somebody with confidence says something is safe, everybody's like, oh, okay, cool. It's safe.

[A]

It's funny.

[B]

Nothing to worry about. So weird, bro. Like, I've worked in this industry forever, and so, like, I run my own tours. You know, I don't at the moment, so nobody emailed me because, like, I'm trying to build my sanctuary. So we don't have any tours at the moment. That's, like, my life thing right now. It's developing everything. But when I would run all these tours I've done for, like, 20 years, you know, I would see so many people are like, oh, with Chris, it's safe, you know? And I'm like, you got a lot of confidence in me for somebody you just met five minutes ago. But, you know, but then when I go and I travel and I'm somewhere else, and then I'm like, I'm not the guy now, and somebody else is the guy guy, you know? And they're like. And then they're talking. They don't know who I am. And I'm like, this guy's full of crap. Like, right. You know, I've just listened to this dude talking. I'm like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Like, and then all the other people who are there, just regular tourists, like, okay, okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Awesome. This guy really sounds like he knows it. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, my God, we're all gonna die.

[A]

This guy should lead somebody through battle. He could convince people to fight a war.

[B]

It's nuts.

[A]

Like, all human psychology, dude. Yeah, you can sit. Doesn't matter how big full of you are, as long as you say it with confidence, people will follow you.

[B]

People will follow you, man. You know, and so, like, I was telling Steve, like, I'll tell you this, like, little quick thing, because it was, like, really interesting. So I was. I was filming. I won't say the location just because I don't want to start any drama or, like, throw any at them. I was somewhere, and these other guys were in charge of everything, and they don't know who I am, you know? And we're filming some sharks on the bottom, some reef sharks at night. And we had been at that dive site during the day, and there were tigers cruising around on the edges, you know, like, and they were hunting, like, predatory hunting tigers. And.

[A]

Is this Florida?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But again, like, I. I don't want to, like, threw too much at them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But. Because they did some really stupid stuff, and some people got really messed up for it. Okay, but so, like, during the day, we saw tigers, you know, And I kind of was like, you guys don't really seem to pay much attention, the tigers, you know, like, ah, no, it's not a big deal.

[A]

So you Guys are down deep. Deep.

[B]

Yeah. The dive site's like 60ft.

[A]

And. And there's tigers above you.

[B]

Well, I'm getting there. Okay, so. So during the day, and these tigers are like. So normally, Normally almost all the interactions you would have with a shark, you know, it's like a regular person is either like, you know, you're surfing or something like that, or if you. Which usually I don't see me. The water's not that clear. Usually. It's usually because it's baited dive, you know, so like as a tourist person, it's a baited dive. The sharks are there for the bait. They're not there for you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and they're not actively. They're not really hunting. They're there because they want to pick up on that bait. Right? These, these sharks are actively hunting. There's no bait here. We're in a very. How do you want to say? There's a lot of life going on. There's a bird rookery. There's like really pristine reefs. So, like, they're not hunting people, you know, but they're hunting. Like there's activity everywhere. You're in a real wild ecosystem, you know. So I like told the guy, I'm like, you know, you guys don't really seem to pay that much attention. Oh, don't worry about it. Whatever. It's not a big deal, you know. And he's like trying. And I'm like, no, I think it's something you should worry about, you know? And the guy, like, kind of like, like made fun of me for it, you know, I'm like, okay, whatever. And then we go out at night and everybody's looking down at the reef with the lights, and I'm like, you know, I'm looking up. And then after the dive, you know, I'm like, you guys weren't looking up at all for tigers. We were just here during the day. There's. There's tigers everywhere. There's no tigers there at night. And I'm like, what do you mean they're not there at night? Like, for one. How do you know? Because you're looking down for one, you don't know. For two, there are like, I know there are, you know. And for three, how could you be so confident to say that they're not? Like, we're in the ocean, bro. There could be anything, you know. And like, I kind of got into it with this guy and we argued, you know, like he got a little heated, you know, because, like, I wasn't Gonna back down. Like, I know what I know, you know, and I know this guy's full of crap, right? And kind of got into it a little bit and then went back out there and he's like, they're not there. And I'm like, okay, watch. And we went out the next night again, they're all looking down. I looked up tiger right over our heads. No, it was right. It was like a 12, 13 foot tiger shark just right over our heads. If it wanted, somebody had him, you know, it just. Easy now. Thankfully, again, like we're not on their menu for the most part, you know. Like they really don't see us as prey for most part.

[A]

So like you're depends how hungry it is, right?

[B]

For the most part. Right. Don't act like prey, you know, so like we're not their normal prey. So thankfully don't see us as prey, you know. And I got back into the, you know, on the boat with the guy and I like, like really got in a fight with the guy, you know, like arguing with him about it and like, it, it didn't, you know, I, I kind of told him off, you know, whatever. Fast forward a month later. Like literally a month later, lady gets her leg ripped off right there. No, she dies.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

It was a tiger at night. It was actually during the day.

[A]

During the day.

[B]

So she had an uncontrolled ascent and so she was panicking and freaking out and it, it's a. So do you scuba dive?

[A]

I. Not lately, but yeah, I'm certified. I've scuba dived for a long. For like probably 20 years. I scuba dived.

[B]

So like when I was running tours, I was doing like scuba dive tours. I stopped doing them because there's too many people that got certified 30 years ago and they haven't been diving since. And they have the certs, so they get on the boat and everything. You don't. That dude has not been in the water for like 20, you know. Yeah, that happens all the time. So I just, I just, I move my tours like over towards more like just snorkel, you know, because you get. It's just too many people don't know what they're doing on scuba because they don't dive often.

[A]

I enjoy free diving more than scuba diving.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Scuba diving. There's too much equipment, too much stuff to remember. It's just. It's so much easier to remember how much air you have in your lungs. You know what I mean? And like, you know, you know your limits, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's too much that can go wrong with scuba diving. I remember one of the last times I was scuba diving was in the Cayman Islands. We were film, we're shooting for that same project I was telling you about with the sharks in Nassau. We went to the Caymans and we were, we were filming off this deep wall, this deep ledge that went, it went from like 150ft down to like over a thousand feet. And we were like on the edge of the ledge going through these caves, like up the side of it. We were completely surrounded by reef and rock like in this dark cave. And I'm filming. I have, I have a huge underwater camera in my hand and I'm like shooting and I'm not paying attention to any of my gauges and all of a sudden I suck my, and my tank dry.

[B]

I was like, that's the worst feeling in the world, isn't it?

[A]

And we're, we're 150ft down.

[B]

Oh. Oh no.

[A]

I have no air. I wasn't paying attention because I was.

[B]

You have multiple safety stops. Like.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah. And I, and I'm just like, because I'm only focusing on the camera. I'm so like focused on getting shots. I'm not paying attention to anything else. Luckily I got a guy in front of me and a guy behind me so I didn't even think of that though. I literally dropped my camera and I shot. I tried to shoot to the surface. I tried to go right through a hole. I got up maybe like 20ft. My buddy grabbed me by my ankle, pulled me down. Cuz I was like, I wasn't thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was able to breathe off his octopus until I had to do a safety stop obviously like at like 80ft.

[B]

Have you ever felt the expansion? Did you feel it?

[A]

I don't remember.

[B]

It's a horrible feeling.

[A]

I don't think I got up high enough. I don't think I. Luckily he grabbed my foot before I got too far. But if I would have, I'm sure I would have felt it.

[B]

It's, it's the weirdest. Like you just, you can't exhale enough. You're like. And it, you could feel your lungs starting to tear. It's the worst feeling. Oh my God. It's such a weird feeling too. Like really? You've been bent? No. Well, I mean that might have qualified. I, I've never been bent bad. If that would qualify. I don't, that probably wouldn't, but yeah, no, that's not, that's just what is that called? I can't remember, but. But yeah, just trying to exhale as hard as you can and you can't get it out fast enough and you just feel it. Like, it is such a weird feeling.

[A]

Yeah. I can't imagine. Manny. Manny was telling me he's been bent like five or six times.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Thankfully, I never have. That put the fear in me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I was like, I. I pay attention to my gauges. I watch everything.

[A]

That's the thing. That. That's why I don't like, that's. I'm not a fan of scuba diving because it's just, it's. It's. Don't get me wrong, it's fun as hell, like when you're really on top of your. And you know what you're doing. Like, it's. It's super fun, but like, for me, it's like paying attention to all that stuff, being up to date on everything. Also, you got to keep track of your gear. Like, if you scuba dive once a year, you got to check all your gear, make sure all your gear is still good. Kosher working fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's so much that can go wrong. There's so many, like, I've heard so many horror stories of scuba divers. It's just like, I just, you know, I feel more comfortable free diving. I know my own limits. I know what I can do. You know, people, shallow water, blackout a lot, but you gotta do with friends, make sure you have people around you watching you and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all that kind of stuff. So I gotta take a leak real quick. Oh, we'll jump right back in.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Have you seen that video of the guy in Egypt who got eaten by the shark?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That is the. I think that's the worst video that's ever been. Been. Ever been documented of a shark attacking somebody?

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was nasty.

[A]

That was that. I had nightmares about that for weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, one of the things about that place though, I think is that was. I heard that they were like disposing of goat carcasses or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Near there.

[B]

So that's what I heard. Something like that too. And like, again, like, you know, these are so they're intelligent animal. All animals are intelligent. You know, just right off the bat with like most like general public, people think animals are just stupid. It's an eating machine, you know, Like, I try to explain to people like, animals are smart. They're so much smarter than you think they are. And they get good at doing something and like, like with alligators, like we've had some 10 foot alligators that we catch and like we get them in their captivity for, for like a month or two, whatever, and then they like puke up a bunch of snail operculums. Like, you know, the, the, the thing that covers the, the snail, the snail's door, you know, so because they can't digest that thing that, the keratin in it.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But basically it just means that that's all that dude's been eating. Like, he's just been eating the crap out of snails because he learned snails are easy. That's an animal that could take down a huge other animal, you know, like it's a big predatory animal. But when they learn that they're good at something, they stick with it. Like, they're smart. And so a lot of animals, even within their own species, become specialists of something because they learn that they're good at it. Like you'll see the, the dolphins in the bay where they have one side of the teeth all ground down because they move the fish up against the shore and they get the fish like this.

[A]

I've never seen that.

[B]

Oh, it's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, you can look that up. Or the ones that do the bubble rings and trap the fish inside the bubble ring and then get them in there. So like. Yeah, it's really cool.

[A]

I've not seen that either.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, dolphins, there's lots of examples because they're just so smart.

[A]

I heard of dolphins getting high on puffer fish.

[B]

Yeah. So apparently that's off of like one instance, though. Oh, yeah. So it's like kind of blown a proportion.

[A]

Damn it.

[B]

But even in things like sharks and alligators, which are obviously not as intelligent as a dolphin, but they're still pretty smart. A lot more than you think. So like gators, like they will become good at something and then they stick to that thing. It's like a Gatorade. Your. There you go.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah, so they'll like do that and encircle the fish. Isn't that cool?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then just tighten it up. So like again, dolphins are really smart. You know, dolphins are fascinating even within gators and sharks. Like they become good at something. Like a lot of gators get really good at either catching, you know, they're.

[A]

Catching them in their mouth. That's wild.

[B]

There you go. Isn't that so cool? Yeah, that's so cool. But anyways, so I was just trying to say though, is there a lot of them are not just Like a generalist that kills everything they see. They get good at something and then that's like their thing and, like, they'll grab other stuff too, you know. But, like, in that instance, like, that shark came across carcasses over and over and over, and he's like, bro, this is my thing.

[A]

Thing. Yeah.

[B]

Like, this is awesome. I'm gonna do this all the time. I'm gonna get good at this. And so he's probably searching that area all the time. Like, that looks like another carcass, you know? You know what I mean? So, like, thankfully, again, they don't usually see people as prey. We're not, you know, like, when we're in the water, we're so unlike everything else. There's nothing comparable, you know, Unless we're talking like, Nile crocs in Africa. Then you are comparable. That's a species that is really good at hitting things that are big, mammalian. On the bank. Bank. So when you're the dude on the bank, you're fitting the bill.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

So also, that shark that killed that kid was pregnant, I think, because they. They immediately found it and killed it and cut its belly up. It was. Thing had hundreds of little baby sharks in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which you find a hungry pregnant female tiger shark. And I don't think that's a good situation, no matter what's going on.

[B]

Well, so, like. Like, I was. I was talking to Steve before just about tigers in general. Like, tigers are like. I mean, that is a real apex predator, you know, like any shark. You know, Talking about lemon sharks, like, you know, like, a lemon's no joke, don't get me wrong. But like, a tiger's an apex man.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, like, it's a different level, you know? And like, they. Like, I've watched a tiger go right past a diver, like, during. During the baited dives. They're there for the bait. Like I was saying, you know, they're there for the bait. But the tigers, like, I mean, he's top of the food chain, so he's really opportunistic. You know, everybody's. They're all opportunistic. But, like, he's really. I watched a tiger go right past a dude, and the dude just kept on looking forward. He's like, oh, yeah, because there's a couple of them goes right past the guy. He didn't turn and watch it. And that tiger's like, you're not looking at me. Grabbed him right by the tank and just lifted the dude up off the bottom. I watched it happen, you know, and then like the guy fight and the tiger's like, okay. And then he's like, no big deal because he's not afraid of you. Like, you know, it's a different kind of level.

[A]

He just like swam off.

[B]

I know he just circled back for the bait again, you know, it's like the tiger, like, like he doesn't necessarily respect you at the same level that like 11. You know what I mean? Or, or even the bulls, you know, like, bulls are, Bulls are more shy than what people would think. Like, they're more afraid. Like, they're a lot more afraid than what people would think.

[A]

Really.

[B]

They're pretty quick to take off, you know, like you can. I don't know for a better word. I say this all the time. Like you can offend them pretty easily, you know, and they, they just, they zip off really fast, you know. But like. And I mean, depending on the situation. Again, they're intelligent. So like that tiger, in that instance, he's around divers all day. It's at one of the feeding spots where they do the tourism stuff. He's so used to people, right? When we get like, we could tell, we do a shark dive, we'll get a tiger. Like, that's a wild tiger that like, does not interact with people. You can tell by the way it acts. It comes in very zippy. It's. It's more nervous, you know, like, you can really tell, like this is a shark that's habituated towards people and has done this game before. And this is one that's like actually wild.

[A]

What? Have you seen the girl in Hawaii that makes the videos with the tiger sharks?

[B]

Yeah, ocean.

[A]

Her name's.

[B]

Yeah, she came to my gator tour.

[A]

Oh, really? Those videos are absolutely insane. Swimming with those giant tigers and.

[B]

Or the great whites, the ones you've seen with the white sharks.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I've seen her with the white. Yeah, she's like, she swims down. It's not the same though. Like the. She gets really intimate with those tigers.

[B]

I feel like, well, the tigers once, you know, because again, they're an apex predator. Once they kind of learn the game and they're like, we're getting fed and you're not really my prey. They're pretty comfortable and chill.

[A]

Those are some well fed tiger sharks. You can tell when you look at them. Yeah, those things are fat.

[B]

They're big, man. But it's kind of like the dichotomy of like, well, they're big and they're chill, but Then also just keeping in mind the whole time that like it is a big predatory animal that can change his mind, you know, and that can recognize like, you know, I can take advantage of the situation.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So like one time I was diving with wild tigers that are not habituated towards being fed by people and I was just kind of like messing around. So I wanted, I was like, you know, it's, it's scared of me. I could tell we have no bait. It's scared of me. And I'm like, I wonder if I can get it to see me as prey. So I started trying to purposefully act like prey just to see what he's going to do. Cuz like I've handled tigers a lot in these baited situations. I've had him get, get frisky with me and grab them by the nose, flip them, I've done all that stuff. So like I know how to handle them, you know. And so I'm like, I'm gonna push the envelope a little bit and see what he's gonna do. So. And again, there's, there's no bait here. And like. Yeah, Yep. So like I've done, I could send you a photo. I, I've done stuff like that, you know, like I know how to interact with them and grab them by the nose and flip them and all that kind of stuff. So like with this one, but it was wild, there's no bait. So I started and I was on free dive, so I started shooting down and then just rocketing up and it was about 60ft and I just go as fast as I could. Like just cuz that makes it look like you're running, you know, so you're running away. Never run away from a predator, you know. So I'm doing everything you shouldn't do because I want to investigate the behavior.

[A]

That'S safe to do that, to swim with that super fast going 60ft down.

[B]

Yeah. Free dive.

[A]

Yeah. Really?

[B]

Yeah, because you have your air. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. Cuz you're taking the air from the surface down with you. So if you were on compressed air. God no, you're. Yeah, you're going to get an air embolism. Kill yourself if you're in scuba.

[A]

Wow. I didn't know even if you were free diving. I thought because even when I free dive, I try not to come up faster than my own bubble holes.

[B]

Oh no, you can rock it. Yeah.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

Because you're taking the same air. You're taking the air from the top.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Bringing it down it's pressurized and then you're going back up with it instead of breathing pressurized air down there and then. Yeah, so that's where the expansion causes a problem.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, no, now I'm thinking of something. So one time, one time, me and my buddy, we free dove down into this sunken ship and there was a submarine decompression chamber on the, on the bow of the ship, which was like, like 70ft down. And we swam into it and there was air in it. Oh, and we were breath. We're hanging out and they're breathing the air.

[B]

And that's your problem.

[A]

And he's like, he's like, don't swim up faster than your bubbles. Yeah, we were swimming up. Yeah, that's probably why. Cuz that was different air.

[B]

Yep, exactly. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, but so I want to get this tiger to like, see me as prey on purpose.

[A]

You.

[B]

And again, like, never do this, you know, Like, I'm trying to like, say, don't ever do this, you know, but like, I, I, again, I, I've done this a lot. I know these animals. I know how they think and how to handle them. So I started rocking it up and you saw this tiger, like, starts to like, like, you know, certainly like kind of eyeball me a little bit. And, and then it followed me a little bit up to the surface and I'm like, oh, he's. He's hooked. He's hooked. Like he's investigating. So then I got up on the surface and I just started swimming as hard as I could with just one arm, like doing the wounded sea turtle in a circle. And it just, you could just see the gears turning, this dude's head and just clicked in and just right up me, you know, And I mean, it's big. It's probably like a 12 tiger.

[A]

So what, what the. Why would you do that?

[B]

Well, I get that's what I was saying. Like, this is kind of the stuff that I do is like investigating the behavior because, like, I want to understand how he thinks. Like, how does this animal think? How does it work? What exactly is going to trigger it to start to see me as prey? Because I'm not its prey.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And at first it had no interest in me. Yeah. I mean, a little bit it's looking at you. You know, they're always a little bit interested, they're a little curious. But I want to see what is it, what actions are going to make it actually see me as prey. Because I'm, I know how to work this situation in these Animals. I can do this investigation and then I'm able to teach people. Don't do this.

[A]

How are you still alive? Alive?

[B]

Well, again, because it came right up my fins and came right by me. And so I just flipped around underwater and pushed him by the nose. You know he's gonna try to bite.

[A]

Was he charging?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's flying at full predatory.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

[A]

Is this on video?

[B]

No.

[A]

Holy crap, dude.

[B]

I got. I was shooting photos, so I have, like, not a great camera. I got photos of it, like, zipping up behind me. I got my bubble trail and everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I got them right up at my fins, you know.

[A]

And where was the. This.

[B]

That was in Costa Rica.

[A]

Costa. Costa Rica? There's tiger sharks in Costa Rica. Holy crap. Dude, I didn't know there was tiger.

[B]

Sharks in Costa Rica. That's nuts. I mean, they're Atlantic, Pacific. Yeah, I mean, I thought that.

[A]

Yeah, they're.

[B]

They're pretty much everywhere.

[A]

Yeah, I just. I guess you don't really hear about too many sharks in Costa Rica for some reason. I don't know. Maybe that's just me.

[B]

No, there's a lot of mountain there, huh?

[A]

What is that? Is that a great white?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that. Is that her ocean?

[B]

Yeah, that's great white.

[A]

Oh, is this in Hawaii?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, see, they're just. They're not that scary to me. They're just like big, slow, fat.

[B]

Look at the dolphins.

[A]

Dolphins are just like chilling below that thing. Is. Is that thing pregnant?

[B]

I think so. Sure looks like it.

[A]

Yeah. That's a big. Good lord.

[B]

Pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, man. That's wild. That girl's. That girl's nuts.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. I want to get out there. I got. I dove with great whites in Mexico. Uhhuh. As in the cage. So we slept the guy in extra for a little bit of money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or they did. Now they shut it down totally over there. I'm not sure why. Actually, I have heard supposedly, maybe it's because they want to be able to let. They don't want people around because they're getting paid off to let in the Chinese fishing vessels. No, I heard. I don't know. I. That's total hearsay. But I have heard people say that in Mexico. That would be really sad if they did. Yeah, Mexico has amazing diet diving.

[A]

Yeah, no, I've heard. I've heard. I've heard stories of Mexico, of Mexican diving being good, but. Yeah, that's. That's. That's crazy. I had no idea that Chinese fishing companies were, like, all up and down.

[B]

It's a big problem. The West Coast, It's a big problem, man. They're just. They're everywhere, like. And if you're not going to stop them militarily, then they're not going to respect that law. They're not going to respect that boundary at all. Like, they do not care.

[A]

Is Costa Rica the only country over there on the coast that doesn't have a military?

[B]

I'm pretty sure. Sure.

[A]

And then they would. I'm sure they strike deals with the other countries that do. To let them in their waters. Right. Like you just alluded to in Mexico.

[B]

Well, Costa Rica is generally pretty good about their conservation of their animals, you know, I mean, especially mainland, they definitely have slacked a lot on shark protection, you know, like, but for the most part, like, I mean, they're really good at protecting everything going on. On. On the mainland, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I spent a lot of time there. I got. I mean, put it this way, I got yelled at by a guy for using flash photography on his snake.

[A]

Snake. Really?

[B]

Yeah. I was like, bro, it's fine, you know.

[A]

Wow. Do you. Do you mess around with a lot of other different species around Florida? Like, like, do you mess around with, like, snakes and iguanas?

[B]

Yeah, I got some pythons if you want to see that. I. I sent him some photos. I used to do the python catching out in the Everglades. Or the black mamba.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy how many snakes are in Florida. Florida.

[B]

Yeah. Florida is really, really good for snakes. Yes. I was a black mamba. Oh, the hippos. That was cool.

[A]

Is that in Africa?

[B]

Yeah, that was in Botswana. I sent you some huge pythons to the right at the end.

[A]

Yeah. So many of them.

[B]

Oh, that's a good shark.

[A]

One go. There we go. Wow.

[B]

Dude, that one's a bushmaster in the Amazon. It's the largest viper in the world.

[A]

Oh, that's in the Amazon.

[B]

Yeah, I. Well, since I started the sanctuary, I.

[A]

You're wearing flip flops in the Amazon, so.

[B]

Funny story. I do not recommend that. What happened is my boots got, like, messed up, like, in the plane somehow, and then they were, like, bent and it made my tonneau fell off. Oh, like. Yeah, my whole toe. My big toe, like, turned purple. The toenail fell off. So then I ended up doing the sandals. I hiked, I'm not kidding, literally 50 miles in the Amazon in sandals, that is. And I caught that thing.

[A]

Nuts.

[B]

That's. That's like A ten foot bush.

[A]

What country is that?

[B]

That was in Peru.

[A]

In Peru? No way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dude, I've heard so many crazy stories about the Amazon. I want to go down there so bad.

[B]

Do it. It's amazing how.

[A]

Okay, what is the difference? Because I've never really understood this between the cayman in the Amazon and like the crocodiles here.

[B]

So cayman are in the alligator Tori family. So they're actually more closely related to an alligator than a crocodile. Crocodile. So like when you look at a black cayman, you can see it like a black cayman looks more like an alligator, but when you look at like spectacle cayman or dwarf cayman, they look more crocodile like, even though they're actually more closely related to an alligator. Right, but yeah, but down there. So most of South America has cayman. In northern South America you get some American crocodiles too.

[A]

Are they super aggressive or. No, the cayman. Yeah.

[B]

So most cayman are smaller. They're on the smaller side. The big one is the black cayman. Black cayman can get like 15ft. They do get big. There are some reports of them grabbing people, but they're generally again, generally not interested in people very much like an alligator. They're, you know, obviously alligators occasionally get somebody, but we're really not on their menu, you know. And then the other cayman species are smaller. They're super defensive. So like if you're trying to catch one, like I do like handling wise, like 10 foot alligator is easier to like hand catching at a 6 foot Cayman. Like a spectacle cayman. They're lightning fast.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, they're scary, man. They're so fast and strong. They're like. Yeah.

[A]

And the difference between. So I. The way I heard you explaining this on that other podcast I was listen to. I can't remember the name of that podcast. I wish I did so I could shout them out. But you guys were explaining how alligators and crocodiles don't necessarily. And I might be messing this up, but they don't necessarily come from the same ancestor.

[B]

No, they do. They share a common ancestor.

[A]

They do share a common ancestor.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So really weird. So really weird is that an alligator. Crocodile is more closely related to a bird than a lizard. Wrap your head around that for a minute.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, so because their common ancestor would be archosaurs. So archosaurs diverged into like. Oh my God, I'm going to start butchering names here because this all gets like very hard to pronounce names. Anyways, Archosaurs branched off to what we have crocodilians and archosaurs. Archosaurs yeah, and then dinosaurs. And then, you know, as we know, all dinosaurs went extinct or evolved into birds. And then so later on what we have are actual like reptiles as we know them come so much later in time. So because they're so much later in time, like the common ancestor of crocodilians and birds is the archosaur. So really they're, they are literally closer to each other than they are to like Liz lizard. It's really weird stuff. Yeah.

[A]

So. So alligators and crocodiles aren't. They weren't around when the dinosaurs were around?

[B]

No, they, they were, but they, they had. So. Okay, this is gonna get way complicated. We need. Okay, we need a graph on this.

[A]

Okay. See, you might be able to find something.

[B]

Yeah, no, you definitely could. So you would have like, like, let's say there's archosaurs are down here and then it like splits off and then we have the crocodilians as they're going through time. And then dinosaurs as we know them evolve up here. And so they're taking place in the same, same time space, but they have the common ancestor down here, you know, and then as we keep on going, the crocodilians keep on going to present day dinosaurs, asteroid hits. They either go extinct or evolve into birds as we have them today.

[A]

Right. Oh, that's a good graph.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Telecrater, birdline, archosaurs. Okay, so the bottom of it is the archosaur ruling reptiles. Then you have on one on the right, right hand side of it is the bird line of them, which then goes to dinomorphs, dinosaumorphs, then dinosaurs, then birds. And on the left side we have crocodilians.

[B]

Yeah, really cool. Weird stuff.

[A]

God, dude, evolution is so bananas.

[B]

Okay, here's those bananas. You know, crocodilians, like what you would call a crocodile has evolved independently multiple times. Like look up a phytosaur. P H Y T O S A U R U S. That's not a crocodile. That evolved independently of the crocodilian line.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Isn't that nuts?

[A]

Yeah. How does something like that.

[B]

The nostrils are up there by the eyes instead of at the end of the snout.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah. All right, now you really want to. So this is cool because this is what we're talking about, crocodilian wise. But if you really want to throw your brain for a loop, look up how many times crabs have evolved. This is going to really mess you.

[A]

Up how many times crabs have evolved.

[B]

So like all those Things.

[A]

Crab like creatures have evolved. Oh, sorry. Crab like creatures have evolved at least five times. According to Scientific American. The process is called carcinization.

[B]

Yeah. So all roads lead to crab. Oh yeah.

[A]

The body.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

The body of a crab has. Has evolved independently.

[B]

Yeah, independently. So those things are not related to each other, even though they like all look the same.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So like, that's why they say peak evolution on earth is crab. All roads lead to crab.

[A]

So eventually we're gonna look like crabs.

[B]

That's. Dude, it's so weird. Yeah. So you have these, these cases of convergent evolution. Like we know they're not related and they end up going to the same body type. It's so weird. Weird.

[A]

That is really crazy. But how the hell would we end up looking like crabs?

[B]

Well, I don't think we will. Yeah, I mean, it's environmental pressures and we have been able to supersede our environmental pressures with technology, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We are likely not going to. But you never know, man.

[A]

Yeah, you never know.

[B]

Is that so weird though?

[A]

That is super strange. You know, there are like so many crap. There's so many different types of crap. Crabs. That's interesting. And crabs can. They also can regenerate their. Their claws, which is crazy. That is bizarre.

[B]

Yeah, there's some weird stuff, man.

[A]

Yeah. And another interesting thing about the crocodiles and the alligators that you guys were explaining on the. The name of that podcast was Juggernaut, by the way.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So they were. They were. The girl was explaining how. Or maybe it was you. That the alligators only have these specific scales on their heads that can sense movement and pressure and all kinds of things. And that the crocodiles have them all over their body.

[B]

That's right. So it's called integumentary sensory organ. So it's a little tiny dome pressure sensor. And so gators will have them just along the face and the jawline and so they can detect movement in the water, you know, much like a lateral line in a fish. So in really murky water, they feel that movement. They know where to snap. Meanwhile, crocodiles will have them across the entirety of the body. And then like other. So you can see the little black dots. Hey, that's my video. Bottom right.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Who stole that?

[A]

Tik tok.

[B]

So blurry. What?

[A]

Go to that.

[B]

Yeah, cuz they stole it.

[A]

Go to that photo.

[B]

Dude, my stuff gets stolen constantly.

[A]

Go to find a close up of the skin. Steve. It was like above there. There you go. No, yeah, on the left. Bottom left. Left. So like that, can you see them there? Yeah, hold on.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

There you go. Look at that.

[B]

Yeah. So the little black dots.

[A]

So they have, so gator or crocs have those all over their skin and those are like super sensors.

[B]

Yep. So they have been shown to be 10 times as sensitive as a human fingertip. That's crazy, dude. Is that nuts? So like really, really, really crazy. Cool.

[A]

And what is the lifespan of a, of a crocodile?

[B]

That's a good question. So you really want to do we know that's, that's a good question. So generally speaking you would normally say, oh yeah, they can get up to 80 years or 100 years or something like that. But in order to know how old something is, you either need a diagnostic on the animal, be able to tell the age, which they don't have, they continue to grow. And so like you can't check their teeth. They shed their teeth and replace them throughout their life. So a lot of animals, you check their teeth. Right. You can't do that with them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't. Apparently you can't check their bones. That doesn't work either. You can do that with some, some. So we don't have a way to tell how old an alligator is just by looking at it or even by cutting, open, dissecting. So there's no way to know. So the only way you would know how old it is, you would have to have a record of when it hatched out of the egg. And then you would have to have that record keeping methodology going for longer than their lifespan is. And we know they can get over a hundred years and we don't have any record taking methodologies that have been going on for over a hundred years.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

So isn't that wild?

[A]

That is crazy.

[B]

So like the oldest supposed one is this big crocodile named Henry who's supposedly like 120 years old.

[A]

And they tracked his hatch.

[B]

Yeah. So he's supposedly 120. But that also like when you look at, you can look him up. If you look him up. You couldn't tell me that croc's not 50. You couldn't tell me their croc's not 200.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't, that's what, you can't tell. That's what I'm saying. So it's just wild.

[A]

Henry is a Nile crocodile who's believed to be the oldest living crocodile in captivity. Born in the night. Born in 1900 in Botswana.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jesus Christ, dude.

[B]

So then you have, you have records.

[A]

Dude, those Nile crocs Are so crazy looking.

[B]

Yeah. So then you have, like, indigenous people who have records of animals that are supposedly, you know, like over 200 years old. And people just write it off because it's like, oh, what do you know? You can't even read, you know, it's like. Yeah, but those people have a generational knowledge you don't know about. And when you're dealing with an animal that lives beyond what a human's lifespan is, is, you have to have that knowledge of multiple generations, you know, so like, so there are claims. Oh, that's Dingo right there. That guy. That's Dingo Nickelman. He just passed away very sadly.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah, so he's. He's a really awesome reptile guy. Obviously works with crocs. He was really famous for working with snakes. And. Yeah, he got bit and sadly passed.

[A]

Away by a crocodile.

[B]

Oh, no, no, by a mamba.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah. And he's. He's actually allergic. Allergic to the. Oh, man, the venom. I think that he was allergic to the anti venom, I think.

[A]

Oh, the anti venom.

[B]

Or maybe even the venom too. I'm messing it up, man, because I honestly, like, I know him personally or knew him. And so, like, when he passed, like, I kind of purposefully didn't read into it that much because it made me really sad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I don't want to, like, misquote it, but I'm also, like, it just really upset me, obviously. So, like, I know he was allergic and I didn't really.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Look it up a lot because it's just. Just makes it upset, you know.

[A]

God, that sucks.

[B]

But he was an awesome dude. Super, super, super nice. We see like in a lot in the animal world of, like, animal people, like, everybody's kind of a jerk. There's so many egos, you know, like most people, like, because they're like, yeah, man, I'm the crocodile hunter. Like, so many of these guys have, like, such an ego. And like, he had no ego, man. He was so kind. He was so nice. Like, he'd just meet people like. Like, I. Like, I'm not going to name names and throw some shave. Like, a lot of these guys won't even give you the time of day, you know. Like, they think they are like, you know, crocodile Jesus. You know, it's just like they won't even talk to people, you know. They think they're so cool. A dingo would talk to everybody, you know. He was like, so enthusiastic, so excited. He was such a cool guy, man. Yeah, he's really really cool.

[A]

Dude, that's amazing. That. Have you heard, I'm sure you've heard of that, that story that happened in. I think it was during World War II of those crocodiles that massacred that island. Yeah, like the, it was called like the Matador. Operation Matador or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then forest was saying that they went there to film and there was just skulls everywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From the alligators just ate like hundreds of people. Yeah.

[B]

Crocs. Yeah. Crocodiles. Sal over there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was in Myanmar.

[A]

Myanmar. Yeah, that's what it was.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super. It was a crazy thing. Like they, the military force pushed them into the swamp and just held them at bay. Like, wouldn't let them get out out. And you just hear like through the night, they were camped out. They said that you would just hear random. Just scream. Gunshots, splash, silence.

[A]

Oh, my God, dude.

[B]

Yeah, not a good way to go.

[A]

So crazy, man, with your, with your new. With the Bella, what's it called? Bellowing Acres.

[B]

Bellowing Acres.

[A]

Bellowing Acres. So you are basically taking these crocodiles or these gators that people are calling in on that are going to get killed. And you're taking them and you're giving them like a safe haven to live and you're like raising them there.

[B]

Yeah. So I've only had the property for. We're coming up on two years now. And so basically I spent my whole 20s, literally, as a professional alligator wrestler. And I made my money and saved everything and I just put my whole life savings into creating this.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so, yeah, I, I'm putting. I'm all in, man. It's do or die here.

[A]

You, you, you grew up wrestling them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, literally, like, how the hell.

[A]

When did you first do that? What gave you the idea, like, I want to wrestle all.

[B]

Well, you start small, you know, so like as a kid, like, I wasn't like jumping on 10 foot alligators when I was a kid, but I was, you know, catching smaller ones and whatnot, you know, and I catch lizards and snakes and fry all that kind of stuff, you know, and like baby gators. And then as I got bigger, I could catch bigger ones and like, so, you know, kind of moved up the food chain, so to speak, and then literally spent like all my twenties as a literal professional alligator wrestler. And like, when I first.

[A]

How do you become a professional alligator wrestler?

[B]

So I will say, why? Yeah, so I'll say why? Well, for one, I say, you could say professional because that was my main source of income. Income.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and I did it for. For so long. But then also because, like, when I first started doing it, it was literally, like. It was like. It was like some Coliseum stuff, dude. It was like, literal, like, gladiator man.

[A]

Versus WWE type stuff.

[B]

No, no, no. I meant, like, like, your life is on the line. He's trying to kill you.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

For sure. Like, for. Well, I say that because eventually I learned to train them and I learned their intelligent, but I didn't know that at first, you know, like. And so, like, when I first started at it, it was man versus beast, you know, like, you're diving on its back, it's spinning around, trying to rip your head off, and you're literally fighting for your life of, like, you know, 200 people. And when you got a good crowd, it was pretty awesome, not going to lie. Like, you were like a legitimate gladiator. And then you had to do the same show with the same alligator for, like, two foreign guys from Europe that don't tip and don't speak English. And you're like, I'm going to die. And they don't even know what I'm saying. Like, it was rough, but you're making this face like, I'm crazy right now.

[A]

This is crazy.

[B]

Yeah. No, I'm not.

[A]

So people are paying you to wrestle and just watch you wrestle a massive alligator?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, here's the kicker. A lot of the. I've worked at a lot of different places. A lot of them don't pay you because of insurance. So the only money you make is tips. So. Yeah. Huh? Yeah. Tell me that's not a scam and a half. So, like, I would literally be doing a show, and, like, if you're good. And I was. I was good. And, like, so if you're good, you can make decent money on tips. If you got a good crowd, then you got to do the same show for the next crowd. And, like, you get a bunch of dudes from Norway that don't speak English. And tipping is not in their culture. Culture, Right. And you're like, you're just screwed, man. You just. Literally, I would do a whole show for free, and you're just like, was.

[A]

This, like, on your own or were you part of some big, like, park or something?

[B]

It was part of these parks. I've worked at quite a few different parks.

[A]

Oh, okay, I see.

[B]

And. But so, like, when I started, it was like, these gladiator shows, it was nuts. But then, like, I realized, like, and the thing too, is, like, there's no like gator, you like there's no one teaching you how to do this stuff. So like I'm self taught, like I figured out on my own, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I realized like, you know, these animals are a lot more intelligent than we think. And they started working on like training them and like habituating them. And then, then eventually my show evolved from like a man versus to a man with beast, like working with the animal. And I got the gators like because again they're wild caught alligators. Like I didn't raise any of them, you know, like we. Sometimes you get them in like that day, you know, that kind of thing. But then once I learned I could work with them, I can train them, I get them to understand I'm not going to hurt them, you know, and I can teach them their names, they come when they're called. And I got these gators so calm where like I literally go in, pick up this like alligator, like a nine foot alligator. Carry it out of. And he's letting me, right? Yeah. You see some of the foot, you.

[A]

Know, that's nuts, dude.

[B]

So that's trained behavior.

[A]

These guys are used to you though.

[B]

Yeah, but that's teaching them that you're not a threat, you're not going to hurt them. It's because they're intelligent, you know. And then I would carry the alligator out and then I would talk about it and do an educational show. And then I realized I made more money making it into a comedy show than making it like a, you know, you're going to die show.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so like my whole, my whole Persona basically evolved on like how I approach this whole thing. It's really cool, you know. And again, once you understand their intelligent, like you work with them, not against them, you know, and it's better for you, it's better for the animal because that animal's trying to kill you. Not because it's aggressive, but because it's afraid of you. You're jumping on, you know, that's crazy, dude.

[A]

You're letting that thing. You're freaking open its mouth right on your head.

[B]

Oh, I sent him quite a few photos that are pretty crazy looking like that.

[A]

Good lord.

[B]

But, but here's the thing. So when you look at that, what's important to understand is that animal is trained, it is not tamed, it is not domesticated. I did not raise him from a baby. He's not well fed. Before I interact with them at all. No, no, because it doesn't matter.

[A]

You don't have, like, a little bit better of a chance if it's. If it's full.

[B]

So I've literally watched them. I'll tell you. I've literally watched them. One of the parks I used to work at, they would back up a truck full of meat and dump it in. In there, and you would watch them come up. And they'll eat, and they'll eat and they'll eat until they puke, and then they eat the puke back up. Oh, they literally will eat. They are always hungry. They always want more food, man. So, like, will they slow down when. Yes, it slows down? Like, I'm not going to say. Like, it doesn't make any difference, but they will definitely bite the hand that feeds, rip it off, and swallow it in front of your face. Like, they don't care about you.

[A]

But they do get lazy, right?

[B]

Yes. It's not. Yeah, so it is. It is like.

[A]

It's like the famous, like, joke about alligators at Busch Gardens. Like, you just. The truck backs up, someone grabs a pitchfork and starts slinging chickens into the. Into the pit of alligators. The alligators don't even move. They just go.

[B]

So. But that's not laziness, is intelligence.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That's realizing that's the easiest way.

[A]

Right. They're not wasting their energy.

[B]

But at the same time, that same gator, if you were walking by and you tripped and fell next to his face, it's going to grab you. It's not tame, you know, and that's what I really try to drill home. Like, like, you know that alligator. You know, all the other alligators I work with, like, you know, I can work with them very close. I understand them, and I train them again, but, like, they're not pets. You know, I drill this home, like I said, it's like, I should put it on my T shirt. They're trained. They're not tame, they're not pets. And, like, if you mess up, they will grab you. And my best example of this and, like, why I say this all the time, one of the parks I worked at, there was a male and female that were there together, and they were there way before I was there. So, like, 20 years or something. Male and female. The male is way bigger than the female female. So if he wanted to, he could easily kill her, right? If he wanted to. And you're getting distracted every.

[A]

You're crazy, dude. You're nuts.

[B]

No, but. But listen to this. This is important. So, you know they're husband and wife alligators, right? They're together, they have sex. You know, all that. I'm making the claim that their bond is greater than my bond with them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Obviously, he cares more about her than he would ever care about me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Doesn't matter from the food source. That's how he gets laid. He likes her more than he likes me. Me. One day, I saw it happen. She had a seizure. I was very sad. She had a seizure. She flipped in the water like this and started twitching. And. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. No. And it was like from here to like, you know, the door over there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Before I could physically get that far, he was eating her. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. Protected.

[A]

But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back.

[B]

Save up to 40% your first year.

[A]

Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply. What?

[B]

That's what I'm saying when I tell you they don't love you, they don't bond to you, they do not care about you. You like that's that what I'm saying. So that's why, like, I drill this home to people because everybody's like, oh, it's safe. It knows you. It knows you. It won't hurt you. And I'm like, it will if you mess up. Because he killed her.

[A]

God, dude. It's like the ultimate archetype of a reptilian is just, you know, they're. They're synonymous with just like evil, right? In. In all stories.

[B]

I hate that in stories.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Well, no, A lack of emotions, emotion.

[A]

It's not yet. Right. He's got you explain it. It's not right. It's not necessarily. It's what we as human beings evolve the story of evil, right? And that's how we. We inject that into stories that we can understand. But. Yeah, well, the way you just explained that is like, it's a lack of all empathy, emotion.

[B]

But. But here's the thing. It's because she had a seizure. He could have killed her any moment. He has all the power. He's twice her size. If he wanted to kill, kill her, no contest. She has no ability to defend herself against an animal that size. So if he wanted to kill her, he would have killed her. It's only because she was no longer herself, you know, she had a seizure, so now you are no longer you.

[A]

Or was it because she was no longer valuable to him alive?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's part of it too, you know, but like evil, I would say evil is inflecting pain on something else because you enjoy it. You know what I mean? Like, like he doesn't enjoy that. It's, are you useful or not? You know, like value do you have to me now, right? You know, you don't have value. Okay, then that's it. You're done.

[A]

Right. You know, but like, to humans, that is the most terrifying idea. That's the most terrifying archetype of something as a psychopath. Exactly. It's exactly what it is.

[B]

But again, I, I, I want to make it clear I don't count that.

[A]

As evil because, like, no, no, I, Yeah, you're right. It's fine.

[B]

People torture people. That's evil.

[A]

That is evil.

[B]

People torture animals. Yeah. They're finding joy through something else's suffering. These animals have no joy in watching you suffer. In fact, they don't. I would, I would even say, like, for most predatory animals, they don't want you to suffer. Like, they want it over with quickly because the faster you're dead, the faster they can eat you, the faster it's over with so something else doesn't come and steal the kill, you know, I.

[A]

Can'T imagine what was going through your mind when you were going, trying to save this alligator. All of a sudden, the other one just starts eating it.

[B]

Yeah, it was sad. It's just like as a human, you find you're horrified, you know, but then, like, you know, you can pull up the stories of people who die and they're doggies eats them. People say the whole time, what? Pull it up.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Pull it up.

[A]

There are stories of people dying in their pets. Eating them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I mean, you know, think about who you're on a, who you're on a plane with in case it goes down. You know that story?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we know that story. Well, you know. Yeah, survival. I mean, when it comes down to survival.

[B]

But even things that like owner dies, pets eat them.

[A]

While it is a disturbing thought, there are documented cases where dogs have scavenged on their deceased owners, particularly when left alone without food. Food, Right. Oh, it's a, not, not a common.

[B]

Occurrence, but we think of the dogs as man's best friend. They would never do that. Right. People say that all the time. Like, yeah, well, if you.

[A]

I mean, that's different than like, if you die and your dog has nothing to eat for weeks. And it's like, okay, there's this rotting flesh carcass here. I'm going to eat that. But like, the second the thing starts having a seizure.

[B]

Well, here's the thing. It's just one is realizing you're no longer you faster.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's. It's messed up, but I mean, that's, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, no, he knows you're not you anymore, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's pretty wild. It's pretty sketchy. But that's why, like, I'm always so clear about it when I'm like, no, bro, like, they're still predators. They will still bite you if you make a mistake. They'll still kill you. Yeah, like, you know, didn't.

[A]

Did I hear you right? You said there's like a reptilian dolphin?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Isn't that so weird and cool? So what's it called? Oh my God. I know it.

[A]

It's a reptilian dolphin.

[B]

If, I mean, he could pull it up.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Ichthyosaur.

[A]

Is it still. It's not around any.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. But it's really cool. Ichthyosaur.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So Ichthyosaur Liter. Ichthy fish. Sore lizard. Fish. Lizard.

[A]

You know, it's so crazy that like, there's so many aquatic animals that aren't around anymore that. That went away with the dinosaurs because, you know, a lot of aquatic animals lived, like sharks and gators and crocodiles, but like, it's just, it's, you know, it's interesting to think about, like, why some species died off and why some didn't like this.

[B]

So, I mean, obviously we have multiple cataclysmic events on the planet. You know, mass extinction events, asteroid impacts, stuff like that.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's usually what it is, is. But here's a really weird, cool topic. So, like, you like UFOs, right? It's all the UFOs. I love UFOs. Okay, so convergent evolution. We have multiple cases of unrelated animals finding the same body type repeatedly throughout history. They have no relation to each other, really. You know, and like reptile dolphins, mammalian dolphins, you know, crocodiles, phytosaurs, all this kind of stuff. Have you heard that, like, there is a body type type plan in our DNA that makes us go towards an end goal of like an alien life form?

[A]

A body Type plan in our DNA.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So like, that makes us go towards an alien life form.

[B]

Like, well, what we would consider to be an alien life form. But like, so the idea is like in your DNA, in your genetics, there is like this plan that given enough time, all roads lead to crab. Like that kind of idea. Idea, you know, so like, we will eventually become, no matter what, you're going to become like a gray, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's, there's this.

[B]

Well, that's what gives a credence because we have multiple examples of this. You know, like, all roads lead to crab. All roads lead to being a gray alien. You know, it's just a fun thought.

[A]

Yeah, no, I had it. We had Mike Masters on here, who is an anthropologist. He was explaining that there. He, he did this study on ch chimps and how there's this phenomenon called pedomorphism where basically chimp, adolescent chimps look more like humans. Right? So, so like the babies, the babies of hominids look more and more like fully, fully adult hominids extrapolated into the future. So like, so a baby chimp, if you look at a baby chimp, it looks more like weed do, Right? It's, it sits straight. It's got a, it's got a perfectly round head. It doesn't have this huge protruding jaw and the slanted forehead. Yeah, right there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So a baby chimp looks more like human beings, which are way more evolved than they. When they are. And when they get to adolescence, look how their jaw portrudes, their head slants back, their neck kind of goes forward. So like, the idea is if you take that and extrapolate, take us right with that model, our fully grown adults are going to look like the toddlers of today. And that's how people explain gray aliens looking like kids. Like short little toddler look at things.

[B]

All right, so here's, here's. We're gonna blow your mind. Okay, so I've thought about this too. And so this comes to domestication associated with neoteny. So neoteni is, is the retention of juvenile traits as an adult. And so that's just like this kind of stuff, right? Yeah, so that is heavily associated with domestication. So when we domesticate an animal, they become cuter. So like. Yeah, and so like the domesticated version of an animal is always cuter, even if we're not selecting for cuteness. So like, if you select for docility, like this fox experiment in Russia, they, they were trying to see how fast you can domesticate foxes purposefully. So like, domestication just to give, like. So people understand. Domestication is a process whereby you selectively breed an animal for treats that you want. Yes, across many generations. So that's why.

[A]

Right.

[B]

An alligator I have that was caught out of the wild will never be domesticated because domestication is literally genetic engineering through selective breeding. Okay, so like, one animal cannot become domesticated in his lifetime. That's not proper use of that term. So, so could we domesticate alligators? Yes, we could, if we did it, you know, many generations. Anyways, so we see through domestication a lot of these traits come out of being like, cute, fluffy, bigger eyes, neoteny, you know, so, so those, those are juvenile characteristics, even if we're only selecting for docility. So therefore, does that mean we have been selected for docility? Why do we have neoteni as adult humans compared to our, our hominid brothers?

[A]

Yeah, but compared to, like, do we have, do we have that? Like, how do we know we have that?

[B]

Because you look like a baby chimp. Baby chimp doesn't look like you, bro. You look like a baby chimp. You look in the equation.

[A]

Right, but isn't, isn't, isn't that just a part of the evolutionary process, though?

[B]

Like, it's domestication. See, if you were to domesticate chimps, they would look more like their babies.

[A]

So, so you're saying that we, we could be by an. Some sort of force that's outside of us being selectively bred to be more domesticated or docile.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's some weird stuff. I'm not saying it's a fact, but that's some weird stuff I think about because. Yeah, so look up if you bring up the domestication experiment of foxes in Russia. So I think they were just selecting for docility. Make them chill, you know, so, so they want them nice and friendly.

[A]

They're just super cute no matter what.

[B]

No, but they start tailbone wagon.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So tail wagon is not normal. So like silver foxes for tameness. So they're only going for tameness, but they exhibit behavior similar to dogs. So ears going down, flopping down, bigger eyes, tail wagging. These are all like cute things, you know. So, like, that's why I would argue that we are the cute version of, like, chimps. We are much more like a baby chimp than an adult. And so that's that neoteny thing which is associated with domestication vacation, right?

[A]

Yeah, that is Wild.

[B]

Isn't this weird?

[A]

I think, like, but like, what if we could be doing it to ourselves, though?

[B]

I think, I think we are or, or somebody, something.

[A]

Because like, just like, think about how we, like, we are so far away from the. Our ancestors that needed to just survive, like, just to get through the day. We needed. We don't need to hunt and we don't need to kill other animals to eat and survive anymore. We were. We're living in a world of such luxury and high technology that like, people are just. The vast majority of people are just worried about how they look on Instagram, chicks worried about how hot they look and like editing their eyes on Instagram. And like, I wonder how that is going to. When you extrapolate that into the future. Like what we're going to look like in 500, 000 years. Like, are we going to optimize for that, that.

[B]

Well, here's the problem is we're optimizing artificially. So we are. You are selecting your partner on physical characteristics that are not part of their genome. They are plastic surgery characteristics.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So we're screwing our genetics on that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So like, we're no longer picking someone because you're attractive, because you have these attributes that are phenotypically expressed based on your genetics. We're doing it because you look like this, because you had a lot of money and it got to fix everything that was wrong with you. Wrong with you, you know, perceptive wise.

[A]

Yeah. And a big problem is, is like these designer babies people are trying to have.

[B]

That's some weird stuff with like the crisper stuff.

[A]

Yeah. And even which this, this anthropologist was explaining to me, he was. It's a very kind of like sensitive, taboo topic, but in vitro fertilization, people who can't have babies, you get to pick. You get to. They can figure out a way to take your, your eggs out and take somebody's sperm and like make it in the test tube and then put it back in you. Dude, he was saying that that's like, that's going against nature and that's. That could lead to some scary.

[B]

You know Andrew Scholz, the comedian.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. So on my drive here, I listened to his new special on Netflix.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

And it's all about him trying to conceive with his wife.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And he literally talks about, about you get to pick. He's like, we did in vitro. And he literally said it. He's like, we have nine embryos. Do you want a boy? Do you want a girl?

[A]

That's so crazy, dude.

[B]

And then he picked the one, and then they're like, oh, you have five more left. He's like, I thought you said it was nine. He's like, oh, it's five. He's like, well, why is it not nine? He's like, oh, we're not really comfortable with the other ones. And he kept on saying and beating her, and he made a lot of really funny jokes about it. You know, she watched the special, right?

[A]

I actually saw him. He came here, like, a year ago. Into his show. He was at. He was like. I think when he was still working that special, he did my gator tour. Did he really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he was super funny, man.

[A]

That's.

[B]

It was before. Like, he was, like, big, you know? And, like, I didn't even know who he was at the time. And he came and did the tour, and we had a really good time, and. And then he just blew up. And I'm like, I knew him.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

It literally, it was right before he blew up. Like, really? I remember him sending a photo. He took a selfie of me and him and the alligator and texted it to Joe Rogan.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

And I was. Was like, what? You know what I mean?

[A]

That's hilarious.

[B]

It. It was cool. But, yeah, being able to do that, being able to pick. Yeah, we're already altering all that stuff, you know?

[A]

Yeah, man. I think about that all the time. Like. Like, with the technology, being able to just, like, fix any. Because. Because, you know, I think about, like, people who can't have kids or, like, you know, it's. It's. It's really sad when people can't do that and have this experience. But, like, at the same time, you got to think about, like, is that some sort of natural selection?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, maybe you weren't meant to have kids. Maybe. Maybe your partner wasn't meant to have. Maybe there's, like, a reason genetically or some sort of scientific thing in your body that's basically not allowing you to do that. Right.

[B]

Well, have you. Have you researched a lot on, like, microplastics and stuff and effects on fertility?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah.

[B]

Phthalates.

[A]

Yeah. We had Dr. Shauna Swan in here.

[B]

Oh, you did?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's so cool. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. How they.

[B]

I love her. I mean, her work is fascinating. Fertility rates, just.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

All the phthalates, microplastic, all that stuff.

[A]

Fertility rate and sperm count have been dropping. I think it was like 1 to 2% per year since the 50s. These?

[B]

Yeah, it's terrifying. Like, that's literally. I'm not kidding you. I brought my water bottle in here because I was like, they're probably gonna have plastic water bottles, and I don't want the plastic.

[A]

Yeah, you know what she said? She told me, I asked her, like, what the best way was to avoid the microplastics and the phthalates, and she said it's not the water bottles or the food because it's hard to avoid that. She's like, the number one way to avoid that stuff is to take your shoes off outside because your shoes bring the most of that into your house.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The shoes themselves or what you step.

[A]

In with the stuff you step in, like, throughout the day.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

She was like, that's one of the biggest, biggest ways to contaminate yourself or your house or your kids or whatever with this. With this stuff. Obviously, you know, it's in everything. Every food, every. Even, like, Even, like metal cans. They have a plastic liner on the inside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's this brand, Liquid Death. They make water and it's all about dick death. The plastic. We. They put death in aluminum cans. But I just found out recently that they. They have a plastic liner on the inside.

[B]

It's terrifying.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

I. I mean, okay. It's like the. The cup that I have the coffee in, you guys made for me.

[A]

Paper.

[B]

Well, it's plastic liner in the paper, and then that's hot stuff. That's the other thing she said is avoid anything heated against it. So, like, yes, that was a big point that she made is like, don't heat anything. So, like, I took a couple sips of this coffee. It helped me, you know, be a little. Be a little prepped up for this.

[A]

That goes with the alien thing too, man. The aliens are genderless.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But are they genderless because of environmental factors like that or because we realize there's no point in having any gender because we're going to select the best embryos in vitro? And why. Why would you have sex with random recombination when you can make the perfect. Exactly. You can select it. Why would you do that?

[A]

Yeah, just 3D print. The perfect creature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The perfect human or the perfect alien.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

There's so many different. There's so many different crazy rabbit holes to go down with the whole UFO thing and, and how it go, like, how it ties into human, human evolution. And my favorite one is. My favorite one is that they're time travelers because there's so Many, there's so many cases of people being abducted. Whether that's real or not, a lot of those people say that they had their sperms and their eggs extracted from them when they went up to the spaceship. Vast majority of them.

[B]

Because in the future, they're.

[A]

So in the future, if we got bottlenecked into the future by some sort of cataclysmic comic cosmic event or something like that, or a super volcano, who knows?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the species bottlenecked, there would be a lot of inbreeding. Right. So if we had time travel, why would not just go into the past when we were robust and diverse and take the DNA from those folks and bring them back into the future and try to repopulate the planet?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Well, so what I think about with that too is like, why would they look like us?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, you know, so if, if it was alien, like truly alien, then there's no way it would look like a hominid. Unless there' a code in the genes that all roads lead to crab, you know, that kind of thing. So that's the only way that would possibly make sense is the whole panspermia thing and our planet was seeded by the same DNA source as other planets, and then all roads lead to the same thing eventually because it's coated in there. Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense that something evolved on a different planet would look anything like this.

[A]

Right. Plus, Wick, we're so like, human beings are so rare. Just on this planet planet, I think there's over 2 million cataloged species of living, living animals on this Earth. Over 2 million. Out of the 2 million, there's 20 hominids. Out of the 20 hominids, we are the one that could figure out technology.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

And the technology that could get, get us off the planet. So we're like z0001% of living animals on Earth on this perfect, this planet that's perfectly inhabitable for life. Right. Teaming with, with life. So all the other planets that we know of that are in like goldilocks zones that have water, that have atmospheres. How rare those are. Now look at like most of them, I think are water worlds. So there's not any land, if any land on those, on those planets. Their gravity is far different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Their atmospheres are different. They're probably like, you know, who knows if they have a planet like Jupiter that can suck in all the asteroids that can stop. Who knows if they are binary star systems or they have two stars, you know, there's so many different variables. Like, if we're.001% on this planet, like, what are the chances that something is going to evolve to have two arms, two legs, upright walking hominids with the brain that sits directly on top of the eyes? That seems almost impossible, dude.

[B]

Yeah. That's why it makes way more sense if there are aliens on the planet and they do look like that. They are something of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dimensional future. I don't know, you know, but like, it makes way more sensitive. That is actually what they look like, look like that they are some version of us either again, interdimensionally or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. I just want to know if. I want to know if sharks and alligators made it that far into the future. I want to ask them.

[B]

Well, here's, here's. Here's crazy. You know, sharks are older than trees.

[A]

I saw that. I heard that. Isn't that nuts? So how did they find. How did they determine that, though?

[B]

Sharks.

[A]

You said they can't do it with alligators, right?

[B]

Well, no, like, they're like, their lineage is older than trees, so.

[A]

Like, their lineage.

[B]

Yeah, so we know, like. Oh, man, what is it? Like, there's a shark.

[A]

I heard the. The thing. I read that there was a shark that was still alive.

[B]

Oh, the Greenland shark.

[A]

Greenland shark, yeah. That was older than like the first tree or something like that.

[B]

No, no, no. So, yeah, so we're mixing up two things here. So, like, the shark lineage is older than trees. The Greenland shark itself is older than the United States.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's not thousands. It's hundreds of years old. It's like, yeah, there he can pull it up so I don't say the wrong thing. Anyways, so they. They look and they do something.

[A]

Greenland Sharks live 400 years. Go up, down, right there. People also ask, do Greenland sharks live longer than 400 years? Yes. Scientists estimate the Greenland shark can live to be over 400 years old, making them the longest living vertebrae. What?

[B]

Yeah. So it's something in the eye, huh?

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Oh, that's a parasite on its eye.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They get some nasty parasites.

[A]

But, dude, I had this guy in here explaining to me, this brain surgeon. He was explaining to me. I mean, he spent a lot of his life studying the effects of light on mitochondria and human beings. And he was explaining to me how, like, human beings, with the de. Development of technology and being underneath artificial lights all day inside, not waking up outside in the sun. Sunlight, like, we. We don't wake up exposed to the sunrise or I'll go to bed with the sun going down. And how the circadian rhythm of the sun directly affects our mitochondria and every, all the cells in our body. And with the development of technology and human beings staying inside more than usual, it's shortening our lifespan. It's creating more diseases, more cancer. He said it's, it's similar to like an orca in the wild versus an orca in a tank of SeaWorld.

[B]

I believe it. Yeah, I mean, I definitely believe it. I mean just think about like how much we mess up animals with our technology, you know? And like just. You don't think it's doing it to us too, you know? And like, I don't know, like, you know, so I have a 40 acre sanctuary, right. So I'm out there, I'm outside all day, every day and I'm working all day. And if I don't turn on lights and if I don't like, I, I'll sometimes I'll do it on purpose. I'll work until the sun is going down and as it starts going down I'm like, I'm not going to turn on any lights because to me I'm like, like, I like to try to like, I don't like test my limits I guess, you know. So I'll like walk around the sanctuary just by the moonlight. Yeah, I do it all the time. And like I turn off my lights on purpose and I just walk around just with the moonlight, just with a starlight too. When there's no moon, I can literally walk around by starlight because I'm in the middle of nowhere. So, so cool. It is, it's really cool. But what I also noticed notice is how tired I get. I'm like, and I'm like it's only 8pm why do I want to go to sleep? I don't go to sleep till usually midnight. And I'm like, oh, because the sun went down and my, my whole body is telling me go to sleep now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Instead of. But as soon as you turn on the artificial lights, I'm like, yeah, I'm up till 12, you know, every night.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. That, that people up so much more than, than, than most people are aware of.

[B]

But another cool feeling that I noticed doing that is on full moons, how energized I feel being outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because like I, I don't know, like I think that I, I don't know, but I feel like we evolved to really take advantage of full moons. And I'm sure through our history of hap. Like, you can hunt. Like, I can really see on a full moon at night when you're out in the country, there's no, there's no light pollution. Like, I'm like, dude, I could totally hunt right now if I. If I. You know, like. And so I feel like we're, we're wired for that, you know, like when you're out there in a full moon, like, it, it totally kicks something in my brain that gets me like, amped.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I'm like, I feel like I could like actually be out and doing stuff right now.

[A]

I noticed that I started sleeping way better when I started getting up in the morning and being outside during the sunrise.

[B]

Oh, that's what Huberman, you know, he talks about all the time is like, what is it? 30 minutes of sunlight exposure immediately upon waking up, like, makes a massive difference in like your well being overall.

[A]

Well, specifically when the sun's rising, there's more red light. The, the light is more on the red spectrum. It's not, it's not so much ultraviolet yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that makes sense when it's. And for something about that red light in the morning, during the sunrise, when you're getting that light into your eyes, it creates this hormone called. I might be messing this up, but I think it's called melanopsin. And that melanopsin hormone is what's responsible for melatonin production in your body. So your. Our bodies are wired to. Okay, now I know in 12 hours you're going to start getting tired. This melatonin is going to start being released at the right time. So that's when, you know you're getting tired and that's when you should go to bed. H. Fascinating.

[B]

I know. I love all that stuff, man. And I love trying to figure out why does it work like that, like, you know, evolutionary. Like. I was just saying, like the full moon thing, like, why are people more crazy on full moons? Yeah, you know, like there's, there's that spike in like crime and like all the, all that kind of people get more crazy, you know, And I'm like, why is that? And I'm like, I would imagine that on full moons we had more like festivals, more like hunting events, you know, in our history. History. Because I mean, again, when you're out there, like when you're out in the country on a full moon, it really gives you this like, feeling, you know, Like, I feel it and I'm like, I don't know. I bet it was like more of a time of celebration, festival kind of thing. You could do hunting, war. You could war against another tribe because you could see them, you know?

[A]

Yeah, man, that makes perfect sense. Wild. Well, Chris, dude, thank you so much for coming and doing this.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

This has been fascinating. When do you plan on opening up the. The new. The new spot? This 40. Say it's 40 acres.

[B]

Yeah. So. Well, we're only really working on the 20 so far. The other half is just wilderness still right now. But, yeah, we're hoping this year to hopefully be able to open up for tours. It's just a lot of bureaucracy, paperwork, all that kind of crap, you know, so we got to figure out all that stuff, and then hopefully this year or next year, we're going to open up for actual tours and whatnot.

[A]

Oh, that's badass, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is that famous photographer that's always around Florida taking all those walks, wildlife photos, and, like, he's a huge part of conservation in Florida.

[B]

There's quite a few. Which one was he?

[A]

He. He actually. His parents live, like, five minutes from here.

[B]

He's a young guy, older guy.

[A]

He's. I want to say he's in his 40s. He's not that old. Is it. Is it Mike? No, his name. I don't think it's Mike.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

It's gonna drive. This is gonna drive me crazy. Now, we talked about him with forest. I think I have his name somewhere. Yeah, I think we reached out, like, in Tampa. Yes, yes, yes. I forget what that is. But anyways, he, like, he. He. He goes around. He has cameras all over Florida, like, in all. Like the. Like in the Everglades, up in all. All the Carlton Ward.

[B]

Look at that moment. That was.

[A]

Yeah, dude, the stuff that. The stuff that he gets on those. On those. Those cameras is insane. Those photos are wild.

[B]

Yeah, he does incredible work.

[A]

Yeah. But. Okay, cool. This is your website, Bellowing Acres?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's the name of the sanctuary, and we have over 200 animals at the sanctuary right now.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah, so. But I mean, really what we run into is cost, you know, I mean, that's what's difficult. Like, I built that sanctuary out of my pocket, you know, and I grew up poor. Like, it's all money. It's. It's my blood money, literally. Different kind of blood money, you know? But yeah, we've got several alligators, crocodiles, but the area is upland, so it's very sandy, which is a good thing, you know, for, like, flooding goes. But it means our ponds have to be like concentrated, concreted. So anybody out there listening, if you have a concrete hookup, let me know.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Or concrete fabric. That's what I want to try to do.

[A]

Concrete fabric.

[B]

Yeah. So that's what I'm looking into now because, like our ponds we have now, they're like six inches of concrete to have it hold form, because they're like 50 foot ponds. And I'm trying to build like a hundred foot pond. And my concrete quote for that was 76, 000. Just for the concrete.

[A]

I got a guy.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I got a good friend who has a concrete guy company.

[B]

Yeah. If anybody wants to help out, you know, hook up. We are also a nonprofit. We're. We're a legitimate 501c3 nonprofit. So if people want to make a tax deductible donation to us, you know, again, we have over 200 animals we've saved so far. We're constantly trying to do more. Build more, Save more animals.

[A]

Hell yeah, man. Sweet. We'll link it all below for people to go check it out. And thanks again, dude. This was super fun.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

[A]

All right, good night, everyone.