#372 - New Epstein Files, Trump, The Pope & Psychedelic Holy War | Travis Kitchens

Summary

Podcast Summary: Danny Jones Podcast #372

Episode Title: New Epstein Files, Trump, The Pope & Psychedelic Holy War | Travis Kitchens
Host: Danny Jones
Guest: Travis Kitchens
Date: February 20, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this sprawling, nearly four-hour conversation, Danny Jones is joined again by journalist and researcher Travis Kitchens for a wide-ranging and often provocative tour through current headlines, conspiracy theories, scandalous news drops, and deep dives into the underworld of psychedelics, media grifting, and elite power structures. Major topics include the newly released Epstein files, the muddy intersections of the psychedelic renaissance, elite philanthropy, the Catholic Church, recent political violence, and the challenges of seeking truth in a chaotic information landscape. Both host and guest bring skepticism, gallows humor, and a sometimes bracing self-awareness to discussions that range from the profoundly disturbing to the darkly comedic.

---

Table of Contents

• 1. The Psychedelic Wars: MAPS, Symposia, and Deplatforming [00:40–15:31]
• 2. The Information Firehose and Rise of Alternative Media [24:50–28:53]
• 3. AI, Search, and the Curation of Truth [28:53–33:35]
• 4. Deaths of Despair and Meaning Crises [33:35–36:01]
• 5. New Epstein Files: Scandals, Science, and Blackmail [39:20–66:07]
• 6. The Collapse of Trust: Conspiracies, Cynicism, and Institutional Rot [86:02–99:37]
• 7. Utopias, Intelligence Limits, & the Dangers of Social Engineering [225:35–229:00]
• 8. Psychedelics, Religion, and the Pursuit of "The Real Story" [129:01–130:46; 220:47–229:05]
• 9. Pop Culture, Media, and The Carnival of American Grift [94:50–117:51, scattered]
• 10. SHARKS, Alien Life, and the Limits of Knowledge [145:08–150:13, 179:06–191:25]
• 11. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

---

1. The Psychedelic Wars: MAPS, Symposia, and Deplatforming

[00:40–15:31]

• Hamilton Morris and Symposia: The episode opens with discussion about a failed attempt to have Hamilton Morris on to discuss his recent accusations against the site Symposia (psychedelic journalism/activism collective).
• Travis explains Symposia’s evolution from a "typical psychedelics website" into a more adversarial, left-leaning watchdog group, and details Morris’s allegations that Symposia (funded by the Sarlo family) sabotaged the MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) MDMA approval process.
  • “Some members of Symposia called for a public hearing… when that happened, a lot of people came forward and said negative things… Hamilton Morris is accusing them of sabotaging the drug application for money…” (Travis, [04:47])
• The backstory of a billionaire Holocaust survivor donating to MAPS after benefiting from MDMA therapy, and his daughter’s funding of opposition research, is laid out in detail.
• Legal threats: Multiple mentions of cease and desist letters from Sarlo’s lawyers to podcasters and journalists discussing the controversy.
• Travis’s own connection: He contributed an article to Symposia profiling Ralph Hood (leading researcher on psychedelic experience questionnaires and serpent-handling cults), illustrating how overlapping networks in the field can foster suspicion and infighting.

Notable Moment:

• “If you want to understand the world we live in, you ought to read Brave New World very close. It was prophetic.” (Travis, [18:44])

---

2. The Information Firehose and Rise of Alternative Media

[24:50–28:53]

• The hosts lament “the firehose” of information in the collapse of legacy media and rise of independent creators and YouTubers—how an “increase in information” doesn’t automatically translate to wiser consumers or a healthier public debate.
  • “If the level of information is going to increase… we must… have an increase in the sophistication of the consumer himself.” (Travis, [25:35])
  • Danny: “Most people... don’t even care... This guy said it and he sounds really confident.”

---

3. AI, Search, and the Curation of Truth

[28:53–33:35]

• Discussion on AI—specifically ChatGPT—sucking up content, skirting copyright, and filtering knowledge according to hidden algorithms, drawing comparisons to Google’s search manipulation in political contexts.
  • “It distills it all for you—horrible idea. You just go to the trough and you get your slop from one spot.” (Travis, [28:50])
• Skepticism about AI’s ability to resolve truly open questions: “Ask ChatGPT why the FDA denied MDMA. There’s no way it can get an answer—nobody knows.” (Travis, [30:39])

---

4. Deaths of Despair and Meaning Crises

[33:35–36:01]

• Travis explains the “deaths of despair” phenomenon—white men dying from alcohol, addiction, and suicidality—tying it to economic transitions, loss of meaning, and the social landscape of Russia post-USSR.
• The conversation pivots into how modern psychology (per William James) seeks a secular substitute for religion, identifying the historical drive to preserve “the good” parts of faith while discarding superstition.

---

5. New Epstein Files: Scandals, Science, and Blackmail

[39:20–66:07]

• The newly released trove of Epstein emails is explored at length, with both hosts expressing horror and fascination at the depth of “civilization-ending” material implicating not just hedge funders, but leading scientists, science philanthropists, and even pop culture figures.
  • “This could take down the whole American empire…if people start to realize that our world is run by these people…” (Danny, [57:43])
• The disturbing overlap between elite donors, scientists, and even the psychedelic research field—mentioning Kimbal Musk, Brian Murarescu, and others—is noted.
• Travis and Danny discuss Peter Attia (longevity influencer), the nature of his relationship to Epstein, and the damning content in their correspondence that “corroborates” critical life decisions.
• Discussion of other journalists and outlets doing “the best” reporting—notably Ryan Grim at Drop Site News and Michael Wolff.
  • “If even 20% of what Michael Wolff says is true, that’s goddamn crazy.” (Danny, [64:06])
• The files reveal desperate scientists “bootlicking” for Epstein’s money and, bizarrely, attempts to pitch Roman Polanski-themed art exhibits to normalize lines between childhood and adulthood.

Notable Quote:

• “One of the things I find most grotesque is just what bootlickers all of these high-end academics and scientists are… confirms all the worst stereotypes.” (Travis, [65:19])

---

6. The Collapse of Trust: Conspiracies, Cynicism, and Institutional Rot

[86:02–99:37]

• The hosts reflect on how the steady drumbeat of cover-ups, scandals, and elite corruption (Epstein, the CIA, Manson, Kennedy, Iraq war lies…) has brought America to modern toxic levels of cynicism and disbelief.
• “People just assume that the official story isn’t right… the long-term consequence of covering shit up is that eventually people start going, ‘I don’t believe anything these people say…’” (Travis, [87:29])
• Examples of the grift economy, e.g., Candace Owens shifting personas, are dissected as symptoms of an era where outrage and social media spectacle reliably trump substance.

---

7. Utopias, Intelligence Limits, & the Dangers of Social Engineering

[225:35–229:00]

• Travis, previewing his upcoming book “The Immortality Con,” releases internal texts and claims that the psychedelic community (notably figures around Johns Hopkins) attempted to get Pope Francis to endorse psychedelic Eucharist, driven by belief that psychedelics are the origin of religious experience and a panacea for the world’s woes.
• Raises parallel to the Soviet and Nazi experiments in utopian social engineering—warning that grand attempts to “engineer” human beings run up against hard evolutionary and cognitive limits.
  • “If you don’t know much about what you don’t know, you ought to be real careful… we ought to be very careful; what we shouldn’t do is act in extremely arrogant and strident ways.” (Travis, [227:52])
• “The question of how to act in ignorance is paramount.” (Travis, [226:35])

---

8. Psychedelics, Religion, and the Pursuit of "The Real Story"

[129:01–130:46; 220:47–229:05]

• The episode revisits the age-old dream of using psychedelics as a universal cure (“if only world leaders all took mushrooms…”), complicating it with cautionary tales of ego inflation and the impossibility of sorting “real” insight from delusion.
• Travis reveals material from his reporting: a group email involving leading researchers and Brian Murarescu about combining psychedelic advocacy, Catholic ritual reform, and direct appeals to the Pope.

---

9. Pop Culture, Media, and The Carnival of American Grift

[94:50–117:51, scattered]

• The hosts riff on everything from the origin and influence of American country music to the shoehorning of politics into media grift, weird cults, the ongoing saga of Scientology in Florida, deep dives into art forgery, and bizarre connections between pop music and underground movements.
• Memorable riffs on Bill Hicks, George Carlin, and the curious case of Harmony Korine (filmmaker, artist, IDF fundraiser now) and cutting observations about how cultural archetypes and historical amnesia shape the present.

---

10. SHARKS, Alien Life, and the Limits of Knowledge

[145:08–150:13, 179:06–191:25]

• The episode takes an extended sojourn into shark attacks, animal captivity, and the mythic horrors of nature vs. civilization.
• The topic of UFOs and alien life comes up, with both hosts adopting a skeptical yet open posture:
  • “I’m certainly convinced there are some cases where beings that aren’t human…have been captured by the U.S. government… [But] I’m not convinced it’s extraterrestrial.” (Danny, [179:45])

---

11. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Information Age and Truth

• “Most people… When I ask, ‘If you wanted to know [the truth], where would you look?’ People go, ‘I don’t know.’ The libraries are empty.” (Travis, [28:38])
• “Your only freedom in this country is to say no or no thank you, I don’t want it.” (Travis, [30:02])

On the Epstein Files & Elites

• “If people start to realize that our world is run by these people... that could take down the whole American empire.” (Danny, [57:43])
• “It confirms all the worst stereotypes…” (Travis, [65:19])

On the Psychedelic Renaissance

• “What they wanted to do was convince Pope Francis that in the Eucharist, for all Catholic churches around the world, they should use a psychedelic drug.” (Travis, [223:35])

On Humility and Human Limits

• “The message of psychedelics—We don’t know very much about what’s going on… so we ought to be very careful.” (Travis, [226:35])

On Alien Life and Human Rarity

• “Out of all species catalogued on Earth, 20... are hominids. Out of those, one has developed technology… We are .00001% of all species. So, on Earth alone, we are super rare.” (Danny, [190:10])

---

Key Timestamps – For Deep Dives

• [00:40–15:31] Psychedelic politics: Symposia v. MAPS/MDMA/Philanthropy
• [28:53] AI, media curation, and the Google/ChatGPT filter problem
• [39:20–66:07] Unpacking New Epstein Files: Atia, Gates, blackmail, and elite ties to science
• [86:02–99:37] Institutional trust collapse, conspiracy mindsets, zeitgeist of cynicism
• [223:12–227:50] Exclusive: Psychedelic researchers, the Pope, and the sacramental MDMA gambit
• [129:01–130:46] On the expansion of “psychedelic churches” and mainstreaming of altered states
• [145:08–150:13] Shark attacks, animal captivity, horror, and nature
• [179:06–191:25] What do UFO sightings tell us? Are “aliens” really from here?
• [225:35–229:00] Limits of social engineering, the importance of humility in face of ignorance

---

Tone & Style

The episode weaves together irreverence, alarm, earnest inquiry, skepticism, pop-cultural references, and a Midwestern/blue-collar sensibility. Both Jones and Kitchens are frank about their limitations, aware of how easy it is to get swept up in speculation, and passionate about demanding honesty and humility from both themselves and the institutions they cover.

---

Recommended For

• Listeners interested in the darker corners of current events, power structures, and the intersection of drugs, spirituality, and elite secrets.
• Fans of gonzo, unfiltered, and sardonic long-form podcasts.
• Anyone struggling to make sense of our runaway information age—or simply looking for the best rabbit holes in contemporary culture.

---

“We don’t really know that much…The mystery surrounding our lives is probably not reducible by very much. And so the question of how to act in ignorance is paramount.”
— Travis Kitchens [226:35]

---

This summary omits all advertisements, sponsorship reads, and non-content sections.

Transcript

[A]

Reggie, I just sold my car online.

[B]

Let's go, Grandpa. Wait, you did?

[A]

Yep. On Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[B]

You don't say.

[A]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow.

[B]

Talk about fast. Wow. Way to go.

[A]

So, about that picture frame.

[B]

Ah, forget about it.

[A]

Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested. Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pick up. These may apply. We were going to have Hamilton here, but that didn't. It didn't pan out.

[B]

I know. I don't know what.

[A]

So what were you guys gonna. I didn't. You said it like a debate, but I didn't even think it was going to be a debate. The whole thing was like the symposia DEA thing. So Hamilton texted me and said he found he had Hamilton Morris for people who were wondering. He found that this symposium. What is symposia? There's somehow DEA informants. This is what he says.

[B]

Oh, I don't know that. I mean, he's accusing them of that, but it's just. It's a psychedelic. It really was just a website. A group of people that started a website and were publishing articles about psychedelics. And yeah, up until a certain point, it was just typical. The kind of typical stuff you'd find on psychedelics, you know, Dennis McKenna, interview with Dennis McKenna. And studies are showing this.

[A]

Pull this thing down.

[B]

And then I think, you know, around the time of Me too, and a lot of the social justice stuff, they started taking a more critical approach to looking at psychedelics and the emerging psychedelic industry. And so there was just a website of. Of articles that were being published, and there is a group of four or five, six people behind it. And so Hamilton has been going on various podcasts, Andrew Callahan and others, and looking into their finances and accusing them of various things. But as far as him coming here, he. Yeah, it was gonna. It wasn't gonna be a debate.

[A]

No, that's right. I didn't think so.

[B]

No, just a general discussion, I think. I think it was just talk about psychedelics. Different. Whatever's happening in psychedelics.

[A]

So why is symposia threatening to sue? Are we allowed to say that they're

[B]

threatening to sue him?

[A]

I think he already said this on podcast, right?

[B]

Yeah, he. Shoot, he. He showed the papers, the lawyers, cease and desist letters.

[A]

So he came on my podcast about. I don't know how long that was, like, what, six, seven months ago, Year ago?

[B]

Yeah, about a year ago.

[A]

About a year ago last year. And he was talking about this stuff, the symposia stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they threatened to. They sent him a cease and desist afterwards. Said, don't talk about us anymore.

[B]

Yeah, well, he was. I think he made a technical mistake. There was a woman. Basically, here's what happened. There was an old man who's a Holocaust survivor in the San Francisco Bay area. He, of course, you know, he's a Holocaust survivor. He's got trauma, ptsd, et cetera, et cetera. And someone from Maps. I think they may have been on the board. I don't remember the woman's name. She befriended this man. She gave him MDMA and other psychedelics. The. They profoundly. He said they profoundly helped him. And then he started giving a lot of money to maps. Well, this man's daughter said. Saw it as, hey, there's. There were drugs taking hanky panky. Now millions of dollars are being exchanged. You know, this is. There's, I guess the inheritors of the money. The guy's a billionaire. I think they had a problem with that. And so they said, hey, what is this drug company, Bilk and Grandpa or Bilk and Dad? And so they started funding opposition research into maps.

[A]

Opposition research?

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, at the same time, maps, and it's. It's a very complicated story, but maps, which is a non pro. Was a non profit, basically the major, major psychedelic clinical trial group. They were the. They've. They've been doing trials for 40 years. They've been doing research into psychedelics for 40 years. It was started by Rick.

[A]

Mainly MDMA, wasn't it?

[B]

It was mainly MDMA, but they've done other stuff. But it was started by Rick Do Doblin, who was over at New College in Florida. How far is that from here?

[A]

I have no. Oh, is that Sarasota?

[B]

Yes, it's Sarasota.

[A]

Oh, that's like an hour from here.

[B]

Okay, well, Rick Doblin was in Sarasota. He was a new college student. This is where he started all of this MDMA research. He became a true believer, and he turned himself into what New York magazine called the Timothy leary of the 80s. So they put in the what? The NDA, the new drug application to try to get MDMA approved as a medicine. And all of this controversy erupted. Basically, some members of symposia called for a public hearing. Hey, let the public have input into whether this drug passes or not. And when that happened, a lot of people came forward and said negative things. And several of these people were from the symposium organization. So Hamilton Morris is accusing them of sabotaging the drug application for money because

[A]

symposia had a rich dad.

[B]

No, it wasn't symposia. The woman Sarlo, the. The Holocaust survivor billionaire, his daughter gave them some money.

[A]

Gave symposium? Yes. What the is symposia, though?

[B]

It's just. It's like. It's just a. It's just a website. It's a group of people.

[A]

It's a website.

[B]

It's a group of people. Yeah, pull it up. Like if you put. Yeah, there you go. There you go. This is an event.

[A]

So, okay, so the billionaire's daughter gave these folks.

[B]

Her name is Susie Sarlo. And we should say this because the reason he got a cease and desist letter is because the Sarlos have all of these. You know, when you got billions of dollars, you have these different philanthropic organizations. Some of them are gained towards this, some of them are towards that, and they have different names. This is the Susie Sarlo Trust. This is the Children's Defense Fund. Whatever.

[A]

This is like the. Yeah, like all the George Soros funds.

[B]

Yeah, the Open Society Foundation. Exactly. And so they fund all kinds of different stuff. And they gave a couple hundred thousand dollars to them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For their efforts.

[A]

Now it's a website.

[B]

It's a website. Yeah.

[A]

Basically about psychedelics.

[B]

Yes. That publishes like. Hey, Steve, would you put in. Put in. In the search bar, put in Travis Kitchens and you'll see an article they published to mine.

[A]

Oh, you work for them?

[B]

No, yeah, I work for them. Yeah. No, no. In 2019, I wrote a very long article there it is a channel for magic. Okay, what's the date on it?

[A]

Ralph Hood go down.

[B]

Ralph Hood is a buddy

[A]

you told me about Ralph Hood.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There he is. The bottom right hand corner. That's Ralph Hood. That's his office at University of Tennessee.

[A]

Redneck.

[B]

He's from. He's from Newport Beach, California.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, He's a psychologist. He's. He's one. He is a major figure in the psychology of religion.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And he's. He's professor emeritus of religious studies. He's probably the most intelligent. What. He is what? By far one of the most intelligent, knowledgeable people I've ever met. And he's cool as hell. You should have him. He is the world's leading authority on serpent handling cults.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you told me about this guy.

[B]

And there's an archive at Chattanooga that you can get you. We could go to and watch some of it. You can go to the University of Tennessee Chattanooga's website, go to the Hood repository, whatever it's called. And he filmed hundreds of hours of these people doing it in the mountains of Appalachia. And anybody is free to look at it and use it. And it's people, some of them, in some of the videos people will get bit and died. It's extreme, extreme sports that. So anyway, so in around 2021, 2022, I wrote this article, a profile of Ralph Hood, okay, Talking about how important he was to psychedelic research. Because what happened was I did the study at Hopkins and they give you a bunch of questionnaires after you take the drugs, as the drugs are wearing off, they make you fill out questionnaires about the experience directly after as it's wearing off, right? So I asked who makes these questionnaires? Ralph Hood. So I said, who the hell is Ralph Hood? I looked him up. World's leading expert and serpent handler. So I went, eh, I'm gonna go down to Tennessee and I'm gonna talk to him. So I went down and talked to him and I went, whoa, this guy is badass. So I interviewed him, this is the result. And I, I pitched it to New York Times Magazine and they had an interest in it, but they said look, you can't have serpent handling and psychedelics. Take the psychedelic stuff out. I said no, that defeats the whole purpose. So they said we're not interested anymore.

[A]

What?

[B]

So yeah, they said you can't have serpent handling and psychedelics. You're going to confuse everybo. Because it's, this is an 8000 word article, it's very long. So when they shot it down, you know, they have a, if you go to about or something, you'll see you can submit an article. We could write an article on psychedelics right now. We could submit it to them and if they like it, they'll publish it. So I submitted to them, I didn't know them and they said this is great, we will publish it without it being edited, which is what I was looking for. So they published it. They don't pay, but they published it and you know, subsequently it was featured in the New York Times, it was featured in some books that, you know, Ivy League University Press books. And so it's, it's been widely read and I'm, I'm, I'm as proud of it as anything I've ever written.

[A]

Look at that. Right wink. Psych. Right wing psychedelia at University of Mad Madison, Wisconsin.

[B]

I don't know what that is. Click on It.

[A]

It's Almonds University. Hang on, hang on real quick. I want to read that little. That little bio. So this is a bio for symposia. They're a 501c3 nonprofit research and media organization that offers critical perspectives on drugs, multiple politics and culture. We rely on contributions from our readers and listeners. And the billionaire drug lady whose dad was a holocaust.

[B]

Susie Sarlo.

[A]

Susie Sarlo.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think we're on skating on thin ice even. Even mentioning her. But this is true. Everything we said is true.

[A]

Well, you know what happens when these kind of folks send you a cease and desist. You see. Ever heard of Sean Ryan? You see what happened with him? No, I sent you a link to it earlier.

[B]

Oh, this is the Navy SEAL guy.

[A]

Yeah, Sean Ryan's the Navy SEAL podcast he was talking about. He had some lady on his podcast who was. Had a relative who went to this Christian Boy Scout camp. Yeah, I forget what it was called. Google it. Sean Ryan. And allegedly the people that ran this, like, summer camp, this Christian summer camp, were abusing and little boys, and this lady was like, blowing the whistle on it. And Sean Ryan did a whole podcast on it. They sent him a cease and desist. He made a video about the cease and desist. And it got, like millions of views.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's just the strand effect. It's just making these people, it's. They're burying themselves.

[B]

Yes, yes. And so the controversy around the, the, the, the MDMA symposia thing is this.

[A]

That's what it is. Can a cook camp canna cook?

[B]

How much of a role did. What Symposium symposia's efforts, how much did that, what effect did that have on the FDA rejecting it? And the answer to that is nobody knows. Some people say they sunk it. They did it all. The FDA themselves, they published the rejection letter and they said, this is why we rejected it. And they listed a whole bunch of scientific reasons, so nobody knows. Some people say it had no effect whatsoever. Some people say it had a lot of effect. Morris points to the fact that after it was rejected, they did take credit for it. They sent out publicity emails saying, we took the application down, blah, blah, blah. So it's a controversial topic. It's muddy. And this is what Morris is. This is. This is. He's dedicated his time to. And as you said, he published a podcast the other day on Patreon accusing some members of symposia as being federal informants for the dea, essentially, I guess, ratting on people that were doing underground MDMA therapy. This is these. These are the accusations. I don't know.

[A]

Did he get the cease and assist from symposia or Sarlos?

[B]

No, neither. A letter. A law. A law firm, big time law firm in San Francisco that represents the Sarlo Foundation.

[A]

Okay, so it was a salos.

[B]

Uhhuh. And they said, actually it wasn't this Sarlo group. It was this other Sarlo group that gave him the money. So technically, you're wrong. And accused him of spinning conspiracy theories and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, he has a rather complex, maybe even convoluted narrative around this that he explained on the Andrew Callahan show, of which he has evidence for some of it, and other of. Some of it may be speculation. They say it's a conspiracy theory. It's a. It's a mess. But you can see the stakes are. You can see why people are emotionally invested. This is a consequential thing. This is the passage of a drug therapy of which some people say. Jonathan Lubecki, who's a. A veteran who's involved in the psychedelic world, says, look, this shit saved my life. And there's a lot of other people who will tell you that it saved their life, and that this drug, that mdma, if it passes, could save people, literally save their lives. You know, we have a serious problem in this country with veterans committing suicide in the aftermath of the Iraq war. At one point, it was 22 a day, which is kind of hard to wrap your head around. You know, my brother's a veteran. My dad's a Vietnam veteran. Both of my granddads were in World War II. My whole family are veterans coming back to their Revolutionary War.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

So, you know, I have sympathy for this, and I do think I don't know enough. I didn't. I haven't looked through the science on mdma. My interest is in psilocybin, what you call the classic psychedelics, and the Hopkins study. So I don't know if what the FDA said about the flaws in the trials were legitimate or not. Some people said, yes, they were. Other people said, no, they weren't. So it's kind of hard to tell.

[A]

So this symposia group is specifically doing, like, counter operations against all this stuff. Like, they're reporting on all the negative aspects of it and trying to debunk it.

[B]

They. Yeah, I would say they were providing a critical perspective, some of which was. Much of which was legitimate. I mean, these were just. It's just reporting into the psychedelic field. But I think where they got into trouble is some of it was infused with hardcore leftist politics and some of the MeToo type orientation and, and social justice activism, et cetera, et cetera. So it wasn't just reporting like, this person did this and this person did this. They are coming and they will tell you very much. We are coming from a left wing political perspective, you know, which is not in. In our. The media landscape that we live in currently. You know, contemporary media landscape is not that unusual. No, no.

[A]

It's just weird to like be out, coming out. Right. And saying it. We come from a left wing perspective. Usually those people try to like, say they're coming from a neutral.

[B]

Well, if. Yeah, if you work for. I mean, but they're an independent group. I mean, if you work for the Washington Post, which, you know, rip three days slash 300 people yesterday, or you work for one of these legacy media institutions, you definitely don't want to say that. You want to act. Look, we're neutral, right? There's no bias. We don't have a political perspective. I mean, everybody knows it's not true, but.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

You have to. At least.

[A]

At least you got to pretend. Exactly.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

But they're not even pretending.

[B]

No, because it's an independent. You know, I'm trying to think. You know, there's. You got all of these magazines, like Leftist Magazine. There's a tradition of these in these times, Dissent. These are old timey labor magazines, Ramparts. They're magazines that come out of that 60s radical Meloo, you know, so these things have been around for a long time. And you have right wing. I mean, you have the Claremont Review of Books, you have the Lamp. You have all kinds of right wing magazines that are like, you know, like first things and that. That say, look, we're right, we're conservative or right wing, and this is our perspective. It's, you know, whatever. I like to read from both.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Personally, I read. I read widely in all of these things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Less and less the left wing stuff because it's just become boring. But you know, when it's. When it's just. When it's just inundated in everything, you start to be like, okay, I already know what this article is going to say. You know what I mean?

[A]

My favorite part about winter is I get to wear my rag and bone pants. I've been wearing their clothes for a while, but they're infused. Denim is on a whole nother level. My style has changed, my body has changed, and I don't Care for stiff cardboard feeling jeans anymore. When I put on their infused denim for the first time, it honestly ruined all my other jeans for me. I'm wearing them right now. The fit is actually perfect. They're soft, they're stretchy. I can skate in them. I can be casual around the house with them, I can do anything. And they're not too baggy, they're not too skinny. They're just the perfect fit. And they don't shrink too much when you put them in the wash. They move with you. They keep their shape and they develop character the longer you wear them. And no matter what your style is slim, straight, relaxed, or athletic, there's a cut that fits you perfectly. These ones are actually the athletic fit. I highly recommend it. But the real magic is in the wash. Each pair goes through an eight step over dye process so the color has depth and texture you usually don't see in super premium denim. Over time, it gets even better. Like the jeans are aging with you. This is rag and bone doing what they do best. Two decades of denim obsession packed into a pair you'll reach for every single day. It's time to upgrade your denim with rag and bone. For a limited time, our listeners are getting 20% off their entire order by using the code [e-mail]. that's 20 [e-mail]. and use the promo code D A N N Y when they ask where you heard about them. Please support our show by telling them we sent you. One of the crazy things I learned when Hamilton was in here is all of the different competing powers that are trying to use psychedelics to their own ends. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you can see it's. I mean, technology essentially is neutral. You know what I mean? You can use a hammer to build a house for Habitat for Humanity or you can bash somebody's brain out.

[A]

Yeah. You know Nancy Pelosi's husband's in the head, right?

[B]

God. With psychedelics. I mean, you can see the. We talked about last time, the uses for the military. I mean, if you have a. What they call terror. If you have a drug that has terror reduction, what they call terror reduction capabilities. Terror mitigating. In the psychedelic literature, psilocybin has this effect. It makes people less scared to die. You have a drug of which they studied in cancer patients that cancer patients would take it and they would go, okay, I'm not scared anymore.

[A]

Yeah. This was in the immortality key in the beginning.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, it was. Yeah. Yep. And you can see how the ears might perk up of the Pentagon. Hold up. It makes people less scared to die. I know some people who could use this. Guess what? We have a new drug. It's Cheney. What? They're not afraid to die. I mean, that could be very useful. We should say, you know, Morris says, oh, anti drug. This is anti drug. That's any drug. As if this on its own is self justifying. Calling anti drug. Look, the Terence McKenna called Brave New World, the greatest anti drug book ever written. It is an anti drug book. It's also a classic in the canon of literature. You should. We should. If you want to understand the world we live in, you ought to read it very close. It was published in. I always. It was, you know, before I really got into this stuff, I was thinking, man, the 50s, earliest 60s. It was published in the 1930s. It's prophetic.

[A]

Really.

[B]

It's prophetic. And

[A]

Huxley.

[B]

Yeah. And so this is in the tradition of psychedelic writers. Alice Huxley, Terence McKenna, you all, you have a responsibility as an intellectual and as a journalist and a reporter and as a human being to look into how these things might be used. Now obviously the industry isn't going to want that. And Morris is on the industry side. Did GM like it when Ralph Nader published Unsafe at Any Speed and said, hey, we ought to have seat belts in cars? No, they didn't like it. In fact, they tried to set him up with. They tried to get prostitutes and women to screw him so that they could set him up and blackmail him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To discredit him because they didn't want to pay to put in air, to put in seat belts. Of course they're going to resist it. They want to maximize profit for shareholders. You can understand it, we all get it. But. But ultimately Nader was right. Can you throw a seatbelt and maybe an airbag in there so we don't die in the car crash? Okay, so this is, this is what's happening with you. You must, you have a responsibility as a. You know, they call Ralph Nader a consumer advocate. I've always really had a high value on people like Nader, Barbara Ehrenreich, that say, look, it's not too much to ask that we discuss what might be some of the downsides of this shit. And the idea that any critical reporting in not critical and negative critical thinking. That's your job, applying critical thinking to the world and thinking, hold on, what might this be used for? These are serious concerns. And I should say that people within the industry themselves, I know and Friends with scientists who are developing pharmaceutical drugs with psychedelics. I don't have any problem with that. They appreciate this type of reporting because, not surprisingly, these are intelligent people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Who care about our country and who care about people. So you. You need to consider both sides. But you don't want to get into exaggeration and you don't want to get into turning it into a publicity stunt, which is what Morris is accusing them of.

[A]

Yeah. I don't understand how they would be in for. So there would be DEA informants because they're ratting out people like Hamilton.

[B]

Not Hamilton. Hamilton is not an underground MDMA therapist. What you have?

[A]

No, but other folks. But Hamilton has been involved with, like, studying, like, the underground psych. The underground. The chemistry of the stu.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Not that he's doing it himself, but he's connected.

[B]

I get what you're saying.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, you're right. I think that. I think the idea is. I'm just. I'm just gonna speculate here. I think the idea is these people are giving people drugs in the underground and bad things are happening as a result. You know, bad things have happened, but, you know, am I going to go rat to the dea? Probably not. And I don't know that they did that. I'm not saying they did that. I don't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He. The burden of proof is upon him. He's already provided some. Some of the people that worked with them accused them of this. I don't know what the truth is, but I think the idea was that they were saying, hey, dea, there's some dangerous people and some sketchy people that are giving people drugs, and maybe there's some unsavory things taking place. That's what I assume he's accusing them of. You see what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Did you see his Callahan thing?

[A]

No, I did. I saw clips of it. I didn't see the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah, you know, Kelly, it was long.

[A]

No, I don't know him. I know who he is, but I've never talked to him.

[B]

Did you see him on there with the Nick Shirley guy?

[A]

No. I saw. I saw a recent clip of him hanging out with Shane Smith in Greenland.

[B]

Oh. Oh, they're in Greenland.

[A]

Yeah. He's, like, doing some weird New Vice 2.0 with Shane Smith and Greenland where they're, like, both reporting on together.

[B]

Oh. On Trump's promised acquisition.

[A]

When you're talking about the Nick Shirley thing, are you talking about where he edited him? Edited his interview? Yeah.

[B]

Well, the Shirley guy's accusing him of editing it to make him look stupid. But of course he didn't. And he did that on his own. Well, he was perfectly capable of doing that on his own.

[A]

Well, the Nick Shirley guy, he, yeah, he posted a bunch of clips on like how Callahan edited the interview down and like cut stuff out. But I, I don't think Callahan was purposely trying to make Shirley look. He was just trying to like make himself look smarter, I think.

[B]

Yeah, I don't, I mean when I, I watched the video to where he breaks down the editing, he essentially was just editing out junk, dead air. I mean, you know, like, I think the big, I think the, the clip that went viral is when he's like, do you something about who's benevolent? And he's like, what's that mean? But I mean look, Shirley's just not that articulate. Some people aren't whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I think, I don't, I don't know anything about his so called reporting, but he doesn't.

[A]

He's got some great videos. He goes out. So he surely was the guy who went out to Minnesota. Minnesota and exposed that, that daycare fraud. Right, Right.

[B]

But I think a lot of it was bunk. I think a lot of it he filmed and then later added there's no. Really. Well, there's, it's not. He didn't expose the fraud. The fraud was already investigation, there's no question.

[A]

Yeah, but he went out and interviewed him. Went in there like boots on the ground. Did like an old school vice style.

[B]

I shouldn't, I shouldn't say anything because I actually haven't watched it except for small clips. But I do know that some of the people that he looked into and I think he even admits this where he was just going to random daycares like where are the kids? Look, if your kids are at a daycare, do you want random dudes with cameras showing up? Are you going to be. Bring them out. Here's 20 kids. No, they're like, who the are you?

[A]

Like, even the places were empty. They were like, there's no.

[B]

Maybe they were some of it, some of it before they opened. So I don't, I think, I think two things at the same time. One, there was fraud going on. One, there's no question. Even the mayor of the city Frey said in the New York Times recently there was fraud taking place and it's very serious. This is all we need to know.

[A]

Sure. There's definitely fraud taking place.

[B]

Yeah. So what did, what role did Shirley play? I think I don't know enough about it to say what role he played. It seems to me that he played a popularization role that people didn't know this, that this was taking place and he brought a lot of media attention. Yeah.

[A]

Is that. I think until the riot started. Now no one's talking about it. Now it's all about the. Now it's all about the ice stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Ice riots.

[B]

But he's already made a name off of it and he's out. I think he's in now.

[A]

He's doing everything now he's covering everything.

[B]

He's going.

[A]

He's the guy.

[B]

Now we live in a crazy.

[A]

We do, bro. There's just too much. The grift is insane, man.

[B]

It is.

[A]

The level of grift in everything, in every aspect of everything is crazy.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

The good thing is it's easy to snuff out.

[B]

You know, I've, I've often, I've been thinking about most people with. When you. Okay, we have all these independent media organizations. We have YouTube, we've. The, the, the, the legacy institutions have been undermined. Most of them are collapsing. We talked about the Washington Post. This is good that there's more information. But if we're going to have an increase in information, meaning rather than it being filtered through a report, who may ignore certain things like the fraud, we don't want that. But if the, the level of information is going to increase, meaning you're getting this raw sewer of information, some of which is not.

[A]

Fire hose.

[B]

Fire hose, exactly. We must. I think that what follows that is that there must be an increase in sophistication of the consumer himself. And I think if not what people do is they don't know how to interpret the information. Most people are not trained to say, okay, what's the evidence we have? And then the next step, which is hard, how do you examine that evidence?

[A]

Of course not. Nor do they have the time.

[B]

Nor do they have the time or they want to. You know, I know a lot of people, I don't have time to do that, but they go home and then they watch tv. Well, I went to work all day. Yeah, well, I've been working blue collar jobs my whole life. I still find time. I do journalism on the side.

[A]

Right, right. You're obsessed with this stuff.

[B]

Time of steps was all this stuff. And I'm, you know, I'm someone who 50 years ago probably would have went into journalism, but by the time I got into it, it was already dead. Everything's dying. But anyway, the point Being is that I think we need to recognize that there has to be some way, if somebody could come up with something to. Maybe it just naturally happens, right? Maybe naturally in the beginning. We're kind of going through a rough time and maybe people will develop these skills of like, you know, that's, you know, I don't know about that.

[A]

Yeah, that's possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's definitely way too much. Way, way too much information. And now everyone's becoming their own reporter. Yeah. You know, everyone starts apart, everyone has a podcast, everyone reports on stuff. And, you know, which is not a bad thing inherently, as long as you're doing your best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, it just makes it. Especially when it comes to, like, finding the truth to stuff, it makes it way harder even for me. Like, it's my job to do that. And it's really hard to find the truth of stuff, figure out and to drill down. Because, you know, a lot the people that get the most attention online are the people that say the craziest shit. It.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And a lot of those people really don't back stuff up with, like, hardcore sources.

[B]

No, no, they don't. They don't even know where to find it.

[A]

And, and most people, majority of people don't even care. Don't even know to look for sources. Like, oh, this guy said it and he sounds really confident.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look, look at his follower count. This must be, this must be true.

[B]

Yes. I, I'm not going to say any names, but I often ask people, when people tell me something confidently, if you wanted to know, like, I was in a debate with someone from my hometown. Not a debate, but we're just talking. We're drinking beer, Talking. Yeah, we're doing. And they said, well, you know, something about increases in health and increase in lifespan and why that is. And I said, if you wanted to know, I said what my understanding is that increases in cleanliness and understanding germs and all of this increase to lifespan as much as medical advancements. Right. That, that, that knowing, like, hey, you should wash your hands before you perform surgery. Basic chin. And I said, if you wanted to know that, where would you look? You wouldn't know. You, you wouldn't believe how many people I talk to. And I say, if you wanted to know this, if you wanted to find out, where would you look? And people go, I don't know. A lot of people don't know that there are. Where the light. The libraries are empty. Yeah. GPT. Right. That's another whole. This is dystopian I didn't know that they could, they can vacuum up to all these books. Exactly. And they don't have to pay for it.

[A]

It's a one stop shop to get all of your information funneled right to one thing. All these AIs. It distills it all for you.

[B]

Horrible idea.

[A]

She just go to the, you go to the trough and you get your slop from one spot.

[B]

There you go. This is the perfect analogy. It's slop.

[A]

It's slop. It's exactly what it is. Your pigs eating slop.

[B]

Because it only knows what you feed into it. But also, I mean is your. I want to know what you think about this. Is I. Aren't they just sucking up books and information without pay? Aren't they sucking up information from the transcript of your podcast as well and they can use it for free?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That seems to be an infringement on your copyright.

[A]

Well, not only are they sucking stuff up wholesale, but they're also deliberately weeding out stuff that Google would weed out. Like, like Google is curly is obviously curated Google search. This was proven by many people, especially during the elections. Right. You couldn't Google a positive thing about Trump and find it to save your life. You couldn't Google a negative thing about Kamala. You know, that was very clear. There's been multiple studies that were done on that. So now extrapolate that AI now, now, now you don't have to like think I'm going to go to Google, I'm going to go to Bing, I'm going to go to DuckDuckGo, all these other ones and try to figure out what's right. No, I'm just going to go to ChatGPT and let them tell me what's right because it's, I don't have time to do anything else. And they are clearly going to be, you know. Yeah, the downstream effect, it just, it's compounded, it gets worse and worse.

[B]

What I did not anticipate, and this may show that I'm somewhat naive, is I didn't think people would so readily, easily and automatically turn to using it. But people I work with, people I know, everybody's just like chat GPT. I'm gonna ask it. It's like why? Yeah, I, I think the most important thing for people to know is, you know, you can say no. Does anybody in this country remember that when you could say no? The only freedom you have in this country is to say no or no, thank you, I don't want it, I don't need this. I don't need it. I don't. I've never used it. Why? What what is it offering?

[A]

A lot of analytical folks like to use it.

[B]

There are uses for. There's no question they're using it in medical studies. I'm talking about people using it for like when was Ronald Reagan the president? Or even even more sophisticated thing is. I mean that's fine because you're probably going to get a right answer. But I mean like say this FDA thing. Why was the fda, mdma, FDA new drug application rejected. There's no way it's. I would be curious what it said. Number one two, there's no way you can get an answer because nobody knows so many of these. I mean take the cause of World war whenever I took a class in Baltimore that was World War I and World War II and you we studied them together as a 30 year war. Well, one of the main things you have to study is Franz Ferdinand, the cause of the war. Well, the literature on Franz Ferdinand and the origins of World War I is you we could start reading it now and we'd be long dead before you ever finished it. Right. It's enormous. So how are you going to ask chat GPT and it know anything about this?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, it might tell you who it is and there is, it can

[A]

be useful for research type stuff. But I think the main problem is when people try to like tell me how to respond to this text.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Months ago I realized I was going through a can of those nicotine pouches every two days. And then my sleep started to get worse, my recovery started to feel slower and I couldn't figure out why. And then I picked up some ultra pouches and I'll tell you, the difference was incredible. Ultra gives me the same pouch experience. I actually like the burn, the little kick, the flavor, but without nicotine or caffeine. No jitters, no crash, no feeling wired at midnight. And my favorite part is they're actually packed with natural nootropics that actually help my focus and my memory. And what really surprised me was how much better I feel. Better, sleep better, workouts and recovery actually happening again. Nicotine messes with blood flow and stress hormones. Ultra doesn't. It's a way smoother flow state, especially if pre workouts tend to over stimulate you so I get to keep the habit without the vice holding me back. Ultra is the ultimate guilt free pouch, delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. New customers can use the code Danny for 15% off@take ultra.com. that's T A K E U L T R A dot com code. Danny, when they ask where you heard about him, please support the show and tell them we sent you.

[B]

I noticed in Gmail now it automatic. I hate it. I was talking to Rick Strassman a couple that when I was yesterday and at the top of the conversation it was like Rick said this and then Travis said this. I'm like, this is clearly military spy tools being presented as option or some can. It's. It's being offered as what? Convenience. Oh, now I can comb through my emails and this sums up at the top. And then whenever I hit respond it allows you. Now this is new to hit some button and it offers to respond for you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is.

[A]

What does that do? What's that going to do to us?

[B]

It's replace it. The whole goal.

[A]

How are we going to evolve?

[B]

We're not. The problem is we're going to devolve. That's what's happening. Intelligence is going down. Lifespan for certain groups is going down. Everybody's getting stupider.

[A]

It's a horror lifespan really going down for certain groups.

[B]

It is the deaths of despair crisis, which was white men between 30 and 45 who were dying of. They called deaths of despair, which were. Because they were poisoning. Well, there's a lot of reasons Naft. There's a. Again, another extremely rich literature around this. You know, the, the, the main one is the Deaton case analysis. I think they were at Yale as a husband and wife duo and they published all the research or they published. They're the ones who brought it to public attention. And it was people dying of mass poisoning. And you saw this. What's interesting is there was Aaron Mayte and Max Blumento run the Gray Zone. They published something a couple years ago showing that Larry Summers and some other people in Russia when perestroika happened and they transitioned from a communist economy to a capitalist economy, that they engineered certain conditions that mirrored American conditions. Unemployment, high unemployment, et cetera, et cetera. That caused a death of despair crisis over there that mirrored the one here. You know, there's a cliche of Russian men drinking themselves to death on vodka. You know, all these Russian women that come over here and they say, well, all the men over there are unemployed alcoholics. Yeah, well, yeah, so yeah, it's mass poisoning, meaning they're out, they're drinking themselves to death. Opioid addiction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Drug addiction, etc. Etc.

[A]

There definitely is like a very big problem with a lot of folks, I've noticed With just like a lack of meaning in life, you know, they can't find something. They're miserable because their job sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're unhappy. They're unfulfilled.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean I hear about it. I've been hearing about it a lot lately through like, you know, friends of friends.

[B]

Well, you. And you had that Verveki guy on here.

[A]

Oh God, he was great.

[B]

Yeah, that's something, you know, Roland Griffiths recommend. He said. This is. He sent me an email before he died and he said, Travis, this is someone who I find to be a deep thinker on these topics that we're discussing.

[A]

Yeah, he debated. He's good friends with Jordan Peterson. Has debated many times. He debated Jordan Peterson many times. Disagrees with him on a lot of stuff, but he was very, very.

[B]

What do you make of Peterson? Were you somebody who was interested in his work or not really?

[A]

Yeah, I was. When I first learned about him, I was definitely interested. I list. I definitely listened to a lot of it. I read a couple of his book. I've read one of his books.

[B]

What? The 12 rules.

[A]

The 12. I think one of those ones. No, the, the. The meaning ones.

[B]

Oh, Maps of Meaning, maybe.

[A]

I don't remember.

[B]

That was the big. I read most of that. That's a big 500 pound. 500 page whopper.

[A]

I read it in. The year I read it was 2017. So that will probably give you a better idea.

[B]

Probably 12's rule for life. I mean that was the first big, big seller.

[A]

That was probably it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I, I really, really enjoyed talking to Revaki because my problem with, with Peterson is I h. He. I have a really hard time understanding what the. He's talking about.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

He uses big words. He mixes it. So convoluted, vervey is easy to understand and digest. He makes it understandable for a dumb. Dumb like me, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And what is he, an academic? Is he a teacher or something? Professor.

[A]

Yeah. In Toronto, I think.

[B]

Oh, so he, he's a Canadian, like.

[A]

Yeah, Canadian. Yeah.

[B]

Peterson.

[A]

Same. Same exact background as Peterson.

[B]

Okay, interesting.

[A]

Yeah, he talked a lot about the same, A lot about the same stuff.

[B]

Yeah, the. The.

[A]

And consciousness. He's really into consciousness. Yeah.

[B]

The, the Peterson book. I feel the same way with Peterson. I don't. I'm in. You know, he's a drawing from Jung and Eliade and all of the. And also from that men's help movement like Iron John from the 80s. I don't know what the hell he's talking about at the time. He takes something very simple and turns it into something that's so confusing. I'm just like. I don't. I stopped listening. Like, I tuned out like three minutes ago trying to figure out what you're talking. I don't know. I mean, I'm not super smart, but I'm also not a complete idiot and I have no idea. And Maps of Meaning was the same way. Way. I mean, he's essentially in that book. He argues in one part. He says somehow we have to bridge or fuse the natural sciences with the occult sciences. So it's very Jungian, very much Eliad traditionalism, which. I'm into that stuff, you know, I'm interested. I have very, a lot of sympathy for that stuff. But I don't know, I couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about.

[A]

Yeah, he's trying to make it scientific.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Right, right. Does he. I'm assuming he has books as well?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he does have many books and he's part of a lot of. He's a part of a lot of research groups and research studies and stuff like that. He's doing a big one on consciousness. He did a big one on, like, I think, death and the fear of death. Wow. One of the crazy things. What blew my mind when I had him in here. I was asking him, I was like, what do you think happens when we die?

[B]

Then?

[A]

He's like. He was like. He's like, nothing. He's like. He. What did he say? He's like asking me. He goes. He goes. He goes, what do you think happens when the. When we die? He's like, that's like asking me what time it is on the sun.

[B]

He thinks, yeah, there's no way to know.

[A]

He thinks, he thinks what happens when we die? He thinks it's the same thing as before we're born. Yeah, well, it's just nothing. It's just we cease to. We cease. We cease to exist is what he strongly believes that.

[B]

Well, there's a lot of people who would, you know, disagree with him. But the thing is, there's nobody knows. I mean, this whole indestructibility of conscience, you know, this is all in the psychedelic stuff. Yeah, it's very hard to understand. I don't, I don't.

[A]

He grew up very, very hardcore Christian.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

His family?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Not surprising.

[A]

We had like a big, like a profound moment when he was young about Christianity.

[B]

Well, you know, psychology was essentially constructed in order to replace, as a secular, scientific replacement for religion. Right. And so you've right from the very beginning, you have people that are thinking, look, we can take what's good about. We can understand the human mind, we can take what's good about religion, but we can get rid of all of the myth. This is, you know, the basis of all the psychedelic stuff is William James. And William James thought this, look, why can't we have religion but get rid of all the superstition and all of the myth? Like, can't we just get rid of that and have the part that's good about it? And in fact, modern psychedelic renaissance, that's what was the aim.

[A]

The myth is just the stuff we can't measure. Right. I mean, this is what Epstein was talking about in that interview. Remember that, that interview that just came out with Epstein and Bannon.

[B]

Oh, with Bandit. I watched that.

[A]

Yeah, so did I. I just, I just listened. And he was talking about the same stuff. He's like, things like love the soul.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

These are the things that we can't measure. And these, like the, these are, these are like the divine mythological things that, you know, in the past that people would explain to be as, you know.

[B]

And what do you make of him? I find it very interesting that this is what he's talking about. I mean, part of it, I thought,

[A]

Dude, I had a guy in the podcast yesterday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is a. He worked in the Stargate program with the CIA. All the remote viewing stuff.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

He. He came out in the Epstein files. I was only. I was name Dean Raiden.

[B]

Oh, I know him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I don't know him personally, but I know his books.

[A]

I was just doing a quick research, a quick like background check on him

[B]

before I talked to him and what was it?

[A]

And they're like, oh, my God, Dean Raiden in the Epstein files. I looked it up. It was like a 20 minute Skype phone call, basically. And I asked him about it on the show.

[B]

What are you saying?

[A]

This was, this was a. A remote podcast that's only going to be on our Patreon. And essentially what he was saying, he's like, yeah, Epstein just hit me up one day and I knew this guy was like a billionaire who funded a lot of my colleagues. He, like, funded some of the smartest people I know. So of course I'm gonna do a 20 minute call with him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because he's, because he's always looking for funding for his research.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he got. He basically just sat there for 20 minutes and asked me to tell him stories about spoon bending and telepathy.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, all of this, you know, if he indeed is CIA or Mossad, I mean, the government has, as always, as you well know, a lot of interest in paranormal research, you know, because Epstein apparently was somewhat interested in a lot of the people that are involved in psychedelic research. I should say some of the people were also in the Epstein files. I mean, you're funny.

[A]

Psychedelic people.

[B]

Yeah. Like, say, Kimbal Musk, who's heavily involved. Elon Musk, brother, who's heavily involved in funding psychedelic research. His wife is the head of Brian Murarescu's nonprofit organization. A lot of the people involved in funding psychedelic research were friends of Jeffrey Epstein. It's a fact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There were also some other figures that appeared. I won't say their names because they seem to be, you know, some people.

[A]

A lot of the folks are innocent. You know, there's a lot of these research scientists.

[B]

They.

[A]

They never.

[B]

They didn't know, like you say, these people are desperate. Look, if you're going to give somebody who's going to give you a million dollars to try to bend spoons with your mind.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm probably going to take the money. I mean, now, if they knew who he was, they probably. I wouldn't. But they should probably know not to do that. That, like, look, where's the money coming from? And it's. It is weird, but.

[A]

What did you think about the interview, though, with Bannon and Epstein? What did you make of Epstein? His accent really threw me off. That's not what I was expecting.

[B]

I know. Yeah. The heavy, heavy New York.

[A]

I assumed he would have had a New York accent, but it was very, like, soft, gay spoken, you know, kind of feminine. Very feminine, yeah.

[B]

He's a weird guy, but he had

[A]

a testosterone level of 90. He had. He had like.

[B]

What does that mean? Mean?

[A]

Basically, he had, like, no testosterone in his system. Probably because he was 10 times a day and, like, eating Almond Joy bars all day.

[B]

Right. But here's what I thought about it. Bannon's. We know this. Bannon was trying to touch up his image so that he could come back into polite society because many people were shunning him. And so Bannon's job was. He was a publicity agent. That was what he was doing.

[A]

I believe that.

[B]

Well, it's what I don't. He doesn't even deny it. It.

[A]

Who doesn't deny it?

[B]

Bannon doesn't deny that's what he was doing. He said that's what he was.

[A]

I think that's probably a cover for something. I Don't know what it is.

[B]

Well, maybe that's true, but if we can believe. If we can believe Bannon in the evidence he was trying. Acting as a publicity agent. The. The context of the video is that he's creating a little documentary to try to show to people. So what I made in the video was, is they're trying to give him this. Well, this is this big intellectual, and he does seem like he's interested in this stuff. Stuff. But notice what, they don't talk about any of his crimes. They mentioned it at the end. He's like, do you think you're the devil himself? Or something like this. But I think all it was was they were trying to provide this veneer that this guy's not CIA, he's not Mossad, he's not a child or this. What he is is he's, you know, one of the great minds of our time. And everything that he was saying was boilerplate. You can read in a New Age book published on inner traditions in 1980.

[A]

Some of the finance stuff he was talking about was really, really good, though. Like, he's like. You can tell he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the high finance.

[B]

He does. But did you main response to a lot of that stuff as he was saying, we don't know. It's like magic. We don't know most. Nobody knows how it works. We don't know how it works. And he was talking about the butterfly effect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so definitely smart.

[A]

He's definitely smart.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think there's different types of intelligences. And would he be smart if you dumped him in the middle of the Amazon? Probably not so smart. I don't think I'd want him with me. But if you're talking about criminal act, global criminal activity, yeah, I think he's real smart.

[A]

He seemed like one of those guys whose brain's moving twice as. Twice as fast as his mouth can move. You know, he's trying to catch up.

[B]

Yeah. And he also. I mean, he just comes off as very, to me, very creepy and scary. I mean, he comes off as a creep. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. My. My whole thing about the. The image revival by Bannon, I don't know if I buy that, because Bannon literally. Bannon literally drove there the day.

[B]

This was a larger. This was a large. This is not just this one interview. There is. There are dozens, if not hundreds of emails that I've read that nobody questions the validity of them up to where they are discussing this. I don't. I think it's completely non controversial.

[A]

What do you think. What do you think about. About Bannon's demeanor during the whole thing? Like. Like Bannon was. Was being very harsh towards him.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

Yeah. He's like you're. He's like you're trying to say you don't measure. He's like, your whole job, your whole life, your whole existence is based measuring and weighing and analyzing people. He's like, anything you say a contrary to that is a lie and you know it.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I buy that. Yeah. I thought some of. I mean, went back and forth between fawning. You're one of the smartest people in the world. You're one of the best. I mean, why didn't they let you out of prison to save us from the 2008 financial crash? I mean, if this guy's any smarter than Jamie diamond or something, I doubt it. He's just a criminal. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, he was. He was needling him on some stuff, but then sort of went back and forth between fawning praise and trying to. I mean, but it also was an interview, so he was trying to get something out of him. And everybody has their own technique to try to get some, you know, get something out of somebody. I don't, you know, that's. That's. In the end, we would have to know what his ultimate goal was. And there's no final product. It looked like it was going. He even. Someone mentioned 60 Minutes. It seemed to be. It was going to be a. It looked like from the shot, it was going to be a kind of 60 minutes type thing. So. Hell, I don't know. You know, this is one of these things to where you just go, go.

[A]

I don't know what the hell it's like. Yeah, I don't know either.

[B]

It kind of goes to what we

[A]

were talking about earlier with all the information coming out. Like, this is just too much for people, man. This is like flooding the zone.

[B]

Well, in the.

[A]

Especially when you have the Bush Yacht eating babies, intestines and like, you so.

[B]

And there's anonymous FBI tips in there. Anybody. It's like the HR department. Anybody can say anything. We can send a tip right now. That's like Danny Jones, I saw him eating a baby. It's like anybody can say, did you see the one that was like, push a T and Jay Z or screwing Harvey Weinstein?

[A]

I think that's fake. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's also This. I mean, there's also on top of fake.

[B]

Stop sending emails.

[A]

On top of the Epstein files, there's also loads and loads of fake files that are going out. Fake emails, like the one about Satoshi Nakamoto, about, like, how on the day bitcoin was created, somebody faked an email. You can probably find it on Google very easily where Epstein's emailing Ghisane or something like that and saying, oh, our little satoshi pseudonym is working perfectly. Our new little project. They call it Project Bitcoin or something.

[B]

So what do you. What is your working theory of what exactly he was up to? Do you have one?

[A]

Epstein in general?

[B]

Yeah. Just Epstein in general? Yeah. Do you have one?

[A]

I mean, I. I don't really have like a very buttoned up theory on it, but I have kind of like a loose idea of what I think. You know, it's very clear that he had that. Those close ties to the guy at the Dalton School who was Bar. Bar's dad. Right. Who wrote that book about the intergalactic child traffickers.

[B]

This is too weird.

[A]

And then Maxwell, Robert Maxwell, the guy who founded Pergam, the Throne of Satan, died.

[B]

Oh, his press was called Pergamum.

[A]

Pergamon Press, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I don't know. This is.

[A]

And when. So when he died on his yacht in, like, the early 90s or that. That guy was worth billions. Right. That is precisely when Epstein got mega rich. He was rich before that, but after that is when he got just insanely rich and bought some of his biggest houses and all that stuff. So I think it makes the most sense that he, like, trusted Epstein and gave. Put all of his money under Epstein's name.

[B]

Oh, I thought you were going to say he knocked him off.

[A]

No, I think. I think I like Georgiani's theory about how Epstein died or not Epstein. I'm sorry. How Robert Maxwell died. Like, he. He thinks that the Mossad killed him.

[B]

Well, that's what. There's a book out about this, and I just ordered it, that says that he told the Massad, look, my media empire is crumbling. You better give me all this money or I'm going to go to the press and start talking about what's going on.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the thesis of the book.

[A]

He got that funeral in. In Israel and all that stuff. All those people attended it. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And, you know, I. I think it's just very obvious that he was. He started out as a. An access agent. You know, he was a billionaire running around doing all this stuff. He was an access agent for Israeli, probably Saudi, probably many, probably many governments were. He was probably just taking money from whoever, giving people information, getting blackmail on people for. For his own. Own means and for their ends. And I think to. To the CIA's discredit, they probably missed it for a while. And then later on down the line, the CIA or the FBI got wind of it and they were like, holy, how did we not see this? And they probably went to him and said, hey, we see what you're doing. If you want to keep doing this, you're going to pay us a tax. So I think he probably was like at least a double agent with Israel in the U.S. yeah.

[B]

Weird, man. It does seem to be a peak inside the machinations of the global scientific atheist elite. I mean, that's. I thought. It's just so weird that he's funding all the scientific research, but he's also funding a lot of the art stuff. Did you see a couple people step down yesterday? David Ross, who was at a big art school and somebody else.

[A]

I didn't see any of that.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people in the art world and he was. Some of the emails were pretty.

[A]

Well, the art stuff's like synonymous with money laundering too. All the fine art world.

[B]

Right. Yeah. I watched that documentary about the Miami. What's that?

[A]

Art Art Art Basel.

[B]

Yeah, that happens in Miami. And all of the fake stuff. Have you ever seen that documentary F for Fake? No, it's about, you know, Orson Welles who made Citizen Kane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He made a documentary that's fantastic. Called F for Fake. That's about his interest in magic. But one of the subjects of it. Well, there's two subjects. One was El Greco, who was a painting forger. And you could show him. You could. I mean, he knew all of these painters so well that he could knock a Van Gogh or anybody used to be like, hey look, I need a Van Gogh. By about 6pm he'd knock it out. And in the documentary, you see, they go to the biggest art galleries in the world. Hey, we got a Van Gogh, a new Van Gogh. Oh, wonderful. Here's $2 million. They bring the money back to him. Yeah, he ended up getting caught. And the other one is this guy that wrote this fake book about. Not Henry Ford, what's his Name? Name. Leonardo DiCaprio played him. He was a pilot. Who was that? Rich billionaire DiCaprio played Henry Hughes. Henry Hughes? Henry Hughes, he. Howard Hughes. He claimed that he wrote this book about Howard Hughes with his cooperation, but it ended up being fake. But he. He plays Wells very skillfully. Plays on this. What is reality? It's. You should watch it.

[A]

It's interesting.

[B]

Yeah, Orson. Mel's an interesting, Interesting guy. Guy.

[A]

Yeah. We had a guy on here not too long ago who was telling us this whole background. He. He. He made a documentary about a guy who was an art forger and how he linked up with this billionaire who was basically having him forge fake art so he could launder money.

[B]

This is Orson Ralser, the guy you had?

[A]

No, a guy. A different guy. A guy I had on the show.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Who. And they were like, this billionaire was laundering all this money, having this guy make fake art like. Like duplicates of, like, Picassos and all kinds of stuff. And. And Rembrandts.

[B]

Same thing. Did documentary on the guy who was selling the million dollar bottles of wine that he was going to Trader Joe's and buying all their wine. And then he would make labels.

[A]

Is this the Sour Grapes documentary?

[B]

I can't remember. It's an Asian guy, but he was like, little two buck chuck a little of this other $1 wine, slap a fake label on it, and bam. I was like, wow. It just shows you what all of this stuff is.

[A]

No. Yeah. This guy was telling us how, like, during the Cold War, the CIA was funding, like, Jackson Pollock and the whole fine art movement as, like a propaganda war against the Soviet Union.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Trying to say that, like, you know, we were just as artsy fartsy as them. And our civilization is flourishing because we, you know, we have all these creatives that are doing this fine art and it's making all this money and it was like. Jackson Pollock.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Yeah. The State Department funds that stuff because they did that with jazz musicians, too. They were all over the world. And then there was a. I don't know if you remember, Mint Press News published something to where the State Department hired Lear Cohen and Russell Simmons, and they were doing the same thing with rappers and other. Oh, yeah, other people to where they were using them.

[A]

Cuba.

[B]

CIA.

[A]

Cuba.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Russell Simmons is in hot. Isn't. Isn't he hiding? You know, Russell Simmons, who started Def Jam Records, started Def Jam Records. And then I think they accused him of a bunch of me too stuff. And then he fled to Thailand and hasn't come back.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, major, you know, it was Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons started Def Jam, you know.

[A]

No way. I didn't know.

[B]

Run dmc, everything, you know, I'm sure it's got to be Billion Billion dollar empire by now.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

There you go. Oh.

[A]

In 2025, Def Jam Records co founder Rich Russell Simmons faces ongoing legal battles, including new lawsuits filed in 24 and 25 regarding sexual assault misconduct spanning several decades. More than 20 women have accused him. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. He was a.

[A]

He currently resides in Bali.

[B]

Yeah, he ran. Yeah. Big figure. In my youth when hip hop was just, you know, getting huge, he was, he was a very visible, visible figure. I guess now nobody knows who the hell he is. Maybe. I'm sure he's very happy about that.

[A]

Yeah. No way.

[B]

Yeah. Does he doesn't look familiar to you?

[A]

Yeah, he definitely looks familiar. I definitely know who this guy is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you've ever shopped online, chances are you've purchased from a business. Powered by Shopify. It's easy to spot the purple Shop pay button. That's what we use for our merch store. The purple button has all your payments and shopping info, so you don't have to track down your card or hope your browser remembered your payment info. There's a reason why so many businesses use Shop Shopify, and that's because they make it incredibly easy to run and start your own business. It's the business behind the business that really matters. And that's where Shopify excels. With convenient tools and workflows, Shop Pay has the best converting checkout on the planet. Meaning fewer abandoned carts and way more sales. That's a game changer. You can spread your brand's word with the built in marketing and email tools. Don't want to build your own page? Shopify has hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates to express your brand and forget the code. Like Daylight Computer, whose website is gorgeous. So if you've got a product, a dream, and a drive to make it happen, Shopify is the platform that helps you do it with ease. Because businesses that sell sell more with Shopify. See less abandoned carts and more sales. Go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/danny jones. All lowercase again. That's shopify.com/dannyjones. Shopify.com/danny joneS. Amanita Mascaria is the third most microdosed psychedelic in the US with 3 million people reportedly using it. But with the dangerous wave of fake stuff out there at gas stations, sitting next to the boner pills and the scratch offs, who knows how many people are getting scammed out of the real deal. And that is why I use the world's most trusted source of Amanita Mascaria Amantara. I would have never even touched Amanita Mascaria if it weren't for Amantara. Most head shops have synthetics, unreliable sources or don't even contain mushrooms at all and it damages our perception of the real thing. Amantara is the complete and total opposite. They are the largest Amanita supplier in the United States which is totally legal, ethically sourced, lab tested, and they work directly with forging families around the world. This isn't a side hustle or a scam, it's a serious operation. Real Amanita mascara tastes natural, like a tea, not a synthetic artificial chemical. And the experience feels clean with no weird edge or synthetic vibe. I take a few capsules a couple nights a week when I get home from work and it makes a house full of screaming toddlers far more bearable. And I'm just exuding love and not being overstimulated. If you can imagine being in a stressful environment and not feeling triggered, that's what it's like. Imagine having infinite patience. If you're curious about Amanita, don't grab something random off the gas station counter. Use the legitimate and trusted professionals. Amantara's 500 milligram capsules and gummies are consistent and beginner friendly. Two to three capsules is a great starting point. Check out the gentle, soothing, relaxing effects of Amanita mascaria. Go to amantara.com go dj and use the code dj22 for 22% off your first order. That's a M N T A R A dot com, go slash dj and use the code dj22for 22% off your first order. Dude, this Epstein stuff though is like like these files, all the stuff that was just released, like if that's real, that's like civilization ending type of stuff. That's like that could like take down the whole American empire. Like if people start to realize that our world is run by these people, these, these Rothschilds and, and people like this. And you have like people like ahud, Barack and Epstein talking about how to profit off of civil wars in different African countries. Like wow, emails like oh yeah, look at this new civil war that's going on in you know, Kenya or Nigeria.

[B]

Well I think a lot of cynical people, including myself have believe this is the way the world works for a long time. Time.

[A]

Yeah, this just confirms it.

[B]

It's just confirms it. Yeah. And a lot further. Pizza gate.

[A]

All this stuff about pizzas and grape soda, like what do you do with this stuff?

[B]

Man, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, how. What appetite will the press have in resources to go through this and publish really good reporting? Because we've, we know we've got a lot of garbage social media stuff like running with everything, but hopefully there are some people who have put some resources towards seriously looking into it and trying to examine what if it is real and what other of is not. Unfortunately, we live in a landscape like we talked about earlier to where there may not. They may particularly these elite institutions like the New York Times who've done some good reporting on Epstein, might be like, you know, maybe not. Let's try to get past this. I mean, it doesn't look good.

[A]

No. There's this guy, Ryan Grimm. Yeah, yeah, he's great from drop Site News. He's amazing. He's been doing a lot of really good deep dive stuff on, on the Epstein files. I don't know what he's done since the new drop came out, but before this he's been doing a lot of really good stuff.

[B]

Doing incredible. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. They, in my opinion, they've been doing the absolute best reporting on all this stuff. Like you said, even before the latest drop, they were doing great. Just unbelievable stuff.

[A]

There's this guy, Peter Atia. Have you heard of him?

[B]

Yeah, he was me. He was.

[A]

He's like a super famous doctor.

[B]

I'd never. Who.

[A]

He wrote a book all about longevity not too long ago. I think it was last year he published a book about longevity. I mean he's been on all the biggest podcasts. He's a really big podcast. I'm himself.

[B]

So you already knew who he was before this?

[A]

Oh, yeah. I'd followed him for years before this and what.

[B]

It's like an Andrew Hooverman. This is how you can optimize your health.

[A]

Sort of like an Andrew Huberman type guy. He's. He's not. Yeah, very similar to that. But he's got his like his own practice. You know, Huberman's not like a physician.

[B]

Oh yeah. He's like a neuroscientist or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, I remember when that book came out. Everybody was reading it. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that was him.

[A]

So he was in, he was, was. There's a. There was like almost 2000 emails between him and Epstein.

[B]

And what was the nature of the discussion?

[A]

I mean, there was one where he, he. You could probably find him, Steve. There was one where he said to Epstein, like, oh, yes, is indeed low carb. Mr. Epstein. All this stuff which is like, that's kind of like whatever. But then there was like other ones where he's talking about meeting. So in his book. Allegedly. I haven't read his book, but one of my friends told me that he read his book and there's a, there's a, A chapter in his book where he talks about this, this really pivotal, pivotal moment in his life where he. This crazy decision because his wife had just given birth to their third or fourth baby and his baby was in like critical, critical condition in the hospital in Texas and his wife was also not doing well. And like he had to make this really life changing decision, big decision, whether to take this business meeting in New York or go and be with his wife and his baby who's like on. In critical condition. And he said he made the hard choice to, to handle business in New York. And he's. Epstein files corroborate what he was doing in New York. He was meeting with Epstein and staying in one of Epstein's apartments.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Which is like, there's no coming back, dude. This guy's done. This guy's completely cooked. His career is over now. Wow.

[B]

And what he had been in the news because. Oh. Because Barry Weiss had. Had hired him for cbs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now what a disaster this looks like.

[A]

Peter says your biggest problem, you. You. The biggest problem with being friends with you is the life you lead is so outrageous. And I can't tell a soul.

[B]

Wow. And. Oh, yeah.

[A]

And one of the worst parts about this whole thing is the guy's email is jee vacation gmail.com.

[B]

yeah, there's some disturbing stuff in this. Some of the emails with his brother are very disturbing. And, and the brother has been on Pierre's Morgan and has been out defending him. And now he's a scumbag too. The brother.

[A]

The brothers a scumbag now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. It's so graphic. I don't even want to discuss it. But I mean, he was discussing Epstein, outright discussing. Where do you. What doctors do you bring your victims to? He used the word victims and discussing torture and other things. And now maybe it's fake, but I don't think so. But yeah, I too thought, oh, the brother was like, they killed my brother. We need to look into this now. It looks like he's also a scumbag.

[A]

Have you heard of the Michael Wolf guy who's been doing all the reporting on it?

[B]

The President? Yeah, the guy.

[A]

So Michael Wolf. Yeah, he's been reporting. Reporting on the Epstein stuff for a long time.

[B]

Yeah, he had a lot of interviews.

[A]

He's the one who, you know, settled this up about Trump. There's been, like, actual recordings of Trump and like, he accuses of Trump of being friends with him for over 10 years. There's actually, I think, recordings, audio recordings of him interviewing Epstein.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And he asked Epstein about Trump. Epstein's like, we were friends for more than a decade.

[B]

Yeah. Which is true.

[A]

And one of the things that Epstein's brother said to Michael Wolf was Epstein's brother said. No, I think actually Epstein's brother minus said this on a. On the PBD podcast. He said that he was on the phone with his brother Jeffrey leading up to the 2016 election with. Between Trump and Hillary. And he said Jeffrey Epstein told his brother, he said, if they knew what I knew about Trump and Hillary, they'd cancel the whole election.

[B]

Yeah. God.

[A]

And you know, there's also this stuff like. Yeah, Epstein wrote himself a bunch of emails all the time.

[B]

Those. The ones about Bill Gates?

[A]

About Bill Gates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you want to use me for all this stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Use me. And then you want me to help you with this STD with you and this Russian lady and help you sneak. Sneak drugs, antibiotics to your wife so she doesn't get the STDs, blah, blah, blah. And like all this stuff. It's obvious that it's blackmail.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I think so too.

[A]

So.

[B]

And what did. It was Milan. I read also. I don't know this true, but didn't they say Melania also was one of these. You know, he was trafficking in these Russian girls for his modeling agency. Was she one of these people?

[A]

Yeah, well, allegedly, according to Michael Wolf, that's how Trump met Wolf.

[B]

Oh, okay, so that's almost a true.

[A]

Yeah, apparently Michael Wolf, he's kind of a gossip.

[B]

He's kind of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I've heard dubious. I've heard weird things about Michael Wolf. I don't know how accurate, how.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, he's got a bent, clearly against Trump, so there's that.

[B]

Yeah. I think he's more of a sort of a gossip reporter or something.

[A]

But I mean, if even 20 of the Michael Wolf says is true, that's goddamn crazy.

[B]

And it probably is probably more than that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. I didn't know he. I remember when Outlive came out, and that was a huge book. I didn't not connect those two things. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Hey, man, that poor guy, bro.

[B]

Well, I mean, you can't, you can't,

[A]

you can't outlive that.

[B]

Yeah. One of the things I'll say that this guy, if you, maybe Steve, you can look him up. But David Ross, who resigned yesterday because of his emails between Epstein. One of the things that Epstein wanted to do was he said, hey, let's have an art exhibit for Polanski. Broman. Polanski's handlers had approached him and he said, look, why don't we do an art exhibit to where we have all of these people of that, you know, they're eight, they're, they're 13, but they look 18. And we're going to try to make, trick people out and saying, see, you thought they were of age. And he says, the point of this is that, hell, we don't know how, how old these people are. And the Ross who resigned yesterday said, oh, this is brilliant. God, you're a genius. What? The thing about the Epstein thing that I find most grotesque, not most grotesque, but one of the things I find grotesque is just what bootlickers, all of these high end academics and scientists and all these people are. You're a genius. Oh, my God. All of your ideas are great.

[A]

They want his money.

[B]

So funny. I know. It's like, how gross. I mean, if you're from that world, people go, well, okay, that's just the way that it works. But if you're not, if you're a regular everyday American, you look at this and you go, God confirms all of the worst stereotypes of these people, that they are soulless hacks. Yeah, it's gross.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't know about the Polanski thing. That's kind of crazy.

[B]

Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy resigned yesterday. The emails were.

[A]

I mean, when did that happen?

[B]

Few. It looked like it was 2017, something like that.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. And he was another one who was like, God, you're being treated so unfairly. Cheese. I mean, they're just really dragging you through the mud, which is something that, you know, I think one of the biggest revelations that's came out of it, one of the most shocking for me personally, the most shocking is the stuff with Noam Chomsky. Oh, yeah. I couldn't.

[A]

We were just looking at that other day.

[B]

He, he's like, what should I do about this? And Chomsky's like, just ignore it. He goes, these women are. These abused women are just being hysterical. I was like, wow. I interviewed him at MIT once.

[A]

Chomsky.

[B]

Yes, I was. You Know, very. I coming from, like, a rural place, you know, I'm from a very conservative religious place. When I first read his books when I was like, 19 or 20, I really opened up the world for me. I was like, I never read any of these things. You know, my dad's a Vietnam veteran, but I had never even thought. Thought about, you know, what was the Vietnam War about? You know, global affairs, American history. I just had never thought about these things. Yeah, you know, I come from a country place. We play sports and run around on the back roads and do what people in rural places do. So I really admired him. So much so that I went and interviewed him and put it online. You know, it's got a million or something views. And I interviewed him about religion because I was even interested in religion then. And so I just thought he was someone of unimpeachable integrity. And along with a lot of other people, it wasn't just me. Me. So the revelation's about him. And then, you know, so there's been. Yasha Levine did a piece on. There's a book called Decoding Chomsky, I guess his work in linguistics, from what I understand.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't know he's a linguist till that almond podcast I did with the other guy.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, this. This kind of ties into the psychedelic stuff because he got big and it's. It's worth reading. The article is he went after Skinner, B.F. skinner, who's, you know, famous. Famous Harvard psychologist who came. Came up with, you know, the Skinner box theories on human behavior. He's also a fascinating guy.

[A]

What was his whole thing?

[B]

His whole thing was behaviorism. It was that modifications in the external environment are how you can control behavior. So he did experiments with rats in a box. But he's also. He wrote a utopian novel called Walden 2. And he wrote. He basically ended up arguing in one of his. There's a. You know, the show Firing Line with William Buckley. It's an interview show. Show like this. Really fine. One of your great predecessors, he interviews Skinner because he had written this book. I think it's called Freedom in Behavior. I haven't read it in a while, but it's called Freedom in Behavior to where he said, look, we're going to have to take away freedom, and scientists are going to have to run the society because people. People can't handle freedom. This was kind of an idea that Erich Fromm wrote a book called Escape from Freedom. And he said, look, people can't handle freedom. They don't know what to do. Let's have scientists control the society, and we're going to design a model society. And though you may lose freedom, you're going to really enjoy this. And he. And there's a debate on the Buckley show where he debates this idea. He doesn't win the debate, but he's a very interesting guy. He's a brilliant guy. Very, very interesting guy. Extremely influential in psychology. Maybe the major psychologist.

[A]

He was arguing for this idea.

[B]

He wrote a book on it. Arguing for it of. Of actually, you know, this is an elite at Harvard. He's arguing we ought to do this.

[A]

Well, he might be right. Like if. If you could put your. If you could put your. Put on the shoes of some of these, you know, super trillionaires, like the Rothschilds and these folks that allegedly run the world. Yeah. You know, that's probably what you're going to be thinking about, is how to control society and how to make, you know. And how to ensure your survival and the survival of your offspring and your family line. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And I think so. That's how Chomsky got big, was in the New York Review of Books. He attacked Skinner and he attacks this book and he. It's worth reading because I. It's one of the things that I didn't read. I knew that's how he made his reputation, so I just assumed it was this. You know, you're just like, hey, this guy's fame. You know, this guy's got a great reputation. I went back and read it. It's kind of incredibly weak. Anyway, I guess his ling. His linguistic work has. Was valuable to the military in constructing AI, and that's why the Pentagon was funding Chomsky's work. He's been funding. But, you know, the MIT is just an extension of the state system. It's funded by the state. The military. Yeah, Pentagon. And so he's been funded by the military. For years. People had been pointing that out, saying, hold on, you're this harsh critic of Chomsky, US Militarism, but also you're funded by the military. Now, he acknowledged this, but I never had. I never thought, well, why would someone care. These abstract theories about universal grammar, et cetera, et cetera. Why would the military be interested in it? But it was language models and AI. Yeah. Tom. The great journal. Late journalist Tom Wolf. His last, last book is called Kingdom of Speech, and it's a takedown of Chomsky. And it's very, very much worth reading. It's very short, and it's very funny.

[A]

Kingdom of speech.

[B]

Called Kingdom of speech. It's hysterical. And it's about a guy who basically debunked Chomsky's theory of universal grammar. And he and everyone else went out of their way to completely destroy this guy.

[A]

What is that? Theory of universal grammar?

[B]

I wish I could explain it, but I can't. It's. It's so abstract to me. I don't know. I couldn't explain it to you. I don't know enough about linguistics. It's. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, this is interesting. I mean, it kind of goes back to one of the things Epstein said in that interview, too. He's like, reading and writing is bad for us. He's like. It's like trying to fit meaning and think and meanings into, like, little words and teaches us to think in this, like, rigid, conformed way.

[B]

Way.

[A]

And they started talking about Socrates and all this stuff. Very, very vague. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's all observation. I mean, everything he was saying, you can read in New Age books. Look, with Newton, everything became measurable phenomena. And we need to move past this. What I thought was interesting about that is it does give you a peek into the global elite and what their idea is for the future. Anyway. Yeah, anyway, the. The. The. On the Chomsky stuff. Oh, the Tom Wolf book. The. The fir. The second half is about Chomsky, but the first one is a takedown of Charles Darwin, which is also hilarious. Anyway, I won't go too deep into it, but it's. It's fascinating.

[A]

Yeah, dude. Some of the. Some of the. And the experiments that the Pentagon and DARPA and the CIA have been involved in over the years is, like, sickening. Like, what were they really doing? Like, what. Like here. The mice Utopia thing.

[B]

Right. Yeah, I saw that show. That was a great show you did.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

Yeah, that was a great show.

[A]

I forget who.

[B]

What was her name? Oh.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that was the. That was the woman.

[B]

She's got a new book out.

[A]

Yes, she did. She studied mind control and, like, MK Ultra.

[B]

Lot of it was about. Who's the guy who they said is in that? You. You were. You showed a picture and it was with Stanley Kubrick.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Jolly West.

[B]

Jolly west, yes.

[A]

Who. Who was tied into NK Ultra, into K. Chaos.

[B]

The book, the Chaos.

[A]

He was all in chaos. Tom o' Neal did a crazy. A crazy background on Jolly west. And this lady, Rebecca Laav was her name. And she did a. She was, like, blowing my mind was.

[B]

That was one of the best shows.

[A]

His wife and his son Committed suicide.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Jolly west was a psycho, man. Really? And he was attached to all the creepy, all the craziest. He was attached to MK Ultra. He was att, like, connected to Jack Ruby. He was. He went in and visited Jack Ruby right before he went insane, Maine, after he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. And there's also that photo. I don't know if that photo is real. It looks real. We should ask AI what they think about it. But there's that photo of him on the set of 2001 Space Odyssey. Like, we corroborated with her. We're like.

[B]

Because she said that was.

[A]

She's a historian on Jolly West. So we did, like, the math. There's the photo.

[B]

And where is West?

[A]

That's Jolly west right there in the back with.

[B]

Oh, in the back right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He kind of looks like Al Hubbard.

[A]

That is. So that's. Look at Kubrick. That's Kubrick right there. And that's. What's his name?

[B]

Arthur C. Clark.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man. Another genius.

[A]

And she's like, okay, what year was 2001 Space Odyssey? Oh, okay. What year did they shoot it? Where did they shoot it? Okay, that's. That's what he would have looked like during that year before he grew a beard. Look at the hairlines, man. They're perfect. Yeah. I mean, look at the photos of him on the left, right?

[B]

So the one on the right, to the right there next to the MK Ultrabook. That is him. Just to the right of that right there.

[A]

Where this is right here.

[B]

That's really him. We know.

[A]

Yes. That's 100%. Yeah.

[B]

It does kind of look like him. Pictures can be deceiving, but if that's

[A]

Photoshop, that's pretty good Photoshop that. This photo was really hard to find. So, like, if he was attached to 2001 Space Odyssey and this guy's responsible some of the most crazy, deceptive stuff the government was doing during the Cold War. Like, what does this have to do with the moon landing? Right.

[B]

Have you. I saw 2001, and at one Christmas, and I was living in Baltimore, and at DC, they projected it in 70mm, which is the. The way it was, you know, 70mm film, IMAX. No, it wasn't IMAX. It was just at the American Film Institute, and, dude, it was amazing.

[A]

What is it? What size is Imax film?

[B]

It's 65.

[A]

78 mm.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So the same. I think. I think it's 70 mm, but then some of them are 65. I don't.

[B]

I don't I've been to Imax, but I don't exactly know what it is.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know exactly. It's just the size.

[B]

It's just a massive.

[A]

It's huge. Yeah. And a lot of the footage, footage that was shot during the. I recently watched the Apollo 11 documentary on Netflix and they used a lot of the original footage that they were filming, like on the ground, like when the rocket was launching of the people that were watching it and, like, what was going on with the astronauts, like, while they were preparing and stuff. And I was, like, watching it on tv and I was, like, blown away by the quality of this footage. I'm like, wow, this is an amazing reenactment that they. They did. And I just recently had this guy on, Tim D. Dodd, who said that. No, they were filming all that in IMAX back then. That's why the footage looks so amazing today.

[B]

Wow. Have you been to this thing in Las Vegas? So what is it called? The Dome and the Sphere. The Sphere, yeah.

[A]

I have not been to that. Have you been there?

[B]

No, I haven't, but it looks cool.

[A]

Yeah, it looks pretty cool. Apparently AI Lo said they're putting a bunch of, like, telescopes on top of it to try to, like, find more interstellar objects.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. But no, the jolly west of Is. Is creepy. He. So he was a part of that. That. In Tom o' Neill's book, that hate Ashbury Clinic where they were doing studies on amphetamines and psychedelics. Right. Or acid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was LSD and amphetamines mixed together. And that's where.

[B]

Yeah. Hell of a combination.

[A]

Yeah, bro.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What do you make of that book?

[B]

I thought it was great. I loved it. I mean, I didn't buy all of the. I don't know about the. Its main thesis.

[A]

What is the main. The man, he didn't really come to a conclusion, right. Because he didn't have any smoking gun, but he basically. Basically had all the pieces put together. He had. He had the whole puzzle put together, but there was one centerpiece missing right there.

[B]

He couldn't exclusively say, which would have been that Manson was MK Ultra.

[A]

It was. Without us with beyond a shadow of a doubt. We know that he was getting very special treatment from the Feds.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

He was getting let out of prison when he shouldn't have been let out of prison. He was being visited by CIA connected people. The CIA was funding that clinic that he was going to all the time.

[B]

Time. Yeah, I. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of crazy Coincidences. My. I've. I've studied the Manson case for, you know, pretty. I've. I should say this. I've had a very strong interest in it. You know, Manson was from Kentucky, from eastern Kentucky, and so we don't want to claim him, but he was.

[A]

He had a up child.

[B]

Hillbilly musician. Yeah. His mom like, traded him for a bottle of whiskey and I had a

[A]

little monkey, sent him to the country.

[B]

He's got, man. You know, I. Whatever. I don't want Sharon Tate's family coming after me. But, you know, some of those songs are. Are pretty good.

[A]

What's that song, girl? See if you can find that song on YouTube. What's the song? What's. Where he's singing about the monkey.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I don't know what it's called, but I know the song you're talking about. The album is called lie and it's got the garbage dump, My garbage dump. But then Guns N Roses, of course covered look at your Game Girl, which is probably his best most welcome known song. It's a Time for Living. Yeah, that's a cool song. And he's got a good voice. You know, he wasn't like a great musician, but his voice is great and he's a pretty good songwriter. Even Neil Young said this guy is a great songwriter.

[A]

So this it. Oh, just called Monkey. Let's hear it.

[B]

D.

[A]

He was a monkey Just like a monkey all you monkeys.

[B]

He lived in a tree he fell in love with a chimpanzee and every time he. Hold.

[A]

Come on, girl, there a monkey. Dude, he's got moxie.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He had plenty of time to practice, that's for sure. Yeah,

[A]

That's catchy, bro.

[B]

Play, Steve, play. Look at your game, girl. That's his best song.

[A]

You know, when Marilyn Manson film recorded his first. Not his first album, like second, his most popular album, Antichrist Superstar, he rented out the sh. The Tate house.

[B]

Well, Trent Reznor owned it.

[A]

Oh, did he?

[B]

Trent Reznor did the Downward spiral there.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And then Sharon Tate's family gave him so much hell, he got out of there.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And then he moved to New Orleans.

[A]

So they recorded that Antichrist Superstar album in that house.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. And he took the door with him. Resner did, and I think put it in the studio in New Orleans.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Cuz he was. They went to New Orleans and he was doing a super project that was Phil and Selmo from Pantera and down Super Junk Ritual, Maynard James Keenan from Tool. Yeah. Trent Reznor and then one other one. I think it was called Tapeworm. You can find it online. Pretty cool. I'm. That would have been killer if they would have done that.

[A]

All right, play this one.

[B]

There's a time for living

[A]

the time

[B]

keeps on flying wow. Think you're loving baby and all you're doing is crying can you feelings real

[A]

look at your game girl oh, yeah, I've heard this.

[B]

The Satanic James team. Look at your game girl look at his eyes. He's a fascinating confusion stretching down. Those interviews with him are I just as far. They're just some of the most compelling video that's ever been made. I mean the. The. The Penny Marshall interview, you know, he does. Have you seen the interview he does with Ronald Reagan's son, Ronald Reagan Jr. That's a great interview. But what's the main one is with.

[A]

He did an interview with Ronald Reagan's son. Yeah. Ronald Reagan Jr. See if you can find that.

[B]

Yeah. I don't remember why Ronald Reagan Jr. Was interested in it, but yeah, he interviews him.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

What's. Who's the guy that does the really hostile interview? I can't remember his name.

[A]

Charles Manson's son gives exclusive interview.

[B]

Yeah. That's never been. Yeah. Ron Reagan Jr. See it right there.

[A]

Oh, there it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Look at Manson. They sit in your cell and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You get out of your cell at all square box about from there to there. Not very. Is that where you get your exercise? If you call it exercise. Not really exercise. It just got this excuse. They give excuses and they. They play you off. They're like they're doing something, but they're not, you know, not really. Where do you have your meals?

[A]

Do you.

[B]

In yourself? I'm forced to trust it whether I like to eat from people's hands or not. Yeah. I'm holding the trust of California in my stomach.

[A]

You get a lot of letters.

[B]

I know that.

[A]

They've said you get lots of mail here. Do you get mail from family members, Sandra?

[B]

Family?

[A]

Well, people that used to hang out with you, Sandra.

[B]

Good.

[A]

I know. Moved.

[B]

Sandy's a good man. He looks just like his mother in the face, but has some of Reagan's features too. I was.

[A]

I was just going to say he doesn't look much like Reagan.

[B]

He looks like Nancy. He died of age, I believe. Dude.

[A]

Who did you hear from her though, really?

[B]

I think he did.

[A]

Did you hear the story Hamilton told me about Reagan's wife?

[B]

No.

[A]

How they came up with the war on drugs?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I Mean, she was, yeah, huge crusader against that.

[A]

That's her astrologist told her that to come up with that idea.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know that. Well, she, she, that was happening right, whenever mdma, you know, MDMA was legal. And then when it got banned, that was right around the same time that they gave that speech. We got to get rid of drugs. And they started DARE and all that stuff, you know. Yeah. Manson, fascinating person. He can sing, can he?

[A]

Yeah, he can sing. The bro's got, he's got shred that guitar.

[B]

He was up in Topanga Canyon and when, you know, Neil Young was making Harvest, Joni Mitchell, the Birds, Gene Clark, the Beach Boys, you know, of course, Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys. The drummer, his, his brother Brian Wilson was the head of the Beat, you know, the genius from the Beach Boys who just died about a year ago. That's what he was mad about, is that they covered the Manson song. You know, the Beach Boys covered a Charles Manson song. And he felt he, they. One, they changed things and he got mad. Two, he felt like he didn't get the money and so he was mad at Dennis Wilson about it. So it was really a conflict. And they also. Terry Melcher, the producer who lived there.

[A]

He lived there, right?

[B]

He lived there and he thought Terry Melcher still lived there.

[A]

That's one, that's one of the theories is that he, Manson was going there to kill Melcher and they found somebody else.

[B]

Yeah. And then somebody else lived there. Yeah, Doris Day son, Terry Melcher. He, he. That is the most believable, the one that we have the most facts for and that makes the most sense to me is that that's what happened.

[A]

And it was just an unfortunate coincidence that was connected that his probation officer was letting him out of jail every, at every turn. And he was also going to the CIA funded clinic.

[B]

And the people that, I mean, I don't know how much you've watched of the Manson family and the girls who did it, they're. You're not talking about the sharpest tools in the shed there. Tex Watson and the rest of them, they're not that bright and they're insane. I mean, some of them were insane and even said we were completely out of there. I mean, you're taking that amount of amphetamine and LSD for that long and you're hanging around Charles Manson. If we were hanging around Charles Manson for an extended period of time, taking amphetamine lsd, what would happen? Yeah, you're going to become deranged, of course. And I just think that makes them. I just think that makes the most sense because how does it fit into the theory. I don't remember, of he killed the. The La Biancas cuz. Remember he killed the mom.

[A]

That was the next night or the.

[B]

Yeah, it was the next night or the night before. I thought it was the night before, but I remember. But you know what, does that fit into it? No, I mean, he. And he was there for that, whereas with the Tate murders, he wasn't there.

[A]

The creepiest thing to me, I think, was that when. When the Tate murders happened, the first person to make a phone call about it was a guy who was a CIA operative. And man. Or Tom talks about this in his book. One of the guys. One of the more elusive dudes in this book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who was very like. He made a solid case how this guy was connected to CIA. He was the first person to. To make a phone call. I forget who to who it was, who it was to, though, but he made a phone call to someone. Somebody tipping them off about this. And this was way before the police got there. And anything else. So how would this guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Know about this?

[B]

Well, I think what you're going to have is imagine, if you want to think about how trippy what is happening now is going to be to people in 50 years, look at what's happening with the FDA, the symposia thing. There's all of this cra. Well, they were a d. May it have been a D A informant. And this people paid them in trouble. Travis had written an article for them and then he appeared on the Danny Jones show and he had interviewed Noam Chomsky and he was in the Epstein files. You can start making dots between everything. I think that's where caution comes in. You can make connections between everything. Yeah, it's just. It's. It's not that hard. Yeah, yeah, that's.

[A]

That's so true.

[B]

You know, it's easy. You know, it's easy. What is it, six degrees of separation? It's probably less than that now with the Internet. Anybody can. Can contact anybody now, you know?

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

yeah, the. But the Manson thing is completely fascinating. I mean, it just is. I mean, I think everybody. I mean, people have been obsessed with it for so long because it. He's a. He's a charismatic figure. I mean, he's an interesting figure and in the way in which he brilliantly put the society on trial and turned it around, which is the basis of Natural Born Killers. You know, when you see the interview, he's just holding a mirror up to the society and saying, well look at all the things you're doing. And now you want to blame me for all of this. You know he railed against Leary, Baba Ram Dass. He said Leary, oh yeah. He said Leary said rise up and kill your parents. Why didn't you arrest him? Why isn't he in jail? What about Baba Ram Dass? What about Abby Hoffman? He's you know, he said don't trust anybody over 30. Kill your parents. Why isn't he in jail? Now of course this was, this is a con who had been in jail his entire life who had developed very sophisticated self defense mechanisms. But it makes for interesting, here's the.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting but here's the question. What difference does it make? What whether he was working with, whether the CIA was in charge of him or not.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

What different, same thing with Kennedy, bro. Yeah, like. Yeah, more where we googled this. It was like 80% of the American public believes Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't acting alone. Like they, everyone knows the CIA was tied into this somehow.

[B]

Well I think at one point it would have mattered but I think now people are so disillusioned because so many things have happened since then. But I think at the time you would have had people that they would have people who had maybe faith in government and institutions. But now it doesn't mean shit as you said because people are so profoundly cynical and disillusioned that it doesn't mean anything. People like you say, people just assume that the official story isn't right and it's led to a kind of toxic where nobody believes anything. I mean that's the problem. The long term consequences of covering shit up is eventually people are going to start going, you know, I don't believe anything these people, people say. I don't believe anything they say. You know, the Iraq I mean the other major hit was I graduated high school in 2001. You know, I got out in June, September. I'm working at a factory in Virginia. The planes hit the tower and then look at the lies. The New York Times Marine doubt. Look at the lies they were putting out. Colin Powell weapons of mass destruction. It was all lies. It's all lies. And we're only now feeling the consequences because they killed a mission million people. Destabilize the region, cause a massive immigration crisis to where they're everywhere. People are coming here, people are coming there. The rise of autocracy. It's every we, we happen to live in a time where People don't want to think about the consequences of their actions, you know, and you can make

[A]

a lot of money leaning into all this, too. I mean, look at Candace Owens, bro.

[B]

Like, I am absolutely amazed at what she's been able to do.

[A]

Isn't she saying now that the Charlie Kirk murder was like a time trial traveler? Isn't she connecting this to time travel now?

[B]

Really?

[A]

That's what. That's the latest.

[B]

She has a massive audience.

[A]

Right? Oh, my God. It's astonishing.

[B]

Do you think she's just a pure con artist?

[A]

I don't think pure. I don't.

[B]

She's definitely gullible people.

[A]

There's something that happens to people when they get tremendous success from one specific thing. Right. Like, from what? Like, there's a. I don't know how much you follow sports, but there's this guy, Skip Bayless, who's this, like, famous sports reporter, and he got. He basically got the most attention in his early career from. On LeBron James comparing. Like, LeBron James is never going to be what Jordan is. He can't compare him to Jordan. Blah, blah, blah, blah. No nuance. LeBron James could not do anything right. He was just unabashedly on LeBron James at every turn. And he got so much, much hate. He got so much love from the Jordan people. So much hate from the LeBron people. It. He started to turn into this character. He started leaning into that because he got so much more attention and he kind of like lost the plot along the way and he be. He became the character he was playing. I think that can happen to people.

[B]

I think you start to believe your own.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Candace Owens causes concern after Charlie Kirk, time traveler claim on another bizarre look. I think she's on to a lot of stuff. Like, I think she's. She's like, she has legitimate threads in this stuff and she, you know, she convinces herself that she's seeking the truth or whatever, but she's also. She's also playing a character and she's also, like, you know, getting. She gets so many listeners and views on her stuff, it's insane.

[B]

Yeah, but didn't she have a sort of a social justice grift that didn't work out before, and then she turned to this grift.

[A]

Yeah, I think really early on.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, you have.

[B]

She's skilled at it. Whatever. Oh, right, I forgot about.

[A]

She worked for the Daily Wire, then she left.

[B]

I mean, this guy seems. To the guy. I mean, to me, it seems plausible that the guy that they think did it. Did it to me. I mean, really, for whatever. I mean, I haven't read reams of information on it, but I haven't heard

[A]

much about it really. I mean, I haven't heard much about the trial of that kid. Can you see what the latest is on that trial on the Charlie Kirk thing? Yeah, yeah. The kid who allegedly shot him. All I know is I, I. There's a load of ex military people on the Internet and that I've talked to here, like Delta Force people who say that there's no way that that gun that they found and buried would have not blown through the back of him. Right. Because there's like no exit wound. There's so many weird things like the FBI is not telling the whole story for sure. The FBI is not telling the whole story here. And that's what leads to all these crazy time traveler theories. You know, if, if, if they're going to, they're going to block all this information and like, twist, I mean, you see Cash Patel, bro, when it, even when it comes to the Epstein files, just, just trace it back to where this all started a couple months ago. There are no Epstein files. There were no victims. He trafficked to himself. He was. That's what Patel was saying to con in front of Congress. Dude, straight up. L. Like it's seems.

[B]

Isn't he dating some country singer or.

[A]

Oh, yeah, and she's. Yeah, yeah, he's on. Going on podcast with his girlfriend who's a country singer, trying to promote her country tour.

[B]

What a circus.

[A]

And you know, half the Internet believes that she's a Mossad agent.

[B]

Dude, we're on a. We're in a. Just a golden moment. A golden moment.

[A]

Tyler Robinson. Okay, we got a CHPT breakdown here. What? 22 year old charged with aggravated murder. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. On February 3rd. Just yesterday.

[B]

Right? 2.

[A]

2 days ago. 2 days ago for a critical hearing regarding potential conflict of interest. What's the conflict of interest? His defense team is attempting to disqualify the Utah County Attorney's office from the case. They argued the conflict exists because the 18 year old of the deputy prosecutor was in the crowd. 18 year old child of the prosecutor was in the crowd. Okay. Yeah, I heard this. Yeah, man, it's. And then there's the guy, the old guy who jumped up right after it happened, running around crazy, his pants falling down.

[B]

I think he had, I read that he had sort of done this before and that he's somebody who they kind of have. Every time a politician comes he shows up and he screams, and they have to drag him out because he was saying, I shot Charlie. Shoot me. Shoot me.

[A]

Right? But they're saying it could have been a diversion to give that kid time or whoever was up on the roof more time to escape, or he could

[B]

have just been a wacko. Since we have documented evidence from before that this guy is crazy. I mean, there's everybody where. I don't know who you have around here, but everywhere I've lived, including in Louisville, Lexington, and Baltimore, there's always been crazy people that. Everybody's like, oh, God, that's them. You know, we have a guy in Louisville that he's just. He's schizophrenic and he's homeless, and everybody knows him. He goes into restaurants, he starts moving. He'll walk into a regular eating, and he'll walk in, he'll start moving, moving everything. He'll come up to the table and pretend to be the waiter.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

He's. He's disturbed. But if you didn't know him, you may. Like, I've. I've been eating. And he'll walk up to somebody's table, and they don't know, and they'll be like, oh, yes, we'll have the moussaka and this. And he's just like. And then walks away. And then the people we ordered food. No, that's. That's Bill. He's.

[A]

That's incredible. Yeah.

[B]

He was a professor, and his dad was a professor, and, you know, a lot of times schizophrenia shows up. 30, 35. He's totally normal.

[A]

Yeah. And then just think about the timeline in the last. In the last 12 months of all the stuff that's gone down. Trump almost getting his head blown off. Yeah. The Charlie Kirk thing on live tv, all over the Internet, blood shooting out of him, The Epstein files coming out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's just never. How do you keep track of all of it?

[B]

It does.

[A]

You just got to disconnect at some point and just be like.

[B]

Yeah, you can't.

[A]

You can't possibly track all this stuff and stuff. Stay sane.

[B]

It's not healthy. It does seem to be some massive purging. I mean, there's just. It's not good. It's not good. I mean, being hooked up to an electronic device all the time is not healthy for. You can see, it's just driving people insane. And then the guy who tried to shoot Trump on the golf course I saw yesterday.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he got.

[B]

He got life in prison. And, you know, again, you could spin a conspiracy. He was in Ukraine, he was some wacko trying to get attention. He had been to Ukraine trying to get attention. You could spin a conspiracy theory about it, but the most likely one is that he's of insane grifter, which is what he looks like. And even people that know him are like, look, this is just a guy who wanted attention.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he was trying to promote his rumble page.

[B]

I mean, did he really have a rumble?

[A]

I don't know. Oh.

[B]

I was like, oh, that would be awesome. That would be amazing.

[A]

How about the rise of this guy, Nick Fuentes? He's like the number one like young guy political commentator in the world right now.

[B]

He is.

[A]

And he's like.

[B]

And he worked for Kanye West.

[A]

And he worked for Kanye West. He's like this chaos agent and he's like the number one guy, man.

[B]

We are a country and always there's a great book about called American Humor by Constance Oor. It's, it goes into the archetypes of sort of our fundamental archetypes of America. You know, the pioneer. And we have always been a country that produced in spades, just sort of P.T. barnum types, circuit riding preacher types of crazy people. You know, it's kind of a, you know, is it a new world, a new land? And people like him, entrepreneurial, self made, they pick up intuitively on what's happening and find themselves a place in it and know that by saying certain shit you're going to get attention. They see an opening in the market.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in that sense you're like, look, this is, this is what this country is. I mean, I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean it's just.

[A]

No, you're right.

[B]

Part of the character of our country, you know, character is destiny. And if you think about the care, like I mentioned that concert workbook, sort of look at, look at where our country comes from and its roots and you can start to think, oh, if character is destiny, we might be in trouble. Yeah. Because we're not, you know, it's a 250 year. I heard you on your show. I can't remember who it was you were talking about. Thomas Painting. Common sense.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Well, it's a 250 year. 250. 250th anniversary. Common sense. Right. And so there's been a lot of articles coming in about Thomas Payne. New York Times has had really five. They've been everywhere. Substack everywhere. Great, great articles about all the crazy things about Thomas Paine.

[A]

But he was like one of the founding fathers who wasn't actually a founding father. He was close to all those guys.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. They hated him. You know, like, James Madison's wife called him a lunatic. You know, he was pariah. I mean, and, you know, people said he was bipolar. You know, going back and reading it, you have to decide for yourself. I mean, not just his ideas, but, you know, he was certainly radical. You know, for him, the Constitution didn't go far enough. I didn't know that he. That he allocated the profits of the book, which was that he inflated. He said it sold half a million copies or 250,000 copies. So he was also a self promoter, but he allocated the money to Washington and Washington army, you know, and then he ends up turning against Washington because he says the Constitution is for the elite.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, there's not enough democracy. And then these are things people are beginning to think about, is there? How much democracy do you want? Yeah. When you have a lot of idiots, is it a good thing?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. These are. These are serious questions that have never been answered.

[A]

Well, wasn't Solon's democracy. Wasn't it, like, weren't there certain, like, rules. Rules to be able to, like, vote

[B]

and stuff in America?

[A]

No, no, no, no. In, like, ancient. The ancient world. Oh, Solon and Plato wrote about democracy.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Wasn't it, like, you had to be. You had to have a certain stake or something in that civilization, in that culture to be able to probably participate. Like, not just. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it wasn't just like, the layman could vote, but, I mean, it makes sense, you know, like, if you. If you should. Or if you're gonna vote, you should be able to pass like a. You should be able to. Able to prove you have some sort of comprehension. I mean, I could probably make an argument for both sides.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, like, there's definitely an argument to where, like, just like, taking a driver's license test, be able to drive a car, you should be able to take some sort of comprehension test to be able to, like, to vote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not that voting even matters.

[B]

Well, people's fondness for democracy does seem to hinge on. We are not. The person they like wins. If for the person they like wins, democracy is great. When the person they like loses, then they're, well, we need to get rid of democracy, you know? Right. Every. Every time the Republican went, well, we got to get rid of the electoral college, you know, Otherwise it's fine. But you know, if who I like wins, right, Then everything, then the system is great.

[A]

Well, there. Did you see that article that just came out from Seymour Hirsch?

[B]

Oh, yeah, he's great dude.

[A]

He was writing about, so he was writing about the, the ice stuff, all the ice that's going on in, in Minnesota. And apparently there's this dude, something, Stephen. Something in Trump's cabinet, in the White House.

[B]

Stephen Miller.

[A]

Stephen Miller, yeah. Who came up with these proposals, I guess to the White House or to the administration or whatever to like intentionally sow chaos to disrupt the midterm elections. Because Trump, his approval rating in the polls are like really bad for him right now. And one of the things that Seymour, I mean Seymour Hersh is, I guess he's been wrong before, but I mean, the case he's making in that substack article is that they could be trying to disrupt this stuff to like delay or postpone the midterm elections or something like this so they don't lose the House and the Senate.

[B]

Yeah, it could be. Possibly. I mean, Trump said the Republicans ought to nationalize the elections in like 12 states where he just happened to lose. Right. The Constitution says that, you know, the, it must be the states, but he says let's not, you know, nationalize it. So, yeah, who knows? There's nothing I wouldn't put past the administration. And it is a heavy emphasis on spectacle. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like the Maduro thing. I mean, they snatched Maduro, but the vice president, Darcy, whatever her name is,

[A]

Rodriguez or she's the same part, she's the same regime. It was just very decapitated, the regime. It's not a regime change.

[B]

No, it's not a regime change. You know, which is why it's. There's not total, I assume that why there's not total chaos. But then what was the point? It seems to have just been a spectacle. Old timey 80s Rambo spectacle of, you know, let's snatch the guy.

[A]

You want to hear the craziest take I heard about this was that I heard this on Kurt Metzger show. He did this podcast with this dude, this professor in China. China, who was saying that Maduro has been a CIA asset forever and this whole thing was like a planned operation. And he went with them, he agreed to go with them. And part of what's going to happen, part of this deal or whatever, is that when Maduro's show trial finally happens, he's going to talk about how Venezuela helps steal that election. During the Trump biden Oh, remember those voting machines?

[B]

I read something about this. Yeah, yeah. Because they want to get rid of the voting machines. But I also heard that, that, that someone in the administration wants Maduro to say something. You know, like we were interfering in the elections in this desperation to prove

[A]

that it was illegitimate.

[B]

I mean, again, convoluted. Who knows? I don't think so. I. This man does not appear to have. Want to been kidnapped to me. But you never know. You never know. And it was just. Yeah, him and.

[A]

You mean wearing that sick ass Nike jumpsuit or whatever it was that he was wearing? I think he had that. That planned out.

[B]

Yeah. How weird.

[A]

Oh God.

[B]

What? Why did you put a bottle of whiskey in front of me, Danny Jones?

[A]

Oh, cuz we got to drink whiskey. We have cups. We do have cup. We got coffee mugs, but we don't have ice. Do we have ice?

[B]

You don't?

[A]

No, we have cold water. We have cold water. Well, we have an ice machine. We just haven't. I don't think it works. We got to plug it in. I got to take a leak real quick. Yeah, we'll. We'll be right back. Cheers, bro.

[B]

Hey, I completely buy into this and I want, I want to join. We drove by my cat, cab driver, Uber driver. He drove me by the. The headquarters and I was like, is that the courthouse? He's like, no, it's Scientology headquarters. I was like, damn, Clearwater, he's got an amazing courthouse.

[A]

Dude. L. Ron Hubbard had his ship parked right over there. He did, Right on the water.

[B]

He was over here himself.

[A]

This was the original church. This was like where it all started was right here. The one in LA came after.

[B]

So this. Wow, that's amazing. Hey, there is this guy from Kentucky who was in the military with L. Ron Hubbard and he started a competing religion that's like a janky Scientology. And it's called er. Have you ever heard of it?

[A]

No. Yes.

[B]

It's called Echanar. You can look it up. And his name was. You'll have to look it up. I forgot it. But he's from western Kentucky, where I'm from. And he knew Elron Hubard and he was like, I'm going to start a religion. And he was a door to door salesman.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes. And it's still around. It's still around now it's.

[A]

Look it up.

[B]

It's a little bit. He. I think he incorporates kind of more Hindu type stuff. Yeah, it's Ekanar E C K A N A AR and there are people. Oh, yeah, this is it. Started by Paul Twitchell. That's it. Wow. Oh, look, the home is in Minnesota.

[A]

You know, Scientology is no worse than like ancient religion. Any ancient religion, it's just a religion. The only difference is the guy who started died in like modern times.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm very. I don't know.

[A]

Wow, look at that.

[B]

Oh, that's their headquarters. Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They got more money than I thought they did.

[A]

That's Baller. Yeah. Yeah. Minnesota, no less.

[B]

Yeah. The living Eck master. It's a little. I don't know, but Scientology is kind of crazy too.

[A]

So maybe L. Ron Hubbard stole Jack Parsons wife. He like ran away with Parsons wife.

[B]

Marjorie. Marjorie Cameron. Or was. I don't know her name. Because, you know, some of these people are in those films. You know, the films of Kenneth Anger. If you. I bet you would if you saw him. If you don't know him by name. But.

[A]

Sounds familiar.

[B]

They've got. He was. He. He made a movie with Jack Parsons. Right. Marjorie Cameron, the Wormwood. I think she's called the Wormwood Woman. Yeah, those films. And they've in, in those movies, the. They've got Bobby Bos, who was part of the Manson family. You know, he played. He was going to play Satan. He was going to play Lucifer in the film Lucifer Rising, but he got busted with the Manson family, so they replaced him with Mick Jagger.

[A]

No way.

[B]

And that soundtrack on some of those is Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin.

[A]

What?

[B]

They're all like heavy, satanic, like.

[A]

What movie?

[B]

Lucifer Rising.

[A]

Luciferizing.

[B]

Scorpio Rising, which is the best one.

[A]

I need to watch this.

[B]

And. Oh, the, the one is called in. It's got Anton lavey from the Surgeon. It's called Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome. That's the one with Jimmy Page or. No, that's the one with Mick Jagger. Does the soundtrack on a Moog keyboard. They're the most badass occult movies ever made. And they've got all of these people we're talking about are. Are in the films. Yeah, the guy, Kenneth Anger, who made him just die, he was like 100. I think he just died not too long ago. Very weird. Interesting. Yeah, Therehere you go, Bobby.

[A]

1980. Oh. It was completed in 72 and it was distributed in 80. Bobby Bu. No lie.

[B]

He's alive. He's in prison. You should interview him. He's. He's a musician. He makes records.

[A]

What prison is he in?

[B]

I don't know. Look it up.

[A]

I think he.

[B]

I don't know where he's at Find

[A]

out what prison this guy's inay. Look at this, look at this. Wow.

[B]

Gary Hinman. See, the stabbing of. Gary Hinman was the teacher who. They got into this bad drug deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they said that Manson cut his ear off. He accused Manson of cutting his ear, Right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I remember this.

[B]

Yeah, I think he was from. Is he from Texas? No, Santa Barbara.

[A]

God, that book is so good, bro. The Chaos book. I wish. I just wish I could read it in like a period of a week. It's so long. It took me like two months to read it.

[B]

The documentary was disappointing.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It was nowhere near as good as

[B]

I thought he was trying to. Did you get the sense that he was trying to undermine the book? Book? I think he was because, you know, he's.

[A]

I'd have to watch it again.

[B]

He said on your podcast, I think, where Tom o' Neill said that at one point Errol Morris was his co author, that he. To get a bigger advance from Penguin, they signed Arrow Morris on his.

[A]

I never heard that. Yeah, I heard it was this other guy, Dan Piping Gear. Piping.

[B]

No, first it was Errol Morris.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

And that's how he got the film rights and then they ended up getting into it. Whoa. I think he said it on your podcast.

[A]

That's crazy because Errol Morris is a legend. One of my favorite filmmakers of all time.

[B]

Oh, he's great. He's one of America's best documentary films.

[A]

He is. You ever seen Mr. Death?

[B]

Yes, I've seen all of his movies.

[A]

I talked to him yesterday, by the way. Mr. Death. I called him up. Yeah. His wife just died.

[B]

He's alive.

[A]

He's alive.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, we're getting him down here.

[B]

That's one of the greatest one. And then did you see the one with a tabloid about the. The Mormon woman who like sources that guy to have sex with her? The Mormon missionaries. You should watch that one. That one's really weird. He's got a. A lot of weird movies.

[A]

A lot of weird movies. That's why I like him.

[B]

Yeah, he's great. He's got the. What? Vernon, Florida. Vernon, Florida. The.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Vernon, Florida. Thin Blue Line.

[A]

Yeah. Hamilton was saying he helped work on that.

[B]

Did he?

[A]

That. That latest one about the Manson stuff?

[B]

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, it was a disappointment. I mean, I thought. I didn't think it was going to be anything great.

[A]

Well, I heard Tom was pissed about it.

[B]

I got the sense that he was trying to debunk the not debunk the book, but it was against the argument.

[A]

Why would he do that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Because. Angry about the deal that happened, I guess. I don't know. This is what o' Neal said. This is not my opinion. This is what o' Neil said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now either it's true. I don't know. But yeah, this is what o' Neal was saying. Because I was like, okay. Because, you know, the book took what, 20 years or something or longer. Yeah. And so it different. He had got an advance, and then the publisher sued him, and then he got a bigger advance, and then he. The one way he got the bigger events was by Morris signing on and Da, da, da, da, da. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Crazy. What do you think of this, Basil?

[A]

This is good whiskey. It's very smooth.

[B]

It's amazing. Is it?

[A]

I haven't had this in a long time. I never drink anymore.

[B]

Really. Just Kratom. Just white rabbit, baby. Yeah.

[A]

No more alcohol. No more alcohol. Just get up on Kratom, bro.

[B]

I don't use Kratom. Now. We need a Kratom. Infuse it with.

[A]

You've had it before, haven't you?

[B]

Kratom? Yeah. Never.

[A]

No, this is the first time.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'm just drinking it in this. I don't notice anything, but.

[A]

Yeah, well, not mixed with the beer and the, and the whiskey you're not.

[B]

Oh, no. Yeah, we got what, Some Greek beer. Is that what it is?

[A]

Greek beer?

[B]

Yeah, there's a Turkish place down the road that was excellent. Did I show you my Uber driver

[A]

in that Greek beer?

[B]

No. There's no ergot. No. Or else I'd be hallucinating by now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The Scientology stuff around here is crazy, man. A lot of the companies around here are all. This whole, like, block is owned by Scientologists. The crazy thing about Scientologists is that they're all super wealthy.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah, most of them. Well, well, I, I, I wouldn't put it that way. That's the, that's putting it backwards. I would say all of the most wealthy people in this area are Scientologists.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And so my Uber driver explained to me, I don't think he's a scholar of Scientology, but he claimed that they take 20 of your income. Is that right? It's kind of like, I don't know. Oh, I'm not sure he had very good things.

[A]

The thing is, I've never heard any good things about, you know, the people I've talked to. The documentaries I've watched, they all paint Scientology in this horrible light. They do slavery. They have the cadet war where they take your kids and they put them in this place where they're malnourished, not taken care of, like very.

[B]

The Alex Gibney movie.

[A]

The Alex Gibney movie. Yeah. Going clear and like church.

[B]

Let's start a conspiracy. Conspiracy.

[A]

Taunting people, you know what I mean? Like with people and. And harassing them and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I've never heard a Scientologist argue against it.

[B]

Really. Right.

[A]

Have you. Have you ever heard a Scientologist, like, make it. Make their case against this stuff?

[B]

Well, except I think the only time is when Cruz was on Oprah jumping down, up. Jumping up and down on the couch. That was the only time. You know, the famous.

[A]

Was she challenging him on it?

[B]

Well, they were talking about prescription. Prescription drugs, I think. Yeah. I think she was saying. I think he was just. My. My memory of it is.

[A]

That was Matt Lauer. No, it was Tom Cruise. No, no. Matt Lauer interviewing Tom Cruise about.

[B]

It wasn't Oprah.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

It wasn't Oprah, you're saying?

[A]

Well, he was definitely on Oprah too.

[B]

Yeah, he was jumping up and down Oprah.

[A]

He was jumping up and down on Oprah talking about his relationship with Katie. Oh, yeah. He was so excited.

[B]

Oh, I thought there was some spat to where he was talking about. Because aren't there they against psychiatric drugs? I think they are. I think so. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it was Matt Lauer.

[B]

So are you from here Nanny. You're from.

[A]

Yeah, I was born and raised here and.

[B]

But you never. Did you go to school to a bunch of Scientologists? Really? So did they educ. Educate?

[A]

I went to like a very low end public school, bro.

[B]

Oh, really? I knew there was a reason I liked you.

[A]

No, I didn't. And I didn't like, like, I was south of here. I was not in like the Clearwater area, you know, so I wasn't really. I didn't really get exp. Until I got older and learned more. I think when I actually first. I had always heard about it, you know, because I had a lot of like, growing up, I had a lot of like wealthy. A lot of my friends came from wealthy families.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And going through, like driving through Clearwater, hanging out with people in Clearwater, you know, there was always this lore of Scientologists who would roam around the streets. They look like robots. They always wear those same outfits with the vest or whatever. And those are the people that belong to the Sea Organization. Those are the worker bees of Scientology. Right. And you always hear about, like, they're weird. You know, they don't talk and, you know, whatever. And I never really learned about what it was until. Until Alex. I watched Alex Gibney's documentary on hbo.

[B]

But so. So what's your general. You know, just say your high school or middle school. Was your general perception of them negative, do you think?

[A]

Just weird.

[B]

Local. Are local people like these people are occult or something?

[A]

No. I mean, maybe not really. The general perception as a kid or as like, a young person was that they just weirdos. You know, I never really knew. I never really knew what it. Like, anything about it until I saw the HBO documentary. Like, they leave people alone for the most part. You know, they do their own thing.

[B]

Sounds like a great religion.

[A]

It sounds like a f. Like a normal religion.

[B]

They don't recruit. They won't knock on your door like the Latter Day Saints.

[A]

They've never tried to recruit me. No.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, I've had a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door, try to recruit me, but I've never had a Scientologist try to recruit me. I've heard stories of people trying to get recruited into Scientology, but I think they're trying to recruit people that have, like, a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, they're trying to donate.

[B]

They always need money. Wow. Do they always need money?

[A]

Yeah. We need to get an advocate for Scientology to come on here and debate somebody.

[B]

I really think you should, because I'm. I'm curious to hear their side of the story.

[A]

I'm really curious. Yeah. And that's the thing. Well, that's allegedly one of the problems is that they're. They're not allowed to be around somebody who disparages Scientology because that's. That's. Yeah, because apparently they have this, like, rule book where, like, you can't be around people that are against you or that talk negative about you or whatever. Because. Because that's. It's naughty. And you get written up by other Scientologists.

[B]

I don't like that.

[A]

Apparently, there's a big culture of snitching in there. So, like, if you're a Scientologist, you see your friend Scientologist use your phone or do something against the. The cult or whatever. They'll. They'll write you up and you'll have to, like, scrub the floor, the toilets with your toothbrush or something.

[B]

Their stock is dropping in my mind. Okay.

[A]

You know, and this is all alleged. I don't know, because that was real.

[B]

There's. I don't want to say too much about the this, but didn't the founder or the head honcho. Didn't his wife disappear?

[A]

Yeah, that's the story.

[B]

There's the FBI not looking into this. I mean, what.

[A]

Dude, do you see how they got established as a religion? Remember in the movie how they had, like, thousands of people sue the irs?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And eventually they got like, the IRS to cave in and be like, okay, it. Leave us alone. You're a religion. You're tax exempt.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

And they had that huge.

[B]

That.

[A]

That huge symposium celebrating how they were now taking tax exempt.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I mean, it looks like one of those crazy Nazi rallies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, with those big statues and the people. He marches out there like this. You know, him and Tom Cruz with their.

[B]

What's his name?

[A]

The ribbon on. What's the guy's name who runs Scientology?

[B]

David. David.

[A]

David Miscavage.

[B]

David Miscavig. Did you see the Master, which is roughly based with Philip Seymour Hoffman roughly portraying. I think it was his last film portraying L. Ron Hubbard. It's pretty badass. It's worth watching.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I think it's what's his name who made Requiem for a Dream.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What the hell? You saw that, right?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I'm gonna be on television. What's it. Darren Aronofsky? I think it's either him or Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah.

[A]

200. Yeah. So in 2000, 1993, they. Their. They got their tax exempt step status by 2500. Lawsuits against the IRS from all their members. The church paid back. The church had to pay a 12.5 million settlement to end the disputes, gaining exemption for 153 entities allowing donations to be tax deductible.

[B]

Did you see the Rogan episode where he has Miscavige's dad on?

[A]

I did. I had Miscavige's dad on, too.

[B]

It.

[A]

It was remote, though.

[B]

Rogan kind of treated him pretty harshly. I mean, I think he deserved it. He seems kind of like a grifter. I hate to say that, but his did.

[A]

The dad did. I thought.

[B]

So. Rogan gave him hell.

[A]

Well, I think they started the interview where Rogan read, like, a statement from Scientology.

[B]

He did? Yeah. But also, the dad was like, I'm. I'm a rock and roll star, and they ruined my career. And I think Rogan kind of picked up on this guy. Might be.

[A]

Probably. I think Brogan was probably also fed up with the Scientologists harassing. Harassing him over interviewing Scientologist.

[B]

Oh, because he had.

[A]

He had Remy Leah. Remy Leah Remin.

[B]

Yeah, that was. She's interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. She left, right? She left.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And what about Travolta is a part of it, right? That's weird. What the hell?

[A]

There was also the guy who had that scandal, the sexual abuse scandal recently.

[B]

That doesn't narrow it down.

[A]

He was actor connected to Ashton Kutcher.

[B]

Oh, David. Yeah. That kid from the 70s show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right. I think his name was Daniel.

[B]

He got to. They threw a book at his ass. I don't think he's good now. I don't remember what he did, but I just remember he was in deep.

[A]

Yeah, Scientology, they're fine right now, bro. They got Masterson. Masterson. Yeah, that's what it is.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool, man. Clearwater.

[A]

So they got Epstein's out now. I mean, Scientology, they're. They're smooth sailing. They got nothing to worry about with all this ep.

[B]

They're probably stuff.

[A]

They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, baby, keep pumping it out.

[B]

That's the real call.

[A]

People are going to forget about us and our tax exempt status.

[B]

So is the boat that Hubard was on over there or they have. They had to like sync that and come up with a new boat. Is it.

[A]

I don't know what happened to it. I think he eventually went over to the Mediterranean.

[B]

Oh, he did.

[A]

He eventually made his way over there to try to escape.

[B]

And this was to avoid law enforcement.

[A]

Yeah, because that was before the tax exempt stuff. That was to avoid the FBI and the law enforcement and the IRS and I think all that stuff. And they didn't get tax exempt until well after he died now.

[B]

You know, I was surprised to go back and read Doors of Perception. Aldous Huxley, Doors of Perception at a big drug book. He's was pretty influenced by Scientology. I'm not going to say he was a Scientologist, but the ideas are in there. And he talks favorably of Dianetics and in Hubbard. Yeah, yeah. William Burrows, a lot of people got.

[A]

Have you ever read Dianetics?

[B]

No, I haven't, but I would like to.

[A]

I would like to as well. I've heard. I've heard that. It's great.

[B]

He was kind of a. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't he like kind of a pulp science fict author writing.

[A]

He wrote more science fiction, I think, than anybody. Like, he has more published science fiction. And apparently it Was dog science fiction?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. He's no Philip K. Dick. No. Yeah. But hey, I mean, look at what he's created. Pretty incredible. It just seems so unlikely that you could do that.

[A]

Weird too. All of the top remote viewers that were in the CIA's Remote Viewing Program were Scientologists. How put off an ingo swan.

[B]

Now what is. Could you explain to me what the basis of remote viewing is? What so you are, you are somehow able to.

[A]

It's like psychic espionage. So they get a bunch of people in a room and the, the handler gives these remote viewers a. A point in time and a geographical location. Like, like geographic coordinates. And they say, do your meditation and go here and tell us what you see. And these, these remote viewers, basically they, they go there and sometimes they don't. Some they, most of the time they don't get like a full sensory overload like we are experiencing right now. Sometimes they just get like bits and pieces of like. I feel like there's somebody old woman, blonde, outside cafe and they're supposed to be like getting this information from. So they're corroborating this stuff with multiple people and trying to out figure, figure out. They're trying to basically add context to their spies on the ground in that area to confirm or.

[B]

So it's like intuition kind of like that.

[A]

They're kind of like. Yeah, they're, they're. It's some sort of like extra sensory perception where they can, like they can pick up on things that are happening across the world and also across time.

[B]

There used to be a famous woman on tv. She was like Ricky Lake or Mari and something Brown. I don't remember her name, but she did this. Do you remember this? You're too young. The. I mean this is like the 90s. This woman was really famous and you know, is, you know, like Ms. Cleo.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Ms. Clio. They would have. But this woman was more legit than her. She was almost like Oprah. She was famous. She was like Dr. Phil. She's Dr. Phil. She's somebody. I think she went on Oprah. She was everywhere. And this is what she did. And some of it seemed to be kind of like there was something to it. Obviously some people have more percept. They have more intuition than other. Everybody knows somebody who has no intuition. Yeah. And somebody who has. Is pretty good at picking up things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pattern recognition.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean if the, if intelligence is a hard thing to measure way and a hard thing to define.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But one definition would be pattern recognition. And, you know, I can see. That's her. Oh, my gosh. She's horrible. She alive?

[A]

Oh, my God. Sylvia Brown.

[B]

Sylvia Brown.

[A]

Baby died in 2013.

[B]

Psychic Network. That's it. Oh, no.

[A]

Look.

[B]

The fake psychic that ruined lives.

[A]

Oh, no. I remember seeing her promos on, like, the Sci Fi Channel. Maybe she was real. Maybe she really was a psychic.

[B]

She was popular, man. Her show was on all the time.

[A]

Game day energy is real. Whether it's celebrating with friends at a

[B]

bar or cheering at a watch party.

[A]

Most Yakima county young adults already know the winning play. Scoring a sober ride home. 94% of Yakima county young adults don't drive impaired. Celebrating the big game is better when everyone gets home safely. Catch a ride, not a dui.

[B]

Most drive sober.

[A]

A message from safe Yakima Valley.

[B]

In Yakima county, young adults are proving that safe choices are the norm. The majority say driving impaired is never, ever okay. They're making smart moves, planning ahead, finding a ride, and making sure everyone gets home safely. The truth is, the majority of young

[A]

adults in Yakima county don't drive impaired. And that's something worth celebrating, because when

[B]

we look out for each other, we keep our roads and our communities safe.

[A]

Catch a ride, not a dui.

[B]

Most drive sober. A message from safe Yakima Valley. The crypt of Sylvia Brown.

[A]

Yeah, bro. Remember the story, the. The La Cherera story with Terence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And his bro, and how they said that they were just like, they had instead of eating, like, for their calories during the day, for breakfast, lunch, dinner, they were just eating mushrooms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how he explained that, like, after a week or two of tripping, they were communicating telepathically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did you make of that, bro?

[B]

Well, I think Dennis's explanation that they were just bombed is probably the best bomb.

[A]

But, like, communicating telepathically is in the Amazon.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Dennis said has said something several times, like, when I'm on psychedelics, I don't know whether I'm discovering. I can't figure out whether I'm discovering the secrets of the universe or just, like, bombed. And every. Everybody. That's what they do. That's what they do. Everybody has that. When I'm telling you when I did. I mean, I've done psychedelics many times outside of that Hopkins trial, and. And most times I'm like, if I can just remember this after this is over.

[A]

This.

[B]

This is it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is providing some insights. But I think the trouble people have pointed out is that some people don't know the difference between the, it's hard to tell the difference between the, between the real insights. Hold on, I just realized I am God, right?

[A]

Some people have a, have a slippier, more slippery grip on reality to start with.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's not good for those types of folks.

[B]

Well, I thought that was brilliant. Whenever you had Rick Strass on here and right when you guys opened up, you asked him something about DMT and he said, well, a few times a year I'll get a email or a letter from somebody that says, you know, hey, little Jimmy took dmt and little Jimmy ain't little Jimmy no more. Right. He now thinks he's the Messiah.

[A]

Did he say that about dmt?

[B]

Yeah, about dmt.

[A]

Yeah. They get this messianic complex. Well, it's like it amplifies. Yes, it amplifies like your deepest, the deepest parts of your psyche. Right. Brings them to the surface.

[B]

Well, it's a feeling and you get this feeling. And when you have this feeling of an epiphany, I mean, what it does is provide an epiphany. And for some people this is extremely therapeutic.

[A]

And you know, I kind of in

[B]

the source of my own problems and maybe me being a is causing me a lot of problems. And some people change and that's, you're like, whoa, Psilocybin, help that person. Other people seem to have what in the psychedelic literature they call false insights, but that's kind of a slippery term. But they have an insight that may not be so helpful because, yeah, you know, maybe it's the QA non shaman

[A]

or they make those psychedelic insights the movie meaning of their whole lives. They, they, they literally get, that gets baked into their waking conscious lives every moment of every single day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They wrap their identity in it.

[B]

Yeah. I really question this. What's always been dogma, that these things are not addictive. I got it. They're obviously, what was it? A nat.

[A]

Dude, I got it.

[B]

Kill that son. Mr. Miyagi over there. Yeah.

[A]

Whiskey. Yeah.

[B]

Basil Hayden. Shout out to Jim Beam. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, I, I,

[A]

whenever I've done dmt, right after when I got out of it, I always like voice record everything. I'll sit there like for 10 minutes and I'll just talk about what it was because you forget it so quick, you know?

[B]

And what, when you go back to it, how would you describe the nature of these recordings? What are they?

[A]

You know what? I don't think I've ever gone back and listened to them.

[B]

Really?

[A]

They're there, though.

[B]

But at the time. Could you, Steve, just cue those up real quick?

[A]

Yeah, I'd love to. I think the last time I did it, if I can remember, I mean, it's like a slippery, A loose grip on a memory of what I experienced was like, I remember I was in my backyard at night and I heard, you're supposed to do it during. Everyone says you got to do it during the day. It's better during the day, really. I've never done it in the day, but I did it at night in my backyard. And I felt like my trees were talking to me.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And I felt like my trees were telling me, like, they were telling me, like, how insecure. Significant I am.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And how, like, they are the real world and I am just like a temporary. I'm a temporary, insignificant passerby.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were just like, they had, they had knowledge. The trees are telling me like they had knowledge of the universe and of the earth that I will never know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I could never comprehend end. And, you know, it made me feel like I was some sort of like a, Like I was beamed in from, like, a video game, you know, and eventually I'm gonna get beamed out and they're still gonna be there. That's, that's basically the idea. And then I, I texted.

[B]

Seems like a good insight.

[A]

I, I, I, I texted this guy, I know about it, who's done a lot of dmt. And I was like, yo, check this out. This is what I got from this trip. What do you think? He's like, oh, no, that's wrong. You got that wrong, brother. That's, that, that wasn't correct. I'm like, like, okay, like, what the. That's what they get away from the messianic complex that people get when they, like, they're experienced psychedelic people and they think that they know.

[B]

I think this might be the problem with it, because the people that are already humble, I mean, the, the cure. If there's a medicine to it, it's the humiliation. It is this feeling of, God, I'm insignificant. You know, the ego is. Well, you know, I'm just a small person. I don't know all of these things. It's a sober, you know, I always used to say it's a sobering experience. There's a, There's a contradiction. The psychedelic experience, which, the caricature of it is, yo, there's pink elephants. And I saw this, man, the 60s, kind of, you know, hallucinations, but really, at its best, it's this sobering experience of like, wow, that was heavy. But I think maybe the problem with it is, is the people that are predispositioned to have that kind of trip are probably the people that don't need it as much. And the people that need to do it either won't do it or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or it has the ego inflation effect, which I'm noticing more and more. I don't know if it's the pairing of the Internet plus psychedelics. There's something in our contemporary culture that seems to me that it's having more of the ego inflation effect. But that could also be the data that I'm using, which are just people that are trying to popularize it rather than your everyday people that are not talking about it. Because we know that psychedelic use is now widespread. Yeah. More people have got to be using psychedelics than ever before, as far as we know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. Like, my whole. My whole view on it before I tried it is far different from what I feel like it really is. You know, like, I had this perception, maybe a false perception, that, like, it could be the cure to everything, you know, if all the world leaders took psychedelics together and did kumbaya, like, it would fix everything. Like, it is.

[B]

Absolutely. It's the.

[A]

It's the fix.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For everything that's going wrong in the world.

[B]

Yes. This is the fundamental trip. I mean, this is what happens to everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I. This. This is what happened to me. And I told everybody who would listen, look, I know how to fix this. Is the only problem is once you have it, I immediately, in my mind, and lots of other people do, too, is you do it and you go, look. Okay. I know now for a fact that this is what everybody has to do. The only question is, how do we get people. People to do it? And this is where the religion thing becomes extremely attractive because you go, hold on a second. What if they used to use this in church? There's a lot of churches and there's a lot of religions. This could be a way that very quickly we get a lot of people to do this. We're about to find out. The, the, the. It's growing. I mean, the psychedelic churches are popping up everywhere.

[A]

Are they really?

[B]

Yeah, there's a big one in the biggest one, I think, that I read there's a piece that goes Guardian about. I think it's called Gaia Church. It's in Spokane, Washington. They're suing the dea. They're suing the DEA because they stormed in and took their drugs. Yeah, and so they're.

[A]

They're Gaia Church.

[B]

Look it up and see if you. It's in Spokane. There's a big piece in the Guardian about it. And, you know, people's attitudes have changed on this. They don't believe the old propaganda anymore. They don't believe it. People know that there's something to it, but it's just. I don't think we'll ever really get a handle on it because it's. As you pointed out, I mean, minute ago, you're. It's no edit. You know, what William James called Noetic. You can't. There it is. The Church of Guy and Spokane.

[A]

The Church of Guy in Spokane, Washington, has all the makings of a traditional place of worship. Regular gatherings, communal songs, member donations. Except they also serve ayahuasca, a psychedelic substance that can induce nausea and at times projectile vomiting.

[B]

Yeah, baby.

[A]

Oh, God. That's one. I. I have noticed desire to ever try ayahuasca.

[B]

I've never tried it either.

[A]

I have no desire. Sounds terrible.

[B]

You know, we had the Guy in Kentucky, of course, all the. Of all the people, we've already got this reputation for being backwards. And of course, the. The biggest dumbass in the state. I hate to say that, but it's true. Was the Guy who. They gave a vice show, Kentucky ayahuasca, and he had a Native American church in his trailer. I was like, why do we have to get this guy of everybody? Can we get somebody?

[A]

Dude was telling me this morning that he heard there was a new plant that was discovered that has NN DMT, 5 Meo DMT and an Meo M. Whatever it is. Inhibitor in it.

[B]

All of them.

[A]

It has everything baked into the plant.

[B]

Do you have.

[A]

Have you heard of this? No, I don't think I have any.

[B]

What was it called?

[A]

No, he didn't tell me what it

[B]

was called, but it's a plant or it's a mushroom.

[A]

It's a plant that contains five MEO and the. What is the ma. MAO inhibitor. Is that what it's called? Yeah, MAO inhibitor and the MAO inhibitor.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you know, in ayahuasca, they got to take the different ingredients to get both of them in there. So this has everything.

[A]

Exactly. So this is like the cat's meow.

[B]

All right, what is it? Oh, changa.

[A]

Changa. You've heard of this? It's a smokable. Oh, wait, wait. Is this a plant or what? Is this a synthetic thing?

[B]

No, I think it's this yeah, this is the thing. What is that called? I'd read about this. There's a great Rave New World. Do you know Rave New World? No, substack. I can't remember the woman's name, but she's great. And she wrote about this.

[A]

Mimosa hostilis root, bark and Psychotria virtus leaves. Leaves are common. Is this one plant that contains all of this, Steve? No, this is a blend of plants, okay? This was one plant he was telling me about that contains everything.

[B]

Oh, just hit add to cart.

[A]

Don't put new plant, just put plant that contains 5 Meo DMT and the MAO inhibitor Meo inhibitor. Meo?

[B]

Yeah, the Syrian rue.

[A]

Several plants. Several plants contain five MeO, often accompanying beta car, carbolines, MAO, MAOI inhibitors.

[B]

Wow. Did you find it? What is that?

[A]

Where is this plant found?

[B]

Danny, you got to start, remember, these are important things. You got to remember the name.

[A]

He never told me the name. I don't think he knew. I think he just heard this from somebody.

[B]

Ah, New Caldonia

[A]

looks like a plant, shrub or slender tree from the family R and endemic to eastern Australia. It has trifoliate leaves and white flowers born in panicles and leave. Axel, why is everything so hard to pronounce? Axial axils. Huh? Is that. Was that it? That contained everything? That was one of, like, several. So here's another odd copy. So you have to do no work, just a trip. Fucking balls. Yeah, just eat it and that's all you need. Yeah, but there might be side effects. Oh, you know, like it's going to. There's going to be other things. No, thank you. No, no doubt.

[B]

Well, tell them. Leave the side effects out.

[A]

I'll pass. Yeah, Good God.

[B]

No, that's cool. No, I don't know about this, but there's all kind of drugs coming up all the time that I heard of

[A]

and I'm like, wow, but this isn't even a drug. This is just found in nature. This is just a plant, like a. Like a native plant to somewhere. Yeah, I think it's this first one, dude, because.

[B]

Which one?

[A]

I think it's this first one. This, this, this thing. Because one of the other ways they say you could do is ayahuasca and changa. Uhhuh. But the. This one is like. Okay, so this contains five MeO, DNT and the MAOI sources.

[B]

And what is it, like a shrub or something?

[A]

Whoa. Copy and paste that word. The eodia

[B]

as a species of fro

[A]

or small, small tree in the. Where is new ruck citrus family found in Melanesia and New Caledonia, where they hell is that? Go up. It is often associated with New Caledonian flora, known as nominously with eodia. Wow. Bonkers Australia.

[B]

Amazing. Have you been to Australia?

[A]

Never.

[B]

Never. Me neither. No, but I'm imagining they have lots of psychedelic drugs there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

230 woody plants. Wow.

[A]

That is bomb bonkers, bro.

[B]

Yeah, man. The. The. I remember our article that came out a few years ago. It said the psychedelic drugs of the future are drugs you haven't even heard of yet. So can you imagine what's coming? I mean, what I think. I think imagining what's coming is like trying to imagine the world that that Hillman conjures of the ancient world. I think it's so profoundly.

[A]

He just texted me. Yeah, he just texted me 10 minutes ago.

[B]

What did he say?

[A]

He said, what is a Christian? I love his text, bro.

[B]

Oh, man, he's. He's a true gem.

[A]

He is one of a kind.

[B]

He's hilarious. Yeah.

[A]

What did you make of the debate with him and the guy?

[B]

Luke, that was incredible. I learned. I mean, I learned a lot. Yeah, I learned a lot. That guy is sharp. I mean. Yeah, the linguistic stuff was, you know, I don't know. That was really cool how he knew a lot about the words form, like, he's breaking down your name and all this other shit. It was like. Okay, that was. Was cool. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was great. Yeah, I liked it. I wasn't familiar with him. Of course. I know Fritz gra. I'm familiar with Fritz Groff and Sarah Li Johnson and the whole OSU crowd. Hugh Urban, you know, that's a. OSU is a powerhouse. It's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I thought it was a really, really interesting debate. And, you know, I'm into this stuff.

[A]

I learned a lot too. It was fascinating. What of the biggest things I got, I took away from it was his description of how the. The Jew, the Hebrew, they use that word mashiach for rubbing oil on the forehead. And that was like their religious tradition of anointing a king or a religious leader or something like that. And then, like, Greek was the metropolitan language that already existed all over the place. So for them to fit into society, they had to translate everything they had into Greek. And the most obvious word they had in green, Greek to use for that mashiach anointing word was creo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is Christing, which was also a word that was used to apply to anything like poisons. To arrows or like to the bottom of ships to make them more buoyant or to put on roofs. And yeah, that context was really interesting.

[B]

What about right afterwards? I sent you the obituary. What a coincidence that a couple days after you aired the debate, the guy who discovered the silver scrolls of proto Hebrew.

[A]

That was crazy.

[B]

Yeah, that was interesting.

[A]

The guy died. He probably saw the podcast and it probably gave him a heart attack.

[B]

I think it did. I.

[A]

The guy who found the silver proto Hebrew scrolls. Canaanite, right? Was that what it was?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It was the language.

[B]

Proto Hebrew?

[A]

No, there was a different word. I think it was Canaanite.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

It was one of the two. It was. But the thing was, those scrolls, they didn't look like anything. They just looked like a bunch of lines carved in it. Didn't look like the Hebrew they put next next to it.

[B]

The stuff I saw in the New York Times, I thought did. I mean, they were little shards. That looks like.

[A]

Pull up those scrolls.

[B]

Yeah, pull it up.

[A]

Hunnam. What were the names of the scrolls again? Something Hunnam scrolls. Silver scrolls with proto Hebrew Silver. How.

[B]

And you know, in the obituary was talking about how they. How difficult it was for them to. To unroll it without breaking it and destroying it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Sketchy stuff. What are these? All right, what are these scrolls called, Steve? Ketif Hinnim scrolls. Punch it on that bad boy. Yeah, it looks like chicken scratch. It looks like chicken scratch, bro. And I don't know how you. I mean, that's a kind of a bad squished image. You can't really see the Hebrew.

[B]

I mean, think about the variety of.

[A]

How are you getting that Hebrew from that chicken scratch?

[B]

Well, Danny, think about if right now we got three pieces of paper and me, you and Steve all wrote. We picked a paragraph, commonly known paragraph, and we all wrote it down. I mean, do you have nice handwriting?

[A]

No.

[B]

You don't?

[A]

No.

[B]

Is it just pure garbage?

[A]

It's pure garbage.

[B]

Okay. No, so. And you're judging their handwriting now? I'm joking.

[A]

But if I'm writing it on silver, my handwriting will improve drastically.

[B]

All of us will be weird. I'm left handed, so I have weird handwriting. To where the thing. So I think, you know, I don't know. That's. That's just my assumption. Assumption on this, you know, probably.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If it doesn't. I mean. What? I don't know. I mean, how. Not everybody writes beautifully. I mean, I know people that write beautifully and I know like my. I have Friends who I cannot even read their writing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just like, what the hell is

[A]

the crazy thing about the ancient world is all this stuff is passed down through, like, copies of copies of. Copies of. Copies of oral. Of thousands of years of oral traditions. So, like, dude, one of the psychologists brought up, said to me the other day, which is probably something that's very common that most people know, but it was the first. The first time it really, like, landed with me. She was talking about Adam and Eve in the garden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or whatever. And how, like, she ate the apple. Right. They ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge,

[B]

which was a mushroom. Says. Awesome.

[A]

No, these. So she was saying she was making the. The case that she. She equated that to, like, the written word, like knowledge. The apple to her was. Resembles like learned knowledge, like reading a book and memorizing knowledge versus true knowing something. Yeah.

[B]

Like gnosis.

[A]

Right, right. And she's like that. Like the written word and language and this type of thing is the one way to the, like the. The best way to deceive and lie.

[B]

I just think there's something into that,

[A]

you know, because there's no way through this history of, of written tradition that's been copied and copied over millennia to know what the truth was back then. Especially when.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, how much reality is missing? I mean, say this book is about Vietnam. I have a book now. This is about the Vietnam War. People take. I know everything about Vietnam. Exactly. But how much is missing? Almost everything.

[A]

The guy who wrote that book based that book on other history books he read from people who weren't even there.

[B]

Where's the smell? Where's the sight? There's what we call human experience. It's missing almost everything. Right. So it's, it's. It's extremely limited what you can learn from that. And a good historian will acknowledge those limits and say, you know, look, this is just as much as we can know, which, as you're pointing out is just.

[A]

Knowledge is satanic.

[B]

And, And, And. Right. You could argue that. And that it's as deceiving as it is as anything else. It's one kind of knowing, which I think what you're pointing out is it's incredibly impoverished.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much can you know? And is it more deceiving than anything else? Yeah, I think there's probably a pretty good argument.

[A]

I think there's a very good.

[B]

I think that's a really radical idea.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I think so. I mean, because you're essentially arguing what. That we can't really, really know Anything. You know, a lot of people have wanted this. Right.

[A]

We can know, thought we could know stuff, but we got to put down the books and we got to go to the rainforest.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

And you know, there's people that talk about like there's folks that talk about going to the rainforest for the first time with no technology, no phones, no nothing and just like the sounds of the insects and the ruffling of the leaves and just being out there away from society and high technology just sort of like awakens something in you. You know, like people describe that when they go down there.

[B]

Well, we're animals and we've now encased oursel in a completely artificial reality which doesn't seem to be very good for our. Right.

[A]

We're like the, we're like the killer whales in the seaworld in the tank.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We're out of. We're outside of nature.

[B]

Great analogy. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. You know, I think it's fascinating that the great whites are one that you can't keep contained. And why, why is that? I really think if.

[A]

Is that the only shark that we don't contain?

[B]

That I, that, that I know of. I. They've. What's the longest they've ever kept a great white in captivity? Captivity? I think it's a year maybe.

[A]

That's a good question.

[B]

But find that out. What I think, I think that you've come to a really good point. And why is that? This really challenges our system. This is kind of the overarching thing of everything we're talking about. Why there's something more, there's something that transcends all of you. Well, if you keep him at 76 degrees and he likes to eat 70 fish a day. There's something that transcends all of our statistics. We've become a people of statistics.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Statistics used to be extremely hard to come by.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But now our entire world is made of.

[A]

Yeah. And this is the case.

[B]

Jason. Jason.

[A]

Joni makes which is the, the, the, the buildup of the hyper analytical mind directly correlates with the degration of the psychic mind.

[B]

I think there's something to that. What is this?

[A]

Jaws lied. The real reason great whites can't be displayed in captivity.

[B]

Well then what is it?

[A]

What is the real reason? Let's tell it us quick. Take the longest captivity of Great White lasted 198 days at the Monterey Bay Aquarium. Great whites must maintain continuous swimming and high oxygen intake, making captivity inherently incompatible. Right. Public fascination with jaws field endless capture attempts.

[B]

They're saying that need to maintain high speeds to live.

[A]

They have, they need a lot. They need a long Runway.

[B]

I don't. There's no way to prove that, that they need high speed. They're big ass sharks and they can't suck water and pass. Okay, maybe that's good. No. Okay, maybe that's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know though. Is there. I don't know. I don't know. I'm skeptical of that. I mean it is just a suggestion. I mean, I don't know. You know, I was. Maybe, you know, I'm. Maybe I'm not right. But I just had this sense that these. There's something that dies if there's not some kind of hunt going on or just can't, can't survive and without totally a wildness. Because there is something to that for the modern, you know.

[A]

Well, look at the whale, bro. The killer whale. I mean it killed a bunch of trainers. Got killed. Their dorsal fins flop over.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're definitely like suffering from mental illness.

[B]

Exactly. And hey, have you seen all that? You know how shark, shark attacks are on the increase. Did you see this recent one?

[A]

I see this every summer.

[B]

I am loving this. I am absolutely loving this. This woman. Oh, this is horrible. I shouldn't even tell this story, bro.

[A]

Okay, this, we're already two and a half hours in.

[B]

You can tell it this, this woman, she led a class. This is up in New York or Maine or something, but she leads this class. It was all over the news to where she has the little ducklings who follow her. And they're child swimmers. Well, this guy was over in the spot, it's a mile from shore and he, they got the shark, great white shark snatches his leg off. Well, they're like, we're still going to swim there. So she goes off with the little ducklings. The little ducklings are behind her. There's like 20 of them. She's swimming. She's the swim teacher. They all have these bracelets that you put. Put around your ankle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That supposedly submits some sort of electromagnetic frequency that keep the sharks away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, we now have very good proof they didn't work because she went, she disappeared. Everyone looked around. The shark pops back up. It's. She's completely in its mouth and then it goes back down.

[A]

Where is this?

[B]

Oh, look, it's. It's one of the latest shark attacks. I can't remember. In. Maybe it was in California. I don't remember.

[A]

But are you sure this wasn't the one? In Egypt.

[B]

No, it wasn't.

[A]

Did you see the one in Egypt?

[B]

No, it's a white lady.

[A]

Oh, oh.

[B]

Like a new one.

[A]

This one was a couple years ago in Egypt. This kid, this Russian kid was, was kaying around right off the beach in Egypt. And this, there's full video of this tiger shark just devouring this kid while he's screaming for his dad. And his dad's filming the whole thing.

[B]

Absolutely horrific.

[A]

You can see same thing. You see the shark come up. Like, you see him get pulled down, he comes back up, shark comes down, the kid spins around, the blood, the water's red. And then you see the final thing where the shark comes up, bites down on his shoulder, and the kid just is gone.

[B]

Well, they're questioning this. You know, when Jaws came out, you know, they were saying, oh, stop putting out this false.

[A]

This was December 29th.

[B]

This is it.

[A]

Erica Fox's husband said she was still in her wet suit and wearing a shark band designed to deter attacks when her body was recovered from the ocean six days after she went missing.

[B]

Go down. I'm telling you, this was one of. Yeah, this is it. She didn't want to live in fear wearing a Garmin watch.

[A]

Wow, that's one way to go, bro.

[B]

Hey, I'm telling you, I mean, I do think that's pretty amazing, but. But the picture, to me, of someone who saw Jaws whenever I was young, and I still think it's one of the, maybe the greatest film ever coming up of the it coming up with her in his mouth. I was like, this, to me personally, is the most bear. Okay, fine, Mountain lion.

[A]

Okay, that's how people say that serial killer.

[B]

Okay, but the shark serial killer, Hell no.

[A]

And people try to paint it as like, oh, that's not, it's not fair to sharks. They're not out to kill humans. No, that is how you should think about sharks.

[B]

They're out to kill you.

[A]

They are 100% out to kill you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

If you're in the water, you have to like those, those things are killers, bro. And the people that try to paint them on their social media, there's people that like live in Hawaii that swim with them.

[B]

Oh, they thought you were seal.

[A]

This beautiful 2000 pound tiger shar shark, she's so, she's so gorgeous. She's just misunderstood. Well, no, what you don't understand is that that tiger shark is very well fed and used to divers being around it and feeding it all the time. So they're not gonna like attack and kill that woman. She's painting it as to be this like gentle creature when in reality things. A killing machine. Yeah.

[B]

You go out there and if it's, if it's harmless, you go out there and feed it. That's what I want to say, dude.

[A]

One of the craziest things, I was on the North Shore of Hawaii watching these people. There's people that live on the North Shore of Hawaii that every single night at sunset they go like quarter mile offshore by themselves and they swim miles down the beach. On the north shore of Hawaii, which is known for lots of tiger sharks killing people like that terrifying, man.

[B]

Oh, but you know what the guy says, it's a, of this story he's, he tells, you know, this, this, the, the, the woman who got eaten, her husband saw it. He was watching from the shore. And the guy who got bit right before her, this was a couple of months before her, he said, look, I just want to tell you she wasn't in any pain because when it took one of his limbs off, he said, I felt absolutely nothing. Shark attack. And I thought, is that because of shock? But yeah, that to me was like the most terrifying ending. I was like, that's even scarier.

[A]

Yeah, it's something that happens in the human brain that like it happens when you're being eaten alive by a wild animal. You go into this shock state where you, you don't feel the pain.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

It's been described by a lot of people that have been bitten by sharks.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

Yeah, they feel it just like, as a, as a tugging feeling. Yeah, like I felt something tug me and it was like a dull tugging pain. I looked down in my half. My legs gone.

[B]

My legs gone. Dude. To me that's ultimate horror.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

But surfing, I mean, like, like you

[B]

don't know, you're the beach. You don't know if anybody's going to eat my shark.

[A]

No, I don't know anybody who's been eaten. I know a lot of people have been bitten. The shark attack capital of the world is right a couple hours away from here. New Smart Beach, Florida.

[B]

Oh, that's where my dad lives.

[A]

They're smaller beach. They're smaller sharks. They're like little black tips and spinner sharks.

[B]

So they won't kill you?

[A]

No, they won't kill you. You'll get a couple stitches or whatever. And there's report, there's almost a report every day during the summer. It's crazy.

[B]

So they just nip at you.

[A]

I mean, I've been surfing over there in, like, Ponce Inlet, New Smyrna beach area before, like, growing up, where, like, we're. I'm paddling out into the waves and there's sharks hydroplaning all around me, eating bait fish. And you're just swimming right through them because, like, the waves are so goddamn good and you're gonna get. So. You're gonna catch so many fun waves, it's almost worth the stitches. If there's such a low probability. You know, there's hundreds of people out there all day long, and maybe a couple people will get bit a week. So the probability is low. And they're not like, great whites or like, tiger sharks or anything like that.

[B]

If like 50 of them got you at the same time, they might like Terry.

[A]

Yeah, that would happen, too. Yeah. If that happened, that would be terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I've been in situations like that, too. One time I was in the Bahamas, we were filming this. Filming this show where we went out and there's this. These shark dives you can do in the Bahamas where they chum up the water and they get all the reef sharks to circle around, and then people go in and. And they dive in with the reef sharks. They're getting fed, and you're basically in a tornado of sharks.

[B]

And you did it?

[A]

I did it. I jumped out of a helicopter into the tornado of sharks, I swear to God.

[B]

You jumped out of a helicopter in the middle of the sharks?

[A]

I jumped out of the helicopter in the middle of a tornado of sharks in the Bahamas. Reef sharks. They weren't like. Like, man. But if one of them. The problem is if one of those sharks accidentally bit me and I. There was some blood. All Hunt. All 200 of them would have devoured me. Cool. Yeah, it's pretty. That's gnarly.

[B]

What inspired you to do that? Jim Beam Whiskey?

[A]

No, just being young, and I was probably, like, 21 years old.

[B]

Wow. I. I love that. That's an experience they offer. Hey, jump out of this helicopter in the middle of a bunch of bloodthirsty sharks.

[A]

People. The problem. Most people that get killed by sharks are, like, in the. At least around here in the Bahamas, where there's, like, big tiger sharks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, they're spear fishing, shooting fish. And the tiger sharks have become accustomed to hearing the pops of the spear guns, the bands popping. And now they've become so accustomed to it, they start to show up when they hear bands from spear guns popping. They try to kill your fish, eat your fish. Bull sharks and tiger Sharks, mostly.

[B]

That's amazing. You know the psychedelic researcher John C. Lily? I know you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I know him. I had. I had Rick o' Barry in here.

[B]

Who's that?

[A]

He's the guy who made the COVID documentary.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that was killer.

[A]

He knew. He's also worked on Flipper. He trained Flipping. Flipper, the dolphin. Lily. He was boys with Lily.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[A]

And Lily was right there, funded by NASA.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doing all that, like, taking off the top of the heads of the dolphins, putting probes in there and stuff.

[B]

That's right. Hey, get this. This ties everything we're talking about together. That movie Day of the Dolphins with George C. Scott. That was. You know, Polanski was directing Rosemary's Baby when Sharon Tate got killed. The next movie he was supposed to do was Day of the Dolphins. Day of the Dolphins was when they. Is the John C. Lilly. It's not the complete John C. Lilly story, but it's partly. If you look it up, you'll see they weaponize the dolphins. They weaponize the dolphins. They put lasers and whatever on them and bombs on them and all this. And Polanski was supposed to direct it, but because Sharon Tate got killed, he dropped out of it.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And this is a movie based on the work of John C. Lilly. Of course, there's. There's that. There's Day of the Dolphins, there's Altered States, and then, of course, there's the game Echo the Dolphin. Right.

[A]

I played that.

[B]

But you got the Mansion. Yeah, that's a killer game. When I was a kid.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I played Echo.

[B]

Dude, I'm talking about. I've burned. I've had to have burned a thousand out. Me and my brother playing Echo. That game is off the hook. Yeah, they're bringing it back.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes, they're bringing it back. There's even a website for it where there's a countdown on. I'm like, dude, I'm like, I don't even play video games.

[A]

Didn't John Lily invent the flotation tank? The float the ant time? What was it? The. The. Not sensory deprivation tank.

[B]

He invented it in Bethesda, Maryland, at the National Institutes of Mental Health. And, yeah, it was. It was during the Korean War. And he was going. It was going to be a torture device. And he says in center of the Cyclone. Center of the Cyclones. What? Patty Chayefsky.

[A]

The Korean wars, when we came up with MK Ultra, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yep. And he was part of that. He was part of that stuff. Lily he created it in this janky room at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland. And it was supposed to be a torture device. And he said in center of the Cyclone, which is a killer book, he says, rather, when going in the tank, rather than going crazy, I found that my mind escaped my body and that it was a freeing experience. So, yes, he did create the sensory deprivation tank. I wrote a really long, long story about John Lilly, the first long profile of him that was on the Internet for a long time, and it may still be. It was called. It's called Escape. I wrote it for the Baltimore Sun. It's called Escape from Planet Earth. Psychedelics, Religion, and the outlaw scientist John C. Lilly or something like that. And so I. I read every book about Lily. I read all the books that Lily wrote. And then I also. The Stanford owns the archive of his stuff. And I collected all of everything I get from the archive that I thought related to the work. And we should bring up. There's a. Someone took. Someone beat me to the punch. And they have made a new film about Lily. And you should look up the trailer because it looks amazing. They showed it for the first time at the MAPS Conference in Denver, and it just got picked up by, I think, Oscilloscope, and it's coming into theaters.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. Look up the trailer. It's amazing.

[A]

Is it going to compete with the Melania movie?

[B]

Yes, it's way better than Lamania. Nothing. Well, hold on. Nothing can compete with the Melania movie.

[A]

Right.

[B]

First off, we just have to admit that. So it's called John C. Lilly and the Solid State Conspiracy.

[A]

Why did. Why did NASA fund him?

[B]

Well, he was. Because they funded him. He was in the. Basically, what happened was, was he ended up in the U.S. virgin Islands.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was studying interspecies communication. And he also was involved with. Who's the guy that made Cosmos into space? You know, he's a science popularizer.

[A]

Bill Nye?

[B]

No, the other guy before him. Carl Sagan.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

That. That place in West Virginia. And they were trying, basically, they thought they might be able to. To apply interspecies communication between humans and dolphins, humans and whales, to communication with what might be in outer space. So he was also involved in that. And it was called the Order of the Dolphin, and it was Carl Sagan, John C. Lay and a lot of other people. But the reason why they funded him is because John C. Lily is from St. Paul. Was from St. Paul, Minnesota. His father was a banker. He was from an extremely wealthy family.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. He went to the University of Pennsylvania. His brother invented toro lawnmowers. What? Yes.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Yes. But here's the book that people ought to read if they want to know about John Lilly. It's called. Nobody reads it. It's called John Lilly so far. And it's one of the bio. It's one of the few beside his biography is called the Scientist, which is really cool. But it's wacky because by then he was already crazier than hell. I've talked to a lot of people that knew Lily. Even Rick Strassman met Lily when he was at. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Is this the doctor?

[B]

Whoever made this, how did you get that?

[A]

It's unlisted. How did you find it? Gosh, I. I found an article. Yeah. An article. All right, play this. Hopefully we don't get a copyright.

[B]

I want to see this so bad. No, she's going to love it because we're promoting it.

[A]

All right, full screen. This whiskey's really. I predicted that in within a decade

[B]

or two that the human species would establish communication with another species. Terrestrial, possibly extraterrestrial, but most probably marine. So we call it the physical isolation tank.

[A]

Currently, there is somebody inside this tank

[B]

so that you can see what it's like. I think he wasn't here.

[A]

He's dead.

[B]

All I can say is I recommend

[A]

that you get terror stricken. Oh, my God.

[B]

Because it is the jet fuel which will carry you farther into the various states and farther out into the universes than anything else will. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Narrated back Poe Savini from Kids. What? Yeah, that's what it said. That's amazing. Whoever is making. Whoever made that, Kudos. Harmony.

[A]

Karine.

[B]

Amazing. Harmony Korean. He's a Florida guy.

[A]

He is.

[B]

We.

[A]

What is. What was his. This is great. What was Harmony Creed's response when we asked him to come on the podcast? He's absolutely disinterested. He doesn't care. He couldn't be more disinterested. Which is like.

[B]

Yeah, kudos. Yeah.

[A]

To like the fudgeing honesty there, you

[B]

know, his father was really interesting documentary filmmaker who made. Was very. Was interested in hillbilly music and he made a movie.

[A]

Karine's father.

[B]

Yes. His dad was a folklorist and filmmaker and he made a movie about the 1920s, 1930s, probably one of the greatest country performers ever, Uncle Dave Macon, he made a movie about him. That's un. Believable. And it's. It's on Folk Streams, which shows a bunch of, like, folk documentaries. And you can watch his. His movies. So. Yeah, his dad was a filmmaker. I think Karine's from Tennessee. I'm not positive about that, but yeah, I. With Harmony. Kareem Big.

[A]

What was his dad's film? Was his dad's films like a. Like a big time? Where they were. They did. He made a lot of money.

[B]

No, they're folk movies. He's like, less blank. He would make. They were like, no money for production. Yeah, yeah, they were just documenting folk cultures.

[A]

Harmony Karine's one of my favorite movie makers of all time.

[B]

Did you see that new one he made with the. With whatever. What is this video game? What is it?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What is it? Have you.

[A]

I haven't seen it.

[B]

I want to see it.

[A]

What's the newest? What is that? That called?

[B]

What the hell is it called?

[A]

No, it's insane. It's like filmed in. It's like infrared, right? Yeah, it's like. Or no, no. Night vision maybe.

[B]

And he's creating these new mythological characters. I mean, the way he explained. He's definitely the most interesting American.

[A]

Pushing it. He's pushing the boundaries more. Innovating more than anything.

[B]

He lives down here in Florida.

[A]

He's in Miami.

[B]

I guess he's learned. Taken Hebrew lessons from J. Jared Kushner.

[A]

What? Shut the up.

[B]

Spirit of God. Look at up. I promise you.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Yes, he studied.

[A]

Where do you find this?

[B]

He's studying the Torah with Jared Kushner.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And doing fundraisers. You know, he. He does these paintings of like, Florida landscapes and sells them for outrageous amounts of money. And I guess he.

[A]

Harmony.

[B]

Yes. And he. He raises money for the IDF Israeli division.

[A]

Shut the.

[B]

I'm not joking.

[A]

I'm a genetically engineered podcaster. By Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

I promise you this is true. Everything I just told you is true.

[A]

You. He wrote.

[B]

He wrote. Yeah, it is. Look it up. He wrote.

[A]

This is his movie. Baby Invasion.

[B]

Edge Lord. No, it's not Baby Invasion, is it?

[A]

What is Baby Invasion?

[B]

That's his studio, the Edge Lord. But I don't think this is the movie.

[A]

This is the most recent thing that popped up 10. 10 months old to play it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, this is. That movie was from like two years ago.

[A]

Is that harmony of rolls?

[B]

Roy? Wow, this is amazing.

[A]

He's on another level.

[B]

We have to. You. I don't have the words out of my mouth. We must admit, hate him or love him, that he's on another.

[A]

He is in another universe. There's nobody like Harmony. Karine.

[B]

What the hell?

[A]

But that's not the night vision movie I was thinking of.

[B]

No, that was a couple years ago.

[A]

Type in Harmony Kareem Night vision movie.

[B]

Florida based project. Baby Invasion. Danny, you got to get in this mother. Come on now.

[A]

Oh my God. K O R I N. You seen Gummo? Oh, yeah, I've seen Gummo.

[B]

Yeah. No, that wasn't it. You seen. But he's in eastern Kentucky.

[A]

Hang on, wait a second. What are you saying about him in the idf?

[B]

He does fundraisers for the idf. Yeah, search that. Look it up.

[A]

Harmony Karine. IDF Jeff just.

[B]

He's studying Hebrew with Jared Kushner. Complicit. Look, complicit in apartheid. Told you. Told you. Raised over 10 million. Ja. In the recent Java. Oh, that's Jared and Ivanka, right?

[A]

Harmony, Karine, Harmony and Rachel, that's his wife, were part of a November 2023 FIDF Friends of Israel Defense Forces fundraiser in Miami, Florida that raised 10 million million to directly support the Zionist army committing genocide in Palestine.

[B]

What website is this? This is not a reporting website.

[A]

This doesn't seem like a legitimate website, does it?

[B]

Well, it is. I think it's. The information is correct. But they're adding a spin on it.

[A]

Yeah, they added the genocide in Gaza stuff, right?

[B]

Yeah, I told you. He is. He really is. And he's friends with game publisher A in this.

[A]

I mean, what?

[B]

Yeah, I mean it shouldn't be surprising. I mean, think about this guy is a iconoclast. I mean, he is. He is a weirdo if there ever was.

[A]

That was a. That's a curveball, bro. I was not expecting that.

[B]

Well, I think that we have this.

[A]

I burned out and started mowing lawns. A reality bending chat with harmony Karine from 2024. Yeah, no mention of IDF though. No.

[B]

Motherfucker. First thing was showed you. That's real information. I mean, click on that.

[A]

Israel company. Does Harmony Korean support Israel Palestine? Just some form. Harmony Korean is a filmmaker, artist, influencer, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Part of a 2023 FIDF Friends of Israel Defense Forces fundraiser.

[B]

Okay, what's kind of. This is. No, hold on. Just stop on this.

[A]

Israel.com.

[B]

look at this red thing at the top. Supports Israel. This is weird.

[A]

Israel.

[B]

We're going to get on.

[A]

I saw an interview with Tucker Carlson in interviewing this guy who's supposed to be the new running for governor of Florida.

[B]

I saw that.

[A]

You saw that?

[B]

Yeah. I don't like him. I didn't like him.

[A]

He was weird.

[B]

Very robotic now, I think canceled.

[A]

I don't. I don't Is he really?

[B]

Yeah, he was trying to screw some 15 year old.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Allegedly.

[A]

Well, all the politicians are trying to do that. Yeah, but he's saying, like, he was saying that DeSantis is giving, like hundreds of millions of dollars of Florida taxpayer money to Israel.

[B]

Well, that may be true, but don't believe anything that guy said. He's a politician.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I worked on political campaigns in Baltimore. I went to school for public policy. And I thought, I'm going to get involved in politics and I'm going to do so much good. And it was the most. Made me more profoundly disillusioned than anything I've ever done. I was like, oh, God.

[A]

Well, this is our current Governor DeSantis. He passed some law in Florida, in Israel, about like it was. It was some sort of law.

[B]

You can't criticize.

[A]

You can't criticize Zionism or Israel.

[B]

Israel completely, greatly against that. I don't like that at all.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a good look when you're a governor of Florida.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Trump, Trump country. Right. You know, go in there wearing your Yamaka kiss in the wall and passing laws about, you know, protecting speech against Jewish people.

[B]

Florida is, I mean, I think the harmony Kareem being here doing all this crazy.

[A]

It's kind of the video of the lady in Miami Beach. No, there was a lady in Miami Beach a couple weeks ago who posted something about. She posted something criticizing the mayor of Miami.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For his support for Israel. And cops showed up at her door. Yeah, Armed cops showed up at her door. About. About the Facebook post that she made.

[B]

It doesn't surprise me.

[A]

And it blew up. It was all over the news because of that. She filmed the whole interaction.

[B]

Well, they were. The previous administration was doing this for people that posted stuff about support of Trump and different things like that. There was stuff. There have been things happening. This. And of course the uk this happens all the time. I mean, it's a crime in the UK if you.

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

It's insane what they're doing in the uk, but this is like exactly the same thing. Obviously, they didn't arrest her or anything like that, but the fact that the mayor of Miami. I read the article, the mayor of Miami called the sheriff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

About this. Facebook. And it wasn't even a post. She commented on a post commenting about like the hypocrisy or something like this guy. It was something to do with like a movie. Movie or something.

[B]

Well, I mean, you've seen the theater.

[A]

Wayne Jones. That's funny. My middle name is Wayne and my last name is Jones.

[B]

Your middle name is Wayne?

[A]

My middle name is Wayne.

[B]

Where does that come from?

[A]

I have no idea. My dad's middle name is Wayne.

[B]

My dad's or my uncle's name is Wayne. But that's a country thing.

[A]

Yeah, well, my dad's from up north somewhere.

[B]

Where? Oh, you mean somewhere.

[A]

I think Pennsylvania. Somewhere in Pennsylvania.

[B]

Oh, okay. All right.

[A]

But yeah, so. So, yeah, the. The mayor called Wayne Jones and sent him this Facebook post. And what was she saying? So. So, okay.

[B]

Consistently calls for the death.

[A]

So that's. Apparently she was saying that the mayor calls for the death of Palestinians, which is probably not true. Exactly. But the guy's a huge supporter of Israel. And just for that. For that post. They showed up armed. Armed police officers showed up at her house. Or investigators.

[B]

We live in an idiotic society.

[A]

We do, bro.

[B]

It's pretty horrible. I mean, everything is boiled down. They said this. He said this whole. Who gives a.

[A]

It's free speech.

[B]

And this is.

[A]

And.

[B]

And show us on the doll where our desert you.

[A]

Florida. Of all of all states. This is Florida.

[B]

Hey, look. Hey, Steve, will you see who is the head of the police in Miami?

[A]

Dude, I'm kind of drunk right now.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, bro. I'm a lightweight. Lightweight. I don't drink.

[B]

Ever.

[A]

That would be manual morale.

[B]

Okay. I thought it was this. It was this guy Hatfield. Put the word Hatfield in and see what comes up. Rio Hatfield III is the chief of police for South Miami. Hey, I used to work for this guy when I first got out of high school. I went to work for this guy, Rio Hatfield, who tried to be governor of Virginia. And I drove a forklift, like loading Kmart into trucks. And. And this is his son. He and up going to prison.

[A]

What?

[B]

But this is. This is. Somebody told me his son was the chief of police in Miami. And I was like, there's no way it's the same person. But it is. Oh, my God. He's not.

[A]

Find a picture of this guy.

[B]

Chief of police for South Miami. That's him. Wow, he looks just like his dad. Yeah, look. Hey, the third picture down on the far left. Third picture.

[A]

White hair guy.

[B]

Yes, that's his dad.

[A]

Far left.

[B]

That's who I used to work for. Yeah. Waynesboro, Virginia. This guy loves.

[A]

Looks like he could go to jail for some.

[B]

He was my first real.

[A]

In a federal penitentiary.

[B]

Yeah, no, he got out. Now he's running this vineyard, squashing grapes

[A]

and feuds Rio Hatfield.

[B]

He tried to play up this Hatfield winery. Yeah, he's working. He's the CEO of a wine right now. Shout out Rio. Thanks for the job, Rio. Yeah, sorry you had to go to.

[A]

Bro, I got to piss again.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

I'll be right back, bro. Pull up that. Pull up that. The screenshots from that video about me and Jesse being genetically genetic. Genetic.

[B]

Genetically engineered goy slop, I think is what they said.

[A]

Genetically Engineered goy slop. Podcasters by Jeffrey.

[B]

We'll have you know Museum of Taro. We are local organic farm to table goy slop. There's actually a huge difference. We actually came up with this on our own.

[A]

I actually like the story. I think I'm going to roll with it. I think, I think it makes it. I think it makes it more interesting. Steve, you got to find the screenshot.

[B]

Jones already sent his lawyers after that. He took that down.

[A]

I'm going to let that ride, son. There you go. Look at that. Was Epstein genetically engineering?

[B]

Danny. Danny, you are a very handsome child. And I wish you would have mentioned earlier clear that you knew Jeffrey.

[A]

It does look like me when I was a kid. Does it really? My hair was the same color.

[B]

I didn't know Jeffrey visited Clearwater.

[A]

No, I might have been down. I was in the. I spent a lot of time in the Caribbean when I was young.

[B]

Who were those like impoverished third world looking children with you?

[A]

Well, that's Jesse Michaels.

[B]

Just childhood friends. Jesse Michaels.

[A]

That's Jesse Michaels on the left.

[B]

Who's that? I don't know.

[A]

He, you know, you know, he's a. He's a podcaster or a podcaster and he's a fantastic documentarian.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What does he make?

[A]

He, he makes documentaries about like the history of UFOs and like UFO technology and like all the history of everything like as far as like the. The U. S. Military involvement in all this stuff and like like buried secret physics programs and experiments. Like he is a. A mastermind encyclopa of encyclopedic knowledge on the history of all this stuff.

[B]

And you guys work for Epstein but direct.

[A]

Well, you know, it's funny enough he used to work for Peter Teal.

[B]

You're kidding.

[A]

No. This is real.

[B]

Oh great.

[A]

He used to be. Because he, he, he. He used to do like financial. Something to do with like he managed finance part of his portfolio for Peter Teal. But like he doesn't. It's this.

[B]

Exactly. Engineer go.

[A]

Well, that's an inconvenient connection. It's. It has nothing to do with.

[B]

I'm writing a book called, called More Chaos. Yeah, he has Danny Jones and Genetics,

[A]

but he is just genuinely interested in like, the history of like, rocketry and UFOs and space programs and all that stuff. And he's just, he's a really smart.

[B]

Well, is that picture of you? Is that. That's a legitimate picture. Is that a mug shot?

[A]

Did you get a new idea on the left? Yeah, that's my passport photo. I don't know how that got on.

[B]

How the hell did they get your.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know where they got that. Why didn't they just use a picture for me on the podcast?

[B]

What is Music Museum of Tarot?

[A]

So this is a guy who's been on my show before.

[B]

Oh, so it's arrival? No, I invited him on my show

[A]

because I thought he was interesting and I, I, we talked about, about what is his expertise. What, what is his expertise?

[B]

Climbing people.

[A]

He, he just, he studies stuff on his own and he travels places and he's, he's got a museum.

[B]

So he works for the CIA.

[A]

He's all, he's all into, like the parapsychology, telepathy stuff, I think.

[B]

So he's a crank.

[A]

He called. No, he seemed legitimate. That's why I asked him all like, he seemed like he had like a nuanced perspective on things when I. That's why I originally invited him on because, you know, he knows a lot about the history of the UFO stuff. He had like a. A reasonable knowledge, a deep knowledge of this stuff. And I was like, oh, this got to be fun to talk to. So I invited him on and then, you know, then this comes out.

[B]

At some point, there was an unreturned email.

[A]

He's also has me blocked on all social media. I couldn't see this post at all. He's got me blocked on Instagram, on all my Instagram accounts.

[B]

He's hoping that this feud produces some attention for his crappy show.

[A]

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But he's huge on Tik Tok. I found him on Tik Tok.

[B]

He is.

[A]

You know what else he told me?

[B]

What does he do? Let's look at his stuff.

[A]

He told me on the show Psycho Critical Appraisal. Have you ever heard of Steven Greer?

[B]

Steven Greer? Oh, that's the UFO guy you had on your show.

[A]

He told me. Steven Greer.

[B]

He was on right after me last time you had it. He had like a millions of views.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he me. Told me that that was genetically engineered. He told me Steven Greer could have been from. He could have been like a. A massage.

[B]

I saw this guy. I saw this episode with this guy.

[A]

So this. This vindicates Stephen Greer.

[B]

I remember this. I remember this now. Yeah, that guy did seem to be pretty knowledgeable.

[A]

He seemed like totally sane.

[B]

But he was also had this kind of macho thing against Greer and. Yeah, yeah, he passes. This guy.

[A]

He brought in a newspaper clipping from Greer's wedding in Hia.

[B]

Yeah, I saw. And he. He accused him of being homosexual.

[A]

Yes, that too.

[B]

I saw this episode. I promise you.

[A]

Yes, that too.

[B]

This is this guy. Yeah, he's. He's. All he's trying to do is embroil you in a feud and hoping that it gives him some popularity, cuz I hope he's probably sinking. Well, we're going to help it right now.

[A]

Yeah, let's help it. This is the guy.

[B]

This is him. This is.

[A]

Look at this guy.

[B]

Influenced by voice to skull mind control technology, we tried. Very interesting question. During people. Remember when there were people you said got lost in the sauce? Your word. Looking at one. I mean, actually, he's just a grifter. He's not even lost his. It's giving people too much credit to think they, you know, that they got lost in the sauce because. Yeah, he's just flat out a grifter.

[A]

Yeah. I like the story though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had so many people hit me up about this. It was crazy.

[B]

Really? Today. Did this happen today?

[A]

Last. No, it happened a couple days ago.

[B]

Oh, I did.

[A]

I had so many people messaging me

[B]

about it, saying, what are they just

[A]

sending it to me and laughing. I was going to say, this is hilarious. Some people said. I knew it, I knew it.

[B]

I knew.

[A]

Might be true. It might be true. I don't know. I don't know. I guess we're going to have to find out.

[B]

I mean, we're all from Scientology hq.

[A]

Time will tell.

[B]

That's hilarious. In the middle, who's in the green shirt? That's the scientist.

[A]

That's Bob Lazar. That is Bob.

[B]

Who is that? I don't know.

[A]

You know who Bob Lazar is?

[B]

No.

[A]

He's the guy who came out who claimed he worked at Area 51 and S4 and. And helped reverse engineer flying saucers in the 90s.

[B]

And you had him on.

[A]

No, he's. I think the only podcast he's ever been on is Rogan.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And yeah, he was like one of the biggest whistleblowers ever about this UFO stuff. Did you.

[B]

You think it's legit or.

[A]

Oh, I think he's legit for sure.

[B]

Really? And what, he wrote a popular book or something?

[A]

No, he just came out there. There was a guy named George Knapp who was a UFO researcher and back in the 80s and 90s who was trying, who heard Bob Lazar's story and he was trying to get him to, to document it on camera or whatever. And Bob was like, no, no, I'm afraid to do that. I'm afraid for my life, my, my safety, all this stuff. And he basically like finally got Bob to do it on camera and he had, and he had him tell his whole story about how he was recruited to work. He was working at Los Alamos. He got recruited to a. This top secret program working at S4. He got flown in on one of these Janet flights to Las Vegas and they brought it, put him through this crazy security screening and eventually they brought him in to this hangar where there was like seven flying saucers that they explained to him were found in archaeological digs. And he explained going into the flying saucers, there was no seams. Everything was seamless. The chairs were built in. It was made for like chilled, like childlike sized people. People. And, and this person's still alive. That's Bob. Yeah, he's still alive.

[B]

He's still alive.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

I don't believe that.

[A]

And well, yeah, I mean, he docks himself pretty well. Like he's been all, all over media saying this stuff. He's been on Joe Rogan's podcast saying this stuff. And, and you know, a lot of the stuff he says checks out. He met a lot of people from like the Manhattan Project at mit. He went to, allegedly went to MIT to, To research this stuff. And I, I mean, his story knows, never changed over the years. And, and you know, whether it was like intentional disinformation that was fed to him or, or what, or whether he was a part of some mind control thing, I.

[B]

But he's an entrepreneurial type.

[A]

No, he's not. He's not trying to sell anything. That's the thing. And, and you know, he comes off as genuine. He comes off. You know, my sniff test is that he's telling the truth. He believes what he's saying, whether or not there's some sort of level of deception involved inter, intertwangled into it.

[B]

So what is your. I asked you earlier about the remote view. What is your. Do you. Or about the Epstein thing. Do you have any general take of, of what about The UFO thing. I mean, are you convinced? I guess. Here's my question. Are you completely convinced that an alien species, an extraterrestrial alien species, has visited Earth and that, do you think?

[A]

No, I'm not convinced.

[B]

You're not convinced?

[A]

I'm not convinced it's extraterrestrial. I'm certainly convinced that there's some cases where there are. Are beings that aren't human, that are humanoid, have been captured by the US Government, kept secret.

[B]

Do you think that's for. Without a doubt, that that has happened?

[A]

I would bet. I would bet that has happened, yeah. From the people I've talked to. Yeah. And, you know, I believe most likely that it is a civilization that exists on Earth on another plane, like in the water, maybe in. Under the oceans or something like that. And like, maybe we are on just some like, lower plane of existence, distance than they are. They have the ability to manipulate space time, cloak themselves, remain invisible.

[B]

Reptilian shapeshifter.

[A]

Yes, reptilian shapeshifters. Interdimensional job and.

[B]

Damn, that's a good impression.

[A]

He's my uncle.

[B]

You got the vocals

[A]

and. Yeah, yeah, I think. You know. And you know.

[B]

Have you met Alex Jones?

[A]

Never.

[B]

No.

[A]

No. You know, I'm a fan though. For sure.

[B]

You're a fan, man. When I was. I graduated high school in 2001, and then eventually I moved to Virginia beach because my brother was in the Navy. And there was a new age bookstore there called Heritage Bookstore. And at that time, like 2003, 2004, you know, Alex Jones was like a left figure. He had a book. He had all of his. That they had at the bookstore and. And that he had DVDs. They were all about Bush, like Bush. And he was in the Richard Linklater movie, the Philip K. Dick adaptation, Through a Glass Darkly that Keith Keanu Reeves in it. And he's in the movie Scanner Darkly. Scanner Darkly. And you know, he was like a far left figure at that time. Yeah.

[A]

He was trying to expose Bohemian Grove.

[B]

Bohemian Grove, yeah. This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. I've got good news and bad news.

[A]

Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients.

[B]

The good news, There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar Plant protein bars to empower doers to

[A]

like you with clean, delicious, low sugar

[B]

brain and body fuel. IQ bars are packed with 12 grams

[A]

of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's mane. And zero weird stuff.

[B]

And right now you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks.

[A]

Clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, Caffeinate larger with IQ Bar.

[B]

Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. To get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and Enter code BAR20. This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. I've got good news and bad news.

[A]

Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients.

[B]

The good news, There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar plant products protein bars to empower doers

[A]

like you with clean, delicious, low sugar

[B]

brain and body fuel. IQ bars are packed with 12 grams

[A]

of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's Mane and Zero Weird Stuff.

[B]

And right now you can get 20%

[A]

off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping.

[B]

Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks.

[A]

Clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love

[B]

love how you feel.

[A]

Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, Caffeinate larger with IQ Bar.

[B]

Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. To get 20 off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiq bar.com and enter code BAR20. Did you. You play. I think you played the. The Nixon clips. I think I saw that on your show where you played Nixon talking about Bohemian Grove.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

San Francisco crowd.

[A]

Yeah. Alex has been on to for a long time. He's got predicted a lot of too. But he also which people don't realize is like people are bad at predicting at measuring probabilities. He. He throws a lot of at the wall.

[B]

He does a ton of the wall. He makes a lot of psychedelic thing like he was on Tucker Carlson and he was like it opens up and hanging to the fifth dimension and like.

[A]

Well, he predicted 911.

[B]

I saw that. That is creepy. I saw the documentary about him which was supposed to be like a hit of piece piece but I thought was kind of fair about him. I thought it came off as very fair.

[A]

What documentary?

[B]

It's a few years ago. It was a very mange. Probably the biggest documentary that's ever been made about him in the very mainstream Jones. Yes. Huh.

[A]

What's it called?

[B]

It came out around the time of when he was being sued and losing a lot of money.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Sandy Hook thing. I don't remember. You could look it up.

[A]

Yeah, look, he gets a lot of wrong and he probably gets more.

[B]

The 911 thing was he, he throws

[A]

so much at the wall, people forget about the stuff that he gets wrong. It kind of gets overlooked. They people. You only focus on the things that, that he gets right. Right. Those are the things that are. Become meaningful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, you know, I was talking to this psychiatrist from Harvard the other day and she was like, she was talking about like. Oh, you know, there's this phenomena that happens when you think about somebody you haven't thought about in 10 years and they call you. It's happened to everybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's psychic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But how many times have you thought about a person you never thought about before and they don't call you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't, you don't categorize that thing. You don't think about that.

[B]

Yeah. Coincidence. Yeah, coincidence.

[A]

Yeah. So that's like with Alex Jones. Oh, it's called the Truth versus Alex Jones. There are quite a few.

[B]

Maybe. No, that's not it. Maybe Alex's war, New world order. I think it's maybe Alex's war. It's not for the front line when frontline has become garbage.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Moyer film a study character. I think it's the Moyer one. I think it's Alex's war. Yeah, it's Alex's war. That's it. Yeah, I thought that was pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, bro, I think, I think there's definitely. Have you ever heard of the Virginia Brazil abduction or not? The abduct, The Virginia Brazil crash?

[B]

No.

[A]

There's this documentarian, James Fox who did this documentary, he did two documentaries on the. There's a alleged UFO crash in Virginia, Brazil in the 90s and there was like a dozen witnesses to it where. There was a dozen witnesses to a being where these, these school girls were walking through a field and they saw this being, this brown being with like red eyes. Eyes. They looked at it and they had this feeling of it communicating telepathically. And. And also there was these two police officers who captured the thing and one of the guys, Marco Sharizi, went and grabbed this like 20 year old cop from Brazil, grabbed this being who like was weak and, and trying to escape, grabbed him, put him in the back of the cop cruiser and brought him to a hospital. This guy later died of like a crazy virus and viral infection or something from the being from a scratch that he got and there's also X ray technicians and neur. And a neurosurgeon and multiple doctors who he interviewed that worked at this hospital who came out and said, yeah, this is real. This thing was in here. The whole hospital smelled like sulfur and ammonia for like a week afterwards. And like, this thing had cloven feet. It was a child size of a. Like a toddler.

[B]

Like Rosemary's baby, bro.

[A]

It sounded like the biblical explanation. Inclination of a demon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Smelling like sulfur with. With cloven feet.

[B]

You remember when Hugo shot before Maduro, you had Hugo Chavez.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He spoke with Bush at the UN and they said, you know what. What did it happen? And he said, well, it smelled like sulfur.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Alex Jones says Hillary Clinton smells like sulfur.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting guy. Texas guy.

[A]

Yeah. There's too many. I mean, I don't know. And then there's also the. The Zimbabwe encounter and the 90s, where those kids at that school in Rua, Zimbabwe, all explain this thing landing and like, all these little beings coming out and telepathically communicating with him. And the Harvard psychologist John Mack went out. John Mack went out there and interviewed them all. And they all drew pictures of what they saw. These are kids like, like between the ages of like 6 and 12.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Explaining what they saw. Like, they didn't have time to, like, plan out this deceptive campaign they were going to run against everyone. Like, they all individually. In these interviews, Drew exper. Like, talked about what they saw, what feelings were, what the telepathic communication was, which was like, technology is going to be very bad for you if you don't. If you let it get out of hand. And they drew pictures of it and it was like, so similar to this stuff. So, like, there's so much lore and like, eyewitness accounts, like maybe it's some sort of weird mind control or. Or. I mean, what do you think?

[B]

I mean, as far as in outer space, I mean, is it plausible that. Is it possible at all that. That there. That. That somebody could travel a far enough distance? I mean, I think it's just this profound mystery that we are on this planet and that we don't know if there's anything else in the universe. I mean, it is. The older I get, the trippier it is. I'm like, what the. I mean, when I was younger about this.

[A]

There has to be life out there.

[B]

You would think so, because we don't know the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The exact. Well, there's no per. As far as we know, there's no parameters.

[A]

Right. There's no Right, Yeah. It's like it's. And it's so, it's so vast and infinite. The probability is there has to be some sort of life out there. But the thing is, the thing, here's the thing with the popular lore about aliens and UFOs and all this stuff and you know, every account of them, at least the vast majority of them are like, they're bipedal hominid looking things.

[B]

What about if this is just the evolution. Evolution of the elf. You see what I'm saying? Or the gnome. What about if this is just the same like Carl Jung said? What about if this is just. We constantly imagine, okay, there's little people, there's this, there's. That our myths evolve. Like the, the Jung book about ufo, the Pasalka talks about this, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Evolution of a myth. Right. What about if aliens are just a new thing instead of gods and.

[A]

Well, they've been seeing this stuff for forever. They just describe it different. Yeah, exactly. Right, Totally. But here's like the case this anthropologist made to me on the show is he was like, he was explaining to me like the reason he became an anthropologist because he was so fascinated by these stories. And he's like, out of all the species that are cataloged on Earth, 20 of the like 2 million catalog species are hominids. Out of the 20 hominids, one of them has developed technology to get off the Earth. That's us. And we are.00001% of all species on Earth. So on Earth alone we are super rare. Yeah. As upright walking bipedal hominids who can manipulate our own environments. Now he's like, you extrapolate that out to all the other worlds out there that we know are in goldilock zones that can have life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even those planets have vastly different pressures, atmospheres. A lot of them are water worlds. The changes chances of bipedal hominid, upright walking with brains that sit directly on top of their eyes, like us evolving is like almost zero.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's like if these, if all these cases of these weird childlike things with big eyes or whatever. He's like, most likely it's from here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like either they're another version of us that maybe came from the future. Maybe they're time travelers. Who knows what they are? Or they live underground, I don't know. He says that they most likely that they're from here.

[B]

Now, are you totally down on the. I will say this. That Roland Griffiths recommended to me before he Died. He was very interested. He sent me this debate. I think I sent it to you to where it was this guy, Stephen Meyer, who's probably the most prestigious guy that the Intelligent design people have, and they're pushing him forward.

[A]

Are you.

[B]

What do you think about that? Is this. Is this a horrible idea?

[A]

What is it again?

[B]

Well, just Intelligent Design. What about if there's a creator, the religious idea that. That evolution is. And that really there's a creator behind, you know, the religious idea? You think? No, no way.

[A]

I don't know. You know, I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah, but this guy Stephen Meyer, what's his book? Could you look it up? His name's Stephen Meyer, Intelligent Design. But he's the most intelligent guy they've got putting forward. And I was surprised in talking to Roland Griffiths that he was saying. He seemed like he was leaning.

[A]

These are like, Andrew, anti evolution. Yes, okay.

[B]

Yes, he seemed like he was leaning towards. But because, I mean, it is hard to. Very much hard to comprehend. Now if you're an idiot, you don't think about that. You're just like, okay, whatever. I go to work, then I come home. But when you look at a acorn and a squirrel and a shark and all of us and the advanced conversations, everything you're talking about, you go, how in the. Could this have happened randomly? It seems. That's him. What's his book called? The God Hypothesis. No, he's got a new book. Roland suggested I read this.

[A]

And I'm not saying Intelligent Design, a pseudoscientific. What?

[B]

Oh, you know, Wikipedia.

[A]

Scientific creationist argument for the existence of God. Why is.

[B]

I forgot, you don't like religion.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're.

[A]

I don't have anything against religion. I'm not anti religion at all.

[B]

If you're working for Scientology. No, I'm.

[A]

Yeah, I'm more Scientologist, bro.

[B]

No, look up signature in the cell. See it right above there? Yeah. Click that. This might be his new book.

[A]

Anyway, his new book might be Darwin's Doubt. I love. I love. I know a lot of very nice Christian people. I have nothing against Christianity.

[B]

I don't mean to be. What I mean is this guy is putting forward. There it is. Return of the God Hypothesis. This is the one that Roland told me to read and he sent me a debate between Douglas Murray, Tom Holland and this guy Stephen Meyer. Now, I've never read the book, so I'm not telling you you should read this. And it's serious. All I'm saying is when you are scientifically thinking and you say this, there's really no. Roland told me before he died. He goes, on a fundamental level, Travis, I don't know what to think. This is a very, very serious scientist at Johns Hopkins, though not the country's. The world's premier medical science institution that is telling you. I actually don't know what to think. He goes, on a profound level. I don't know what's going on.

[A]

He's honest.

[B]

He's being totally honest. And he says we have to. This is the William James thing, to automatically dismiss outright anybody suggesting this. We're not going to consider them. That is the most anti scientific view ever. No, you have to be willing to entertain that they might be right. And I heard, I mean, I listened to the debate with these guys and I thought, he sounds intelligent. I don't know.

[A]

What is your take on it?

[B]

Well, what about if, I mean, I think that. What about if, you know, there was some creator that set things into motion? I don't fucking know. I have no idea. There's nobody, I don't take anybody serious who would dismiss it outright because. It's just. It is a profound, profound mystery. And again, you walk through the woods, you talk about that you were talking about earlier, this difference between the world of language. McKenna was real hung up on this. The world of language. I know everything about Vietnam. I know every. I know the history of the Amazon forest. And then you walk into it and you go, oh, I don't know anything. This is terrifying. This is crazy. What, What? What is. What, what. How did this all come about? How did it all come about? I don't know. And as much as I, I think what I'm. What I'm arguing for is what you said earlier, which is as much I. The more I read, the less I know. Yeah, I'm just like, I have no idea. And that's what Roland told me. This is somebody facing terminal colon cancer diagnosis. And I said, Roland, I'm 42. I'm really thinking like, what the. Is really going on. And we get disagreements about psychedelics and he's like, I've been, I've been a, you know, scientist my whole life. I don't know what the. And I'm like, damn, all right, all right.

[A]

You know, all I know is I think the more up we get, the closer we get to the truth.

[B]

Right? I think you're right. I think you're right.

[A]

I need more whiskey.

[B]

Yeah, give me some too. Hey. I think you're right. I think you're right. Well, and you know, this whole Psych.

[A]

I mean, how do you explain all the psychedelics? Like, how do you. Like, no one can explain what's happening. No, when you take dmt, like, like, how are you experiencing that? Mushrooms.

[B]

I don't think they're ever going to be able to explain it. I don't.

[A]

And that, I mean, it feels like, when you experience that, it feels like divine. It feels like God.

[B]

It does. And so, man, it's a real tough thing. I mean, it's a very tough thing because you go, yeah, is. Is your, you know, we're taught in our society that how you feel should not factor into things. Right. Unless you can prove it through experiment. Experiment. Experimental science has taken over everything. Unless you can repeat it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But that's, you know, this is William James whole thing.

[A]

William James and Epstein's whole thing.

[B]

He done. Dr. Conflated. Well, hey, let me say this. Here's. Here's maybe a better point. There's something that we can grasp. We may have. I think we should consider the possibility that we have conflated and confused the theory of evolution with technological innovation. What I'm saying is that, what about if we're looking at, oh, look, there's a new iPhone, version 8.0, and there's a new car. What about if this, this isn't a sign of progress, right? What about if this isn't? What about if we're actually. We're heading backwards in time? Because, no, there's nobody really asking the question. We have just. We've just come to accept that as long as there are new gadgets being created. What about if. What I'm saying is, what about if evolution? What about if Tom Wolfe is right? What about. What about if. What about if it's. We're not evolving? What about if it's not inevitable that we're heading? Which is really a Christian idea, right? Because the older idea would be that time is cyclical. That's the Elliot argument, okay? The Elliot argument, the Jung argument, is that time is cyclical and that we go through that right now, there's a time of chaos, then we'll go through peace. And the fourth turning thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

[B]

And that it'll just repeat itself over and over again. The thing, the thinking now is that this is what's happening. Look, there's a new iPhone, there's a new car, we're going to go to the moon, we're going to go to Mars, and then there's. But what comes at the end? What comes at the end? What is going to happen in Christianity, Jesus comes back to Earth. In the secular viewpoint of Epstein, what is going to happen?

[A]

What?

[B]

What? What's going to happen? If Jesus isn't going to come back to earth, then what is all of this building up to?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you see what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. I think Zeus is going to flood the Earth, bro. Be another goddamn flood.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

You know how. Yeah. We can't fit. We can't even fit the pyramids into a scientific box.

[B]

Exactly. What about. You know, this is where I have sympathy for the Graham Hancock and the perennialism and all of these people.

[A]

I just forgot you were a Graham Hancock hater.

[B]

I'm not a Graham. Graham Hancock hater. I'm not a Graham Hancock hitter. Look, everybody is. I'm not a polished person or a politician who's going to come in here. I'm moody like everyone else. And maybe my mood at the time is that. But. But no, I like Graham Hancock, actually. And Rick Strassman, who I trust, told me he's a wonderful person.

[A]

Yeah. So I know he seems like a nice guy.

[B]

Well, you met him, did you?

[A]

I never met Graham Hancock.

[B]

I thought you interviewed him.

[A]

No, never.

[B]

You've never interviewed Graham?

[A]

Never interviewed Graham Hancock?

[B]

I thought for sure you did.

[A]

I've had Flint Dibble on. Not. Not.

[B]

I know you had that. People hate Flint Dibble.

[A]

People love to hate Flint Dibble.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He makes himself easily Flint Dibble.

[B]

I hate that song.

[A]

Oh, that's mean. I don't hate him. I actually liked him. I actually enjoy talking to him. I understand where he's coming from.

[B]

No, you don't. You hate him.

[A]

I don't hate him.

[B]

No.

[A]

Just joking.

[B]

No, but people. Jesus Christ. The amount of hate for Flint Dibble.

[A]

There's a money.

[B]

But I can understand. I mean, he's a buzz. He's a. He's a. He's a. Yeah.

[A]

He tried to say that. That Graham was a Nazi because he believed that the pyramid.

[B]

Well, that's where he. Up big time. He shouldn't have done that. He shouldn't have done that. Well, yeah, I know.

[A]

Apparently Dibble's got a super hot wife. I swear to God, I heard this.

[B]

I don't believe that.

[A]

Find. Find it. See if you can find it.

[B]

Hey, you know MC. Get this McGovern in the immortality key. The. The. One of the main characters is Patrick McGovern, who was at University of Pennsylvania, who started that archi Otney. To where you take. Where's your little vessel at? To where you take The. To where you take the vessels. And he. McGovern actually came. His wife. Okay. Dibble has a hot wife. Damn it. Dibble's a smart son of a.

[A]

He's smarter. He's really hung one of the two.

[B]

Well, he's got a pretty big smile on his day. All right. I.

[A]

His wife's beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Now, that doesn't surprise me. He's a very smart person. His dad was a distinguished archaeology. He named. Named the kids Flint and Chip.

[A]

That's funny. That's why he. His dad was an archaeologist who worked

[B]

with Pat McGovern and. And Flint worked under McGovern, who just died.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Who was one of the main people in the immortality queue who then renounced the book.

[A]

Yeah. Dude, do you know these vessels were. Were debunked.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

So I had a guy on the show who.

[B]

Is this from ancient Egypt?

[A]

This was a. This is a 3D print of an ancient Egyptian. Egyptian vase vessel that. These are all granite, and they were measured in 3D. US light scanners.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were proved to be so goddamn symmetrical, it's impossible to make them with. With chisels and pounding stones. Like, they say that there's.

[B]

It's unexplained how it was made.

[A]

Well, the. The conventional consensus from Egyptologists is that

[B]

we drinking out of these.

[A]

Right. Put some blue lotus lily in there, and you get up, you know, but you don't want to go to meet Dionysus.

[B]

Are you gonna drink the. The. The. The recipe that hill. You know, the Hillman. We'll just call the. No, no, not the. The. Remember, the. The article that you pull up?

[A]

Oh, yeah, the University of Tampa. Vaginal fluid and blood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all kinds of best. The cup of best.

[B]

We only drink that straight from the tap.

[A]

Yes. I'm not drinking that secondhand. I promise you that.

[B]

It goes bad after about 12 hours.

[A]

Yes. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. I didn't want to think about that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

We're all so. Yeah, no, I had a guy in here who was like, a nuclear physicist, Right? Yeah. And he found out that, like, so. So the Egyptians, the conventional explanation is that they had pounding stones and copper chisels to make those in the dynastic Egyptian period. And they found these perfectly symmetrical granite things with these little handles that are built into them, Right. So people are like, how do they do that? They must have had some crazy advanced technology to make this stuff. Right. Because it's so perfect. Like it was making on a CNC machine. A guy came on and found out that all of the ones that are granite, that are perfect were modern. Yeah.

[B]

What do you think? Who do you think the ancient Egyptians were? I mean, do you think. Oh my God, you think they were super advanced?

[A]

I think there are probably ancient humans who are more advanced than us now.

[B]

Yeah, but more advanced. Advanced in what sense? Intelligent?

[A]

More advanced as far as like a technological. They. They weren't using combustion and electricity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were on another. They were on another trajectory than us.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They had a different understanding of the world and physics than we do. Yeah, yeah, I think that's possible. And then the younger drives happened 11, 500 years ago, wiped them out. Some of them may maybe escaped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some of them. Maybe there's a breakaway civilization and there's. They may be there. They aliens.

[B]

Yeah. Did you see? I hate to.

[A]

I had this guy Jeffrey Drum on bro, who lives in Egypt now, and he has this crazy hypothesis on how the. How all the pyramids were. What the whiskey's hitting right now, how all the pyramids were.

[B]

See, this is our invention from Kentucky. Yeah. We're like basically ancient Egypt of America.

[A]

Pretty damn close.

[B]

We got bluegrass whiskey, horse race casing in tobacco. Dude, tobacco will get you up.

[A]

I don't with tobacco too much.

[B]

Dude. If you eat tobacco when you work in tobacco. When I was in high school, I worked in tobacco.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cut tobacco, strip it, hang it. Yeah. Dry out. Yeah. It makes you sick. You get what's called tobacco poisoning.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, because you're getting it. You get it all over your hands and you're covered in it and then it seeps into your skin and it makes you. You. It makes you hallucinate, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Your skin's an organ.

[B]

The shaman. Yeah. The shot. Yeah. It's the biggest one organ in your whole body. The shamans in. In South America, the biggest drug is the ayahuasca thing is teeny, teeny, teeny tiny. The biggest drug is tobacco.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tobacco shamanism. It will get you up as lsd.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I'm not joking.

[A]

Tobacco it.

[B]

But you get sick. You get sick. It makes you sick as hell. And you can do it with those. I've done it with dip cigarettes that you can. But it's everywhere. I mean it used to be bigger in Kentucky when they started this anti smoking campaign and try to lie and say that it kills you. It killed a lot of the industry in western Kentucky. They don't do it. It's like alcohol now. Don't do it. It's horrible. Blah Blah, blah.

[A]

You can see how now we're sucking on car batteries. Vape.

[B]

Hey, remember.

[A]

Remember Bill.

[B]

Bill Hicks? He's like, look, at least we. Cigarettes and alcohol, we need know what they do.

[A]

He's like, right?

[B]

With these new. You don't know. He's like, it's going to be like. What was that, man? You're too young to remember, but there used to be this shop in the mall that sold, like, futuristic devices. And it was. Yeah, it was like an Apple store, but they sold like, air filters and all this.

[A]

The one that saw all the massage. Like the massage chair. Yes, yes, I know what you're talking about. Radio Shack. No, no, bro. It was called, like, something stone. Yeah.

[B]

God, it's right on the tip of my tongue. But this was the Bill Hicks joke. He's like, it's going to be like when I die. He's like, there's going to be all kinds. They don't. Who knows what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God damn it.

[A]

What were we talking about?

[B]

Did you like it? Do you like Bill Hicks?

[A]

I love Bill Hicks. He's one of my favorites.

[B]

Yeah, he's hilarious. You like George Carlin?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Remember we were talking about 911. Did you know he had a special that was going to come on 911? And. And it was called. I think this is the best. My favorite name for a comedy special ever. They ended up renaming it you were all Diseased. It's his last special. Really? The original name, and it was going to come out on 911, was called I Kind of like it when a Lot of people die.

[A]

Whoa, what year?

[B]

And there's a joke on it. There you go.

[A]

I kind of like it when a lot of people die.

[B]

And there's a joke on it about the planes exploding.

[A]

No, look.

[B]

On the nights of September 9th and 10th, I swear to God. And he makes a joke about a plane crash, about somebody farting in a plane and exploding.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yes. In the set. Osama bin Laden. Come think about that. You say Alex Jones is prophetic. Look at that.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's.

[B]

They shouldn't have changed it. They shouldn't have changed it.

[A]

They changed it.

[B]

They changed the name of the spirit special.

[A]

Yeah, but it's available. You can hear it.

[B]

Yeah, you can, but I think it's called you Were All Diseased.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm pretty sure that's true.

[A]

Talk about pushing the envelope, bro.

[B]

Oh, my God, he's incredible. I was going to go see him at. At in D.C. right before he died. And I was like, you know. No, okay. It was the last one. It wasn't. You were all disease. I kind of like it. So it was after that. So is it released you. All diseases. Hilarious.

[A]

Yeah, that's a different one.

[B]

Oh, this one's hilarious. Go down a little bit. What is the material parenting religion is just incredible.

[A]

That is wild. Anyways, what I was saying about the. The Egyptian bases with this. This guy has this theory that all the. All the pyramids were like chemical manufacturing plants trying to extract like the natural resources. Resources of the Earth for like agriculture and metallurgy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is like kind of a middle of the road, boring alternative theory. Like not tombs, but not like free energy alien power plants.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and his, his. He cited a study from NASA for like going to Mars or the moon. And what they said on the NASA website was, was like, before we colonize the moon or Mars, we need to figure out how to install factories on the moon or Mars to utilize the natural resources of that planet or celestial body. So we don't have to just ship everything out there. We can just create stuff there.

[B]

That's a great idea.

[A]

And he's like, dude, that's what the pyramids are. He's like, he, he has. He's reverse engineered them to show how they were developed to create sulfur and ammonia. And who was this guy named Jeffrey Drum.

[B]

Is he alive?

[A]

Oh, yeah, he's a young dude.

[B]

Call him up.

[A]

That's amazing. He was just on here. We just did like a 12 hour podcast.

[B]

Was it all about the pyramids?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's incredible. Have you seen Total Recall? Yeah. That's a killer movie. Yeah. Was that based on Philip K. Dick? That's based on Philip K. Dick.

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

That's incredible, dude. Arnold and his father prime was off the chain. Oh, yeah, he was incredible. You ever had Arnold on here?

[A]

No, I never had Arnold. I would love to have Arnold.

[B]

I've had a lot of big people.

[A]

I'm a huge Arnold fan.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I know. He's. Have you seen. Do you. Have you watched Conan the Barbarian recently?

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, you know, dude, it's incredible. Recently.

[A]

Yeah. Matter of fact, I watched it last week.

[B]

Hey, I watched. I watched it like a year ago. You know, one of the amazing things about it is it's all. It's all fake, but it's supposed to be pagan cults. And who's the black guy with the great. Not Lewis Gossett Jr. But the. He died like a year ago. He's in the movie. He's this. He's the lead of the snake cult. And the snake cult is like this Hillman thing. And so in. In Conan, this is who he's up against and he ends up killing him.

[A]

Is that Moo?

[B]

No. What the hell is his name? He's got glass glasses. He's like, you know, one of the most. He's incredible. He's legendary. He's black guy, he's got glasses. It's not Louis Gossett Jr. It's not Lawrence Fishburne. It's. I'll think of his name. But one of the cool things about it is you watch it and it's based in like, it's supposed to be. It's fake, you know, or whatever. It's not a historically accurate movie. But he's the head of like this snake cult. And so when you go in, there's like, it's like this pagan temple and he's got got on this snake. Where is that? There he is. James Earl Jones.

[A]

Oh, James Earl Jones. Yeah.

[B]

Dude, I'm not joking. Hey, in. In the beginning of the movie, the very first frame. Oh, and this is another thing I learned. I'm telling you, you got to rewatch it. You know who wrote the movie? Oliver Stone.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes. I swear to God, Oliver Stone is one of the writers in the movie. Look it up. Yes. Look it up.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Go to the top. Told you.

[A]

Right there.

[B]

Written by House Oliver Stone. And the first frame of the movie. I thought this was a garbage ass movie. The first frame of the movie is a quote manitra.

[A]

No way.

[B]

It's awesome. I.

[A]

Did you see Oliver Stone's interview with Putin? The Putin interviews?

[B]

Yes. I met Oliver Stone.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know who wasn't in the Epstein files?

[B]

Who? Oliver Show.

[A]

Vladimir Putin.

[B]

Oh, I know. I love how now they're like, Epstein was an agent of the Russians. Anytime there's anything that's definitively the United States and Israel, automatically it becomes Russia.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's so fake. Yeah. He's a Russian agent. Yeah. I met when. When. When Oliver Stone came out with Untold History of the United States.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I was going to University of Baltimore, which is like an inner city school, and I was taking a degree program and our teacher had. Was one of the writers on Unholy History of the United States, which was either Showtime or hbo. And so he said, oliver Stone's coming to the class next door. Because we're right by DC. We're 30 minutes from DC. This is when Obama was in office. Eric Holder was there. So Eric Holder's next door. Who was the Attorney General under Obama.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oliver Stone is in the class, and he led us all down to the Charles Theater in Baltimore to watch Untold History of the United States. So I'm at the bathroom in the Charles Theater. I'm taking a piss. They have this old timey troughs, and I'm wearing boots like I'm wearing now. And piss was. It's like a trough. And piss was splattering on my boot. And I moved my foot over and I looked over and it was all over Stone. Yes. I was like, damn. All over stones. Pissing on. All right, I don't mind. It's Oliver Stone.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then.

[A]

Great story.

[B]

And then he showed the untold history of the United States. And they had a panel of academics, and it was. It's real far. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's very.

[A]

I've seen it.

[B]

It's super left wing, anti American. I'm not saying it's not true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think probably a lot of it is true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's what it is. And there was a panel of academics, and you're in Baltimore, D.C. so Johns Hopkins is there. It's a serious academics. And they're. They got into the biggest argument and this guy stormed off stage. And it was incredible.

[A]

Really?

[B]

It was incredible. It was incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oliver Stone, he was one of the people that. One of the only people I've ever seen. I was like, damn, this is a superstar. Like, he just seemed cool as hell. I mean. Mean, his movies are. You know, I've always been surprised that, you know, Quentin Tarantino wrote. Have you seen Natural Born Killers?

[A]

A long time ago.

[B]

Well, you know, all of. Quentin Tarantino wrote it, but then Stone directed it, and Tarantino hated it.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. And Trent Reznor did the soundtrack.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. Tarantino wrote it, as, you know, it's the Woody Harrelson character based on Manson. And so some of the stuff is almost verbatim. Manson stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I gotta rewatch this.

[B]

And he was very mad about what it came out as. You know, Tarantino hated it, said, oh, he ruined the movie. But I think it's incredible. I love that movie.

[A]

What year did that come out? Natural born killers.

[B]

What? 94. Look at probably 94. But then Trent Reznor did the soundtrack, and you got Leonard Cohen, Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

D. Cowboy Junkies. That was. That was all that. What year is it? 94. Yeah. Man, that opening scene. Holy.

[A]

I never rewatched.

[B]

I think it's one of the great, great American films. Juliet Lewis. Yeah, I saw her at Ozfest once.

[A]

I couldn't stand it. After 20 minutes, I turned it off. Really?

[B]

You're kidding.

[A]

No, absolutely not.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I think it was so boring. What? To me, it was just so boring and it didn't make any sense and it was really pissing me off.

[B]

Okay. The Tarantino camp.

[A]

I guess so. I don't. I don't.

[B]

I don't ste. Okay, so on one side we got Steve and Tarantino. Who else is going to join? Son of a. Oh, yeah, Robert. Robert Downey Jr. He's the reporter. He's the har. He plays Geraldo.

[A]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[B]

I was there when this went down in Grenada. Yeah. What a. I think it's a great movie.

[A]

Well, Travis, we just did almost four hours, bro.

[B]

That's it. It. Yeah. Right on.

[A]

We got anything else we should light on fire before we end the podcast?

[B]

I don't know. I don't think so.

[A]

No, I don't think so. What's the future of. Of your reporting? What do you got? What do you got on the horizon? What are you looking into?

[B]

I got a piece coming out with the Wall Street Journal in April on the country singer Gary Stewart. He was born in eastern Kentucky. He died in Fort Pierce, Florida. He committed suicide in Fort Pierce, Florida, which is not far from here, a couple hours in the early 2000s. And there's a new book about him called Everybody Should Go Get It. It's called I Am the Honky Tonks and It's by Jimmy McDonough, who's one of the greatest music journalist reporters of our time. And so I'm writing about that for the Wall Street Journal. Wow. So that's the next thing I've got coming out. That's what I'm working on right now. The book's like 500 pages, but it's. It's. He's incredible. If you're into country music, check out Gary Stewart. He was a band leader of Charlie Pride, who was the first black superstar in country music. And it's an. It's a weird ass story. I'm telling you. This is not some boring. Like Blake Shelton. If you're thinking country music like that. This ain't what I'm talking about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is old timey honky Tonk, when the. The. The. The country singers were more like gangster rappers, really. Yeah. And the book is more like Hank 3 type. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yep, exactly.

[A]

None of that gay pop country.

[B]

Exactly. So that's what I'm working on is this review of I Am the Honky Tonk, So everybody should go out and buy it. It's. You can buy it online. It's incredible. It's published by Wolf and Salmon, which is an independent publisher out of California. Publishing industry, I don't think was like, chomping at the bit to publish about an obscure, easy Eastern Kentucky country singer who committed suicide in Fort Pierce. But that's what I'm working on. And then I've got a book that's coming out called the Immortality Con. How that. How Religious Fanatics Hijacked the Psychedelic Renaissance. Thank you to Rick Strassman for giving

[A]

me the title, the Immortality Con.

[B]

I've got a publisher. It's coming out. No, you don't. Yes. No, of course I do. I'm two years past my deadline, but I already got my. I already got my advance and. Yeah, of course I got a publisher and. Yeah.

[A]

Wait, are you being serious?

[B]

I'm dead serious.

[A]

You're coming out with a book called the Immortality Con?

[B]

The. It's called the Immortality Con. How Religious Fanatics Hijacked the Psychedelic Renaissance. And the title was given to me by Rick strassman.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's 80,000 words. And it's the real story of the Psychedelic renaissance of which nobody will come on the Danny Jones show and debate me on, because they all know that I'm telling the truth.

[A]

I need to know more.

[B]

Well, I mean, you.

[A]

Did you interview Marescu about this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

Well, I talked to Marescu before I published anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I, I, I talked to him about his book before I published anything, so I don't think he's a fan of my reporting.

[A]

So you, you interviewed all the people that were a part of his book? All the people that were sources and stuff?

[B]

All of them. I was there when the Psychedelic Renaissance started because I volunteered for a study at Johns Hopkins. And so it includes extensive interviews with every major player in the psychedelic renaissance. Rick Doblin, Roland Griffiths, Carl Rock. I told Stephen I spent a week at Carl's house last year.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Up in Boston. And Carl Ruck took me to Plymouth Rock. And if you go to the museum. We went to the museum. The museum for Plymouth Rock. And to have a mythographer on hand is very handy because.

[A]

A mythographer. You mean Carl?

[B]

Yeah, Carl. Yeah, he's a mythographer. You know, they used to Call it a mythographer. That's what they used to call some. Somebody who scientifically looked into myths, like ancient Greek myth, ancient texts. They used to call it a mythographer.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Before. A classicist. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I did not know that.

[B]

Yeah. They call it a mythographer.

[A]

What was he saying about Plymouth Rock? Satan put it there.

[B]

No, I would love to. I wish we could project some of. I've got all the pictures on my phone and videos and I would love. I wish we could put them up because I could show. I'm.

[A]

I can send them to Steve.

[B]

I have a video of me at Plymouth Rock with the original Plymouth Rock. And I was like, is this. There was somebody there at the museum. I was like, is this the original Plymouth Rock? And they were like, look, there's a crack down the middle. They were like, we hired these Irish people to move it. And they were drunk and dropped it.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So they dropped the Plymouth Rock and broke it. And there is. It's. It's broke into two pieces. And then we went to an Irish bar and got drunk and talked about Albert Hoffman, Gordon Watson and, you know, talking about. I'm always very curious. You know that's what this book is about, right? Yes, I've. I interviewed everybody, major figure and minor figure from the psychedelic renaissance. And that's what's going in here, and boiled it down into 80,000 words. I sent Steve the text. The. The. One of the big things from the. From the book, which is one of the big revelations, the problem that I had there.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

You got it. You want to show it and I'll explain this real quick. That's it? Yeah, that's it.

[A]

So get in the holy meeting with Pope Francis. You go. Go ahead, you read it.

[B]

Okay, so go to the top, Steve. Okay, I'm going to read. Do you see the initials up there? Everybody knows what a text chain is. That's Bob Jesse, the architect of the psychedelic renaissance.

[A]

Naughty Bob Jesse.

[B]

Naughty Bob Jesse. RG That's Roland Griffiths from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. That's Brian Morescu, author of the best selling Immortality Key. And that's Anthony Tony Bassus. Okay. Psychedelic scientist. And they threatened to sue me over this. And now I'm showing it. They threatened. They said I didn't have a legal right to show this, but I do. And given that the holy meeting with Pope Francis. Francis Rohr, that's Richard Rohr and our Jesuit brother Brian was themed around Thomas Merton from Kentucky, I'll close tonight with one of the greatest letters of the 20th century, when we wrote actual letters from Huxley to Merton on psychedelics. This is a famous letter which we could look up. It's worth reading. It's more like a sermon than a letter. The letter is as relevant today as in 1959, maybe more. What this is a. What this shows is that Johns Hopkins University was collaborating with Brian Murarescu and other psychedelic scientists, and they used human volunteers in order to prove. In order to fulfill a spiritual mission, which was that they believe very deeply that psychedelic experiences are the common core of. Of all religions. And they drafted people into Johns Hopkins University under false pretenses and used these human volunteers and they got into deep over it. And this has never been published ever. Ever. I almost published it in Reason magazine and they wanted to publish it, but I wouldn't let them.

[A]

Why wasn't it published?

[B]

Well, I. Last time I came on your show, I was promoting two articles I wrote for Reason magazine. One called the Strange Case of the Immortality Key. One called the most controversial paper in the history of Psychedelic research may never see the light of day. And I was. I was. These were leaks by someone within the organization. And they told me, don't print this. And then later I sent it to Bob, Jesse and Anthony Bosses, and I asked them if they. I said, why, if this is a scientific study, why were you collaborating? Why were you setting up a meeting with the Pope? This is Pope Francis. This actually happened. I.

[A]

The guys who did the.

[B]

The.

[A]

The Johns Hopkins study had a meeting with Pope Francis.

[B]

No, the. Murarescu, who was part of their group, they sent him as an ambassador. Oh, I showed. I have the picture in my.

[A]

I remember you showed.

[B]

You've seen the picture?

[A]

I've seen it, yeah.

[B]

So what they were trying to do, if this isn't clear, is they wanted Pope Francis and tried to convince Pope Francis that in the Eucharist for all Catholic churches around the world, that they should use a psychedelic drug.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's what it was.

[A]

That's what they were trying to tell him, convince him.

[B]

Yeah, it didn't work. I mean, he died, but. Right, right, right, right. But that was the point. Yeah. And so what you're seeing for what.

[A]

To what ends?

[B]

Because they are under the belief that. That we were. Which is when you take psychedelics and you go, if only everybody else could do this. So if you believe two things. One, the origin of the Catholic Church and the origin of Christianity is in psychedelic drugs. Number two, if only everybody did this, it would heal them and things would Become clear to them like it was to you, you, you, you, you, you, me, everybody that's done this. And so they thought if we could, we need to find a way to spread the use of psychedelics and they can came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church would be a useful tool in order to spread the use of this drug. Now, when I said this on your first podcast, people complain and go, oh, they're trying to save the world. And you're like, actually, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, of course. So it's like, look, if you don't know, if you don't know that utopian projects end in oceans of blood, you're staggeringly ignorant of the past 100 hundred years of history. The Soviet Union was a utopian project that humans could engineer their own future. I should say this. It's very important for Americans to know who are seriously uneducated. Look at the history of the Russian Revolution and the history of the Bolsheviks. These are people that wanted to get rid of religion and believe that human beings could engineer their own future into a utopia. It ended in ocean, oceans of blood. The Nazi experiment was something similar. Don't fall into the trap that Elon Musk and other people are trying to bring us into that human beings are so smart, accept limits and acknowledge limits to human intelligence and say the best thing we can do is be extremely cautious. The mystery surrounding our lives is probably not reducible by very much. And so the, the question of how to act in ignorance is paramount. Does that make sense? The question of how to act in ignorance? If you acknowledge limits to human intelligence and you say, look, we ought to be real careful, it's the same intelligence that tells you this, hey, we're going to go down into Venezuela. Do you know what, what, what they got going on down there? Not really, but we're going to, we're going to storm, we're going to do our thing. If you don't know much about what, what you don't know, you ought to be real careful because you might get your ass smoked. And you have to be extremely careful. The mystery surrounding our lives is probably not reducible by very much. And so the question of how to act in ignorance, the question of how to act in ignorance is paramount. Does that make sense, Danny?

[A]

Yes, I think it does.

[B]

It's the message of psychedelics. This is what I will advance at risk of embarrassing myself. This is, this is what I believe is the message of psychedelics. We don't know very much about what's going on. Right. We don't really know that much. We don't know this mystery that we're surrounded by. We don't really know what's going on. And so we ought to be very careful. What we shouldn't do is act in extremely arrogant and strident ways. What we should do is go, you know, yeah, there's a piece of cheese sitting over there in the middle of that trap. But, but I ain't going to be. You know what they used to say when I was little? When in doubt, send a scout. Right. I ain't going to be the scout. And I don't think, I don't think we should be. I don't. I think we should be extremely careful about what we're doing. And I think when you try to overcome limits, what could be hard limits of humanity, we might be at a place to where technology can't get us out of the trouble that we're in. And so we may want to have a little humility. Just a suggestion. Just a suggestion. Maybe we should try something different than we've tried in the past. Yeah, maybe we should try being sober. This is ironic.

[A]

Very ironic.

[B]

But, but have a little bit of humility and say, you know, what we've been trying hasn't worked. So we might want to back off this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You see? Right. But what the tendency of our time. Time is is creative destruction. It. Let's just unleash it and just see what happens. You see?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Social engineering projects work like this. You traffic the idea through the media and academic institutions who are dumb as hell and then you have it rubber stamped by psychiatry. That's what happened with psychedelics. And this is what's happened with. I'm very hesitant to even mention it. Gender medicine, what they call gender medicine. There's no scientific proof.

[A]

Hormone therapy.

[B]

Yes. There's no scientific proof that it helps anyone. In fact, most of it's contrary. Most of it says that it's damaging and risky. But we just keep going anyway.

[A]

Yeah, we.

[B]

I. My suggestion is that we shouldn't do that anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe we should say of people would agree with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Anyway, whatever. We're all.

[A]

I think you're on to something, bro.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're definitely on to something. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, hey. I am from the honky tonks. Thank you, Steve. Hey, pull that up. If you don't mind. Then I'll shut up. Would you show the Amazon page for I am from the honk.

[A]

Gary Stewart.

[B]

Gary. Mother.

[A]

I am from the honky Tonk.

[B]

Dude, look at that. Picture.

[A]

Look at those pants, bro.

[B]

This is one of the best in on this guy. Zoom in on him. What is he got, an orange peeling?

[A]

A Mandarin?

[B]

Hey. Hey. This is the baddest country singer perhaps that America has ever produced. If we have redemption, if there is redeeming of this country and redemption, I mean, from the ignorance and the vacuousness are we. America has created the most rich and beautiful culture that's ever been. Been created because there's never been a multicultural society like. Well, there has. I mean, ancient Greece, da da da da. But there's never been anything created like American country music, right? Gary Stewart, Jerry Lee Lewis.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Johnny Cash. I mean, do you know the amount of influences that come together in order to create something like that? I mean, you listen to American country music and you go, holy. There's gospel music, there's blues, there's Scots, Irish, fiddle music. There's so many different influences that come together in something that's seemingly singular that you just go, wow. So there's a lot. I guess my point is this. There's a lot to be proud of in this country. There's a lot of beautiful things and we shouldn't just throw it all away for convenience.

[A]

Yeah. Well said, man. That's a great way to wrap this up.

[B]

Thank you, sir.

[A]

All right, everybody, you know where to find him. We'll link. We'll link his stuff below.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[A]

Good night, world.

[B]

My dad taught me a lot, including how easy it is to forget to cancel things.

[A]

So I downloaded Experian, my bff.

[B]

Big financial friend. Experian could help me cancel my unused

[A]

subscriptions and lower my bills, saving me hundreds a year. Get started with the Experian app today. Your big financial friend here to help you save smarter. Results will vary. Not all bills or subscriptions eligible.

[B]

Savings not guaranteed.

[A]

$631 a year average savings with one plus negotiations and one plus cancellations paid. Membership with connected payment account required.

[B]

See experian.com for details. Experian.