#384 - “FBI Still Hiding Epstein Worst Secret” Death Magic, Blackmail & Deep Politics | Kris Millegan

Summary

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Danny Jones Podcast #384

Most Powerful Secret Society & The Blackmail Playbook Running America | Guest: Kris Millegan
Date: April 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

Danny Jones hosts author, publisher, and secret society researcher Kris Millegan for a wide-ranging conversation about covert power structures, the real history of secret societies like Skull and Bones, the intersection of intelligence agencies and organized crime, blackmail networks—past and present—and how these forces shape American and global events. Millegan draws from personal experience (including his father’s OSS/CIA career) and decades of research to dissect how secrecy, blackmail, psychology, mind control, and cultural manipulation have been systematically deployed by these organizations. The Epstein scandal, the evolution of elite blackmail tactics, and the tenuous future of democracy all feature prominently in this candid and often provocative discussion.

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Kris Millegan: Origin Story

• Kris’s Motivations

  • Kris’s work was inspired by revelations from his father, who, after a long clandestine career, revealed the hidden agendas behind major 20th-century events.
  • [00:13] “That’s how come I’m doing this. This is how come I’m here.” (Kris)

• Father’s Intelligence Career

  • His father worked in military and civilian intelligence from OSS days through the CIA, including research assignments and direct involvement in WWII, the Philippines, and postwar Asia.
  • [02:18] “They told me all about his intelligence career ... he started as an 18 year old kid ... been all over.” (Kris)

• The Big Talk: Secret Societies & Vietnam

  • [00:58] “The Vietnam War is about drugs. There’s these secret societies behind it ... Communism’s all a sham. These same secret societies are behind it. It’s all a big game.” (Kris’s father, relayed by Kris)
  • At 19, Kris was introduced to the idea of wars being manufactured for drug profits and global manipulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Nature and History of Secret Societies

• Defining Secret Societies

  • [21:51] “A secret society is basically a group of people that are working in secrecy to accomplish a goal ... using secrecy to lie, cheat and steal.” (Kris)
  • Not all secret societies are nefarious, but the powerful ones historically act in their own interest against the public.

• The American Secret Society Ecosystem

  • Freemasons, Illuminati, mafia, Shabbat/Chabad, Phi Beta Kappa, Skull and Bones.
  • Skull and Bones (Yale) as an American extension of the Thule Society and German freemasonry.
  • [26:17] “Their goal is to control things ... control our future and control our kids' future.” (Kris)

• Role in U.S. History

  • Skull and Bones instrumental in shaping American education and government via the Prussian education model.
  • Deep links between early U.S. elites, drug trade profits (opium), and political power.
  • Opium, prohibition, and the creation of black market profits directly empowering shadow networks.

The Blackmail Playbook

• Initiations and Control by Compromise

  • [29:57] “There’s some secret societies where you have to give them blackmail material before you join.” (Kris)
  • Trouping out tales of sexual misadventures—ostensibly to ensure loyalty and control—are part of initiation.

• Blackmail as Political and Social Leverage

  • The blackmail system is presented as a continuous structure running from the early 20th century, operationalized on a mass scale with the digital era.
  • [143:37] “It’s called One Nation Under Blackmail.” (Kris, referencing Whitney Webb’s work)

The Leviathan Model of Power

• Kris's Power Structure Analysis
  • [33:49] “It’s a leviathan of three levels, and each level has three parts.”
    • Top Level: Mining, Metal, Money. Control of basic resources and the financial infrastructure.
    • Middle Level: Drugs, Guns, Oil. The “active” commodities for cashflow, corruption, and control.
    • Bottom Level: Media, Music/Movies, “Magic” (propaganda, psychological operations, trauma rituals).
  • These interconnected systems generate wealth, cultural dominance, and narrative control.

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Psychological Warfare and Mind Control

• Mass Trauma Rituals

  • Major public events (JFK, 9/11) conceptualized as “mass trauma rituals” designed to shock, confuse, and control populations.
  • [47:18] “At its core, the JFK assassination is a mass trauma ritual ... 9/11 also ... These guys perform what is known as death magic ... by killing people you get power.” (Kris)

• Operation Bluebird, MKUltra, & Ritual Abuse

  • Mind control tools: trance, roleplaying, trauma, ritual.
  • They move programs around to avoid scrutiny—via schools, football programs (Yale, Michigan, Quantico), etc.
  • [81:55] “Let’s talk about mind control ... mind control, you’ve got a couple of factors. First one is trance ... then you have role playing ... trauma and ritual ... these are the basic things of mind control.” (Kris)
  • Alleged historical mind control programs targeting children to build future operatives/“alters.”

• Macro-Societal Manipulation

  • Use of media, education (Prussian model), television (hypnotic effects), and drugs (heroin, LSD, etc.) to shape and weaken generational coherence and social resistance.
  • [55:23] “They needed ... the modern education system ... television that runs at 60 cycles ... a nascent drug culture ... by 1950.” (Kris)

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Blackmail, Politics, and Elite Networks

• Watergate, Nixon, Dulles, and Blackmail

  • [72:14] “How did Nixon get his job? He blackmailed the Dulles brothers.” (Kris)
  • The theme of political advancement via kompromat recurs: “James Jesus Angleton ... got his job by blackmailing the Dulles brothers.” (Kris, [78:52])

• Epstein—as Modern Continuity

  • Epstein is discussed as a creation and tool of elite networks, first as a social connector and then as blackmail operator on behalf of undisclosed interests.
  • [46:26] “Why would they invite [Epstein] at such a young age to be on the Trilateral Commission? ... Because he had contacts. He had something that they wanted.” (Kris)
  • The exploitation of children, scientific experimentation, and digital blackmail all evolve from earlier mechanisms.
  • The files and communications—like with Peggy Siegal—show coordination with Hollywood, finance, and science elites. ([117:32]–[119:39])

• Secret Societies vs. Nation States

  • [149:11] “We have this secret societal system that’s up here. Next solid level is sovereign countries. And in between the secret societal level ... you’ve got intelligence agencies, religious organizations, fraternal organizations, criminal organizations..." (Kris)
  • Through them, a powerful few steer global events, transcending national boundaries.

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Modern Challenges & The Future

• Dissent, Psyops, and Disinformation

  • Conspiracy and counter-conspiracy are tools to “control the extremes,” muddy the waters, and regulate the narrative.
  • [51:11] “Now it's impossible to ignore, even though there's people that go to the end of the earth to try to ignore it still ... it's not about money. It's about control.” (Kris)

• Hope for the Future & Restoring Democracy

  • Computers, the Internet, and independent publishing are likened to new tools for breaking secrecy.
  • [158:01] “There’s no reason why we, the people cannot be in charge ... We, we, we have to.” (Kris)
  • Millegan advocates for mass awareness, voting, and continuous open dialogue to reclaim institutions—though acknowledges the scale and complexity of the problem.

• On Cynicism and Giving Up

  • [112:22] “...Again, what are you, what are you going to do? You just gonna give up and get grifted? Have your country get grifted away?” (Kris)

• On Government Structure and Reform

  • [147:03] “Pick the jobs by lottery ... like the ancient Greeks did ... We’re doing this book called the Psychopathology of Totalitarianism ... it’s a sickness these people bring to want to have absolute control.” (Kris)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Control, Generations, and the Dialectic

  • [52:15] “By controlling the extremes, you control the middle.” (Kris)
  • [52:59] “We have as, oh, all of us together have fail safe devices. So we as a humanity just don’t go all jumping off the cliff...” (Kris)

• On the Epstein Revelations

  • [32:49] “With all this Epstein stuff ... we’re moving all the grease from the glass and the glass is becoming more transparent ... now we can kind of see the shapes and ... all this stuff moves in this other dimension ... maybe this is the way the world works.” (Danny)
  • [65:16] “It seems like with this Epstein stuff ... the media establishment is doing their best to use the most bipartisan story of my lifetime to divide or distract from it and even just push it aside.” (Danny)

• On 9/11 as Mass Trauma

  • [99:03] “It was a mass trauma hit against the American people ... the secret societal part of the American government was complicit in it.” (Kris)

• On Hope and Agency

  • [160:57] “Well, thank you ... I truly think that our country is worth spending time and energy to restore ... there’s no reason why we can’t take them back.” (Kris, on whether reform is possible)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:13–02:20: Kris explains his father’s background and the family’s first revelations about secret societies.
• 19:47–26:38: Skull & Bones origin, philosophy, and real influence.
• 29:57–30:23: Secret society initiation and the requirement to provide blackmail material.
• 33:49–38:42: The “leviathan” model—how power is structured in layers.
• 47:18–55:10: Mass psychological operations, rituals, and the real purpose of assassinations/9/11.
• 81:55–88:04: Mind control, MKUltra, and the manipulation of individuals and society.
• 99:03: Kris’s perspective on 9/11 and state complicity.
• 113:30–116:05: Epstein’s South African victims, eugenics, baby farming, and the emerging science angle.
• 149:11–154:27: How secret societal networks operate above nation-states, using criminal and intelligence intermediaries.

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Additional References and Books Mentioned

• America’s Secret Establishment by Antony Sutton (The Skull & Bones classic)
• Gold Warriors by Sterling Seagrave (CIA/Philippines WWII)
• One Nation Under Blackmail by Whitney Webb (Blackmail networks, Epstein)
• Franklin Scandal by Nick Bryant (Elite child abuse)
• Generations and The Fourth Turning by Strauss & Howe (Generational cycles)
• Most Dangerous Book in the World (Occult numerology and 9/11)
• The Nebula (Belgian state police report on secret orders)
• Psychopathology of Totalitarianism (Upcoming book)

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Final Takeaways

Kris Millegan’s research and testimony tie together suppressed history and present-day scandals, emphasizing that secrecy, blackmail, and psychological manipulation are ingrained, systemic, and international. Yet, he maintains hope in information, mass awakening, and democratic action. For those wondering how the world really works, this episode is a masterclass mix of conspiracy history, personal anecdote, and cultural criticism—delivered in a candid, at times hippie-inflected tone, and ultimately calling listeners to reclaim agency and seek the truth.

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For Kris Millegan’s books and more: trineday.com

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

The basic story is. Is. Is. Is my dad. I mean, that's how come I'm doing this. This is how come I'm here.

[B]

Oh, really? Because of your dad?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. He inspired all this stuff?

[A]

Well, he. He was a spook. And, you know, most of the time I was just a little kid, you know, and dad one time came to me and said, what do you think of the Vietnam War? This was like, in the. Oh, about 65, something like that. And I gave him a flip little teenage answer. I says, you got a sack of hand grenades and some rice patties, and you go throw the hand grenades to win it for the good guys wearing the white hats. I mean, I'd been raised on John Wayne in World War II. All my uncles, and my dad was in World War II. So he. He said, we have to have a talk. And I said, okay, and just went on with my life. And then about the. The day before my 20th birthday, we came to the house. I figured, you know, we were going to have a, you know, some cake and ice cream and stuff like that. And I get there, and my dad says, it's time to have that talk. And I kind of remembered what he was saying. And then he had a friend of his from Vanderbilt there, Dr. D.F. fleming. And they took me into my little brother's room and sat me down. And dad looked at me and said, the Vietnam War is about drugs. There's these secret societies behind it. And I'm thinking, okay, Dad's talking about the Mafia. This was like 1969. And. And then he said, and communism's all a sham. These same secret societies are behind it. It's all a big game. And at that point in time, I thought my daddy was nuts, okay? Because, you know, I'd been stuffed under the desk because the Ruskis were going to bomb us. And so it just, you know, it didn't compute. And so. And then they started talking. They started telling me all about my dad's intelligence career.

[B]

Who's that? Who started telling you?

[A]

My dad and this professor from Vanderbilt and. Which had never really mentioned in the house before. I mean, the only time I remember, I was, like, 8 years old, and we were living in Nashville, and my older brother and older sister, we were standing up talking outside the living room in this hallway. And my older brother says, I think dad works for the CIA. And, you know, I was eight years old. I was into baseball. You know, didn't. Didn't really mean much to that. He said, that's how come we went Overseas. And I, huh, You know, and so this was the first time that. Because it had never been mentioned in the house. Okay. And so they tell me all about his intelligence career, which he had started as an 18 year old kid. He'd been an exchange student to China in 1936. Okay. And at that point in time, it was the State Department just told him casually to, you know, keep your eyes and ears open, especially about what the Japanese are doing. And then he left Shanghai a week before The Japanese bombed it, 1937, and went up to Vladivostok and went across the Trans Siberian Railway to Vienna and went to Switzerland and ended up in Berlin and then to London, where he was at the World Council of Churches with the Dulles brothers. And they had a big conference there. And then dad came back to school and he graduated in 1939 and he was accepted at a school in Switzerland for international relations. But there was something going on in 39 in Europe and there was a war going on. And so he didn't get there. He got as far as the basement of the Library of Congress under Archibald McLeish, and they gave him a desk and they said, we want you to become an expert on the Philippines. And so dad started, you know, studying the Philippines. He used to tell a story about how the dad, the guy right next to him, and he helped him with starting what is now known as the CI World Factbook. And they started on 8 by 5 and the bigger cards creating this, you know, list of facts about all the countries in the world. And then Donovan walked in and he started an organization called Coordination of Information coi. And then COI morphed into the oss. And dad was there working for the oss. And then he got drafted and OSS said, great, you're going to, you're still going to be working for us, but we're going to put you into military intelligence G2, and we're going to put you on MacArthur staff. And we want you to report back because we don't trust MacArthur and Willoughby. And then dad was put on as a personal and private secretary to a Dr. Hayden. And then Dr. Hayden came to the United States and to talk to fdr, and he died here. And then they took my dad out of theater to go get those, the papers that he had to curry him back to the Philippines. And then dad started working with the guerrillas a whole bunch. And because, you know, the Japanese had taken over the Philippines and he, he landed on Leyte and then, like I said, started working with the guerrillas and he Went into Manila way before the government troops with these guerrillas and was helping them set up their diplomatic mission and their government and they put the collaborators in jail. And MacArthur had been raised in the Philippines. And so when he finally gets to Manila, a bunch of his childhood friends are in jail and they wanted to find out who did that. And my dad was the highest guy responsible. And so MacArthur said, get rid of Milligan. And they moved my dad to be head of research and analysis for the invasion of Japan. And. And they brought a gentleman in by the name of Ed Lansdale, who had also been in G2 and OSS at the same time, to take my dad's place. And I don't know if you know much about conspiracy literature, but Lansdale is. Figures quite prominently in it. There's a very good book called Gold warriors by Sterling Seagrave that. I mean Sterling Ste Grave was the son of the Burma surgeon. He was raised in Southeast Asia. All of his books were Book of the Month club and New York Times bestsellers until he wrote Gold warriors and he had to publish it himself. And he got so many death threats that he moved to the south of France. And it's an amazing book. And then dad told me he went through a couple of alphas and then ended up in the CIA as branch chief head of all of East Asia now analysis office. And he was there for several years. And then 1951, they wanted somebody to talk to Sukarno in Indonesia. And my dad wasn't your typical Ivy League CIA guy. He'd been born in Montana and raised in the northwest.

[B]

So what's that mean? Is he knuckle dragger?

[A]

No, no, it just means that he wasn't, oh, I don't know, slick or something like that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He wasn't, he wasn't eastern establishment. He was just a. Just a kid.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Okay. And so I went with him as a little kid, one and a half years old. I learned Dutch and melee before I learned English.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And you know, and I was a CIA front as a. As a little kid. And then we were there for a couple of years and dad got ill and we went back to Fairfax, outside D.C. i was born in D.C. and dad just did strange odd jobs. He had a research little place that he did research in and had a TV show at one time, just did different things. And then 1956 we were. He told us, he said he was going to write a book about the church in Southeast Asia. And we got taken off to our grandparents house in Oregon and, and mom and dad Went off to the Far East. And then things really changed. We'd been living on this 10 acre farm outside Fairfax on this, along this gravel road that's now a four lane highway. And all of a sudden the farm was put up for sale. We were going to be moving to Rochester. That didn't happen. We moved to another little house in Fairfax. And then all of a sudden dad was made vice president of a college in Nashville. And you know, again, I'm just a little kid, you know, I'm just following the family. And then we were in Nashville for like two years and in the middle of the school year, the president of the college quit. They asked my dad to be president. He said no. Sold the house for $15 over its contract and moved the whole family out to Oregon. And this was in 1959. And this thing in 1969 when they were telling me all about my dad's intelligence career, he said that the thing that he, paper he had signed said he couldn't talk for 10 years. And so that's why he was talking to me then in 1960, because he said he left him, he left the agency soft in 57 and hard in 59. Okay. And then he, they saw.

[B]

Can you explain what that means? Soft and hard? What's the difference between soft and hard leaving Agency?

[A]

Well, soft was, okay, I'm leaving you guys, but I'm still going to work with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At the, as a vice president of this college, he was in charge with a bunch of international students and stuff like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then they were, you know, asking him to do something that he just wouldn't, he wouldn't do. I mean he, he, when he first left him in, in 56, it was because of the drug running. He would not, he was in a position where he had knowledge about it and he would not go along with it. And they offered him a life changing bribe. They offered him parts of Seven Corners and Tyson's quarters up in, up around the D.C. area.

[B]

So he wasn't the typical CIA pure sociopath that they like to have. This was early days.

[A]

Yeah, he, he, he didn't take the money, I'll put it that way. He, he could have taken the money and just turned a blind eye, but as most do. Yeah, it wasn't my dad. So I was, I was very proud when.

[B]

That's good. So when you say he left hard in 69.

[A]

59.

[B]

Oh, 59. How do you go? I didn't know anyone actually left quote unquote hard from the CIA. I thought Once you're in, you're always in.

[A]

Well, no, I mean, unless you go

[B]

to jail for like blowing the whistle.

[A]

It's, it's a bureaucracy like any, any, any bureaucracy. And no, he, he, he didn't have anything to do with him after that. I mean, I, I, I saw some of his employment records. I mean, he did a, a big thing because he used to, they get these little blue forms every six months and he had duplicates on them. And one of them he was a GS number, and the other one he was a higher GS number and he had to go through all that to get his Social Security and stuff like that. But no, he, he, he didn't have anything, he didn't want to have anything to do with him. Yeah, he, he made a statement that was in the newspaper a little bit before he died that said, because he, his last job was, he was a church administrator. He said working for the church is much more nicer than working for the CIA. When you're working for the CIA, the ends justify the means. And that just wasn't, wasn't my dad

[B]

CIA ran churches, didn't they?

[A]

Well, I, that, I don't know. I know that they have used religious organizations.

[B]

Yeah, they sure have. Did your dad ever tell you who really ran the world?

[A]

Well, you know, he said this thing about secret societies after, after the thing about, you know, tell me about the Vietnam War, about drugs. The next thing out of his mouth was, and communism's all a sham. These same secret societies are behind it. It's all a big game.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Okay. So he, you know, and, and how

[B]

old were you when he told you this?

[A]

19.

[B]

You're 19.

[A]

Okay, I'm 19. I'm married. Got a six month old kid. Okay. Started record.

[B]

Started early.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Started a record store and was putting on rock and roll dances, you know, so I was having a good time. So I, I really didn't, you know, I mean, this, and after they told me all about my dad's intelligence career, the next thing they started talking to me about.

[B]

You were in. And when you were doing the rock and roll stuff with the rock and roll band, that was what, what decade, roughly?

[A]

Oh, in the 60s and 7. I mean, I played music up until about a couple years ago. Okay. I played, played a lot of music, but.

[B]

You ever make your way to the Haight Ashbury Clinic?

[A]

Never been to the clinic there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, no, I was at Monterey though.

[B]

Oh, were you really?

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So run shoulders with any, any cult leaders down there in California?

[A]

Well, I, I, I knew Keezy pretty well.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. I live in Springfield, Oregon. He lived in Pleasant Hill, Oregon. It's real close, close by. And, you know, he was an interesting guy. I mean, I, I put on Grateful Dead dances in the, in the, you know, I think first one was 67. 68. No, 68. And, and whatnot. And, no, I mean, I, I'm a hippie. I mean, I have no, no if and buts about that.

[B]

You run into Charles Manson?

[A]

No, never ran in Charles Manson and, and, and whatnot. But I, you know, I, I went back after my dad talked about, you know, had this talk with me, and, you know, most of it just, it was overload. I mean, my dad, they, after, they told me about the, they were playing out a lose scenario in Vietnam, which didn't compute with me at all, okay? Because at the same time they were trying to take me over there to shoot people, you know, but I had to kill him with rules. And so it just didn't make any sense. And so, and then I, my dad, all in, in the middle of a sentence, just stopped talking because he could see that he was talking, he, he was saying about propaganda and, and, and psychological warfare. And then he started talking about sway pieces, and I just, he could see that I had no idea.

[B]

Sway pieces?

[A]

Sway pieces, yeah.

[B]

Talking about, like, news propaganda.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and that I had no idea what they were talking about. So, so, you know, I just, you know, went on home and next time I saw him, the only question I really had, because one of the things he told me was that for oss, one of the things that they had to do was to get nine copies of everything that was printed. Okay? And like, to me, that seemed like a daunting task. And so the next time I saw him, I said, gee, dad, how did you do that? And he said, well, the biggest thing, and you know, to print something, you had to have a big building and a big machine and a lot of supplies and a bunch of people. He said he would just compromise some people and get, get his, his copies, okay? And so, because it just didn't make any sense to me at all. And, and so I was reading a girly magazine, I believe it was gallery, and reading a story about the JFK assassination. And there was, you know, in there they were saying, well, people talk about, you know, the involvement of the Mafia and the involvement of the CIA, and some people talk about secret societies. And that brought back this whole conversation that I'd had with my dad and I started thinking, well, gee, what was dad telling me there? You know? And so I started to do research. And the way I do research is to read books. And so I started, you know, first thing I really started to dig into was intelligence. How does intelligence work? What do intelligence officers do? And blah, blah, blah, what's the protocol? And all that type of stuff. And also about the drug trade. And the hardest things for me to find was information about secret societies. And then finally, you know, and during all this time, I mean, I, I had a record store, I was doing band. I, you know, I, I was a busy guy and, you know, had kids and stuff like that. And so finally, in 1988, I run across Anthony Sutton's book, America's Secret Establishment, An Introduction to the Order of Skull and Bones. And I read that book and, and in there, you know, he talks about Skull and Bones, you know, being involved with the Russian revolution and all of that type of stuff. And so I said, I read that and I said, well, gee, maybe my daddy's not nuts after all.

[B]

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[A]

Skull and Bones is a secret society that was started in 1832. It's a outgrowth of a German secret society, and it basically came about because of Phi Beta Kappa. Well, you see, in the United States, we had our first anti Illuminati scare, okay. In the 1790s. Okay. And George, you know, there's a famous letter to George Washington where he writes back and says, yeah, their tenants are here and whatnot. And then we had a big anti Masonic scare. Okay. So much so that in the 1820s, we had an anti Masonic party. It was the first political party to have a national convention. And then they elected some people to congress and, And. And different things. And then.

[B]

What do you mean when you say anti Masonic scare? I don't understand what that means.

[A]

Well, there was a lot of that. That the. The Masons were, quote, unquote, evil, bad. You know, something. You know, I mean, it was just.

[B]

I see what you're saying.

[A]

You know, it was. It was a thing that happened here, and there was, you know, speeches and different things. So we had an anti.

[B]

So like. Like a. Like a satanic panic, but for the Masons, kind of like that. Yeah, okay.

[A]

Yeah. You know, you could say that. And then. So it became very not nice. Okay. To be a member of a secret society. Okay.

[B]

And I feel like secret societies is a very loaded term.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

When you say the word secret societies, people. I feel like most people automatically think of like some crazy fringe thing on, like the edge of reality. Might be true, might be witchcraft, might be, you know, science fiction, who knows? But like. But, but like, if you could distill what. What you mean by a secret society into basic terms. What. What actually is it?

[A]

Well, a secret society is basically a group of people that are working in secrecy to accomplish a goal. Okay. And basically I see them, you know, these secret societies.

[B]

So.

[A]

So using secrecy to lie, cheat and steal.

[B]

So by that term, could like Scientology be a secret society?

[A]

Oh, kind of, I guess. You know, I mean, is there a membership list of secret of Scientology? Okay, well then, you know, then you know who the members are. I mean. Yeah.

[B]

Or like. Or like. Yeah, I don't know. Any sort of secret club could be a secret. It doesn't have to be like some nefarious thing where they suck the blood of children, right?

[A]

No, it doesn't have to be. I mean, secret societies have developed, you know, through time for different reasons. Okay. I mean, at one point in time, you had the Catholic Church as the main power, Right. And if you didn't do what they did, you could get yourself in trouble. Okay, so some people banded together in secret societies to deal with the Catholic Church. And I mean, that's one thing I find is that, you know, there's different secret societies that have developed over time. And, and at one point in, you know, they, they, they, they become aware of each other and they might even have been fighting each other. But then they say, wait a minute. Why are we fighting each other when our common enemy is the people?

[B]

Okay, so how many secret societies do we have? Basically, we got the Freemasons, we got the Illuminati. Can you, can you, like, name, like, the top big players in secret societies?

[A]

Well, you know, you've got the mafia.

[B]

Okay, yeah, we got the mafia. That's a good secret society.

[A]

Secret society, yeah. You've got Chabot, Shabbat.

[B]

I want to talk about Shabbat. I'm interested in that.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And now see, see, so. And we also have the Illuminati, and we also have, well, the Masons. Right.

[A]

Well, she. Phi Beta Kappa. Okay?

[B]

Phi Beta is this Skull and Bones.

[A]

This is, this is the organization that Phi Beta Kappa, some of it morphed into Skull and Bones. Okay, okay. Because see, Phi beta Kappa started December 5, 1776. Okay. Okay. And the Illuminati started May 1, 1776. Okay. And there's a lot of.

[B]

So these are the first. The first, first ones.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, well, no, no, there's that

[B]

world in modern times.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And. And so five. Five. Beta Kappa was December 5, 1776, at the College of William and Mary. Two shoots went off. One went to Yale, one went to Harvard. Then you had the American Revolution. And so College of William and Mary was shut down, but the two shoots at. At Yale and Harvard kept going. And there are Masonic scholars that say that Phi Beta Kappa was the Illuminati come to America. Okay? There's some that say, well, there wasn't enough time for the ships to get. Get back here, but there's plenty. Because, see, the Illuminati, you know, started by Weishaupt there in. In Bavaria, was very much Greek, okay? And before that, all the college, you know, little clubs had generally been Latin. Okay? So Phi Beta was one of the first ones to do Greek Greeks better. And then, so in. In the 1820s, it became very, you know, not gauche or whatever. You didn't want to be a member of a secret society. So the Phi Beta Kappa first at Harvard went. Went open, became an open society. And then the Phi beta Kappa In 1832, two members of Phi Beta Kappa, George Huntington Russell and Alfonso Tapp, then formed the Order of Skull and Bones. And William Huntington Russell had been in Germany going to school before then. And the Skull and Bones is an outgrowth of a German secret society of the Thule Society.

[B]

And what's their goal?

[A]

Their goal? You know, I. I don't know. I'm not a member. They don't. They don't. They don't tell me. But it seems that their goal is to control things, okay. Control our future and control our kids future.

[B]

Control our future and control our kids future, okay?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, one of the first things that Skull and Bones did was to take over the education system, okay? They brought over the Prussian education system, okay? The Prussians were very upset when Napoleon beat them, okay? So they took the actual kids, okay, by bayonet point and. And, you know, had compulsory education. And instead of teaching how to think, they teach you what to think, okay? And. And so William Huntington Russell was a. The scion of Russell and Company, okay. Which was the third largest opium smuggling concern in the world, okay? And opium creates a huge amount of money, okay? They say that, you know, now, you know, fentanyl has taken over a lot of that market. But they were saying that there was a million to a million two junkies in the United States. I think there's a few more, okay, And a million to a million two, that takes a ton a day, okay, that needs to be passed around to people, okay? Now there's some people that can, you know, maybe get a month supply, some people get a week supply, some people get a three day supply. Most people are daily opium intake. Intake, okay? So. And you know, you look at Russia, Russia is 5% of their population is daily opium intake. China still has the largest amount of people that are daily opium intake. Iran has the largest percentage. 10% of their population is daily opium intake. Okay? It creates huge amounts of money, which then allows these people to corrupt things. I mean, how. How Skull and Bones got its real big hooks into the United States of America and the United States government was through the Spanish American War. And that was because of drugs. Because you see, opium, after the second Opium War, opium became legal. Okay?

[B]

They don't like that, do they? And make that shit illegal?

[A]

I don't know. It should be legal.

[B]

No, I know. But they can make more money if it's illegal.

[A]

Right, right, right, right, right. So. So after it got made legal, you know, I was tracking these people because I was really, you know, digging into the to the drug trade. And you can see where they. After they lost their cash cow, before the. For the cash cow, they had 85% of the emerging steel infrastructure in the Far East. The railroads and the. The steamship lines. Okay, so they. You can see where they. They start selling it off. It gets down about 15 and they sell their.

[B]

These are like all kids. Look at this, look at these skull.

[A]

Look.

[B]

This is the Skull and Bones yearbook photo.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, every, every year. I mean, those guys, these kids look like teenagers. Well, they're juniors in college.

[B]

That's wild.

[A]

They're juniors in college.

[B]

So what's the initiation for Skull and Bones? Is it like some, like, weird. Like what those, what were those dudes who were the. The Templars? What they had to do, they had to like, kiss the taint of like the leader or something gay like that. They have to do anything like that with the Skull and bones.

[A]

You know, I, I don't know. I'm not a member. I mean, there's all kinds of stories, you know the story, you know that there is. They had a night where they have to tell everybody about all their sexual adventures and all this type of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. They probably had to blackmail each other, right? So they didn't have to rat. They can get any rats.

[A]

Well, you know, I mean, there's some secret societies where you have to give them blackmail material before you join.

[B]

I think that's what. I think that's how you have to get into American politics, is you have to give them blackmail. You know, I think, I think you have to, like, there has to be some sick that you've done in order for you to run. Run society.

[A]

Well, I find that sad.

[B]

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[A]

No.

[B]

And like, it kind of is flipping. Like a lot of people are getting their world views completely turned upside down, realizing that some of this shit, you know, that maybe this is the way the world works.

[A]

Well, that's. That's what happened with my, with my dad telling me that story, okay? And it, you know, it took me 20 years just to understand, you know, a lot of it. And by the time I under. Finally understood it to ask him questions, he was real sick and soon died. So I didn't really get to talk to him about it, but I got to go through his papers and understand some of it. It but again, a lot of it has to do with, with the drug trade. And then you want to know how the secret side is run the world?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, well, it's a leviathan of three levels, and each level has three parts.

[B]

Who's the top level?

[A]

Top level is mining, metal and money. Okay? You think about it. It makes sense. If you control the mining that the metal comes from, that the money's based on, you're in a really good position. I mean, I had an author that could affect that position. And he first came at me with a book about gold mining. But it was like, I don't know, a thousand pages. And it was just when I first got started publishing and I didn't, you know, I said, I know nothing about gold mining. And so he finally got it published someplace in Poland. And then he came at me later with a, with a thinner book. And he had the support of a professor from Stanford on it. And it was called Calling, Calling All Angels. And I said about the death of his great aunt Jane Stanford. And I says, okay, well, I'll publish this book for you, Stephen Requa. And we got it out and he was dead in seven days. Okay. He got run hit by a run over by a hit and run lorry in London. And I mean, this guy, you know, he was a mining engineer. His daddy was a mining engineer. His granddaddy was a mining engineer. His great granddaddy was a mining engineer and One of the 49ers, part of the Comstock load and president of the Central Pacific. Okay? So this, you know, and so mining, metal and money is the top level.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. The next level is a very active level. Drugs, guns and oil.

[B]

This is the Epstein level. Well, because he was doing a lot of arms trafficking.

[A]

Right? Well, and, and, and, and oil. You see, it was actually a mem. A member of Skull and Bones, Dr. Benjamin Solomon Jr. Okay. Who was given a vial of rock oil from, from cornell and by Mr. Bissell. And he wrote him a letter and he said, gee, gentlemen, you have some products here.

[B]

Richard Bissell.

[A]

Yeah. You have some products here that, with very inexpensive processes, you have some very valuable products. And so they were the piece. It was Skull and Bones that sent Drake to Pennsylvania to do the first oil well, okay? And the only reason we go to the oil store is because they own it. Okay? There's other ways of making energy. Okay?

[B]

Yeah, but we, you see the file. Epstein killed Pons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, we did a book about, about he killed Cold fusion energy fusion From a Italian, Top Italian scientist and the top Italian investigative reporter that talked about how they're already using cold fusion and they're using it to make quote, unquote, mini nukes.

[B]

And what?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a book called Three Secret of Three Bullets. And we had to do it as fiction. And they, I count they said, why do we have to do this in fiction? And I read it and I said, oh, I understand. And, but going back to.

[B]

They have cold fusion mini nukes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

In Italy.

[A]

No, they were, they were using them during the first Gulf War there. You know, they were saying that they would find these tanks, you know, and they would be all irradiated and stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and they were saying it was from spent uranium in the, in the armor or something like that. It was actually these mini nukes. I, you know, I'm, I'm not an expert on it and I, you know, I published the book, but it was like 15, 15 years ago.

[B]

I can't remember a whole lot. You know, I hear all these crazy stories, I've been hearing them for so long about how the US has the best top secret kind of weaponry, black budget stuff that looks like magic. But we go into this Iran war and it's like, it seems like we haven't progressed at all in centuries. Well, we're using the same old again, the secret societal.

[A]

You know, they really, The United States of America has been, you know, one of their focuses of, of having us dissolve. Okay. Because they do not like government oven buying for the people. Okay? So again, drugs, guns and oil, okay. And.

[B]

Oh yeah, I got you off track. We're doing this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It starts with mining, metal and money. The layer below that is drugs, guns and oil.

[A]

Right. And the drug trade, like I said, the Spanish American War, after opium became legal, okay. They lost their cash cow. And so what did they do? Well, they foment the Spanish American War through false flag and yellow journalism. I mean, the main. Right, remember?

[B]

What kind of journalism did you say?

[A]

Yellow journalism?

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Oh, that means like Hearst saying, you know, you give me, I'll make the war. I mean, they, they, they created propaganda, you know, false propaganda to get the American people yellow. That was a term at the time. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. And so they, you had Teddy Roosevelt, okay? Teddy Roosevelt was under Secretary of Navy, okay. And the Secretary of Navy had gout. Secretary Navy went home early one day. Teddy Stitt went up to the desk and Sent off a bunch of missives. Secretary of Navy came back and said, teddy, what did you do? And he never left early again, okay? And, well, we declared war on Spain, but we didn't go to Cuba right away. Teddy got to quit his job and go get a bunch of his friends together. But we took the Philippines right away, okay? That's what Teddy had done. He'd sent off message to Paris, get down there to Manila, okay? So we took. Why did we take over the Philippines, okay? Because Manila is the oldest western port in the Far east, okay? Spain were sending, you know, galleons from there, so. And these guys were, you know, opium smugglers. But, you know, they didn't really cop to it when they were doing it. They were, you know, China traders, right? They always had a back in Manila. So they sent out Arthur MacArthur as the first military governor, okay, in the Philippines. And then they sent out William Howard Taft as the first civilian governor, okay? And he was a member of the Order of Skull and Bones, son of the founder, Alfonso taft, okay? So McKinley asked William Howard, you know, you want to be on the Supreme Court? And William Howard looked, you know, he's a big guy. He looked good in black robes. And he's, matter of fact, the only guy who's both President of the United States and Chief justice of the United States Supreme Court. And so, but William Howard said no. And finally, McKinley was shot, okay? And Teddy was president. And see, the Roosevelts were heavily involved with the drug trade, okay? They were ship captains and owned ships. And matter of fact, Delano Warren, Delano Franklin's grandfather, was a chief factor for Russell Co. For 20 years in Canton. Matter of fact, he came back to the United States, lost all of his money in a panic and went back and made another fortune, okay? So then finally, Teddy asked William Howard, well, you want to be Secretary of War? William Howard said, sure, I'll be Secretary of War. His dad, he'd been Secretary of War. So he leaves the Philippines. Well, if you look at the historical record, what did William Howard do before he left the Philippines? He made opium illegal for the first time in modern Asia. Okay? So if it's illegal, you need them smugglers, okay? And then. And then what did William Howard do? He started the Hague and the Shanghai Convention, which gave us the prohibition on cannabis and the prohibition on coca and the prohibition on opium. And what that does is it allows these people to get primitives to grow these plants for pennies, okay? And then process them and sell them for big bucks, okay? Which gives them the Money then to corrupt everything. Oh, here, here, here, here, here. Because I mean, it's a huge, huge pile of money.

[B]

Right, right. What do you know about the Trilateral Commission?

[A]

Well, the Trilateral Commission was something set up by, wasn't it, Rockefeller. Rockefeller, yeah, David Rockefeller. Jimmy Carter was a member of it. And they had, you know, Asian normal, mostly Japan people in it. And I mean, it, it's a quasi secret society. I mean, it's really not secret. You've got, you can get a list.

[B]

Bill Gates was on there, right?

[A]

Or no, I don't know.

[B]

Find out. Is there a list of who was on the Trilateral. Trilateral Commission? Steve, see if you can find that. I had a. I have a friend who is a former CIA agent for like 20. Over 20 years. And he was telling me he has a very close former friend who is NCIA who went to one of the Trilateral Commission meetings and she said it was all about arms deals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, you know, it's a place where people can sit around a table and talk to each other, you know, and, and you know, get business done, whatnot, you know, and, and so drugs, guns and oil. Okay.

[B]

It's just crazy. Yeah, you know, it's crazy. All these people, right?

[A]

So where's this, where's this meets the road? Okay, Media, I mean, they got to control the narrative, right?

[B]

Okay, podcasts. Think they're controlling podcasts?

[A]

I don't know. Well, you know, they're trying to get

[B]

some of the secret society though, is

[A]

minimal, you know, I mean, and it always breaks through. There's, you know, the people are, people are stiff necked and then music slash movies. Okay. They got to control the culture or the cultural bite them in the butt.

[B]

Right, right, right, right, yeah, that used to work. Doesn't work so much anymore. Gates was not on the trilateral. Gates was never on the trilateral.

[A]

No.

[B]

So these are the guys. Wow, look at this. Keep. So these people all represent different countries.

[A]

I mean, it's basically a business meeting. You know, it's. It's similar to the Bilderberg meeting, Jason.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, similar to the Bilderbergs, South Africa,

[A]

where.

[B]

Who else we got here? Russia, Iran. Look at that, Iran, lady. We got Russia, Istanbul, Middle East Center, Beirut and Moscow. Okay, so is is the basic purpose of the Trilateral Commission for like all the countries to get together and say this is what we're gonna do. Like this is our plan. This is. We're gonna, how we're gonna run the world?

[A]

Well, maybe to a Certain extent, you know, I mean, they've got meetings, you know, all different times around. You know, they got the wef. You know, they got lots.

[B]

Why would they invite Jeffrey Epstein to the Trilateral Commission?

[A]

Well, because he has contacts.

[B]

When he's in his 20s or 30 years old, maybe, you know, seems like he was getting groomed.

[A]

Among other things. Among other things. You know, I mean, again, I'm not a member of these. I'm. I'm, you know, outside looking in, trying to. Trying to figure out, you know, what they're doing.

[B]

What is your take on it, though? You know, like, what do you think? What. Why. Why would they invite him at such a young age to be on the Trilateral Commission?

[A]

Because he had contacts. He had something that they wanted. They had something that they wanted, something that he could do, you know? I mean, it's about, you know, getting people together. Okay, what can you do? What can you do? You know? Okay, let's do it together. Oh, maybe we can make some money on this too. I mean, you know, I mean, these are government people and business people and, and stuff like that. So it's, you know, it's a meeting, but so it's. It's media, movie slash music and then quote, unquote, magic, okay? Their ability to hoodwink us, to make us think something else is happening, and then their preponderance on doing mass trauma rituals to keep us in line, okay? Because at its core, the JFK assassination is a mass trauma ritual, okay? I mean, they killed the president, right? In public, you kill the president.

[B]

What I've heard.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then 9, 11, also at its core was a mass trauma ritual. These.

[B]

These guys are Charlie Kirk thing too. It's pretty brutal.

[A]

Well, they perform what is known as death magic, okay?

[B]

Death magic.

[A]

Death magic, yes. By killing people, you get power.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's some of their belief. And, and they don't have to get everybody to believe that.

[B]

How do you get power from killing people?

[A]

I don't know. That's. That's their belief, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, the JFK assassination, if you look very hard at JFK assassin in 9 11. Both of their grounds, okay? The Killing Plaza of Dealey Plaza. Yeah. Okay. And the place where those buildings were built, okay. All started in the 30s, okay? They all started those operations in the 30s, okay? So this has been a, A long standing plan of using psychological warfare, okay? Because you see.

[B]

Don't tell me it was built in 1933.

[A]

What?

[B]

Oh, Deely Plaza. Well, you know, on the 33. On the 33rd latitude.

[A]

It is, it is on the 33rd.

[B]

I know, that's crazy.

[A]

And, and, and, and Elm street there is the only street around there that runs at 33rd degrees. I mean, I, you know, we've been doing these round tables for quite a while, and one of these round tables, we've had this one gentleman who's can show how every major city in, in the United States and, and most in the world are set up on a particular grid, a Masonic type.

[B]

Is it also true that the first nuke ever tested was on the 33.

[A]

33rd degree. The Trinity.

[B]

Trinity and Jerusalem's on the 33rd degree.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The End Times prophecy, Chris.

[A]

Well, End times prophecy, I mean, you know, there's been so many end Times prophecies over and over again. You know, people sell all their house, move up, get up in the top of the hill and wait for the world to end. Lord have mercy. It don't end. You know, I mean, it's a, it's a, that's a. Again, it's a control mechanism. Yeah. You know, you have, you have a particular group of people, the priests. Okay. I mean, the priest learned out a long time ago. Okay, I can make some smoke come out of that little hole over there. You know, the people bring me food, they'll bring me their kids, they'll bring me most anything. Okay. And, and so the priest learned how to, you know, do things so that they could get things from the population and control them. Okay. Another group out there is the pirates.

[B]

Pirates?

[A]

Pirates, sure. If you're, if you're a seafaring civilization and you come across a bunch of landlubbers, okay. Your, your knowledge is so superior to those land lovers that then you're able to, you know, use techniques to get what you want out of them. So you basically have, you know, through time these, these groups and this corruption has grown. Has grown up.

[B]

It's grown up, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's rather sophisticated. I mean, right. You know, you were saying that, you know, people started thinking about secret societies. I mean, I started thinking about them, you know, after my daddy told me. And.

[B]

No, I was, I was. I think, I don't. I think people have always been thinking about secret societies. I just think it was these people, these types of people who take them seriously have always been brushed off. Oh, yeah, until now.

[A]

I've been brushed off for years. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and now it's impossible to ignore, even though there's people that go to the end of the earth. To try to ignore it still.

[A]

Right. Well, you know, it's, it's again. And you know, when I would first start talking about this, you know, and people would come up to me and say, oh no, they're, they're just a bunch of greedy people. They just want money. And I'd say, they've already got a lot of money. It's not about money. It's about control. It's about control of the narrative and control of the future, okay? And which leads to control of your children, okay? Because, you know, we have as, oh, all of us together have fail safe devices. So we as a humanity just don't go all jumping off the cliff, okay? The first fail safe device is, is the dialectic, okay? And I say some things that I know are true about drug running, intelligence agencies and secret societies, okay? Then I find somebody that I know is a spook, okay, that says stuff just a little bit more outrageous. He put some lies in there, okay? Because by controlling the extremes, you control the middle. Okay? That, and so this, this fail safe device can be manipulated, okay? The next fail safe device we have is the cycle of generations. There's a very good book called Generations, A History of America's future. Okay? And you have an idealistic group, okay? Then you have a reactive group, then you have a civics group, and then you have an adaptive group. And then they start all over again, propelling us in the future. Yeah, okay, so the powers that be, the kids that were teens and preteens in the 1860s, they didn't cohere as a generation, okay? Some of them joined the generation after. Some of them joined the generation before. Some of them just went out in the woods and did weird stuff, okay? So what that does is it makes us a four cycle engine, but we're only running on three cycles.

[B]

You're talking about like the fourth turning type thing, right?

[A]

These are the same people that wrote the fourth turning, okay? This is their earlier book called Generations. Okay? So the. So, so in this book they talk about, okay, why did this, the kids that were teens and preteens in the 18Six Sixties, why didn't they cohere as a generation? Well, it was because of the assassination of a president. War and then opium, okay? And so what that. And, and because we were only a, you know, four cycle only running, it allowed these people to really get their claws into our country during the Spanish American war and all of that, okay? Because we weren't as strong, okay? Because we're only a four cycle cycle engine running on Three cycles. So they, they attempted to do that again, okay? To us, the people that were teens and preteens in the 1960s, the boomers, okay? And, and, and to, to do this, they had to have in place by 1950, three things, okay, they had to have the modern education system, okay? And this was brought to us in a very open campaign by the Masons, okay? And then they had to have television, okay? But not just television, but television that runs at 60 cycles. So it has a little flicker in there. You read any book about hypnosis, it'll tell you that 60 cycle flicker put you into a trance, okay? I mean, the pattern.

[B]

I, sorry to interrupt you. Somebody told me the other day that the education system. What was Kurt saying? He was saying kindergarten was specifically designed to get kids away from their parents.

[A]

I, I, I read that too. And there's, there's, you know, some, I'm sure there's some truth to that. And, and the, because the television that the patents go back to the 1920s, okay, is this guy was sitting there watching a wheat field blowing in the wind. He says, gosh, I could, I could make pictures on a cathode ray tube, okay? And so they got television in place. And, you know, I was right there in D.C. we, we had TV early and, and a nascent drug culture, okay? So they needed those three things in place by 1950s, okay? You had the beatniks, right? So they, it didn't happen. We weren't supposed to cohere. But as boomers did cohere, we cohered as hippies around a joint being smoked around a circle with a little bit of LSD thrown in, okay? Because see, with, with lsd, you can distract, you can make people wear white sheets, okay? But you can't control people like you can with opium and heroin. I mean, heroin's got a very simple dynamic here, kid. You want some? Oh, you want some more? Oh, how about your friends? Okay? I mean, that's the basic dynamic with that, okay? And because see, what my dad said about the Vietnam War about drugs is, it's absolutely right because see, what they were doing, they were sending American boys and girls, Canadian boys and girls, Australian boys and girls, Korean boys and girls, and a couple other boys and girls to Vietnam, okay? But like In World War II, you signed up and you didn't know when you was coming home, okay? But Vietnam War, you, you coming home after one year, okay? So a bunch of these kids, okay, got addicted to the heroin that was being proffered to him by anybody who was 12 years and up in Vietnam. And you know, an interesting thing about that is, you know, a lot of the people, you know, just dropped at cold turkey, but a bunch of them didn't. And then, you know, and they're spread all around the country, all around the world. And what does a junkie do? A junkie sells junk, okay? So the, you know, make it because, you know, there's this whole big thing about, you know, the hippies and everything. It's just a, it's just a CIA project. Project and all that type of stuff, right? And I look at it as well, maybe they tried, okay? But it's more like the, oh, the mad scientist and the experiment got way out of his. Way out of, way out of his hands, way out of control.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. And so, but, but so, so sippies, did we cohere it as a generation, okay? And oh, they did a History channel, did a big two hour special on the hippies, okay? And they said what came out of the hippies? They said the personal computer and the Internet, okay? And see, those are the tools that we're using to fight the corruption of people using secrecy to lie, cheat and steal, okay? Because see, the personal computer allows me, allows me to be a publisher, allows you to be a podcast, okay? And then the Internet allows us to tell people about it and talk about it, okay? And so how are we going to get rid of this corruption if we don't know about it? Okay? We're going to get rid of it. If we don't know about it and if we start to understand it, okay, then we can get rid of this corruption because again, they're, they're. These people ain't gods, they're just people, okay? And they're using their secrecy to lie, cheat and steal, okay? And, and you know, just destroy the United States of America. I mean, what our founders went through, okay, to, to create this country of government, of and by and for the people, you know, where. We aren't taking our orders from no king. We aren't taking our orders from any pope or whatnot. You know, we're taking our orders from the people.

[B]

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[A]

Well, I mean, first of all, the Internet, every, every. I mean, everything happens, you know, for some reason or another. You know, whether, you know, do I, do. I think that there's a. Let me just put it to you plan back there.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Like the Internet we know was created by darpa. Yeah, the darpa Net and Jacques Vallee, I think had a huge. Or no, Jacques Valet was gps.

[A]

I think the guy, the guy, the guy in Switzerland. But see what happened. No, with darpa, okay, again, with the Internet, the people drove it into something that nobody had any idea. I mean, you, you know, I've read a lot of science fiction. I was big, big reading in science fiction as a kid and all of that, all the Heinlein, all that stuff. Okay. And there, there's nothing out there that, that, that, that, you know, shows. Exactly. I mean, maybe the closest thing is Moon is A harsh mistress. Okay. But no, basically, you know, in the Bay Area there, okay, somebody in Berkeley says, wait a minute, it, I can sell my Volvo to this guy over here in Stanford. Okay. And, and, and so, I mean, it, it grew up into something that nobody had any idea that it would be. Yeah, Okay. I mean, it wetted itself so fast to the, to the financial markets and all kinds of things. Okay? So no, I, I do not think that what the Internet has become was some sort of. Some guy in DARPA many years ago said, oh yeah, yeah, that's what it's.

[B]

You don't think it was some, some big broad spanning overall control plan by the elites to like, look, we're going to create this thing called the Internet. It's going to secretly spy on everyone around the world. You know, similar to how the creation of Google happened with Sergey Brin getting groomed and visited by the people from CIA and nsa.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's, that, that was, you know. Yes. I mean there's, there's, there's that aspect to it, but they can't control everything and they can't control every person, you

[B]

know, and certainly not.

[A]

And, and people are driving things way beyond what, what, what their control mechanism. I mean, that's. How come the, the corruption is so much in our face these days, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's quite, quite in our face, the corruption. It is.

[B]

And I wonder what that's doing. It's. On one hand, I feel like it's getting out of their control because it is so blatant in our face. And on the other hand, I feel like, is it really out of their control? Can they just let it out and drive people crazy enough to where nobody knows where the line between illusion and reality is and people are just gonna be stuck in this mass psychosis and fighting each other over everything.

[A]

Well, you know, we've done some AI and we're looking on doing another AI book. And one of the things that, that, that gentleman talks about is that it's, it's easier for them to control a divided society than it is, you know, so, so it might behoove them, you know, to divide people and. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's an old standard thing, divide and conquer.

[B]

You, you know, and it seems like with this Epstein stuff that the old media establishment is doing their best to use the most bipartisan story of my lifetime, which is Jeffrey Epstein, to divide or distract from it and to, to, to make it bipartisan or to make it more Partisan and to make it. And to even, just to push it aside, you know, things like calling it a Democrat hoax and, and all this other. When I feel like that this Epstein story is the biggest bridge between both sides of the political spectrum I've ever seen. And it seems like, like it baffles my mind how you can have all of these social justice riots over things like the George Floyd thing and other things where you see people getting, you know, streets getting burned and all this other stuff. And then Jeffrey Epstein, no one does a thing about it. No one seems to care. And it's like you have way more people being abused and victimized and murdered over this. Why do you think, why do you think that is? Have you thought about that?

[A]

Well, just from my experience, okay, in the 60s and 70s, in anti war, okay, you would, you could follow the anti war up, up to, to their leaders and you would end up with a bunch of commie CIA people, okay? Because, you know, it was behooving them to, you know, to have it, have it under control, okay? And, and, you know, and, and the whole thing about, you see the Spanish American War, one thing that, that. Did we then, then start having a war like every 20 years?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, What. What did your daddy do in the war? What did your daddy do in the war? You know, so it creates that mentality, okay? So one of the things that they were trying to create there too, because they wanted this division it was to, you know, have this, this anti war. And, you know, well, they're, they're, you know, dirty, evil people and blah, blah, blah, blah. Because, you know, one of the things that, when I first started talking to people in the 70s, a little bit about what my daddy said, my little bit of research, somebody looked at me and said, you're a conspiracy theorist. And I said, what's a conspiracy theorist? You know, So I took it on as an intellectual discipline, okay? And one of the. Again, I like books. So I went into every bookstore I could find, okay, and said, take me to a conspiracy section. And all of them had at least one book, okay? So I took these books and, you know, started reading them after a while, I said, wait a minute, you know, because I got a book that, you know, blames it on the Mormons. I got a book that blames it on the Roman Catholics, okay? I got a book that blames it on the Masons. I got a book that blames it on the Jews. I got a book that blames it on the secular humanist, okay? So I said, these are these are like formula books, okay? You know, I don't like you, you don't like me. You know, let's. Let's throw stones back and forth, okay? So again, you know, by controlling the extremes, you control the middle, okay? That's why you have all the, you know, the, the weird stuff on. On the hard right and the weird stuff on the hard left. Because by. Again, by controlling the extremes, you control the middle, okay? So

[B]

that's interesting.

[A]

It's. It's definitely a. A wild world. I mean, you know, we did this book called the Nebula by Belgian writer, and it was based on a Belgian state police report. Okay. And they. You know what a police do? Well, we'll put an undercover guy in, right? You know, he rises up and up and up in these things. He gets to the top and he founds that there's a whole bunch of groups all called the order, okay? But they're different flavors, okay? You might have a gay one, an Islam one, a Jewish one, you know, whatever.

[B]

Different order for each. Each flavor society, Right?

[A]

And. And then, and then, you know, you say, well, now, how. What are these people going to do? You know, this one, they don't trust this one over here. So what are they going to do, scapegoats? Well, they're going to say, hey, have a couple of your people join my circle. And we'll have a couple of your people join my circle, okay? And so you have these interlocking circles, and then you have a council type thing. But. And the other thing that the secret societies have is they've been keeping records for, you know, hundreds of years, okay? And so they have like a column, horoscope column, economic column, you know, different things so that they can keep track of things. And then also, if they see a similar situation, they say, well, hey, well, this is what happened back then. You know, maybe we can look at that. But what we have going on now is, you know, like that fourth turning.

[B]

We.

[A]

We have a major paradigm shift happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And what those guys show is that every time you have a major paradigm shift, no matter who you are, okay, things are going to change big time. So during a time like this, the quote, unquote powers that be are going to try and pull out all stops so that as the shifting happens, they land on their feet. Right? So. And I'm very hopeful for the future. Again, I truly think, think that by, you know, continuing to expose this corruption, okay, we can hopefully, you know, come to a situation where we can deal with it.

[B]

Yeah. Where do you think all of this goes, how do you think? Like, do you think there'll be a massive restructuring of the government or how government works? Or, like, my opinion is, you know, how they throw those big tents over the houses to fumigate it of all of the termites? That's what they need to do to the United States government.

[A]

Well, you know, I go along with something like that. You know, I mean, there was. There was a huge restructuring after Watergate. Okay. There was a huge restructuring after Watergate. There was a lot of, you know, lawyers put into different places to make sure that people just couldn't. Couldn't, you know, go off the rails. Like some of that they did. And, you know, like Nixon. I mean, how did Nixon get his job?

[B]

That's a good question. I don't know.

[A]

He blackmailed the Dulles brothers.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he was. He was. He was a lawyer running around New York City wrapping up some of the contracts. Okay. And the Dulles were in constant. A mansion out in Long Island Island. Okay. And they were bringing in not one or two or ten, but thousands of Nazis against direct written orders from Harry Truman. Okay.

[B]

The Dulles brothers were.

[A]

The Dulles brothers were for what?

[B]

Well, this was pre Paperclip.

[A]

This is pre Paperclip. Post Paperclip and part of Paperclip. Okay, okay. And because they were. They were their friends. I mean, Dulles did op Operation Sun Sunrise. He. He, you know, did a piece of paper, you know, with General Wolf before the, uh, real surrender, and then he brought over Richard Galen, okay, To run the Galen organization.

[B]

I don't know who Richard Galen is.

[A]

Richard Galen ran the intelligence for the Nazis, mostly in. In Eastern. Eastern Europe.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he was in const. In a set up. The Galen organization.

[B]

So you said Nixon got blackmail on the Dulles brothers and that's how he got into the power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy. And Nixon also was the head of some sort of commission. Like 15. Oh. Something commission.

[A]

Well, operation 40.

[B]

Basically, yeah. Operation. Yeah, there was a. There was a. Yeah, there was some sort of 15, 12. I want to say it was. Or something like that.

[A]

5401.

[B]

5401. That sounds right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was working with that billionaire dude who had the ship that recovered the submarine.

[A]

Hughes.

[B]

Howard Hughes.

[A]

Hughes. Well, yeah, there. You know, basically, after Dulles, they sent Prescott Bush to take care of Richard Nixon. And, you know, he introduced him to a bunch of the gangsters in. In LA and whatnot. I turned the mob down twice.

[B]

You turned the mob down for what? What were they Offering?

[A]

Well, I was a salesman selling pre recorded video and kind of video. Well, I was sounding music. You know what. You know, at the very beginning there, there was, you know, we had one sheet of paper, had both VHS and Beta on it there. And I was at the CES show, Consumer Electronics show in Chicago. Yeah. And I was a typical salesman. I ain't making enough money. And they said, go, go meet Guido up at the top of the stairs. And I go up there, and he's up there and he sees I'm a hippie and so he. He offers me Cheech and Chong movies that aren't even in the theater because at this point in time, you could get, you know, easy hundred bucks for Superman or, or Star wars and stuff, because they weren't out officially. And. But I. I just. I don't know, I didn't. Didn't like him. Yeah. So I said no. And then later on, they wanted to set up a used warehouse in Portland. And I knew it'd be used, but there'd also be a bunch of black market stuff there. And they made sure that I knew that the lounge where they did the thing right, was to meet their boss, that he owned it. And I get there and. And he's brings three picture books. This picture book of his mansion, this picture book of his horses, this picture book of his cars.

[B]

And.

[A]

But you. You only tell those guys yes once. And I've been around the block enough to know that. So I told them no.

[B]

Yeah, probably. Good move. So yet Nixon and Howard Hughes went through the mafia to try to whack Castro. Right?

[A]

Well, you had Ed Lansdale, the, The guy that, that replaced my dad. And he used to come over to the family house, too. He was. He was head of Operation Mongoose, okay, which was the thing that, that brought the mob and, and CIA together to kill Castro. And then for my money, Lansdale wrote the script for the JFK assassination.

[B]

I mean, do you think he wrote the. Lansdale wrote the script?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You. You had Pegasus. Pegasus was set up by Truman, okay, When he signed the CIA into operation. And it was to. It was mostly naval intelligence people, but a couple other people. And they were to go off reservation and to look in and see what was going on. And if anything hinky was going on, they were supposed to tell the President, and there's a guy by the name of Trent Parker, and he had a tap on Hoover's phone, okay? And before the assassination, they got a conversation with Hoover and Johnson, okay? They're. They're so blackmailable they're in your pocket.

[B]

Yeah, those guys are fuck sick fucks.

[A]

And then you had Alan Dulles, okay? He's a consigliere, okay? And then you had George H.W. bush on this conversation. And he brings Skull and Bones, the whole pull Skull and Bones people. Abril Harriman and whatnot. And Prescott. And then you had David Rockefeller. No, excuse me, Nelson Rockefeller. Yeah, and he brings David in and, and that's your, your basic crew, okay? And then you see, I mean, when you have a conspiracy, hey, you want to go kill the President with me? You don't do that. What you do is you hold it very tight. And then, then you lie. You lie to those people to get them into the position that you want them to be in when the, when the action happens.

[B]

Have you heard of John Newman? Oh, yeah, he's got a great grip on all the moving parts in the JFK story.

[A]

John. John's okay, but no, I, I've been at conferences where he said, hey, I was wrong.

[B]

Okay, that's, that's a good thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, he used to put in that James Jesus Angleton was a big part of it. And James Jesus Angleton again got his job by blackmailing the Dulles brothers, okay, Because Alan came to him and said, you know, there's a.

[B]

How do you do that? How do you get your. Get a job by black. It seems like he didn't do the

[A]

background checks on, on a bunch of Dulles friends. He was. Had a counterintelligence.

[B]

Right, I know that, okay. I'm just saying how do you present that? It seems like a dangerous way to get a job, to use the blackmail.

[A]

And it's funny, you know, if you read about blackmailers, one thing that blackmailers tend to do is they tend to get paranoid. Okay. And James Jesus and Richard were both rather paranoid, you know, and why would you bring James Jesus in? In. You know, there's no reason to bring James Jesus in. You just do the deed and then you let James twist in the wind and create mud for you.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so Newman's whole take on JFK was, it was the military coup, he said it was limit her and the Joint Chiefs of Staff that wanted the all out nuclear war with China and Russia. And basically Kenny Kennedy was getting in the way of that, trying to stop it. So.

[A]

Well, then why didn't they do it after Kennedy died?

[B]

Because he has a good answer for that. And I don't remember what that answer is, but basically the point of the point was at that point in time, the, the spring before his death was when the US had the most nukes and Russia had the least nukes. And, and we figured they. Actually, I think this was documented. They said that we would lose something like 60 million people, but they would lose 150.

[A]

So it was insane.

[B]

It was.

[A]

That's insane. Yeah, that's insane. Okay. No, no, it wasn't the military. It wasn't a military. I mean, you, you, you, you had to lay the military off. You had to tell them particular lies and different things like that. That. But, you know, the object of it was the American people. Yeah. I mean, you, you kill the President in broad daylight, okay. With a story that a five year old can, can see through. Okay. Well, I mean that, that tells the American people, well, hell, you ain't in charge of your government. Okay?

[B]

Yeah. This is another thing that there's a million different flavors of the Kennedy death.

[A]

There's.

[B]

People say it's everything that people say, it's Israel, it's aliens, it's. It's nukes, it's whatever.

[A]

Yeah, no, it was, it was a psychological.

[B]

Think it was an intentional psychological trauma experiment on the public.

[A]

It wasn't an experiment. They knew what they were doing. I mean, my. We're. Mind control. Let's talk about mind control.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it. Actually, let me take a quick break. I got to take a pee real quick.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right. We'll be right back. Mind control. We're going to jump right back into. Tell me about mind control.

[A]

Well, well, mind control, you've got a couple of factors to mind control. First one is trance, okay? And everybody takes trance differently. Some people, you know, go. Go deep really fast. Some people, you know, it'll last long. It. But everybody affects trance differently. Then you have role playing, okay. If you would, would you do something not as yourself, but would you do it if you were Toto the dog? Okay. And then you have trauma, okay. And ritual, okay. Those are the basic things of mind control. Now they call it Operation Bluebird. Why did they call it Operation Bluebird? Okay, Metrolinks play, okay? And because in Metrolinks play, there's like five pages of characters. I mean, there's like milk, water, the luxury of being a slave, the luxury of being rich. I mean, there's just all kinds of off the wall characters in it. Okay, so where was Metrolink's play first put on 1906 in Moscow. Same place you had Pavlov and his dogs. Okay. See, the mind control they move it around too. Because if you keep it in one place too long, people start looking at it and seeing it there. It's one. The mob learned that too. I mean, if you have a house, ill repute, okay. You have the same girls there all the time, the revenue on that house goes down, okay? So they had to move the girls around, okay. And because, like, you know, if you look at the Thule Society, okay, Where Hitler came out of, okay, you've got a lot of mind control, different things coming out of there. And so it gets down to a very technical level again, too. The flicker in the TV and different things like that. But just like you can do mind control to a single person, okay. A single body. You can do mind control to a nation, to a community, to, you know, to anything that. That's a unital value. You smash that unital value, okay. You create altars.

[B]

Right, right. The two political parties are my. Is based. That's a version of mind control. It's a way to keep people in check and control them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And fit them into different ideologies. Right.

[A]

Well, it. It has aspects of it and can be used that way.

[B]

It's a very high level, broad version of mind control.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the deepest, most sinister aspects of mind control go back to the Cold War days with like MK Ultra and the finders.

[A]

And finders aren't, well, Cold War. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. What. What was the. Can you explain the finders?

[A]

Well, basically they came across these people in a park in Florida, if I remember correctly, and then they traced them back to a place outside of Maryland. And again, it's about getting kids, okay. And start doing dastardly things to them to create altars, okay. And. And then it.

[B]

To create like Manchurian candidates, that kind of thing.

[A]

You know, there's mind control survivor conferences. I strongly recommend go to one now and then, okay? And I went to one and we got this is good 20 years ago. And there was like the women. There's at that point in time, one of the biggest. Because they've got to experiment. They've got. They've got to figure out how it works, okay? And the number one one that they work on is. Is women that work for the federal government. Okay. And so we got about. It wasn't quite 20. It was maybe about 18 of these ladies in a row and by their ages, okay. And we started talking, asking them questions, and you could see where the ones, the older ones, they were basically trying shotgun approaches, trying to figure out, okay, what do I have to do to the brain to make, you know, certain things happen where he got down to the end. They were just using stun guns and they, they had, you know, the different delta and different aspects that they groom people for. Either spies, assassins, sex and, and different things like that. And you know, you have, you have people there that have been used in, in, in, in Masonic ceremonies as, as little kids because in their, their, they're this innocent type thing in their, in their rituals. And you know, it, it's really quite insidious. But again, just like you can do it to, to one person, you can, you can do it to a, to a country.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And, and because it, it shatters, it shatters the mind and then, you know, and they're always after people that have, need a strong father figure. Okay. And you know, like Lee Harvey Oswald. And now do you know who Michael Rupert is?

[B]

I know the name to remind me who he is.

[A]

He, he wrote a book from the Wilderness, okay. And he, I, I met him through the CIA drugs crowd and he was a gentleman that went through mind control as a kid. Okay. And because like the JFK community, that's a, you know, that's a, that's a large community looking into it. CIA drugs, very, very small community. Okay. And we, we were making some inroads and so they sent Deutsch, the CIA director to la and, and Rupert gets up there and, and confronts him.

[B]

Oh yes, I know this, that video is incredible, right?

[A]

And then, then he becomes a quote, unquote, you know, a leader in the CIA drugs thing. Well, I was putting on CIA drug symposiums and, and he started throwing his weight around and stuff. Hopsicker was the first person that says there's, there's something hinky there going on. And you know, he tried to, he did make me not have one person there at one of the symposiums and which I was very sad because he was soon run over by a truck. And he was a dia.

[B]

He was.

[A]

No, not Rupert. This gentleman by name of Brian Quick, who was a DIA agent and was adding quite a bit to the discussion. And then all of a sudden, you know, 911 happened and the CI drugs email list, we were very much, oh, into, you know, deconstructing government lies and everything. So as soon as 911 happened, the first thing that was said was, okay, everybody turn on your VCRs, okay? And start recording everything. And, And you know, the powers that be hit that little email list too. They sent somebody in there. Well, the first thing, you know, 911 was you had the Boeing, boeing.com. okay. Boeing, Boeing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Which there was no planes in D.C. in other words, no plane hit the Pentagon. Well, if you've been to D.C. the Pentagon is surrounded by freeways, okay? There was plenty of people in D.C. who saw that plane hit, okay? But if you start the meme out there that, oh, there's no planes on in D.C. it makes, you know, the people in Congress that could actually do something think that we're all nuts, okay? And then, then there was a lady by the name of Web Fair, okay? And she started the thing about, well, there's no planes in New York either. They're all, what's it, UFOs.

[B]

They're holograms.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that kind of stuff. And then you had the, the kicker come in where this other guy came in, Sean McBride. He comes in and says, oh, the Jews did it all. Okay? Which is the way to, you know, shut down any conspiracy thing. You just, you know, say, say, say the Jews did it all. And, and, and we've come to find out that Sean McBride wasn't Sean McBride. He was John Foster Burleigh, okay? He was a spook who started, you know, doing dirty and even before the Internet on bulletin boards and, you know, and they tried to take that over and then, and then Rupert became very big in 911 and helped him do that. And he, you know, before we had the first big 911 conference in San Francisco, all of a sudden Mike goes to Russia for two weeks for an economic conference and then he comes back and says, well, you know, 9 11. Oh, we're just reshuffling the chairs on the Titanic. I'm going to do the old conspiracy two step tango and take you to peak oil. That's really the big conspiracy that's going on. The big bad thing that's happening, which was complete. Okay, excuse my language. And because, because, you know, he went through the mind control as a kid and, and he brought another person into CIA drugs who had openly talked about going through the mind control training as a kid. Katherine Austin Fitz. Okay, she does.

[B]

Oh, I know her.

[A]

Yeah, I know her. Yeah. She's a, she's a very smart, very nice lady. I, I like her a whole lot. She doesn't like to talk about that

[B]

now, but what would tell me what happened to her?

[A]

She went through mind control as a kid. You know, that's how, that's how she got on to be on, on Dylan Reed. Okay. Yes, it used to be.

[B]

How do you know she went on through mind control as a kid?

[A]

She told me. She talked about it.

[B]

Oh, publicly?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. She didn't like to. Well, we were.

[B]

How did this happen?

[A]

Private conversations, but yeah.

[B]

How did this happen to her?

[A]

I. I don't know. You know, she just.

[B]

That's all she said. I went through mind control as a kid.

[A]

Well, she went through more, but I mean, this was, this was good 20 some years ago, you know, I'm 70 something. I don't remember everything. Lord have mercy. And it's like, you know, Gerald Ford went through mind control training. You know, he went through the football program. Okay. Along. Along with Ted Gunderson, okay. Who was Special Agent Charge of FBI in la. Because, you see, you can follow the mind control training. You know, a lot of it came over from, from Europe. Okay. Went into the Army. Okay. And then when the Air Force went out of the army, most of it went. Went to the Air Force. Okay. And there's. When you look at mind control for a long time, you find what I call them, wells. In other words, they're places where there's been a lot of activity for, for a long period of time. Okay. And where did, where did Gerald Ford come from? What's Gerald Ford's real name?

[B]

Jerry?

[A]

Leslie King, Jr. Leslie Keane, Jr. King. King Jr. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

How do you get Gerald Ford out of Leslie King?

[A]

Well, his, His. His mom remarried, but they're always after kids that need a, you know, good, good. Need a father figure. And, and so you, you can see where, where this mind control was in, in academy for a while. Okay. And these academies said, okay, I've got one person here and I can, I can have him work with me, but, you know, I'd like to see if I could get two people. People together and if I can, you know, get them to, to work together. Okay? They decided football was the place to do that. Okay. And Alonzo Stagg, a member of the Order of Skull and Bones, is considered the father of American football.

[B]

Alonzo Stag.

[A]

Stag, yes.

[B]

He created American football.

[A]

S T A G G. And so you look at Gerald Ford, where was he as a football player? He started off in Omaha. Okay. A big well. Okay, and then, and then where did he go from Omaha? He went to Michigan. Okay. They like Michigan. They could give, give people drugs and take them to Mackinac island and think that, hey, you took me back a hundred years. You're a powerful person. Okay? And then where did he go after Michigan? He went to Quantico and then he went to Yale. Okay. And that's where he got his law degree and he was an assistant football coach there. Okay. And you know, and he came in real handy, didn't he? Okay. During the Watergate and all of that. I mean, and then the, Oh, what's his name? The, the LA guy. Ted Gunderson. Okay. I mean, you know, he's been at my house, you know, spent, spent a couple nights there and you know, I talked to him about it directly. Told him, I said, ted, you're being used and abused. Okay. Ted was out of the football program too. Okay. Where did he play his college, his high school football? Colorado Springs. In any air force around There, There. Okay, then where did he go from Colorado Springs? He went to Omaha. And then where did he go from? Oh, he went to Quantico and then Yale. Okay. So it's a. Day. The powers that be have affected our history a lot with us not even knowing it.

[B]

So the NFL was created by the CIA?

[A]

I didn't say NFL.

[B]

I said American football.

[A]

American Football. Alonzo Stag. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's pretty crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Well, George H.W. bush's first base coach was one of the, oh guys that recruited people there at Yale. I mean, and Bush was in the CIA right after Yale. He, you know, him just joining it when he was a director is malarkey.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

What is your Overall take on 911? What do you think that was again?

[A]

It was a mass trauma hit against the American people.

[B]

So it was intentional and the American government was complicit in it.

[A]

Well, the secret societal part of the American government was complicit with it. Okay. I mean, not the whole American government was complicit in it. No. You know,

[B]

there is this. I saw this video on X. Someone sent me this video of this group of students doing this crazy art project in one of the Twin Towers. And it took up an entire floor, was basically shut down for months right before 9 11. Are you familiar with this? I gotta find this real quick. I send this to you, Steve. Yeah, there was. I think I might have sent it. That's it. That's it. You found it. No, no, the guy on the right. That interview on the right. Check this out. That. We got headphones right here. If you put these on, you can hear the audio. All right, press play.

[A]

Good evening, you're watching the Artist Forum. My name is Ellie Fordyce and I will be your host for this segment this evening. I'm very, very happy, happy to be up at World Views, which is a wonderful art exhibit and presentation that the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council has been putting on here at the World Trade Center. Number one building, World Trade Center. And I have with us tonight Mukhtar Kocash. And Mukhtar, can you tell us something about this program and your involvement with it? Sure. This is actually an artist residency program. Artists apply and are selected by a jury to be in residence on the

[B]

91st floor for a period of approximately six months.

[A]

And it's a raw space.

[B]

It's a shared studio experience for approximately 15 to 20 artists. And they get to work in this environment.

[A]

Some people paint the views. Some people work on issues of corporate culture.

[B]

Some people are interested in issues of scale. Others meditate and do very ephemeral works.

[A]

Because as you can imagine the views are very inspiring and the light is very beautiful. This program was actually started as it

[B]

is three years ago.

[A]

However, approximately four years ago an experiment to have artists in the World Trade

[B]

center was initiated by an artist called

[A]

Carl Scorza and who approached the Lower Manhattan Culture Council about the desire to

[B]

paint from the World Trade center during the winter because it was convenient and the World Trade center would offer. So go back to the very first frame of that video. It shows like a wild wide angle of some of the art all over the floor and the walls. Just refresh it and see if it, if it restarts it. I want you just to see. So right there, look, pause that. You see how it says exit on the back wall and on the floor. And then if you play it, it shows like a different area where it says that they have, they have the word exit everywhere. It's just so strange because there was. Right, look. Yeah, look at that. Freaky. Because there are descriptions of people talking about crazy like floors being shut down months before that and like construction and crazy jackhammering going on. On one of the shutdown floors.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean I, I think that, that there was, you know, there had to be some pre. Planning on, on the whole thing to get it, to get it to happen. But.

[B]

And then in the Epstein files you have that whole Shadow Commission thing where they're emailing Ghisain asking her if she wants to be a part of the, the 911 Shadow Commission. And then there's that whole missing tranche of emails between like 1999 and 2001.

[A]

What are they trying to hide? I mean, you know, I, I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just a kid looking at this from the outside trying to figure out what's going on. Okay. And I mean it's, it's quite obvious that, you know, there's, there's all kinds of occult things. About 911 we did a book called the Most Dangerous Book in the World where you know, the guy deconstructs all the different cult lines to, to the act. And then. Have you ever talked to Richard [e-mail] no. I strongly recommend that Richard is supposed to be dead. He was supposed to be in 911 that day, but he had a car that had just got done and he picked it up from his, The, the garage and, and he didn't get to work on time that day, him and Howard Lutnick. And so he's done a lot of incredible work on that. And. And he's. He's quite, oh, erudite around about the whole thing.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I strongly recommend you talking to him, too.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'll check him out. You know, another. Another interesting character tied into all this stuff and the Epstein stuff is Howard Lutnick, who is still employed by Trump's White House after all of this. You know, he was on a podcast six months before the Epstein files came out. Absolutely. Lying through his face hole about how he met him one time and then made a. Made a dying vow with his wife to never, ever be in touch with that despicable human being ever again.

[A]

And he lives, what, nine steps away from him.

[B]

Yeah. 11 East 71st Street. And Jeff and Epstein was like, 90 71st Street.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so they shared a wall between their two houses, and there's tons of. I don't know how many, but there was a bunch of emails between them where they were going to, like, all the things in that podcast interview he said that he vowed never to be a part of with Epstein fundraisers, this, that, whatever. He was literally at all those exact types of events with Epstein. Not to mention he was literally going to his island with a boatload of people and there's photos of them together hanging out like. Like the fact that this guy still has a job is insane. And he was one of the ones who famously made those crazy bets on the airlines right before the 911 happened.

[A]

He was. Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. No, I mean, it's crazy. I mean, the whole Epstein story, you know, we did One Nation Under Blackmail by. By Whitney Webb, and that was built on, you know, a bunch of other books that we did, like, like the Franklin scandal. Okay. And, you know, I mean, I'd been. Because of, you know, Franklin cover up and all of that, I'd been talking to people in Omaha, and one day I get a call from these people in Omaha and tell me, well, there's this guy from Rolling Stone. He's gonna break the whole story open.

[B]

Oh, Nick Bryant.

[A]

Yeah. And I says, I heard that. And I said, sounds to me like a vacuum cleaner operation. Okay. Basically where they send in somebody to find out who knows what and all kinds of stuff like that. But I finally, I got a hold of Nick and we talked and he said, well, you know, he was a member of this group that was in Greenwich Village and he knew everybody in New York City. And so he was. The book was going to come out from New York. And I gave him a couple books and said, okay. Well, remember, I'm here. And a couple of years later, he came back and says, yeah, New York isn't going to touch this. And so we did Franklin Scandal. And, you know, and then I saw Whitney. I don't know, somewhere on, you know, on my computer screen, I said, you seemed like an interesting gal. And I got a hold of her and I says, you must have a book in you. And she says, yeah, I think I do. And, you know, it took a. Took a little while because she got pregnant and Covid and whatnot. And so by the time she delivered it to me, it was, you know, 900,000 pages or something. And I said, people aren't going to.

[B]

900,000 pages.

[A]

No, 900 or a thousand.

[B]

Oh, I was gonna say, Jesus.

[A]

And. And so I said, you know, people don't. Don't. Don't like those bigger books to read, you know, Right? And. And she says, well, it's kind of two books. So we broke it apart. And, you know, it just. I mean, it really nails it. It shows how, you know, it gives a history of honey traps, okay? And to do a honey trap, okay, basically, first off, you need a room. You need a building, you know, and then you need some little boys and girls, okay? And then you got to get the whole place wired, you know, for video and sound, okay? And then you're going to need a manager, and the manager is going to want security, okay? So it's. It's. It's a costly operation. It's a big operation. And she showed how that in. In the second book that, well, you know, we don't need to do a honey trap in the room anymore. All we need to do is be able to hack into somebody's cell phone, and we know all about them and whatnot. So, you know, how does this world really work, okay? It works through deceit and secrecy and a lot of blackmail and stuff like that. And, you know, I really think that, you know, now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their country, okay? And we can, you know, stand up if it takes going in the streets. Takes going in the streets, but that we need to have government oven buying for the people and not government buy.

[B]

Yeah, well, it seems that ship sailed.

[A]

Well, so what. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? You're just going to. Just going to live with it and say, hey, that ship sail? No, you know, don't, don't. Don't you want to have. I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I, I, the boomers and you know, right around there, you know, I mean, we're basically a bridge between the analog and the digital. Okay. I mean, when, you know, we grew up, I mean, there was, you're lucky, we got three TV stations. Okay. And, you know, and you know, it's a much different world today, and that's generally how history goes. But no, I think that, you know, all the, you know, the Constitution is still there, okay. And a lot of our institutions are here, okay. A bunch of them have been corrupted, but there's no reason why we can't take them back and have government of, and buying for the people.

[B]

How do you, how would we do that? How would that happen?

[A]

Well, through voting. Through, through, through elections.

[B]

I think people have already lost faith in voting and elections.

[A]

Well, they have, but what do you, you know, I, I just, I don't know. You've got to, you got to stand. We got to stand up for our country. We, we got it. We, we have to.

[B]

What was the famous Thomas Jefferson quote? Every certain amount of time you have to spill the blood of the tyrants on the tree of liberty.

[A]

Well, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. Okay. But, you know, I, I think it can be done around a table every 200 years.

[B]

I think it was.

[A]

Yeah. And, and through, through information. I truly do. I think, I think it can be done. So, you know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm just, you know, silly hippie, but I, I truly think that, that our country is worth spending time and energy to restore. You know, I mean, it's, it's, we're people just like, you know, the people of that that were in the founding, you know, the founders and, you know, they stood up. And I think this, But I think it can be done. And you know what? It has to be done through voting. And yeah, you know, we had more people not vote than people that voted for either party last time.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. You know, because, yeah, people have lost faith in a lot of things.

[B]

Yeah. You can't really blame them.

[A]

Well, I, I understand that, but what, you know, again, what, what are you, what are you going to do? You, you just gonna give up and get grifted? Have your, have your country get grifted away?

[B]

No, you can't give up. I don't know what it is. Is it, is it, is it. Because it seems like it's a problem that's too big to fix. You know, why do people take so much more action over other trivial, not trivial, but other Much smaller scale problems in our society because maybe it affects them more directly. Maybe this doesn't affect them as directly they think so. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's

[B]

like I said, this Epstein, this Epstein thing, I would. I would expect like full on anarchy in the streets over something like this. Speaking of Epstein. What? There was a woman who was a victim of him who. You were working on a book?

[A]

Well, she. She wasn't a victim, but she knew four different victims in. In South Africa, and she was a South African lady.

[B]

What was her connection to Epstein? Did she have any connection or she just knew the victims?

[A]

No, no, she just. She. She had gone to some of these victims in South Africa, had gone to the same girls school that she had gone to.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. And so she. This one called her up and started talking to her before she talked to her mom. And she had been trafficked four times. Got in a plane four times from South Africa to go to New York. First time she goes to New York, she barely even gets to New York. And they take her directly to the island and she gets. And she gets taken to Paris. And then the last time she got taken to Zorro Ranch and Epstein didn't. There, she said that he gave her a. What she felt like was a pelvic exam. And then this survivor woke up in the middle of a. On a. On a medical table with, you know, medical instruments up above her. And this lady said, it's okay, just go back to sleep. And when she got back to South Africa, she had a wound here in her belly. And it seemed that they were looking at particular bloodlines and particular blood types and harvesting eggs and, you know, doing eugenics and transhumanism and baby farming and stuff like that. And this. This lady connected a whole bunch of these links. And then a little bit after she signed a contract with us, she started to get harassed. Her place got broken to. She got followed, and they got the electronic harassment. Got to be so much that her boyfriend went into jail. I mean, jail into hospital with auditory problems problems. And she finally had enough and just walked away from five years worth of work.

[B]

Okay, what kind of auditory problems?

[A]

That's all I. I heard.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Was told was. Was, you know, auditory. And. And this was a book that was going to, you know, it was going to sell well, it was going to do good for her because basically she was focusing on the scientists instead of the sex part of it all and.

[B]

Because, you know, the science of it.

[A]

Yeah, because Epstein, you know, wasn't just getting Girls and young women. He was getting, you know, all these scientists, okay, and paying money to have them to get together and paying money to, to Harvard for their brain stuff. And this is very similar to the MK Ultra type stuff because like I said, you know, they move, they gets moved around. And like, like one thing that she brought up in the book is how every girl, when they come into the Epstein's place, they're brought into the kitchen first and they're given a bottle of water, okay. And there's all kinds of things that you can put in water. Like. I can't say the word very well and, and, and different things. So, so. And then again, you have these girls and you can, you know, give them one thing and see what happens, give them another thing. So it's continuation of these, you know, MK Ultra type experiments there too. So.

[B]

Yeah, and there's those emails with him and Peggy Siegel. Peggy Siegel is like the famous New York PR lady, Hollywood lady, where he's emailing her saying, I need you to help me find my next baby mama. Where he's clearly trying to have children, right? And she's advising him on how to do it. She's like, oh, you gotta find some, you know, you gotta find a girl who isn't gonna get entitled or isn't gonna get emotionally attached and all this stuff. Just sick.

[A]

Well, the, the whole thing is, is, is, is rather sick, don't you think? And you know, to go back to your question about how did they, you know, Epstein. Well, you know, his, his, his dad? Well, no, that was, that was Barr's dad, wasn't it? Yeah, that was, that was Donald Barr.

[B]

Yeah, Donald Barr.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And roughly 5,000 emails between Peggy Siegel and Epstein sent between 202009 and 2019. Could you imagine having 5,000 emails with one person? I don't know if you do. I mean, I, I don't have a thousand emails with one person. I don't think. Yeah, she represented Spielberg, Weinstein, Barry Levinson, Seal opened up about what she gained from her association with Epstein, who died by suicide in 2019. Sure. Epstein's still alive. You know that, right?

[A]

Well, you know, I, I hear people tell me that, you know, I mean, we did a thing in LA with Sherry, Seymour and Hopsicker, and at the end somebody came in said, kurt Cobain's still alive and all these people are all alive and whatnot. I mean, again, yeah, it sets up dissonance, you know, and stuff. I mean, it's, it's. Again, it's part and Parcel of dividing and conquering and, you know, and creating dissidents. Because they don't want us to all be on the same page and understand the distraction.

[B]

Right. Whether he's alive or not, it doesn't change the fact that we know the truth about him. Right.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

You want to. You want to create his job. That makes sense, but it is just crazy. The. The prostate email. The email with the doctor about going over his blood work and his medications and all that. And he's like. Because the doctor's like, in the email, you don't have a prostate. Right, right. And Jeff, she responds, correct. And in his official autopsy report, they inspected his prostate and it was impeccable. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Well, you know, I mean, you know,

[B]

is that some sort of weird limited hangout or is that just. Is that insane evidence that he's still alive? You know, it's bonkers.

[A]

You know, I. I mean, I don't know. And, and, and. And really can't know. Okay. And, and. And again, creates dissonance and creates. Creates it so that we're. We're fighting. Well, is Epstein alive or not?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Not. Not what they. Not what he did and what all happened to us, you know?

[B]

Yeah, and the Zorro Ranch thing, I think they just started to investigate that.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Yeah, that's the one that was kind of been on the back burner. No one ever paid attention to that one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, the. The FBI told them don't. Don't look into there. Told, you know, they were. The people in New Mexico were going to look into it, and they told him not to. Yeah, and I mean. And there's underground things there.

[B]

Well, the new owner is turning it into a church. It's gonna bring. That's where Jesus is going to come back when he returns to Zorro Ranch.

[A]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Well, I. I hope we get pictures, you know. Yeah, but. Yeah, no, they're. The, the thing around the. The Zorro Ranch, I mean, it's got underground facilities to it. It's got, you know, some very strong communication links there, you know, and then it's in between, you know, the Trinity site and, and all these what they say are dumbs down there and the aliens and. And all that crap, you know, So I Mean, how many rabbit holes you want to go down?

[B]

Yeah. Are you into the alien rabbit hole or no? Are you checked out on that one? Well, I'm kind of over that one.

[A]

I, I, you know, I, I do think that, you know, it's a big universe and there's a good chance that there's other people out there. Okay.

[B]

But I think we got them, though. You think we captured them? You think we did a deal with them? That's the question.

[A]

Well, you know, when you start to, I mean, you know, I've been looking at conspiracy literature for a long time. Okay, I know you have. So I, you know, I've got a whole, whole bunch of UFO books and, you know, read a lot of. And the funny thing is, is you end up with a lot of spooks. Okay. When you go into theirs and then.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then, you know the crazy thing about, well, we, we got transistors from that thing in Roswell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you can track that history down. That ain't true. Okay. And them saying that we got Velcro from that thing too, you can track that down. And that's not true.

[B]

It's not true that we got Velcro out of it. That was. So the two guys who wrote the book the day after Roswell, Corso, was that one of them?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the other guy threw in the duck. The, not the duct tape, the Velcro, which allegedly was fake. Right. There was no Velcro found there. You know. How familiar are you with Jock Jacques Valle?

[A]

Oh, not a lot. You know, he was basically one of the guys that they use for the, you know, close encounters of the third kind. Yeah, you know, he was, he was there and he, you know, he talks about, you know, a lot of the UFOs could be, you know, psychotic type

[B]

things and, and things and, you know, that's interesting, right? I've never heard that before until, I mean, I haven't read, I haven't read any of his books yet. But I had Peter Lend on here recently and he was explaining to me, I was asking him like, I'm like, if you were the CIA and you wanted to figure out what ufo, what the phenomenon was, I'm like, what? How would you figure that out? And he was like, he goes, if I was in charge of the CIA and I want to figure out exactly what it was, I would go hunt down all of the ex experiencers or abductees, and I would study and dissect their minds to the deepest possible way I could to figure out what it was, he thinks the secret to the phenomenon is buried in the human psyche or something like that.

[A]

Well, it's been shown, you know, I can't remember which one, but that they were, you know, parts of mind control experiments. Some of these have been shown to Ben, and it's a. You know, I mean, let's look in the Bible. Let me see. We got all kinds of beings in the Bible. Yeah. You know, cherubim, seraphim, all these.

[B]

This lady, Diana Pasulka, the religious studies expert who wrote that, she wrote a couple recent books. Anyways, Jacques Valle was one of her main sources for her first book, which was why is the name of that? American Cosmic was her first book. And she went to Jacques Filet's home in San Francisco and she was looking through his library and they were talking and all this stuff, and he had this incredible personal library of books about archangels and demons and stuff like that. And he handed her this book and said, if you really want to understand the UFO phenomenon, you have to read this book. She took the book, and it was called the History of Satan, and it had 666 pages and it was all French. And she actually sent it to me. We should show this. Steve, I'm going to send you because. Because me and Kurt Metzger were looking for this the other day on the podcast, and Diana sent me a picture of it. The book of Satan, of the actual book that we were searching for. This is the COVID of it, and it was. I spent forever trying to find it. I just sent it to you on airdrop.

[A]

Steve, your mind always makes the. Up something that you, you know, if you can't understand something, it'll. It'll. It'll show.

[B]

It'll fill in the gaps. Yeah, yeah. This is the book. So if anybody out there watching or listening has ever come across this book, or if you ever come across this book, let us know, because we want to find it and we want to translate it into English. See if you can actually find. Do some more research on that, Steve. See what you can find. So, yeah, I mean, the Bible is, you know, full of crazy stories that sound like UFOs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, a wheel within a wheel and all that kind of stuff, you know, and. Well, let me see. There's a bunch of people there on that mountain. A bunch of them. Go away. I found it.

[B]

We would have to get AI to translate it for us. It's in French, right?

[A]

50. Shipping and handling. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

That's worth it. Yeah, I believe it is in French.

[A]

All. All of this is. Yeah. Wait, can I translate

[B]

whatever crazy stuff, man?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So back to that woman who wrote the butterfly. Was it something about the butterfly that I've seen, Lady?

[A]

Yeah, it was Sarah McCarthy. Sarah McCarthy, called Blue Butterfly, based on the. Juliet Bryant was the survivor, and she had a diary that had a blue butterfly on it that she had taken with her. And. And she had allowed Sarah to copy it and read it. And. And so that was the title of the book. And that I found it interesting that Virginia Griffey and other, you know, the butterflies kind of become a symbol for the Epstein survivors. And then earlier, you know, you had, like, the. The Monarch program here, supposedly.

[B]

Yeah. The. Is it called MK Monarch or something like that? Right.

[A]

Is off of the puppet. It comes from a puppetry name kind of in. In German.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What.

[A]

What.

[B]

What is the background of that?

[A]

Well, again, it's. It's. It's a program where they are getting children when they're very, very young. Okay. And traumatizing them and. And creating altars.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And then, you know, using that as a. As a. As a mechanism. As a. As a. As a control mechanism. And Springmire. Fritz Springmire was. He wrote a lot about it. And I know Fritz. He's from Oregon, too. And you've got to take Fritz's work with a grain of salt, always, because. And he even talks about there. He says, I just find this stuff, and I throw it up in the air and see what happens, because I was. I became friends with a person that Fritz said had been murdered, and he wasn't murdered. So. So you have to be careful with. With Fritz's work. But there's. There's a lot of good stuff in there.

[B]

Yeah. Was it. Was it Virginia. Virginia Giuffre, who did the. The portrait of all the people in Epstein's life? The crazy portrait that was in the documentary that had Wexner with, like, the middle there.

[A]

Seems to me there's. There's another one of the survivors that has become a big painter.

[B]

Yeah. What is the famous painting from the Epstein victim? I think it was Virginia. Virginia Roberts, maybe.

[A]

No, I can't remember the name. Sorry.

[B]

See if you can find the. The painting, Steve. It's got Wexner's head in the middle of it, like a demon. But it was crazy because it was really interesting how Wexner was the center, the central figure in all of it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There it is on the top left, I believe. Yeah, that's It. He's the head of the snake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's just a little piece of it, Steve. There's the big. There's the big one.

[A]

Yeah, it's Maria Farmer.

[B]

Maria Farmer. Right, right, right. Oh, you can only find a tiny photo of it. Yeah. It's linked to a Facebook account. There's got to be a better way to find it other than Facebook, bro. You're not going to find in the comments. Yeah, there you go. Oh, God. Anyways, so did we land on the moon? I don't think so. What do you think?

[A]

You know, I. I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

Look at that. There's a full. There's a full panorama of it in its cool. In its glory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you got Ghislaine Maxwell's a dinosaur. And you have Leslie Wexner. He's like a peacock. And his head is connected to the underworld. Where you got. Looks like Bezos there. I don't know who that guy is. I'm. I'm assuming these are all, like, political folks or billionaires. Is that Trump right there?

[A]

It looks like on tv. Or is that Clinton?

[B]

That's Clinton on tv. Look at that. Oh, my God. That's the face. Holy. That's the face of Clinton during. See if this was what year this was painted, because that looks just like the face. Facial expression Clinton made during the 2016 debate when Trump paraded all of those women, did the press conference with all the women that accused Clinton of rape. You remember that during the 2016 debates.

[A]

Paula Jones.

[B]

Yeah. And he. And he literally said that on the debate on the debate stage with Hillary on national TV in front of probably the biggest audience on television history. And it goes to Clinton's face, right. When Trump says that. And these are guys that used to be friends before that. They were friends leading up to this. Right. And then Trump basically burns the bridge permanently forever during that debate. Right. And now, how strange is it that you have. Now that these files come out, Trump is going, I really like Bill. I don't want to see him get hurt in any of this stuff. I think he's innocent. And then you have Clinton during his deposition doing the same thing. I think Trump's innocent. Crazy. And who is that up on top? Who are the angels? Oh, my God. Go to the right.

[A]

Wait.

[B]

What a crazy photo. I would like to see an analysis. Oh, look at the owl. I would love to see an analysis of, like, who all the. The different people are in this anyways. Yeah. The moon. Yeah. What do you think? You went to the moon.

[A]

You know, I, I, I don't know. And my, my big why I really wonder about it, okay, is, you know, supposedly there was this big alchemical operation, okay, to control the world, okay? And, you know, first was to destroy primordial matter, okay? The killing of the King. And then bringing the stars back to Earth. You had to do those three things, okay? Destroying primordial matter was the atomic bomb at the Trinity site on the 33rd degree parallel, okay? The killing of the king is. Killing of Kennedy King kill right next to the Trinity river, okay? 33rd degree, okay? And then the bringing the star stars back to Earth was supposedly bringing the moon rocks back to Houston, okay? So if, if they didn't go to the moon, okay, that last part they didn't complete, okay? And they used, you know, subterfuge to say that we did, you know, So, I mean.

[B]

Subterfuge? What do you mean,

[A]

lying?

[B]

I, I, I, I, I'm a community college dropout.

[A]

Sorry. Okay. I didn't, I didn't graduate my college myself. I started to record record store subterfuge. You know, underhanded dealing, you know, basically trying to, you know, saying, hey, yeah, we, we did it, you know, but,

[B]

you know, so you got to manipulate matter. You got to bring a star back to Earth and what else?

[A]

Killing of the king.

[B]

Kill the king.

[A]

Right, right. Those were the three things.

[B]

Oh, that explains why there's a whole. I just learned a couple weeks ago that there's a conspiracy theory out there that nukes aren't real, that they're fake.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's.

[B]

Are you familiar with that one?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that, that comes from a old, older book. And he basically, he's not saying that nukes aren't fake. He's saying that nukes only work at particular times. Huh. Is. Is what it says. And it, it's a pretty crazy book,

[B]

but what is the basis of it? Why would they only work at certain times?

[A]

You know, I don't remember. I read that book. Book. Lord have Mercy. Probably 30 years ago.

[B]

What was it? You remember the title?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, I, I could find it out for you and get it back and then.

[B]

Okay, so to kill the king, bring a star back, and to manipulate matter. What happens if you do all that?

[A]

You're supposed to be able to rule the world.

[B]

You rule the world according to who?

[A]

This came out from James Shelby Downward. Okay. And if you. James Shelby Downward was the first guy that came out with the whole king kill 33 type.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thing. Okay. And that was first printed in. Oh, Adam Perfect Feral House, one of the Feral House books, Secret and Suppressed or something like that. And he's done a couple books out of he. See, basically James Shelby Downer was one of the little kids that was used in Masonic rituals and where he started, started learning about that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, he's, he's got some wild books out. He, he, he's, he's since passed.

[B]

Are you familiar with this whole Pax Judaica end times prophecy?

[A]

No,

[B]

it's a wild one. Basically the theory is, I'm sure you've seen the recent news stories about how there were a bunch of people in the military, about 14, I think it was 14 different branches of the military filed public complaints to the ARM or to another branch of the military, basically saying that their commanders in their military units were telling them and they all had the same stories and all these different complaints across the military that in. For the Iran war, that their commanders said to them that Trump was anointed by Jesus to bring the return of Christ or something, something along these lines. This was like a biblical holy war that's commanded by the Bible or something like this.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, I, I heard about that. I, you know, I, I don't know a lot about it. I mean, it sounds something like he would, I mean, he just said that, you know, for Jesus you have to make the save act happen. I mean, I, I find it rather, I don't know if you want to go as far as blasphemy, but it's, it's, it's pretty out there.

[B]

Pretty crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, I mean, if he's doing that to bring Christ back, where's the Antichrist?

[B]

So that's the thing. So that, so that's the whole Pax Judaica theory. So this, this Pax Judaica conspiracy theory is basically that the Israeli government is trying to cause chaos around the world by doing this Iran war war, creating this religious holy war between Muslims and Christians and, and the Jews. And by doing all this, they will bring back the Antichrist by creating all this chaos, starting all these wars everywhere and also intentionally stoking anti Semitism at the same time, which is happening. You have the, you have, you know, different. If you go online, basically you can't escape it. That's people, there's, there's low IQ Jew hate and there's actual legitimate criticism of the Israeli government. And the idea is if they are doing that intentionally, which it kind of seems like they are, they could encourage the Diaspora to All move to Israel where they could be safe. And if they get the Diaspora to go back to the Holy Land and at the same time bring back the Antichrist, they will bring in. They were usher in the Messianic, Messianic age somehow. And this is the whole Pax Judaic, I think I'm missing a couple elements.

[A]

You know, Hitler was gonna, you know, there's gonna be a thousand year Reich and I mean.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

This is something that goes down through history. All, you know, you have different, different things saying, you know, well, we do this, the, you know, Lord's gonna bless us or whatnot or, or, or Messiah and different. I mean, I've got a writer. Well, I mean, I don't have. He's. I published some of his books. Chris Bennett. Okay. He mostly writes about.

[B]

We just talked to Chris Bennett.

[A]

Yeah, we interviewed him.

[B]

Yeah, we just talked to him.

[A]

Yeah, about, about cannabis. But he's done a big, big, A lot of study about apocalypse.

[B]

And, and yeah, he's been looking into

[A]

all this stuff and, and the, you know, I mean, apocalypse means every, everything known. And then Armageddon means, you know, a big, big, massive war. I'd rather see apocalypse where, where everything is known rather than, than Armageddon myself. But again, you know, it comes down from, from choices. Okay, that, that people made. Now, you know, you asked me earlier about secret societies, and one of them I mentioned was chabad.

[B]

Oh, yes, chabad. We never covered that.

[A]

And you know, chabad is basically a

[B]

Shabbat Lubovitch or something.

[A]

It's basically a sect that they all comes back to a particular city. And I think it's in Belarus. Okay. And you have to be from that particular city to be a leader in it. Yeah. And you find these, you know, these people all around Putin, and you also find them all around Netanyahu down. And so, yeah, I do. I think that these people are using geopolitical games to play games with people.

[B]

I mean, you know, their religious ideologies.

[A]

I mean, Netanyahu would be in jail if he wasn't president. Good, good chance that Trump would be in jail if he wasn't president too, you know.

[B]

So why would Trump be in jail again?

[A]

Well, let me see, he had this thing down here in Florida that they, they stopped about, you know, him having classified information and whatnot. And then, I mean, yeah, they've been

[B]

trying to put him in jail.

[A]

Yeah, he is a adjudicated felon, you know, 30, 34 felons. You know, you do go to jail for what were the 34 felonies falsifying business records among.

[B]

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, yeah. And then there was the whole, the whole Russiagate thing was debunked, though. That was all a political, Wasn't debunked. It was a Hillary Clinton scam. She was, she was pulling off an operation.

[A]

No, it wasn't. The, the first people to pay for that thing were actually Republicans. Okay. They dropped it. Okay. And then Hillary started paying that again. But that's just, you know, that's opposition research and stuff. And it, it's really, I mean, if you, I, I, I definitely think that there are people that have blackmailable stuff on Trump, one of them being Putin and the other ones being Netanyahu. Okay.

[B]

How dare you say that?

[A]

How dare I say. Well, it's quite in our face, really.

[B]

I know, but nobody wants to, no one wants to say it. Even the, like, hardcore. The people that supported Trump the most during this recent election are criticizing the hell out of everything he's doing, but they'll walk right up to the line of saying that Trump himself is implicated in it. They won't touch it, you know? Well, it's just like, well, wow, we have this country the size of New Jersey in the Middle east that we'll do bend over backwards for, and there's this invisible sort of something that exists. There's, they have this invisible leverage that we cannot identify. What is it?

[A]

Well, they've been giving a lot of money to people.

[B]

People, you know, and, yeah, but, like, still, like, they can't control the president, you know.

[A]

Well, it's called One Nation Under Black Man.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

You know, exactly. And, and I mean, really doesn't, you know, take a lot to, to understand the perfidy that's going on? Okay. And I mean, the.

[B]

What, what's the word you used?

[A]

Profit.

[B]

Profitity. Okay.

[A]

Okay. And the, so the whole vote thing, I mean, hopsicker who used to live here in Florida did a thing, you know, about vote voting machines and how. Oh, he was working in Louisiana and I mean, and they showed, you know. Well, you press here and you say you're voting for here, but actually the vote goes to here. Okay. To the other person. So, I mean, there's been ways of stealing the vote here for quite a while. Yeah. Okay. Mob has been a lot behind it. Okay. Because, you know, the, the mob is at the situation where, oh, let me see, this guy likes prostitutes. Oh, this guy. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. I mean, they've been using the blackmail card for a long, long Time. Okay, so.

[B]

Oldest one in the book.

[A]

And so there's no reason that we can't have honest elections. Okay. I mean, we have the digital capability right now. Okay. Of having honest elections, knowing, you know, who. Who voted how. I mean, you know, we could be doing, you know, digital federal voting. You know, we could. We could be doing things like that.

[B]

Yeah, but doesn't that just open the door up for more fraud?

[A]

Not if you put enough eyes on it. Not if you put enough eyes on it. Okay. You can get. If you get, you know.

[B]

Yeah, but what eyes. That's the whole thing. How do you know?

[A]

You know, have. Have some of them elected, have some of them just chosen, you know, have it. Have it done by. By a lottery, you know, or. Or different things. But if you get it, you get enough eyes, okay? We. We've got the ability to understand. I mean, how do they track these people down for child, all this stuff? It's not because they're walking around with little signs that say, I like child. Right. You know, they're able to, you know, look in their email box or something like that and. And figure things out. So, I mean, we, you know, there is the technology out to have a country that isn't, you know, susceptible to blackmail and susceptible to a lot of things. We could have an honest country. We really could, but we have to, you know, put up.

[B]

I don't know, man. I think that the people who are interested in leading people are inherently. They have some sort of something built into their psyche where they're just going to do whatever they can to serve their own personal interests.

[A]

Pick the jobs by lottery.

[B]

Sociopathy.

[A]

Pick the jobs by lottery.

[B]

Yeah. Like the ancient Greeks did. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, we're doing this book called the Psychopathology of Totalitarianism. Okay. You know, and what is. It's a sickness that these people bring to want to have, you know, absolute control and control over everybody. And, you know, that's not what this country was built upon. And, you know, there's. There's people that, you know, oh, want to say, oh, well, we can't have multiculturalism. We can't. Well, you know, we've had multiculturalism in this country ever since it began. Mm. You know, and we ought to listen to the Indians, too. The Indians have a lot of nice things, the American Indians. And. And the Indian Indians have a lot of nice things to say. I mean, there's. There's so much that we can learn from lots of different people. There's this old prophecy about how there's the five races and they come to a table and they each have something to bring to the table for us to learn how to be humanity. And I think that's true. You know, there's a lot that we can learn to make our country a better place. Okay. And there's no reason that we have to put up with all this crap and bs. There really isn't. Okay. Except these guys, you know, want to push it down. You know, I have these conversations with some. Them lefties, I guess they are, or whatnot, but because it's my contention, my posit, okay, is that we have this secret societal system that's up here. Okay. Your next solid level is sovereign countries. Okay. And in between, the secret societal level.

[B]

So wait, so wait, Jeffrey Epstein's in the secret society level?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, because in the secret societal level,

[B]

because I always thought there was a separate. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I always thought there was a distinction between the Jeffrey Epstein layer and then the bankers layer, like the Rothschilds.

[A]

Well, you've got the secret societal level. Your next solid level is. Is the sovereign countries. And in between this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've got intelligence agencies.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Religious organizations, fraternal organizations, criminal organizations. Okay. And then they're able to, you know, go down into the sovereign countries and they don't have to affect everybody in that, but just maybe one or two people and get it to go to the direction that they want.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then you have the situation where these secret societies are not bound to a country. Okay. They'll trash their own country if it, if it, if it serves the goals of the secret societal system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So it's a.

[B]

So it's almost not like anarchy. Right. It's not just nation states for them, because the idea of all these nation states just competing for power is sort of like. Is sort of like anarchy at the highest level. But if, if it's true what you're saying, that there are this globally governing order of secret societies that are manipulating the nation states. That's crazy. That's like a, that's like a, a, that's like a 4D level of order.

[A]

Well, you know, and, and I mean, they don't have, as you know it, solid control in every country, but they.

[B]

Right, right, right. They just try to move the needle like they.

[A]

As much as they can, you know, and through the intelligence agencies and the criminal gangs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That gives them, you know, a lot of power and a lot of, you know, insight. Okay. As to. Well, let me see. What person in this country do I want? Well, this guy, you know, he really likes to. To go to the prostitutes all the time, blah, blah. You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And different things. So. So. But I have this conversation with these people because it's my posit that the secret societal system imposes itself upon the sovereign countries, which then imposes upon us people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And they're saying that the dynamic isn't. That's not the dynamic. The dynamic is just class warfare there. It's just, you know, us with pitchforks. Okay. And the people up here trying to, you know, stay being the people up there. Okay. But to me, it's a lot more organized than just people saying, oh, I want to be the rich person I want to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's. I mean, they're. They're imposing their will. Okay. And. And, you know, they'll use, you know, people. People like Trump, because, I mean, he. He's an easy mark. You know, you can. You can.

[B]

Which level is he on, by the way? Because he seems to be. Have his foot in both worlds, kind of.

[A]

Well, again, would you play a little game? Call. I call it the catbird seed.

[B]

The cat bird seed. Okay.

[A]

Okay. Let's say that this does exist. This secret societal organization up there exists. Okay. Let's say you're the guy running it. You're the. You're the cat bird. Okay. What would you do? How would. How would you run things?

[B]

How would I run things?

[A]

How would you. What would you do?

[B]

I would try to, like. Yeah. I would try to make sure that my bloodline survives and that I have a way to escape the earth when apocalypse finally happens and make sure the world doesn't burn.

[A]

Right. And you have all these rich people buying bunkers and everything, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and, you know, I mean,

[B]

this is one of the things that Katherine Fitz talks about.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you. If you actually had a large scale nuclear exchange. Okay. How long you got to be in a bunker?

[B]

Long time.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so.

[B]

But the people that will survive the longest are the guys that are in the nuclear submarines. They would be there until they ran out of water or food.

[A]

There a book about that

[B]

probably, right? What book are you talking about?

[A]

On the Beach. Something like that. I don't know.

[B]

I don't even know that book.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, what's the name of it?

[A]

On the Beach.

[B]

It's just called on the Beach.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And. But, yeah, so again, I, you know, I. I just really see that, you know, that's what we're up against is, is a secret societal system that is using those different levels to, to screw with our sovereign countries that then screws with us. Okay, so

[B]

what would you do if you were the one that ran the secret societies?

[A]

I doubt I'd out him.

[B]

How would you do that? Go on a podcast?

[A]

Sure. Put them on. No one believe it. Put everything out.

[B]

Believe you.

[A]

Right. Well, you know, that's what I told my dad. Okay. You know, because he told me, he says, you know, I, I, I, you know, I couldn't tell you for 10 years and well, actually I didn't tell him that. I, but I thought about it later on because, you know, he told me and I was his son and I didn't believe him. Right. You know, so, so, so, because I, I, I got to thinking, I said, you know, if dad had talked, it wouldn't have made any difference because nobody would have believed him anyway. You know, And I mean, I've been talking about the secret societal system now for Lord have mercy. Good. 26 years, not longer. Okay. And I mean, when I first started talking about it, there was very few people I could even talk to. And then I found that the people that I could talk to that we could, you know, have some understandings were people that had a wide view of something, okay? Had, had a wide view and could see, you know, the different changes. But, you know, there's no reason why we, the people cannot be in charge, okay? There's no reason to have these other folks in charge. I mean, you know, our, our money and you know, that was one of the, you know, after the Spanish American War and they got their hooks into us real deep, okay? That was one of the things that they did. They said, oh, well, let me see, let's get an income tax, okay? Which isn't really a, wasn't a tax on wages, okay? And then, oh, well, we'll get fake money. Okay, The Federal Reserve. Oh, well, once you got that in place, what do you do? Well, you get the people in debt, okay? World War I, okay? And then World War II. And in World War II, they did a thing, they said, oh, we got to beat them Japs and Huns, you know, we gotta, and we're gonna have a, a victory tax, okay? And you know what? We aren't even going to make you lick a stamp. We're going to go directly to your employer and grab it, okay? That's where withholding started, okay? And what that did, because before then, about 20% of the American population paid income tax because the income tax isn't on wages, okay? But they keep dumbing us down. They keep dumbing us down, okay? And so once they got withholding in it was about, about 60% of the population was, was paying. So they got a lot more money there to, to fiddle with, okay? And, and so these, these, these taxes and war and all of this stuff. I mean I do a thing round table with the Fitzgerald's, Paul, Paul and Liz Fitzgerald and Paul is a Fitzgerald of related to Honey Fitz, JFK's grandfather. And one thing that we found in there. Oh Lord, I'm getting, getting tired.

[B]

That's all right. We're almost done. You want to wrap it up?

[A]

Oh, let me see if I can remember this. Oh, well, we, we've been doing. Oh, we've. It's been based around JFK's peace speech that he gave it. I think it was June of 63 at American University. And you know, we live, we live on one planet planet. I mean, you know, we've had people go up in space and take pictures of it so we can see it allegedly. No, those are, those are quite real. They can you, you can, you can, you can, you can take, take, take a bank on that. And so, you know, we're all living on, on, on one planet, okay? So we, we need to learn to get along. And so the other thing that we discovered there was a guy by the name of Henry George, okay? He was like the second biggest speaker behind Mark Twain in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And he did a thing about land rents, okay. And it's basically a taxing thing that kind of, oh, makes capitalism a little bit more friendly, a little bit more moral, okay? And they buried him. They buried him. You know, Land rents. Yeah, land rents.

[B]

What was the, what was the basis of it?

[A]

It's about taking the money from you base the taxes on the land and its potential, okay? So when, like when a landlord just sits here and lets the, the apartment house go to heck and stuff like that, it's no advantage to them. And it, they've done it in, in some cities in Pennsylvania where cities have gone from being, you know, everything boarded up to a viable economy. They're starting to talk about it it in, in Maryland 1. They set up the whole part of Chicago University of Chicago by the Rockefellers economics to completely bury Henry George, okay? And a person does Google, they'll, they'll find out about it, but it's just an incredible thing. And so onwards to a better future for our children.

[B]

I agree. I hope. I hope we can do something like that. I love your optimistic outlook.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

And thank you for doing this.

[A]

My pleasure.

[B]

Tell people where they can find you and find your. Your publishing company, your. All the books that you publish and get a hold of you all that jazz.

[A]

Well, It's. It's trine day.com T-R-I-N-E-A-Y.com. we've got about 180 some books up there and been doing it for 26 years. Can't get a Wikipedia page. People have set up Wikipedia pages and they get taken down.

[B]

That's probably a good sign in the long run.

[A]

That's what. That's what people tell me. And, you know, and because it's been very interesting, the basic stance on our books is to ignore us. I mean, they tried the. The second book I did, expenditure Elite. I had to go to court in Charleston, South Carolina, because the Special Forces association said I had to declare this book fiction. This is written by a lieutenant colonel, the only lieutenant colonel I know that didn't graduate from high school. And it was about the Wahaus, which are a militant Buddhist sect in Vietnam. But my dad had been in Vietnam in 56, so I'd done a bunch of studies, so I knew the book was true. And so this hippie from Oregon and a lieutenant colonel from New York went to court in South Carolina and got a unanimous verdict. And so we got to publish the book as nonfiction. But it's been interesting. There's been lots of attempts to try and put us out of business. Business. But I'm a stubborn SOB and my mama was a very nice lady.

[B]

And you're still trucking, man.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

I love it. Well, thanks again for your time, man. This has been really fun.

[A]

Well, thank you. And I hope I wasn't too confusing.

[B]

No, you were great. We'll link all your stuff below. And that's it. Good night, folks.