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Danny Jones Podcast
#392 - CIA Scientist Deathbed Confession: NEW Files Expose Alien Contact | Andy Puharich
02:34:43
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- [00:00]
Andy Puharich
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Interviewer Danny
Pleasure to meet you, Greg. Good to see you again.
- [00:10]
Greg Phillips
Great to see you.
- [00:11]
Interviewer Danny
Your documentary is incredible. I just watched it for the second time this morning.
- [00:14]
Greg Phillips
Thanks.
- [00:15]
Interviewer Danny
Can you guys give us, or the people that are listening who may not know, a high level view of who your father was? Andrea Puhari.
- [00:24]
Andy Puharich
He should do that. He's actually more of an expert on my father than I am because he's done so much research.
- [00:30]
Greg Phillips
He was. Well, you know, he was a scientist first and foremost. He was a medical doctor. He went to Northwestern Medical School, had a medical degree. But he started researching psychic phenomena very early on in the mid-40s, because really, the Northwestern. When he was going to Northwestern, that was 46, 47, 48. And he was interested in that all the way back then. But he was just very early on interested in psychic phenomena, the brain, the possibilities of the human mind, what can be done. And so I think he was just a pioneer of esp, extrasensory perception research, and was doing experiments in that realm far before other people were. And of course, his life and everything he did, he went on to do way more than just ESP research. But he started.
- [01:23]
Interviewer Danny
He was working closely with Isak Bentov.
- [01:26]
Greg Phillips
Right.
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Interviewer Danny
He discovered Uri Geller. He was a part of the Stanford Reimbursement Research Institute. Sri. Yeah, yeah. He was connected to all these people. How put off.
- [01:38]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah. So he was very important and he had kind of had his tentacles.
- [01:44]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [01:44]
Greg Phillips
And all that stuff. But I think what's interesting about him is that he was never really, I guess, famous, you could say, in the sense that people don't know, you know, like, put off. And these other people are very known. They're. I mean, of course they're still alive and they're out there and they're talking. But Buhari is very, like, under. Underground, I guess you could say. I mean, of course, he became much more popular in the. In the 70s when his book on Uri Geller came out. But, yeah, he kind of had his fingers and everything, but he was still very like in the. In the shadows, I guess you could say. He was involved in, like, all this stuff from the very, very beginning, but he's not very known, you know, he's not like a. Like a household name by any means.
- [02:28]
Interviewer Danny
So curious. Out of curiosity, what was so significant about, like, why were all these guys spending so much time in Israel? Because your Uri Geller came from Israel. And there was a moment where, in the film where your dad. Andre. Andrea. Andrea, yeah, Andrea Puharich. He says he was leaving Israel. And they took a bunch of his stuff, right?
- [02:52]
Andy Puharich
Well, initially, I think my dad was doing research on many people. And before Uri, he was researching this guy called Arigo, who was a Brazilian healer. And Arigo suddenly died, which was terrible. And then research stopped and my dad was looking for a new research subject. Then he heard of this guy in Israel called Uri, Uri Geller. So some say that the CIA sent him on a mission to go investigate. I've always thought that he just did it on his own curiosity, but he went out there and, you know, went to see one of Uri's shows. Uri was doing performances, you know, showing his mental capabilities. And so he just went to a show. They got to meet. He did some experiments in a hotel, set up some, you know, some simple experiments to see if. If Uri was genuine. And he found he was in those small, you know, little things he set up. And then I think the story you're referring to is then he left and the Mossad got interested and they started following him or whatever, you know, so. But basically he discovered Uri and he took him back to the States to have him researched at Stanford University, where, you know, under lab conditions, they did tests to see if he was genuine, which, you know, allegedly. Yeah, he was positive.
- [04:25]
Interviewer Danny
He said something like, I've seen you do stuff that any magician could do, but we want to test this under, like, scientific conditions or something.
- [04:33]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you want to have it foolproof, you know. Yeah. So there's no cheating with cameras and all kinds of monitoring. And so. And that's basically when, you know, Uri's career started. And unfortunately, that is what Uri thought it was, was a career as a superstar is what he wanted to be. Of course, my dad was more interested in the scientific aspect of it all.
- [05:04]
Greg Phillips
To your point, though, about why in Israel? I think, you know, Annie Jacobson, our mutual friend, she brought up the idea that the Israelis were much more open to the sort of spiritual aspect of this type of research, whereas maybe here in the US they weren't as open to that, because, you know, Buharich at that time was very interested in getting into the nine, of course, and the channeling stuff. And I think someone like Bentoff, who is really like the Israeli equivalent of Puharich, in a way, they were very similar. So I think he found a more open world there to explore the stuff that he was really interested in, that Bentoff was interested in. Whereas here people were just way more closed minded to that stuff when it came to the, the channeling and the more far out aspects of that. So I think that. And that Annie, you know, theorized that as well as that's maybe why he was going there all the time, just to like have fellow researchers who were more open minded.
- [06:08]
Interviewer Danny
And Bentov was an Israeli citizen, right?
- [06:10]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [06:11]
Andy Puharich
Okay.
- [06:11]
Greg Phillips
And an intelligence asset and.
- [06:13]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, of course.
- [06:14]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [06:15]
Interviewer Danny
Have you, I mean, have you read his book, Stock in the Wild Pendulum? It is so complex, complicated and hard to understand. I had to listen to it twice. He, the dude is just so smart.
- [06:24]
Greg Phillips
It's.
- [06:25]
Interviewer Danny
It's like the dude, he's clearly, he's like. He's seeing fractals. The guy's like, seeing that like normal people can't see. And the way he describes like human like, resonance, like the resonance of the human heart and the human brain and like these higher levels of like the soul and like the higher consciousness and how we're all raisins in this bowl of jello. And like, if one raisin is vibrating at a frequency, they're all eventually going to start vibrating in that frequency, like.
- [06:56]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [06:57]
Andy Puharich
Does he. Is that a scientific approach he has?
- [07:02]
Interviewer Danny
I guess, yeah. You call it that. I mean, he had like, in his book, he includes these diagrams and these examples of, of how like everything in reality, this higher reality is resonating down to like our base reality. And there's certain protocols you can use to kind of like expand your consciousness to, to more. Essentially, it's kind of like a, a more complex version of the, the whole brain filter hypothesis. Right. Like our senses are just filtering out all the stuff that's out there. Right. Just so we can survive and get through the day and procreate and survive. But yeah, no, it's just super. It's super. It's super fascinating that, that he was working so closely with your dad and with Uri Geller and all these guys. And then mysteriously in like the 70s, I think he died in a plane crash. Right?
- [07:53]
Greg Phillips
79.
- [07:54]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [07:54]
Greg Phillips
But what's interesting, backing up, and this is something I discovered during the whole process of the film, like Puhara, there's this big question mark of why did Geller come to the United States? Because as you said, and as your dad said, there was some organization like a parapsychology organization that sort of got him a ticket and he went just to investigate Uri. Uri says he's positive that the CIA sent Buharich, but in fact, I'm pretty sure it was Bentoff who originally tipped off Buharich to Geller. Because in the archives, there's photographs of very early experiments with Geller where they're clearly in Bentoff's living room.
- [08:38]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [08:39]
Greg Phillips
Because he didn't even know that Puharich, Geller and Bentoff, they're doing experiments. There's Geller on a table with, like, a big black sheet over his eyes and some weird, I don't know, monitor device or something. So this was really early on, and
- [08:57]
Andy Puharich
you're saying this is before Uri came to States.
- [09:01]
Greg Phillips
And I think at one point, Buhari, in a journal or something, indicates that Bentov was the one who said, hey, there's this guy here. You got to come see him. And that was the original connection. But Bentov is very known Israeli intelligence, like, very.
- [09:17]
Interviewer Danny
Even back then.
- [09:18]
Greg Phillips
Yes, but even before, because this was 72, I think these pictures are from. But he was involved in this group of Israeli scientists who were very, very connected to intelligence in, like, the 60s. Like the mid-60s or something. There's an interesting book that Bentoff's daughter wrote about him, and it gets into all of this, really. He was, like, extremely. And what's interesting to me is later on in Buharich's life, in the 90s, when he was, you know, older, he. He was kind of talking trash about Bentoff, and he was some conference, and somebody in the audience asked him about his connection to Bentoff, and he was kind of, like, laughed it off and. And made some sort of joke about how he was insignificant or something. So I don't know if there was some weird something happened between them, but. No, he was super connected. That guy bent off for sure.
- [10:13]
Andy Puharich
That is strange.
- [10:14]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Yeah.
- [10:15]
Interviewer Danny
I wonder why that was.
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Greg Phillips
I don't know. I don't know.
- [10:20]
Andy Puharich
Same field of interest.
- [10:22]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. But there's a tape, too, that we have of Puharich at Bentoff's apartment in Tel Aviv.
- [10:30]
Andy Puharich
Audio tape.
- [10:31]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. And they were just kind of sitting, talking like we are, and they just had a cassette, and they were just talking about, like you said, all this stuff in his book, things like this. But they were mostly talking about Geller and how they could sort of utilize his talents and what he. What could be possible. And, you know, all this stuff about could his mind trigger the. The root of a seed to grow and these sorts of things. But gets back to your point, I mean, these guys were clearly super intelligent. They're not just these, you know, wacko guys sitting around talking about Geller like, they were really, like, high.
- [11:07]
Interviewer Danny
Are you convinced that he can really bend spoons and it wasn't magic like, are you convinced, like, telekinesis is, like a real thing? Like, there's some real thing happening there where he can look at a spoon and. And rub it, Rub the air around it and make the thing bend? Like, is that. Are you guys both convinced about this?
- [11:25]
Andy Puharich
It's a very good question, because I'm not totally convinced. Yeah, I know it exists. I do think it exists. The interesting thing is there was this one point where Uri was doing a show in England, it's very famous, and he asked people, you know, on television, he asked people at home to pick up spoons and, you know, see if they could bend them as well. And the telephones at the BBC exploded because it was all these. And especially young kids who were suddenly doing this. And that was so interesting because they were just being triggered by Uri. And, hey, listen, I'm sure he was able to, you know, to do it at some point in his life. I'm pretty sure he was not sure if he. If he kept that power, you know, And I think maybe there was some trickery involved later on. That's my belief.
- [12:25]
Interviewer Danny
Didn't you say you met with him? Yeah, not that long ago.
- [12:28]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Well, my. To add to your point, there is the same show in. In England in the mid-70s, and I think you know about this. One of the things he did, apparently, was in inside a wristwatch. He claimed that the, you know, minute hand was going to bend and it. And it did. And this guy had a wristwatch on, and they clearly hold it, like, right up to the camera, right inside the watch. And the minute hand is like. You can find this. I think it's on YouTube, is bent. So it's things like that that. I mean, that's such an intricate trick to, like, pre do, you know? And even back then in the 70s with live TV, like, they clearly didn't stop. I mean, it's a whole, you know, running show. So that was really strange. I don't know how you would.
- [13:15]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, you would do that.
- [13:16]
Interviewer Danny
There's mentalists out there, like Oz Perlman, that can do crazy shit like that. Like, you saw that he went on. On Joe Rogan's podcast, like, guessed his PIN number on his credit card. You see, Joe was freaking out, like, no idea what was going on.
- [13:28]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:29]
Interviewer Danny
There's some crazy sh. Can pull off with magic.
- [13:31]
Andy Puharich
And.
- [13:31]
Interviewer Danny
And he. Like, guys like that, those mentalist people, they tell you, like, this is all. Like, this is. This is not magic. Like, we have these crazy tricks where we can do this stuff.
- [13:41]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, Right. Everything is possible. Everything's been done by magicians.
- [13:44]
Interviewer Danny
Right, Exactly.
- [13:45]
Andy Puharich
There's always. It's, you know, it's really hard. And, you know, we were talking about this earlier when we were there, when we did this interview with Uri, and at the end, he did a spoon bend session where we're out in a parking lot. And the thing about it is, Uri would always, you know, if he wanted to go bend a spoon, he would create a whole bunch of distraction. You know, he would walk away and he would, you know, be distracting people, and then he would bend the spoon. And I was always a little bit suspicious about that. Yeah.
- [14:19]
Greg Phillips
Going like, look, see, that's the apartment I grew up in as a kid. And that window, that's. I used to look out that window and, you know.
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Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
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Greg Phillips
Really?
- [14:27]
Andy Puharich
But then he walks away, and it's like somewhere behind a car and he's doing it. It's like. Yeah, well, you know.
- [14:32]
Interviewer Danny
You didn't call him out on that.
- [14:34]
Greg Phillips
I did.
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Interviewer Danny
What the are you doing, Ari? Just bend the spoon, would you?
- [14:38]
Greg Phillips
Well, to answer your question, yes, he. He did do it. And my thought is I just simply did.
- [14:43]
Interviewer Danny
After he walked behind a car.
- [14:46]
Greg Phillips
Well, I don't recall.
- [14:47]
Andy Puharich
They had a camera. Right. On.
- [14:49]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. We were filming him the whole time.
- [14:50]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [14:51]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. But I don't know how he did it. That's all I can say. Was it a trick? Perhaps? But he did do the classic thing where he holds it, he rubs it like this and.
- [15:00]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [15:00]
Greg Phillips
Starts back. I don't. I can't say. Do I believe it? Not 100%.
- [15:05]
Andy Puharich
That's your thought, Danny, I can't think.
- [15:07]
Greg Phillips
It's.
- [15:08]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. Yeah. If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved, I encourage you to please come check out our Patreon community. Not only does our Patreon community get every episode you see on YouTube early, fully uncensored and ad free, but we're also doing Patreon exclusive episodes as well as live Q&As, and you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week. For me, being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our Patreon community every week has been huge. And this is my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Now back to the show. I. I keep going back and forth. I. I like. I. I'm kind of like you. I think that. I think that this stuff's real. Like, I think the telepathy stuff's real. I think the Remote viewing stuff is real. I believe in extra sensory perception.
- [15:55]
Andy Puharich
Right.
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Interviewer Danny
But I think there's a lot of fucking fuckery that's going on with people especially. Especially people that are becoming like, very famous, getting a lot of attention for it, selling books, that kind of thing. That's where I start to get skeptical.
- [16:07]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [16:08]
Greg Phillips
Well, the other thing I'll say about the telekinesis is you've probably seen when some people do it, like, the tips of the fork will be like twirl, like sort of twirled up almost like a circle. Have you seen this? That is. I mean, I don't know how you do that by just kind of like bending it. Because even this woman, one of the space kids in the film, she of course, you know, didn't do it in front of me, but she had this bag of cutlery she claims that she bent. And you know, the tips of them are all wound up. I mean, that's really. That's strange. I don't. I can't. I don't know how you would do that. I.
- [16:46]
Interviewer Danny
So yeah, yeah, that reminds me. We had Dean Raiden. We. We were talking to him the other day and he was telling us a story of a spoon that he was able to bend using these tricks. And who. Did he. Remember who he said he learned that from?
- [17:06]
Andy Puharich
No.
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Interviewer Danny
Yeah, neither do I. I thought he
- [17:08]
Andy Puharich
was talking to Isaac.
- [17:11]
Greg Phillips
Maybe he would.
- [17:12]
Interviewer Danny
No, I don't think it was Esok. I forget. It might have been Uri. But he was. Dean Raiden's a guy who's been studying this stuff forever. He's like, did a bunch of stuff within, like the telekinesis parapsychology world during the Cold War, and he still does it today, scientist. And he said like using these protocols, he was able to bend a spoon.
- [17:34]
Andy Puharich
And he.
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Interviewer Danny
I mean, he seemed very genuine when I was talking to him. He said he kept the spoon. He says he still has it. It's like a real steel spoon or whatever, stainless steel spoon. And. And like there's no way you would have been able to bend it without a ton of force.
- [17:49]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I know.
- [17:50]
Andy Puharich
Did he say how he did it? Was it like a chemical? Was it pre. Pre worked on or.
- [17:56]
Interviewer Danny
No, he said he did it genuinely through these telekinetic powers. Like, he said that he was like just like meditating and like was like touching it. Everyone was able to bend it with this protocol and that was the only time he was able to do it. He said he's also tried it like hundreds of times, not been able to do it. He's like, there's one time he's able to do it. He kept that spoon from when he did it.
- [18:15]
Greg Phillips
I mean, it is hard for anyone if you just get a stainless steel spoon. I mean, it's, it's pretty difficult to bend it.
- [18:21]
Andy Puharich
Like, the thing is that I'm sure you. You agree with me. I mean, I do believe also in the. In the power of the mind is incredible. Is an incredible force. The mind can do so many things.
- [18:33]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [18:34]
Andy Puharich
And. And this might be one of them. I don't know if people can repeat it like Uri Geller did all the time. So I think that, you know, if you want to be on a TV show, you have to perform.
- [18:46]
Interviewer Danny
Sure.
- [18:47]
Andy Puharich
You're going to.
- [18:48]
Interviewer Danny
Sure. And this stuff, like, I. I imagine this stuff probably. You're probably not able to access this stuff 24 7, even if you can do it. Like, if you have some incredible ability to tun your mind to like, another dimension where you can move Ben Spoons and read people's minds, like, you're not gonna be able to. I can't imagine this, like, just comes to you on, like, whenever you want to call it. Like, I'm sure when you're on stage in front of people and like, you're getting paid to demonstrate stuff, like, you can't rely on the muse tapping into you every single time. You got to figure out a way to like, force it.
- [19:23]
Greg Phillips
Exactly.
- [19:24]
Interviewer Danny
So that doesn't mean that it's all. It just means that, like, look, if you're make turning this into a business and you can't rely on it all the time, you have to figure out a way to fake it sometimes.
- [19:34]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, definitely.
- [19:36]
Andy Puharich
So, yeah, that's the way I feel too.
- [19:38]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, a lot.
- [19:39]
Andy Puharich
And this goes for a lot of people that do.
- [19:43]
Interviewer Danny
So I wanted to ask you, how did you first discover what your dad was doing?
- [19:51]
Andy Puharich
Well, the first time he told me about it was in 75, again, not 95. And he told me he met this guy, he came to visit us in Eindhoven in the Netherlands, and he told us what he was working on. And, you know, he said he met this guy, he was able to bend metal with his mind and do all these other things. And that was the first time he told me about it. And then, you know, later on I went to the States, and of course, Uri was actually living in our house at the time.
- [20:21]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, wow.
- [20:22]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I used to play basketball with him a lot. But I was, you know, I was 15 years old and I was still trying to figure out what the hell all of this was. And I wasn't very easy believer. So, you know, it took me a long time before I could actually kind of.
- [20:40]
Interviewer Danny
Even when you were 15, you knew you were skeptical of this stuff. Yeah.
- [20:45]
Andy Puharich
You know, my dad was my hero, so I kind of was inclined to believe the things he told me. But I've always been very skeptical, and I've always, you know, tried to, you know, I need proof myself. I have to see it myself.
- [20:59]
Interviewer Danny
At what point did you realize, like, how. How, like, big this whole operation was that your dad was a part of?
- [21:11]
Andy Puharich
I think it kind of hit me when there's this book called Briefing for the Landing on Planet Earth. And this describes the work my dad did later with John Whitmore and Phyllis Schlemmer with an entity called the Nine. Phyllis channeled this, and they'd been doing that for a long time. And a book was published, this Briefings book. And I read that book, and that really hit me. Then I really started to grasp the idea of, you know, there being extraterrestrial entities that my dad was contacting. And then I. I became really, really interested in it. And I started. But I have to be honest, it was in. In only in 85, when I had a very serious UFO encounter myself that I was totally convinced. And all the doubt left me.
- [22:06]
Interviewer Danny
What was that encounter?
- [22:08]
Andy Puharich
It's an interesting story. My dad was living in Devotion, North Carolina at the time, and a big house owned by the Reynolds Tobacco family. They let him stay there. It was a big house. He had a lot of people visiting, and I was there for the summer. My sister was there. There was a whole bunch of other people, and there was two mediums that were also there, and they both had the same prediction that there was going to be a UFO landing at the house on a certain date. So it was kind of funny because the day before it was supposed to happen, my cousin and I took up a video camera and we recorded everyone asking them, you know, how is it going to affect you? Do you think it's real? And this and that. And we watched that movie that evening, and it turned out funny. We were all laughing about it. A bunch of us went out to the porch just, you know, to sit outside and talk about it more. And I remember very well I was sitting with my back towards. Towards the outside, and suddenly my cousin goes, oh, my God. So we turned around and there was this huge array of lights that moved across the sky really slowly, trailing the light behind him. And that was Obviously not from this world. That was obviously, you know, and it had been predicted that it was going to happen the next day. But later on we figured out it was like almost at midnight. And that, that moment, I. I was able to drop all my doubt. You know, that was a very, very important moment in my life.
- [23:51]
Interviewer Danny
So it just looked like a trail of lights?
- [23:55]
Andy Puharich
Well, what I saw is, like, there was a whole bunch of different colored lights. Like, I didn't see a shape, but I just saw like a shape of lights. An interesting thing was that, you know, when something flashes by really fast and it leaves a trail behind, trail of lights, just because, you know, the way physics works. But this thing was going really slowly and incredibly silent. There was no sound at all.
- [24:22]
Interviewer Danny
How close would you say it was?
- [24:26]
Andy Puharich
Let's say about 100 yards away.
- [24:28]
Greg Phillips
Oh, wow.
- [24:29]
Andy Puharich
Over the treetops. It lasted about, I don't know, maybe a minute.
- [24:34]
Interviewer Danny
And what was the shape of the lights? Like, what shape did it form?
- [24:37]
Andy Puharich
The form. It was kind of. Kind of sphere. And it wasn't like a UFO shape, if that's what you're asking. I just saw this, you know, whole bunch of lights moving across the sky, leaving this trail and. Yeah, pretty interesting.
- [24:54]
Interviewer Danny
And it lasted only a minute.
- [24:56]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [24:56]
Interviewer Danny
And where it just zoomed off or what?
- [25:00]
Andy Puharich
No, it didn't zoom off. And it just disappeared behind it just faded away. Just faded away.
- [25:04]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [25:04]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, good question, actually, because I can't really remember how it, how it, how it fade away. So, yeah, then everyone that was there witnessed it. You know, all we could go was, oh, my God, oh my God, we're all hugging each other. And if you have an experience like that, I can tell you, then you suddenly start to realize, okay, okay, so all of this stuff must be real. My dad wasn't even there. He was sleeping and he goes, oh, yeah, I've seen so many of those, you know.
- [25:36]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [25:37]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [25:37]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [25:38]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [25:38]
Andy Puharich
It was really weird. So to answer your question, that's the moment in my life when I really realized, oh, my God, you know, what my dad's doing is really has some validity to it.
- [25:50]
Interviewer Danny
And when did you realize all of the intelligence and military ties into all this stuff?
- [25:58]
Andy Puharich
I never really did.
- [26:00]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, really?
- [26:00]
Andy Puharich
No. No.
- [26:02]
Interviewer Danny
You guys, your dad never talked to you about that stuff?
- [26:05]
Andy Puharich
Well, I was talking to Greg about that earlier. My dad, you know, you saw that, You've seen the film, right? And that's one point where his house was burned down. Right. And he always. He was convinced it was the CIA trying to stop him of publishing A certain manuscript and putting out information. They had warned him not to do it. Right. Then his house was burned out. And then after that, he became incredibly paranoid. And he kept saying that the CIA was, you know, after him. And he hated the CIA. I mean, he was literally. He hated them and was totally against them. That's the picture that formed in my mind. I mean, later on, people started putting pieces of the puzzle together. And apparently, I mean, I know he worked for the government in his earlier years because he had to go to the military. And obviously they paid for a lot of his research because they were very interested in what he was doing. And when he was in the military, he was assigned to investigate the paranormal. And so he had an involvement with the government. But if he was ever really on their payroll, he never mentioned it to me. All I know is he hated those guys. So that. But that's my experience, you know, Greg really, you know, dove deep into the. Into all the material and came up with a. With another conclusion. So.
- [27:42]
Interviewer Danny
So who. So who was paying him?
- [27:45]
Greg Phillips
Well, multiple different agencies, at least in the early years. But that's what was interesting about doing this film is like I would discover things that Andy, you know, wouldn't. Never really knew.
- [27:58]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, right.
- [27:59]
Greg Phillips
Like, for instance, something that I sort of collaborated on with Annie Jacobson is that she had mentioned that he had gotten this large grant from the Atomic Energy Commission. Really, in the late 60s. Yeah. So what happened was. I, of course, was like, okay, what happened? Was this real? I did a lot of digging and I came across the documents that, yes, proved this, that they went to his lab in the late 60s, intellectron. He had a laboratory in New York where they're doing a lot of biomedical research.
- [28:33]
Andy Puharich
Was that the Intellectron?
- [28:34]
Greg Phillips
Intellectron.
- [28:35]
Andy Puharich
Wasn't that the Roundtable foundation day?
- [28:37]
Greg Phillips
No, this was. This was late 68, 67. And there's all these documents of this guy, Paul Henshaw, who worked for the Atomic Energy Commission, who was involved in the Manhattan Project, literally. And he was the head of biological research or something for the Atomic Energy Commission. They went to his laboratory to witness an experiment he was doing with the TD100, which is this hearing device that Buharich invented. And you see it in the film where these deaf patients were able to hear using tones that would somehow connect through the facial nerves. They would hear, be able to interpret signals and voices. And he invented this machine that did that, and he demonstrated this for the Atomic Energy Commission. And they concluded that the technology was definitely real and definitely worked how he said, and he Got this, I think, $300,000 grant from the Atomic Energy Commission, which at that time was over maybe close to a million dollars. And that was in 68.
- [29:46]
Interviewer Danny
And so, yeah, there was a story of somebody who had, like. Like metal teeth and they were picking up radio signals or something. Yeah, they thought they were hearing voices, and it was just like the radio. Local radio.
- [29:56]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah, that was. That was earlier at the round table in the 50s.
- [30:00]
Andy Puharich
That's how he started the Intellectron company. Yeah, because he was working with this dentist and he figured, oh, wait a while, this guy's receiving. You know, he's got this filling which acts as an antenna. And then he came up with this device that you would actually implant in a tooth with a transmitter on your wrist or whatever that would transmit. And so deaf people were able to hear through this nerve.
- [30:23]
Interviewer Danny
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- [31:02]
Greg Phillips
Wow.
- [31:02]
Andy Puharich
I think that's how we started working on the TD, the transdermal machine, right?
- [31:07]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, that started in the 50s and went in through the the 60s. But that's one example of, you know, who was giving him money. I mean, that's a fact. Atomic Energy Commission. But what's always mysterious is like, we don't really know where it went, you know, or how far it went, but we just know, hey, they gave him a significant amount of money, and what happened with that or how much it was advanced, we don't. We don't really know.
- [31:31]
Andy Puharich
Didn't they buy the whole project off of him? Because I know that at some point, you know, we suddenly got a letter, I'm a millionaire. But he had sold the Intellectron Company. He'd gotten rid of it. So would that coincide with that? You're saying it was a grant for him to do research?
- [31:49]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I could. I mean that again. It just goes back to the mystery of him, where I. Even though the research I've done, I don't. I've heard that story, I think, through you and maybe your sister as well, that they had sold the company, but I don't really know. Like, I never really found anything that would indicate that that is how it turned out.
- [32:10]
Interviewer Danny
You got a letter, he told you he became a millionaire.
- [32:14]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, well, I was living in the Netherlands. I think we got a letter and he said, oh, I'm now a millionaire or something. Something to make him look whatever big. So. But the, you know, the interesting. And this is going to come up a lot because Greg has done so much research on my dad. He's really, you know, went and found all these incredible documents and papers and tapes and videos. He knows a lot more about my dad than I do.
- [32:42]
Interviewer Danny
What out of all of the research and all the documents and all the tapes that you listen to Greg, like what to you sort of stood out the most or like kind of like blew your perception out of the water the most? Your pretty. Like, were there any like, preconceptions you had that kind of like. Like shocked you?
- [33:02]
Greg Phillips
I guess it was. It. It kind of goes back to this TD 100 device. Because he creates this in the 60s, right. I think it was even like 65 or 6. It was pretty, pretty early. And again, what that does is it enables people to hear like tones and they can decipher tones which could have a message in it and so forth. And they can. They can hear it. So I think for me, there's a lot of these tapes, and we may have talked about this from the way later in the 70s, late 70s, these channeling sessions, right. Where they're communicating with the nine and they're. They're, you know, usually a space kid is going into a trance, meditative state and is receiving information from the nine, you know, and an alleged entity.
- [33:53]
Interviewer Danny
What are the nine? We got. We can't, we can't just gloss over.
- [33:59]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [33:59]
Interviewer Danny
We got to tell people what the nine is.
- [34:01]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Well, the, the nine. This. This woman called. Well, actually, this all started. It's kind of interesting. This all started really early on. When was it when the doctor came into his lab?
- [34:13]
Greg Phillips
1953.
- [34:14]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Was it in 53? Really that early?
- [34:17]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [34:18]
Andy Puharich
So this Indian guy walks into his lab and I don't know the details and takes my. My dad by his, I think, index finger, gives him a story of his life to convince my daddy that he's, you know, that there's something psychic about him or whatever. And then he starts channeling this entity that calls themselves a nine. How do they start off? We are m. Something.
- [34:44]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. There's all this weird.
- [34:46]
Andy Puharich
They say they're like the nine principles of nature, forces something or other. And so later on, many years later, this woman Phyllis, comes along and she suddenly starts channeling the same entity, the Nine. And my dad really latched onto that.
- [35:06]
Interviewer Danny
How many years later was that?
- [35:09]
Greg Phillips
Well, technically, it was Uri who.
- [35:13]
Andy Puharich
Did. He. Did he. Initially, but he didn't. He channeled that entity called Spectra. Yes, it was Phyllis that. Did he channel the.
- [35:22]
Greg Phillips
Did he claims to have. I don't know if that's truthful, but he claims to have.
- [35:26]
Interviewer Danny
When you guys are talking, just try to, like, talk into the mic.
- [35:30]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. So it was like, a decade later, it was seven early 70s. The first one was 53. So for whatever reason, all that time passed, and then they popped back up almost two decades later.
- [35:44]
Interviewer Danny
Whoa.
- [35:45]
Greg Phillips
So that's.
- [35:47]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [35:47]
Greg Phillips
And that.
- [35:47]
Andy Puharich
And Phyllis was a very powerful channel. And the information that she channeled was also. Was very interesting. And she talked about Earth's history and the involvement of alien civilizations. And my dad actually set up a whole, like, a company. Right. Called the Lab Nine, which was, you know, centered around her communications. And they did all these trips and I think it's in the film, right. That they went out to meditate a lot and.
- [36:15]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [36:16]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. And so what were the Nine?
- [36:20]
Greg Phillips
So, okay. It's complex, but apparently they were. They're. They're a group of entities that are basically overseeing the universe. I guess is the simplest way to say.
- [36:33]
Interviewer Danny
Okay, so they're aliens.
- [36:34]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [36:35]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Well, whatever.
- [36:36]
Interviewer Danny
Aliens are like divine spirits.
- [36:38]
Greg Phillips
More like divine spirits.
- [36:39]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [36:39]
Greg Phillips
Because they've never really said, you know, we look like this, or we're shaped
- [36:43]
Andy Puharich
like this spokesman called Tom.
- [36:45]
Interviewer Danny
They never said we're from Zeta Reticuli.
- [36:47]
Greg Phillips
No, they're more of, like. Yeah. And just an intelligence that can be contacted through this method of trance and that. They're out there, they're overseeing not just Earth, but the universe. They're overseeing what happens with the planet because it's all part of a cosmic plan. And they're making sure things don't happen and that. That kind of thing. But it's a group of intelligences is the best way I guess you could describe it. And they communicate through certain people, usually through psychic people. And for whatever reason, there's only, like, a few that they've come through. It's this guy, Dr. Vinod, the Indian guy in the 50s, and then apparently Uri Geller in the 70s. And then this woman Phyllis, in the 70s as well. So it's strange. I don't know if there's some protocol that brings them through certain people or some people can bring them through, others can't. But apparently like just through Puharich, he was able to get people to connect with the Nine. And it's very. I mean, it's a total rabbit hole. You know, like, Peter Lavenda talks a lot about the Nine and there's tons of conspiracy stuff about it. And. But I think the big question obviously is like, what is the conspiracy?
- [38:10]
Interviewer Danny
No, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. What's the question?
- [38:13]
Greg Phillips
Well, the conspiracy is just when they formed, right? So in the 50s, you know, Puharich has this psychic lab. He's doing a lot of psychic research. And at the time he was working or getting funding from the military, from the army. And again, we all. We know this as a fact. There's documents. And this goes back to the CIA thing too, because he was corresponding with the CIA back then too. I mean, there's literally letters from Alan Dulles assistant going back and forth to Buharich. You know, it was nice to see you in Washington. Make sure you. Make sure you touch base when you're here, you know, that kind of stuff. So the conspiracy is basically like, why in a research lab being financed by multiple intelligence agencies, is all of a sudden a psychic making contact with this group of intelligent beings? And why are there all these very, very elite, wealthy, high society people involved? And why are they there and why are they part of it? Is there some bigger plan? Is there some bigger idea here? Is this psychological warfare? Is this real? So it all goes back to that origin point in the 50s, where they first came through this Indian psychic. But, you know, I can see why people would think the kind of conspiracy angle to it. But at the same time, totally, we just don't know. And that's what's frustrating about, you know, making the film and spending so much time, like, as we sit here today, like, I still can't really definitively say, oh, this is, this is what happened. Like, we. It's a huge rabbit hole, you know, and I don't know, there's this big conspiracy that, you know, the nine of these people in politics through the years have been involved. And of course there's the Gene Roddenberry connection where he came to a bunch of the sessions and was channeling the Nine. So people think that they're.
- [40:18]
Interviewer Danny
Who's that?
- [40:19]
Greg Phillips
He's the creator of Star Trek. The guy created Star Trek. Oh, my God. I actually put out a video about this.
- [40:26]
Interviewer Danny
We saw. Somebody showed us the most up video I've ever seen the other day of the creator of Star Trek.
- [40:32]
Greg Phillips
Oh, yeah.
- [40:33]
Interviewer Danny
He's talking about, like, his daughters.
- [40:35]
Greg Phillips
And you see that, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. So he was involved. He went up to the Poorch's house and sat in on all these channeling sessions. So the point is, there's this conspiracy that the Nine.
- [40:49]
Interviewer Danny
Roddenberry did.
- [40:50]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, we have the tape of it. I put out. I made a little video on it.
- [40:53]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [40:55]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Cosmic Clock is a new page I started where I'm trying to put out some little tidbits of things we haven't used in the film.
- [41:02]
Andy Puharich
But what's the conspiracy?
- [41:04]
Greg Phillips
Well, it's just this idea that because some, like the military creator of Star Trek, all these people are trying to use the Nine to usher in some new, you know, new world order, a new agenda, and the Nine are orchestrating everything. But, I mean, we've seen. Of course, there's Deep Space Nine. And you can say, okay, he was influenced by the Nine and he called it Deep Space Nine. But there's no real, like, evidence that the Nine actually, like, did anything or really shaped anything or really changed anything. And what's odd to me is the fact that, you know. No. Why is no one now channeling the Nine? Where. Where'd they go?
- [41:48]
Interviewer Danny
We have a new version of the Nine now. Yeah, I mean, that. That whole story, like, it parallels perfectly with modern stories of, like, UFO abductees and stuff. Well, not modern, but, like, if you look at, you know, for example, Whitley Strieber, you know, a guy who's like. You know, his stories are insane. Prolific science fiction writer, connected to all these spooks. And, like, his family was in the military. He was a part of, like, some crazy childhood experiments in the. In the army, in Texas. And you have guys like Chris Bledsoe, who, you know, from North Carolina, has these crazy sightings, and all of a sudden he's getting visited by NASA and, like, all these spooks and these intelligence people that are, like, tied into, you know, like, who knows how much misinformation stuff could be wrapped up in all that. And.
- [42:33]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [42:33]
Interviewer Danny
You know, and then you have, like, laying the groundwork for all of this. You have the whole Paul Benowitz story. I don't know if you're familiar with that one.
- [42:40]
Greg Phillips
Oh, yeah.
- [42:40]
Interviewer Danny
Where, like, he was literally drove into, like, an insane asylum.
- [42:46]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [42:46]
Interviewer Danny
You know, by. By Richard Doty. I think his name was this disinformation guy.
- [42:52]
Greg Phillips
There's a good film that just came out about all that, called Saucers, Spooks and Kooks.
- [42:58]
Interviewer Danny
What?
- [42:58]
Greg Phillips
Oh, you gotta see.
- [42:59]
Interviewer Danny
Where did this come out?
- [43:00]
Greg Phillips
I'll plug that.
- [43:00]
Interviewer Danny
What A great title.
- [43:01]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, it's. It's Adam. Go rightly. He's an author. He's written a great book. He wrote a book about Kerry Thornley. That guy who was friends with Oswald and the whole jfk. Assassin. He's like a genius, this guy. He's an author.
- [43:16]
Interviewer Danny
Pull this up, bro. I want to see this. This is out.
- [43:18]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. He wrote a book called Saucers, Spooks and Kooks which is like a very detailed history of the whole just UFO disinformation world. When it started, why it started. It's a great doc. They based it off his writing, his book. Yeah, it's out now. You can, you can find it. But here we go.
- [43:37]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [43:37]
Greg Phillips
Is it trail?
- [43:38]
Interviewer Danny
Let's watch it. We might have to. They might copyright us.
- [43:41]
Greg Phillips
Oh, again.
- [43:42]
Interviewer Danny
If you want to throw the headphones on, you can hear it.
- [43:44]
Greg Phillips
I thought you may have heard of this.
- [43:45]
Interviewer Danny
No, I have not. Go ahead, hit it. Steve O.
- [43:52]
Andy Puharich
Bizarre Roswell, alien bodies, multiple crashed alien spaceships. A government cover up Dulce base.
- [44:00]
Interviewer Danny
It didn't matter what base it was.
- [44:01]
Andy Puharich
It was all the battle of underground
- [44:03]
Interviewer Danny
bases and the aliens are coming in
- [44:04]
Andy Puharich
and all this really out there fringe areas. This is such a crazy ass story. My God.
- [44:12]
Interviewer Danny
Paul Bennewitz was a scientist. He started noticing that there were lights doing strange things.
- [44:19]
Andy Puharich
These things lit up like balls of bright light and just took off.
- [44:23]
Interviewer Danny
Came up, went south around the end
- [44:26]
Andy Puharich
of the mountains, gone. Who are they?
- [44:30]
Interviewer Danny
Who's this guy?
- [44:32]
Greg Phillips
That's go right there.
- [44:33]
Andy Puharich
Aliens. We don't know what else it could be going like, wow.
- [44:36]
Greg Phillips
They decided to just encourage him with the, with the outlandish ideas one because the only people that would listen would be crazy UFO people and foreign agents, spooks or goats.
- [44:51]
Andy Puharich
We got Richard Doty apparently purposely misleading Benowitz and for whatever purposes, which could be counterintelligence to confuse Russians Moore.
- [45:05]
Greg Phillips
To me he was completely sold on Benowitz. And Benowitz at that point had become the paranoid man.
- [45:14]
Andy Puharich
It's like what a gut punch.
- [45:16]
Interviewer Danny
Everybody in that room, including Stan Friedman had basically been played by Bill.
- [45:21]
Andy Puharich
I guess these days it would be
- [45:23]
Greg Phillips
more like that New York Times article.
- [45:24]
Interviewer Danny
It just comes out of nowhere and just bang.
- [45:27]
Greg Phillips
Somebody's making an effort to push it
- [45:29]
Interviewer Danny
through in the way that people accept
- [45:31]
Andy Puharich
information and how they're using UFOs to potentially cover for an intelligence kind of gathering, psychological warfare. And it's such a great freaking cover story. If someone like Paul Benowitz is already
- [45:46]
Greg Phillips
there, she just let them do the work.
- [45:53]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, that's Fun. Yeah, no, that's the craziest thing about it too, man. That's, that's the reason I'm more skeptical than ever about it. Because like that, that's, that makes so much sense that it makes more sense that they would have been trying to use Paul Benowitz as, because he was tied to Muon and he was living in New Mexico, seeing these, these weird crafts flying above the Air Force base. And then Paul Benowitz goes, hey man, I think these are aliens. I think you're right about this. And then the NSA moves in across the street, starts beaming into his like apartment, telling him that there's some alien civilization that ran out of water and they're coming here. And now he's going and talking to MUFON because like, and the whole strategy, the high level strategy with the military was give, pump this guy with a bunch of fake information that leads him away from our serious military technology. And because we know the Soviets have infiltrated the UFO community in the United States trying to get more information on our, on our military technology. So we're going to like, you know, throw them off the path, throw them off the trail or whatever and use this guy's like a conduit of disinfo.
- [46:53]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Interviewer Danny
And that's. The story is as old as the UFO story is. You know, that seems to be the intelligence, the whole intelligence, intelligence thing is like so intertwined in all of it. Yeah, it's just like, it's almost like you are just gonna spin your wheels if you're gonna spend your time trying to figure out what this really is. Because it's just, you walk into it, it's a house of mirrors.
- [47:19]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, well, I think my takeaway, I mean, I'm a believer or you know, I want to believe, of course, but I completely agree with everything you just said. But you know, at the same time I just feel like this, just this idea that every single UFO sighting or situation ever since the beginning of time has just always been a cover for a military thing and.
- [47:44]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, no, I don't, I don't think that's.
- [47:46]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I'm not saying you do. I just mean I've. Some people think that and you know, then you got Andy your story. I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve you. A lot of people I know my own mother, who's the most, you know, sane, level headed person, she has a very weird story when she was younger seeing something. So it's like, you know, I just feel like there's definitely that going on? I think, yeah, that's, that's obvious. I mean it's like a true story what happened to him. But yeah, I think, and I guess a lot of other people think too, like there's still craft of unknown origin out there.
- [48:20]
Andy Puharich
What do you think?
- [48:21]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, I think that, I think it's, it's not binary. I think there's probably some out there that we have no idea. I, I think I'm inclined to believe that we have stuff that's unexplainable that defies physics, that we like siloed some sort of physics back in the 50s, some anti gravity type stuff that the public's not aware of. I believe that. And I also believe that there's probably, I think like the real aliens that are out there flying around. I think it's probably some sort of like prehistoric human civilization that like survived through time through cataclysms and stuff that maybe lives under the water and is able to like shield itself from us.
- [48:59]
Andy Puharich
What about us from the future?
- [49:01]
Interviewer Danny
That's basically that. Yeah.
- [49:02]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [49:02]
Interviewer Danny
Or, or from the future.
- [49:04]
Andy Puharich
Right, right, right.
- [49:05]
Interviewer Danny
They, if, if they are that advanced, they could probably figure out how to manipulate space time somehow.
- [49:10]
Greg Phillips
Right, Yeah, I agree. And speaking of like the sort of funneling away advanced technology and stuff, a crazy story you probably remember, it's not in the film or anything, but this story about Uri Geller apparently teleported from. So have you heard the stories in the news right now? This guy, he's like a FEMA director and he claimed that he teleported to a Waffle House.
- [49:34]
Interviewer Danny
No. That's incredible.
- [49:38]
Greg Phillips
Can he bring that up, Steve? Yeah, this has been all over the news. So this guy, he's some sort of top FEMA employee or director, someone in the Trump administration, high up guy. And I don't even know the full story, but apparently he's been out there claiming he teleported from his house into a Waffle House or something.
- [49:59]
Interviewer Danny
I wish I could do that.
- [50:01]
Greg Phillips
And so, so it's very odd. And he's, it's all over the news now. But the point is back in the 70s, Uri Geller claimed that he teleported from walking down the street in New York City to Poharage's house in Austin and came crashing through the, the screen door. Hey, here, look.
- [50:17]
Interviewer Danny
The Guardian top US FEMA official claims to have teleported to a Waffle House before. Teleporting is no fun. Greg, Greg Phillips, picked to lead FEMA's Office of Response and Recovery has said on A podcast put this guy on the list. A far right conspiracy theorist turned high. Oh, he's a far right conspiracy theorist now turned high ranking official at the US Federal Emergency Management Agency, fema claims to have once teleported to a Waffle House. Scroll down.
- [50:52]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, this is.
- [50:52]
Andy Puharich
What was he called in a. In a Waffle House on. When it was on January.
- [50:57]
Interviewer Danny
On a January 25podcast appearance, Phillips claimed the. That his car was lifted up while he was driving and transported 40 miles away into a ditch near a church. And in another instance on the same episode, Phillips said that he was teleported 50 miles away to a Waffle House in Rome, Georgia. CNN detailed the deep dive into Phillips past public statements. Wow.
- [51:18]
Greg Phillips
So.
- [51:19]
Interviewer Danny
So he says this was a long time ago or something.
- [51:22]
Greg Phillips
I don't know.
- [51:23]
Interviewer Danny
Hang on. Scroll down. Teleporting is no fun. He said, you know, you know, it's happening, but you can't do anything about it. And so you just go. And you just go with the ride and wow, what an incredible adventure it all was.
- [51:38]
Greg Phillips
Well, what's crazy is that Geller, in his story, he says the same thing almost. He goes, you know, it's happening and you can't control it, and all of a sudden, it happens.
- [51:48]
Andy Puharich
Geller says he was, like, walking down Fifth Avenue or whatever.
- [51:52]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [51:53]
Andy Puharich
And he suddenly felt like he was being pulled back in. The next moment, he was face down. There was a big hole in my dad's porch screen up high.
- [52:04]
Greg Phillips
So, whatever, they filmed it, too. There's like, Super 8 video of him filming this screen porch that's all smashed. Yeah.
- [52:11]
Andy Puharich
And then he smashed on the glass table. The glass table was shattered. What, And Uri was lying on the floor. Yeah. This is a weird story. And, I mean, if you wanted to throw something through. No, it's not just the aftermath.
- [52:25]
Interviewer Danny
Just the aftermath. Yeah.
- [52:26]
Andy Puharich
If you want to throw something, you know, you need a helicopter or whatever to actually make that happen. So. And. Or he had a receipt in his hand because he had just bought something in some store with a time stamped on it, you know, 50 miles away and, like, minutes before. So it's a pretty credible story.
- [52:47]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [52:48]
Greg Phillips
My theory is they were experimenting with how to teleport a human being. I have no. I don't know. That's just my crazy theory. Or, you know, wait, he.
- [53:02]
Interviewer Danny
So Puharich was there?
- [53:03]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [53:04]
Greg Phillips
Well, he was at his house.
- [53:06]
Andy Puharich
He was at his house and you heard his big, big slam. He thought that the furnace had exploded.
- [53:10]
Greg Phillips
So maybe. Maybe they figured out a way to teleport you know, a small object. And so they said, why don't we, why don't we try and see if this is possible with a human being. It's a crazy theory, I know, but you know, Geller I think at that time in a way was sort of like a guinea pig to a lot of this, these types of experiments. I think so, yeah.
- [53:34]
Interviewer Danny
That's a weird thing though.
- [53:35]
Greg Phillips
No proof of that at all.
- [53:36]
Interviewer Danny
One of the crazy things about this whole story is that if this is some like deep funded research that the military or the government is doing, why make this guy such. This like this celebrity figure like Pal put off said in your movie? I think he said Geller was maybe like 5% of their research, but he was 95 of their publicity.
- [54:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I think, I mean it's just a theory, but I think it's maybe a distraction situation where here's this again. I have no idea if this is really how it went down, but. So Puharaj publishes the book on uri Geller. In 74, he writes a whole book about how he met him, how he brought him to the United States, how all of a sudden he started channeling the nine and he details this teleportation story and all these other crazy stories. If you recall, it was like a pen, one of their pens got teleported to a UFO and it came back. And they have proof that it came back.
- [54:51]
Andy Puharich
The tapes, don't forget about the tapes.
- [54:52]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, the tapes where they would record channeling sessions would disappear. So the only way that he could know what was said is he had to quickly transcribe the tape before the tape dematerialized and would disappear. This is all in this book that Buharich published. So you think, here's a very intelligent doctor scientist, potentially very military intelligence, connected, was all of a sudden putting out a book which would do nothing more than completely discredit him and make him look like a total nut.
- [55:24]
Andy Puharich
Which is what happened.
- [55:25]
Greg Phillips
Which is what happened.
- [55:26]
Andy Puharich
So then scientific career.
- [55:28]
Interviewer Danny
So when he published the book, when
- [55:29]
Andy Puharich
he published the book, the whole scientific.
- [55:31]
Greg Phillips
So, so then they can say, oh, of course, this guy's just a. Did you read his book? He's crazy, he wrote all this crazy shit. Of course he's. So then he can go on and do whatever he needs to do. So the general public says, oh, he's that guy who wrote that crazy book about the teleporting. And of course, how could we believe this guy? And he can go right on his way doing whatever experiments he wants to do. Just a Theory. But, you know, I saw this old documentary about the kgb, and it was really interesting because there was this one section where they talked about a tactic they use is actually to purposely discredit people in that way. Put out false articles, put out things that make them look like essentially they're crazy. And so these people can kind of be seen like that publicly, but in the shadows, just continue what they're doing. So that was in, like, a very legitimate doc on the KGB I saw. So I don't know. But it does make you question that. That book. And, you know, why would this very credible, very smart, very, you know, put. Just publish that. And it was a huge book. It was a bestseller. I mean, it was.
- [56:42]
Interviewer Danny
Or would they intentionally. They being, like, the spooks behind it all, would they intentionally plant fake seeds into these people's, like, Puharich's mind and tell them things, knowing that when they do eventually write a book or blow the whistle down the road, they're gonna have these fake things built into the story. That sounds so crazy. It's just gonna make him sound like people are gonna think he's a kook.
- [57:08]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [57:08]
Interviewer Danny
That's like. That's, like, my take on the whole Bob Lazar thing. I think that, you know how he describes walking by a window and seeing, like, an alien, and they showed him the documents that said it was from Zeta Reticuli.
- [57:19]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [57:19]
Interviewer Danny
I feel like those could have been, like, specifically planted things along the way that they intentionally brought him into contact with so that if he ever did come out and, like, spill the beans, that would be in the story. They would know where it came from. And, like, people would think he's batshit crazy.
- [57:39]
Greg Phillips
I agree with that.
- [57:40]
Interviewer Danny
I think that's probably possible. That's probably one aspect of all this stuff, too.
- [57:44]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [57:45]
Greg Phillips
Well, something we were talking about that I wanted Andy to say is because there's this. This big conspiracy, really, about what we're saying, like, how connected was Buhari? Who did he work for? This and that. And, you know, we don't really. I mean, we have some documents. We have the Atomic Energy Commission thing, but there was a story in, I guess, what, the 80s, late 80s or something, when these two individuals came to. Came to your house and were sort of trying to recruit him, I guess you could say.
- [58:19]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, well, you know, that's the story my dad told me. I mean, I saw these guys show up and they had a heated conversation, and my dad sent him away. My dad later on said those were CA operatives that tried to get him to work for him.
- [58:34]
Interviewer Danny
When was this?
- [58:35]
Andy Puharich
The time he lived here?
- [58:36]
Greg Phillips
83, 84 or something?
- [58:38]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, yeah, probably around that time. But to be quite clear, guys, I mean, I'm not into the conspiracy stuff at all. I've always just. Just, you know, thought, like my dad was a curious scientist who's looking for, you know, answers to the paranormal. Went to Israel by himself and, you know, met this guy and took him back to the stage. And I don't. I'm not into the whole everything's a setup plan and everything's, you know, set up to discredit him. I'm not in that league at all, I'm afraid so. But, you know, that's my take on it. Which is. Which.
- [59:15]
Interviewer Danny
So. So who. So when. When was this visit, though, with the guys that he said were intelligence officers?
- [59:22]
Greg Phillips
Well, I want to say it was like 83 or 85. But from what I remember at that time, Pujara, his dad was doing a lot of this elf work.
- [59:33]
Andy Puharich
Extremely low frequency, because that's a whole different chapter. You know, my dad really went into the elf stuff. That's the reason that his house was burnt down. Cause he wrote a manuscript called the magnifying transmitter. Yeah. He was going to have it published, but then the publisher. The manuscript disappeared. And then my dad was warned not to. Not to publish it. And then the house fire happened. But that was all the. The elf stuff. I believe that's real, because my dad was trying to.
- [60:03]
Interviewer Danny
So the elf stuff is all tied to, like, Havana syndrome and all that stuff, right?
- [60:07]
Greg Phillips
Correct. Yeah.
- [60:08]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [60:09]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [60:09]
Greg Phillips
But way early, before all this stuff started coming out, we're talking like.
- [60:13]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, Savannah. Wasn't that sound waves? Wasn't. Was that.
- [60:18]
Interviewer Danny
I think so.
- [60:19]
Andy Puharich
Low frequency?
- [60:19]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, they're beaming some sort of frequencies or something like that.
- [60:22]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, the ELF is extra low frequency, which is, like, really low bandwidth. And the Russians were experimenting with it, and the Americans were experimenting with. To use it as mind control over large populations. That's basically in the theory my dad had, at least. Okay. And he was able to pick it up on his radio, could tune in, and you could hear, like, this chopping sound, like a helicopter. And he was totally into that, and he was, you know, focused on that for a while.
- [60:52]
Interviewer Danny
But how would you use these. What does ELF stand for?
- [60:56]
Andy Puharich
Extra low.
- [60:57]
Interviewer Danny
Extra low frequency. How would you use extra low frequencies for mind control?
- [61:02]
Andy Puharich
Well, apparently it has some kind of. What would you call it? It works on the brain or it works on the physical body to make people edgy or, you know, it's just a way of mass. It produces this signal. Then there was big antenna arrays. It was not like just a small thing.
- [61:20]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, yeah, the one in Russia is insane. The one in.
- [61:23]
Andy Puharich
In the middle of.
- [61:24]
Interviewer Danny
Find the picture of the big ELF panel in Russia. It's like the size of a goddamn football stadium.
- [61:29]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [61:29]
Greg Phillips
The idea is that certain frequencies can cause different reactions in the brain. So essentially, I think it's a very low frequency ELF that causes a sort of.
- [61:45]
Andy Puharich
It's kind of a mind control.
- [61:46]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Like a trance like state, but very crude.
- [61:49]
Interviewer Danny
So like it makes you more receptive.
- [61:52]
Greg Phillips
More receptive. Tired out of it. Just discombobulated. Higher frequencies, which apparently they used in Iraq and they. The 90s. That causes people to get very agitated, very angry, very crazy.
- [62:06]
Interviewer Danny
Really.
- [62:06]
Greg Phillips
This is. The idea is like, say you have a little. Well, this guy that Buhari worked with, Bob Beck, he created this little, what he called a black box. And you could have it sitting right here as we are right now, and you can just literally go like this. And if it's the low one, all of a sudden you're doing this. If it's the high one, you're freaking out. So the idea is that this is being done on this type.
- [62:29]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, yeah, look at that thing. That's the one in Russia.
- [62:33]
Greg Phillips
And Puhar became.
- [62:37]
Interviewer Danny
It's still sitting there today, right?
- [62:38]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I believe it's still there, but it's dead now.
- [62:40]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [62:42]
Greg Phillips
But this is one of the things that Buhari, I find is sort of redeeming in the sense that he went out. I mean, I think you can, you can speak to this too. Like, he, I guess, proved that this is what was going on. This, this technology was real, it was being used. He wanted to blow the whistle on this. And, and they, they once again, they, you know, were saying, you know, you can't do this, you know, too much, et cetera. That's probably why the house was burned. But he. After the house, you know, so the
- [63:14]
Interviewer Danny
house was burned right after.
- [63:16]
Greg Phillips
Same. Pretty much the same time he was.
- [63:18]
Interviewer Danny
He wrote some manuscript about it. About it.
- [63:20]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, he was going out, he was lecturing. But he really. Even after the fire, he went out and he's kind of made it his sort of mission in those later years to just warn people. Like, I've discovered this. This is a huge problem.
- [63:35]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Even made people need to know, protect you from it. Right.
- [63:39]
Interviewer Danny
And what's the story with the house? What's the conventional explanation for the house burning down? Like, what was the investigation?
- [63:47]
Andy Puharich
It was definitely concluded it Was arson.
- [63:49]
Interviewer Danny
It was arson.
- [63:49]
Andy Puharich
It was definitely arson. Yeah.
- [63:51]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. There's a police.
- [63:55]
Andy Puharich
They tried to kill the people that were in the house as well, because they doused the front porch and the back porch with some very flammable liquid, which was only used by certain. You know, it was a really weird kind of thing, so that both the escape exits were blocked and there was like three people in the house. Heidi was there, right? Yeah. She had to jump from the. From the second floor. It was pretty intense. And where was your dad at the time? He was in. I think he was in California at the time. Yeah.
- [64:27]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [64:27]
Andy Puharich
So he wasn't there.
- [64:28]
Interviewer Danny
So they knew he wasn't there. They must have known he wasn't there.
- [64:30]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. And I'd been there all summer, and I. I left two days before the fire happened, so I always felt they didn't want to kill me. Thank God.
- [64:39]
Interviewer Danny
Do you think they were. So who do you think it was
- [64:43]
Andy Puharich
they?
- [64:44]
Interviewer Danny
If you were to guess.
- [64:45]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Well, my dad always said it was a CIA, but, you know, I mean, he could. You know, there's so many agencies. What are you going to. When are you going to call him? You know, it could be any agency, but at least, you know, was an agency that was determined to stop him from getting this information out into the world.
- [65:01]
Interviewer Danny
Was there evidence in the house that was destroyed?
- [65:04]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I mean, I think that was the idea. Destroy what's in there. But I mean, of course a lot of it's saved because you have it that ultimately wound up with me, but,
- [65:13]
Andy Puharich
well, yeah, who knows what was there. By the course of a miracle, the someone was able to. Alarm. To set off a fire alarm, which was in the street. And fire trucks came very quickly, and they saved most of the house and most of the paperwork as well. Wow. Which was pretty incredible. So.
- [65:31]
Greg Phillips
But it was clearly way more sophisticated than, you know, a disgruntled person who was there who was like, I'm going to light a fire. I mean, even the arson report details how sophisticated. Yeah, they block the doors. I mean.
- [65:46]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, it was professional. They said they could tell by the straightness of the lines where they poured the liquid that the guy had no nerves because they were perfectly straight lines, you know, stuff like that. Because, you know, they're saying that it was a professional who wasn't, you know, so, I mean, that's real. That's real. And after that, my dad really freaked out, and he. He went in hiding in Mexico for, I don't know, a couple of years. And he was really. And after that, he was obsessed by the CIA trying to get to him.
- [66:17]
Interviewer Danny
He kind of got him paranoid, huh?
- [66:19]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, but very paranoid. I mean, it went way over the top.
- [66:22]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [66:22]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:24]
Interviewer Danny
Didn't you write a book about a sacred mushroom?
- [66:27]
Andy Puharich
Yep.
- [66:27]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [66:27]
Interviewer Danny
Is that when he went to Mexico?
- [66:30]
Greg Phillips
Oh, actually, yeah. Here, look.
- [66:31]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, this was recently republished.
- [66:33]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [66:34]
Andy Puharich
Both of these, so it's kind of interesting.
- [66:36]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, look at that.
- [66:36]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I. I brought only the COVID because I was trying to travel lightly.
- [66:42]
Interviewer Danny
Sacred Mushroom, the key to the door of eternity.
- [66:46]
Andy Puharich
See, that was. That was in. What is it? 59. When he published that, I think, originally. And so that was one of his initial investigations into the paranormal.
- [66:59]
Interviewer Danny
Because 59, you said.
- [67:00]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, yeah.
- [67:02]
Greg Phillips
But it was written in throughout.
- [67:03]
Interviewer Danny
So this was before John Allegro Sacred Mushroom book, I think.
- [67:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I think we talked.
- [67:08]
Andy Puharich
This was very early.
- [67:08]
Interviewer Danny
We did talk about this.
- [67:09]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he did all the. Sorry, I did all the research for it, like earlier. I think it just happened that 59 was the year it was published, but. Yeah.
- [67:19]
Interviewer Danny
In the Sacred Mushroom, Andrea Puharic takes us on an extraordinary journey into the realm where ancient whispers intertwine with the pulse of modern exploration. The Amanita Mascaria, mysterious and powerful, a gateway to the unseen, reveals its long veiled truce through his words, weaving past through luminous corridors of consciousness and awakening wild.
- [67:45]
Andy Puharich
So the story behind this is he was doing trance work with certain psychics and there was this one psychic called. Was it Peter Herkus or was it Harry Stone? Harry Stone, Harry Stone. So he started channeling and writing hieroglyphs suddenly. And my dad, of course, didn't really know what was being written, so he started studying ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. And it turned out he was talking about this mushroom as a way to open up people, to become more perceptive.
- [68:17]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [68:18]
Andy Puharich
So that's basically when he got interested in the mushroom and did a lot of research into that. Went to. Went out to find. There's a lot of footage on that as well, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. And footage. Yeah, my dad made all these. He went to Mexico to film, what was it, Rights being conducted by brujas with this mushroom where, like, the donkey was stolen from and they wanted to find out who did it. You know, basic stuff like that. So they did this ceremony and, you know, and then the brujas and it's that guy and the donkeys over there. Yeah, Crazy stuff. But that's all on film. It's really.
- [69:00]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [69:01]
Andy Puharich
Old school, but it's. It's very cool.
- [69:04]
Interviewer Danny
So how much did he start experimenting with psychedelics after this?
- [69:08]
Greg Phillips
Well, I think even before the. Well around the same time as the mushroom. I know he was involved in early LSD stuff as well because.
- [69:18]
Interviewer Danny
Was he connected to John Lilly?
- [69:20]
Greg Phillips
Yes. In fact, John Lilly's the guy who does all the experiments with dolphins and communication with dolphins and.
- [69:28]
Andy Puharich
Okay.
- [69:30]
Greg Phillips
And I know Andrea was interested in that too, but. Yeah, he, they were very close colleagues. Yeah. In fact, Buhari tells him story about how. And I guess in Lily's later life he had had some manic episode.
- [69:43]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [69:43]
Greg Phillips
Harich went and tried to help him and everything.
- [69:45]
Interviewer Danny
Oh really?
- [69:46]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. But they were very close.
- [69:48]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, yeah, he was all. He was all. He was on what, Ketamine. I think it was maybe.
- [69:52]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [69:52]
Interviewer Danny
Something. But he thought he was talking to aliens and.
- [69:55]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [69:56]
Interviewer Danny
Completely lost it. NASA funded John Lilly to figure out like inter species communication.
- [70:02]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [70:03]
Interviewer Danny
And John Lilly was like, you know, cutting open the heads of dolphins and like experimenting on their brains and.
- [70:10]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [70:10]
Interviewer Danny
Really probes in their brains, trying to figure out like telepathy and stuff.
- [70:14]
Greg Phillips
There's a good film about him. It's. It's all about this woman who was working in his lab with the dolphins at the time. It's like the first time she's ever spoken about it and it came out years ago.
- [70:25]
Interviewer Danny
That was fucking the dolphin.
- [70:27]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, I think I saw this one. I think it was.
- [70:29]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. The dolphin lived in the house with her. Yeah, she like filled it with water.
- [70:32]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Crazy documentary, dude. Yeah. But I think to answer your question, yeah, he was involved, I don't know how deeply, but he definitely talks about, in lectures about how the first time they started experimenting with lsd, he was involved with that and he, he named.
- [70:48]
Andy Puharich
That was in his army days too.
- [70:50]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [70:50]
Andy Puharich
I must not forget that. He was put into an army division where they were research doing research into drugs that could enhance soldiers abilities. And they were experimenting with all kinds of stuff. So my dad was put obviously on that specific detail and I even have. I have these booklets at home, order forms with marijuana, cocaine on and he could just check a list to order all these drugs for his experiments. That's crazy stuff.
- [71:24]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Army chemical center. He was stationed there for a long time in the 50s. Yeah.
- [71:30]
Interviewer Danny
And so he was ordering all these drugs for. What was the purpose of it?
- [71:35]
Andy Puharich
Well, I mean it was for the military. So obviously they, they didn't want to turn their soldiers into hippies. They wanted to turn them into.
- [71:42]
Interviewer Danny
Right. You know, they didn't want to become anti war.
- [71:45]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. So they were doing all these Experiments. What's that movie with, I forget the name of it, where they're experimenting on doing all these experiments on. On people and trying to get. Make him psychic. What's the name of that film?
- [72:03]
Greg Phillips
The Man Hysteric Goats.
- [72:05]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Man Hoats, Right? Yeah, pretty much that. It's pretty much that was what he was doing.
- [72:11]
Greg Phillips
Wow.
- [72:11]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, but that was because he was, you know, he was drafted that wasn't voluntary. And when he came out, of course he was still. He still had his research lab in Maine and he did a lot of experiments there too. But I don't think he went on with the. With the LSD or any other drugs. He was just mentally interested in the mushroom.
- [72:31]
Greg Phillips
Well, the thing was, is it was the oil of the Amanita muscaria mushroom. You take the oil of it and you rub it into your forehead and that is apparently what enables the connection to happen where somebody becomes more receptive.
- [72:49]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, according to who?
- [72:50]
Greg Phillips
Well, according to him.
- [72:52]
Interviewer Danny
Did he discover this, like in Mexico or something? Or was it, what was this part of some tribal ritual?
- [72:57]
Greg Phillips
I think it was a ritual. Yeah. That he brought back and was. And was experimenting with at his lab. Yeah.
- [73:04]
Interviewer Danny
That's bonkers, dude.
- [73:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. And that's a weird mushroom too, if
- [73:09]
Interviewer Danny
you look it up, the amanita. Yeah, yeah. There's something connected to so many different myths.
- [73:14]
Greg Phillips
Exactly. Yeah. Some guy wrote a book about it. You've probably heard of this guy. I can't remember his name, but he. He kind of took on the mushroom research Buharich was doing to like, present day. And he writes about it.
- [73:29]
Interviewer Danny
And he's alive today.
- [73:29]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah. What's his name? I'll remember. But yeah, he kind of like took the torch there and is doing a bunch of experiments with the Amanita Mascaria. So. Yeah.
- [73:40]
Interviewer Danny
Well, there's that book Road to Eleusis by Karl Ruck and Wasson, Gordon Wasson, and where they basically make the case that, like, all the Eleusinian mysteries that were happening in ancient Greece were like drug. Like these. There was this thing that they were drinking and it was somehow psychedelic and it was some. It was like, somehow related to, like, the origins of religion. And like, if you think about, like, some of the crazy stuff that you read in these ancient texts, like, it seems almost like psychedelic trip. Like a psychedelic trip.
- [74:18]
Greg Phillips
Oh, yeah.
- [74:19]
Interviewer Danny
Is it Harry Stone?
- [74:21]
Andy Puharich
There you go. Yeah.
- [74:21]
Interviewer Danny
Is Harry Stone the guy you were talking about?
- [74:23]
Andy Puharich
Yeah,
- [74:26]
Greg Phillips
yeah, yeah.
- [74:28]
Interviewer Danny
It's also.
- [74:29]
Andy Puharich
So Elvis Huxley was one of my dad's friends as well.
- [74:33]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [74:33]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. He used to come up to the. To the lab.
- [74:37]
Interviewer Danny
No way.
- [74:38]
Andy Puharich
Alice Huxley held me when I was babies. The story they always told me.
- [74:43]
Interviewer Danny
That's a cool story.
- [74:44]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, cool story. I don't remember it. Stuff.
- [74:46]
Greg Phillips
There's a bunch of letters between them from back then.
- [74:49]
Interviewer Danny
So all of the. All of these documents and these tapes that you got, is this stuff that, like, would be considered, like, classified by the government or that they wouldn't be happy that you have?
- [75:08]
Andy Puharich
No, I actually gave all of it to Northwestern University, and they're archiving it, and it's going to be public.
- [75:14]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, no way.
- [75:15]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, yeah. Everything I had.
- [75:17]
Interviewer Danny
But is this the stuff that you think that they were trying to destroy or they didn't want to get out there?
- [75:21]
Andy Puharich
I think they were basically. I mean, I. As I said earlier, it was basically about. About the elf stuff at the time.
- [75:27]
Interviewer Danny
The elf stuff.
- [75:28]
Andy Puharich
The elf. So that's why the house was.
- [75:29]
Interviewer Danny
And that's all the documents and the recordings that you guys have that you were able to get. That's basically all the channeling stuff where they're talking to the Nine.
- [75:37]
Greg Phillips
Well, it's a lot of stuff. I mean, so there's stuff that I've acquired that wasn't in the archives that you had, and that stuff could potentially be of concern. There's a researcher named Dick Russell. Do you know him? He's familiar. Yeah. He wrote a really good book about JFK assassination, and he's been around for a while, but he knew Buharich really well, and he went to Devotion, North Carolina, where Puharich was living before he passed away, and he photocopied all these documents that were sitting around. Did I tell you about this? Because basically, he went to his house, and the caretaker at the time, who. I don't remember who it was, who was living with Andrea, said, it seems his days are numbered and you should just copy everything you can because we don't know what's gonna happen to it. So he copied just everything he could kind of get his hands on. And a lot of that stuff were correspondence and documents between Andrea and all these kind of people he was involved with throughout his career. Intelligence people. Like the stuff that I found. I told you the Allen Dulles correspondence was from that. So there's that stuff that wasn't in the personal archive and in the personal one. Yeah, it was a lot of the tape recordings, but, you know, who's to say? I mean, maybe because no one's really listened to it before other than. Really you. Yeah. So. No. So who's to say that it could. I mean, I agree. I mean, I don't think it's. Obviously, I'm not, like a wanted person here. I mean, but who's to say that some of that stuff couldn't contain potentially classified material information? I don't know, because I don't think people know what's. What's in there and what's on them.
- [77:33]
Andy Puharich
Oh, you found a lot of stuff.
- [77:35]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [77:36]
Andy Puharich
You did some incredible research, and you found a lot of stuff in there that I never knew about.
- [77:40]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. But there's references in the channeling tapes to Russia and different countries in Israel. So, you know, who. Again, it was so long ago, I just. I kind of think, like, why would that matter now? But maybe. Maybe.
- [77:53]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, it seemed like.
- [77:54]
Greg Phillips
From.
- [77:55]
Interviewer Danny
It seemed like. From the stuff that I heard, it seemed to be very much related to, like, geopolitical conflicts.
- [78:02]
Greg Phillips
Right.
- [78:02]
Interviewer Danny
Like, this is gonna happen. We need to do this or something like that.
- [78:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. During the Middle East War. Yeah. So, I mean, one thought, too, is, you know, the idea of. Because there's so many tapes that were saved, and I often think, like, what. Of course you want to. They're your tapes. You record them. But it's kind of interesting to think that those were kept all these years. You know, I don't know what the end goal of that was, you know.
- [78:34]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [78:35]
Greg Phillips
As. Were they recorded to be given to somebody? Were they recorded just so he could have them? I mean, I don't know.
- [78:42]
Andy Puharich
No, my dad was very scientific. He recorded everything. He noted down everything in his journals very specifically and with dates and everything. You know, I mean, he was a scientist, so he didn't. He kept records of everything, fortunately, you know, because you were able to.
- [79:00]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [79:01]
Andy Puharich
Listen to it and decipher a lot of it.
- [79:03]
Greg Phillips
But, yeah, I think, to answer your question, yeah, I think. We don't know, maybe. There could certainly be stuff within there that would be considered classified or would be considered dangerous.
- [79:16]
Interviewer Danny
But you think that the. The ELF stuff was the most sensitive shit that they were probably trying to keep under wraps more than anything.
- [79:25]
Andy Puharich
Well, specifically, when the house was burned down, I mean, after that, you know, my dad would get all upset when he had a flat tire and he'd say that the CIA was behind it. You know, that was obviously bullshit, you know, but the house burning down, that was. That was real. And, you know, I. I only. I only know what I know. And Greg's done a lot of digging, maybe found some more something.
- [79:51]
Interviewer Danny
So after the house burned down, you were already Back in the States, Right.
- [79:56]
Andy Puharich
I was back in the Netherlands.
- [79:57]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, you're back in the Netherlands. At what point did you come back here to spend. To spend time with your dad?
- [80:04]
Andy Puharich
Well, he spent. He spent a couple of years in Mexico and actually hooked up with a bunch of yogis because at that point he was. Obviously, there was a lot of channeling going on and information had gotten through that was going to be a world ending event and he had to gather these people and go to a certain spot in Mexico and they were, you know, that kind of stuff. Survive the catastrophe, whatever. And I was with him in Mexico for about three months.
- [80:36]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, really?
- [80:37]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, it was cool. I learned yoga.
- [80:40]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [80:41]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [80:41]
Interviewer Danny
What were you guys doing down there every day?
- [80:43]
Andy Puharich
Just hanging out this, you know. Camping out? Yeah, camping out and preparing. And there was a specific date when it was all going to end.
- [80:53]
Interviewer Danny
When was the date? Was it Easter?
- [80:55]
Andy Puharich
I'm terrible at dates. I'm terrible. But, but listen, that happened like three times since. I know my dad. We were, you know, somewhere and he had gotten this information that that world was going to end. Yeah, we were preparing and he was going to have to pick up the pieces and stuff like that, you know. And, yeah, now we're still here and we're worried about, you know, it happening tomorrow. Right.
- [81:17]
Interviewer Danny
It was Y2K. And it was also supposed to be this past Easter. The world was supposed to end.
- [81:21]
Andy Puharich
I've kind of. I've gotten a little skeptical. I've sat through many end of the world events, but, you know, and then he came back and he lived in. In devotion for many years. That's where he eventually died too. And where is that? North Carolina.
- [81:41]
Interviewer Danny
North Carolina?
- [81:42]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [81:42]
Interviewer Danny
And were you with him in his final years?
- [81:45]
Andy Puharich
I was with him once in a while because I was still living in the Netherlands. I had my life there, but I would come and visit a lot and take care of him. I would chop wood for him and. But, you know, he was then still investigating a lot of stuff, but he got pretty sick at the end and he had dementia and he didn't do much work after that. He tried to warn people for. And he was making this watch, which was going to protect you against the ELF signal, but that was like a business for him. I'm not sure if that ever really worked. So in the later years of his life, he didn't really do much interesting stuff anymore and he was haunted by the CIA. Did you find anything from those years? I mean, we'd go around and lecture a lot. Yeah, but did you find Interesting documents or.
- [82:47]
Greg Phillips
Well, no, of course, there's the theory that he. His death was caused by, you know, someone who did not want him around.
- [82:57]
Interviewer Danny
And how did he die?
- [83:00]
Andy Puharich
They found him at the bottom of the stairs. Either he had a heart attack or he fell downstairs. He had a big hole in his head. So we never. It was never really determined exactly how he died.
- [83:10]
Interviewer Danny
How old was he?
- [83:12]
Andy Puharich
76. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
- [83:14]
Interviewer Danny
Do you believe that there was any foul play in that, or do you think it was natural?
- [83:18]
Andy Puharich
I think it was natural, yeah. Yeah. He didn't really.
- [83:22]
Interviewer Danny
It didn't seem like at that age, when he's not active in his research, doesn't seem like they would be, like, trying to whack him, you know?
- [83:30]
Greg Phillips
Well, there is a.
- [83:31]
Interviewer Danny
What do I know?
- [83:32]
Greg Phillips
There's a strange connection and. Which is there's a documentary called. About Jacobo Grinberg. Have you heard of him?
- [83:40]
Interviewer Danny
No.
- [83:41]
Greg Phillips
He's a Mexican researcher who was very involved in the same kind of stuff. Telepathy, esp. You should bring something up on this guy because the film's really good. But basically, here he is here, Mexican neurophysiologist. So he was very involved in this type of research, and he and Buharich were very close. And in fact, Andy and sounds like a cult leader. Yeah, they got together in Mexico a couple times. Point of the story is in. In February, in January of 95, which was a month, less than a month before Buhari passed away, this guy disappeared. And to this day, and if you watch the documentary about him, which is really good, they have not figured out what's happened to this guy. It's still considered like an open missing person person situation. They have no idea what happened to him. And he was very closely working with Buhari, and he disappeared. No one knows what happened. There's all these theories. You know, he was kidnapped and he's living in some, you know, CIA bunker and doing research for them. But it's very odd. And I'm not suggesting the foul play thing with Buhari. I'm just saying it was. If you look up the dates, it was like within a month, if not less than a month, that this guy goes missing. Buhari, you know, dies. The Stargate program, which was investigating psychic phenomena with the government that, you know, that comes out publicly in 95 as well, around.
- [85:20]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, really? That's when that was released, all the information on Stargate.
- [85:23]
Greg Phillips
So that was. But the same time. I think, again, you can look at the dates, but it was that January, February, March, 95. So again, I Don't want to be the. The conspiracy guy here, but.
- [85:35]
Interviewer Danny
No, I mean, those are interesting coincidences,
- [85:38]
Greg Phillips
just dots to put together. But I have not found anything when it comes to Andrea that would suggest foul play. No one's ever, I think one person told me, oh, yeah, anymore.
- [85:51]
Andy Puharich
I mean, he was walking around in diapers. You know, he wasn't. He wasn't a threat.
- [85:55]
Interviewer Danny
Wasn't a threat to anybody.
- [85:56]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Now, so I would. I would.
- [85:58]
Interviewer Danny
Do you think there was any sort of, like, secrets he may have held on to until the end that he may have never told anybody?
- [86:05]
Andy Puharich
I doubt it, to be quite honest, because he would still go around and lecture a lot, and he would, you know, he would elaborate on everything he had done. Well, he was pretty much an open book.
- [86:15]
Greg Phillips
I have a comment on that because, you know, in the film, in the beginning, there's a tape recording of Puharich that, that you hear, and that was done in 1995, which was the year he died. He died. And that tape was recorded by Dick Russell, this researcher, I told you, who went to the house and photocopied everything. He went to the hospital and said, I want to get one last interview with this guy. Because I think at the time, Dick Russell was trying to write a book about MK Ultra stuff. So he was like, I want to interview this guy Bukhari. Because, I mean, A, he's not well. B, he's very important. Someone needs to get one last statement from him. So he gave me that tape. And on that tape, he basically asks, like, the same question you ask, in a sense, like, is there anything you haven't said or do you know, things that should be revealed? And Puharich answers. And he says, yeah, it's my. It's what I discovered of how you can channel and communicate with ETs using the Faraday cage method. And that.
- [87:27]
Andy Puharich
Was that a secret?
- [87:30]
Greg Phillips
No, because obviously he was open about it. But I think there was something specific about a certain way you set up the Faraday cage. That was the TD machine and the TD machine that there was some. The TD 100 machine from earlier, the hearing machine. So there's some weird combination between putting someone in a Faraday cage, having them linked up to this hearing machine, and channeling and receiving information. There's some weird something happens with that combination that he's claiming on this tape is a way that is like a surefire way you can communicate and contact entities and other dimensions. And he says, this is the thing that the government was all over me about. And again, is he say that on tape? Yeah.
- [88:23]
Andy Puharich
Okay, so is he.
- [88:24]
Greg Phillips
Was he out of his mind?
- [88:25]
Interviewer Danny
Was he recorded?
- [88:26]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [88:27]
Interviewer Danny
You have this?
- [88:28]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [88:28]
Interviewer Danny
Can we hear it?
- [88:30]
Greg Phillips
Well, and I don't have it now. I mean, I can. Yeah, we can. I can show you. But. So again, that raises some questions. You know, was he just old delusional, but. Or did he really see this as an opportunity to say one final thing like that? I don't know, but all I know is Dick Russell wanted to record him when he was very. At the end of his life. And he says this and what do you make of that?
- [88:55]
Andy Puharich
But that's kind of interesting because my dad never was in the hospital.
- [89:00]
Greg Phillips
Well, he went there one time, I think, before he was let go and went back home, because you can clear. You can hear the, you know, the machines in the background and the dinging. And he was there with that woman, Marianne Shenafield. Remember that woman Marianne? She was like a psychic that.
- [89:22]
Andy Puharich
Oh, right.
- [89:23]
Greg Phillips
She was with him.
- [89:24]
Interviewer Danny
Right.
- [89:25]
Greg Phillips
So apparently there was some incident before he passed away where he had to go for a day or something and get an IV or something like that.
- [89:33]
Andy Puharich
Okay, so.
- [89:34]
Greg Phillips
So that. That's what I know. Is that true? Is that real? I don't know, but he. He's kind of admitting, like, that's the one thing that's real and tangible that he sort of discovered.
- [89:46]
Interviewer Danny
And the Faraday cage idea to me is so wild because, like, one of my out there theories about all this stuff is that, like, all the technology we're surrounded by 24, 7 and like, the cell towers that are around us and all the power lines and all the lighting and the electricity we're surrounded by sort of, like, dims our senses and, like, keeps us docile and maybe, like, shuts the door to any kind of, like, extra thing that might be out there that we can sense. Right. And I think, like, my conspiratorial mind is like, maybe that's on purpose. They're just trying to keep us dumb and concealed so we can't, you know, reach a higher consciousness. And it's just so interesting because you hear stories, people going, like, the Amazon. And like, all of sudden, like, like their senses open up and they can, like, just by listening to the sounds of the birds and the insects and all that, they can, like, detect things that they wouldn't normally be able to detect or, like, sense danger in a certain way they could never detect in a city. And the fact that you can put somebody in a Faraday cage completely shut out from all of that stuff like technology and radio waves and signals.
- [90:56]
Andy Puharich
You should build one.
- [90:57]
Interviewer Danny
It's just very interesting. It's very interesting.
- [91:00]
Andy Puharich
Make this whole room a Faraday.
- [91:02]
Interviewer Danny
That would be incredible. We should do that. Well, you know something we wouldn't have WI fi. Steven. Oh, he could hardwire your computer.
- [91:07]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [91:08]
Greg Phillips
Some people can't handle that. I've heard stories like, I mean, you've actually been in your dad's Faraday, which is great, but, you know, some people can't handle it. They go in and it's so quiet that they, they just like shut down. They can't be in there. But because of how different and just how off they feel. Yes, because this is so quiet. They're not you. Because like you're saying you're. We're so bombarded all the time that to go.
- [91:32]
Interviewer Danny
But I'd be curious to see what would. That. What would happen.
- [91:36]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, well, it also, it leaves room for whatever other things that come through that are not affected by, by physiology, by our physics, the mind. I mean, that's obviously why my dad did those experiments in the Faraday cage, to see if people, you know, would get images through their mind. And that works? That certainly works because you're shielded from everything else. Right. So the stuff that's, you know, from a different dimension or whatever that does pass through, that's what makes it really interesting. How do you build a whole idea? Oh, it's very simple. You just make a copper sheeted box. My dad used to put some, I think a high frequency signal on it, but I don't think even think you need it. You need to ground it.
- [92:26]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [92:26]
Andy Puharich
It's very basic, really. But it has to be totally sealed shut, so nothing there, no leaks or anything.
- [92:33]
Interviewer Danny
Did you ever go in his.
- [92:34]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah, all the time.
- [92:35]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [92:36]
Andy Puharich
Oh yeah, all the time. I used to sit there and meditate. Was incredible.
- [92:39]
Interviewer Danny
What was it? Yeah, what was it?
- [92:40]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, very, very quiet and very, you know, you feel like. I mean, I can imagine why people would get upset because you feel totally alone and isolated. But if you meditate, you, you know, it feels really, really good. So. And it was soundproofed as well. So it was really a very quiet spot to be in. But he did a lot of, a lot of sessions with mediums in there. So a lot of. Most of the channeling he did would do would be in the Faraday Cage for that reason. See, the thing that is not talked about a lot is my dad was obviously also a very spiritual man because he pretty much discovered that everything that makes psychic powers Possible is the part of us that we call soul or consciousness or whatever. You know, that's. That's the. The main thing that makes us what we are. You know, everything else around it is. Is. I don't know what you call it earlier. It's just, you know.
- [93:45]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. One of the most interesting things that I think Isak Bentov said was that we don't have souls. Souls have us. And we're like. Bodies are like carburetors for a car. Like, a soul will change its carburetor every hundred years and find a new body.
- [94:01]
Andy Puharich
Exactly.
- [94:02]
Interviewer Danny
That was kind of. That kind of blew my mind a little bit.
- [94:05]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [94:06]
Andy Puharich
Well, I mean, that's very interesting to think about, you know, I mean. I mean, you know, what. What are we? Are we. We're obviously animals, but we're obviously also animals with incredible capabilities. And. And, you know, the boundary between us and animals is enormous. There's obviously something there that makes us special. And the soul is omni. Powerful. I mean, that's the thing that can bend metal, if you can, you know, if you can set yourself free enough to allow that to happen, which is incredibly hard, you know, so we are kind of imprisoned. Soul is imprisoned in the body, but the soul is on. The soul is en route. The soul is the thing that consciousness is what the universe is made of. That's what my dad told me. You know, it's consciousness. It's. We're all looking at the stars, and now we're looking at the backside of the moon. And it's all very interesting, but the whole. He said the whole universe is made of consciousness. It's conscious that creates matter.
- [95:05]
Interviewer Danny
Yes, yes. Yeah. It certainly makes a ton of sense. And it's also very interesting how, like, young children are more open to this stuff than, like, adults who.
- [95:14]
Andy Puharich
Exactly. Because we get boxed in by our own thoughts and by our own perceptions.
- [95:19]
Interviewer Danny
They've already been hardened to the world, and they've had their. Their reality constructed for them. And like, kids who, you know, they seem to have, like, more kind of like. You know how kind of like sometimes, like, a cat will freak out at something because, like, you know, something's in a room. You'll think, like, oh, my God, my cat's seen a ghost. You know, and, like, dogs can sense things. Like, sometimes dogs don't want to be around certain people or go in certain houses or even if humans. You can. There's. I'm sure there's times you've walked into a room and felt like the energy is just off Here, you know, like, that's certainly real with animals, it seems like. And I'm sure like a, A young child who has not been sort of indoctrinated by the modern world yet or even learned language yet can somehow tap into that same stuff.
- [96:08]
Andy Puharich
You know, there's a lot of children that have recognized recollection of past lives.
- [96:15]
Interviewer Danny
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [96:16]
Andy Puharich
Which they, in which they lose very early on in life. But young children often have, you know, vivid images of life.
- [96:25]
Greg Phillips
Well, that was a big part of the research with the space kids. Yeah, this idea that under hypnosis they would reveal this past life of being from another planet.
- [96:37]
Andy Puharich
That was a big aspect of my dad's work, really was, you know, I don't know if you know about the space kids program. He.
- [96:44]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. Who were the space kids?
- [96:46]
Andy Puharich
Space kids were basically mostly young people. That's why they're called kids that he would meet that would have certain abilities and he wanted to develop them. And basically he had them come together at his house in Ossining and tried to educate him and took him into Faraday Cage, did sessions with him, put them in trance to see what, you know, what they would reveal. But basically he thought these kids had extra powers or whatever and he wanted to use them. Use in quotes, educate them in how to make a transformation in the world of some kind. But this was also all channeled to him that he should do these things and get these groups together. I was in one of these space kids groups myself once one summer, and you know, he had people come in that taught us about our dreams, taught us about hypnosis, taught us about the soul, what we really are. And you know, he tried to educate these young peoples and then later on, and that was the mindlink summer that I wasn't there, that I didn't attend, that you talk about in the, in the documentary a lot.
- [98:07]
Greg Phillips
It was basically this big group of space kids and, and adults and other researchers. They all joined at. At Ossining at his house and they did this big mind link where apparently they. And I don't know if you experienced this part of it, but they would do, yeah, these sessions where they would go like days without talking to one another and they would just try to
- [98:33]
Andy Puharich
build up tune their minds. They wanted to literally link their minds for what was the purpose, you know.
- [98:42]
Greg Phillips
Well, the purpose that we suspect from looking at his writings and so forth is basically like they thought that with enough people in a circle with all of their minds tuned to the right frequency at the right time that that could Bring in a stronger connection to, you know, an entity in another dimension. And the person sitting in the middle was the receiver. So all the people around were putting the energy to that person in the middle. And apparently there's stories that was so intense that the first woman who was going to be the receiver in the middle, like, fainted and had needed medical attention, so they had to bring in a younger person to do it. So that all that. Those stories make you just question, like, what's. What's going on here? You know, like, why would this be this hoaxed, you know, event? It is strange.
- [99:37]
Interviewer Danny
Well, like, and then there's also videos of. Of exorcists, like, pulling demons out of people on stage, you know, and, like, people, like, you see the videos of the guy who, like, who, like, goes attack demon or whatever and, like, throws this invisible force at these people, and they're. Their belief is so strong in, like, demons and angels and all this stuff. This guy's convinced them that they have a demon or whatever, and then he, like, cast the demon away, and the person will literally fall, like, fly 10ft backwards.
- [100:07]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [100:08]
Interviewer Danny
You know, it's like the power of belief is so incredibly strong. You know, it's like what the mind is capable of. It's, like, almost impossible to comprehend. Like, how much of this is. Is just insatiable belief in something. Yeah, this.
- [100:29]
Greg Phillips
This guy, bro, I don't think this was necessarily happening. And.
- [100:40]
Interviewer Danny
But there's also videos of, like, Bob, you know, Bob Larson, this exorcist guy we had on, who would do exorcisms on people. People, right. And. And, like, like, picking people out of the crowd. And like, this young girl would, like, start talking in tongues. Like, Like, Satan is, like, channel. Like they're channeling Satan. And it's like, is this person really just acting for the camera or is that. Do they actually believe? Because this exorcist is there telling them they're possessed by the devil. Is this some sort of, like, subconscious thing that's, like, coming forth, you know? I don't know.
- [101:13]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, well, and it's strange. And to give a more concrete example of what they were doing, the mindlink and the group, the Space Kids, Buhari would often talk about this idea that he was receiving higher physics from these entities and that certain people. Like, we talked about this woman, Sharon, who was this psychic that he worked with, who apparently was very, you know, like, much better than a lot of the other people who were there at receiving. And she would bring through equations and physics and things that Puharich I think believed were a higher form or a different type of physics that was coming from another world. And he felt as though if he could get more and enough of it that he could write it all down and make sense of it and sort of usher in this whole new way of thinking about the universe and thinking about, okay, this is how the communication works between us and these entities. So a lot of times these space kids would channel like weird information, equations and things that had to do with technology and weird formulas. And I think a big part of it was Buhari saying, let me try to make sense of this and let me try to get more of this. Yeah, that goes right to your point, is like, and that's the weird thing about the channeling that I always thought is like, how is a, you know, 22 year old girl sitting there and just, and just saying, okay, I guess I'm just going to make all this stuff up now and just start saying it. I mean it's possible, but it just seems odd, like there's something else going on. I don't know what is it? A being talking through her. I know, I don't know. But it does seem like there's something weird with the mind and, and the people and the connection and something. Because I just find it unlikely, you know, again, we were talking like a lot of channel stuff I'm sure is bogus, but I just find it unlikely that a lot of these people, especially back then, the people he was working with were just like making it up. That's it, that's the answer. They were all just making it up and some of this stuff. I just think even people who were around back then would say like, oh, this woman was. No way she would be able to even like come up with this kind of thing, you know, with all due respect, she's just not smart, intelligent enough to just make stuff up like this. So it's very complex.
- [103:41]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [103:42]
Greg Phillips
So I, I just don't rule it all, all away with. It's just people making it up.
- [103:46]
Interviewer Danny
Wasn't there some connection to Tesla? Wasn't he writing Tesla or something?
- [103:51]
Greg Phillips
No. Yes.
- [103:53]
Interviewer Danny
Did I make that up?
- [103:54]
Andy Puharich
No, no, no, no. My dad, obviously, my dad was really interested in working with Nikola Tesla and all the technology that he came up with. The manuscript we're talking about, about the elf is called Tesla's magnifying transmitter. And the elf, because that's basically what that transmitter was, was a Nikola Tesla invention, you know, and Tesla, I mean that's, you know, there's a lot of Mysteries about Tesla as well. What did he invent? Did he, you know, did he take inventions to the grave? Did. Were all of his inventions taken by the government?
- [104:27]
Interviewer Danny
Right.
- [104:28]
Andy Puharich
You know, and all that stuff?
- [104:30]
Greg Phillips
Well, there's that whole Trump. Weird Trump connection is, what was it his uncle or something?
- [104:34]
Interviewer Danny
Oh yeah, Trump's uncle.
- [104:35]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [104:36]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, he was connected to Townsend Brown.
- [104:38]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. And he took all these Tesla patents or something. I can't remember the exact connection, but it was, it was either his uncle or something.
- [104:49]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, it was his uncle.
- [104:50]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. That was. Came into possession of all these Tesla patents that no one has ever had before and he's the one who somehow has them now.
- [104:57]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, he was connect. Dude, Trump's uncle was connected to like all these people in like aerospace research, including like Townsend Brown, who created this, this way, this propulsion called electrographics, which was like, I can't even explain it in words, but it's like basically, you know, it's kind of has a lot to do with like how the, the stealth bomber was engineered and all this stuff. And allegedly there's claims that a lot of it went dark and went like private into like the military, like black budget sector that doesn't see the light of day.
- [105:33]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I personally did a lot of research into Tesla. I even wrote a film script about him. I went to all the places where he worked and where he was born and where he lived.
- [105:44]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [105:44]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I did a lot of research and what I came up with is that, you know, obviously at the end of his life or during his life, he was always depending on funding. Right. Because he didn't make any money. He needed his research to be funded. And what happens is you always make the story a little better when you're looking for funding. Right.
- [106:06]
Greg Phillips
Because.
- [106:07]
Andy Puharich
Because you want the funding. And he was very dramatic. He would put on these big shows and he would, you know, display all these things he was working on, but a lot of it kind of never really worked, but he was just trying to get funding, so he kind of exaggerated his findings and the technology and I think a lot of that's been blown out of proportion. Yeah, you know, you know, you know what I'm saying?
- [106:31]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, totally.
- [106:32]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. And I think that I've seen my dad do exactly the same thing. He was working on his water splitting invention where he said he, he worked on it for a long time. He had this. He was splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen where you put in less energy than came out. So it's like almost a free energy device. And he worked on it for A long time I worked on that with him. And I know that in the end the results were not what he was looking for, but he was being backed by certain people so he kind of manipulated the outcome a little bit. That's when I saw how that mechanism works. You know, you're trying to get funding.
- [107:14]
Interviewer Danny
Right.
- [107:14]
Andy Puharich
And you exaggerated a little bit. Now you can read on the Internet everywhere that my dad did this invention and you know, and there's a lot of people trying to copy it and
- [107:24]
Greg Phillips
it's basically using storage like that get
- [107:26]
Interviewer Danny
out of hand using water as fuel.
- [107:28]
Greg Phillips
That was the gist of it is basically you could power your automobile with.
- [107:32]
Andy Puharich
Well, yeah, I mean if you, if you, if you split hydrogen into, I mean water into hydrogen and oxygen, you have the best fuel there is. You know, hydrogen burns with oxygen and the result is water. Problem is you have to put in so much energy to split it that it's not worth doing it. I mean they make hydrogen by electrolysis. I think that's what it's called in English. Electrolysis.
- [107:57]
Interviewer Danny
Electrolysis.
- [107:58]
Andy Puharich
Electrolysis, right. So my dad was inventing a way of putting, you know, using his TD 100 device to split the water in a more economical way where so you would get energy. Wow.
- [108:13]
Greg Phillips
And people claim like I never saw any evidence to this but that he was driving around his rv.
- [108:20]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, well that's the story. He said he was driving his RV around Canada, Mexico.
- [108:25]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [108:26]
Andy Puharich
On the water. But unfortunately it wasn't true. It was not true.
- [108:30]
Greg Phillips
Well, the big conspiracy is that guy who did invent some sort of water powered car was found, was whacked.
- [108:37]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [108:38]
Greg Phillips
Stanley something.
- [108:39]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [108:39]
Greg Phillips
But I think if I'm not mistaken, what Andre was doing was much before this. He could have somehow ripped off, taken what he was doing.
- [108:49]
Andy Puharich
And listen, his research, I mean it was really good. And I worked on, on the project with him and we, you know, know we would machine parts together and stuff and you know, come up with new ways of experimenting. But you know, the amount of an. And eventually we went to, to some university, I forget where it was to have the whole system tested with, with machines that were calibrated properly so you could get a real truthful reading on the amount of energy you were putting in and the amount of energy you were putting out. And I remember well how depressed my dad was because the results were not good. So a lot of stuff. And I think the same thing happened with Tesla. I think a lot of his so called incredible inventions that were never replicated were kind of blown out of proportions by himself.
- [109:47]
Interviewer Danny
Wasn't Tesla able to create like an earthquake device? Yes, like resonated and could bring down a building?
- [109:52]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, but that. That's.
- [109:54]
Interviewer Danny
Was that fake or was that real?
- [109:55]
Andy Puharich
No, that's real. That's.
- [109:56]
Interviewer Danny
That was real.
- [109:56]
Andy Puharich
That's regular physics. You can do that. You can make something resonate. If you find.
- [110:01]
Interviewer Danny
I heard a story, they were doing a test or something like in the bottom of a building and it started to collapse on New York. Yeah, that was in New York.
- [110:08]
Andy Puharich
That was real story. Yeah, yeah. And he smashed the device to. To stop it because he had built a device which was basically working by itself. I mean, resonant frequency is really interesting. That's what the TD100 device is about. You know, if you can get something to resonate in its own frequency, it's going to fall apart eventually and you can, you know, Wow. I mean, it's really interesting stuff, definitely, but there's so many big labs all over the world experimenting with this stuff and, you know, nobody's come up with a true free energy device so far.
- [110:44]
Interviewer Danny
That we know of.
- [110:45]
Andy Puharich
That we know of. True. That I will not deny.
- [110:49]
Interviewer Danny
And that's what leads to all the crazy conspiracy theories, you know, surrounding Tesla.
- [110:55]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [110:55]
Interviewer Danny
Because if he was able to create like that, that's not something you hear about today. Like, who uses a earthquake machine? You know, I mean, I can imagine what it could be used for, like in a nefarious way by like a. A nation state or something, or like stuff like that. But like, how did Tesla die
- [111:14]
Andy Puharich
alone in his hotel room.
- [111:16]
Greg Phillips
But it was raided, right? That's the story.
- [111:18]
Andy Puharich
Well, afterwards he was. He probably was raided by. By officials or whatever. He took all his documents.
- [111:24]
Interviewer Danny
So is there like a conspiracy behind how he was killed? Like, was he.
- [111:28]
Andy Puharich
Or just.
- [111:28]
Greg Phillips
You would know better than.
- [111:29]
Andy Puharich
He was a very old, sick.
- [111:31]
Interviewer Danny
He was.
- [111:31]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was really old. And he wasn't doing anything. Anything anymore. He was going out and feeding the pigeons every day.
- [111:36]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [111:37]
Andy Puharich
You know that kind of scenario.
- [111:38]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, one of the. One of the. Another, you know, on the subject of, like, how the truth can get blown out of proportion over time is I had this gentleman on the podcast a couple of years ago, Christopher Dunn, who wrote a book about. Called the Giza Power Plant. Basically how he thinks like, the Great Pyramid was like some sort of a. A machine to create energy. This guy was like. He was an aerospace engineer and, you know, when he first discovered the pyramid and looked at, like the inside of it and all the chambers and how it was Built. He's like, oh my God. He's like, this thing is like a functional. This thing was built as to for some purpose and it had some function. Like, this was a clearly a. A machine. And there he found. There's a lot of theories out there that like Tesla was obsessed with the pyramids and people think that they were like a free energy device or whatever. And then he like dug deeper into it. I think he said there was absolutely zero connection between Tesla and the pyramids.
- [112:35]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah.
- [112:36]
Interviewer Danny
Like, yeah. That was one of the shocking things to me. He's like, yeah, he's like, I found no evidence that Tesla was ever interested to the p. In the pyramids or even went to the pyramids at all.
- [112:44]
Andy Puharich
Found any.
- [112:45]
Interviewer Danny
I'm like, wow. Because that. You Google Tesla, the pyramids, the shit's everywhere.
- [112:48]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, my dad's. My dad was very interested in the pyramids. He was actually able to spend a couple of nights alone in the. And the Pyramid of Giza.
- [112:57]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. Yeah. There's a crazy frequency inside.
- [113:00]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. He wanted to feel and measure.
- [113:02]
Greg Phillips
And we have the tapes. He recorded himself in the pyramid and he did a channeling session with a really space kid.
- [113:12]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, in the pyramid in like one of the chambers, like the king's chamber.
- [113:16]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. So. So they're in the king's chamber. He was with. It was him. It was Solvay Clark, who was a woman who was, I don't know if we would say an assistant or assistant.
- [113:29]
Andy Puharich
And they were engaged at some point.
- [113:31]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, she was like, helped him with stuff. And so it was Puharich her. And then this space kid who's this woman who at the time was named Ann, she's since changed her name. She's actually in the film. She's one of the space kids. But they went and they did a session in there and they were trying to telepathically link with the people back in Ossining at his house. So the session is basically this space kid linking up with people back there and they were exchanging information and she.
- [114:05]
Interviewer Danny
This was recorded.
- [114:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. And she was saying, like, I can. I can see them now and what are they doing? And Melanie, they say, everything's fine here and they're. They're communicating. Yeah. And you know, his theory, of course too is like, you're saying because of the frequency in the. In. In the pyramid, that is sort of like a mega Faraday cage effect, where it's just like, you know, the Faraday cage effect times a million, because you're in there. And so that made Them like, super receptive.
- [114:37]
Andy Puharich
Well, you know that the pyramid was originally covered in copper, right?
- [114:43]
Greg Phillips
No.
- [114:43]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. I mean, now, is that a fact? Yeah, I think that's a fact. I'm not positive, but I think that they found that originally it was totally covered in copper. And of course, all the copper was stolen over the years and. And.
- [114:55]
Greg Phillips
Well, that's really interesting because that's.
- [114:57]
Andy Puharich
You should look that up.
- [114:58]
Interviewer Danny
I heard that there were casing stones on the outside of it. I didn't hear that there was copper.
- [115:02]
Greg Phillips
Well, because copper is the whole thing with the Faraday cage. And apparently the 9. In the early channeled session, the 9 would say, you have to use more copper, and copper is the key to this kind of communication. And so much so that they would say, if you're the psychic you're working with, they should put on a copper bracelet.
- [115:24]
Andy Puharich
I was the one making all the copper bracelets.
- [115:27]
Greg Phillips
Yes. Because if the copper's in connection with your skin, that's enabling the communication to happen easier with. With less transmit, you know, better transmission. So all these people were in this little bracelet that had like a copper, little rectangle that was connected to their skin with the crucial. So, I mean, that pyramid. I never knew about the pyramid thing. That's pretty interesting.
- [115:49]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I can't. And I'm not sure if I heard this correctly, if I'm recalling it correctly, but I think you look that up.
- [115:56]
Interviewer Danny
He's looking it up.
- [115:58]
Andy Puharich
So I. Well, I'll show you what with the.
- [116:00]
Greg Phillips
The AI shows.
- [116:02]
Interviewer Danny
Steve's an AI guy.
- [116:03]
Andy Puharich
Oh, that's his.
- [116:04]
Interviewer Danny
No, but it.
- [116:05]
Andy Puharich
I did find some stuff about that. The Egyptians did use a ton of copper enough that it polluted their. Right.
- [116:13]
Greg Phillips
Their area.
- [116:14]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. Copper was one of the metals they used for. For tools and stuff. Copper. They had copper tools and pounding stones. Allegedly. That's how they built the pyramid.
- [116:24]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Right.
- [116:25]
Greg Phillips
And Buhari was also very early on talking about the pyramid connection. You know, that. The one in China, you know, Egyptian pyramids and these different ones around the globe and how they're all connected and that kind of thing, which I think is now being talked about a lot more and looked into. Like, he was talking about that in early 70s.
- [116:45]
Interviewer Danny
I'm really curious, Steve, what can you find? Like, is there any like, known sort of effect of copper on skin? Like, if you wear copper jewelry, is there any sort of, like, I don't know, like, benefits or like health benefits or sort of like.
- [117:05]
Andy Puharich
Well, don't you remember in the. In the. When the pandemic was going on, apparently if you use copper, copper repels any germs.
- [117:15]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [117:16]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [117:16]
Interviewer Danny
I have never heard that.
- [117:17]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah, You've never heard that?
- [117:19]
Greg Phillips
No.
- [117:19]
Interviewer Danny
Have you heard that?
- [117:20]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Copper. If you wear copper, copper will. The germs will not stick to copper. They don't like it. Tell me if I'm lying. I could be wrong, but I remember I made this little copper stick at the time that I would use to touch things. Wow. In the beginning when I was very paranoid.
- [117:39]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All this space kit. I mean, one of.
- [117:42]
Andy Puharich
Copper is a really interesting metal. I mean, it has all these. These spectacular properties that have been used all over the place.
- [117:50]
Interviewer Danny
Any luck, Steve?
- [117:51]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [117:52]
Interviewer Danny
I mean, a copper conspiracy, bro.
- [117:54]
Greg Phillips
There's something about copper that's very important too.
- [117:57]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [117:57]
Interviewer Danny
Copper does not have widely proven physiological benefits. Steve's like a.
- [118:02]
Greg Phillips
He's a.
- [118:02]
Interviewer Danny
He's a Google bootlicker. He just likes to find whatever the consensus is. A Google AI. Copper does not have any proven physiological benefits when worn as jewels. Jewelry though it is a potent antimicrobial and effectively kills most germs on contact. What?
- [118:18]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, there you go.
- [118:19]
Interviewer Danny
A metal kills germs.
- [118:21]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [118:24]
Interviewer Danny
Why am I just learning this today?
- [118:27]
Greg Phillips
I don't.
- [118:28]
Interviewer Danny
Okay. Copper is an essential trace mineral for human health when ingested, aiding in red blood cell formation and bone health. The benefit of wearing a. The benefits of wearing are largely anecdotal and not supported by rigorous scientific evidence. Pain Arthritis. Clinical trials have repeatedly shown that copper bracelets are generally ineffective in managing pain, stiffness, or physical function in patients with osteoarthritis or rheumatoid arthritis. Skin. Skin health. Some studies on copper infused fabrics like socks or pillowcases suggest that they can improve skin elect elasticity, reduce fine lines, and even treat fungal infections like athletes foot. That is bizarre.
- [119:15]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [119:16]
Greg Phillips
So think that the. The Faraday cage that was used during these channeling sessions was lined with copper. So what's that about?
- [119:27]
Interviewer Danny
That. That's interesting. Copper's weird, huh?
- [119:30]
Andy Puharich
It's a great insulator, basically. Not much can get through.
- [119:35]
Greg Phillips
All right.
- [119:35]
Andy Puharich
All our wires are made of copper too.
- [119:38]
Greg Phillips
I think you guys definitely got a copper. I think
- [119:44]
Andy Puharich
your whole studio with Copperhead,
- [119:46]
Greg Phillips
you still got to build a Faraday cage in here.
- [119:49]
Interviewer Danny
That would be cool, but I don't know the logistics of doing that.
- [119:53]
Greg Phillips
Is there anything.
- [119:54]
Interviewer Danny
Is there any downside other than the price of turning this into a Faraday cage?
- [119:57]
Andy Puharich
I don't know.
- [119:58]
Interviewer Danny
If.
- [119:58]
Greg Phillips
So you could just build one out there, like a freestanding one?
- [120:01]
Andy Puharich
Well, no one sell no One's cell phone will work in here. They don't have to turn them off anymore. That's cool, right?
- [120:06]
Interviewer Danny
That's very cool.
- [120:07]
Greg Phillips
There's a guy out there who I got connected with who's trying to replicate a lot of the Faraday K. GSP experiments. And he was wanting to see some of the early research Buhari did in his documents, because he was. He was one of these guys I was connected with. Sky Watcher. You know, the whole Sky Watcher thing, it was popular. It kind of faded out. It was like last year. The psionic assets.
- [120:32]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, yes, yes, I remember that.
- [120:34]
Greg Phillips
It was a guy involved with that, and he was very interested in the Faraday cage stuff. And he was like, I want to look at the original design of Puharich's Faraday cage. Because I. And apparently he had money. He's like, I want to replicate this and try to do these experiments. And I don't know where it went, but he was very serious about it, so.
- [120:54]
Interviewer Danny
Interesting.
- [120:55]
Greg Phillips
Because that's what's interesting, too. I mean, just, you know, a lot of people, you don't see people doing these kinds of experiments anymore.
- [121:04]
Andy Puharich
You know, psychic Faraday cage isn't all that complicated. All you just need is a metal casing, and if something is totally in metal, nothing will get through. And copper is really good, is really a good metal to use for it.
- [121:19]
Interviewer Danny
But I would love to see a Faraday cage sensory deprivation tank all in one. What would that. That would probably teleport your ass to another dimension. Yeah. I wonder if anyone's ever done that, bro. And then combine that with, like, you know, some psychedelic mushrooms or something. Or even marijuana, I'm sure would be me nuts.
- [121:43]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, yeah.
- [121:44]
Interviewer Danny
Because John Lily was. He invented the sensory deprivation tank, I think.
- [121:47]
Andy Puharich
Right? Really?
- [121:48]
Interviewer Danny
There's a whole documentary about that.
- [121:49]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. A friend of mine did one of those for the first time recently. He was saying it was just mind blowing. Yeah, the sensory deprivation thing. Never done it.
- [122:00]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, I've never done it either, but I would be super. I would certainly be interested in it for sure. Yeah, yeah. And so in the Faraday Cage channeling sessions, I don't remember if I asked you this already, but, like, how much was. How much were psychedelics incorporated into those? If ever. Never, maybe.
- [122:25]
Andy Puharich
I mean, obviously people that showed up on my dad's house were using marijuana. I mean. Right, right.
- [122:31]
Interviewer Danny
Popular.
- [122:32]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, Very popular in the time. And my dad was opposed to it all, and. But yeah, I'm sure it's been used. And of course, you know, talk about the mushroom.
- [122:44]
Greg Phillips
Right.
- [122:45]
Andy Puharich
And, you know, here's the book.
- [122:46]
Interviewer Danny
And wasn't there somebody involved in all of this that was connected to Bell Laboratories or something?
- [122:52]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, Arthur Young.
- [122:53]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [122:53]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [122:54]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [122:55]
Interviewer Danny
What was his connection?
- [122:56]
Greg Phillips
He was part of the Roundtable foundation in the early 50s.
- [123:01]
Interviewer Danny
Okay.
- [123:01]
Greg Phillips
So he was there at the lab a lot, and he was part of the early experiments. He was sitting in on a lot of the sessions. But, you know, to go back to the whole origin of the nine and the conspiracies, Arthur Young, he was married to. You might have to look this up, Steve, because I don't. I'm not sure I'm correct. He was married to Ruth Forbes Payne, who was the. The woman who Lee Harvey Oswald was living at her house. And he has some very bizarre connection to. Oh, I remember we talked about this Lee Harvey Oswald. And so people think, oh, you know, this is somehow tied into the JFK assassination and crazy stuff. But who. But, yeah, Young was married to.
- [123:49]
Interviewer Danny
This is not in the film, this connection, Right.
- [123:51]
Greg Phillips
No, Lavenda, Peter Lavender, that author, he told me this. He writes tons of stuff about this.
- [123:56]
Interviewer Danny
I was, like, wondering. I'm like, this feels like deja vu. I remember Peter Lavenda told me this story.
- [124:00]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. And so Young was connected to somebody who was extremely connected to Lee Harvey Oswald. And so there's that whole thing. But, no, he was just like a New Age kind of researcher who. He invented that Bell helicopter. Very connected guy. He went on to start this consciousness research society in Berkeley and everything. But he was involved very early on, in fact, in some of those early channeling tapes with Dr. Venati. You can hear him asking questions.
- [124:30]
Andy Puharich
Oh, really?
- [124:30]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [124:31]
Andy Puharich
Okay, I didn't know that.
- [124:32]
Interviewer Danny
And isn't there some sort of connection with all of this and this. The Montauk thing? Montauk, New York or something?
- [124:39]
Greg Phillips
Well, I. Yeah, I guess. Like people. Yeah. So this, you know, the Stranger Things, the show is apparently based off the Montauk program, or Montauk project, which is Montauk, New York, Long Island. And apparently there was some facility there that was some government facility that was doing research with kids and psychic kids and teleportation and the whole Philadelphia Experiment and the teleporting. I mean, Tesla had something to do with that, right? The teleporting, the ship. Did you hear that story? There's so much.
- [125:16]
Andy Puharich
I'm not sure if Tesla was actually involved with that, but it was based
- [125:21]
Interviewer Danny
maybe on something Annie Jacobson writes about in her phenomena book about the Philadelphia Experiment, how they were doing crazy Tests on sailors.
- [125:29]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, that's.
- [125:30]
Interviewer Danny
That's what it was like shooting them with directed energy.
- [125:32]
Andy Puharich
I really have to go to.
- [125:33]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We'll be right back.
- [125:35]
Greg Phillips
So when I was trying to make this film, you know, one of my first thoughts was, okay, let's try to get a hold of these space kids.
- [125:44]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [125:45]
Greg Phillips
Because, you know, at the time in the 70s, there were teenagers. But it was actually difficult. I mean, so Heidi was one of like 10. Because in one of barges notebooks, he had a list of all the people who were there at the time. So I did basically just went through and was like, okay, Google, Facebook, trying to find people. But only a few of them were willing to talk. Really?
- [126:09]
Interviewer Danny
Really.
- [126:09]
Greg Phillips
A reason the film actually took so long is that it really took a while to earn the trust of some of these space kids. Because, you know, they haven't come out before to tell this story. They've never been public.
- [126:23]
Interviewer Danny
Was there anyone that you really wanted to talk on film that you couldn't get?
- [126:29]
Greg Phillips
Yes, this woman, Sharon, which is a good transition. This woman. So one of the space kids. So this woman is one of the space kids that was willing to talk. And she's in the film. She's very nice. She was actually at the house during the fire. She had to jump. Climb out the window and climb down on the roof. And so she had quite an experience there. But there was one space kid, Sharon, who, if you recall, when we talked, I was kind of hesitant to bring up a certain name of one of the space kids. Because she was so involved and secretive and all this. But it's this woman, Sharon, who has changed her name many times. I think back then it was Sharon Jacobson. But I know at one point she went by McCann, right?
- [127:19]
Andy Puharich
Her maiden name is McCann.
- [127:20]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, McCann.
- [127:20]
Andy Puharich
And she married this guy called Jacobson. Jacobson. Yeah.
- [127:25]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. So she was one of the space kids who was very involved. There's a lot of pictures of her, but a lot of the channeling tapes is her. It's her voice. It's her doing the channeling, really. And so many people. And you can. I mean, you knew her. But the. The point is a lot of people involved back then, the space kids and some of the scientists, like, they thought that she was the equivalent of 11 from Stranger Things. This very talented, legitimate, real psychic who could do things, who could bring in information. So after a certain year, I don't know, 76 or something, she just disappeared. And a lot of people around, I mean, you can comment were like, we have no idea what happened to her. We don't know where she. She went. We've never been able to talk to her. I went to great lengths to try to find this woman. I mean, literally hiring a PI basically, at one point, because she's so important, because she's on so many tapes. She was so involved, and I was like, if there's one person to get to talk about this story, to talk about what was really going on, it'd be her. And she's completely mysterious. I've never. No one's ever been able to. Been able to contact her. So that's one of the people that, like, it'd be so interesting if she saw this film and saw this or whatever and came out of the woodworks.
- [128:53]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Ron, if you. If you're watching, just come on. Yeah, you know.
- [128:56]
Interviewer Danny
Well, you met her.
- [128:58]
Greg Phillips
He.
- [128:58]
Andy Puharich
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I knew her very well.
- [129:00]
Interviewer Danny
What was she like? What was so special about her?
- [129:04]
Andy Puharich
I think basically what was special about it is what she channeled. I mean, apart from that, she was just a woman with a child, and I would go shopping with her, you know. But in the channeling and her channeling, she was, as you say, apparently she had all the scientific information that would be channeled through her. That's what made her special.
- [129:28]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. She was the one who was able to bring through this very complex physics, and apparently, for whatever reason, the other side, space kids couldn't, and she could. She was the only one who, in trance, in the Faraday cage, would bring through very, very advanced information. And so he. Puharich, is really, like, leaning on her a lot to do a lot of these sessions. And then there's stories that she.
- [129:52]
Interviewer Danny
How old was she at the time?
- [129:54]
Andy Puharich
Late 20s.
- [129:56]
Greg Phillips
Late 20s? Mid. Late 20s. But then there's stories. I don't know if you know any truth to this, that apparently, due to the intensity of the channeling and the session, she had some sort of.
- [130:06]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, I was there.
- [130:07]
Greg Phillips
Manic break or something.
- [130:08]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, she totally fell apart. We had to rush her to the hospital.
- [130:11]
Greg Phillips
What?
- [130:12]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, there was talk about negative energy being influenced, and we were doing a session, there was a lot of us gathered around and she fell apart. And my father was a medical doctor, but he rushed her to the hospital because she was dying, basically. Yeah. I don't know why.
- [130:34]
Greg Phillips
Well, there's this idea that when somebody. So this other channel, Phyllis, the older woman that he worked with a lot, there's this idea that when you get into the state to channel your body, you know, it's the typical Your body's being taken over by another entity, and basically you don't have control over your body or functions because it's being controlled by an outside entity. So there's stories of this other woman, too, having similar. I don't know if there's anything that bad, but she would have incidents where she would, you know, collapse or needed medical attention because she wasn't in control of her. Of her body while doing these sessions. So Sharon. Yeah, she's one of the people that I was like, man, I wish she would have talked. But at the same time, it leaves this mystery. Now to this story of. There's this one space kid who was the best of them all, who has just dropped off the face of the earth. And everyone. Very normal, sane people who knew her or who were around, every one of them was like, yeah, no idea what happened to her. Really strange. She just kind of.
- [131:41]
Interviewer Danny
How many people did you talk to that knew her?
- [131:44]
Greg Phillips
Several. Yeah, several. One of the guys in the film, this. That guy, Leon Burr, he was a guy from London, and he got involved, and he was just sort of a helper. He wasn't really a psychic or anything, but he knew her very well. And he was like, I'm gonna try to find her for you. And it was really creepy. We did, like, the classic thing where we found this address on Google Earth that came up on one of these sites as her address. And we go to it on Google Earth and it's just this, like, ramshackle, you know how. Empty house and there's, you know, it's basically run down. And all her other addresses didn't come up with anything. So it's weird. I mean, I don't know what to say other than maybe she just wanted to distance herself. And there's no. Nothing weird about it, but it does seem like she's making a very serious effort to not be discovered or not be looked up. So she's the one that I was like, man, that would be cool.
- [132:42]
Interviewer Danny
But are there any photos of her anywhere?
- [132:44]
Greg Phillips
Many. They're in the film. Yeah. Blonde hair is very pretty.
- [132:47]
Interviewer Danny
Can you find them, Steve?
- [132:49]
Greg Phillips
I don't. They wouldn't come up on Google. There's nothing.
- [132:52]
Andy Puharich
Oh, no.
- [132:52]
Interviewer Danny
They're only in your movie.
- [132:54]
Greg Phillips
Can't find anything on her, literally.
- [132:55]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [132:56]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Even this, like, PI. I mean, I don't know if it's, like, legal to talk about if. What a PI. But I don't. He even. He was like, yeah, I don't. I'm not coming up with anything here, but there's nothing that would indicate that she passed away because, you know, back then she was young. I mean, it's not like now she would be really old. She'd still be.
- [133:15]
Interviewer Danny
So she was in her twenties. In what year? What year would that have been?
- [133:19]
Greg Phillips
Mid. Mid century 70s. Yes.
- [133:22]
Interviewer Danny
For what decade?
- [133:22]
Greg Phillips
Rather 70s. Mid to late 70s.
- [133:25]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, okay.
- [133:27]
Greg Phillips
So that's. That's a thing. And. Yeah, I don't. I don't know what. I mean.
- [133:34]
Interviewer Danny
So when she went to the hospital, what ended up happening? Do you know? Do you remember?
- [133:38]
Andy Puharich
Well, they saved her. I mean, obviously.
- [133:40]
Interviewer Danny
And she was about to die.
- [133:42]
Andy Puharich
Well, yeah. My father couldn't. Couldn't get her vitals back, so.
- [133:47]
Interviewer Danny
Holy.
- [133:47]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, it was. There was real panic. I remember that well, it was a real panic. So. Yeah. But you know, there's. There's. There was a bunch of other space kids were. That were interesting as well. Interesting people, interesting abilities.
- [134:03]
Greg Phillips
Well, that goes back to the like. So you're going to hoax almost dying here? So there's so many things that happened in this story that once you're kind of skeptical, all of a sudden you're like, well, that's a pretty serious event to kind of just have been made up. But it all goes back to this idea that the body's being taken over. Kind of like an exorcism thing, I guess, because it's not you and you're channeling a different. Different. Different entity and. And so forth. So. So she's somebody who. Yeah, it'd be really interesting if she came out after all this, but who knows?
- [134:43]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, like if they're.
- [134:44]
Greg Phillips
You could have her on if they're channeling it.
- [134:47]
Interviewer Danny
Like, I guess they're. They're channeling these. So the Nine are what, they were channeling?
- [134:53]
Greg Phillips
Yes.
- [134:54]
Andy Puharich
Okay, well, Siobhan wasn't channeling the Nine. She was channeling some other entity.
- [134:59]
Greg Phillips
Well, yeah, there was different entities all the time that would sort of come through that had various names that were very kind of sci fi sounding. But if I'm not mistaken, the Nine were kind of the. The. They were above everything.
- [135:15]
Andy Puharich
Head honchos.
- [135:16]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. So even if it was a different
- [135:18]
Interviewer Danny
entity, they were above the Rothschilds.
- [135:21]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [135:22]
Interviewer Danny
Wow.
- [135:22]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [135:23]
Interviewer Danny
That's crazy.
- [135:24]
Andy Puharich
They called me Tesla. They would all. No, seriously. It said I was Nikola Tesla in my past lifetime.
- [135:29]
Interviewer Danny
I believe it.
- [135:30]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. No, I. I rejected it.
- [135:32]
Interviewer Danny
My. My son, my. My oldest son, who's 6, has a girl in his class that says she vividly remembers her past life. She was a dog and she knows the name of the Dog. I can't remember the name of the dog.
- [135:48]
Greg Phillips
Huh.
- [135:49]
Andy Puharich
Well, poor dog.
- [135:51]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah. She came back as a human.
- [135:54]
Andy Puharich
Came back to you and had such a good life.
- [135:56]
Greg Phillips
I've often thought of giving my. I have a two year old daughter and giving her a spoon and, you know, seeing if she could bend it somehow.
- [136:03]
Interviewer Danny
Do you imagine she starts bending it? Yeah. What the would you do?
- [136:09]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, exactly. It's a good question. What would you do?
- [136:12]
Greg Phillips
No, the thing I wanted to mention though, is the. So the moment Montauk project.
- [136:16]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [136:16]
Greg Phillips
So the whole myth behind that is that there was apparently this government facility in Montauk, Long island, where they were experimenting with every weird thing you could imagine. Teleportation, time travel devices. But. But they were apparently doing research on kids there. Psychic kids.
- [136:37]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah.
- [136:38]
Greg Phillips
And that was apparently the basis behind Stranger Things, the show.
- [136:41]
Interviewer Danny
Right.
- [136:41]
Greg Phillips
And there's some guy who claimed to have escaped, kind of like Lazar and S4. There's this guy, his name's Preston Nichols. You can look him up. Preston Nichols, Yeah. N I C H O L S He claimed to have worked there. So he's very much like Lazar. He's kind of came out and he's like, I worked at this place. I know what was going on. I witnessed a time travel. But you know, it's just like Lazar, people are all over him. They think he's. He's full of shit and stuff. But that was the basis of Stranger Things. But from what I understand, like, there's really no evidence that this Montauk facility was real. Like, I think it's all. Well, there was a facility there for sure. It's like a building. It's like you can actually go and see it. But there's really no evidence, as far as I understand, that there was actually this top secret program happening there. Whereas the Roundtable foundation that Buharich ran was a very real place where they actually were doing psychic experiments on kids as far back as the 50s. Because some of the stuff in his records which we discovered was that even back in the 50s, it was the Air Force Office of Scientific Research that gave him a grant to do research with these two twins that were apparently psychic. And it was, you know, their father said, my two daughters are psychic. It's kind of like the telepathy tapes kind of stuff. They can read my mind. They know what I'm thinking. They're totally accurate. So the Air Force Office of Scientific Intelligence, they came to the Roundtable Lab and funded research with these two girls. And this was like in the 50s. And then there was another instance where it was another young person that came there as well and was studied. And so that's a place where this actually did happen. I mean, there's documented proof. Wow. Whereas I think the Montauk thing, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's, there's never really been anything that proves like, that there was actually that stuff happening there.
- [138:45]
Interviewer Danny
What is your take on the whole tele, Telepathy tapes stuff? Have you, are you familiar with the telepathy tapes?
- [138:54]
Andy Puharich
No.
- [138:55]
Interviewer Danny
It's these children, these nonverbal autistic children who are able to communicate telepathically. And there's like a whole podcast about it.
- [139:02]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, it became very popular. I listened to it and I, I, I think that it's, I think there's something there. I mean, I think unfortunately, like all of this stuff, what Puharich dealt with decades ago and what is still happening is just the onslaught of, of skeptics.
- [139:23]
Interviewer Danny
Beyond telepathy.
- [139:24]
Andy Puharich
That's his first book.
- [139:25]
Interviewer Danny
That's his first book.
- [139:27]
Andy Puharich
It's also been republished recently.
- [139:29]
Greg Phillips
They reference that in the telepathy tapes a bunch in the first couple.
- [139:32]
Interviewer Danny
Do they really?
- [139:33]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, that's how my dad, that's how it all started, you know, him researching people that were able to do telepathy. And the interesting thing about telepathy is, of course, that you always need.
- [139:44]
Interviewer Danny
Oh, Mitch Horowitz.
- [139:45]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, he wrote the introduction. He's cool. Well, Danny, I meant to say, you know, so my answer to that is I do tend to think that there's some really interesting information that points to that, that being legitimate, these autistic kids who can somehow communicate non verbally. But then you've got, you know, what was it the mother of one of them, you spoke to her with the test and everything. And I think there's situations like that that seem very suspicious. Suspicious and very easily debunked. And like we got into earlier, just people who are kind of getting on that bandwagon. Yeah, but, and there was a good interview you did with her.
- [140:30]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [140:30]
Interviewer Danny
And there's, there's even, you know, going back to what I said earlier about those mentalist folks, Oz Perlman.
- [140:36]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [140:37]
Interviewer Danny
Said that he can rep, he can do any of the stuff that those telepathy tape kids are doing. Yeah, he said he can do it, demonstrate it very easily. And he said that. And one of my, my problem with the telepathy tapes is they won't entertain that. They won't entertain a stage magician going in and observing yeah. That thing happen because their excuse, or I don't know if whatever that. What they say is, is that that will throw off the energy in the room and then they won't be able to perform their experiments.
- [141:06]
Greg Phillips
Well, that's the classic.
- [141:08]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, that's my frustration with the whole telepathy thing.
- [141:11]
Greg Phillips
No, it was very. As a story and as a pod, it was very compelling to listen to. But, yeah, I think when it comes to that. Okay, let's. Let's have somebody to challenge this. And if you're not a. Willing or able to do that, I mean.
- [141:23]
Andy Puharich
Right.
- [141:24]
Greg Phillips
Obviously people are going to jump all over it. So I don't know. I mean, to me, it, it, it. Some of this stuff is pretty convincing, but I don't. I don't know. There's a documentary coming out about it they made.
- [141:37]
Interviewer Danny
Really?
- [141:37]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah, it's coming out.
- [141:39]
Interviewer Danny
Interesting.
- [141:40]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. So maybe that will provide further evidence of this, but I know what you mean. There's been multiple times things I've heard that they've been challenged to. To do certain things, and they just sort of. They refuse to do it. So. Yeah, I don't know. I've never witnessed it, you know, firsthand myself. So, yeah, you know, a big part of the show is they have, like the. The camera crew and the people who are working with these kids are all very skeptical, and pretty much all of them come out being like, what's.
- [142:12]
Andy Puharich
What's the idea behind. Because I don't know.
- [142:13]
Greg Phillips
I don't know what was. Basically this. This scientist who actually know, is very fond of your dad. Buhari Diane Powell. I've talked.
- [142:21]
Interviewer Danny
I've had her on. Yeah, yeah, she's great.
- [142:23]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, she's super interesting. Really nice woman. She's a. She's a, you know, a scientist who got very interested in ESP and everything. But she had this. I don't know if it was her or the host of the podcast, but there's this theory that these nonverbal autistic kids have a way of communicating with not only each other, but with their parent or caretaker that doesn't involve, you know, speaking as they can't speak. And they basically chalked it up to, like, they're telepathic and they can communicate. So there's this thing called the Hill that they talk about in the show where all of it's kind of like a mind link where all these kids meet telepathically in this area and some other realm, and they're able to communicate with each other there, like some sort
- [143:10]
Interviewer Danny
of Interdimensional playground where all these people, all these telepathic autistic children go meet up in another dimension somewhere mentally.
- [143:18]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [143:19]
Andy Puharich
So what's the output? How do you measure that or how do you read that?
- [143:22]
Interviewer Danny
So they, what they do, they do experiments during the telepathy tapes, interviews, and they, they filmed it. They have camera people filming it where like they put the kid in one room or. I don't, I don't know if they're in the same rooms or if they're in different rooms, but they basically they, they show the kid some words or pictures or whatever or. No, they show the parent the pictures or the words or whatever and then the kid is somehow able to like repeat it. Yeah, exactly what the parent is seeing. The kids read the parents mind, not the other way around. The parents can't read the kids minds.
- [143:50]
Greg Phillips
Okay. So they're looking at a board that will say a certain word and the parent's back is turned and you're the kid and they have no way of seeing it and they'll be able to, you know, know the word.
- [144:01]
Andy Puharich
They can't talk?
- [144:03]
Greg Phillips
No.
- [144:04]
Andy Puharich
So what do they do, write it down?
- [144:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, they have that like a tablet or something, right?
- [144:08]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, they have a tablet where they can like type or something or. I don't know how they do it,
- [144:12]
Greg Phillips
but there's all these theories that the parent is signaling them somehow or the parent is touching them in a way that's.
- [144:19]
Interviewer Danny
Well, one of the things that really kind of made me more confused about the whole thing was when I had Dahlia, one of the mothers of one of the kids on the show, and she was saying that her daughter was talking about like meeting Jesus or something or like talking about biblical characters and angels and stuff in this other realm. And that's where I'm like, you know, these people are predisposed to this because they were brought up in this religious sort of mind frame. Right. That was kind of like their family history. So like how much of that is bleeding into what this kid is saying or.
- [145:05]
Andy Puharich
You know, I always find that really interesting with near death experiences that it seems. I mean, do you believe that that's true?
- [145:13]
Interviewer Danny
I believe that's true. 100 I believe that's true.
- [145:15]
Andy Puharich
I do too. But it seems like people that are brought up in a certain religion, they will always find those kind of images.
- [145:24]
Interviewer Danny
Yes, that's true. That's true.
- [145:26]
Andy Puharich
So that's that, you know, I always find that kind of interesting that there's some sort of projection. So you see something, it's like in dreams you see, you feel something but you make a projection yourself of what you're seeing. You know, the way you were brought up or the way you. So it's always a projection of your own, you know, of your own beliefs, of your own belief. There's a certain feeling that you get from, from something but you make the picture yourself. Now it's like in dreams. In dreams there's feelings going all over the place. Your mind just.
- [145:59]
Interviewer Danny
Yes.
- [146:00]
Andy Puharich
Makes the images, ties them together and makes it into some kind of soup that nobody really understand. It's interesting how that works.
- [146:08]
Interviewer Danny
It is very interesting how that works.
- [146:10]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, yeah.
- [146:12]
Interviewer Danny
So something going on there with the subcon, the unconscious mind is somehow percolating up through all this stuff. Even psychedelic trips too.
- [146:21]
Andy Puharich
I've heard similar stories.
- [146:25]
Greg Phillips
I've never done that. I'm kind of scared to do a ayahuasca trip, do dmt.
- [146:30]
Interviewer Danny
It's only five minutes. It's the same thing but it doesn't last for hours.
- [146:35]
Greg Phillips
I've done mushrooms many times and I've told a lot of people I've had extremely profound, you know.
- [146:43]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, yeah.
- [146:43]
Greg Phillips
On mushrooms, like really life changing promotional.
- [146:46]
Interviewer Danny
Oh yeah.
- [146:48]
Greg Phillips
And, and I haven't done it in many years but yeah, it's kind of, you can hear a lot of people talk about like for me it's like okay, I, I got there already. What, what, what more do I need to take to like I already kind of experienced that and totally. But I don't know, I'm not like opposed to the ayahuasca and all that stud dmt. I just, I'm kind of like paranoid I guess about.
- [147:10]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, it's just scary. It's definitely scary.
- [147:12]
Greg Phillips
You've done it?
- [147:13]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, I've done dmt, not ayahuasca.
- [147:16]
Andy Puharich
What happened?
- [147:16]
Greg Phillips
Did you see l. Elves and the
- [147:19]
Interviewer Danny
first time I saw little aliens in front of me doing ballet in circles.
- [147:28]
Andy Puharich
Wow, that's cute.
- [147:30]
Interviewer Danny
And, and one of the most recent times I had a like a full on conversation with a tree in my
- [147:35]
Andy Puharich
backyard
- [147:38]
Interviewer Danny
and it was like I forget so that it's like it slips away from you after a while. Like it's like so like right after you do it you have to immediately do a voice memo of like everything that's running through your mind right then. And I did that and it was like something to the effect of like, like humans are only like temporary, temporary passersby in like the world or whatever and the trees and like everyone like the trees know way more than we, we can ever know. And like something about like the nature and like, like the. What's that? What's here on earth and what has been here, like the plants and the animals and some sort of, like some sort of like universal consciousness that the trees are all tapped into and they see everything and we can't even comprehend like the reality and we're only temporary and like they were here behind before us and they're going to be here after us and like.
- [148:36]
Greg Phillips
Makes sense.
- [148:36]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, it was my. It was kind of like I couldn't stop thinking about it for like a week after. It was pretty wild.
- [148:41]
Greg Phillips
I have a question. Like, when you do DMT like that, when do you just like come out of it? Like, how, how does that, like do you just kind of like come back and just.
- [148:51]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, it just sort of like it just gradually wears off over a couple minutes. It lasts maybe 10 minutes max. So it's like. It's like all of a sudden it's just like you're blasted in to like another reality. I feel like the first time I did it, that's the best way I could describe what dying would probably be like because I feel like my soul sort of ejected out the top of my head and I was just like shuttling through like a highway of light, like, like arteries.
- [149:18]
Andy Puharich
Oh, really?
- [149:19]
Interviewer Danny
Like arteries made of light and like fractals and things like that. And like I. I literally felt my physical body being left behind and like everything I know, every possession I have, every person I've ever met, just like leaving that all behind and like entering a new dimension with that was just my soul, like completely disconnected from physical reality.
- [149:39]
Greg Phillips
Wow.
- [149:40]
Interviewer Danny
And yeah, it was bonkers, dude. Every, every. Every time I've done it, it's been a different experience.
- [149:47]
Greg Phillips
Yeah, well, it's. What's really interesting to me is you had him on, right? Andrew Gallimore?
- [149:52]
Interviewer Danny
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [149:52]
Greg Phillips
He's super interesting. Interesting. He does a bunch of research about this idea that like, when, whenever you take DMT or enter this other dimension and people can access that dimension and.
- [150:05]
Interviewer Danny
And he does an extended state DMT where he puts people on IV drips of it so he can stay there for longer.
- [150:10]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [150:10]
Interviewer Danny
And try to like map out whatever that realm is.
- [150:14]
Greg Phillips
Yeah.
- [150:15]
Andy Puharich
I did it once and I, to my disappointment, I just wound up in this dome. Pure geometric form, you know, the, the six, what is it called? The six corner shape. And that was it. And I was stuck there and that's all I saw. And when I opened my eyes, I was still like half in there, but that Was it pure geometry? And that I found so weird. That was the least thing I would expect.
- [150:42]
Interviewer Danny
One of the craziest things for me, too, was this. The audio, like my. Like the. Their sound. It's not just visual hallucinations. It's like this type sound that just takes over.
- [150:55]
Greg Phillips
Huh.
- [150:55]
Interviewer Danny
It's like this weird, weird thing. I don't know. Unexplainable.
- [151:00]
Andy Puharich
Yeah.
- [151:00]
Greg Phillips
Now I want to try, I guess.
- [151:02]
Andy Puharich
Yeah, man. You're gonna have to do it someday. You're young.
- [151:06]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Yeah.
- [151:07]
Interviewer Danny
Geez. Well, cool, man. Thank you, guys for doing this. This has been fascinating conversation.
- [151:12]
Greg Phillips
Yeah. Tell people about your documentary, Mind Traveler. It's called Mind Traveler. It's going to be out this summer, and you can buy it, you can rent it, Amazon, iTunes, etc. And yeah, we're going to have a trailer done, definitely, for sure. Like this week, so we can get that to you.
- [151:32]
Interviewer Danny
Hell, yeah.
- [151:33]
Greg Phillips
Fantastic. Mind Traveler. Yeah. Long time coming. Very excited about it.
- [151:40]
Interviewer Danny
Think fantastic documentary, man.
- [151:42]
Andy Puharich
Very well.
- [151:42]
Greg Phillips
Thank you very much.
- [151:43]
Interviewer Danny
Big fan.
- [151:44]
Greg Phillips
Thanks, man.
- [151:45]
Interviewer Danny
Cool. All right, Andy. Thank you. This has been fun.
- [151:49]
Andy Puharich
Yeah. Welcome.
- [151:50]
Interviewer Danny
All right, guys.
- [151:50]
Andy Puharich
Good to be here.
- [151:51]
Greg Phillips
Good.
- [151:52]
Interviewer Danny
Good night, world.