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#393 - The REAL Reason Trump is Rushing to Disclose UFO Files | Dan Farah
03:10:46
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- [00:07]
A
The CIA was working overtime to make sure you didn't make it down here today.
- [00:12]
B
That was a nightmare.
- [00:13]
A
Adjust your mic so it's facing you. There you go.
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B
Three flights canceled.
- [00:18]
A
Three flights canceled. Ended up jumping on the PJ coming down here.
- [00:22]
B
Friend came through with PJ and well,
- [00:24]
A
we made it happen, dude, and I'm glad we did. And it's nice to finally meet you.
- [00:28]
B
Thank you. You too, man.
- [00:28]
A
We're in the age of disclosure, huh?
- [00:30]
B
We are, we are. It's. It's a wild time to be alive, you know, I mean, that is, that's why I went with that title. You know, disclosure is not going to be a singular moment. It's going to be this process that unfolds over many years. And you know, when we look back 50 years from now, it'll be this little pocket of time that's the, the age of disclosure. The age where all this stuff comes out and the truth comes out in, in, in steps. Yeah.
- [01:02]
A
How did this whole documentary start out for you?
- [01:06]
B
So it's a kind of long origin story, I would say. So. You know, I'm 46 and my childhood's the 80s and early 90s and grew up with movies like Close Encounters and E.T. close Encounters made the biggest impact on me. I was, I was obsessed with that movie. X Files was running on TV when I was a kid. And movies like Fire in the Sky. Yeah, you know, we're making, we're getting a lot of attention. And I remember my cousins and I watching. Watching Fire in the sky late at night scared the crap out of us, but also made us super curious about this topic. And so my whole life just been interested in the topic. These big questions like, are we alone in the universe? Does the US government know more about this topic than the average person? That's kind of the common thesis and all that pop culture I grew up with. Right. Close Encounters, ET X Files. The one common idea is that. Well, two common ideas are, yes, there's life from elsewhere, but elements of the US government have been covering it up. So I've always wondered if that was true, you know, and watched every movie and TV show, read every book over the years and I always wished that someone would make a really credible, serious, non sensational documentary about this topic. And only, and like basically set the bar at only interviewing people who have direct knowledge of it as a result of working for the government. If, if, if elements of the government do in fact know more than the public, the idea would be to find that out. Right. And no one ever Made that film. My career ended up going into mainstream producing. I had a lot of, I was very fortunate over the last 20 years building movies and TV shows as a producer from the ground up, like big commercial stuff. The biggest that people know would be Ready Player One, which Spielberg directed. And then it was, yeah, it was on the set of ready player 1. Watching Steven Spielberg direct. And in my opinion, he's the greatest filmmaker that's ever lived and watching him direct was just unbelievably inspiring. And I started, I started thinking then in the back of my mind like I'd like to direct something. After years of producing, I got my wheel spinning on what that might be. And I was actually doing research for a scripted project a couple years after Ready Player One came out. And in doing research, I was trying to learn how, how real the situation around this topic was. And so I got connected to some senior intelligence officials that had worked on this topic for the US Government and started having just private, private conversations, meals with those guys, trying to understand the lay of the land. And I quickly realized how real the situation actually is. And, and these ideas that were put in our heads when we were kids with movies like Close Encounters and ET Weren't far off from the truth. There, there, there has in fact been a massive cover up of non human intelligent life. And the government does take it very serious and does know a lot more than the public does. So in those, those conversations that originally were research for, for a scripted project, like I said, I started to realize that these people that I form relationships would be, that I form relationships with would be great interview subjects for that documentary that I always wish existed. And then I kind of shifted my focus to no longer doing research for a scripted project. And I was like, okay, I'm going to make the definitive documentary on this topic that I always wish existed. And this will be that thing that I direct too. And so that's sort of like the, the origin. And then from there I started socializing with these intelligence officials I had met and their colleagues that I wanted to, I wanted to make a film that would bring the truth out about what is known that can legally be shared. All these people are privy to classified information, but you know, there's a lot they, they, they can share. They've just been historically discouraged from doing so. Right. I wanted to make the doc that gave them a platform to, to share what they lawfully could and really kind of open the public's eyes to what's really been going on. And as I started to, as I Started to socialize that. It started to catch momentum. You know, one I would, I would have like a, you know, private, private meal with someone wanted to tell his official, explain what I wanted to do. They would think about it, they would come back and say, you know what? I think I'd be interested in participating, but let's see who else you can get before I say I will. And then they'd introduce me to a couple of their friends and sort of sent me down a rabbit hole. Eventually I started getting passed up to senior members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, the staff, the members. Same thing with the Senate Armed Services Committee. And what I didn't know then, that I know now is in that same moment, senior leadership on the Senate Intelligence Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee had on their own in a classified setting, uncovered this massive cover up. They had learned about it and they knew it was real. They knew that non human intelligent life had been covered up for 80 years. They knew that there were elements of our government actively gatekeeping this information and keeping it from the public. They knew it was being kept from Congress, the White House and the public. And they were trying to figure out a way to get the base facts out into the public. None of those politicians as elected leaders wanted to be the one guy out on a limb going on Fox News or CNN saying these extraordinary things and being subject to the pushback. They didn't really have a way to tell the world this complicated situation. Right. And so I was sort of in the right place at the right time and that while they were having that thought process, I was socializing that I wanted to make a documentary that would essentially do that. Right. And so something really wild happened, which is basically there was this moment in time where while I was putting together the documentary, my film essentially became the plan for disclosure for those who had the knowledge. So this group of military, government and intelligence officials that had learned the truth about the COVID up decided my film would be the vehicle for disclosing that information. And I spent about three and a half years putting this together, both learning the lay of the land myself and really understanding what's real and what's not real. And you know, as they say, the saying, you know, who's who in the zoo, you know, like all the, all the different players and all this and, and then making it, doing interviews over the course of three years.
- [08:12]
A
Yeah, in the beginning when you said you were meeting with some intelligence officials that were sort of like guiding you in the right direction and telling you like, if you can get More people to speak out. You know, we'll do it too publicly. How many of them those original intelligence people you were talking about were in the movie?
- [08:32]
B
A number of them. Most of them.
- [08:34]
A
Most of them? Most of them. Like who?
- [08:36]
B
So for example, Jay Stratton.
- [08:38]
A
Okay.
- [08:39]
B
You know, Jay was, was he one
- [08:41]
A
of the first people you talked to?
- [08:42]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So Jay was in the process of retiring from government when I met him at the, at the time he was the director of the US Government's UAP Task force. The large toll government investigation of UAP and non human intelligent life. Right. His story is pretty amazing. He's really the central figure in the modern investigation of UAP and non human intelligent life. And frankly, in disclosure, he, he and intelligence official named Dr. James McCaskey goes by Jim. They co founded OS app, the investigation of UAP that eventually became known as a tip. There was this moment in time where OS APP essentially lost its funding and they, they carried on as a bootstrapped working group that went by a tip. After that, he was tasked by leadership in Naval Intelligence and at the DOD to put together the largest whole of government investigation that's ever existed. And that's the UAP Task force. And he spent a couple years building it, hand picking key members. Some of your listeners have heard some of those names like David Grush who testified to Congress. He was a member of the UAP Task force.
- [10:10]
A
Yeah, that was a big deal when he came out.
- [10:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. So he was one of the people on Jay's team.
- [10:16]
A
Was he in the film? Yeah, he was in the film.
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B
Wasn't. There's some, there's some, there's some footage of him in the film. Yeah, his, his.
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A
No, he didn't do any interviews.
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B
Yeah, we didn't do a direct interview, but, but I had, I already knew I had him in the film through his congressional hearings where he was.
- [10:29]
A
Right.
- [10:30]
B
Saying that the most important stuff. So, and I liked having the, the hearing footage in there. I think it makes people, there's a lot of people, A lot of stuff
- [10:38]
A
that he was saying in front of Congress was nutty.
- [10:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of people who watch the movie and, and they, they say to me, they're like, I had no idea those hearings even happened.
- [10:47]
A
Right.
- [10:49]
B
Just so busy and everyone's got their nine to five and you know, putting food on the table for the kids and all those other priorities. And you know, maybe they see it in their social media feed. Oh, there was this hearing in UFOs, but it doesn't really register for everybody.
- [11:00]
A
So, so Jay was there from the jump, and he was sort of leading you around, kind of like holding your hand, showing you the lay of the land, where to go, what, what tree, what branches to shake to.
- [11:12]
B
Yeah, him, him and him and him and some other people in the film. There was, there was about, there was about four or five guys who were really guiding me in. And then, and then once I got connected with the Senate Intelligence Committee specifically, I formed a really strong relationship with the, the guys who run the Senate Intelligence Committee staff. So most people don't know this, actually. It's really interesting. So the Senate Intelligence Committee, the members, the, the senators on the committee, they, they can kind of come and go, right? Like, they, they, you know, they get assigned to a committee and depending on who's, you know, running the Senate at the time, you know, it impacts it. And they might spend, a senator might spend, you know, a year on it, two years on it, three years on it. But the staffers, they can be there for many years, right?
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A
Three layers down, their career long.
- [12:09]
B
Yeah, they can, you know, like I can be working for the, the be a senior staff member for a decade. And the way they handle the staff work is they break up topics. So, like, one guy will know everything about uap, one guy will know everything about nuclear technology, one guy will know everything about, you know, environmental issues, you name it. And so got introduced early on to the Senate intel staff member who really owned the UAP topic for the two chairman, which were Rubio and Warner. Warner was the, was the chairman, and Rubio was the vice chairman of the Senate Intel Committee. And this staffer's job was to basically just shake all the trees every day at all the different intelligence agencies in the military and learn everything and be hyper aware of everything. And he was a central figure in Rubio and, and, and Warner figuring out what was going on and uncovering this, this truth and learning all the reality of it. So I formed a great relationship with that senior staffer and his colleagues, and they were really, really helpful once Rubio decided to participate in the film. And other senior senators, like Senator Rounds from South Dakota, Senator Gillibrand from New York from the Democratic Party, once they leaned in, then the committee staff was essentially told to help make sure that this doc is the definitive doc and is legit from start to finish, and that I don't end up interviewing the wrong person who shares bullshit, you know, that I don't end up misunderstanding the lay of the land and presenting it, you know, different than than it is. And so they really helped keep me, keep me on the right path. They, I, I shared with them people I was considering interviewing. Sometimes they would say, hey, you should, you know, stay clear. Sometimes they would guide me to people. They introduced me to a number of the people who did interviews in the film.
- [14:20]
A
I feel like that would make me so skeptical though. You know, if I'm having politicians and intelligence people telling me who to talk to and who not to talk to, I'm automatically the wheels in my head are going, whoa.
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B
Well, it wasn't telling me.
- [14:33]
A
It was more or even like subtly suggesting.
- [14:36]
B
Yeah, well, a number of the very like indisputably legitimate people in my film were introduced to me by the Senate Intel Committee. I mean there's certain, you know, think about it like the people in my film are all, they have the most credible resumes. Sure. Yeah. Like they're unimpeachably credible people and they, they have all, they all have direct knowledge of this topic as a result of working for the government. They all have been discouraged from moment one of learning about this, not to talk about it publicly. You know, it makes sense that like, it would help encourage them to do it if, you know, they're here from folks on the Senate Intelligence Committee that, hey, you know, people like Rubio and Gillibrand and Rounds have decided this is the best way for the truth to come out. And we encourage you to participate in this. You know, so, yeah, if you've ever
- [15:30]
A
shopped online before, chances are high you purchase from a business that's powered by Shopify. It's easy to spot with that purple shop pay button. That's what we use for our merch store. That purple button has all your payment and shipping info so you don't have to track down your card or hope your browser remembered your payment info. There's a reason why so many businesses use Shopify. That's because they make it incredibly easy to run your own business. It's the business behind the business that really matters. And that's where Shopify excels. With convenient tools and workflows, Shop Pay has the best converting checkout on the planet, meaning fewer abandoned carts and way more sales. That's a game changer. And you can spread your brand's word with their built in marketing and email tools. Don't want to build your own page? Shopify has hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates to express your brand and forget the code like daylight computer, which is gorgeous. So if you've got a product, a dream, and the Drive to make it happen. Shopify is the platform that helps you do it with ease because businesses that sell sell more with Shopify. See less abandoned carts and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Danny Jones all lowercase again go to S-O-P-I-F-Y.com Danny Jones shopify.com SL Dany Jones what changed my perspective on this whole topic indefinitely was the that movie Mirage Men by about Paul Benowitz. Are you familiar with that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a crazy story, man. Just the, the whole industry that is there underneath the surface, whose entire purpose is to throw people off the scent of what's really going on. Like the fact that this guy was living in New Mexico or Nevada, seeing these objects flying around and getting obsessed with the fact that they had like a whole group of people from the NSA and from the Air Force whose job was to convince this guy that he was seeing aliens from another world, when in reality it was just their own technology that they were testing. Drove the guy crazy. Put installed NSA next door to him to beam into his house because he was using radios and to detect stuff. He was going, he was going nuts. And they were like beaming stuff into his house, saying that they were a civilization from another planet, they had run out of water, and they were coming here. And they knew that this guy was a big deal in Muon. And they knew Muon. This was in like the 60s, I think, 70s maybe. They knew that MUFON had been penetrated by the Soviets because the Soviets were trying to get more in information and intelligence on what we, what we had going on in our Air Force bases and our war weapon technology, all that kind of stuff during the Cold War. So they're like, oh, this is a great opportunity to just convince this guy it's aliens. He's going to go tell everyone in Muon and that's going to get, that's going to poison the well. He's going to be a conduit of disinfo for this. Soviet spies were trying to get information on us. The guy ended up going to a mental institution and dying. And like, I was like, after that, I was like, whoa, okay, no, this is a hall of mirrors. That.
- [18:26]
B
That's a real situation. Yeah, for sure. But you got to also remember, you know, I learned about all that as well, and I inversely had the same reaction as you. But then, you know, you got to realize the role that that Storyline plays in a bigger picture. Right. Why is it that elements of the intelligence Committee, not the intelligence committee of the intelligence community, would make up a story like that to try to have it end up, as you said, received by the Russians as real? Right, Right. Because the answer is because there is in fact a high stakes, secret Cold War race playing out and there has been since the forties regarding non human technology. And anywhere you can throw off your adversary, it's strategic to do so.
- [19:11]
A
Sure.
- [19:11]
B
So just because that situation is real doesn't mean the bigger picture isn't. You know, there's actually, I've been told from my most senior relationships inside of military, government and the intelligence community that a couple, and I'm not going to say who, but a couple of the. More the, the whistle, quote, unquote, not, they're not whistleblowers. A couple of the people who have come out in, in a big way in the public to talk about this topic and reveal something they learned, something specific they experienced or saw, have this, it's the same backstory. You know, they, they did, they did experience that, but it was staged for them because at the time there was a, there was a, in those, in those situations, there was either a Russian or a Chinese unit of spies that, that, that were, were being fed information through this, this public spectacle like, like the Paul thing. So look, I think the reality of it is everyone I interviewed, despite their political and ideological differences, all told me the same thing. They all made it super clear that the existence of non human intelligent life has been getting covered up since, since the 40s. There are these elements within the US government, within various agencies, within the Air Force and the DOE and some private contractors who have been gatekeeping this and covering it up for years and keeping it from the public. And you know, the movie, I'm proud to say, has made a big impact in that it opened a lot of people's eyes inside a government who didn't necessarily realize all this. And then the people who had already realized it are taking that new interest and really accelerating disclosure. It led to like four weeks ago, Trump gave a presidential directive to declassify evidence of non human intelligent life and uap. And I'm sure he saw that. You know, and in the, in the week since his, two of his cabinet members, Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of War, and Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, have been basically going through the process of trying to identify what evidence exists that can safely be declassified and shared with the American public without becoming a threat to national security. And what I've been told through my relationships is that they are receiving a lot of pushback from the folks who have gatekeep this. Despite the fact that there's a presidential directive, they're still getting blocked from getting to this very real evidence that exists.
- [21:46]
A
Yeah, the idea is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I got from the documentary was in the 40s, after Roswell, all this stuff got sucked up into private contractors and it's been, been controlled by private contractors and people have rotated in and out of top level positions over the decades. And now the new people that come in don't even get briefed on this stuff. And essentially all of that, whatever you want to call it, black budget stuff or recovered craft is being controlled by the private sector. And even like top tier generals can't even get access to it in the government. So the government, there's like the secret war between the US Government and private industry trying to wrestle control of this stuff, whatever it is.
- [22:29]
B
So private industry certainly has a lot of control over the situation right now, but there's still elements of, for example, the CIA and the Air Force and the Department of Energy, like career bureaucrats within those, those organizations that are very much involved with the defense contractors. But you know, in my film, Rubio breaks down how when you give technology to a private company, like a defense contractor, to understand it, which is, you know, the only option the government has, the government doesn't have a room full of engineers and you know, yeah, plus
- [23:08]
A
they want to hide behind foia.
- [23:09]
B
They want to hide behind foia. But, but more importantly, if you, if you recover a piece of exotic technology and you want to try to reverse engineer it or fully understand it, there's just not a room for those engineers sitting in an office at, you know, the dod. And so, you know, he explained how, you know, you, you, you give that technology to a defense contractor and then, and then as you said over the years, they keep working at it, they stay constant. The government overseer, you know, retires or dies or, you know, changes. And then the next guy knows a little bit about the program but doesn't know everything. And then the guy after that doesn't even know the program exists. But the, the defense contractor's still chugging along. And so you get to this point where the defense contractors hold a lot of the cards. And at the same time though, there are still these career bureaucrats that, you know, are there throughout multiple administrations within the CIA, the Air Force and the Department of energy that are very much involved in this. And so everyone in my film that talked about this, this, this hidden program referred to as the legacy program, they, they, they all say that it has just been, it was immediately removed from congressional oversight when it started in the 40s. And so the tug of war really is elected officials and their appointed officials, like the Secretary of War and Director of National Intelligence, trying to wrestle this information out of these career bureaucrats and the defense contractors. And it's a complicated situation, as the film shows. It's not, it's not a black and white situation. It's not like.
- [24:47]
A
And the craziest part about all that is the United States is probably the only country that that's happening in because all the other countries, the government just controls everything. There are no private contractors.
- [24:56]
B
Yeah. Which also, you know, leads to one of the other really important takeaways for me from my interviews and in the film, which is, you know, Rubio also expresses this really clearly, which is the, the concern that if we don't take this more seriously as a nation and make the, make it known that this is a valid area of inquiry, that it's a real situation. Right. And cause our scientific community and academia to want to take it serious, then we are likely going to lose this race to our adversaries, because our adversaries don't need the public to decide it's important. They can just tell them it's important. Like she can just take the smartest scientist in China and say, you're going to work on this. Right. You know, they don't. Yeah. Putin can do the same thing. And so it's hard to, simply put, it's hard to win a technology race if most of your scientists don't even know it's real. And so the analogy I often heard was the space race analogy. Would we have won the space race if Kennedy didn't step to the microphone and give that big, famous speech at Rice University and say, we're going to get to the moon. Here's why it's important. Here's why it's important we win this race? He articulated it in a way that, the same kind of way you would articulate the importance of this topic. He said space technology, like nuclear technology, has no conscience of its own. It's up to mankind whether it's used for good or bad. And that's why it was important that the. He felt it was important that the US Lead in, in this new frontier so it can make sure that it's used for the betterment. Of all mankind and not to create another sea of war. That was his whole like, thesis. Right, right. And then the country rallied behind him and scientific community rally behind him and then, you know, we won the space race. So a number of the people I interviewed made the point of, you know, their, their opinion is that we need that sort of like level set with the American public and that sort of like, you know, mission made a national priority on this front so that we win this technology race.
- [26:56]
A
Do you think there's any sort of like super high level, top, top tier backstop agreement between all of these nation states, like the United States, China and Russia about disclosure? Like, do you think there's any like super deep back channel? Like, look, there's got to be some coordination here?
- [27:13]
B
I think so. Multiple people I interviewed told me this isn't something we got into in the film, but multiple people told me that in the past there was information sharing between China and the U.S. excuse me, sorry, Russia in the U.S. not China, Russia in the U.S. right. And that, that apparently broke down about 15 years ago. And so I don't, I. No one's ever told me that currently there is still active communication and strategizing. But many people told me about information sharing back in the day between the US And Russia. And, and they, they always, they always gave the same examples. They, they basically said there was, there was so much UAP activity near nuclear weapon sites that it was, it was clear to both leaders of both nations that they needed to make the other aware. So that no one misinterpreted a uap. Right. As an attack.
- [28:09]
A
Right. And they were happening all over the place. Not just in the US they're happening in Russia, uk Yeah. All over the place.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah. What do you think? Have you, has anyone ever, anyone that you think is credible ever told you that, that there is an active.
- [28:25]
A
No, no one's ever told me that. But I think about it all the time. You know, I, I sometimes wonder, you know, is there like some deep level of like, you know, the bankers that run the world or whatever that are, that know about this stuff, the people that are above the presidents, you know?
- [28:40]
B
Well, look, President Trump just didn't, he just announced recently that he's, he's going to meet with Xi four times over the next 12 months, something that's never happened? You know, maybe, maybe it's a coincidence that, that, that those meetings are happening while disclosure is unfolding following his presidential directive.
- [28:57]
A
That's interesting.
- [29:00]
B
Yeah.
- [29:00]
A
You know, I, but I just, I'm skeptical that Trump has any power to do that. I'm skeptical that the president, any, any politicians in the United States have that kind of power.
- [29:09]
B
I think there's a, I think there's a, a change happening here. I think the current administration is really actively trying to get their hands on the reins of the situation.
- [29:24]
A
Yeah.
- [29:24]
B
Whereas every other administration has been kept so much out of the loop that they, they didn't even have a shot at grabbing the reins.
- [29:34]
A
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- [31:08]
B
Yeah, there were a number of people. There were, there were, there were a handful of officials who. Because of their, their, their, their roles at the time, couldn't, couldn't participate, couldn't go on camera because of their roles at the Time because they, they, because they were either, you know, senior in the military or in the government and, and just couldn't, couldn't do it. Intelligence officials. And then there were a couple people that was a few people actually who ultimately decided that it would be too dangerous for them to speak up about what they know. The one that always stays in my head is, is a, someone who's part of the Special Forces community who is, who is going to do an interview and talk about what he had learned. And, and then ultimately he used very specific words that have stayed in my head. He ultimately told me that after long conversations with his wife, they both determined he would be forfeiting his life if he participated in the film. And I always thought the use of the word forfeiting was very specific and, you know, terrifying. Yeah, you know, you don't ever want
- [32:25]
A
to hear, especially coming from a Special Forces guy.
- [32:27]
B
Yeah. And, and it almost the vibe I got when I first heard that was, it was, it was the kind of word choice that like made you think like someone else had said that to him. You know, like someone said you before for your life. And then, yeah, using those words because it's such an unusual word choice, you know, but, you know, put yourself in my shoes, man. Like I, I had, I immediately was like, well, of course, I definitely do not want you or me in any situation remotely like that, you know. Right. So, you know, of course, let's, let's, you know, let's not do an interview. And yeah, you know, I always made a point also of telling everyone I talked to, which is the truth. I would say, hey, I don't want to know anything I shouldn't know, you know, don't tell me. Don't cross any lines. Don't tell me anything that's classified. Don't tell me anything. I, as a, you know, just a member of the public, shouldn't, shouldn't know, you know, don't want to be in some crazy, dangerous situation. You know, there's, there's a lot of information that people have on this topic from their work for the US Government that they can lawfully talk about. And that's, that's, that's where I wanted to live and I wanted this movie to live, you know, and that stuff's fascinating enough. It also does beg the question though of like, what's on the other side of that line? Because what's revealed in my film is shocking. You know, people, senior intelligence officials talking about recoveries of crafts of non human origin and bodies of not, you Know, non human bodies being in these crashes and talking about the extent of the COVID up, it's also mind blowing. It just makes you, it's impossible not to get your wheels spinning on what's, what's on the other side of that line. You know, like if this is what they can lawfully share, what's the stuff they can't lawfully share yet? Right. Like that's, that's pretty wild when you go down that rabbit hole thinking of what the possibilities are. Yeah.
- [34:16]
A
So after everything, what is Your high, high level, 30, 000 foot view of what this phenomena actually is?
- [34:24]
B
Oof. Look, I think, I think it's been made pretty clear to me that we're not dealing with one non human intelligent life, that we're dealing with multiple, multiple forms of intelligent life from multiple origins. And you know, essentially the universe is full of life. And so extraterrestrials, I think, I think, I think all things are on the table. I think it could be extraterrestrials and I think this concept of interdimensional beings, as fantastical as that sounds, could be one of the other possibilities of origin. There's also the possibility of there being other intelligent life that's been here all along and that Earth has been the home to, from, you know, home four to the beginning, since the future.
- [35:14]
A
Humans, human time travelers.
- [35:17]
B
I, I guess, I guess it'd be foolish at this point to take anything off the table, you know.
- [35:22]
A
Yeah.
- [35:22]
B
But you know, one of the most
- [35:26]
A
interesting things to me about the, the grays that you see in Close Encounters and in all the media lore is that they're, they're bipedal, upright walking hominids with two eyes, two legs, two arms, fingers, toes, and. That's, that's us. Like if, if life were to evolve on any other Goldilocks planet with different atmosphere, different gravity, different chemical makeup, maybe a whole entire water world with no land, what are the chances it's going to evolve to be so similar to us? I mean, I'm not smart enough to know the answer, but I'm sure it's not. I mean, I've talked to anthropologists who look at this stuff and they say it's very, very low probability.
- [36:10]
B
It's, it's, it's fascinating.
- [36:11]
A
Yeah. And then you have, you know, people like, who was it Timber Chat that said there was underwater bases, just he's casually walking down the street. Yeah, they're underwater bases. They're down there.
- [36:22]
B
Look, Tim's, Tim's a great guy and yeah, he's Great. He's really. He's really on top of this issue. The. Him and some of his colleagues in. In on the House side of Congress that are really on top of this. It's like, it's him, Anna Luna from Florida, it's Burleson from Missouri, Moskowitz from Florida, Carson from Indianapolis. That's. That's like a short list of people that are really on top of it and trying to share what they can. Tim, you know, Tim, I saw that. That too, and I've talked to him about it.
- [36:55]
A
How does he know that?
- [36:56]
B
Multiple leaders in the Navy, in the U.S. navy, you know, ranging from admirals to naval intelligence officials, have told Congress about craft moving at impossible speeds under the water past our submarines. And so much so that they.
- [37:17]
A
Tim Gallaudet.
- [37:18]
B
Tim's one of those people. Yeah, so much so that they. They're. They're making the logical conclusion that they're. That there's bases. And it's crazy. It's crazy, man. You know, apparently, you know, I'm no naval expert, so if there's people listening who, you know, know, I'm off on this, that's fine, but apparently our submarines can only go like 40 or 50 miles an hour, and these things are going hundreds of miles. Right.
- [37:50]
A
There was one that was. That was tracked in Aguadilla, right. In Puerto Rico, that they said was going like 500 miles per hour under the ocean or something. Insane.
- [38:00]
B
It's crazy. Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. I mean, look, the reason why Jay Stratton was the one who changed using. We know he's the reason we no longer use the word ufo. Right. Because that son of a bitch got
- [38:15]
A
a phone to pick with him about that.
- [38:16]
B
No, I think he was right, though, because UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. Right. And he knew early on that a lot of this activity is happening in our oceans and in space where you're not flying. Right, Right. And so Unidentified Anomalous phenomena became the. The. The catch all.
- [38:35]
A
Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
For uav.
- [38:36]
A
Ufo Better, though.
- [38:37]
B
UFO is catchy. But here's the other reason they did it is UFO has this. This cultural stigma. It makes people giggle and not take it serious. And sort of changing the optics helped the conversation.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah. UAP is like the suit and tie version of it.
- [38:53]
B
Yeah, the suit and tie version.
- [38:54]
A
Yeah.
- [38:54]
B
That's another wild thing that came out of my interviews. A number of the officials, including a senior CIA official, Jim Semivan, talked about how the program that has gate kept this, the legacy program that has gatekept this since the 40s. They created the stigma around this topic in the late 40s, early 50s as like a security rapper, as a security system. Like, pretty smart idea. Like you don't want people looking into something, put, put it into society, put this idea into society that you're a wacky person. If you look into it, you're nuts. You'll have your reputation ruined.
- [39:29]
A
Like a couple movies about it.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah. Fund some movies making it look silly and no one will take it serious. No one will want to look into it. No real journalists will want to go look into it. If the media is not paying attention to it, then the public's not paying attention. It's kind of, it's kind of genius. But, but the problem is it got compounded over the years by, you know, multiple generations. And then it got to the point where, you know, the average person just thought it was a, you know, it's like talking about Bigfoot, you know, it's ridiculous and, and the average scientist didn't think it was real. And so the stigma is. A couple of officials of my film talk about how this stigma that was created originally with a national security intention of, you know, keeping it secret while, while they figured out what was going on, it's grown into this new national security threat where, you know, we could be falling behind in this technology race because our scientific community doesn't even know it's real as a result of the stigma. So a big, a big mission for people in my film when I talk to them, you know, off camera about why, why what was driving them to want to participate in the film. One of the big reasons was to put an end to this antiquated stigma around this topic and to make sure people just simply understand that it's a real situation, that it's a valid area of inquiry. And yeah, the stigma, you know, and the stigma led to, you know, Jay Stratton talks in the film about how when you try to raise, you know, this issue up the flagpole within the government, right. He was constantly faced with the stigma. And then the people who've been covering this up have weaponized the stigma. You know, if heard so many stories of high level Navy fighter pilots who see something in the air that's indisputably not from here, and before they can make an official report, somebody from the Legacy program approaches them, you know, basically like, makes jokes, makes them uncomfortable, says things like, hey, where are we going to send the tinfoil hats? You know, like how, you know, what's going to be your nickname now? That kind of stuff, you know, where, where, where you could really quickly see how a senior fighter pilot would just be like, you know what? I'm just not going to report this. I don't need this, you know? And so they weaponize it.
- [41:39]
A
Dude, there's a crazy, A great story in Annie Jacobson's book Area 51, where she explains how when the CIA first started test flying their first jet propelled airplanes, and I forget what year it was, super early, they would send the CIA test pilots up with gorilla masks in the cockpits. So in the case they got into visual distance with a commercial aircraft, they'd wear their guerrilla mask.
- [42:07]
B
Wow.
- [42:08]
A
So if they tried to go to the bar later, be like, yo, I saw this airplane powered by jets.
- [42:12]
B
That's like crazy.
- [42:13]
A
Oh, yeah. Who was flying it? A gorilla, like fucking throwing a curveball into the story.
- [42:18]
B
That's crazy. Yeah, dude, that's wild.
- [42:21]
A
Yeah. So imagine, man. Imagine if that was, that was probably what the 40s they were doing doing that 60s, 60s. Imagine what they're doing now, bro.
- [42:29]
B
Dude, that's crazy. That is crazy. That is wild.
- [42:34]
A
So this Legacy program, is this a monolithic program or is there factions of this?
- [42:41]
B
I think. Well, how do you. Those two choices you, you just laid out, how do you, how do you define those differently?
- [42:51]
A
So you talk about, in the movie, you hear about the Legacy program, You hear other people talk about the Legacy program on the Internet. It sounds like this big model how people talk about the CIA.
- [42:59]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [43:00]
A
How the CIA.
- [43:00]
B
So it's not big monolith. So it's not that. In that I learned pretty quickly, you know, leadership of the CIA doesn't necessarily know about this. You know, the director of the CIA,
- [43:09]
A
it's a political point.
- [43:10]
B
They're there for. They could be there for four years, you know, eight years, whatever.
- [43:13]
A
The CIA's thousands and thousands of employees.
- [43:15]
B
And so someone reveals in my film that it's the head of science and technology at the CIA that controls this topic. It's one person who could be there for a long time. And there's career bureaucrats within the Air Force and within the Department of Energy that really run the Legacy Program's interest in this. That's my understanding of the situation from all my interviews. It's not.
- [43:45]
A
But my, my, what I'm saying is like, is the Legacy program one big program in one inside of one umbrella underneath one company, or is it multiple companies? So all kinds of things.
- [43:58]
B
Multiple companies all working together is the best way.
- [44:00]
A
All working together, yeah. Not competing?
- [44:02]
B
No. So from, from you know, what I, what, what the big takeaway was from all my interviews is that the CIA acts as the quarterback of all this. The CIA acts as the operational command, so sits at the top of the org chart. And then the Air Force is used for operations. So they have the airplanes and they have the warehouses, the hangars, they can do the retrievals. Right. And then the defense contractors are used for reverse engineering. They are only given, you know, certain technology and tasked with certain, you know, reverse engineering work. And then the Department of Energy is apparently a key player in the situation because they have the best experts on technology that gives off great amounts of energy and anything related to Asian. Yeah, and, and they, you know, own, own the space of anything related to nuclear technology. And a lot of the UAP activity is at sites involved in the nuclear process, ranging from nuclear weapons sites to uranium mines to, you know, processing centers. So they, they also have a classification system that allows to keep all of this extremely secret. They get to, you know, use the classification system that was designed for anything nuclear.
- [45:40]
A
Right.
- [45:40]
B
So the classification system that they go by is like outside of the intelligence community's classification system, it's even more, more secretive.
- [45:50]
A
Did you talk to anybody that worked for any of these private industry companies, Any of these private military industrial complex companies?
- [45:58]
B
None of, no one from any of the defense contractors would, would, would participate.
- [46:03]
A
Did you talk? Sorry, I did.
- [46:05]
B
I talked to a couple people that used to work for some of the key players on the defense contracting side. They would not go on camera, but they helped inform me of the, the lay of the land. Give me, give me insight. People who were, I mean, those, those meetings were interesting. They'd be in person and be told to leave my cell phone at home and, you know, really no way with the defense contractors. Yeah, yeah, no way of. Cell phones can be tracked.
- [46:38]
A
Did you talk to any of the CIA scientists and technology folks?
- [46:44]
B
No.
- [46:45]
A
Did you try to.
- [46:46]
B
I didn't because a number of the people in my film made it clear to me that those folks, you know, slammed the door on even them when they were inside of government. You know, so, you know, Jay Stratton, when he was running the UAP task force, he figured out who the key gatekeeper was at the CIA and he went to go to talk to him, literally knocked on his door and wanted to see if he could get some answers to some of his big questions. And, you know, he knew that this person had 80 years of, of knowledge, you know, and essentially just legitimately, like, literally had the door slammed in his face. Wow. Yeah.
- [47:36]
A
And another crazy thing is a lot of these people at CIA who are in charge of science and technology or other levels of CIA spookiness, they all end up in the private sector. Like one of the most recent directors of science and technology for like 7 or 10 years now works at the Mitre Corporation. So there's this revolving door with the CIA and these giant private contractors.
- [48:01]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:02]
A
And they know the contractors know that these people have top secret access to, and they're going to bring all that with them, which is why they can get these insanely high salaries when they move there. Yeah, it's a, which is a form of corruption.
- [48:15]
B
You know, it's a flawed system.
- [48:16]
A
So and then that, the other question is, how do these, where are they getting all the money to do this stuff?
- [48:22]
B
Well, you know, as, as, as Dave Grush testified to Congress about, and as a number of the officials in my film say, there's been misappropriation of funds, you know, money that's supposed to go to one thing that actually goes to this. On top of that, I have been told that there's a lot of off book funding from the public sector. Wealthy, just wealthy people who are providing funding for certain technology reverse engineering work. The hopes that they'll get some, they'll, they'll get the benefit down the line from some techno technological breakthrough that's been gleamed, you know, it's a lot of money out there in the world, you know, And look, the thing, you know, people will take. One of the things people take away from the movie is that all of these folks who have been involved in covering this up, they've, they've all had their reasons for doing so. You know, that's why I keep saying it's not a black and white situation. You know, some of these people, you know, likely if you, you know, if you, if you put a gun to the head of people within the CIA that have touched this over the years, likely they would honestly say that they think they're doing the right thing. You know, that they think we are in a, we are in a technology race with adversaries. And so the best course of action ultimately is to not share with the public what we know and don't know because that also will tell our adversaries that's they might just come out, that's where they come out on it, you know, and I don't think that any of these people are villains, I really don't. I just think it's a complicated situation and there's no easy answer But I do think at the same time that we've gotten to a place where we would benefit from the basic facts being known. I do not think that a president or any leader of our country should step to the microphone and literally say everything we and don't know. That's pretty stupid when we're in a race with adversaries. But I think the base facts that we're not alone in the universe, that the US Government has in fact retrieved technology of non human origin, that adversaries have as well, and that we are in this technology race, those base facts can be comfortably shared. And what I think it will do is I think it'll motivate the scientific community and private industry and academia to really lean into this. And I think it will lead to a whole error of technological breakthroughs that we wouldn't otherwise get to.
- [51:01]
A
Yeah. And then you have the whole conflict with like the energy, like if we can, if we have this ability to have free, clean energy around the world and it's been, it's been covered up and hidden for this long, this is going to disrupt the whole petroleum industry, which is like, you know, the whole world is propped up on oil.
- [51:21]
B
Right.
- [51:21]
A
So we've been hiding free energy.
- [51:23]
B
But the energy source thing goes back to my point where I think some of these, some of these people involved in gatekeeping this.
- [51:28]
A
Yeah.
- [51:29]
B
That it's the, it's the race we're in with adversaries that they worry about. So if you look at the, the technology it, these crafts are, it's revealed in my film how these crafts are working essentially. Right. They are tapping into an energy source that we're, we are currently not tapping into. Right. And whether that is so called free energy, you know, zero point energy, or whether it's using quantum entanglement to bring large amounts of energy from somewhere else to, to that area. Whichever way they're achieving creating this much energy in a localized area, they're warping space time in a localized area. They're creating what the scientists in my film describe as a bubble around the craft. And that separates the craft from the environment around it. It allows it to do things that
- [52:18]
A
this is kind of what Bob Lazar described right. In his film.
- [52:21]
B
He did, he did describe this. Yeah. It allows the craft to operate in a way that looks like it's defying physics as we know it, but it's not defying physics as we know it. It's working within physics as we understand it. It's just in its own space time. But the reason I just went down the road is. The point is. Yes, if we figure that out, if it becomes known to mankind, this technology ex. It has been cracked. Yes. It could, as you said, solve the energy crisis. In theory, it could revolutionize the way we live. But the people who have been, you know, gatekeeping this information would also say it. It could be used by a bad actor very easily to deliver a weapon of mass destruction in the blink of an eye. And that's a terrifying thought. And so see how it's. It's not black or it's not a black or white situation. Yes, it could solve the energy crisis, but, you know, a bad actor in his garage could make, you know, a weapon of mass destruction all of a sudden. Right. And that's absolutely terrifying. So, you know, again, the people who have been involved in this would say, that's the only reason you need to just keep it locked down and keep it quiet.
- [53:25]
A
Right. That's more like crazy hypothetical situation. Imagine some of the people that are on the boards of these private industry companies also, like, own a huge stake in oil companies too, do. Like, if I get this out, I'm gonna lose billions of dollars. So I'm just gonna keep a secret for as long as I can and hold the gun to the head of every government around the world, knowing that if I wanted to, I could. Like, it seems like this stuff, there's a lot of. If weaponized, it could be more powerful than every military around the world and every government combined.
- [53:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, you don't. Right now, generally speaking, my understanding is that you essentially need to be a nation state to have the means to build nuclear weapons. If this technology and the ability to tap into energy like this was made public, you do not need to be a nation state. You could literally be a bad actor in your garage in middle America, and you could make something as destructive as a nuclear weapon.
- [54:23]
A
You could be a rogue breakaway military that's more powerful than any nation state.
- [54:29]
B
Or do you want this ending up in the hands of, like, terrorists?
- [54:31]
A
Like, you know, imagine cartels get free energy weapons and UFOs.
- [54:37]
B
It's crazy. But so when you, when you talk about this, then you quickly start to realize, you know, no matter how much people like us who grew up, you know, watching Close Encounters and ET and interested in this, would like to know the truth and learn about it all. Yeah. You quickly get to, like, having to be honest and understand why these people have kept this all secret. It's a complicated mess, you know, and. And they kill people from what I understand people. People have.
- [55:02]
A
I mean, just look at the Boeing with the Boeing whistleblowers, with the whole Boeing lawsuit. Did you follow that at all?
- [55:09]
B
It was.
- [55:09]
A
I was all these people that were like, in line to go in front of Congress or give their testimony, just like, you know, killing themselves by shooting themselves in the head five times.
- [55:17]
B
It's horrible.
- [55:18]
A
It's crazy.
- [55:19]
B
It's really horrible.
- [55:20]
A
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- [56:44]
B
We sent you one of the interview subjects, my film, who I, who I got really close with and, and who I think is a great guy and one of the most brilliant people I've met. One of the most interesting people I've ever met too is hal pud off. Dr. Hal Pudoff. He's a senior scientist. He's been involved in a lot of highly classified programs dealing with UAP and all sorts of other things. And, you know, we've Had a lot of conversations like the one we're having now about, you know, the pros and cons of disclosure and why it's such a complicated situation and all these special interests and all these concerns, these valid concerns people have and where. He ultimately comes out on it as a guy who's been around this topic for decades and is in his 80s now, he ultimately comes out thinking that we need to make it a humanitarian issue in the same way that we do with nuclear technology. You know, like just tackle it as, as a species. Like world leaders need to just come together on, on a plan for how to use this for good and to safeguard the public from destruction. You know, there's laws that were made around nuclear technologies. Like, you know, you can't, private company can't go and say, hey, I'm going to build a nuclear weapon. You know, they would be stopped so.
- [57:57]
A
By who?
- [57:58]
B
The government? So it's illegal to build nuclear weapons?
- [58:00]
A
Yeah, but you think they could, think the government could really stop them? If four star generals can't get access to the secret programs, what's going to stop from building? Attaching a nuke to a tick tock?
- [58:09]
B
Maybe, but look, I think, I think there could be an attempt to, to,
- [58:12]
A
but I don't think, I think this stuff makes nuclear weapons obsolete though.
- [58:17]
B
Well, not obsolete, but they're just superior. It would create superior weapons. Yeah. So anyway, I mean look, maybe Hal's right, maybe he's wrong, but his outlook is that because this technology could be so revolutionary to the way we live and because the truth about all this could in theory unite humanity, it could make all of humanity realize that we have more in common than we have differences. And because there's potential for all this positive outcome, he thinks that the best thing is to do a level set with the public and make this a humanitarian issue where we figure out as a whole how to deal with it. Now look, that might just not be in the cards. That might not be possible. The dynamics might, might not. The dynamics between us and our adversaries might not allow for that. But it's, it's certainly in my opinion the most interesting time to be alive because some, some, some amount of the truth is, is coming out right now. You know, my film makes it clear that there has in fact been a cover up of non human intelligent life. This technology does exist. And now we have, you know, we had a president put this, put this disclosure directive in motion and so it's playing out right now. We'll see.
- [59:45]
A
You know, and also why haven't we seen. Do they plan on using any of this stuff on the battlefield?
- [59:53]
B
You know, that's an interesting point. I'm glad you brought that up. Someone really senior that, in the intelligence community that's in my film told me that when he formed a confidential relationship with someone in the leadership of the Legacy program, he asked them straight up, would we break this technology out on the battlefield to win a war or prevent a war? And the answer quickly was no, that we would not show this card unless it was to prevent nuclear destruction. Like the last, like a, like a last, last. The last thing, the last card that we played, basically. And the idea being that the reason being once, once you show this card, then again you're showing your adversaries what you know and don't know and you're, you're, you're opening this giant can of worms and you're telling the public, we got this. And, and I remember when I was told that, and I was, that was, that was pretty mind blowing. So, no, I don't think, I don't think it's been, I don't think it's been used.
- [61:04]
A
Did they give you any idea of how they could weaponize it?
- [61:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, if you, you know, as it's described in the film, you know, you create a bubble and if you warp space time in a localized area, you can create a bubble around anything, a craft, you know, a weapon of mass destruction, anything. So, like, the way you, the way you could use it is, I think, pretty, pretty clear. It's a.
- [61:30]
A
So you can instant move a, a weapon from point A to point B instantaneously.
- [61:35]
B
Yeah. Or a craft with weapons on it. Right. I mean, if you go from, if you can go from, if you can travel great distances in the blink of an eye, then yeah, that's how you do it. What do you. I'm just, I'm curious. You've talked a lot about this topic. Like where, where would you come out and when, when you start talking about the ways that this technology can be used, you know, for bad, but then, you know, solve the energy crisis. Sounds awesome, right? Where do you come at it? Do you think, do you think it's possible to, to make it a humanitarian issue and, and figure it out with our allies and adversaries at a high level? Or do you think that ultimately game and people's, you know, gamemanship will come in and geopolitics will come in and
- [62:17]
A
I think ultimately there's probably so many layers above this and above the, so many layers above not only the politicians and the CIA, but above that you have like this, this decentralized mafia layer and banking layer that controls all them and probably own some of these corporations and own these politicians and control everything that happens. And that just like work behind the curtain. And it's hard to be optimistic that like humanity can rise up and overthrow that. You know, especially with the like all this Epstein stuff that's come out that like basically shows how these people work behind the scenes and that like politicians are basically like fake stand ins. Yeah. You know, again I hope like Dave Grush was when he came out and did that and all these congressional hearings started happening. Like it gave me a lot of hope. Like, you know, maybe we can see shine. They can shine just enough light to get people. Because now I, I will say this at least now the UFO topic in general, I don't think it's stigmatized anymore. It's completely out of the bag. That's a completely normal thing for everyone to talk about, right?
- [63:40]
B
Yeah, I actually think that's the thing I'm the most proud of, of with my film. With the age of disclosures, I really think it puts the nail in the coffin for the stigma.
- [63:47]
A
We all know, everybody knows UFOs are real.
- [63:49]
B
You can't watch that film and not be like, okay, this is 100. Yeah, 100.
- [63:53]
A
So what's the next level of that? You know, like where does that move to next? The, the thing is when there is this gap in knowledge, people are just going to fill it with whatever. They're going to fill it with whatever they want to believe. They're going to fill it with aliens, extraterrestrials, time traveling humans, religious angels and demons. Religious stuff. And again, that stuff, it's like there's factions, it seems like in the intelligence and military communities that all have different views on this stuff. Like there's people that are in the military, in intelligence and in higher levels of government who think that it's like Angel. J.D. vance said that.
- [64:33]
B
Yeah.
- [64:34]
A
He thinks they're angels and demons.
- [64:35]
B
No, people are applying their, their belief systems to it, which is not surprising.
- [64:39]
A
You know, that's what happens when they don't give, when the, when the people in charge don't give a definitive analysis of it. They just sort of like, here's this crazy shit. Do with it what you will.
- [64:50]
B
That's why I really do think we need the equivalent of Kennedy's space race speech that he gave at Rice University. Like just that, that level set of we have retrieve craft, actual aircraft like technology, not spiritual stuff, technology of non human origin. And so have our adversaries and our allies. And there is this race and we need to win this race for the following reasons. Right. Just like that, kind of a level set. I think that will take it out of all this, like guessing game of what it is and just make it a real thing for people. The reason I think this, the, the space race analogy is so great too is like, think about it like, there's probably a lot of people at that time throughout the country that the idea, like if you were to go up to them prior to Kennedy's speech and say the moon, the thing up in the sky, there, we're going to go there, they would laugh at you and be like, that sounds crazy. In the context of that time, it probably sounds crazy. Right, right, totally. But then a president and other leaders in the country saying that that's a real thing that can happen and we're going to make it a national priority. It made it like an accepted idea that that's possible, you know, and then people put their brain power towards it. So I think like that, that sort of a level set with the American public is I think what we're gonna get, and I think we'll get it relatively soon.
- [66:10]
A
What was Hal and Eric Davis? What was their view on what this stuff was? Did they have like a singular view or was, do they think it was a.
- [66:19]
B
No, they think, they think it's a, you know, for lack of better words, like a, like a smorgasbord, like possibilities. The, you know, interdimensional extraterrestrial, ultra terrestrial, you know, might have been. There might be a species that has been here all along and some, at some point long time ago, broke off the human family tree. You know, there's so much of our, our planet that we haven't explored properly, you know.
- [66:49]
A
Yeah, we've explored more of the surface of Mars than we have of our own ocean floor.
- [66:52]
B
Ocean floors. You know, people are, forget we have an entire continent that's essentially, you know, on, on, on unexplored. Yeah, I mean, Antarctica is just like a big mystery box, you know, hide, great place to hide. And you could, an entire species could have, you know, could, could be under, under the ice in Antarctica and we'd have no idea. We're, we're in a little bubble, you know, I mean, it could be like, literally, I mean, I'm making a joke here, but I mean like, you watch a movie like Black Panther and you're like, you know what it's an entire advanced species that's coexisted alongside humanity. They've developed ahead of us. They have technology that we don't have. They're worried about our, our, our, our blossoming, you know, technological advancements. Right. And they don't want us to end up having their technology because it could destroy the world. Right. You're like, all right, very familiar story. Yeah. So, you know, look, there's a lot of possibilities. The only thing that's certain is that, you know, a number of the people in my film know as a fact from their, from their work with the government that crafts of non human origin have indeed crashed or been caused to crash, and we have recovered them. It's tangible technology. And in some cases there's been non human beings in these crafts. And you know, the other thing is, and they say, people say it in my film, but there, there is indisputable video evidence that exists. It's just classified. So, you know, the best we can get now is. Is credible people put in any of it. I have not seen anything that's classified. No. But the best we can get now is people who have great reputations putting their credibility on the line saying on camera, I have seen with my own eyes, yeah. Craft of non human origin. I have seen non human beings. I have seen evidence that is classified that, that is indisputable. Like, that's the best we can get now.
- [68:55]
A
Yeah.
- [68:55]
B
Until they can leave, until that information can legally be. Those videos and photos can legally be shared. The best you can get is someone credible putting their rep on the line saying, I have seen that it exists. Right. And so that's where we are now. And I think in this age of disclosure we're living in, I think we will eventually get to some of that stuff being, being unclassified and shared with some kind of thoughtful context.
- [69:18]
A
And it seems like these things have the. Certainly have the ability to make themselves visible or not at will. I think one of the interesting things you and Rogan were talking about on his podcast, which was a great analogy, I thought, how taking a photo of fish under the water, the water basically like warps and occludes and blurs out the fish. You can barely see it because there's this layer. Right. Of elements between you and the fish. Yeah.
- [69:44]
B
So.
- [69:45]
A
And like the same thing with these UFOs, like if they're creating some sort of a gravity bubble around them or something, or warping space time around them, it's going to be like essentially cloakable.
- [69:55]
B
Yeah. So people always say you know, the, the, the average person always says, well, if these things are out there, how come no one's ever gotten a good video with their iPhone? Everyone's got a 4K camera in their pocket. Yeah, everyone has a 4K camera in their pocket. But it's the same reason why everyone with a 4K camera in their pocket can't get clear video of fish under the ocean from above the ocean. It's not possible. You know, if, you know the koi pond analogy, if you stand above a koi pond and you see the fish down there with your naked eye and you take out your iPhone and you try to film them, it's going to look all distorted because you're literally filming through a barrier, you know, a different medium. There's the top of the water, you know, you're above the water. They're. They're below the water line. Exactly. And so it's the same thing here. If you try filming these things from outside the bubble that they've created the bubble around them, then you're just trying to. You're trying to film through a space time barrier, essentially. Right? You're never going to get anything more than the kind of footage we get now. Right. But at the same time, I've been told that there is video evidence that exists at a classified level of these craft when the bubble is turned off, where you can see clear as day, the craft. And that's the stuff that people in my film have seen and go on the record saying exists. It's very clear cut, indisputable.
- [71:27]
A
I've heard from folks that I've had on this podcast who are like the most tapped in, dorkiest UFO dorks ever, who really study this stuff. That out of all the agencies that look at the UFO topic, the one that knows the most about everything is the Navy and the under. There's, there's this pro, this agency called the. I think it's the U. NRO or NRO something. It's like the underwater nro, like the National Reconnaissance Office of the Ocean. And like, if we see so many of these things coming out of the oceans all the time, and we have, I mean, historical evidence back into, like the beginning of written history of these things coming out of the ocean. Like, what have these nuclear submarine pilots seen or like detected on their radars, I wonder? Because you don't hear a lot about that.
- [72:27]
B
Probably a lot. Probably a lot. Look, I do think the Navy knows a lot for sure. You know, Jay Stratton, who ran the UAP task Force and who co created OS app with Caskey which became, you know, a tip. He comes from naval intelligence, a very senior naval intelligence official. But I do believe him and his colleagues who I've gotten to know well when they say that despite the Navy having learned a lot, they are still boxed out by the Legacy program and they are still like, you know, on their own parallel path to, to figure this all out. I think they collect a lot of data though.
- [73:14]
A
Yeah.
- [73:15]
B
Like a lot of data at a classified level.
- [73:17]
A
There's got to be so much more under the water. If I was just to guess. Yeah, I would guess there'd be so much more because you can't obviously you can't take. I don't think that they have cameras outside their submarines. They can take photos of stuff but I'm sure they have some sort of ways of detecting it.
- [73:29]
B
No stuff they're catching on sonar, they're grabbing that data for.
- [73:32]
A
Right.
- [73:33]
B
The, the, the, the.
- [73:37]
A
Tim Galldet told us a crazy story. What's that about a navy captain, a submarine captain who he talked to who explained they had like their signals going off inside their nuclear submarine somewhere in like the North Atlantic or whatever of like an incoming. Something really fast, like the fat. As fast as a missile. And it came up like really close behind him and it ended up being like way bigger than their submarine, like 10 times bigger than their submarine. And it just stopped on a dime and then vanished.
- [74:10]
B
Jesus, that's bananas.
- [74:14]
A
That's got to be so scary because you're a sitting duck inside this metal tube in the middle of the ocean.
- [74:19]
B
Yeah. I mean think back to, you know, for ref. For, for context like think back to movies like Hunt for Red October, like those claustrophobic like sardine can at the bottom. Right. It's terrifying. Right, right. Terrifying. It makes me, it makes me, you know, whenever we talk about the under the water activity, it makes me think that maybe, maybe James Cameron was ahead of his time and you know, onto something. Yeah, the water stuff's spooky. Abyss. The abyss makes you rethink this. You know, it is spooky. The, the people I've spoken to who have seen with their own eyes some of those kind of events. It's all been on nuclear weapon sites. I mean I've, you know, for example, that in my film one of the, one of the interview subjects was a Air Force security guard at Vanderburg Air Force Base on the California coast. I live in Los Angeles and this is just like a couple hours north of us, right around Santa Barbara. And he goes on the record on camera for the first time, saying that he personally witnessed. He was standing guard at a nuclear weapons site. Sorry, that was not a nuclear weapons site. That was aidenberg. Yeah, it was a missile site.
- [75:32]
A
That's where their interceptor system is based. Yeah, there in Alaska.
- [75:35]
B
Exactly. It was a missile site that he was guarding. It was not a nuclear weapon site, but it was part of our defense system, key part of our defense system, as you said. And he said that him and a few other guards. I think it might have been. Might have been six. I can't remember off time I had. It was either three or six. But they saw a light approaching from the Pacific Ocean going towards the base. At first they thought it was an airplane, like, heading towards the base, which also concerned them, but that's what they thought it was at first. And then as it got closer, like, the size just completely changed. And all of a sudden they saw a. And the light went away. And all of a sudden they saw a matte black giant object the size of a football field described as, like, to the left and to the right of their. Jesus, their eyeline. And he said that it slowed almost to a stop when it came above the base. And then it kind of hovered above them for. I can't remember whether he said, like 30 seconds or 60 seconds, but short, short while. And he said they all just kind of stood there in awe, staring at this thing, processing this. He said there was no lights, no windows, no visual, you know, visible means of propulsion. It was just there, this giant rectangular object the size of a football field. And then he said it took off thousands of miles an hour up the coast. And, you know, there was also the
- [76:55]
A
guy, Bob Jacobs, who.
- [76:57]
B
Bob Jacobs is in decades ago, he's in the film.
- [76:59]
A
He talked about they were sending dummy nukes up or something.
- [77:02]
B
Yeah, Same base, Vandenberg Air Force Base, decades prior. He's interviewed in the film as well. He was a cameraman for the Air Force. His job was to film a missile test that was happening. And they shot a dummy missile up, and they had it being filmed by a bunch of different cameras just to study. Study it. And while they were filming, a UAP came into frame and moved around, zapped the missile, zapping it as this missile was moving along thousands of miles an hour and fell out of the sky, Right? Yeah. And then. And then this UAP just took off and. And it was all caught on camera. And, you know, he was told, you know, never to talk about it. And. And, you know, essentially like, wow, dude, threatened in a way.
- [77:51]
A
And haven't they used nukes to try to, like, bait the UFOs in?
- [77:54]
B
Yeah, so that's one of the really fascinating things that my interview subject shared. And a long time ago, they realized folks involved in covering this up in the legacy program and in other, you know, areas like the Navy, they, they. They. They learned that nuclear footprints attract these things. They're. They're paying attention to our nuclear progress and to what we do with nuclear technology. And so they started creating environments that would attract UAP and lure them in, and then they could collect data and get. Get. Get information that would help them in their technology race. I do believe that. My understanding is some lines were crossed where they also caused some of these crashes. They would lower them in, and they would create circumstances that would cause some crashes, which seems like a pretty risky decision. But at the same time, I think my understanding is that adversarial nations have done this and do this so that. So if we don't do it, then we would fall behind again. One of those, like, examples of this being a super complicated situation, you know, sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't in any part of this whole conversation. And I found that fascinating. Interestingly, I just learned through some of my relationships in the government right now that some of the intelligence officials who have been tasked with identifying what evidence can be lawfully disclosed following President Trump's directive, some of them learned that various agencies and branches of the military had been luring these things in in the past and that they had figured out how to do that. And these intelligence officials asked for a demonstration of that as recent as a couple weeks ago, and apparently saw with their own eyes uap. I was told this in confidence by a couple people within the last couple weeks. And then, interestingly, Congressman Burleson, who also had learned this, shared it on a podcast, I think, last week, a few days ago, that he had heard the same thing. If true, pretty shocking.
- [80:28]
A
Who are they showing this to?
- [80:30]
B
So, so it was some of the intelligence officials tasked by a member of the current cabinet to uncover evidence that can be declassified. Trump gives a directive, we need to identify what evidence exists that can be declassified. Right. So then he tells certain cabinet members, you know, get on that. Right. And then they have their teams go and shake those trees. And in that process, apparently some of them were given a demonstration on how UAP can be lured in on how
- [81:06]
A
to lure them in.
- [81:07]
B
Yeah. And apparently saw with their own eyes, which was a game changer.
- [81:10]
A
And Burleson said this on a podcast?
- [81:12]
B
Yeah, I had heard this from multiple sources prior to Burleson saying it on a podcast recently. Yeah, within the last couple weeks.
- [81:18]
A
Wow.
- [81:18]
B
And then it was three or four days ago, Congressman Burleson said it on, on a podcast. I was just going to keep it to myself, but then he, you know, he brought it up. So there you go. It's interesting. How were they if that's true, if that really happened? It's a pretty.
- [81:32]
A
Is this the psionic stuff?
- [81:34]
B
Incredible escalation. I honestly don't know how they actually, how they actually did it. And the people, people I've talked to, I'm sure you know, such as Drake, such as Jay Stratton.
- [81:45]
A
Yeah.
- [81:46]
B
Have told me that in the past nuclear footprints were used so you could put a nuclear submarine in a certain area and nearby it, you could put another vessel with a, with a nuclear weapon on it and that footprint will attract. Whoa. Yeah. So actually something that you know, your listeners will find fascinating. So, so Jay actually has a big memoir coming out later this year, Jay Stratton, and it's his tell all book about his journey down this rabbit hole over the investigating UAP and non human intelligent life for, for 16 years. And he goes into a lot of detail on this stuff and the learnings that, you know, he and his colleagues had about how these things could be lured in and how they, how, how elements of our government and other governments have been doing that.
- [82:52]
A
Did they ever talk to you about or did he ever mention, or anyone ever mentioned any of this psionic stuff?
- [82:56]
B
No, no, I've read, I've, I've, you know, like you, I've seen, I've seen other people talk about it on, online as well stuff, but I, no one ever talked to me about that.
- [83:04]
A
Never heard anything about that.
- [83:05]
B
What, what have you found to be the most interesting about it?
- [83:10]
A
There was a guy, Michael Herrera, who was one of the whistleblowers who came out. I forget how long ago it was. I want to say the 90s maybe. I could be wrong, could be in the 2000s who said that he was working in the military somewhere in remote jungles of, of Indonesia or something.
- [83:29]
B
Yeah, I remember that, remember.
- [83:31]
A
And they, and there was like an earthquake, a humanitarian crisis where they were rescuing people, but what they were really doing is taking these like indigenous people, children, kidnapping them. And then like all of a sudden like these like crazy looking ships showed up like these like, like almost human made crafts like UFOs and they were loading these people Onto them. Them.
- [83:55]
B
Wow.
- [83:57]
A
And taking them away. And, and what I guess he learned, or what we eventually learned through other whistleblowers is that they were using these people who were sort of like not indoctrinated into western society, into the technological world that we live in here. People that are more tied to nature, younger people, they were even finding people who were left handed or gay. And something about them was enabling them to tap into something where they could use their minds to consciously control the UFOs.
- [84:37]
B
Wow.
- [84:37]
A
Sounds crazy. There was a guy that Jesse Michaels had in his podcast who was. I forget his name now, but he worked for some private company or whatever and he said that he was there to red team Michael Herrera when he did his press thing. And he said he would, he was going in there as like counter intel to like find out who was spilling the secrets. And then when he heard Michael Carrera give that testimony, he, this guy realized, he goes, holy. I was there. I was a part of that team that was doing that. I was one of the guys that he saw. And then I guess his story was like. That like made him want to tell his story and like switch teams but. And then that's like the whole. That's as far as what I'm aware of.
- [85:20]
B
I, I don't know anything about that particular event.
- [85:24]
A
No, that was not Roscoe. That was a different guy that you see Michael's head on.
- [85:28]
B
I don't know about that particular event in the jungle other than what you know, I've read online once Michael started sharing that. But I have heard about, I have heard that their are people who have the ability to communicate using the power of their mind. I know that probably is like the most wacky sounding thing.
- [85:59]
A
Not at all.
- [85:59]
B
Your listeners are.
- [86:00]
A
Have you seen my library?
- [86:02]
B
I know, but there's certainly going to be some of your listeners who are like, man, that guy's out as mine, you know. But this is what I've been told by super serious people. There, there are a bunch of, There's a bunch of really grounded. Not a bunch. That's the stupidest way to say it. There's a lot of, there's a lot of data that shows that this, this is a real area of inquiry. So if you get out of the UAP topic for a second. So Stargate was a real program that really existed. There is so much evidence of it that's been declassified. Dr. Hal Puthoff, who's in my film, who's very involved in the UAP topic, he ran Stargate. He was Tasked with building Stargate. And what Stargate was, was a program that identified people who have psychic abilities and they trained them to use their mind's eye to wander to remote locations and to be able to do what's called remote viewing. To see a location remotely. Sounds crazy, right? Just sounds completely bananas. But that was a real program that our government funded. The CIA and DARPA and, and the Department of Defense funded that for years and they got actionable intelligence out of it. So something that Joe Rogan and I talked about this for a while. There's, there's even, there's even recordings of past presidents talking about this as a valid thing. Jimmy Carter made a couple statements on it before he died saying that they, the military actually acted on intelligence that the remote viewers gave and it worked. They used it. He, he famously gave a quote about a remote viewer being used to find a missing airplane, a crashed, a crashed fighter jet that had, that had fallen off radar.
- [88:11]
A
Yeah.
- [88:11]
B
And so there's all these, there's all this data out there that's, that's indisputable that that program existed. It was real. There's a there there. Right. It's a real situation. And so it's not the craziest leap to go from accepting that remote viewing is a real thing. Even though it's hard to understand and hard to, you know, wrap your head around to, to, to, to, to, to thinking that maybe people who have those abilities can also communicate from a distance with non human life. There are, there are people who have told me that that is a thing, that, that there are people who have the ability to do that and that it's referred to as space, Space, intelligence, communications.
- [89:08]
A
Let's put a pin there. I gotta piss so bad I can taste it. We're back.
- [89:13]
B
So, you know, we're talking about a lot of stuff that I think to the average person just sounds completely bananas and extraordinary and I'm totally not to our audience though. Well, you know, I'm conscious of it for sure. And so it's, I think it's always worth, you know, it's always worth saying like for me, when, you know, when making the Age of Disclosure, I only interviewed extremely credible people who had a lot to lose, reputation wise and who actually had direct knowledge of this stuff as a result of working for the government. Because, because I feel like my personal opinion, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners feel the same. Short of indisputable video evidence or a craft landing in Times Square and non human intelligent life walking out Short of that level of in your face evidence, the best we can really hope for is extremely credible people putting their reputation on the line to share what they can. That's really what it comes down to. Like, that is, that's the best we can hope for short of that, that dream scenario. Right, right. And so, you know, that, that is, that is sort of the bar I've always held. Like, you know, I, I put weight in things said by people who fit that description, you know, and whether that's, you know, a very senior politician who has a lot to lose because, you know, A, he sits on classified committees and doesn't want to lose his seat, B, wants to run for president one day, you know, all these other things, whether it's someone like that or whether it's an intelligence official who, you know, doesn't want to get himself killed and doesn't want to, you know, lose his ability, lose his clearance, his security clearance and doesn't want to lose his ability to provide for his family. Someone like that speaking up, up and sharing with you lawfully. Can I, I, I put, I put a lot of stock.
- [91:10]
A
Yeah.
- [91:11]
B
Things credible people say.
- [91:12]
A
Yeah.
- [91:13]
B
When they have a lot to lose.
- [91:14]
A
And it's interesting too, like we alluded to this briefly earlier, but how these people can I just now thought of this for the first time ever, is that they can use that top secret clearance that they have or that special access that they have as leverage to earn more money in different private organizations.
- [91:31]
B
Oh yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, a lot of people don't realize this. If you're a high level intelligence official at like Navy Intelligence or within the Department of Defense or the CIA and you retire, you're collecting your pension as a government worker. What a lot of them do after they retire from government work, they go and they work in the private sector. They work for a big defense contractor or they work for, you know, a big pharmaceutical company. And one of the requirements for those jobs after is that they, they have a security clearance and they're set up to be able to like, actually work on whatever, whatever classified projects those private companies are doing for elements of the government. Right.
- [92:16]
A
Yes.
- [92:17]
B
And if you, if, if, if you piss off the wrong people or you start making things up and look crazy or untrustworthy, you're going to lose your clearance and you're not going to be able to provide for your family. Right. And so no one who spoke on camera in my film and revealed these extraordinary truths lost their clearances after. No one, you know, you know, lost their job if anything, many of them excelled. You know, when I interviewed Rubio, he was Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He said these extraordinary things in my film. Did he get Left out of D.C. no, he got escalated to the second most powerful guy in the world, our Secretary of State.
- [93:07]
A
Interesting.
- [93:08]
B
And our National Security Advisor. You know, there's only one time in American history that one person has been the National Security Advisor and the Secretary of State at the same time was Henry Kissinger for two years. Mm. It's like such rare error. And you unprecedented access to information. You know, number of the people in my film are actively working in the private sector using their clearances.
- [93:37]
A
Really?
- [93:37]
B
Yeah, a number of them. Dozens of them, actually. And, you know, none of them have been, you know, laughed out of the room or called crazy or had their rapture because they really stuck to what is true that can be lawfully disclosed. And so. Yeah.
- [93:53]
A
What did you make of James Clapper?
- [93:56]
B
I think that James Clapper, the interview he did was him attempting to come clean with the American public in the only way he could. That's what I think. I think he's a guy who's in his 80s. He's been at the highest levels of the intelligence community for decades. He was the head of Air Force Intelligence. He was the Director of National Intelligence.
- [94:26]
A
Yeah.
- [94:27]
B
He's been the head of multiple other intelligence agencies. He's never publicly revealed anything on this topic, but he agreed to participate in my film and play a role in disclosure, and he shared what he could. And it was pretty significant, actually. For those who haven't seen the film on camera, James Clapper confirms that UAP activity over Area 51 is, in fact, real. It's not conspiracy, it's not nonsense. It is a real situation. And he confirmed that. Despite the Air Force saying they have not had any investigation of UAP since the closure of Project Blue Book. He says when he was the head of Air Force Intelligence, they did, in fact, have a program to actively investigate uap. So he unveiled the Air Force's actual role in all this, their hidden role. And he, I think, did a big service to the public and to squashing the stigma by acknowledging that UAP activity over Area 51 is real. Because I think for most people around the world, the idea of UAP and Area 50 and the mysteries around Area 51, they've been sensationalized so much, you know, in movies and TV shows, that I think most people don't think it's real. And I think here, here, here was a guy putting his credibility on the line late in life to say that that is real. It's a valid area of inquiry. And I remember, you know, when I interviewed him, I'm this. This far away from him, and I remember feeling it like he had just got this off his chest, you know, like he got away. Off his chest. Yeah. When he said that, and I think he was at a place in life where he just. He want. He wanted to. He wanted to sort of like, give. Give that to the public and, you know, come clean on some of these basic facts. You know, he. Kai's a general. General Jim Clapper, right?
- [96:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, he is.
- [96:30]
B
You know, and, yeah, he's been caught up in some political stuff. There was the whole thing with lying to Congress. Yeah. There was this whole Biden laptop thing. I know a lot of people will say, well, I don't think he was honest about that, so how do I know he's honest about this? Your call on who you want to believe. But what would he get out of line? What would a guy in his 80s get out of going and participating in this film that he knows is all about disclosure? He knew in advance. Rubio Rounds, Gillibrand, Jay Stratton, Chris Mellon, Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis, White House, National Security Council members all were coming out of the shadows to speak up about what they could legally. Why. Why would he participate and say the things he said?
- [97:17]
A
Have you played that out? Have you thought about that?
- [97:19]
B
Yeah.
- [97:20]
A
Why would he. Is there. Can you think of any reasonable explanation of why he would make it?
- [97:24]
B
No, no. Especially when you add in. In context that, like, I alone would have. Like, the, the people watching my film wouldn't have. His wife was in the hospital dying, like, in her. In her final weeks. He had been sitting by her bedside every day. He took a couple hours off to come straight from the hospital to do this, and then went back to the hospital. Like, you know, Kenny told me. I actually said. When I, When I, When. When I learned, like a day before that that was the circumstances he was dealing with personally, I reached out and said, hey, you know, if it's not the right time in life, it's. It's. It's all good, you know. You know, and he was like, no, this is important. So, you know, and, and, and, and it'd be easier to go down the conspiratorial route of, you know, the people, people making up stories if it was, like, a few people. But I interviewed 34 people on camera. Camera. 34 senior members of the military government intelligence community that, that many of which aren't even don't know each other, you know.
- [98:27]
A
Did Jay get you in touch with Clapper?
- [98:31]
B
No.
- [98:32]
A
Okay. No, I just think it's, you know, it's important to keep in mind some of that stuff, the history of these people, you know, because even if somebody is a military general and at the top of the food chain of the American. American government or intelligence organization, doesn't always mean, in fact, almost never means they're going to tell you the truth. And, you know, it is important to know that this guy literally lied to Congress and said that the NSA was not spying on American citizens. Two months before Snowden leave. The NSA documents proving that they were spying on American citizens. Yeah.
- [99:03]
B
Look, I do think that, you know, if he had lied in the past, maybe this was a way to kind of make up for it. Maybe this was. Maybe this was like, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do the right thing this, this time, and I'm gonna share that this is a real situation.
- [99:21]
A
Right.
- [99:21]
B
If you study his body language in the doc, that's. That's the impression I get. Like, he's not excited to do what he's doing, but he's doing it because he think, like, thinks he should.
- [99:32]
A
He's getting up there in age, man. You know, a lot of these people are.
- [99:36]
B
Look at his face in the film when you watch.
- [99:38]
A
I did. I did.
- [99:39]
B
After he says the Area 51 line, you could tell there was other people in the room with me, actually, that picked up on this, too. He immediately kind of looked down, and it was like, as if he was thinking to himself, like, well, I just said it. So hopefully. Hopefully, that's okay. You know, like, it kind of just came out. Yeah. And. Yeah. But I mean, you know, what. What would be. What would be the narrative if all 34 people in this film that were. They're all saying the same thing and all sharing information they have personally learned to be true. They're all sharing it. It all fits together. It all. It all. It all works together.
- [100:24]
A
Yeah.
- [100:25]
B
What would be. What would be the alternative to the truth?
- [100:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, I would personally just be very skeptical if it all fit together perfectly, you know, and it was like bow tied up and up in a little. It's like, you know, I would be skeptical that they would be trying to push out a narrative to the American public, you know, a specific narrative. You know, who knows? You know, who knows? Maybe they're trying to protect some sort of secret military weapons program that they've been working on since the 40s when they, when Roswell happened. And they want to convince him they've learned what it is, they know how it works.
- [101:04]
B
Works.
- [101:04]
A
They're trying to figure out more about how it works and they want to put out some sort of a public limited hangout.
- [101:10]
B
Right.
- [101:10]
A
And let everyone, make everyone think that this is real disclosure, when in fact it's a completely separate narrative from what they think it really is. They want to throw people off the scent, you know, back to the whole Paul Benowitz story, but on a whole grander scheme.
- [101:22]
B
So, okay, so if you play that out, which of course I've had that, I've had that thought, you play that out, then where you land is elements of the US government cracked a new energy source in the 40s and kept it secret and never used it to benefit our country.
- [101:40]
A
Right.
- [101:42]
B
And
- [101:44]
A
well, it's private industry.
- [101:45]
B
Right. It doesn't make any sense because private industry wants to make money. You know, if someone had cracked a new energy source in the 40s, I think they would have used it it to become the most valuable company on the planet. None of the defense contractors are even in the top hundred most valuable companies in America, much less the world.
- [102:05]
A
Really?
- [102:06]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [102:09]
A
Northrop and Lockheed and, and Raytheon and all those.
- [102:12]
B
No, look at their market caps compared to like Nvidia, you know. Yeah, it's not even on the same.
- [102:18]
A
What about like Palantir? I mean all. Yeah, these in, they're big, don't get me wrong.
- [102:21]
B
They're big, big business. But they're not, they're not the most valuable companies on earth, which I just, personally I would be curious believe they would be.
- [102:31]
A
I would be curious. Can we ask one of the AIs, like compare the GDP of the top five or top 10 United States military contractors versus well, no, just do, just do market cap.
- [102:45]
B
Lockheed Martin versus Nvidia.
- [102:48]
A
Well, don't you. No, don't do that. Do, do top 10 United States military contractors versus what would be the other industry that could, that could compete with that, you think?
- [103:02]
B
I mean if you're just looking at market cap. Just, just, just, just, just just ask, just ask yeah. If, if any of the major defense contractors are in the top 10 corporations cap wise? I don't think the answer is yes.
- [103:18]
A
Yeah, I'd be curious to see what they would compete with and where they would stack with that.
- [103:23]
B
But so if, look, if someone cracked this kind of technology in the 40s, my point is I think they would have used it to make a fortune if they were a private company, if they were the government, I think they would have used it in other ways. I don't think that technology would. I don't understand any upside to that. That technology being completely hidden since the 40s. That doesn't make any sense to me.
- [103:51]
A
You might be right. Anything, Steve. Major US defense contractors are generally not in the top 10 most valuable companies globally by market capitalization as of 2016. While firms like Lockheed Martin, RTX, formerly Raytheon, General Dynamics, Boeing and Northrop Grumman are top tier defense revenue. They are smaller in market valuation compared to tech giants such as Apple, Microsoft, Nvidia and Alphabet.
- [104:16]
B
Yeah, so it's just not, it's just not realistic. Like, you know, everyone I spoke to says that some of those defense contractors listed there are involved in this. Yeah, they would just, they would be such bigger, more valuable companies if they had this technology for that long. I think they are involved in reverse engineering it now and I think they're making massive breakthroughs and maybe some of them are finally like there already in their black programs. But I do not believe that, you know, this is organic human technological breakthroughs that we've had since the forties. I call bullshit.
- [104:59]
A
How many people do you think, think,
- [105:01]
B
oh wait, here's the other point. Yeah, military pilots saw UAP during World War II.
- [105:10]
A
Yeah.
- [105:10]
B
If we had that technology, don't you think World War II would have ended a lot quicker? You know, like, would we have stayed in World War II? Right. No. That's bonkers. Right.
- [105:22]
A
We probably hadn't figured out a way to harness it.
- [105:25]
B
There were orbs flying next to, to fighter pilots. Energy balls that were flying a long time. They called them, they called them foo fighters. You know, it if that was ours, if we had cracked this technology that allowed us to harness energy in a localized area and create these little crafts that flew within, you know, bright bubbles of, of energy, wouldn't we have won it, use it to win World War II?
- [105:50]
A
Right. What about the Tic Tac stuff?
- [105:54]
B
There's, there's no, there's absolutely no one who, who has any credibility that would say that was man made.
- [106:02]
A
Really.
- [106:03]
B
Yeah, we, we, we a number of the people involved in. First off, Jay Stratton ran the investigation of the Tic Tac for the government. Like he actually wrote the actual, the actual official report on it. He's the one who actually went and investigated it and completely came to the conclusion that it was not man made. Like tried to assign it to some hidden program of ours and hoped that would be the case wanted to be able to explain it and couldn't. And that's the guy who would have had the job of knowing. So prior to investigating UAP and non human intelligent life for the government, he was the head of air and space warfare for the Defense Intelligence Agency. His literal job was to know what all of our black programs. Not our classified programs, our black programs, our unacknowledged special access programs, what they were building, what was on their roadmap for 20, 30 years out. 20, 30 years out in terms of air and space technology. It was literally his job. So like the analogy for him, you know, we talked about Hunt for October earlier. The analogy is like, remember Hunt for October? Alec Baldwin is an analyst at the CIA and his specialty is knowing everything about Russia's nuclear submarine program and, and everything about the leadership of that program. Like he is. That's his wheelhouse, right? Like he knows everything there is to know at a classified and on classified level about this one, one thing. So much so that in the movie when James Earl Jones, the head of the CIA gets a satellite photo of a submarine in Russia that he doesn't recognize and they wonder what it is, who do they go and ask? You know, they ask Baldwin. And he knows what it is. He knows who the commander is. He knows everything about him, went to school, his relationship with his wife, everything, right? People like that exist within the intelligence community that have these specific lanes that they know everything about at a classified level and a non classified level level. And Jay's. Jay was that guy for air and space technology. And that is why he ended up in this investigation of UAP and not human intelligent life. Because one day one of his colleagues walked into his office and said, hey, I got to show you something, and pulled him into a skiff and showed him a video that Air Force security guards had taken on a nuclear base of a triangle craft hovering above a nuclear weapon site and moving in ways that nothing does. And so they asked him, you know, please tell us this is one of ours. He had been read in on all the black programs developing advanced, you know, next gen technology for space and air. He was read in on those so that he could identify things that are ours versus things that are unknowns or potential threats. And it was clear to him that it wasn't. So that same guy ends up, you know, putting together OS app with Jim Le Caskey, which starts investigating this stuff, and then eventually that same guy runs the investigation of the Tic Tac and there's just no way we didn't we didn't have that technology. Right.
- [109:24]
A
I believe. I, I think I'm. I'm of the belief that it's multiple things going on. I'm sure it's. That we have no idea what it is. Some other civilization. I mean, I have no doubt. There's got to be. There has to be intelligent life.
- [109:37]
B
Go back, go back to Tic tac. If in 2004, if, if. Let's say that I saw the, you know, the conspiracy theory online. Somebody, somebody claimed that, that, that was Lockheed Martin technology. All right? If Lockheed Martin in 2004 had technology that could go from sea level to 80,000ft, which is what the Tic Tac did, that's when you get into space. 80,000ft. Right. If they had technology that could go from sea level to space in like the blink of an eye and then do that all afternoon, they would be the most valuable company on the planet right now, 20 years later. Yes, it is impossible to accept the idea that they cracked that technology if
- [110:20]
A
they were publicly public.
- [110:21]
B
They're not even in the top hundred market cap in the United States, much less the world.
- [110:26]
A
Right. I mean, I'm saying if that technology was public, they would be for sure.
- [110:30]
B
No, they would be. If, even if it wasn't, if they had that technology. I mean, think about this real simply. I've thought about this from every angle. If they had that technology in 2004, even if it was highly classified, that would give them so much leverage. They, they would have never lost a defense contract to any other defense contractor, but in reality, they did.
- [110:52]
A
Unless there was a handful of defense contractors who were close to it too, or doing the same stuff, it doesn't even matter.
- [111:00]
B
They would have so much leverage. There is no way they would not be a more valuable company. You'd be sitting on the biggest technological breakthrough in the history of humanity.
- [111:10]
A
Yeah, but how can you be more valuable when people aren't aware of what you have? If nobody with money or nobody knows what you really had, except for a very small group of people, where's the value?
- [111:20]
B
So in this conspiracy theory, the only way there would be any merit to it is if there was leadership in the government that, that knew this. Because if they didn't, if, if Lockheed had Tic TAC technology in 2004 and no one in the government knew it, why would they keep it classified? Doesn't make any sense. They would only keep it classified if they had to because there was government overseers that knew they had it. If, if there was no government overseers and they were the only. And they had actually cracked this technology in 04 and it was theirs. It wouldn't. They wouldn't. It wouldn't be classified. They would monetize it. They become the wealthiest company in the history of the world overnight.
- [111:57]
A
Yeah, I'm not sure about that though.
- [111:59]
B
100 dude.
- [112:00]
A
I'm not sure that they would want to monetize it. I'm sure there'd be more power in keeping it secret if they were developing something that was like how change. It would change the way that modern physics is known. And if it's been getting siloed and kept secret since the 50s or the 40s.
- [112:17]
B
First off, Lockheed Martin wasn't even around then. Like you know, they bought up smaller companies over the years. The companies, a lot of the companies that they bought were involved in the legacy program early on. I've been told old same with Northrop Grumman.
- [112:32]
A
Yeah, but let me put it to you this way.
- [112:35]
B
It's just not realistic.
- [112:36]
A
If I'm. If we're the American government, me and you run the American government. And we do have this technology, we do have this Tic Tac technology. Nobody knows about it except us. And we have all these adversarial nations around us as well. Do we want to tell them publicly that we do have this or do we want to put out this narrative that it's aliens and we don't know what it is?
- [112:55]
B
No, that's.
- [112:55]
A
But
- [112:58]
B
what I'm saying is follow that line of thought. If that was the case then. If that was the case and it led to in 2004 a private contractor on behalf of the government reverse engineer this technology and created something like the Tic Tac. If that was the case then that means government overseers somewhere know about it. Right. And so does Lockheed. In that dynamic. I personally believe Lockheed would have been able to leverage that dynamic to become a much bigger company by now. I do not believe you can have those set of. I just don't believe it sounds insane to me that you can have those circumstances and not be at least in the top 10 market cap. By the way, I own Lockheed Martin stock. It'd be amazing. It's a great company.
- [113:49]
A
Keep holding it.
- [113:50]
B
It's a great company. It's a great company. Funny, but I just don't believe that I. Look, I think they. And you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know who the biggest defense contractors are in the U.S. right. I think those are the companies that our military relies on and our government relies on to try to build the most advanced beyond next generation technology. And I think that they have been involved and utilized in, in the legacy program's efforts to reverse engineer this stuff, to understand it and reverse engineer it. But I do not think that they, that they made all this stuff from the beginning. I just, it just seems.
- [114:28]
A
Do you think they have any technology that's secret that nobody in the public knows about?
- [114:31]
B
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think they leverage.
- [114:33]
A
Just not this far.
- [114:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the, I think that there has been a lot of success reverse engineering this stuff in recent years. That's what I think. But I do not think that, you know, know, this was all these giant craft that military people see that, that fly past that. Right. That move underwater past our, our submarines.
- [114:55]
A
Right.
- [114:55]
B
That this is like, I'm with you, man, stuff we made.
- [114:58]
A
You know, I think it's a lot, I think, I think it's a, a mixture of, and especially if you. We have accounts of, of people seeing this stuff in like antiquity, you know, sailors on ships seeing these giant balls of light, size of football stadiums coming out of the water.
- [115:11]
B
Crazy.
- [115:12]
A
That wasn't Lockheed.
- [115:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, but don't get me wrong, I don't want to like confuse the listeners. It's. I do think that there are reverse engineered craft out there. I think China and Russia are neck and neck in a high stakes race and they're both making progress. Yeah, I think, you know, in the film, intelligence officials refer to it as the Manhattan Project on steroids. I think that's real. Hal Puthoff says on camera, he slides it into one of the interview pieces that I don't know if enough people picked up on this, but he says some of the UAP activity we see might actually be a result of our legacy program's work and some of it might be a result of China's program. So I think that there's a lot of these little nuggets that people might film or trying to share with the public to say things without overtly saying them. And I think that those set of circumstances exist. But the Tic Tac was a long time ago, man. It was a couple decades ago. And I do not think that we cracked that kind of technology back then. One of the scientists in the film, Eric Davis, he says the exact number, I'm not going to try to quote it because I don't remember exactly what he said, but he says he makes an analogy for the amount of energy that would have been required to go from sea level to 80,000ft.
- [116:33]
A
Oh yeah.
- [116:33]
B
Back for. And it was like, it was like something just completely.
- [116:37]
A
It was like, I just watched it. So it was like, I think it was like the entire energy output of the entire continental United States times 100 or something.
- [116:45]
B
Something like that.
- [116:46]
A
Yeah.
- [116:46]
B
We were just like, okay, obviously we don't, we, we didn't have the ability to harness that much energy to localize an area above the ocean 20 years ago, you know.
- [116:56]
A
Well, there was a lot of anti gravity research going on in the United States, specifically around the University of North Carolina, Chapel hill in the 50s. Lots of physicists were like on the cusp and, and doing extensive deep research on anti gravity and electrogravitic effects.
- [117:14]
B
Yeah.
- [117:14]
A
And these scientists went dark. Like just completely stopped doing their research and all the research went underground.
- [117:21]
B
Yeah.
- [117:21]
A
So if that stuff has started happening, it's getting siloed and, and hidden and underneath Black projects in the 50s. Who knows what they could have figured out by now. Certainly it's certain that they have exponentially expounded on that research since then.
- [117:36]
B
Yeah.
- [117:37]
A
And like if, even if you take like, you know, all the missing money in the U. S. Government where Rumsfeld said right before 9, 11 is there was like, like what, $4 trillion that had gone missing off the books.
- [117:50]
B
Yeah, I think at that time it was like 2 trillion something.
- [117:53]
A
And now it's, now it's a balloon to like 11 trillion or something.
- [117:56]
B
20.
- [117:56]
A
20 something trillion.
- [117:57]
B
I do think that we might find out down the line that a lot of that unaccounted money has gone towards.
- [118:03]
A
Yeah.
- [118:04]
B
This technology race and funding this effort.
- [118:08]
A
That's what grush was tracking, right?
- [118:09]
B
Yeah. And, and, and look, the other thing that's worth saying is, you know, we just, we just honed on, on U.S. defense contractors and did they have that? And my thesis is no. And if they did, they'd be a lot more valuable of companies right now. But that doesn't mean that there's not other private groups that don't have market caps that we aren't aware of that are heavily invested in our current technologies and have been involved in reverse engineering stuff and are motivated to keep it, keep it private. Yes, because they don't want their interests.
- [118:43]
A
They don't want to disrupt their other interests. Their other interests.
- [118:45]
B
There's total possibility for that. And numerous people I interviewed alluded to their coming to the conclusion that there is non government, non contractor money involved in this. And I never really got any details, not enough to be able to talk about. So maybe Maybe there's another whole hidden hand involved in this that we, that we don't know about yet. But, you know, you brought up earlier, we, before we took a break, we were talking about consciousness and remote viewing.
- [119:22]
A
Yeah.
- [119:22]
B
And one of the more interesting stories I want to circle back to, I met an intelligence official. Refer to as Scott, who was a high level intelligence official, mostly focused on counterterrorism, had a really high level career. And he ended up on a mission in the Middle east and came back and he had an illness. And long, very long story short, they identified a parasite in his brain and he had, he had brain surgery to try to relieve swelling and try to save his life. And while he was recuperating from this brain surgery, he had an experience that he couldn't explain where he felt like he had bilocated. Like he felt like while laying stationary, he went somewhere else. Like he saw it all in his mind's eye, like he felt like he was somewhere else. And at first he and his wife just simply thought he was losing his mind from the brain surgery. Like that he was, you know, it messed him up and he was just like hallucinating. But then it happened again and he started socializing this with some of his intelligence friends. And one of them said, what you're explaining is something called remote viewing. People are trained to do that, to use their mind's eye to go somewhere else. He had never even heard of remote viewing, so sends him down this rabbit hole. And that friend of his connected him with someone who used to work for the CIA, who knows a lot about this. And that person asked him if he had ever had a UAP encounter. He said he didn't think so. The former CIA official said, why don't you talk to your parents and ask them if anything happened when you were young. Scott's father had passed, so he talked to his mother. And his mother actually, without missing a beat, was like, yeah, I remember when you were a kid, it was like when he was like 6 or 7 or something like that, I really can't remember. It was under 10, saw a UFO and apparently it came out of a body of water, like a lake or a pond near their house. And he witnessed it very close. He ran home and he told his parents about it. The mother reminds him, starts jogging his memory, that the day after this event, a couple guys from Air Force Office of Special Investigation showed up to talked to him. And the mom apparently said, you know, leave my kid alone. He's his kid. But the dad took him in the backyard with these two Air Force guys. And, and they talked for a while and that was like the last the mom had heard of it. So she's like jogging Scott's memory. And then after that it sent him down a little bit of a rabbit hole investigating his past. And he, again, long story short, I'm really summarizing here, long story short, he found a collection of files that his father had and it was broken down by the years of his life, Scott's life. And yeah, so it's like Scott year seven, Scott year eight. And inside was his medical records and his education records. And then shockingly, he found enlistment paperwork in the US Air Force as a child. Child, which he had absolutely no memory of. Imagine seeing that. You're like, is this like a made
- [122:47]
A
up document state he was in?
- [122:50]
B
Yeah.
- [122:51]
A
Can you say it or.
- [122:52]
B
No, I probably shouldn't probably keep those details. So this, so this, this, this guy in, in real life, Scott is someone I was introduced to from someone in my film and he is writing a tell all memoir right now and Simon and Schuster is the publisher. And I don't know when it's going to be complete or when it's going to come out, but his full story is in this. And I've gotten to know him and his wife and his kids and spent a lot of time with them and it is just the most bombshell, singular story I've ever heard in my life. And not only did he find enlistment paperwork in the US Air Force, but he also found his discharge paperwork and the service code on there, when he looked it up was Space Communications Intelligence. And the base he was assigned to was the old Space Command base at that time. Yeah. And then he, you know, like any reasonable intelligent person would do, he kind of just went on a mission to like try to piece together his past and he started finding this massive cover up in those records was, was his excused absences from school for weeks at a time. He doesn't remember any of it. The school, when he contacted the school, the, the school's records were missing. There's all these other things about his past that as he started to look into it became clear he was a part of something as a kid after this UAP event. And then it was all covered up and something caused him to forget all this. Then the braid surgery brought all these memories back. And then just to skip to sort of like the end of this story when he started socializing this to some of his high level intelligence official friends, he found his life in jeopardy and There were a couple attempts to end his life, and fortunately that stopped. And now he's, you know, he's around to tell his story. But it's a remarkable story, and likely it'll lead to us all learning about a part of our past that's been hidden. And these biological. The UAP encounter he had, maybe. I guess there's two ways you could look at it. Maybe the encounter left him with this ability. Like, it gave him a biological effect that gave him this ability to somehow use his mind in a way that, you know, average people don't. Maybe it just, like, turned on something that's in all of us already. Maybe it sort of, like, heightened an ability that had been sort of, like, repressed or whatever, dormant. Those are kind of like, you know, the two. The two thoughts. Right. But either way, it seems that event led to him being recruited into a program that, that. That. That worked with young people, kids that. That had encounters. I mean, clearly it was a cause and effect. Saw uap, next day, the Air Force guy show up to talk to him about.
- [126:24]
A
Right. So, yeah, the same thing happened in Rendlesham, right?
- [126:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. After. After the. There was an event at Rendlesham. So Reynolds, for those that don't know, you know, Reynoldsam. When people say Reynoldsam, it's really referring to the Reynoldsham forest in the UK. There was a. There was a joint military UK base there in the 80s. It was called. I think it was called RAF Bentwaters, Steve, is that correct?
- [126:51]
A
That sounds right.
- [126:51]
B
RAF Bentwaters. I think that was the name of the base. It was a joint UK US base at the time. In the 80s, it had the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in Europe. Very specific set of circumstances, you know. And Woodbridge. RAF Woodbridge. Woodbridge, yeah. Okay. Raf, is it? RAF Woodbridge. A couple of them Bent water, and then Woodbridge is another one. Yeah, yeah.
- [127:16]
A
Which one had the UFO incident? Is your mic on, or can we hear you talking on the mics or. No,
- [127:24]
B
the events occur just outside of Woodbridge. Okay. UFO landings. So simply put. But there was a joint UK military base in this area of the English countryside. And at the time, they had this massive stockpile of nuclear weapons, and there was a UAP incident there where apparently multiple crafts came down from the sky one night and were hovering around the nuclear weapon sites, like right above, where nukes were hidden underground. And a number of the base security guards and the base commander went out and saw these things in the woods around the base. And some of them got very close to Them, one of them, one of these guards ended up having a lot of negative biological effects, heart issues and some other medical issues as a result of the contact with this. This technology, being close to it. And interestingly, also similar to the Scott story, the day after a mysterious unmarked plane landed on the base, according to the base commander, who I spoke to personally, and people that identify themselves as being a part of Air Force Office of Special Investigation and of the CIA talked to the witnesses, brought them into a private room, spoke to them, interrogated them, asked them a lot of questions. Years later, those witnesses told the base commander, many years later, told them that they were given some kind of serum. Now, whether that was to, like, erase memories or, like, whether it was a true serum, who knows? Yeah, but they all told this base commander that that's. That's what happened. And there's a number of people who have had encounters on bases who then were promptly put in a room with people from Air Force Office of Special Investigation, osi, it's called, and people from the CIA who basically just asked him a million questions and then ultimately told them never to talk about it. So, look, the Air force and the CIA's role in this is well, well documented. People have been talking about it for years. But the, the overlap with consciousness, remote viewing, and this is a really interesting intersection, you know, and if you. And if you accept the fact that remote viewing is real, as crazy as it sounds, if you accept that it's real, then why would you. Why would you stop? Why would you. Why would you draw a line there and be like, oh, that's where it stops? You can, you can remotely, you can, you can make your. Up. Your mind, your eyes, your. Excuse me, your mind's eye wander to a remote location, but you can't communicate remotely. It doesn't seem like that. It doesn't feel like a bridge too far for me.
- [130:19]
A
There definitely seems to be a huge connection between this whole UFO phenomena and the human mind and the human psyche. Yeah, it seems to be an integral part or a very important piece to this puzzle. Yeah, you know that with the. Combined with the fact that, like most UFO sightings happen with children, you know, and there's just an unbelievable amount of UFO sightings that children report. And there's a lot of schools.
- [130:52]
B
There's a lot. Oh, the aerials all around the world. The aerial school encounter, you know about this one? Yeah, that's one of the most fascinating. This is covered very well, for those who don't know it, in the documentary, the phenomenon which James Fox directed. I had the opportunity to be one of the producers on it. By all means, James gets all responsibility for making that movie. That was his baby.
- [131:17]
A
That was phenomenon, the aerial School one.
- [131:19]
B
Yeah. The phenomenon covered it at the very end.
- [131:21]
A
Okay.
- [131:21]
B
Yeah. And James did an amazing job of covering that story in a little section at the end of the film. That's where I first learned about it. And essentially what happened is, I believe it was like 1992 or 1994.
- [131:34]
A
Yeah.
- [131:36]
B
There was a school in South Africa.
- [131:40]
A
Yeah.
- [131:41]
B
In rural South Africa. Yeah. And it was a international school. It was young, young kids from, from actually a lot of European nations, people whose parents were working in South Africa for some reason. And so it wasn't, it wasn't like local, local South African kids. It was like an. It was distinctly an international school.
- [132:01]
A
Yep.
- [132:01]
B
And kids representing all, all parts of the world. And there was like one school day where there's 100 something kids out in the backyard playing. They ranged in age. I think it was like 6 to 12 or something like that. And they all came running back to the school screaming, saying that there was a UFO in the, in the field that had landed and beings telepathically communicating. And all these kids told the teachers the same thing. They all said, they described this craft landing. They described it being distorted around it like a blur. They describe these beings being near the craft and how they seem to move in weird ways, like, almost like a blur. And they describe them telepathically communicating with them. The message that these kids all got was that one, there's a clip of. There's a actual footage of one of these young girls.
- [133:00]
A
Yeah.
- [133:01]
B
Like six or seven saying in her, in her kid vocabulary, she says, they told us we mustn't get too technologed was the word she used. Right. And, and, and, and that if we did like the. The world could burn and there'd be all this destruction.
- [133:18]
A
Yeah.
- [133:18]
B
Right. So an adult watching that, you, you take away the conclusion. They're saying, you know, you know, be careful about how we're progressing technologically. And then it could lead to destruction. Right. It was like. It was like a warning. Right. And that was the main takeaway from the communication these kids claim to all. Not all, but many of them experience. All the kids described the same event, though. And then now looking through the lens of, you know, what people reveal in my film, in the age of disclosure about how the technology works, if a craft came down and it had a bubble around it, that. And beings got out of the craft, but they were still in the bubble. It would look like they're moving in slow motion like these kids describe, because they're different space, time, Right. They're behind the bubble. The distorted, you know, look and the light they saw would all, would all check out with how this tech, with how the people might say this technology works. And then where the story gets even wilder is there was a very, very grounded, credible, hardened wartime news correspondent who was the head of the BBC South Africa, who was stationed in South Africa and heard about this. I actually remember his name. It was, his name was Tim Leach.
- [134:35]
A
Yes.
- [134:35]
B
And. And he heard about this and he went to go investigate it. At first there's footage of him talking about it where he said, at first I thought these kids must be out of their mind, or it's a big elaborate lie. They all got together and said they were going to make up the story. So he goes and he investigates it. And he said after spending time talking to each of these young kids and interviewing them, he was just completely, he completely came to the conclusion that they were all telling the truth. Because kids just can't lie that good. Like little kids can't one on one tell all the same details as each other one after another. It wasn't like five kids or 10 kids, it was like over 100 kids. And so he came to believe them. But at the same time, as a hardened, as a serious journalist, he wanted to bring in some kind of expert to tell him if these kids were all expert liars or crazy. So he, he phoned the head of child psychiatry at Harvard at the time, who was like, apparently the leading expert on child psychiatry in the United States at the time. His name was John Mack. So he calls him, he tells him about this event and asks him to come out to South Africa and interview the kids and tell them his conclusion. So Mack flies out to South Africa and he interviews these kids one at a time time. He films the interviews and 100 takes away the fact that these kids are all telling the truth, that they all experienced what they're saying they experienced. And then years later, James Fox tracked down a bunch of these kids and he got them to do interviews for the phenomenon. And it's amazing. You see them talking as kids, intercut with them as adults, and they're saying the exact same thing. None of them have ever tried to monetize their story or become famous. If anything, they've just completely kept it to themselves. One of them says she's actually never told her husband about it. Like just didn't want to like be, you know, make them think she's crazy or whatever. And it's just this wild story and the fact that these, these interviews exist that you can watch of these little kids talking, it's super moving. And yeah, man, James Fox did an amazing job putting that piece of the film together.
- [136:50]
A
Yeah.
- [136:50]
B
And, you know, I was really grateful he, you know, he brought me on to that project as a producer towards the end of his process and I was able to play a role in helping him get the movie out there and, and the marketing of the movie and, and getting it out into the mainstream. But he did a hell of a job also.
- [137:07]
A
Moment of Contact was.
- [137:09]
B
Oh yeah, moment. That's a great movie. James. James is an awesome filmmaker and he's been ahead of the curve on this topic. You know, like he started making films on this before people.
- [137:19]
A
Yeah. Oh yeah. He's doing this for a long time.
- [137:23]
B
Yeah. His first movie, you know, he was called out of the Blue, was a good one. And then I, you know, second ones. I know what I saw, right?
- [137:31]
A
I think so.
- [137:31]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [137:32]
A
But the Moment of Contact was crazy because he was just interviewing random everyday people in this like, bum town in Brazil who saw this creepy looking creature.
- [137:43]
B
He did the, he did the deepest dive, I think actually died from it. Yeah.
- [137:49]
A
And then they all talk about these, like, all these like military people in Brazil are afraid to talk about it. They want to be anonymous, have their voices changed and all this stuff. There's one guy who wouldn't even talk, who threatened to shoot everybody who came on his property and like, like stories of Men in Black, US Air Force plane landing, carting this thing off and then leaving. Like. Yeah, that one is like, they're so, so much testimony, witness testimony that lines up so well. Even the, his new one has the, the surgeon of the hospital. Yeah, that one surgeon who like literally said he had a communication with this thing and he said like he was explaining how when he was like looking at this thing and it was communicating to him, it was just like it made him want to cry because he just felt like overwhelming love. Yeah. From this thing.
- [138:34]
B
Super, super powerful story. And James, James did the best deep dive ever on it. And I'll tell you, I have heard from some of my most trusted senior intelligence friends, intelligence community friends, including who we mentioned today, Jay Stratton, who co ran OS app and was director of the UAP task force. He and others have told me that they spoke to people from the Brazilian military, like very senior people who shared with them evidence of this Having happened. Medical reports. Yeah. Reports of the biological effects to civilians in that area. People that got zapped by this uap. In this event, this. This specific event. The. The Brazilian military did a massive investigation of it, and there's tons of evidence. They, you know, they. The people I've come to trust talk about it like an event that really, truly happened and. And is well documented. And maybe, you know, most likely the us. The elements of the US Government that have been covering this up, the folks involved in legacy program, you know, likely had. Had a role in covering it up and just. Just, you know. Sure. Making sure it never. Never made it to the public. You know, talking about James, James Fox and his filmmaking just, you know, makes me. It's another reminder, like, how important civilian journalism is. You know, like, we know about this stuff because, you know, some of us have made documentaries. You know, people like you and Joe Rogan are, you know, talking about it on podcasts. Like, yeah, in the past, there wasn't enough people bringing attention to it. And because legacy media didn't bring any attention to it and is largely controlled, people just didn't find out, you know, So I think it's. It's a. It's. It's an exciting time for civilian journalism and documentaries and podcasts, because you can do these. You can do these deep dives and you can put out an independent film or you can put out an independent podcast, and people. People will see it and learn about it, and it's also leading to more to come out, you know, like. Like, because James made that doc like he's going doctor came out of the shadows and decided he would. He would. He would share his story.
- [140:55]
A
Yeah.
- [140:55]
B
So it's like bringing attention to the stuff actually leads to more coming out,
- [141:00]
A
you know, and at the same time, there's also, like, that's. That's like, ballsy of him to do that, to do that investigation, to put that out there. And not just ballsy of him, but it's like, it. It's a huge leap to go from government UFOs recorded on the radar of military fighter jets and unknown objects documented by the military to go all the way to. I communicated with a alien in a hospital telepathically. Like, that's. We've already. We've already gone past the UFO bridge. Like, everyone can accept that UFOs are real. It's pretty much in like. Like the zeitgeist now in common in. In America at least. But, like, I feel like it's gonna take a lot more to get People to the, okay, we're telepathically communicating with these beings that are coming here and there. It's some other entity, not human, that is really technologically advanced. And like, yeah, even alien abductions, like, did any of the people that you talked to go that far to talk about like, talk about the actual beings?
- [142:07]
B
People. People. Did.
- [142:08]
A
People.
- [142:09]
B
I chose to leave it out of the film because I just felt like for the average person who hasn't spent any time learning about this, it's just a bridge too far.
- [142:20]
A
Yeah, it's just hard for them to
- [142:21]
B
wrap their head around.
- [142:22]
A
It's hard to. It's a jagged pill to swallow.
- [142:23]
B
And I think it, I think it will. It makes a lot of people discount the other stuff. And so I think my, my ultimately, obviously you saw the film, ultimately where I came out on it was to have the film cover the base facts of the high level situation and not get into that. Which would be sort of like the next bridge for the audience to get.
- [142:50]
A
Right, right, right.
- [142:51]
B
That could be in a follow up film, it could be in a spin off, could be in something else. I do, but there's just already. So the base facts are already. Is already so extraordinary, you know, and such a departure from people's everyday life that I felt that was enough, you know.
- [143:11]
A
Yeah.
- [143:12]
B
And I actually had, in one cut of the movie, I did have a little like three or four minute scene that touched on. It wasn't abductions, but touched on the personal experiences some of the US government officials had at their homes after investigating this. So one of the wild things I learned was that as people involved in investigating this for the government looked into non human intelligent life, it seems non human intelligent life started looking into them. The analogy that they used to wrap their head around what was happening is they would say, look, if Russia sends a spy to D.C. to spy on members of our Congress, our intelligence community spies on the Russian spy. Like we look into them because they're looking into us. And so these intelligence officials just sort of like applied that logic to what was happening to them. They started looking into non human intelligent life and UAP for the government. And all of a sudden they were having activity at their houses, orbs in their homes, in front of their wives, in some cases, crafts like straight up UFOs within eyesight of their homes. That's covered in a lot of my interviews. And I ended up putting it into like a three or four minute scene in an early cut of the movie. And when I did test screenings, small test screenings with trusted Friends. Time and time again at the end, when I would say, I would ask general questions like, you know, did it change your perspective on all this? You know, the ideas you had going into watching the movie, are they the same after watching the movie? Those kind of just headline questions? And I always would say, was there anything that you found hard to accept and believe to be true? And every single time it was that sequence, it was that sequence in the film that people had problems with and it was through. There was just something about it that was a bridge too far. And I would even ask, you know, ask the obvious follow up questions. You know, I'd say, well, the person telling that story, didn't. Didn't the previous part of the film establish their credibility? And they'd say, yeah, yeah, it did for sure, 100%. And I'd be like, then why do you find it hard to believe what they're saying in this scene? And it was just something about these people sharing their own personal experience that happened in their own home, that becomes a bridge too far for people. Whereas that same intelligence official saying what they learned when investigating and what they uncovered is totally digestible to the audience. So I just decided to take that scene out. Yeah, there's a long story short.
- [146:09]
A
Yeah, the normies aren't ready.
- [146:11]
B
Exactly. And I don't know what that is. I don't know what part of like human psychology makes that like a bridge too far for people. One of the interesting things in the film is Rubio and Clapper. We talked about two guys we talked about today. They both say in the film, they talk about how it's difficult for people to wrap their head around something they haven't personally experienced or to, or prepare themselves for. Something I've experienced, it's something in the human psyche that does that and that's actually something that they're concerned about. They're concerned that collectively we as a nation won't properly prepare for what's happening right now and put the right brain power towards it because we haven't experienced it yet. And Rubio makes points about there being several examples of that blowing up in our face. Like we, we never imagined terrorists would fly, you know, come to the, the homeland and learn to fly commercial airplanes and use it against us in a terrorist attack until they did. And we never, you know, imagined the Japanese would be able to, you know, strike us at Pearl harbor with their missiles and get their missiles through the straits. But until they did. And so there's history's full of these examples of, of, of Us not preparing for or wrapping our head around things we haven't experienced yet. And then sometimes that leads to a strategic surprise that, as he says in the film, could change the course of human history. And so there's this. It is interesting, and I found it really informative when I was doing these test screenings of earlier cuts where that bridge is for people, where it just goes a bridge too far.
- [147:41]
A
Yeah, that's interesting.
- [147:42]
B
But I did certainly hear a lot of incredible stories. And from where I was sitting, it's the guy doing all the interviews. There was so much overlap. It was like, tell me what you
- [147:52]
A
heard about the aliens.
- [147:53]
B
So, talked to several people who worked on nuclear weapons bases who had seen a UAP on the base, like, been part of an event that multiple people witnessed with them, and then in the coming days, had subsequent events when they were off the base where they encountered UAP and then non human beings.
- [148:19]
A
Oh, they encountered beings at their homes.
- [148:21]
B
Yeah. Or not necessarily those cases. The new weapon stories were actually not homes. It happened in various.
- [148:27]
A
Not at work.
- [148:28]
B
Yeah, not at work. One. One story that did happen on the. On a base, though. And I didn't. I didn't include this in the film, but I did. I have it. Maybe I'll. Maybe I'll release it one day.
- [148:40]
A
Director's cut.
- [148:41]
B
Or like, maybe. You know, I've been thinking about. Not. Not to digress, but I've been thinking about maybe doing a dvd, Blu Ray with special features on it.
- [148:51]
A
I like it.
- [148:53]
B
Deleted scenes. When I was a kid, I used to love buying DVDs that had deleted scenes.
- [148:57]
A
Keep it off the Internet. Just make it a dvd.
- [148:59]
B
Yes. Put on dvd. People can have it, collect. Hold on to it. You know, That's a great idea. I still collect DVDs personally.
- [149:05]
A
Do you?
- [149:05]
B
I. I like physical media. Yeah, I have. I have a few draws of DVDs in alphabetical order, like. Like a lunatic.
- [149:13]
A
That's awesome.
- [149:15]
B
But, yeah, I think I might do that one day. But. So one of these interviews I did was. It was a. Was an Air Force security guard on a nuclear weapons base had a. Had an encounter where him and his partner saw a UAP over a nuclear weapon site. And then what happened after that was he said that a bright light came from the UAP and hit this vehicle that him and his partner were in. And they basically became like, you know, catatonic, like frozen. They couldn't move. And he said out of the corner of his eye, he saw three non human beings approaching the car. And he said he was terrified. And his heart started to race, and he thought he was gonna have a freaking heart attack. He thought his heart was gonna, like, leap out of his chest. And then he just blacked out. And when he woke up, his vehicle was no longer where it was in front of the. The. The nuke site. He was now at the bottom of a reservoir that was on the backside of the base that you couldn't physically drive down to. The truck was just there. It had been relocated. And he came to, and his partner was still basically catatonic, in shock, couldn't move. He was, like, gripping the steering wheel, he said. And over the base, over the radio, he heard, like, his colleagues looking for him still. And he looked at his watch, and hours had passed. And he called in, saying. Saying where they were. And, you know, as crazy as it was, he's like, this is where we are. And apparently they came and got them. And then when they brought him back to the base, apparently they were separated. And Air Force Office of Special Investigation and CIA were there and essentially interrogated them both, asked them a million questions. They sent them both to the hospital after they checked them for radiation damage, they checked their gums and other. Other medical tests you would do if someone was near something that. That gave off a lot of energy that you knew would cause biological effects, you know, and then they were told never to talk to each other again. And the partner was shipped out to another country very quickly soon after that.
- [151:37]
A
Whoa.
- [151:37]
B
Yeah. And what's wild about that is I interviewed other people who didn't. No, another person who didn't know this guy, and he had a very similar story that went down on a different base in a different decade. And then the aftermath was, like, almost exactly the same. Him and his. He. That guy was in another vehicle. He had a partner. They were separated, told never to talk to each other again. Same Air Force Office of Special Investigation at CIA asking the questions. And then one of them was shipped to a base on. In Japan. This is all this. Both these stories we're saying is, you know, before the Internet, before email and, you know, social media and all that. So, like, you. You know, by telling someone, don't talk to each other, and then sending them to, you know, sending one of them to another country, you're really, like, cutting down on communication and people socializing it and have a better chance of it just like, kind of like going away, you know.
- [152:38]
A
Did you film those?
- [152:39]
B
Yeah, I filmed all those testimonies. Yeah, I filmed those, and they're really chilling. And each time, each of Those interviews, you can really feel when they're, like, going back in their mind to these memories. You could feel how much it, like, stresses them out. Like, it's, like, dramatic. One guy, when he's telling the story, actually, I. He. I noticed his, like. Like, knee was like. Like, shaking and like. Like, you know, when you're thinking about something really dramatic, and it was just, like, going so fast that I. I actually stopped the interview, and I was like, hey, man, you want to. You want to take a. You need to take a break, you know?
- [153:14]
A
How much detail did he give you on, like, what the beings looked like?
- [153:18]
B
He said one was a really tall, humanoid being, and then there was other shorter, smaller beings that looked different with him, and he said that one looked more human. Tall, very tall, he said humanoid. And then smaller ones that did not look the same, and.
- [153:37]
A
Whoa.
- [153:38]
B
And he said that the tall one he could see in the corner's eye had what looked like, like a cattle prod, like, a device in its hand that was like a. Like a pole. And he said the only reference point he had was talked about that. I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah. There's all this overlap in these stories, and, you know, a lot of them. A lot of them happened in. In different. They happened in different years, and, like, the circumstances. There's also, like, a lot of. There's a lot of. Like, you gotta. I. I personally think there's a difference between. Trav. The difference between Travis Walton and these guys, to me, is these guys were trusted enough to work on nuclear weapons bases. They were placed in positions of authority.
- [154:33]
A
Yes.
- [154:33]
B
As security forces. On a nuclear weapons base.
- [154:36]
A
They have to be also during the Cold War, they have to be proven psychologically sound.
- [154:41]
B
Yeah.
- [154:41]
A
To be in charge of those places.
- [154:43]
B
And I think, like, if we put ourselves in the context of history, like, during the Cold War, there would have. There would have been even more thoughtfulness put towards who gets those jobs, you know, and so, yeah, it really made an impact on me. I just felt for this film, you know, it was a bridge too far, and we could get to that point next. You know, I think I. I was really trying to make a movie that was not just for people who are already completely immersed in this topic and interested in it. You know, I wanted to make it for the Everyman so that the average person could understand this is a real and serious situation. And I do feel like that mission was accomplished, especially in how it led to this directive from Trump. I feel like the average person seeing 34 really credible military, government, intelligence Officials and people like Rubio and Cinna Rounds and Gillibrand and White House National Security Council members alongside generals and admirals. I do think it just makes an, like, a massive impact on people. The average person, you know, when I think about, like, my folks in Jersey in their mid-70s, like, who've never watched any documentary on this topic, you know, then they watch this and like all of a sudden like, whoa, this is real. Yeah. You know, you think about those normal people, the normies. As you said, that's who I was making the movie for. And I think now that the average person is aware that this is real, I think we can get to those other, you know, content, whether it's documentaries or whether it's scripted movies or whether it's, whether it's just, you know, news program specials.
- [156:15]
A
Yeah. I'm sure there's so many more branches and so many more story lines that you could have followed and you can make, you know, movies about all of those.
- [156:21]
B
Individually, I'd like to. I really, I, I enjoyed making the film and I enjoyed the process of like making, making an impact. I do think the problem with it
- [156:29]
A
is, like, when you're doing that kind of thing and I'm. I've done it before, it's like, there's so much good. You got to delete.
- [156:35]
B
Oh, yeah. This was the hardest creative process of my entire life as a producer. I've built from the ground up a bunch of movies and TV shows, including Ready Player One. I developed that from the very beginning when it was. We just had the book to start with, the book by Ernest Klein. And developing movies and TV shows is hard. It's a process. It's a hard creative process. But this was the hardest creative process because, you know, there was, there was a, There could have been a four and a half, five hour version of this movie. Right. That 10 people would have watched because it would have been too long, you know. But more than 10 people would have watched it. Yeah, more than 10, more than 10 people to watch it. But, you know, there's a huge population that will not watch a movie if it's over two hours. Yeah. You know, or they'll doze off or they'll watch it, done it in like
- [157:27]
A
three parts or something, then it's a series.
- [157:28]
B
And series. I, I don't think series have the same cultural impact as movies.
- [157:32]
A
Right.
- [157:32]
B
They just don't.
- [157:33]
A
I agree.
- [157:33]
B
They don't have the same staying power. They're not as evergreen. Right. And you know, a standalone movie, it's a lot to ask someone to watch a whole series. If you ask your friends, honestly, how many series they start and don't finish, it's. Yeah, it's gonna be.
- [157:47]
A
And then you're gonna do the whole thing with the cliffhangers to get him into the next episode and all that.
- [157:51]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I had the thought, of course, but then I was just like, no, that's just not gonna make the same impact. But a movie, you know? Yeah. Someone tells you someone. You know, I see it all the time. People say, my friend told me to watch the Disclosure and, like, you know, I went home and I watched it that night. Like, you could do that. You can. You can accomplish that mission in under two hours. You can watch this movie. You can completely learn the lay of the land. You can now be able to talk about it. You can now know what's real, what's not real. Yeah, you can't do that with a series. No one's going to.
- [158:16]
A
When you did Ready Player One, how much interaction did you have with Spielberg?
- [158:19]
B
A lot. Yeah. I mean, first off, like I said, I think he's the greatest director of all time. No one. No one inspired me more not only to become interested in this topic because of movies like ET And Close Encounters, but also to get into filmmaking. I remember when I was a kid and I became obsessed with. With ET And Close Encounters. I remember reading about how he made a short films as a kid in, like, middle school and high school.
- [158:51]
A
Yeah.
- [158:51]
B
On 16 millimeter film and 8 millimeter film. And he used him and his. You know, he did, like. He wore a bunch of hats. He would, like, edit them and direct them and improve some. And then his friends would be in them, his family members would be in them. And so I was inspired to do the same thing. So, like, I didn't. I didn't have any. We didn't have a lot of money growing up. You know, normal, like, you know, middle class in Jersey. And so I saved up shoveling snow in the winter and, you know, mowing lawns in the summer to buy a camera, Super 8 camera and a 16 millimeter camera and to buy film and a little splicing machine, a little editing. Splicing machine. Like before digital editing, you literally had to, like, cut the film, Right?
- [159:37]
A
Yeah.
- [159:37]
B
And so I wrote, directed, produced, and edited these little short films that my neighborhood buddies would. Would. Would star in. One of my best friends shout out to Phil Desjardin and Dan Gomez. Yeah. They. My buddies growing up would. Would play these roles. I would give them.
- [159:58]
A
Yeah.
- [159:59]
B
A few times I convinced like, local police department guys to participate and we would do. I remember one. This is actually hilarious. There's this one short film I made where two buddies of mine, Phil and Dan, they. They rob a 7 11. And it's like in the movie, in this little short, and it's just like a. It's like a heist, little three minute heist. Right. And I wanted a police car chase. So at the time I was working at the, the local pizzeria, working the counters, like things like probably freshman year in high school.
- [160:32]
A
Yeah.
- [160:32]
B
The cops came in and they'd always eat really cheap. The rule was the owner would let us charge cops 10 bucks no matter what they eat. They could get $30 worth of food, 10 bucks. And so they liked us. And I remember I asked Officer Tim Durkin, shout out to Officer Tim Durkin. I remember asking him, I said, hey, will you participate in this police chase in my short film? And the guy did it. He did it. And I sped up the film. You can speed up film, right? So he was going fast, but I made him look like he was going really fast. And he's peeling around corners in our little suburban Jersey neighborhood. That's absolutely hilarious. And he got really into with this great camera movement at the end where like, at the end, like, when the, when the two thieves get away, he like slams on his brake, hops out of his car and like, the camera like moves around the door, like. And he just looks like a badass. And he loved it and he had a great time. And when I go home for the holidays to my little Jersey tower, I often bump into him at the local bar and he always brings it up. He's like, man, that was awesome. So I had all these. I, like, I tried to add like, production value to all the things I did as a kid. I was making these short films.
- [161:36]
A
Yeah.
- [161:37]
B
And try to make it, you know, I kept viewing each one as a challenge. Like, I would get a police car chase or I'd get like the local EMTs, the ambulances to like, you know, show up in a scene and like. But I was very inspired by Spielberg to do all that, like, reading about him. The fact that he did that as a kid is what made me want to do it as a kid. Yeah. And yeah, I made like a. I probably made like a dozen short Films on Super 8 and 16 throughout middle school and high school. And it really cemented, you know, my, my desire to get into the movie business and make it a career, you know, and then so years later, when we developed Ready Player One, so the way that started is Ernie Klein wrote the book. Amazing book. He's an amazing author. And I started collaborating with him and I set it up as a producer. I set it up at Warner Brothers, got them on board to fund the development of it and pay for the adaptations to be written. And that process started in 2010, a year before the book came out. And then the book came out and became this big sensation, instant bestseller. And we continued developing the screenplay, and then it got to the point in spring of 2015, we had a draft that we all loved and the studio loved and we needed a director. And we. We brought it to Spielberg and he loved the script and they read the book and loved the book. And I remember learning at the time that his wife had coincidentally just listened to the audiobook on her morning walks. And so she had been talking about it, coincidentally. And then we offered it to him and it was kind of like, yeah, he was hearing from multiple people how wonderful the book was. And. Yeah. And then so he came on board spring of 15, and everything got fast tracked. We started pre Production, end of 15. We shot in 16 in the UK in the English countryside. Warner has a studio called Leavesden, and it's about an hour, hour and a half out of. Out of London. And we shot there in 2016. And then it was in post production throughout all of 2017. And then it came out March of 2018, and we premiered it at the south by Southwest Film Festival opening weekend, Sunday afternoon of 2018. And that's relevant because a really cool thing for me was when my movie the Age of Disclosure was done, we also premiered it in the exact same slot Sunday afternoon, opening weekend of south by Southwest Femme Festival. And we premiered in the same theater, the Paramount Theater in Austin, the historic Paramount Theater. It's like an 1100 seat theater. And it was pretty surreal for me, being on stage, introducing the movie while I have this memory of sitting in the audience watching Spielberg introduce Ready Player One in the same place in 2000.
- [164:26]
A
That's pretty incredible, dude.
- [164:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. What's even weirder? Like kind of a glitch in the Matrix. It was south by Southwest Film Festival 2006 that I met Ernest Klein, who wrote Ready Player One. So this all kind of happened within a couple blocks of each other, which is kind of weird.
- [164:44]
A
That's wild.
- [164:45]
B
Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. But no, Spielberg's had a huge influence on me. And, you know, have you ever talked
- [164:50]
A
to him about this whole topic, this
- [164:52]
B
alien UFO just a little bit on. On set making the movie. Yeah. You know, he.
- [164:56]
A
He's got a new movie coming out.
- [164:58]
B
Yeah, he's got. He's got. He's got disclosure date coming out in June, and I think it's gonna make a huge impact. I think the one. It's like a one, two punch. I think, like, this documentary makes people realize how real this is and how serious it is. And then you get like a big popcorn movie from like the greatest filmmaker ever that, you know, shows a grounded story dealing with this. I think the combined impact of that is going to really open people's minds. I mean, if me watching Close Encounters as a kid and ET As a kid led to me having this lifelong interest in eventually making this documentary. Right. What is the combined impact of my doc and his film gonna do for someone else, you know? Right. Or for other people or for the collective, you know? Yeah. So I think, I think movies, man, make a bigger impact on culture than anything else.
- [165:45]
A
Totally.
- [165:45]
B
I really believe that. And I think you get, especially in this day and age where everyone's so add and looking at a million things on their social media scrolls, like movies are. Those is like, you know, in rare air in that, like, you get someone's focus for like an hour and a half to two hours. That's what they're focused on, you know, and it makes an emotional impact on them. Yeah, they learn something from it. They take something away from it. It makes them think about things they hadn't thought about. Yeah, it's. It's a powerful. It's a powerful force a movie, I think. And so especially when you, like, really
- [166:20]
A
have to invest in. In it, you know, like when you had to get in the car, drive there, go sit down, you know, buy your popcorn, buy your soda, sit down, put your phone away, make sure your phone's on silent. You know, like, the fact that we don't do that anymore is kind of sad because that's like you were. You're so locked in when you're. When you're there and you're. You're that invested in it, you've committed that much time to doing it, and now it's just like, oh, we watch half of them on our phone, half them on our laptop at night. We split it into multiple days. Days, because we don't have time.
- [166:48]
B
Yeah.
- [166:49]
A
And, man, I don't know where that goes, but.
- [166:54]
B
Yeah, no, it's those days. I do too. I do too. The but making that movie. Making Ready Player one. I gotta say, you know, For a guy who's the most successful person in the history of Hollywood. Right? Yeah, he was very sweet and he was very cool. You know, I was, you know. Know, I'm a young producer now, as a younger producer then, and he was still super cool and welcoming. And, you know, when a. When a. When a. When a big director's making a big movie, like, it's their set, right? It's their set and they've got a job to do. And, like, you know, anyone else there, like, they have to be cool with and they have to be welcoming and they have to be okay with it. Right. And he was always cool about that.
- [167:38]
A
Does he shoot?
- [167:39]
B
Shoot? What do you mean?
- [167:41]
A
Like, is he a shooter, Director, Cinematographer?
- [167:43]
B
No, no, no, no. He has. He has Go to cinematographers.
- [167:46]
A
Okay.
- [167:46]
B
One of the.
- [167:47]
A
Some directors like to use the cameras.
- [167:49]
B
The one he uses the most is Yamish Kaminsky, who shot our movie. Amazing photographer, also a great guy. And it was. It was. It was an. I mean, put yourself in my shoes, man. I mean, literally, my favorite filmmaker since I was a kid, and the biggest influence on me, and I'm getting to be on set with him making a movie that I developed. Right. The script I developed.
- [168:12]
A
That's pretty.
- [168:12]
B
That's pretty incredible. I thought I was like. It felt like a kid in a candy store. But he was very cool. And I remember actually one day early on in making that movie, myself and Ernie Klein were in. In the lunch line with the crew, just filling up a plate of food. We're pretty far down the line. I'd filled a full plate of food, and Steven's assistant came up behind us and was like, hey, guys, I don't want to interrupt you, but, you know, no pressure. I remember saying, no pressure, but Stephen's having lunch by himself right now and want to know if you guys wanted to join. But no pressure. We both, like, instantly just dropped our plates. We're like, let's go, let's go.
- [168:56]
A
We don't need lunch.
- [168:57]
B
We don't need lunch.
- [168:58]
A
Touch?
- [168:58]
B
And then. And then, like, that was a great memory. He. I remember he. He was telling us, like, he's just like, you know, he was the coolest version of himself. We, We. He was telling us stories about Jurassic park and Jaws and that's amazing. We were just sitting there with, like, our. With our jaws on the floor. Wow. Remember literally walking away from that lunch and being like, I cannot believe that that just happened, you know?
- [169:19]
A
That's wild.
- [169:20]
B
Yeah.
- [169:20]
A
Fun fact. I was a production assistant or a camera production Assistant on a movie with a cinematographer who did Independence Day, The DP of Independence Day.
- [169:29]
B
It's amazing.
- [169:30]
A
That's the closest I've ever gotten anything cool like that.
- [169:33]
B
I love that movie, man. And now. Now. Now I look back at that movie differently. You know, there's that great scene where Bill Pullman, who plays the president.
- [169:41]
A
Yeah.
- [169:41]
B
He says some line basically. Essentially saying, someone brings up the idea that, like, our government has a secret UFO alien program. And he says some line like, you know, that's all. That's all conspiracy. That's all bullshit. And then the guy who plays the head of the CIA, an actor named James Redbourne, who's passed away. He actually lived in my hometown. He played the head of the CIA, and he. He has that famous line from the movie where he goes. He's like, well, sir, that's not exactly true. And then, boom, they're at Area 51.
- [170:13]
A
Pull them up. I want to see who that was. Like, I'm not. It's not ringing a bell right now.
- [170:16]
B
So James Redbourn's the tall guy, white hair. He was in the talented Mr. Ripley. He's in a lot of movies. He was in the game. Remember the game? Michael Douglas. Oh, that's an amazing movie, by the way. The game.
- [170:28]
A
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay.
- [170:30]
B
Yeah. Really great.
- [170:31]
A
Oh, dude. Yeah, he was great.
- [170:32]
B
He played it. You never saw the game with Michael Douglas.
- [170:35]
A
It's been a long time. I have seen it. I have.
- [170:37]
B
That movie is bonkers. He. Yeah, he played the.
- [170:41]
A
The guy. Yeah, I remember that.
- [170:42]
B
Fake boss.
- [170:43]
A
I remember that now.
- [170:44]
B
But he remember him being like, Mr. President. That's not exactly true.
- [170:47]
A
That's not exactly true.
- [170:48]
B
Yeah, it's so good. Good.
- [170:50]
A
Yeah, dude, I remember that.
- [170:51]
B
I remember watching that moment and being like, this is so awesome. And then. And then next, you know, they're at Area 51, and then Judd Hirsch, who plays. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But do you remember, like, the bit at Area 51 where they're like. They're like, who pays for all this stuff? When they show the hangar with the UFO and stuff, they're like. They're like, who funds all this stuff? And then someone's like, you really think a toilet seat costs $5,000? You know, like, so basically, like. Basically saying that, like, there's all these.
- [171:19]
A
About that.
- [171:19]
B
Basically saying there's all these line items in DoD's budget that actually go towards something else. That's like. That's what they were saying. It was like the move the popcorn movie way of saying, like,
- [171:32]
A
wow, they're just hiding it all in movies. I gotta go back and watch that movie.
- [171:35]
B
It's a really good movie, man.
- [171:36]
A
It really is. But like, going back, like after, like everything we know now and going back and watching some that is like, can be eye opening.
- [171:44]
B
Yeah, totally. That's why I said about the, the out of the abyss.
- [171:48]
A
Yeah.
- [171:48]
B
You know, go back and watch.
- [171:50]
A
Oh yeah.
- [171:50]
B
James Cameron's Abyss, you know, and then he went down this whole, you know, the Avatar movies and.
- [171:56]
A
Yeah.
- [171:57]
B
Dealing with life from elsewhere and, you know, I think he was ahead of his time for sure.
- [172:02]
A
There was a story.
- [172:03]
B
Was ahead of his time.
- [172:04]
A
There was a story. Speaking of the abyss, there was a story that you. That you left out. I heard. Heard about some guy recovering a vehicle out of the ocean or something.
- [172:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the people I talked to who wouldn't go on camera, he was a special forces guy who had been in. Involved in a UAP event. And it's a long story, but the, the summary is when we, when we test missiles, there's a couple ways we test missiles. So it's not generally speaking, but one of the ways we test missiles, we shoot them out into the ocean. They drop into the ocean. They go far distance and they drop into the ocean. And then we send special forces teams to go recover them. Usually like Navy seals, they'll just go recover the missile. They put it on some kind of like a recovery system and they, they bring it up into a chopper, take it back, and then they pull all the data from it. It for their test, like, you know, how it performed. So that's just like a thing we do. And so one of these tests happened and the recovery was happening, and this, this guy was in the water with a couple of his colleagues, and they had like a, you know, I don't know what the correct word is.
- [173:14]
A
They tell you what, ocean.
- [173:15]
B
No, I don't know if it was a chain or a pulley system, but whatever they had, they had this, this system for connecting the missile. And there was a helicopter floating above them. There's a few of these guys in the water doing this. And then apparently a giant UAP came out of the ocean. Like classic saucer ufo. And it was just there. They look up, they're freaking out. People in the chopper are freaking out. And apparently this thing just took the missile somehow. Like they described it as like a magnet, almost like it just took it.
- [173:49]
A
Whoa.
- [173:50]
B
Yeah. And then it took off.
- [173:52]
A
And these guys were just swimming in the water.
- [173:54]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah.
- [173:59]
A
That's terrifying.
- [174:00]
B
It's crazy. It's crazy. But it was a really credible guy. And he wouldn't. He wouldn't go on camera. He wouldn't do it. Went to an interview. He was. I thought he was going to at one point, but decided couldn't do it. But apparently that kind of thing has happened before. It's not like an isolated incident. The ocean stuff is definitely, definitely fascinating. You know, it is.
- [174:25]
A
It really is, man.
- [174:26]
B
We might find out there's a whole civilization under the ocean.
- [174:28]
A
Totally, Totally, man. I had this NASA guy on about a year ago, Kevin Knuth. He is a former NASA contractor, and he was explaining to me. He, he. It made so much sense when he explained this to me. He says, if you're a interplanetary civilization and you want to jump between planet to planet, it. He goes, it's not a good idea to stay in the atmospheres because the atmospheres are. The atmospheres are so volatile from planet to planet. Like, the atmosphere of Venus is like 900 degrees Fahrenheit on, like, a cold day. So, like, it's like hell. Right? And, yeah, not only that, but, like, the pressure is different that the, the. There's volcanoes, asteroids, comets, all kinds of. You can't predict in the atmosphere. But if you can find a planet with liquid water, liquid water can only exist between 33 degrees and like 200 degrees Fahrenheit. And the pressure, if you want to get the pressure right, you just dial it down to the depth you're going to get this. You're going to get the right pressure depending on the depth that you're at, the atmospheres that you're at. So you would just go to water worlds because you can get the exact temperature and pressure.
- [175:31]
B
And if you had the ability to warp space time in a localized area, create like a bubble around your craft, that's the key to interstellar travel. Right. You could explore, you know, our galaxy, other galaxies. Right. And you could find these. These places. Right?
- [175:45]
A
Totally.
- [175:45]
B
Well, this is definitely the. The key to interstellar travel, which is wild.
- [175:48]
A
Yeah.
- [175:48]
B
Wait, but by the way, the other thing just made me think of. Yeah, we were talking about Spielberg. He was so ahead of his time with this topic. Right. Like, he clearly had some insight in the 70s when he made Close Encounters and. And when he made et cetera. But he also. People forget he also wrote Poltergeist. Poltergeist, the movie about.
- [176:11]
A
I didn't know he wrote that.
- [176:12]
B
Yeah, about paranormal activity and a family dealing with it at home. And he was very Ahead of his time. Go back and watch rewatch Poltergeist.
- [176:21]
A
That guy some truth serum.
- [176:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, he's, he's tackled some really interesting topics for sure. And I'm pumped for Disclosure Day. I will definitely be watching that movie in the theater opening weekend. Yeah, 100%, bro. Yeah, I think he, I think he had, I think he had real consultants in the same way that, you know, before I made the age disclosure, I formed relationships with high level intelligence officials who really kind of like helped me understand the lay of the land and how serious it is and how real it is and. Right. You know, my understanding is he, he also had insights. You know, Jacques Vallee was, is, was one of the consultants on the movie. That's the French scientist character. And Close Encounters is based on Jacques Valle. And Jock had worked with Project Blue Book. And you know, I believe, I believe Spielberg's talked publicly about how Alan Hynek, who was the lead investigator of Project Blue Book, was one of his consultants. So, yeah, he had, he had people informing him. There's also that great story. I can't remember who shared this, but there's a great story about Spielberg doing a screening of ET at the White House for Reagan. And on the way out, Reagan commenting on how there's just a few people who know how close to true the ET Story is or how much truth there is or some line like that. I believe he, Spielberg might have told this story.
- [177:49]
A
Really?
- [177:49]
B
We gotta look it up. We gotta find it online, but no way. It's a great story.
- [177:53]
A
Look that up.
- [177:54]
B
Up.
- [177:54]
A
Reagan.
- [177:55]
B
Let's do Reagan, Spielberg, ET Screening.
- [177:56]
A
Reagan, Spielberg, ET Screening. Story.
- [178:01]
B
Yeah.
- [178:01]
A
See what comes up with that.
- [178:03]
B
Yeah, I, I can't remember where.
- [178:04]
A
I haven't, I've never heard that.
- [178:06]
B
Yeah.
- [178:07]
A
Who was the President that was super obsessed with UFOs?
- [178:10]
B
Well, there was a lot. Ford was into it, Carter was into it, Reagan was into it.
- [178:15]
A
There was a story, there was a famous story of Jackie Gleason and Nixon, I think.
- [178:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, that is a famous story that I've heard as well of. Apparently Nixon was a big Jackie Gleason fan.
- [178:28]
A
Yeah.
- [178:28]
B
And Jackie Gleason was very obsessed with this topic. And apparently there was one day where they were talking on the golf course about it and Nixon apparently said, you know, basically, this is real. I'm going to show you some stuff. And, and apparently he showed him a recovered UFO on a military base.
- [178:47]
A
Oh, I thought he showed him an. I, I thought the story was he showed him an alien Body.
- [178:50]
B
Oh, well, I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
- [178:52]
A
That's. That I could be wrong.
- [178:53]
B
That's what I. In this particular story, just to say it, I don't. I don't know what source that came from. This is just something that's kind of like a story. It's like a myth that's out there in pop culture. I don't know if it's real or not real, but those Reagan thing, I'm pretty sure.
- [179:07]
A
Oh, here's the. Here's the story about Spielberg and ET can you zoom in a little bit in? The new interview ain't cool. New Spielberg details the time he screened the classic film E.T. at the White House for Reagan and distinguished guests and the former president's coy response to the Alien epic. He just. This is a quote from Spielberg. He just stood up, he looked around the room, almost like he was doing a head count. And then he said, I want to thank you for bringing E. T to the White House. We really enjoyed your movie. And then he looked around the room and said, and there are a number of people in this room who know that everything on that screen is absolutely true. Spielberg remembered. Wow.
- [179:49]
B
And Spielberg says he said it without smiling.
- [179:51]
A
Without smiling, yeah.
- [179:53]
B
So that's the story I remember. And Stephen did say that I saw the interview. That's actually an on camera interview, I think.
- [179:58]
A
No way.
- [179:59]
B
So, yeah. And that when you combine that with, you know, Reagan gave a speech at the United nations that, that most people either don't know happened or forgot about. I put it in my film. In the Age of Disclosure. He gives a speech where he talks about how he often thinks that the one thing that will unite humanity amongst adversaries is a threat from another intelligent life from outside this planet. And how it will help us see more of what we have in common. Differences.
- [180:36]
A
We'll think of each other. Instead of Americans and Chinese and Russians, we'll think of each other as earthlings.
- [180:41]
B
Yeah. But the wild thing about that is, like, put yourself in his shoes. He's the President of the United States. He's giving a speech at the UN he can say anything he wants. And he chooses to say that he often thinks about this. Why do you often think about this? Unless it's a situation that you have to think about. President of the United States doesn't have, like, free time, you know, like. Yeah, you're choosing very specifically to say that you often think about this. And then there's this, this, this Spielberg story and there's other stories One of the, one of the people I interviewed there was actually a few people I should, I should make this clear. There's a few people I interviewed that I didn't end up including in the film simply because there wasn't time or like what they talked about. There wasn't like an organic way to get to it in the context of the doc. It would have felt like a, like a right hand turn out of nowhere, you know. And they were really great people, super credible that I'm grateful they gave me their time. And one day I will put those interviews out too somehow since some, some form. But one of them was a former NSA guy who was involved in Reagan's Star wars program. And he says on camera that he came to understand the concern about UAP coming in and out of our atmosphere was one of the motivations for the Star wars program. Wow. Yeah. Pretty wild.
- [182:13]
A
That is nuts.
- [182:14]
B
Yeah. And he also talks about how Reagan was. Had. Had learned how real the situation was. Now it's revealed in my film that most US Presidents are kept in the dark on this. They're not told the truth and that they're told the base facts. I think some presidents, my understanding is some presidents, once they learned the base facts kind of like on their own, figured out the rest, but they're largely just kept in the dark. Yeah, but yeah, Reagan and then Bush. The other one who has a big role and we talk about in the film is Bush 2. Excuse me, Bush 1. Bush Sr. When he was director of the CIA he was not read in on this. He was not told the truth about the crash retrieval and reverse engineering program but that he found out that it existed. And then when he became president he went out of his way to learn the truth about it and got very involved. And then his son Bush too knew
- [183:10]
A
the base facts and he wanted to disclose it. Right.
- [183:12]
B
And he was contemplating disclosing it. It. So he held a multi day think tank. We talk about it in my film. One of the people who participated in the think tank is Dr. Hal Pudov who's in my film. He tells the story about how he. And I think he said like a dozen other people from various parts of society, scientists, people from finance were put in a room basically and told that the Russians and the Chinese and the Americans have all recovered technology of non human origin and it's circumstances that we're all dealing with. And that the President was contemplating stepping to the microphone and telling the world the base facts. And he wanted this group of people to assess what the Repercussions would be what the impact would be on society and rank it from A, A1 to 10 scale each vertical. Like the impact on religion, the impact on the economy, the impact on just a list of things. Right. And they all went in, he said they all went into it thinking this was going to be a good thing. And then when they started to like honestly evaluate it and like run the numbers, they decided that it was not a good idea and that there was more, more, more harm than good than pros. Relative to the story is the fact that it was like just after 9, 11. So the context also was like the world was already dealing with, with you know, a big curveball and chaos and. Right. You know, the global war on terror had started and you know, the timing of it also was a factor. But Hal goes on the record on camera saying he participated in this and this was an actual process that happened in our lifetime. Which is wild, you know, to think that like, you think back to the, the, you know, Bush presidency and you thought you knew what was going on in the world and this was happening in a room secretly in D.C. that's crazy. And then when asked about it, I found a clip of Bush asked about it. Bush 2 being asked about it on, on Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah.
- [185:10]
A
He's like, I'm not gonna tell you.
- [185:11]
B
Yeah, right. And timing wise, it was soon after this panel and he says, Kimmel goes, you know, have you looked into this? And, and he thinks for a second, he goes, yeah, but not gonna tell you.
- [185:24]
A
Right.
- [185:25]
B
And when you put it all together, you're just like, wow. So, yeah, I think some presidents have found out out and then ultimately been discouraged from. Sure. Coming forward on it. Yeah. But.
- [185:34]
A
Well, let's see if Trump conceal his legacy and be the one that does it.
- [185:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, let's, let's see what happens then. You know, come back and talk about
- [185:40]
A
some crazy happening right now. Trump doing this, missing scientists. We'll see. Yeah, it's going to be an interesting year.
- [185:47]
B
We are, we are 100 living in, in the age of disclosure. That is, that is for sure. I do think a lot more is going to be coming out though. Seriously. And everyone should look for Jay Stratton's book. That's gonna blow people's minds. I'm, I'm thinking about what the next film I'm gonna make is. I'm having some high level conversations with folks in government about doing a follow up film. There's also a bunch of these like standalone stories that I'm interested in. Like, we've talked about a few of them that could be on their own. Standalone docs like Deep Dives down a specific situation that happened in the same way that James did that great film Moment of Contact, and focused on that one event and. Yeah, and I'm building, you know, I, I, I founded Relentless Releasing, the distribution company that, that released the film and building that and going to be releasing other movies as well, so. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm thinking about a bunch of different things for the, for, for what's next.
- [186:44]
A
Well, it's a fantastic film and it's definitely doing a huge part, moving the needle and getting people talking about this and making it more normalized and, you know, helping us push this out so we can finally get the truth, hopefully in my lifetime.
- [186:56]
B
Yeah, we will. And thank, thank you for putting shining a light on this topic, man. I. Every, every conversation you have about it helps normalize it and make people realize what's going on.
- [187:06]
A
My pleasure, man. I enjoy, I enjoyed every moment of this. And we'll, we will link your film below. Thank you and all that good stuff. And thanks again, dude.
- [187:13]
B
Thank you. Appreciate it. Oh, man. Cool.
- [187:15]
A
Good night, world.