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#400 - Astrobiologist: What NASA Isn’t Telling Us About Mars | Alyssa Carson
02:03:51
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- [00:00]
Interviewer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance and affiliates not available in all states and situations. Prices may vary on how you buy. Are you really gonna be the first person to go to Mars? Sure you want to do that?
- [00:32]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I don't know, obviously, but I will certainly put in a good effort to do it. I think I've always had an interest in wanting to contribute to the space industry. And really for me, I think I've done a lot to almost separate like, my dreams and ambitions from like, things I can control. And so I had this initial interest in wanting to become an astronaut. Get involved in space, locked in super quick with the idea of wanting to go to Mars, mostly because I thought that was my only option. Like when I was a kid and hearing about how, you know, we've already sent people to the moon, I was like, well, when I grow up, Mars is the only option that I can go to. Like, that's the only thing I'm going to be able to do if I want to be an astronaut. So got super locked in on Mars and you know, as I got more and more interested, I think I started understanding of, okay, here's what I can do to work towards becoming an astronaut. And then also at like, what point is it, you know, okay, it's someone else making that decision. You know, I can do all this work to make the best resume possible and then at that point I'll give it my best effort. But at the end of the day, it's someone choosing those things. Right. Have to apply to the astronaut selection process, get selected and then even from there, I mean, depending on which mission you get selected on. So I think really my dreams have focused so much on the things that I can control and then we'll see.
- [01:53]
Interviewer
Yeah, didn't I saw recently that Elon actually scrapped his goal to go to Mars and now he like dialed it back to the moon. He's like, we need to go to the moon first. Did you see that?
- [02:05]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I did.
- [02:05]
Interviewer
What did you think about that?
- [02:07]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
You know, I think that Mars was almost like jumping the gun a little bit with a lot of ambitions that there were surrounding it. I mean, Mars has been a hot topic, I mean, for so long, it's just been such a, such a area of interest. Obviously Mars is literally the most studied planet, second to Earth. So we've Just sent so many rovers, satellites, things we've learned so much about the planet and so that's created such this interest and draw to it. And I think that there's even still today, I think there's still some challenges that especially technology challenges and just the aspect of you know, keeping humans alive for that extent of time on a long term mission. And so there's just a lot of things to figure out. So I think a lot of these like early ide of wanting to go to Mars, as I said, was almost jumping the gun just because there were still so many issues to figure out before we could get there or like put a hard date on it. I think there's been a lot of improvements in that area. I think that we've made a lot of progress in making a mission to Mars more realistic and there's been, you know, it's starting to become more and more of a possibility. But yeah, I think it makes perfect sense that we're kind of like going back to the moon first testing a lot of these systems because I mean, geez, it's been been since the 1970s that we've done deep space travel and sure, that's different technologies, that's a different type of space travel, you know, different periods of time in space. Obviously it's a whole new rocket, whole new systems, all that has to get tested first. So I do think it's a good call. But yeah, I think finally maybe a little sense came to, to what it takes to actually do the Mars mission.
- [03:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, so explain like what your goal is as far as like being, becoming like an actual astronaut. Like how did like how much training have you been through and like what does it take to be like one of the people that gets chosen and who does the choosing?
- [03:58]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so I think that for me my first interest was just wanting to become an astronaut. I didn't really know what an astronaut was inherently. I mean I started learning a little bit about the space industry and then when I was young I went to space camp in Huntsville and that was like my dad always says, like that was my Disney World. Like you got to ride simulators, you got to meet astronauts. And so I felt like I was learning so much about the space industry like from just going to camp there. And I think that's when I started forming like okay, there's like different jobs, right? You can be a scientist, you can be a pilot, you can be a doctor. There's so many different routes you can go. And then that's when I think I started Shifting, Okay. An astronaut isn't really a job that you can pursue. Right. You can't go to college and study astronauting. And so then I was like, okay, what do I want to do from there? And I didn't really know. I mean, it started just like an inquisitory thing of like, what do I want to do? Like, would I want to be a pilot? Would I want to go to the military? Would I want to just do science? And so really my childhood was figuring a lot of those things out and almost trying different things. But it was through like a lot of like almost physically trying them and figured out that I really was interested in a lot of the science aspect of it. Now I'm an astrobiologist, so I fell really into the field of astrobiology. And that was just kind of natural progression of like figuring out what these interests were and then from there working on building that resume to apply to the astronaut selection process. So NASA has an astronaut selection process that they open up every few years. It's usually at random. So it's not like they're always in need of astronauts. Right. Because they already have astronauts. So it's mostly just, you know, when they're in need for a new class, they'll open that selection process up, send in an application, and really there's not too many requirements. So, you know, you have to hold at least a master's. You have to really. Yes, so you just have to have a Master's in some sort of stem. If you're coming from more of a pilot background, I think it's like 1000 hours flight, like flight hours, have a little work experience and then you're eligible to apply. So there's not many requirements in order to apply. So I took that as, okay, how can I build the best resume? What are things I can do? And to almost enhance that because it's like I have a Master's. Well, so does 18,000 of the other applicants. Right. And so it's starting to now try to differentiate yourself in that way. Yeah, so that's really what I was looking into. Trying to find these like unique opportunities to almost add stuff to the resume. And. Yeah, so, I mean, I guess as far as things that I've done or been interested in, I mean, I did like scuba diving and skydiving as like an aspect of learning more about some of those like, less gravity environments. So, you know, NASA uses like underwater to simulate like long duration microgravity in a way. They like train underwater in Houston in their pool. So like learning Some of those environments I got involved with IIAs, which is like a citizen science research institute. So it's like normal people, but it's conducting, like, real research. So with them I got to work with a spacesuit company, try on spacesuits, got to do microgravity flights, atmospheric imaging. And I think that really, like, was a lot of the beginning that got me super interested in research. Which is why I'm in a PhD program now and like, heavily pursuing, I guess, the research side of things. So, yeah, a lot of those just experiences were really, I guess, to build on the resume. But really just genuine interest in a lot of these different fields. And I feel like I learned a wide variety of, like, different fields within the space industry. And then slowly found, like, my, my niche within it.
- [07:37]
Interviewer
Now, when you say you did scuba diving, did you actually go into, like, those giant pools where they put you in those, like, big contraptions and spin you around and stuff?
- [07:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so I've done, you know, obviously, like, normal scuba diving. And then so I did that. I've also done, like, the aquanaut certification, which is where you, like, stay underwater for a full 24 hours.
- [07:57]
Interviewer
Whoa.
- [07:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so you go inside of, like. I mean, you're in a you facility, but it's still submerged. So it's almost like living inside of a scuba tank is how they describe it in terms of, like, the effect on your body. And like, you're living in that environment. So I did that, which was honestly really cool. Got pizza delivered down there, which.
- [08:16]
Interviewer
Oh. So there's like, you're like in a bubble.
- [08:17]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
You're like in like a facility, but it's like fully submerged. It was like 30ft down. So I did that as like, a way to honestly just understand living in, like, a habitat environment. But as far as what you're talking about with the, you know, the big pools, not the one at NASA Johnson. But I did do a very similar. We were almost creating a mock up of very similar. So like our own version of that. And we had like, a full contraption underwater. It was in a big pool. Rather than using spacesuits, I was involved in kind of the initial testing of the system. So we were in full scuba gear, but using, like, a full face. So the. Where you can, you know, still communicate, have communications built in. And we did like, a simulation of testing, like a spacewalk underwater in it. So we had like, the. The build out. And they were eventually going to take that to then use for, like, spacesuit testing. But I was helping them with that, like Initial getting it all built and put together. So that was really fun.
- [09:16]
Interviewer
Were you, were you like the only. How old were you when you did that?
- [09:21]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
That was probably a few years ago, so maybe 20, 21, 22 ish.
- [09:26]
Interviewer
So were you for sure the youngest person?
- [09:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I was almost, almost Any and everything that I've done, I've probably 10
- [09:33]
Interviewer
year gap between you and the next person.
- [09:34]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I've certainly been the youngest at like everything. But it's been, I don't know, it's been fun. I think that a lot of the time I've been able to like really show that like young people can have really serious interests in a lot of these fields. And so, you know, very grateful to IAS because when I like first, first started with them, I was only like 15 and they were like still open to, to having me involved in things. And so they've just been so wonderful and including me in a lot of this.
- [10:04]
Interviewer
And yeah, like the idea of being one of the first people to go to Mars is pretty scary. Like is you. Do you still think about it the same way now that you did when you were like 16?
- [10:16]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I mean, I guess yes and no. I mean, I think that I really do think about like my interest in wanting to become an astronaut. And even with the Mars thing, you know, I really just want to as a goal contribute to the space industry in any capacity, in whatever makes the most sense. I think my goals really align with obviously the overarching goals. I want the best people who go on that first mission to Mars to be the best possible candidates. So I don't know for sure if that's me. I would love to tell you that I'm for sure gonna go. But I think really for me, I really want the success of the space industry and I want to be able to contribute to it. And you know, if that ends up becoming a part of the mission, then that's great. If that is a part of like the research that aids in the mission, that's great too. And so I think that that's really, I think the biggest difference from like a lot of those initial goals to like where I am now is, you know, I just think that the space industry is such a unique one that I just feel like I've learned so much about it and it's such a community and it's such a space that I think is really important that we continue to pursue and continue to succeed in. And so I think that's why my interest now are so much of just whatever the Success and whatever the best case scenario is for us, continuing that exploration, I think is what's most important.
- [11:37]
Interviewer
Yeah, so, like, what are the logistics of. Actually, actually before I ask you that, so. So Elon pulled it back to the moon, but is NASA still. Does they still have a plan or like a schedule as far as at least trying to get to Mars?
- [11:52]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So NASA I think is still interested in. There's not, I guess, official statement or timeline, but a lot of the art, the current Artemis program is setting up a potential for a Mars mission. And so they certainly are still interested, but it may be like a joint effort. So I mean, even with a lot of the current Artemis program and going back to the moon, it is joint efforts with commercial companies. So I'm pretty sure like the lander systems and everything for the like, lunar mission is coming from like commercial companies. So some parts are NASA, some parts are commercial companies, which really is not that surprising. NASA has always used like private contractors. I mean, Lockheed Martin, I mean, it's kind of that same aspect, except now you're having SpaceX Blue Origin be some of those contractors. So it's certainly a collaborative effort. So I think, you know, the same thing may be true with the mission to Mars. You know, parts of it may be NASA, it may be a NASA rocket, but then, you know, commercial, other systems, habitat, you know, SpaceX having, being the provider of the habitat system or like the lander system. So I think it's certainly going to be a collaborative effort as far as timeline goes. I mean, NASA has stated they are working on getting back to the moon, having the next Artemis 3 will test those lander systems. Artemis 4 plans to land on the moon and then we'll kind of see from there. I know that they want to establish permanent presence is the term that they're saying for the moon.
- [13:19]
Interviewer
Right.
- [13:19]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So some sort of habitat system, some, you know, whatever they claim as like, you know, so who knows how many missions that will take to accomplish their goal of permanent presence. And then Mars will certainly come in. But they're still certainly working on a lot of the technologies and ideas of getting to Mars. So I would certainly not count them out for a mission.
- [13:41]
Interviewer
The Artemis thing was so funny to me because when I had, I had Tim Dodd in here, the guy from Everyday Astronaut, and he was, when he was here, they were supposed to launch it like the following week and they kept pushing it because of weather and all that stuff. And they eventually did it on April Fool's Day. I was joking with some of my friends and I was like, was there. I would love to be in those meetings in NASA and just be a fly on the wall to, like, understand was there any logical technical reason they couldn't do it on the second? Like, why the first?
- [14:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, you know, I think they just didn't care that it was April Fool's Day, mainly.
- [14:26]
Interviewer
I'm sure they had no one thought of that.
- [14:27]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think they certainly. Can we do the second. They certainly did. Yeah. I mean, really. So the launch windows are just place solely for the sake of, like, trajectory. So, like, if we launch which days can we launch and have the correct trajectory that they're going to accomplish their mission? And so that's why, you know, there was only a few days of the each month that they could potentially launch on. And it's funny because you could say, like, yeah, sure, we could have done it on the second. But then it also, what if the first would have launched, but then the second got scrubbed and the third got scrubbed. Now we're pushed to May, May, even June, who knows, you know, and so it's. You want to take advantage of any good opportunity that you have.
- [15:06]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [15:06]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so because there was no guarantee we could have gone on the second, there could have been weather delays, it could have been anything. And so it's really just making the most of any opportunity you can to keep the mission moving forward. Because, I mean, as you said, it was already delays from other issues. And it was supposed to go in February, then March, and so it was really just taking advantage of the best possible moment. And I mean, it was like a, to a T, almost like perfect launch. It launched like at the beginning of the launch window. I mean, it was, it was crazy.
- [15:35]
Interviewer
And I think they used the, the, the thrusters from the space shuttle, I think, or the engines from the original space shuttle, which is kind of nuts.
- [15:44]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so they were, I know for sure they were refurbishing a lot of the old engines from the space shuttle program. And that was like a big part of, kind of with the Artemis program as a whole. And then, I mean, even, I mean, there's a lot of refurbishing, which is kind of good to see because they're, you know, the space industry has been almost wasteful, you could say, in a way, looking back at like, the history of it, you know, the amount of stuff that is spent in having to build a whole new rocket for every mission. And that's been a big advantage, I think, too, of like, commercial space. And it's brought in a lot of like, the reusability. But I mean, even like the Orion spacecraft that the astronauts just flew in, that will get refurbished and potentially used on another Artemis mission. So we'll take a look at it and try to reuse it again.
- [16:26]
Interviewer
If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved, I encourage you to please come check out our Patreon community. Not only does our Patreon community get every episode you see on YouTube early, fully uncensored and ad free, but we're also doing Patreon exclusive episodes as well as live Q and A's. And you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week. For me, being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our Patreon community every week has been huge. And this is my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Now back to the show. How many, how many windows of opportunity are there to launch to Mars every year? Isn't it, isn't it true there's only a few of them?
- [17:05]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So it's pretty like, minimal. I mean, it's really. I mean, I don't know if I'd have like an exact number. It really just depends on, like, the way the planets are orbiting because. Right. Sometimes Mars is really far away from us and sometimes it's much closer to us. And so you'd want to launch at like the closest possible opportunity. And you know, sometimes there's an opportunity to launch. It may not be like the best opportunity, but like, you can launch. But certainly like calculating those trajectories. That's a little past my pay grade. That's what all the really smart.
- [17:40]
Interviewer
What's this say, Steve? Oh, this is basically what she's talking about. Yeah. Because. Because the planets are so slow to rotate. Okay. There's like a sweet spot and then you have to wait until the next year. Oh yeah. It's on the other side of the sun.
- [17:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So you're almost like playing a game of like, catch up. So, like, when you launch, you're just trying to catch up to where Mars is like, going to be at like a later point.
- [18:06]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [18:07]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And I mean, it's the same thing that they do with like, when they send like, satell or like anything to Mars. Right. It's always trying to, to make sure that you align. Because I think currently NASA plans to send a new satellite to Mars in 2028, and that's going to be going and testing a new, I guess, propulsion system that's.
- [18:26]
Interviewer
Oh, really?
- [18:27]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So they're going to be looking at nuclear propulsion for this mission. And that's a potential that I know has been talked about for a while because they're trying to look at reducing the timeline of getting to Mars because that's, that's the biggest, I would say personally, is the biggest issue with getting to Mars is how long it takes to get there.
- [18:48]
Interviewer
Yeah. How long does it currently take with our current technology?
- [18:50]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So like current engines and stuff, you're looking like six to nine months is like the timeline. And then obviously, if you were to have a human mission, you'd want to stay there for a little chunk of time. And then obviously with the trajectories, you may even end up being there for a long time before you're able to come back and then another six to nine months. I mean, it's just a really, really long mission. And that's what think makes it challenging. I think that, you know, we're used to having astronauts in space for a year. You know, astronauts have lived on the International Space Station for a year at a time, but it's really just how long the mission is compared to what we've seen before. And I think that if we're able to shorten the timeline to Mars and make it a more reasonable timeline, then the mission becomes a lot more possible.
- [19:34]
Interviewer
Yeah. So tell me about this nuclear propulsion stuff. I've never heard of this.
- [19:38]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So it was.
- [19:39]
Interviewer
We ever used it before?
- [19:40]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
No, I think, I think this mission to Mars is going to be the first that they're like really using it for. And that is going. It was like recently, the NASA administrator said, because he kind of was aligning or laying out some of the plans for like the next Artemis missions and then also mentioned this Mars mission. So like I said, I think it's planned for 2028. We'll see if that timeline gets met. But I do know that it has
- [20:05]
Interviewer
this satellite being launched.
- [20:06]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So it's. It's going to just kind of be testing this propulsion system, which I know is something that has been worked on for a while. But a lot of what I was like hearing was that the big goal was to try to reduce a mission to Mars timeline from six months to six weeks to make it a way more reasonable timeline. So that was the ultimate goal. So I'm not sure if this will. I guess we'll see whenever this mission goes, how long it takes and how much of an improvement this propulsion is. But I do know that it's been a big goal for a long time.
- [20:41]
Interviewer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home in auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. If you love diving into culture and comedy like on Danny Jones podcast, playoff hockey is right up your alley. NHL on TNT has the best coverage, making every game feel intense and unpredictable. Playoff hockey is a different level. Overtime, big hits and no. 1 coast. The studio crew with Paul Bissonnet cracking jokes and Wayne Gretzky breaking things down makes it even more fun to watch. Every shift matters and the personalities keep things lively. Watch the Stanley cup playoffs on tnt, tbs, True TV and hbo. Max. Yeah. And what are some of the other like biggest hurdles as far as traveling to Mars other than the time? Right. Because the time is an insane one. You kind of have to be like, to be the person that's going to be willing to do that. You kind of like you got to be able, you got to be willing to kiss your whole life goodbye. Right. Because there's a good chance you're not going to come back.
- [21:59]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think that for like a mission to Mars. I think, yeah. I personally think timeline is our number one biggest issue. Just because a lot of the other issues that are with the Mars mission, we've semi combated them before or like maybe not to the extent of like a mission to Mars, but there's been almost like similar scenarios. I think at least for the first missions, I don't think there's going to be a possibility of a one way mission at least especially from NASA themselves. So unless it's like Elon or like a private industry pursuing some sort of one way, I don't think NASA will ever do a one way mission.
- [22:38]
Interviewer
No.
- [22:38]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So they have always been, I guess the core of their goal is to, you know, have this scientific expedition, scientific discovery and then bring the astronauts home. So I don't think Mars will be different and I don't think they will do a Mars mission until the option of a return is possible. So you know, I think that if they're pursuing a Mars mission, it's because there's like the means of coming back. So we'll see if that delays the timeline and making sure that we have more technology to get there. And you know, that maybe opens room for, I guess commercial endeavors if they, if they have that interest. But yeah, I think a Lot of the Mars mission will certainly be a multi way. But not to say that a one way isn't possible in the future, but I think that for like the first missions we'll certainly have returns.
- [23:27]
Interviewer
Yeah. And then when the radiation must be a huge problem.
- [23:30]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think radiation would certainly be the next, you know, second to time the timeline just because yeah, it's dangerous and it is certainly a challenging one. I know that a big idea, especially even for on the moon, you know, is looking at having like habitats and stuff subsurface, so going like having the actual habitat be beneath the surface. So that way you have the actual surface of Mars protecting you from some of that radiation while you're there. And, and then there's also been a bunch of ideas of like actually protecting the capsule or like whatever you're in. But obviously there's plenty of ideas but nothing's like set in stone.
- [24:08]
Interviewer
What is this, Steve? Oh, this is an article about it.
- [24:11]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes.
- [24:11]
Interviewer
History and mystery surround NASA's 2028 nuclear Mars mission. Fission powered space flight, a 60 year dream would supercharge the outer solar system exploration. So is this going to like literally be like a nuclear detonation when it launches? Okay. Nearly all of today's space missions rely on chemical rockets which require vast quantities of heavy fuel and are comparatively slow. Instead, nuclear electric propulsion, NEP relies on fission to generate heat which gets converted to electricity via a gas turbine. This power in turn ionizes a gas propellant into a plasma that shoots continuously out of the thrusters. Wow.
- [24:53]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so I would say. So the actual like satellite system that they're using for this, that's going to have the nuclear propulsion, the actual rocket that's launching off of Earth will not have nuclear. So they'll still launch it from Earth as if it was like normal. And then they'll deploy the actual satellite that has the nuclear propulsion and then that satellite will then take off to Mars using the nuclear propulsion. So it will essentially get like turned on I guess.
- [25:20]
Interviewer
How far will the rocket go?
- [25:21]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Probably just a low earth orbit.
- [25:23]
Interviewer
So and the satellite will have a separate propulsion system that will shoot it into Mars.
- [25:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so almost all like rockets are just going to be like your vessel to get to space once you're in space then, because so much of the rocket gets like used up just by the time it gets to space. So that's why even like with the Artemis mission, the solid rocket boosters, they're spent, they get taken off, they jettison, you know, kind of the big core stage that gets jettisoned you use up all that fuel. The hardest part about getting to space is leaving Earth just because all of that gravity, you need so much thrust, you need so much fue. That's the hard part. That's why rockets are so big and they take so much fuel. But once you're in space, you know, you have much more flexibility. There's, you don't have all those forces fighting you. So more than likely they'll use, you know, I mean, they may even use like a SpaceX rocket or a, or a NASA rocket or, you know, Delta Heavy. Whatever it takes for the satellite to just get it to space and then they'll deploy it and it's going to be using that nuclear power to, to actually get to Mars. And that's going to be the, the interesting part.
- [26:24]
Interviewer
And for the Mars mission, once you have to refuel in like that, in like orbit or something.
- [26:31]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So I think it just kind of depends on what the mission is going to look like. I mean, there's possibilities. I mean, you could have a case where you go from Earth to the moon, you know, maybe do like a fuel stop. Depending on how big of a vessel you have actually going to Mars, you could have enough fuel to, to go there. So I think it just kind of depends on what it ends up looking like. I know some ideas have been like, almost having like a miniature international space station, almost being like the vessel of going to Mars. So, like, you'll launch and then you'll dock with almost this miniature space station, and then that's gonna be the thing going to Mars. So it just depends on what logistically works out. I mean, again with the Mars mission, since it's so theoretical, there's so many ideas of possibilities of what we could do with sending humans to Mars. But like, obviously nothing's been like concrete selected for it, right?
- [27:25]
Interviewer
How much testing and trial and error and how much experimentation is being done or floated around on how to logistically get people there safe. Like, do they do, you know, if they know, like, will you go to sleep for the six months that you're traveling there and go into like a hibernation or like, how much of that stuff has actually been thought about?
- [27:49]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think there's been a lot. I think space is as a whole, it's always long term. You can't do anything fast. In the space industry, not a single idea or a single thing that we see happen is, you know, a quick endeavor. I mean, even you look at the Artemis mission that just launched, right? The Artemis mission or I guess you can even go back to Artemis 1, which didn't have humans on it, but it was the start of the Artemis program. I mean, that was in, you know, a few years ago. And that has been an endeavor since the space shuttle program ended in 2011. So from 2011 to now is how long it's taken to build this new rocket, get it going, actually have it on the launch pad and make it a reality. And so it's really funny because from someone that hears so much of what's going on in the space industry, the public's like, oh my gosh, this rocket just shot up overnight and now it's taking astronauts. Is it safe? But it's been tested for over 10 years now. And so it's been an endeavor that's been happening. And the Mars mission is no different. I mean, there's a lot of also just like, academic research that goes into a lot of this too. So like universities, I mean, there's people that will do like, human studies and you do like analog missions and they have humans practicing that human, human interaction of how would it be to be in a Mars habitat for that period of time. And so there's a lot of those different types of research that that's been, I mean, happening for many years. And I think we'll continue to kind of gather that data in preparation for a future Mars mission.
- [29:22]
Interviewer
Right. And so in, in 2033, I believe it. I read something that said Earth is going to be the closest it's ever been to Mars in like thousands of years.
- [29:34]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [29:35]
Interviewer
So that would be the optimal window, 2033, but that seems very aggressive.
- [29:41]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, No, I, I'm, I 100% agree. I mean, I've, I've heard 2033 for a really long time.
- [29:47]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [29:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
With how much it kind of aligns and just from a trajectory standpoint and how much of a benefit it would be that Mars is closest to Earth and closer than it has been in a really long time. I do agree that I think 2033 is a very ambitious goal up to this point. And I think it's, you know, space travel again, it's such a slow process. And so, you know, things, anytime something gets like, delayed or pushed back, it just kind of makes it more difficult. So I guess we'll see, you never know. But I would think that especially from NASA's perspective, if they are planning to have some sort of permanent presence or I guess, habitat thing by 2028 on the moon, and that's going to be some of those initial Missions to the moon. Then, you know, a 2033, you know, mission just seems way too close to a lot of these, like, lunar missions.
- [30:40]
Interviewer
Yeah. Well, it would be probably a better if you could launch from the moon, you know.
- [30:46]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [30:47]
Interviewer
You could set up launch pads on the moon or somehow get enough resources there. It would be probably far easier.
- [30:55]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So I mean, I think that that's been a big idea and that's why it almost shifted, you know, for a while. I mean, what we see today as the Artemis program has been definitely reworked a lot of times because originally after the space shuttle program ended, we had what was called the Constellation program. Then that got scrapped, and then it's kind of slowly merged into what we see as current day Artemis. And I think a lot of the initial ideas was going to be let's go to Mars. And then after looking into going to Mars, it was then, okay, wait, maybe we're going back to the moon first. Maybe the moon is like a launch pad to Mars. And so it's just been a lot of iterations of what this is going to look like. And I think that that's why kind of we're at the point of we are going back to the moon, we're going to kind of reestablish ourselves as, you know, doing deep space travel, you know, accomplishing something that has been done, but in a new way with new technologies, and then see how we can utilize that as a resource for even deeper space flight.
- [31:55]
Interviewer
And this just popped into my head. I remember this when I talked to Tim Dodd was we found. There was this article that talked about this discovery of this fungus. Have you seen it? This ch. Chernobyl fungus that was found in Chernobyl where there was a nuclear meltdown.
- [32:10]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [32:10]
Interviewer
Decades ago.
- [32:11]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [32:11]
Interviewer
And allegedly there's this like fungi that's growing in like ground zero zero of Chernobyl. And they found that it actually eats radiation. So they're hypothesizing that this mysterious black fungus could be used in the space capsules or the. Where they're transporting these people across deep. And it could protect them from the, from the radiation. Show the, the first, what is the first paragraph of it say? Mold found at the site of Chernobyl nuclear disaster appears to be feeding off radiation. So they're, they're thinking that they could use this to shield the space travels from the cosmic rays. Insane.
- [32:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is a lot of, I mean, my current research and kind of what I do within astrobiology is certainly like that melting pot between microbiology and space travel. So, you know, working with organisms in space, like environments. And so honestly, organisms, I think are so fascinating and which is why I've kind of gone into this route of research. But I think it's something that we certainly going to learn more about. I mean, even aside from, you know, using organisms to maybe eat radiation, we're also learning a lot of organisms that are able to survive on the outside of the International Space Station and survive in the vacuum of space. And they are. Yeah, so there's been a lot of. This is also kind of more, you know, current in academic research. But they did like an experiment. I go to an astrobiology conference. And so it's really fun to kind of hear a lot of these, like, new, like, research studies. But they were having astronauts, like, swab the outside of their gloves, like while they were outside on an eva, and then they're basically growing that to see if anything is coming out. I mean, tardigrades have always been a big area of conversation, which is basically this, this organism that is, that they've put on the outside of the National Space Station. And it just survives.
- [34:14]
Interviewer
It comes back.
- [34:15]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It, it certainly, it's able to put up with the radiation. It's able to, to really evolve. And organisms, they adapt so quickly, and they're able to adapt obviously much more quickly than humans are. And so I think that that's certainly a big area of interest. And that's one of the things that fascinates me so much about the astrobiology field and really bringing in organisms, because honestly, they're much more adaptable than we are. And so if they're able to survive in these environments, then you learn so much about those systems and how those work and see how that can be used for other things.
- [34:52]
Interviewer
Now, we have not found any evidence of any kind of microorganisms on Mars yet, right?
- [34:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, we have not. So my research specifically does look at the potential of organisms growing, especially in like, a past Mars situation. Because from what we know about current day Mars, it's not great.
- [35:12]
Interviewer
Not great.
- [35:13]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It does look pretty inhabitable. You know, you have the radiation, which is your bigger issue. But looking at Mars past, we think it used to be a lot more similar to Earth. So in like, the early stages of Mars and the formation of the solar system, we think, you know, it used to have liquid water. We think it used to be much more habitable. And so by looking at that, we can also test organisms in those environments to see how, how they react and if they would be able to Survive. So organisms that we know of here that already survive and maybe some unique environments, are they then able to survive in those unique environments like we saw on early day Mars?
- [35:49]
Interviewer
Well, Elon was saying that there's so much ice on Mars, not even at the poles like all around Mars that's just covered in dust. He said if you were to heat up that planet, planet, he believes that you would have mild deep Oceans covering about 40% of it. And he thinks that about 4, about 4 billion years ago it was a blue planet just like Earth and that we possibly came. Are we. I think there's a large consensus of astrobiologists that believe life started on Mars.
- [36:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, there certainly is a theory of, you know, if Mars used to be more similar to Earth, then, you know, was that maybe somewhere that, that humans used to survive. But we know, we know for sure. And I mean, again, Mars is such a well studied planet at this point, but we really are learning a lot about, you know, how much water was on Mars and where it came from. And we also think, you know, Mars used to be more in that like habitable zone. So we think of, you know, Earth being in the habitable zone where you can have liquid water. And so we think Mars used to be a little bit more in that habitable zone closer to where Earth is. Right. And then it's kind of slowly shifted outward kind of in the formation of things. And again, geological timelines, I mean, this is over the span of millions and millions of years. But you know, with, with the way we used to or think Mars used to look, it just used to have a lot more potential, especially than what we see from today. So that's why there's always been that, that interest in what could be there or what used to be there. And yeah, there's still a lot of interest. I think there's kind of a bit of a balance, I guess, because I'm, my research is certainly in the possibility of microorganism that used to live on Mars or even, you know, if there's any way to find things. And we're still discovering stuff. I mean, we recently just discovered a whole new slew of new minerals that the Curiosity rover just discovered. Honestly, it was a new paper that just came out. They found some minerals that we hadn't classified yet. And so that was really interesting to look at on Mars. Yeah, so they're constantly sampling Mars with the, with the rovers. And so with that they are, you know, collecting new samples and some minerals we've seen in like meteorites that have come from Mars and then some we've seen with like other, you know, collections, but this one had a few new ones and so that's been really interesting. So there's still so much we don't know. So it's so hard because it's easy to jump to so many conclusions. And really science as a whole is always jumping to conclusions. I guess you almost have to roll with some unknowns, but we're still learning so much about Mars that we didn't even know previously. So it's going to be interesting. And why a lot of interest is in a human mission. Right. Because is we have these rovers, they're discovering a lot of stuff that we didn't know about the planet. But rovers have such long timelines, right. Because of like the time delay between Earth and Mars. So if you were to send a message to Mars. Right?
- [38:42]
Interviewer
Yeah. How fast can we send those messages?
- [38:43]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It's usually about like 15 minutes. When Mars is like pretty close to us, it can get like upwards to like longer to like 30ish minutes.
- [38:51]
Interviewer
But we can't do it at light speed.
- [38:53]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
No, not quite that fast. Usually there, there is usually about a 15ish minute time delay that a lot of the people that work with the rovers also have to. So you have to think of the rovers as such an incredibly slow process because if you're like move forward 2ft, 15 minutes later it hears it, it does that, then you know, 15, another 15 minutes later it's like I successfully moved two feet. So like in the span of like Maybe even minimally 30 minutes, you've moved like a couple feet. So it just is such a slow process. And that's really been a big one of the big benefits about potentially sending humans rather than kind of some of the more robotic technology that we have there is that, that a human can actually. Oh, that rock looks interesting. Let's collect that. Let's do this, let's do this experiment.
- [39:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, we would have to get like some, some SpaceX Starlink satellites going so we could get some super high speed broadband WI fi, you know, better the technology.
- [39:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, I think that, I
- [39:48]
Interviewer
mean even, I think even light speed communication would still be like a few minutes.
- [39:52]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think certainly, I mean that area is one to improve. I don't think it's like a, you know, if we can't get that working, I don't think it's going to completely, you know, make it to where the mission is impossible. I think we've learned to adapt with like the timelines that we currently have. But yeah, it certainly doesn't make it easy and if there's any room to improve there. But kind of the, the big, I guess back and forth within especially my field is also the idea of planetary protection. Right. Because we want to send humans to really uncover a lot of these things that we want to learn about Mars and maybe the possibility of past life. But then you also, I guess, run into the potential of contamination and you don't want to potentially find something that we think was past life on Mars,
- [40:37]
Interviewer
but then it's like bring it back here.
- [40:38]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Well, not even that, but even just we think we found life on Mars, but just someone touched a rock and it's like our own organisms. And so it's like very much a, an element of like keeping things separate and even like the rope, like all of the robotic technology that we've sent to the planet, I mean there's assumptions that there's been, you know, we can only get things so sterile and we hope that things are as sterilized as possible. But there's also the potential of like, did we send anything on any of these rovers? And so it's just a very much keeping those things separate. So that way if you make the grand claim that you found, you know, life on Mars, it's serious and not just something that happened to get sent there.
- [41:17]
Interviewer
Yeah, totally. I would be more afraid of like those astronauts bringing some crazy shit back here.
- [41:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Well, it's so funny because I certainly think that Mars will kind of be in that way almost like the progression of what happened when astronauts first went to the moon. You know, when astronauts came back from those lunar missions, they were quarantined for like 20 something days because they didn't know if there was like a moon virus or like a moon bug or, you know, we had no idea what. But you know, especially even like scientifically, like we just didn't really know much about, about those environments. And so they were like quarantined for so many days post the mission. And now it's funny because, you know, we're like, okay, yeah, they're fine to go to the moon. There's.
- [42:00]
Interviewer
Have you, have you. I know you're like a, you're a legit person. Scientist, scholar. Have you ever paid attention to like the crazy moon stuff, like the history, like, like the interviews they did and like paid attention to some of like the fringe kind of theories that people go out there with like all the occult cult ties to those people and like the, the theories of maybe they Faked it. Maybe they filmed it. Like, look at the post, the press conference, post interview. They look like they saw a ghost, like.
- [42:26]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [42:27]
Interviewer
Weird stuff. Have you paid attention to that stuff? Gone down those rabbit holes or. No?
- [42:30]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, I guess I've. I've always been, I guess, combated. Anytime you have an interest in space, I think you get combated with, you know, with the moon landing not being real is probably the. The most common. Yeah, I mean, I think that. But for me, especially with like the moon landings, I think one of the things that we. We have on the moon that's the most concrete is like one of the prisms that the Apollo missions left, so.
- [42:56]
Interviewer
Prisms?
- [42:56]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, like the mirrors? Yeah, like a mirror. So one of the missions had one of those. You can. And there's even been, like, universities to like, do the test where you can, like, shoot a laser at the prism and like, you'll see it bounce back because we know the location of that mission. So I think that there's so much to combat and I think, you know, the hard.
- [43:13]
Interviewer
The argument there is, couldn't you get that there with a. With a robot?
- [43:16]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes. Yeah, certainly. I think. I think that one of the difficult parts about the space industry and especially kind of, I guess defending a lot of the things that happen in the space industry is it's also hard to. There's so much, I guess, scientific complexity to it that doesn't always translate down to the general public, public. And I think that that is, you know, it's a big challenge. But, you know, I think that that's why it is so important to talk about the space industry and kind of really explain a lot of what's going on and kind of the efforts, because, you know, you hear even, you know, I was even thinking about it with like, the NASA live stream of like, the Artemis mission. I mean, they certainly try, but I mean, even listening to live stream, I'm sure so many people are like, what are they saying? You know, like, if you're not. If you're not really in tune with a lot of the complexities, and then it's hard to, I guess, keep up with, like, what even is going on.
- [44:10]
Interviewer
That's why I love talking to people like you, because, like, you have a foot in both worlds. And I often think about it, like, the people who are, like, living and eating and breathing in this world of, for this example, like in NASA or like, working on rockets and shit all day, who don't pay attention to YouTube or podcasts or anything like that you can see how it could be two separate parallel universes of information. Right. Like, they don't pay attention to anything that these people are talking about on the Internet. And the Internet, there's like a complete and total disconnect.
- [44:44]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right.
- [44:44]
Interviewer
So someone like, you can kind of like have a foot in both worlds, be like, okay, you can kind of connect some dots here or see where there's stuff missing.
- [44:50]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. And I, and I think that's a big challenge. I mean, as I was saying, like, in the importance of bringing, you know, that to the general public. Right. There's no point in doing science and if we're not all learning from it. Right. That's the whole goal of scientific endeavors and especially, like, even coming now from like a research standpoint. I mean, digesting a research paper is not for the week and not for, you know, they're all so, so focused on like, their very specific research topic. And so sometimes it's, it's, you know, an onion. You have to get through these layers.
- [45:19]
Interviewer
It's compartmentalized.
- [45:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. You have to get through these layers to really understand what's happening. And I think that the. That's, that's really important, you know, to be able to take what we're learning and then bring it down to, to a level that really is understood very commonly.
- [45:32]
Interviewer
Right. Did you see these, these UFO files that just came out and they dropped? The thing about the Apollo 17 mission where they saw the UFOs?
- [45:43]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I, I have not had, I guess too much time since like a lot of this has. Has like fully dropped because I think I saw there's like 420 and 60 something files or something. Yeah, there's, there's a lot.
- [45:54]
Interviewer
The Apollo stuff is crazy.
- [45:55]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think I'm, I'm very much looking forward to seeing some of this. I mean, I think there's, you know, you always have to remember that NASA is a government agency, of course. And so I think that there's no surprise that there's elements to a lot of the missions that maybe we don't get to see or maybe aren't as public knowledge. But, you know, I think that that's a. Almost anything governmental and every government does that. Yeah, you almost have to expect that when you're looking at NASA, who is a government agency. We are learning a lot, but obviously I'm sure there's plenty more that we don't. But, yeah, I'm excited to.
- [46:33]
Interviewer
What are these? The photos? This is one of the photos. Oh, CBS News. Okay. Okay. So this is they're publishing the photo from the actual files that the government dropped.
- [46:42]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right.
- [46:42]
Interviewer
Saying that in 1972, during the Apollo 17, that was the last mission. Right? So. So yeah, the Apollo 17 mission shows three dots in a triangular formation in lower right quadrants of the lunar sky that is clearly visible upon magnification of the image. The Defense Department said in the caption of the image, the Pentagon said that there is no consensus about the nature of the anomaly. But the guys, the astronauts were saying that it looked like the fourth of July outside the window. They said that these things were like jagged, zooming all around, like fireworks in the sky. Yeah, it's insane. And this stuff is like. Because there's always been that one of the conspiracies about the moon is that they went there and they saw. They saw UFOs or aliens or whatever and told them not to come back. And like, that was. I think they said that Buzz Holdren said that at one point. But then people thought that they were. He was being taken out of contact. But like, this stuff now that they're, the government's like confirming it is kind of crazy.
- [47:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, it is certainly interesting. I mean, I'm. Like I said I'm very, I'm very interested to kind of read, you know, a lot more because, I mean, it's funny because they're. It's. It's so difficult because it's almost a back and forth. I mean, obviously, I guess with these. They've been kind of looking at this material for, you know, since the 70s, but with, with space travel, since there are so many unknowns. I remember this story from one of the early, one of the early missions. I'm trying to remember. It may have been like a Gemini mission. So this was like when they would go to space, but, you know, they weren't necessarily going anywhere. They were just learning about, you know, their really early missions. And one of the things was one of the astronauts made like a comment and was like, it looks like there's fireflies out there. Like, we're, we're getting like stuff outside the window. Like we don't know what it is. We think it's like fireflies. Like it kind of looks like that. And then they like later figured out it was like the like, tank, like dumping the urine, like out. And they were. And as it was like hitting the vacuum space, that's what they were seeing. And so it's so funny because it's like you have two extremes, right? You have one extreme where it's like literally the most simple solution to the issue. And then you have like the other extreme, which is like aliens coming for you. So it's just, it's so funny because I think it's. It's always such. Either one or the other. Right. It's always hard to find, like, I think the balance in a lot of these things.
- [49:05]
Interviewer
But that's like the thing about, like, how this stuff evolves over time is like six years ago you'd get laughed out of a room for talking about UFOs, and now, like the government's literally saying they're real within like three week time span. So you can't write those, you can't write that stuff off anymore. That's stuff like legit science now.
- [49:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, I would say that it's always been interesting to me that, you know, the idea of aliens has ever been almost like a fully laughing matter, just because, I mean, I think for me, I've always believed that there has to be something somewhere. Right. The universe is just so vast. And so it's been interesting to kind of see that progression because, you know, I think the concept of, you know, whether they're here or not or whatever else. Sure. But the concept that there ever has been aliens, I think should certainly be something that is pretty agreed upon that the universe is just so big. That would be so crazy to think that we're the only ones out there.
- [50:00]
Interviewer
Yeah, totally. What is this, Steve? Oh, this is Jesse Michaels. Okay, so I don't know if you're familiar with Jesse Michaels. He's my friend who has a podcast and he covers like the whole history of NASA. He's like a super nerd historian on all of this stuff. He's freaking incredible. And he knows more about like the history of the space program and rocket propulsion than anyone I've ever met. And he goes around the world interviewing these people and he's interviewed like heads of the different NASA's of different countries all over the world. And this guy was a Japanese guy who was ahead of one of the Japanese space programs, I think. And he's also a NASA historian and he was close to Eugene Cernan, who was on Apollo 17. So here we go. There's headphones. We can listen to this clip.
- [50:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Okay.
- [50:50]
Interviewer
And I think there's captions on us, so you're gonna have to read captions. Okay, Go ahead. Buzz Aldrin. Do you think that we went to the moon in 1969? And then do you think there's anything we don't understand about that story? Did they see UFOs along the way? Because he says they saw a UFO. I'm sure. Why? Why are you sure? Says he knew captain eugene cernan. Says, why did Apollo end with Apollo 17? They were planning 18 and 19. I want to know the real reason they stopped at 17. The answer was, they told me never to come back. Really? It was sent directly to my brain. Never come back again. And were any reasons for not coming back again that they cited, I beg you, save humanity on Earth. I was told not to get in their way. Why? They told us not to interfere with their activities. So do you think the extraterrestrials were using the moon as a way to research the Earth? Oh, God. He believes the moon was artificially created. Anyways, crazy story.
- [52:58]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [52:59]
Interviewer
From a guy who was friends with Eugene cernan on Apollo 17.
- [53:03]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
You know, and I think there's also so many. So many factors. I mean, a lot of ending the Apollo program, too.
- [53:12]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Certainly came to a big funding issue.
- [53:15]
Interviewer
Yeah, totally.
- [53:16]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Because, I mean, that's another big factor that you have to consider with the space industry. It's like, well, why don't we do this and why don't we do that? I mean. I mean, even just looking at it financially, it's insane. I mean, during the Apollo program, NASA had 4% of the government budget, and now it has half of 1%. And so it's like, you know, even just from a money standpoint, it's like, yeah, if we had 4% of the. Of the. Of the government budget, there probably could be a lot of advancements and a lot more happening with, like, deep space. So I think there's. There's. There's definitely a balance to it in, you know, coming from government funding as well.
- [53:52]
Interviewer
Yeah. And also, you know, the context back then, during this, the whole space race is we were just trying to, like, flex and prove we could get humans there first. It was more of just, like, theatrics.
- [54:03]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [54:03]
Interviewer
Like, there was no. There's no real. There's no real logical reason you would want to put humans there. Like, it's not safe. It's not efficient. Like, it's better to have robots there doing that stuff because they can be more efficient. They can do just as good of a job as a human. I mean. I mean, we have hands with fingers on them, and, like, we're. We're not great for those environments. And it's also, like, really not safe. So, like, why just. Why do it? Why do it? Again, there's really no reason other than the fact to prove that we could actually do it. It would be much more efficient to do it with robots.
- [54:34]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean certainly the Apollo program and during that Apollo stage was solely coming from the space race standpoint. I mean that was every step of the way from literally the first satellite in space was a space race. I mean it was not even just the human aspect of it. It was who can send the first satellite, who can send the first animal, who can send the first man who can send like it was, every single stage was a space race. And a lot of it came from like fear too. I mean if you go back to like Sputnik that Russia had sent up, it was a fear that all Sputnik did was beep. But we didn't know that. And so it was coming from a place of fear is like, oh well, we also have to be at that point. So there was just so much fear surrounding it which like perpetuated this full like space race that, that came to the point of going all the way to the moon.
- [55:28]
Interviewer
Yeah. Going back to the, the micro, microbes and the bacteria and stuff on Mars. Those rovers that are on the surface of Mars, how, how deep do they dig and excavate?
- [55:39]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, not deep. And that's kind of a big challenge when it comes to looking for life on Mars. So you have to almost consider having a life or a search for life focused mission is not going to be very possible at this point just because, you know, we don't actually know that there's life. So it's almost like jumping the gun. And so that's why with Mars, a lot of these rovers, their goal is to study the planet geologically. So it's just there to look at the minerals, what's there, have a better understand understanding and then from there maybe we can progress to like, oh well this is, we didn't even know it was possible to have life or if there would be any type of environment capable of supporting life. So that's why a lot of these rovers, their main objective is to study geologically. And so they're going maybe an inch down whenever they make these samples. So they have some low core samples, an inch, maybe a couple inches, but it's really not going very far. But that's certainly a big challenge from like the astrobiological standpoint because if you are looking for life, we certainly think that our best place to look on Mars is the deep subsurface.
- [56:45]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [56:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so in order to really have a very good understanding of that possibility, you would almost need More of like a drill like type of mission that's actually exploring the subsurface, but we just aren't quite at a point yet. And then also the money of a life, you know, focused mission is probably going to be pretty challenging to get that, like, fully funded. So it almost a lot of missions that do have an astrobiology aspect to it. It's almost in tandem. So, so your big missions right now within the world of astrobiology is going to be they're looking at Europa and they're looking at Titan. Are the two big ones where we think. So that's where they're currently looking at almost like the highest possibility of finding some kind of life. So Europa Clipper is the mission that's going to Europa, which is a moon of Jupiter. And that one kind of has one of the biggest areas of interest because we think it has a subsurface ocean. Ocean. So it is, you know, we think it's a liquid subsurface ocean. It's just covered with like a sheet of ice on the exterior. So Europa Clipper is going to study a little bit more about the. The moon itself. But then there's like, an aspect of it that kind of dips a little bit more into astrobiology and seeing the potential. Because the first step isn't just looking for life itself. It's like, okay, is there liquid water? Is there carbon? Is there oxygen? Is there things that we think are important to life and then kind of going from there? And then Titan is a similar story. That one, that one hasn't launched yet, but it's called Dragonfly. And that mission is going to Titan, which is a moon of Saturn. And it doesn't have liquid water, but what it does have is liquid methane and ethane. So we think that there is. So it has lakes and it has these, like, liquid lakes. And so anytime that there is like, liquid, that is very interesting. So you would probably find a type of life that would be very different to what we know of as life, because obviously it's in a. A very different environment, you know, living in liquid methan. But. But there is also that area of interest that has the possibility of life being different. But again, that mission's going to really study more about Titan. There's just like that little snippet of like, for, is there a possibility of some sort of microbial life that could survive in that environment? So astrobiology's kind of tacked on to kind of some of these missions as like a sub area of research. But it's certainly not like the main focus of them.
- [59:09]
Interviewer
Don't they also speculate that there could be life living in the rings of Saturn?
- [59:14]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, I think that.
- [59:16]
Interviewer
Have you heard that or am I crazy?
- [59:18]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised just because there certainly is. I mean, especially once you bring in the microbe aspect of it. They're so much more resilient and they're so much more adaptable that you really can explore so many different areas. I mean, there's also ideas of, like, is there life in Venus's atmosphere? Is there a possibility? You know, so there's almost. You can take so many different environments. But, you know, we. We're slowly learning more about these places. And I mean, even, you know, talking about, you know, like, Saturn or even some of the moons out in the. And, you know, of Jupiter and Saturn and out in the deep solar system, we've had so few things even fly by them that it's crazy. You know, we've had like, a few things fly by. Jupiter had Juno, which was really the main mission to say, Juno to study Jupiter. And then Saturn had Cassini, which is really our one main satellite that went and studied, Studied Saturn. And then New Horizon went to Pluto. So it passed by those. But really there's so little data. And so that's why some of these upcoming missions are also really important for actually looking at some of these possibilities.
- [60:24]
Interviewer
And what was that asteroid they just found some stuff on?
- [60:27]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [60:28]
Interviewer
Was it Bennu?
- [60:29]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. Yeah. So that. That was really cool because that was crazy. We collected or basically with that mission was super awesome because they went to the asteroid, collected a sample from it, and then brought that sample back to Earth. And so that was really something that is super fascinating because we have such little samples from places. The only other place other than that asteroid that we have a true sample from is the moon, because astronauts were able to bring something back. And so that's why even talking about the conversation of Mars is really difficult, because we don't have a sample from Mars. We don't have something to truly study. There's also meteorites, but those have been, like, altered, you know, by going through Earth's atmosphere. And so they can't be a true reflection of what's on Mars. And so we don't have an actual true sample. Which is why studying Mars can be difficult because you're really trying to use, you know, simulation material, you know, regolith, which is like a simulation of what we think Mars soil is like. We know some of the materials there to study, but But. But really, you're not getting a full picture unless you have a direct sample from the planet.
- [61:33]
Interviewer
Steve, what was the. What was the actual thing they found on that. On that Bennu asteroid? It was like a. Do you remember? Oh, no, but I can find it. It was like a. A protein maybe, or.
- [61:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, yeah, that one surprised me. I mean, they found, like, a lot of, like, a lot of carbon based, like. Or it may have been organic material, which I know is hard to find.
- [61:58]
Interviewer
Yeah. We had this guy on here who was talking about it, and I remember it, like, blowing my mind. Like, how did they freaking land that thing on the asteroid, pick up a sample, and then take off and come back? So crazy. That thing must have been going fast.
- [62:15]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It was really cool. Yeah, I actually. So this, like, astrobiology conference that I go to, we had, like, a panel of some people from the project come and, like, talk about. About, like, the sample and the challenge of getting in and even some of, like, the prototyping and figuring out how to, like, collect the sample and certainly very interesting amino acids.
- [62:36]
Interviewer
Amino acids. That's what it was. That was the Osiris Rex mission.
- [62:40]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes.
- [62:41]
Interviewer
So the fundamental building blocks of proteins, the amino acids. That's a big deal.
- [62:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, it certainly is. I mean, I think what's so crazy to think about is that there's actually such an abundant amount of material in space.
- [62:53]
Interviewer
Space, yeah.
- [62:54]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And, you know, even, like, oxygen, we're like, we need oxygen. Well, oxygen's everywhere, right? Like, all this stuff is everywhere. Like, you can find a lot of these things. It's just. Is it in that perfect environment, perfect storm, to then turn into life? You know, and a lot of those materials are there, and a lot of the simple building blocks are there out in the universe, and they're pretty abundant. But it's just, you know, does it all come together and actually forming life?
- [63:21]
Interviewer
Right. And then, like, when going back to Mars, like, when you determine. How do you determine, like, which parts, that if people were to go there, where they would stay? Like, first of all, where do we have the rovers? Is there a specific part we have the rovers at?
- [63:35]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So I know for sure Curiosity is in Gale Crater. And that was so, really, a lot of the target sites currently for the rovers have been looking at the potential of water on Mars. So they've been looking at places that look like it used to have water. And that's been a lot of target sites is like, you know, that looks like it could have been a river delta. Let's go send a rover there to See if those materials are, you know, similar to something you would see in a river delta here on Earth. And so it's a lot of those, like, comparison studies. So that's been a big target of what they've been looking at. Yeah, I mean, for looking at life, you know, there certainly are regions that we think have, like, I guess a higher probability of, like, where life could have formed, especially in Mars's past. And that's really just looking at. At, you know, looking back at the conditions that. That we think Mars had, where would have, like, the best. Best options. So, yeah.
- [64:27]
Interviewer
Elon said he wanted to build a city in Arcadia.
- [64:31]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes.
- [64:32]
Interviewer
Why would that. Why would Arcadia be good? I don't know anything about that location.
- [64:36]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I know. So what. From what I've, like, recently been reading, I do know one of the biggest pushes right now for life is Acidalia Planitia, I think, is the area on Mars that they think, you know, based on kind of the history of Mars would have the most potential. But it's also kind of a twofold with human landing. So as I mentioned, with, you know, the potential of, like, you contaminating the surface, we almost have these, like, special regions that we think have, like, higher potential. And it's like, do we send the humans directly there or. Yes, you're both right. Yeah.
- [65:11]
Interviewer
Arcadia Plantation. Go back to the. Go to the picture down there so we can see. So is it, like, less mountainous or what's so great about this area?
- [65:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
There certainly is different.
- [65:24]
Interviewer
Okay. Flat. Would it go out? Scroll up a little tiny bit. Flatland, frozen water, decent sun and rich history. Maybe the place where humans make their second home. Wow.
- [65:35]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, certainly, I think also staying somewhat near the. Obviously the e. The equator is going to be more warmer than, like, the poles. And so. But I do know that the northern hemisphere in general has been a big area of interest for a lot of these places, but it also just really depends on, like, the actual scientific goals of that human mission, you know, and so one human mission, I mean, similar to, like, what happened with the moon, they didn't all go land in the same spot. Right, right. And so it can also be a balance there of like, oh, we want to learn about xyz, let's send them here. We want to go learn about this other thing. Let's send them and things there. And I know that, I mean, even with, like, the next missions to the moon, they're currently, like, scouting potential, like, landing sites for Artemis 4.
- [66:21]
Interviewer
Oh, really? I heard they wanted to do it near the poles.
- [66:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I've heard definitely some ideas. I don't know if it's like, fully selected yet, but yeah, I think it's certainly going to be a bit different than some of the, like, previous landing sites that we've seen before.
- [66:36]
Interviewer
And then the other thing about Mars is like, like, it's got to be like, like the amount, not only the radiation that you get there has to be really bad, but I'm sure it's going to be a huge lack of like, sunlight you're getting. So we would have to have a way to like, get. Obviously we evolved here over however long to receive. You know, we're b. It's not just the gravity, but it's also like the chemical makeup, the oxygen, the. The amount of light that we get is a huge part of it, which like, fuels our mitochondria, which fuels everything in our bodies. And like, if we're not getting the right amount of sunlight or UV light, that's going to be really detrimental, compounding with the radiation and all that. So like, it's, you know, there's gonna, I'm sure, like, the, the medical side of this stuff is going to be really difficult to deal with.
- [67:27]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, I will say one of the benefits of looking at Mars and you know, sometimes, you know, when looking at Mars really is the only kind of next place that we can go to as far as like, prox to us. And it makes the most sense. But another benefit is Mars is realistically kind of similar to Earth in a lot of ways. Right. Like, it's a little bit smaller than Earth. I mean, the gravity is one third, which, you know, it's less. But certainly that's, that's something. I mean, having astronauts live in microgravity for a year, certainly something that's been like research for a while of those. Those effects to your body.
- [68:03]
Interviewer
Yeah. Aren't there really big, like, hormonal effects?
- [68:06]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
There's also kind of. One of the best things that we have was the twin stuff study that they did, the Kelly twins, where one was in space for a year. And I mean, there's. There's a lot of things that I think are still being learned about of like, the true effects of that. I mean, obviously one of the big ones is like, bone density and like, you know, actually being physically strong because you're not using your, your bones and your muscles nearly as much.
- [68:29]
Interviewer
Right.
- [68:30]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Which is why, like, exercise is so important and like, really pushed. So like, astronauts will exercise every single day. Day in order to try to stay as strong as possible in those environments.
- [68:40]
Interviewer
Yeah. One of the twins came back shorter, I think.
- [68:42]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. And I mean, it's just whenever you're. You're on Earth, right, You're constantly fighting gravity. You don't feel like you're working out right now, but you are. Right. Your muscles and your bones are fighting against gravity. And so anything that you do, they're constantly working. And when you get put in that space environment, they're no longer doing that. And so it's figuring out ways, you know, how can we exercise and still use those muscles. Muscles to still not maintain what it's like on Earth, but still maintain it a little bit better. A day on Mars is like 24 hours and 30 minutes. So the days are a little bit longer.
- [69:14]
Interviewer
Only 30 minutes longer.
- [69:16]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Their actual days are very similar to Earth, so there's a lot of similarities.
- [69:20]
Interviewer
So you get a similar circadian rhythm.
- [69:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, it's really not too big of a leap. Which is another kind of benefit with Mars is that there are differences, of course, in living on Mars, but it wouldn't necessarily be the biggest extreme that. That we could see.
- [69:35]
Interviewer
Yeah. I'd be curious. I mean, it's. How many miles. How many miles away is Mars?
- [69:39]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Oh, gosh.
- [69:40]
Interviewer
How many millions of miles? It's a million miles. More than a million. Steve, that's a quick Google search for you, buddy.
- [69:46]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I have no idea. Actually, off the top of my head, the mile. The miles of it. I know it on the scale of,
- [69:50]
Interviewer
like, football fields, It's a thousand times the moon. Right. You know it in football fields.
- [69:55]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. Like, if the. If like, the moon or if the Earth was basketball, It'd be like 300 football fields. Fields.
- [70:00]
Interviewer
Oh, wow.
- [70:01]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [70:02]
Interviewer
That's crazy.
- [70:03]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
140 million.
- [70:04]
Interviewer
That sounds 140 million miles.
- [70:06]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, that's the other thing. There's always, like, those fluctuations.
- [70:09]
Interviewer
Yeah, but. Right. So the distance is constantly changing as both planets orbit the sun, ranging from a minimum of 33 million miles. Wow, that's a huge difference.
- [70:24]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [70:25]
Interviewer
And maximum 250 million miles.
- [70:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And that's why the trajectories are so important. Right. You certainly don't want to launch when you have 250 million miles to go across.
- [70:39]
Interviewer
Yeah, that would suck.
- [70:40]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I think that's almost one of the craziest things about the space industry as a whole is people not grasping really how far things are. I mean, even with the moon. Right. You look up at the night sky and you're like, the moon's right there, but it takes multiple days to get to the Moon even just going, going somewhere, like our closest possible place to go is still far away.
- [71:00]
Interviewer
Yeah, totally. And then what about like the time dilation stuff? Like an interstellar. When they're at that planet and like every minute here is 10 years on Earth.
- [71:07]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that was that change at all. That would certainly be a case for like, deeper space travel. So yeah, within like the scale that we're traveling to, like the moon and Mars and that sort of thing, I would like, consider a lot of those things more around relevant.
- [71:22]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's more like in a different star system.
- [71:25]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right. Like, if you're going like outside of our solar system, I think it would be like something to, to consider, but like within our solar system. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't consider it like a big issue.
- [71:37]
Interviewer
And then like terraforming Mars, do we have to detonate nukes on the, on the poles? Or do you do like, can you put like some big mirrors in orbit to like heat it up or like.
- [71:46]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, you know, the idea of terraforming has been like, talked about for so long and it really is like a question of, you know, are all of these ideas even possible? But yeah, I mean, it's, it's crazy because like, yeah, probably the best solution to it would be to nuke the whole planet, which is just insane. Like, why is that even like a conversation? But yeah, that would probably be like your, your main way of, of being able to actually heat up an entire planet because again, you know, the scale that you're talking about and terraforming an entire planet, I mean, Mars is smaller than Earth, but it's still a big planet, you know, and so, so to fully change the, the entire dynamic of the planet, I mean, that is just like such a challenge. And of course, you know, then it becomes like, is that even something that we want to be doing? Like, who, who's to say that we can just go and, and go crazy and start doing stuff like that?
- [72:39]
Interviewer
And so the aliens are getting mad that we have nuclear weapons on Earth. Imagine what they're gonna do when we start nuking Mars. Yeah, I certainly get a full invasion.
- [72:48]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I certainly, I don't know if, if that route to, to terraforming is holistic approach. And you know, I think that that's a challenge with even the conversation of terraforming. You know, even if you were to choose that endeavor and humans were to do that, it would still take, you know, so long to like, for everything to slowly come back to like a normal state. And it's such a, such a long, long process and like, you know, fully transforming a planet into something else. And you know, then you'd have like even more radiation on the planet. I mean it would sounds just like potentially a disaster. So.
- [73:26]
Interviewer
Anybody have any better ideas?
- [73:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Honestly, I don't think so at the moment. I think like the full idea of terraforming is so theoretical right now that Yeah, I think if there someone were to come up with a better idea, I think any other idea would be, would be better. So. Yeah, well, we'll see.
- [73:45]
Interviewer
Well, you have to figure out a way to melt the ice, right?
- [73:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean the biggest, yeah, the biggest case is going to be, you know, warming up the planet. I mean that's like you're going, your task number one is going to be warming up the planet. A big goal is you'd want to start forming like a thicker atmosphere. Right. Because Mars's atmosphere is so thin. And so let's say you went to Mars right now and you just started pumping, you had all these like things pumping oxygen or whatever. That oxygen is just going to leave the planet. You're not actually like it's not insulated in a way to kind of hold a lot of those gases in. And so the big goal is going to be, you know, you're going to need like an oxygen active magnetosphere. You're going to need like an atmosphere that's really holding a lot of that stuff in to start forming a planet. And that's, those are, are the challenges. And I mean again, even just like the timeline of terraforming, even with crazy ideas, it's just such a long period of time. So yeah, it's certainly a far fetched
- [74:40]
Interviewer
idea from all, from everything you're saying. It does sound like we're, it's it so far, far all of these ideas are very theoretical and not being tested right. As much as we think. So. Yeah, just based on that alone, it's like are you, are you optimistic? Like if you were to gamble on it, do you think that we would make it there in our lifetimes to Mars?
- [75:05]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I think it is 100% possible in our lifetime really that we're gonna send humans to Mars? Yeah, I don't, I don't think that, that you know, a lot of what the ideas of terraforming, a lot of that is I guess more so down the line of like long term like sending people to like stay on Mars. Perhaps like we'd want Mars to be more like Earth if you know, you were like living there for Long periods of time.
- [75:29]
Interviewer
That seems kind of.
- [75:30]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, that, I think, is outside of our lifetime. I don't think we're going to be, like, having Mars as, like, a second place to live and like a second Earth within our lifetime. I don't think that's necessarily possible, but I think the initial missions there and kind of maybe even starting some of the groundwork of even understanding how to stay on Mars, I think it's certainly possible to see a human mission to Mars within the lifetime.
- [75:52]
Interviewer
How close is Venus to us?
- [75:55]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Venus is pretty close.
- [75:56]
Interviewer
It's the next one, Right?
- [75:58]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right.
- [75:58]
Interviewer
But it's closer to the Sun.
- [75:59]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right. So if you look, Venus on either side of us is Venus and Mars. And Venus is much more of, like, a similar size to Earth. The issue with Venus is it's the hottest planet in our solar system, and it is a.
- [76:12]
Interviewer
Basically, it's hotter than the one that's closer to the Sun.
- [76:15]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes. So there's Mercury, which is the closest, but Venus is hotter. It has a extremely thick atmosphere. And so it has a ton of greenhouse gases that are constantly heating up the planet. And it's also still, like, we think, volcanically active. And so there is a lot of heat. So it's certainly hotter than Mercury even though it's technically further from the sun because of how thick the atmosphere is. And even our understanding of Venus is pretty minimal because we've had or we've tried to land. You know, multiple countries have sent things to Venus to try to attempt to land on it, and we get, like, one image and then it's just burned to a crisp. And yeah, we're not able to actually get a whole lot. So we know pretty minimal. It's also very high pressure, which is really challenging when it comes to technology and landing there. And so that's why Mars is certainly the, the direction to go. Just because of how, like, dangerous Venus is in terms of.
- [77:15]
Interviewer
Well, I mean, if, if, if Mars was at one point like Earth and in that sort of Goldilocks zone, then reason would suggest that Venus will one day be in that same sort of zone that Earth is in now, Right?
- [77:31]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. You know, there is, there is an idea of, you know, like, how the, the planets are, like, moving over time. And that's, that's something that scientists are kind of learning about by looking at other solar systems. Right. We can understand a lot more about how our solar system is eventually going to look by looking at solar systems that are older than ours. And, like, what are they currently doing? And so that's a Lot of really trying to compare what we know about our current solar system and then kind of having that as comparison to, to other places. So looking at places with like similar suns to, to our sun, seeing how those solar systems are evolving, and then we can kind of start making assumptions. Of course there's the overarching. You know, we know our sun's not going to last forever. We know Earth is not going to last forever. You know, you can't have, have a sun that's just never going to die. It's eventually going to run out of fuel and again, very long, long periods of time here. But you know, we know that the sun can't just burn forever. And so that's really where a lot of these ideas of, you know, living on Mars or terraforming or kind of pushing towards deep space come from is because we know Earth is, isn't going to be a place that humans can live forever and ever and ever and ever. You know, our solar system will reach a point where, you know, the sun just won't be able to, to have fuel anymore and supply that heat. And without any heat, you know, the, the Earth isn't going to be very habitable anymore. And so that's why there is ideas of space travel being so important is like how do we get to a point, you know, over, you know, the next millions and millions of years to where we're at a point that we can survive something like that or like
- [79:04]
Interviewer
develop a space platform to where we don't have to rely on a plan planet.
- [79:08]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, of course, I mean then you start talking of course in like sci fi and like, you know, all the ideas that come from that. But that's really where all of it comes from. Right. Because we know for sure that our solar system isn't like sustainable forever. And so it's, it's that idea of like, if humans were to continue past that, there's going to have to be some sort of solution, whether it's moving somewhere else, living somewhere else, into like a younger solar system or you know, like you said, just like living, living in space fully.
- [79:35]
Interviewer
Right. And it's interesting, like the more that technology advances here, the more we learn about what's happening out there. Like with one of those latest satellite or telescopes.
- [79:48]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. The James Webb.
- [79:50]
Interviewer
Was it the James Webb or was it, I don't remember which one, the one that, that discovered the interstellar objects that were coming through.
- [79:56]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's James Webb. Yeah. James Webb.
- [79:58]
Interviewer
Is it James Webb?
- [79:58]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It's looking deeper than. Or like, obviously like again, when you look into space, you're kind of looking into the past. And so it's. James Webb has like looked further than anything else we've had.
- [80:08]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [80:09]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And it's getting some of those like early images.
- [80:12]
Interviewer
Right.
- [80:12]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Because we're kind of almost like looking into the past and looking into kind of the beginnings of the universe.
- [80:17]
Interviewer
Because it's like, it's crazy that the first interstellar object that we've discovered or imaged was in 2019, I think.
- [80:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Oh, yeah, yeah. So you're talking. Yeah, okay, totally. I get what you're saying now. Yeah. So you're talking about probably Hubble was kind of our, our initial telescope that we can. A lot about that. And then our current one, well, James Webb was kind of the next iteration of, of Hubble. So it's newer technology and it's able to like, look further and look with like crisper images. So we're getting much better images of like the early, early universe.
- [80:45]
Interviewer
Yeah. And so what, what was the name of the telescope that discovered the. The amuamua, I think it was, or the Three Eyes by the third one, the ATLAS one. It makes you wonder once we start getting like crazy super sophisticated satellites, you know, because this stuff is advancing at an incredible rate. So like we've only seen three now. But imagine when we're able to get telescopes that are like 10 times more advanced than our current most powerful ones. We're going to see these things everywhere and realize that we're constantly being bombarded by all these crazy things that were missing before.
- [81:24]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean we're, it was named
- [81:26]
Interviewer
after the, the telescope as atlas. Oh, it's called the ATLAS Telescope. NASA funded Atlas Asteroid.
- [81:33]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Okay. So yeah, okay, you're talking about like a, a ground based system.
- [81:36]
Interviewer
So it's called the Asteroid Terrestrial Impact Last Alert System. That's a comforting name. Located in Rio Hu Her Hurado. Chile. Oh, interesting. Oh, I remember him saying it was a Chile.
- [81:51]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
This is like a ground based system. And then Hubble and James Webb are in space.
- [81:56]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [81:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And James Webb, one of the cool things about it, it's like at a, what's called like a Lagrange Point. So where it's, it's basically like where the gravities equal out a bit. So there's like certain points in our solar system that almost like the gravity's balance, like you think of like, you know, how Earth has its gravity that orbits the moon and then obviously the sun has more gravity. So we orbit the sun. And so we kind of have those, like, balance out. So it's kind of further out in, like, away from Earth than a lot of, like, other systems that we have. So, like, Hubble didn't necessarily go that far, but James Webb is kind of at this, like, further point. Yeah, yeah. It's super cool because it's, it's not necessarily as, as like insulated by Earth and a lot of things. It's much further in space,
- [82:42]
Interviewer
isn't there? How many satellites do we have orbiting Mars? Oh, gosh, we have the Reconnaissance one, right? The Reconnaissance Orbiter.
- [82:51]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, and that one took a
- [82:53]
Interviewer
good photo of the Three Eye Atlas when it passed by it. I remember it got pretty close to there.
- [82:57]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, gosh, there probably has to be.
- [83:03]
Interviewer
That's one of the things. That's one of the things that freaks me out is like, the amount of satellites that we put into outer space. Like, we're littering space.
- [83:10]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [83:10]
Interviewer
Have you seen the Kessler Syndrome? Have you heard? I just learned about this the other day.
- [83:14]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I have.
- [83:14]
Interviewer
Where it's like insane. There's like thousands and thousands of objects where it's like a shotgun blast of stuff.
- [83:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right.
- [83:20]
Interviewer
That's just rotating our planet.
- [83:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. Space junk is quite literally one of the biggest and most concerning things I think, that we have in with the space industry. Because one thing that you don't want to. Humans don't want to get themselves into is trapping ourselves here.
- [83:38]
Interviewer
We're like so much junk we can't get out.
- [83:41]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Right. And I mean, even if you think about like the movie, like, Wall E, they like, go through this, like, wall of like, junk whenever they, like, leave the. And that's something that, that certainly is like a concern. You don't want it to get to this point where the irony. Yeah. You just trap yourselves here.
- [83:55]
Interviewer
Yeah. We're focused so much on getting off the Earth, we ended up creating our own prison.
- [84:00]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think space junk is, is like a really big issue and it's going to be interesting to see over the next few years if that's something that, that these government agencies that, you know, are putting a lot of this stuff into space, if that's something that becomes more of a priority to them or if it becomes more of like a, a commercial endeavor where like, someone has a system to, like, clean up space.
- [84:23]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [84:24]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
But it's certainly going to be interesting to see how that evolves because, I mean, from just what we've already done so far, there's so much space junk and it's even, you know, the idea of just things that no longer work. Right. You could have had a fully functioning satellite, but it's only going to have so long of a lifespan. Maybe it works for 10 years, maybe it works for 20 years, but it's going to reach a point where it's just dead. Yeah, yeah. Those satellites aren't going to last forever. And so you kind of hit a point where, you know, then it becomes junk, and then you run the risk of it hitting something else. And. And those things are tracked. But, you know, sometimes you can't track something that's like, a little piece of paint.
- [84:59]
Interviewer
Yeah. They're supposed to decommission them by, like, crashing them into the ocean. Right.
- [85:03]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Well, there's a lot of ideas about how to get rid of space junk. Really a big idea is, like, how we kind of push them back towards the atmosphere. And basically the. The junk would burn up in Earth's atmosphere.
- [85:16]
Interviewer
Oh, they would just burn off.
- [85:17]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So rather than, like, them fully, like, crashing into the ocean, it's kind of like using Earth's atmosphere as a way to. To. To burn up that material. But you need some sort of system that's going to knock it out of its current orbit and, like, towards Earth. And that's kind of the challenge is, you know, what's going to do that? Who's going to do that? Go around and kind of have this cleanup.
- [85:38]
Interviewer
Will that work with the International Space Station when they try to decommission that?
- [85:43]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, honestly, I. I don't know. I know that. You know. Yes. You know, with the idea of, like, decommissioning it, I know there is the idea of, like, deorbiting it. And with that, it could be, you know, parts of it gets burned up in the atmosphere, and then parts of it does, like, come all the way and, like, land in the ocean. Yeah, I don't know. I find out when they're supposed to
- [86:09]
Interviewer
decommission that thing or what are the plans with the International space decommission it 15 years ago. Were they really? And why didn't they kept it running? Can you find out, like, what are the plans for it?
- [86:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I know that originally, like, they were going to sell the International Space Station to Axiom, and then Axiom was going to take it over, and now Axiom wants to, which is a private company, and now they would rather basically build their own space station rather than, I think, taking over the current space station. But, I mean, the International Space Station is, like, the size of a football Field. So it is a.
- [86:41]
Interviewer
Is it really.
- [86:42]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It's very large. So it is a big thing to decommission. And yeah, I don't know, I have a lot of, I think, conflicting.
- [86:49]
Interviewer
Did they build it out there?
- [86:51]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So that was the point of the space shuttle program. So NASA had the space shuttle program. It built the International Space Station and it launched satellites, it launched Hubble.
- [87:00]
Interviewer
That was the point of it, to build the space station. Space station. I'm just learning this today. That's crazy.
- [87:04]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So, yeah, I thought I saw 2030 was the big year that they were looking at.
- [87:12]
Interviewer
Okay, so the end of 2030 is when they planted and did decommission it.
- [87:16]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. And so part of it is going to like burn up in the atmosphere, but obviously it probably won't be able to burn up an entire football sized piece of material. So some of that will certainly crash land. So kind of before the International Space Station and the space shuttle program, NASA had Skylab, which was like originally, I guess, some sort of space station. And that was originally trying to figure out how do you live in space? So after the moon, it was like, okay, now how do we live in space? And Skylab was kind of the initial, like a very small module about figuring out how to live in space. And astronauts would go up to Skylab, they would probably stay there for like a few months. And then once the idea of Skylab happened, it was like, okay, how do we create a more permanent version? And then that's when the idea of like building a full international space station came about. And then the space shuttle was a reusable vehicle that could go on multiple missions and kind of help in contributing and building to this, like, much larger space station that could be used for science. But yeah, I mean, there was 135 space shuttle missions. So, yeah, it was a massive, just massive program that did a lot of stuff. But yeah, it was through the space shuttle that we were able to have the International Space Station.
- [88:31]
Interviewer
Will we use reusable rockets to get to Mars when we decide to go there, or will we do expendable rockets?
- [88:37]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
You know, I think it's gonna be probably a mix of kind of what we're seeing currently with the Artemis mission, where, like, parts of it are reusable, but as a whole, the entire rocket isn't reusable.
- [88:49]
Interviewer
Right.
- [88:49]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
So I think that's kind of. I mean, even with the space Shuttle, it's considered NASA's most reusable rocket that it did, but still, the external tank was trashed every single Time and so that you had 135 of those that were built. So it's almost.
- [89:02]
Interviewer
Where did they all go?
- [89:04]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Those burned up in the atmosphere. Yeah. And so because that went that, that was still attached pretty high up, you know, they would, they wouldn't jettison that until they were almost like in space. And so that one would burn up in the atmosphere, whereas everything else was reused for that rocket. So I think, you know, it's difficult to have something, something that's you know, 100% reusable. So I think it's going to be like a combination for when we look at what's going to take people to Mars, where parts of it are reusable and parts of it are not. Especially if the idea is that you like launch from some vehicle and then dock on something else that takes you to Mars. I'm sure that almost like back and forth may be a reusable vehicle.
- [89:43]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, it does seem like such a better, like such a better idea to do it from the moon. If you could figure out how to get, how to build something on the moon where you could get all this stuff on these big rockets that could be, it would be much easier to have reusable rockets if you launched them from the moon and if you could get enough stuff to Mars where you could be self sustainable. Right. Like that's what that's the goal, right to be to make it sustainable, to stay there and not have to constantly have shipments coming all the time. You want to create factories there, you want to build the stuff you need there and use the, either the resources that are already there if we can find them or have enough. I mean you need probably like a million tons of stuff to like be there before you can actually have a sustainable place for people to live.
- [90:31]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, and I, I think a big idea too is like a lot of that would be sent beforehand. Like before you were to ever send a mission with humans on it, you're sending a lot of these like pre missions almost to have like a lot of that already landed on the surface. And then like once humans arrive, they have of this like stuff there. So like a habitat, for instance, you would like send that beforehand rather than like sending humans to go build, go like build a habitat for when like they first arrive. So a lot of that material would be like prior missions and like solar
- [91:01]
Interviewer
panels, you need probably a ton of solar panels, you know, satellites that are doing whatever, like maybe reflecting more sun back or like even if we can find like some natural resources there, like maybe Some like natural gas that could be frozen, that would, could like melt or, you know, there's got to be, there's got to be resources there that we could, we could tap into and utilize to, to do manufacturing.
- [91:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. And I think that a lot of that has already been learned about with the International Space Station. I mean, of course we do have some supply missions, you know, of course that goes to the International Space Station. But as a whole, I mean, it's had to be relatively self sustaining in a way just because those supply missions are so expensive. And so it's like even just to send like a gallon of water to the International Space Station is so expensive.
- [91:44]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [91:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so it's like it has to be in a way, to a degree self sustaining. And so even though that there are supply missions, there's so much like reusability that is important. And I think the International Space Station has been such a integral part about learning about living in space and, and like living for like long durations and sustainability within space. That's why I feel like I always have like such conflicting ideas about them getting rid of the International Space Station just because I think it's one one of our greatest human feats that we've been able to have a international work environment in space that has done so many scientific studies, has been able to teach us so much about living in space. And I mean, again, even just the sheer size of it, it's incredible that we like built something like that just orbiting around the Earth and it's such a incredible piece of technology.
- [92:35]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, what is still being like, is there any research currently being done there now? What sort of groundbreaking research can you do up there?
- [92:42]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so I mean they probably have missions that rotate to the National Space Station like every six months. I think, I think they just had the, I think it was really only a few weeks ago they had the new crew launch to the National Space Station. So there's constantly people up there, they're constantly working, learning about again, things that will be useful for going to the moon, going to Mars and learning how to grow like plants in space. They do a lot of research there. Working in microgravity, it kind of just depends on I guess what is currently like scientifically interesting. But, but yeah, there's always really something going on up there. And so that's why. And it's, you know, again, still an international endeavor. There's still, you know, people from multiple countries up on the International Space Station working. And yeah, it's, it's something I think is so easily forgotten. Like there's always people up there and it has been since, since the space station kind of got created.
- [93:35]
Interviewer
Yeah, What I really want to know is what the hell are those things on Sedona and those anomalies on the surface of Mars that we see? Like there's these shapes, these geometric, not geometric, but they're like perfectly square shapes. There's like something that looks like a pyramid there. There's like another thing that looks like a face. Like these anomalies are crazy and I wish they would send something there, some sort of a vehicle, a reconnaissance, something there to like look at that stuff and see what it is because damn, there's that one, that, that one anomaly looks so much like a pyramid and like some of them look man.
- [94:12]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, yeah, certainly. I think kind of the biggest thing with some of these like interesting features on the surface of Mars is really just like wanting to actually get something actually to it, to actually get better images and.
- [94:26]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. So how big would that thing be, Steve, that, that pyramid on Cydonia, the Rosetta stone? Do they have an idea of like what the size of it would be? Because like, if we know that life was here one time, or if we know at the very least that this planet was, was able to sustain life, you know, billions of years ago, who's to say that there wouldn't have been some sort of a civilization there that was technological or advanced in some way? You know, there's the, there's this hypothesis called the Solarian hypothesis that this guy Adam Frank came up with, which is basically like if we, if we wanted to figure out if there was, was a previous like industrial civilization on Earth like before our recorded history, how would we find out? Well, the hypothesis is like we, we wouldn't, we would have no evidence of that. There could be a completely like super hyper advanced industrial civilization living right here on Earth millions and millions of years ago and over time, you know, through like all the, the cycles of Earth and the catastrophes that have washed across Earth Earth and you know, just all that time we would have, we would have no, no clue. It would just, all that evidence would be gone. So what's to say that couldn't have happened here if life was hab, if this place was habitable for life back then. Okay, so this says the DNM pyramid, a prominent feature in the Sidonia region of Mars, first im imaged in 1976, is a large eroded mesa. Roughly. Okay, it's five miles, wow. Significantly larger than the Great Pyramid of Giza. Which is about 1.5 miles.
- [96:14]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. I mean, if you think about Mars and the stuff that we've seen on Mars, I mean, Mars has some very large features. I mean, Olympus Mons that's on Mars is three times.
- [96:23]
Interviewer
What is that? What did you just say?
- [96:24]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Olympus Mons. It's like the big. It's in, like, all your typical images of Mars, like the big, like, volcano.
- [96:31]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [96:33]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And it is, we think, three times taller than Mount Everest.
- [96:37]
Interviewer
Whoa.
- [96:37]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And then so, yeah, Olympus Mons is kind of that big, massive feature on Mars.
- [96:43]
Interviewer
So is this, like, the biggest mountain on Mars?
- [96:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes.
- [96:46]
Interviewer
It's like a giant pimple on the face of Mars.
- [96:49]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes. This is certainly one of the biggest features. So if you just look up, like, you know, the surface of Mars, like, you're gonna see Olympus Mons there.
- [96:59]
Interviewer
Look how much bigger it is than Mount Everest.
- [97:01]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes.
- [97:02]
Interviewer
That's so nuts.
- [97:03]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, we think it's three times as big. And then even Valles Marineris, which is the canyon that's on Mars. You know, we think it's like the size of the entire United States. So it is. We think Mars.
- [97:16]
Interviewer
Yeah. This planet is smaller than our planet.
- [97:18]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yes, Mars is smaller. So Mars does have some very large features to. To it, which I think is super interesting because there's. There's really some stuff that. That we have big interest in and just, you know, how. How these features came to be. But, yeah, very much larger features than. Than what's on Earth.
- [97:40]
Interviewer
Yeah. I'm super curious of how we can start getting, like, deep core samples of these parts of Mars that dig down and do some, like, serious excavations of it and see what. What we can pull out, because we would learn so much from that.
- [97:52]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah.
- [97:53]
Interviewer
And wouldn't that be easier than getting humans there?
- [97:55]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, you know, I certainly agree. I think that I would think some sort of, you know, drill or, you know, investigation into the subsurface is really important and really going to lend itself and help understand maybe some of the things that we still don't know about Mars. I would see it as something maybe, you know, before human mission, but, you know, really, really, it's just. I don't know who. Who's going to be doing that. You know, I'm. At the moment, it doesn't sound like NASA has any plans of doing, like, a deep subsurface mission, so it's. It's unsure. You know, maybe there's another agency that does something. I think that's just really the question of. Of who's going to do it, and then that will kind of maybe Direct the timeline. But I think like at the moment, if I were to guess, I think NASA's goals would maybe lend itself more to just like a human mission mission and then maybe a plan of like human doing like a drill investigation or research. But, but I'm not sure. It's certainly, I think a big important thing that we'll kind of maybe start seeing within the next bit of time and understanding more about Mars from the subsurfaces standpoint.
- [99:00]
Interviewer
Right, right. So did you ever like, did you ever talk to any of these astronauts that did any of these recent moon missions? Like this Artemis stuff and all this, like how many astronauts have you talked to that have actually like been on space. Space trip? Not, not just like have you been talking to any of the Apollo astronauts?
- [99:19]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I've met a lot of them over, over periods of time. You know, we're, we're certainly getting to a point now where a lot of the Apollo astronauts are passing away I think has been kind of unfortunate. But yeah, I've certainly met a lot of them over time. I think they're all, all very great people. I have, I haven't met anyone from like the most recent Artemis mission or like the most like recent crew that did the lunar flyby. So I haven't met any of them. But I mean, I guess over time I've met a good, good handful of astronauts so that.
- [99:51]
Interviewer
I don't know if you told this, you might have told me this story before we started recording about your trip when you. So you watched the Artemis shuttle launch in Cape Canaveral and then you basically drove across the country and watched them splash down in, off the coast of San Diego. Is that right?
- [100:08]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So I did a documentary which is titled Driven to Explore. And the goal of it was really having like a, a similar mission to the Artemis 2 mission, but on Earth. And so since the Artemis 2 mission was a 10 day mission from launch to splashdown, we had a similar 10 day mission on Earth where we were in Cape Canal for the launch and got to see that. And then the second it launched we hit the road and drove cross country and ended up in San Diego for the splashdown on April or at the end of those 10 days. And really the, the goal of it was to go and meet women in STEM kind of along the way and hear some of their stories. So we had some interviews with women that worked on the, the sls. Maybe they worked on the capsule, maybe they worked on the actual rocket itself. We met women that were just kind of scientists in their own fields in. In the space industry. And it was really fun. Yeah, we got to learn a little bit about, you know, different. Different fields that. That women have or are representing in. And really a lot of this, too, because since Christina Cook was really becoming the first woman to go the furthest that. That. That there's ever been. And really, all the astronauts, honestly, on the Artemis 2 went further than any other previous moon mission as far as, like, how far they went around the moon. It was just very cool to kind of bring a lot of that journey to some of the cool stuff happening on Earth as well.
- [101:41]
Interviewer
And then when you got to California, you realized you couldn't actually see them splashdown. They were too far offshore.
- [101:47]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So we kind of knew from the beginning that the splashdown is a little difficult to see because, I mean, a lot of stuff, you know, has always kind of splashed down off the coast of San Diego. Diego. So it kind of depends on the mission about how far offshore, because we were reading that depending on the day and visibility, sometimes you can see it a little bit. Sometimes you can hear, like, hear them break through, like, the sound barrier. But really it depends on how offshore that they are and, like, how offshore the capsule is. For this Artemis mission, they were certainly pretty far out there. So we just watched kind of the live stream for the actual splashdown as kind of like a conclusion. And we did. We went scuba diving off the coast of San Diego as well for the documentary. And we got to see the vessel that was bringing the Orion capsule back. So whenever they splashed down in the ocean, the astronauts were in the capsule, and they had a Navy vessel also out there kind of near where they splashed down. They sent, like, a smaller boat out to the capsule, and that's what recovered the astronauts and got them out the capsule. And then they brought them to the Navy vessel as, like, their initial medical check before, like, sending them to Houston. And then that vessel will then brought the capsule back in, because the capsule will then hopefully get refurbished and used for another Artemis mission. So they took it, towed it in. And so the Navy vessel, you know, was obviously out in the water a little bit longer, tugging that.
- [103:14]
Interviewer
You saw that ship come in?
- [103:15]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, the Navy vessel. Vessel was probably honestly, really not too far from us. We just kind of got lucky from the site that we went to to go scuba diving. We got a call in on the. The vessel that. That the dive captain was like, if you guys want to look, the Navy ship just called in and said that they're entering the area. And so we got to see it kind of off in the distance really?
- [103:36]
Interviewer
Has any civilian ever seen one of those things splash down? Have there been like non cleared people out there like fishing and seen this thing come out of the sky?
- [103:45]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I would say no because of how offshore it is. It's like 60 miles offshore. 16, 60.
- [103:52]
Interviewer
Oh, 60.
- [103:53]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. So it's pretty far out.
- [103:55]
Interviewer
There's a lot of fishermen out there.
- [103:56]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, I mean, I would certainly not say never, but I'm sure there is obviously a lot of like searches of the air because they have the Navy vessel, they have obviously helicopters going around because they're trying to spot the capsule as it's coming down as soon as possible.
- [104:12]
Interviewer
So they probably make it like, like they probably rope it off. Yeah, like a perimeter, don't let anybody enter it. Right.
- [104:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And I mean, it's crazy how timed all of this is, right? I mean the splashdown, they splash down at like the literal minute that was predicted per like the trajectory of the mission. So that's nuts. It was insane. Cause it's all calculated, right? They know when the astronauts are gonna come in and splash down. I mean, I think it was like 5:07pm or whatever it was. It was like that and that was the time that they splashed down. So it was very, very much calculated. But yeah, it was a very, very fun trip. And I'm very excited, obviously now moving into post production with the documentary, but very fun to kind of be able to keep up with the Artemis 2 mission while kind of being on our own kind of mission across the country. And it was fun because, you know, you were, you felt more involved every step of the way because so many people will watch the launch. But really that's just the beginning of the mission. Right. And so there's many, so, so many crucial steps at every step of the way. Like when they did their, their engine burn to actually start their lunar trajectory, I mean there's a lot of, a lot of parts to the mission that were like big steps.
- [105:21]
Interviewer
What did you, what did you see? Scuba diving in San Diego. That's a place I would never imagine going. Scuba diving.
- [105:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, it was actually my first time ever, like scuba diving on the West Coast.
- [105:31]
Interviewer
We went pretty creepy.
- [105:33]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, we went to a kelp forest actually, which, which was pretty cool because I'd never been to like a kelp forest before. But yeah, there's lots of sea lions, a lot of wildlife actually, which was interesting. None of them got like too close to us. But it was funny because we were like diving and then like maybe how do you know, we didn't go too deep. We probably round 40, 45ft.
- [105:54]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [105:56]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Just to kind of get to the bottom of where we were.
- [105:58]
Interviewer
Did you go off the beach or, like, off a cliff or something?
- [106:01]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
No, we. We just took a dive boat out. They had, like. They had, like, a location. Location that, you know, depending on what you want to see, you know, they have, like, different spots that they typically bring divers. So, like, for this kelp forest spot, we, like, went to where they typically go and, like, diving. So we just, like, went to a particular kelp forest and then we just, like, jumped off the boat from there.
- [106:21]
Interviewer
God, had to be so crazy.
- [106:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It's very cold.
- [106:23]
Interviewer
I've seen footage. I've never scuba dived. I've surfed through kelp forest, but I've never scuba dived in a kelp forest before.
- [106:28]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It was. It was a bit challenging because I had never scuba dived in a Cup Force either. It's really cold and you can get, like, tangled pretty quick.
- [106:37]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [106:39]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so that was certainly a new. A new situation to kind of learn and adapt to. But also the cold was really interesting because they. I feel like they kept warning us, you know, since we had never dove in, you know, off the west coast about how cold it is and, like, kind of the shock. Well, we were at the surface for a good while, just kind of getting set up and everything. I was like, I don't think the water's that much bad. And then when we went down to the bottom, I was like, I'm freezing. Oh, my gosh. The temperature dropped so quickly as we, like, descended. I was like, oh, my gosh. They were not kidding.
- [107:11]
Interviewer
This is.
- [107:11]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
This is freezing.
- [107:12]
Interviewer
And the bottom was, like, 40ft.
- [107:14]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so it was like 40 to 45ft was at the bottom. So we went all the way down.
- [107:18]
Interviewer
Okay, so you're pretty close to the shore then.
- [107:19]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, yeah, we really weren't. Weren't too far. Mainly just for, like, time of, like, the documentary and, like, film filming. We weren't trying to, like, spend an hour going, like, super far out. So just for our own timelines, we did something, like, near. Pretty near the shore.
- [107:32]
Interviewer
Yeah. Yeah. That's just like, that whole part of, like, the whole west coast of California. Like, they're so, like. It gets so deep. It's so cold. There's, like, the ocean is so kind of, like, unpredictable over there. And then, like, also you have nuclear submarines coming in and out of, like, the inlets there. Like, down. Especially down, like, in the Newport area. I've seen. And yeah, it can just get hairy out there. So I've, like, never been interested in like, going like, scuba diving or free diving over there. Kind of like, I prefer the Caribbean. The water's warmer, it's super clear. No nuclear submarines.
- [108:10]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, well, I mean, prior to that, really, I had done most of my diving out in Florida. And so Florida. Florida is a much more comfortable and like, stable environment.
- [108:19]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [108:19]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
To go scuba diving in. So that was certainly a new adventure.
- [108:22]
Interviewer
Yeah. Here in the Bahamas and like, everywhere in between around here is much more friendly.
- [108:26]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, it was, it was super cool. And I'm very glad because, like, I mean, really, the Artemis 2 mission with there being like, humans on board, I think really drew a lot of attention and I think is. I think it's just really cool to see. I mean, realistically, this was not only the first time we have sent humans back to the moon since the 1970s, but also, like, really the first time we've had NASA astronauts launching from a NASA vehicle in, you know, since the space shuttle. Because after the space shuttle ended, obviously NASA astronauts were going to the International Space Station via Russia, and NASA was like, paying for their tickets on Soyuz. And then when SpaceX came into play, then SpaceX was. Was essentially used as the charter vehicle to the International Space Station.
- [109:11]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [109:12]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so this was really the first time we've had NASA astronauts on a NASA vehicle in quite some time.
- [109:17]
Interviewer
And they didn't even touch the moon, they just went around it.
- [109:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, they went.
- [109:21]
Interviewer
How many years has it been since. What was it? 72 was the Apollo 17?
- [109:25]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
17, yeah. 72 was the last time that we went out that far. And then again, this trajectory was a little bit, a little bit further. So if you think about, in comparison to the Apollo days, because I think that was a big conversation, Right. With Artemis too, was like, why? Why are they just going to the moon? Like, how silly. And. And you know, when you think about it, everyone, you know, thinks about Apollo 11 that landed on the moon, but there was 8, 9 and 10 that all went to the moon but didn't land. And those were really like those preparation mission. So they were testing the rocket. Literally. Apollo 10 practiced almost like descending on the moon. And they were like, we can see it. We want to land. Like, let us land. And there wasn't like, enough fuel to like, land and like, launch, because that wasn't the actual goal of that mission. And so that's what we're seeing now with Artemis too. This was really one of those first missions to go to the moon kind of practice this new trajectory because this was a different trajectory than like what Apollo 11 did. And so test the systems. They were testing the life support systems. This is the first time this capsule has ever had humans in it and had to sustain humans for 10 days. And so you're really practicing all those systems before you're just jumping and, and landing on the moon.
- [110:38]
Interviewer
So it's been 60 years since we first touched down and had a humans on the surface of the moon. What was the. Steve, Google this. What was the time between the first airplane, the first time we ever flew a plane, humans ever had a powered aircraft? What was the time? Find out the year that happened. 1903. So almost the same amount of time to 1969. So from the first airplane to going on the freaking moon was the same time between the last time we landed on the moon to now pretty much. That's kind of crazy to think about.
- [111:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, no, it is really crazy. And I think really, like, you know, the space industry has really progressed, but just in a very different way. You know, it's just like progressed within low Earth orbit around rather than deep space. But yeah, it is really insane to think about like how long it's been since like we went. And I think it's a really exciting time, especially for people interested in the space industry, because I think we're just going to see more and more progress and especially I think with a lot of the current pushes for building, you know, some sort of permanent presence on the moon. And I think the Artemis missions are just going to be kind of a, a pretty heavy force of, you know, continuation of like, we'll just see missions
- [112:05]
Interviewer
more frequently than we have go to Mars. I would maybe ask like, if it's okay if I go to the moon first. Like, can I just do try the moon first just as like a warmup.
- [112:17]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, you know. Well, it's really funny cause with like the Artemis 2, the three NASA astronauts that were on that mission were veterans. They've been to the International Space Station, They've been to space multiple times. The Canadian, it was his first ever mission.
- [112:30]
Interviewer
Oh, wow.
- [112:31]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
And so it was his first mission and he went further than any human's ever gone before. So it's really creepy, crazy kind of something like that, that balance between like, what's more important. I know, like with a mission to Mars, it's almost like the same idea, right? Do you have someone who has experience and has like done a mission before or is it, you know, with the timeline of how long the mission to Mars is do you want someone that's never been to space before and they've never had any effects of microgravity on their body? They maybe have more of like a fresher from like, almost more of a medical standpoint of like, they've never, never had any effects because of living in microgravity to their body because of, like, the duration of the trip. But again, a lot of that's really just going to depend, I think, again,
- [113:14]
Interviewer
on like, raw dog at full send. First time, baby. Go all the way.
- [113:20]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. And I mean, even with like a mission to Mars, right, you're going to need such a diverse group of, you know, you're probably going to want someone who's more of a geologist to actually do some of the research that you get there. You're obviously going to want someone who's very experienced, a good pilot. I mean, there's just so many different roles to think about when you're actually like, there and making a human mission to Mars.
- [113:40]
Interviewer
Right. Right now in like. So currently you're studying as an. You're studying to be like a master, getting a master's in astrobiology, is that correct?
- [113:53]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I'm getting my PhD in your PhD, yes. So I am a three years in, into a PhD program.
- [114:00]
Interviewer
Sorry, I don't know anything about this, though.
- [114:02]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
No, you're all good.
- [114:03]
Interviewer
I barely graduated high school.
- [114:04]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
You're all good. Yeah, I mean, so I went straight. I guess the lay down was I went straight from undergrad to a PhD program. So I essentially skipped a master's, skipped over the masters.
- [114:14]
Interviewer
How'd you do that?
- [114:15]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
It's actually really common in a lot of the more, I guess, science fields. They don't really require you to have a master's to pursue like a PhD program, which I think is just one not very well known and just. I certainly didn't know about it. I actually applied as a master's student. And then when I was trying to work with the professor that I wanted to work with, he was only interested in PhD students. And I certainly understand it a lot more now because of a master's is so short that it's hard to really conduct meaningful research within only two years. And so he was saying, you know, by the time you get trained on all the stuff to use for your research, your graduation, graduating, and so it's certainly an interest of them to kind of have PhD students who are going to be around longer, and so they get more research under their belt. So, yeah, I'm in a PhD program in space and planetary science. But all of my research is still within astrobiology. So my bachelor's degree was directly in astrobiology. And then all of my current research interests are still astrobiology. And yeah, just continuing through the PhD program and conducting my research, which is all about microbes and Mars and that connection and contributing to that kind of gap in the field. And at the moment really just continue with that and then post PhD, either staying within academia or working in the industry, but again within research either way. And I'm officially, I guess, eligible to apply to the astronaut selection process whenever it opens up again. So since the requirement is you have to have at least a Master's, like the Ph.D. equivalent to that would be at least two years into your Ph.D. program. So I would be eligible to apply whenever it opens. So would probably give it a stab whenever they open it back up as like my first, I guess, true application to NASA's selection process.
- [116:16]
Interviewer
The people that you're working with, that you're, that you're like rubbing shoulders with at your college that are pursuing these PhD, PhDs and stuff like astrobiology. What sort of jobs in the industry do they typically go for? And like what sort of companies hire them? Are we talking like private aerospace or.
- [116:33]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, really depends. You know, we have someone who's about to graduate and he's looking at a job with the Smithsonian. We have some people that pursue like government, so maybe even a little outside of, you know, just the space realm, but maybe just like working on like, you know, biomaterials for some government projects. Project privately. I mean, it really is just depending on your area of research because we're all pretty different, right? I mean, my, my research focuses are, you know, that microbiology and Mars. But we have some people that study Pluto, some people that have a focus on Venus. You know, it kind of just depends on what your area focuses. And then also money is a big thing too. So that's why it's kind of hard to tell especially, especially for me at this point, whether I would stay within academia or pursue industry. Because a lot of the funding for this comes from like grants and like interest in that science topic. And so that is very ever evolving. Because like, sometimes, you know, right now, Mars maybe isn't as big of a topic within astrobiology as like Europa is. So it's kind of always evolving to what the, what the current most fascinating topic within the field is. And so you certainly kind of flow a little bit with it.
- [117:50]
Interviewer
And where do most of the grants come from?
- [117:53]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
A lot of them are like NASA grants. So, like, kind of the NASA budget also determines a lot of that and like, which division within NASA you fall into. So you can apply for NASA grants. Sometimes there's more just like general science grants like nsf, kind of just funding a certain science interests. So that's kind of the main areas to look into.
- [118:16]
Interviewer
What about like, companies like Lockheed or like the Aerospace Corporation or any of these types of companies? Do they ever give grants to you?
- [118:25]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Certainly, but it really, again, depends on like, your science interest. So, I mean, if you're working in like material science or like, for example, if, you know, because since engineers are so focused on like the actual equipment rather than like the actual direct science, you get out of it, a lot of material science can certainly get like, funding from those areas because, you know, you're actually testing that equipment in, in those environments. But as far as like, direct science, a lot of that may be not so much since the engineering is just the actual vehicle rather than like the actual task that will be, you know, happening in space.
- [118:58]
Interviewer
Right, right. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you for doing this. Yeah, it's been fun.
- [119:04]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah. Love talking about space.
- [119:06]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What up? Where can people find out more about you or like, follow you? Do you have a website or anything like that?
- [119:14]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Yeah, so all of my socials and everything is under NASA Blueberry, so website as well.
- [119:20]
Interviewer
NASA Blueberry, NASA Blueberry.
- [119:21]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
NASA Blueberry.
- [119:22]
Interviewer
That's your handle?
- [119:23]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
That is my handle. Had it ever since I started. Started social media, which honestly just started out as posting photos for the family. But since I always had kind of of an interest in space, I was kind of posting what me and my dad were up to over the summer in like, camps and stuff. And Blueberry is kind of like a nickname. So call signs are really common within, like, the space industry, where you get like, assigned a call sign, right. And you, like, don't choose it. And whenever I was going to space camp, I wanted one of like, the blue flight suits that I saw everyone wearing, but I couldn't fit in any of them. So my dad bought this, like, knockoff, really dark shade of blue, and I really stuck out and so everyone started calling me Blueberry. And. And it like, stuck and everyone just kind of kept, oh, look, blueberries back. And so it just kind of naturally became. Became a nickname.
- [120:12]
Interviewer
I love it. That's very. That's very cool. Well, I hope you can find out if the UFOs and the aliens are real. And let us know, please. Let me know. Don't keep it a secret.
- [120:22]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I'll certainly keep you updated when I figure it out. I certainly think as far as, like, finding something out there, I think microbes are going to be the first thing that we find.
- [120:31]
Interviewer
Yes, well, microbe counts to me. In my book, that's an alien.
- [120:34]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
I agree. I agree.
- [120:35]
Interviewer
Let me know. Awesome. Thanks again for doing this.
- [120:38]
Astrobiologist / Space Scientist
Thank you.
- [120:38]
Interviewer
All right, good night, everybody.