#407 - Anunnaki Expert Decoded True Origin of 'Ancient Alien' Technology | Heather Lynn

Summary

Danny Jones Podcast #407

Guest: Dr. Heather Lynn
Title: Anunnaki Expert Decoded True Origin of 'Ancient Alien' Technology
Date: June 22, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply engaging episode, Danny Jones welcomes Dr. Heather Lynn, an archaeologist, investigator of ancient mysteries, whistleblower, and expert on the Anunnaki and occult influences on power structures throughout history. The discussion traverses Dr. Lynn's unconventional background, the entanglement of archaeology with spycraft and occultism, the contested histories of Sumer and the Anunnaki, the secret architecture underpinning modern institutions, and the manipulation of mythology and chaos magic by present-day elites. The exchange carries a candid, conspiratorial yet evidence-seeking tone, blending scholarly rigor with deep skepticism toward official narratives.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Heather Lynn’s Unconventional Origin Story

[01:26-08:07]

• Ran away at 16, wandered the U.S. pursuing “van life” before it was trendy.
• Early “paranormal” awakening near Area 51, chased by black vehicles:

  “Maybe the government isn’t our friend, which is just like—oh, duh. But, you know, I’m a kid.” (Heather Lynn, 04:08)

• Transitioned from dropout to PhD, studying archaeology, anthropology, and economic history, emphasizing the “follow the money” mantra.

Academia, Archaeology & The ‘Knowledge Filter’

[08:07-17:38]

• Lynn encountered institutional gatekeeping and suppression of alternative ideas:

  “It felt like it was activist training and not methodology...the mission was never finding out the truth about the past. It was self-preservation.” (Heather Lynn, 13:05)

• Experiences with suspected corruption in grant funding, and groomed disinterest in “pseudo-archaeology.”
• Influenced by author Michael Cremo to “stay in, learn the methodology, be a double agent.”

The Sumerian Controversy, Funding, and Occult Interests

[19:13-33:39]

• Discovered deep-pocketed funders (Nazi-linked Baron von Dissen family, Gulf Sands Petroleum) behind archaeological digs in Iraq.
• Espionage and archaeology:

  “The history of archaeology is deeply entwined in spycraft. Period.” (Heather Lynn, 24:07)

• Archaeological expeditions historically used as covers for colonial operations and map redrawing (Gertrude Bell, Lawrence of Arabia).
• British aristocracy, Nazi ties, and ancient artifact hoarding.

Occult Convergences: Why the Anunnaki?

[35:05-54:48]

• Sudden culture of Sumer, its uncrackable language isolate, and the emergence of “civilization”:

  “How did this culture appear in just 200 years...from semi-settled hunter-gatherers to civilization?” (Heather Lynn, 36:57)

• Sitchin's legacy and mistranslations, the viral spread of "Ancient Aliens" narrative.
• Real Sumerian texts—Anunnaki weren't exactly literal aliens, but represent a mysterious, technologically advanced group possibly merged with indigenous peoples (“the Shining Ones” with blue eyes, lapis lazuli motifs).
• Notable Quote:

  “When you translate something, it’s like if I were to say ‘Danny’s so cool’ and I wrote that down—later, someone’s like, ‘his body temperature’s lower than everyone else’s.’” (Heather Lynn, 50:34)

Sacred Drugs, Altered States, and Ancient Technology

[54:48-73:08]

• Sumerians used psychoactive substances—poppies, beer, mushroom tablets for ritual and “divine communication.”
• “Wristwatches of the gods” were ornate poppy symbolism, not UFO tech.
• Temple prostitution and the origins of coinage: sex, economics, and the creation of mediating priest classes.
• The transformation from animism, shamanic ancestor-worship, to hierarchical religion with engineered myths and ritual, often bearing striking parallels across civilizations.

Modern Occult Organizations & Mystery Schools

[93:39-127:11]

• Dr. Lynn recounts her deep-dive into the “Lucis Trust” (formerly Lucifer Publishing), which has UN affiliations and global policy ambitions.

  “They build themselves as the spiritual center of the United Nations.”

• Occultist bloodline obsession among philanthropists, tech moguls, and globalists (Bannon, Epstein, Teal, etc.).
• The mechanics of “chaos magic” and psychological operations in politics—using symbols and collective rituals to charge intention and manipulate public consciousness.

Power, Mythology, Control—Ancient to Modern

[127:14-148:15]

• The cyclical, entropy-based eschatological view of elites (Peter Thiel, René Girard’s scapegoat theory).
• “History and math are two things not well taught to people because they are the prime control levers...by design.” (Heather Lynn, 144:27)
• Modern resurgence of religious mythos (“manufacturing a new mythology”), the dangers of engineered narratives, and the manipulation of chaos through mass media and disclosure/disinformation movements.

The Disclosure ‘Fiasco’ & the True Nature of the Phenomenon

[168:41-174:43]

• Current “UFO Disclosure” movement seen as astro-turfing for a manufactured mythology and mass distraction.

  “They’re trying to astroturf Armageddon.” (Heather Lynn quoting Sam Tripoli, 174:41)

• Not a unified conspiracy, but multiple elite factions leveraging myth, chaos, and “ultraterrestrial” (John Keel) narratives for personal power.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On archaeology and corruption:

“I started to learn the inner workings of the actual job...it wasn’t about finding cool shit. I started working with grant money for programs that didn’t even exist.” (Heather Lynn, 14:20)

On the Sumerian “problem”:

“History literally begins at Sumer...their language is an isolate, there’s no known language that it’s related to and it just pops up out of nowhere.” (Heather Lynn, 36:57)

On translation issues:

“When you translate something...later they’re like, ‘Danny’s body temperature has to be fairly low.’ It’s like, you don’t even know what I’m saying.” (Heather Lynn, 50:34)

On the priest class in ancient society:

“You need a mediator—the priest class—that’s the only way to control the knowledge. Knowledge is power.” (Heather Lynn, 53:30)

On the manufacture of new mythologies:

“They're trying to usher in a new mythology, a new narrative…but it can’t just be new; it has to be a new take on something old and familiar.” (Heather Lynn, 168:53)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:26] Heather’s background, van life, Area 51 story.
• [13:05] "Activist training" in academia, knowledge filter.
• [24:07] Spycraft and the history of archaeological expeditions.
• [36:53] Sumerian language isolate, “the Sumerian Problem.”
• [50:34] Problems of translation and cultural interpretation.
• [63:56–77:14] Sumerian ritual tablets, psychoactives, myth-making.
• [116:08–127:14] Lucis Trust, occult architecture of global governance.
• [127:14–148:15] Thiel/Girard, the creation and management of myth, scapegoating, and social order.
• [168:41–174:43] Disclosure as PSYOP, astroturfed Armageddon.

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Structure of Power: Ancient to Modern

• Ancient Roots: Subjugation through priestly literacies, engineered myths, and control of math/knowledge.
• Modern Parallels: Global elites pursue immortality and control via technology, control of information, psychological and chaos magic operations.
• Institutional Convergence: Secret societies, UN occult affiliations, banking and governments drawing on esoteric and ancient philosophies.
• Disclosure as Distraction: Modern “disclosure” movements suggested as means to manufacture consensus myth, distract, or even catalyze engineered eschatological events (“astroturfing Armageddon”).

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Final Thoughts

Dr. Lynn’s meta-thesis is compelling: True power is held by controlling access to knowledge, narrative, and number, from Sumer to Silicon Valley. Whether through priestly castes, mystery schools, or tech moguls-turned-philosophers, elites have long sought to shape humanity’s reality through ancient and covert channels, using myth, mathematics, and the occult as their tools.

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Find Dr. Lynn’s work:

• The H Files

For further discussion:

• Bannon’s War for Eternity by Benjamin Teitelbaum
• Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

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“Just because somebody wears a suit and tie and gets up to talk about the economy doesn’t mean they’re not doing weird shit, too.”
—Dr. Heather Lynn, [134:06]

Transcript

[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

Wow. I am clearing the rest of the day.

[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

Hey.

[Danny Jones]

I love your jacket.

[Heather Lynn]

Thank you. I thought I'm bringing the rock and roll to Danny Jones.

[Danny Jones]

I love it. I'm a, I'm a huge fan of your work.

[Heather Lynn]

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[Danny Jones]

Your background. You started working in a mystery school or something like this connected to the United Nations.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, not really, but sort of. You got that Mystery school dropout is what I try to like put on. Yeah, I'm proud of that. I guess. I'm actually a lot of school dropouts, so that should be an interesting thing. I actually dropped out of high school, left home when I was 16 years old and traveled the country and did van life before. That was a cool thing. Yeah, it was wow. For a minute. It got a little hard after I, you know, end up traveling through the west and a lot of fun though. A lot of misadventures. Probably one of the most transformative of those adventures was my jaunt into around Area 51. So I think this is where a lot of my interest in the so called paranormal started. Actually. I spent a lot of time driving and this was before, you know, Internet radio and that sort of thing. So I had the radio radio and you can only listen to so much Bob Seeger and country music in middle America. Sorry. Before it just starts to get like a little much. And so I tuned into late night radio and of course Art Bell. And at the time that was George Norrie. And so I'm, you know, listening to that and then in the evenings and staring out in the desert and just it was the whole experience Right. I'm thinking, oh, this is sweet. I'm like 16, 17 years old. And so I used to think, wow, these people are so amazing. I love these guests. I just wish that someday I could just know people that interesting and talk to people that like, interesting. And so it was kind of a full circle moment when I was able to be on that show. But aside from that, I spent some time kind of in the desert and exploring it as a kid would. And I had the funniest little story. It was very minor, but at the time, it was a little transformative. So I park in the middle of the road, well, you know, off to the side, and I start walking through where I thought maybe Area 51 was and that whole area. And I go, and I notice all those signs that say, you know, don't go any further. The government reserves the right to shoot you if you go any further. And I thought, wait, what? Of course. I'm a trusting kid. So I thought, wait a second. And it wasn't. There wasn't a clear enough. I don't think, demarcation either, about where they would actually shoot you. And I think that disoriented me a little bit. And it's the desert. I'm looking around like, why did I stray so far from my car? What's going on? And it just spooked me a little. And so I started going back and I got into the car and I was like, I think I'm out of here. And then I noticed the quintessential black vehicles coming down the ridge and, like, coming after me. Now, they were just doing their basic job of what they do because I wasn't anywhere near it. But it was enough for me and my Pontiac Sunbird at the time, driving with these cars behind me. And I'm like, oh, shit. I'm white knuckling it like, what is going on? I've seen the X Files. I know what's going on. What the fuck? You know? And I'm just like. I stopped. They were just, like, kind of behind me. And then they drove off. And I thought for the first time I thought, maybe the government isn't our friend, which is just like, oh, duh. But, you know, I'm a kid. I didn't know. And I was like, they could shoot me for that. And I was already a runaway, so if somebody would have shot me there and something would have happened, I would have never been found. I would have been on a milk carton or something. So it was kind of like a moment of snapping into reality. I don't know. It reminded me of a film that. This is an old film. It was indie film, too, but it was. I can't remember what it was called exactly, but it was about a bunch of these boys who were really into rap and this sort of thing. And they end up going into a ghetto in Chicago. Cause they were trying to emulate their favorite rappers. And they're in there talking all street and thinking, this is so cool. And then shit hits the fan and it gets really dark really quick. So it was like that moment of realization that some of these topics seem fun until they become real. And then that's when you have to say, wait a second. And it's sort of like a moment of realization. And so I think my first moment of realization was in that desert thinking, knowing that I didn't get anywhere near the actual Area 51. But it was enough to say, something's here. And, you know, maybe it's just government, maybe it's just whatever. But at the same time, yes, White boys. That is a funny one. And yeah, it's great. It's a dark comedy. I recommend it. It's kind of corny and from the time period, but, yeah, great film. That kind of just. I think it's what's needed to see when you're a young person, maybe, and you think, oh, I'm into this, like, subculture, and I'm doing this stuff, and it gets real on you. You know, people who dabble, a lot of teenagers, a lot of young people, they say, oh, I like this aesthetic. I like this stuff. You know, we joke a lot about, you know, of course, the Satanism and the stereotyp. Typical view of, like, a Satanist. You think of, like, you know, a kid who's all goth and wearing a pentagram. Like the Hot Topic kids. And it's like, you know, they're really typically not the Satanists. They're typically not the ones you have to worry about. They're into the aesthetic. It's just, you know, subversive. It's like rock and roll. But it's sometimes the things that are just beneath the surface or hidden in plain sight, as they say. I know it's super cliche that then gets you to think, wait a second, maybe there's something real to it. So, like, how real does it get? And that's something that I stumb. Stumbled upon when I was actually teaching at a college. And so, as I said, I did drop out of, like, real school. I ended up going back, though. I started at a community college and, you know, did the responsible thing. So I thought, like, I'll take business courses and just did that. And then I ended up taking art history and archeology, and I just thought, I'm going to follow that through. And, you know, because of the encouragement of a professor of art history, I thought, well, you know, maybe I have something here. Maybe this is something that I could do. And so it became something that stayed with me for a long time. I thought, I want to go back to community college when I'm done with this, and I'm going to teach and I'm going to try to make a difference, you know, in the lives. It's, you know, kind of like a trope. But it really meant something to me. So I always had that in the back of my head. But then I ended up going to state school and then master's and doctorate. So I didn't drop out. I ended up going all the way through. But I followed the path of history. I kind of had a varied background. It was archaeology, anthropology, information technology, and then a master's in history and then the doctorate in education. I worked in museums, too.

[Danny Jones]

Any specific lane in archeology or any specific area you focused on?

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, for my actual graduate work, it ended up being economic history, which was quite a surprise because it sounded boring, right? Like just math at the time. Of course, to me, that's what it sounded like. But the reason I stumbled into it was I was initially interested in Western esotericism. And it's like, well, how do you find that through line into economic history? Well, I started following the money. That was always. The thing is, when it comes down to it, often you will find that everything's about the money, and not just the money itself, the cash, but the management of our resources, including people. So that's what I kind of focused on. But at the same time, I was studying the Sumerians and I was studying the topic that I think makes a lot of people kind of like nowadays, either very excited, maybe for the wrong reasons, or just totally roll their eyes. And that's when I started writing a little bit on the Anunnaki. And so that took a different trajectory altogether. And I remember the first person that encouraged me to go in that direction. And again, I didn't have a support system. So, you know, through college I had professors, and then I had authors that I liked. And one of those authors happened to be Michael Cremo of Forbidden Archeology. A very good book. Like, it's huge. It's like the Bible.

[Danny Jones]

I'm so familiar with that name.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, yeah, he's one of the greats. And I wrote to him because he was one of the people on the board. There was a whiteboard on, like, seriously, like, day. I think it was like, two of Archeology 101. Like, basic, basic stuff here. And they had all these names up on the board and they were like, we're going to debunk these individuals. And I'm like, wait. I was listening to coast to coast and these shows. I'm like, I recognize some of these individuals.

[Danny Jones]

Is Graham Hancock up there?

[Heather Lynn]

Yes, actually. And unsurprisingly. And I thought, I don't think I'm in the right position to be debunking anybody at this point. I'm literally a community college student in, like, day two.

[Danny Jones]

What a weird way to approach learning, right?

[Heather Lynn]

That was my whole thought. I was like. But I wasn't again, I was always kind of trusting, like, the government wouldn't hurt us. And then I was like, I just paid, you know, $700 total for these textbooks. Surely they're right. Surely that. Yeah. So a lot of learning has happened since then, obviously. But I was skeptical at the time. I thought. I don't feel that I. I wanted to debunk them necessarily. Cause I was kind of a fan, right? So I realized that most, like, wow,

[Danny Jones]

this guy got me into archeology day one. You're trying to get me to, like, take him down, right?

[Heather Lynn]

100%. And I thought, you gotta meet people where they are. And that was the start of my actual, like, in the system, sort of, like, bucking of trends and pushing up against stuff. Because I got very involved in the program and ended up being a teaching assistant and doing a lot of different excavations and projects. And then I worked for a community research program that was through the school where I was doing grant funding and the typical things, of course, the money part of it. And I started to learn the inner workings of the actual job that it is to be in the cultural resource management field. And not just like, you know, archeology is like, cool, we're going to find some cool shit, whatever. No, it wasn't like that. It was. I got involved and I think another two things stuck out to me. One was that a lot of the program initially, like, as soon as you get in, it was, let's try to discuss ethics and this sort of thing, fine. But they were all these things that were outlined by the American Anthropological association and other bodies who sort of govern the field. And again, totally fine, I suppose. But what you start to see is that it's like Project Mockingbird, where everything gets filtered through this. What Michael Cremo called the knowledge filter. Shout out to Michael Cremo, but he put the knowledge filter out as this idea. And I started seeing it in live time. And I think what was disconcerting to me was that there was this entire focus not on completely teaching us methodology, but teaching us how to, I guess, become like Flint Dibbles. Like, the whole job was basically, how can we be an apologist for the field? How can we make sure that we don't allow pseudoscience or pseudoarcheology to have any kind of influence on anybody? It felt like it was activist training and not methodology. And I was like, this is sticking out to me as something really strange. But, you know, I'm rolling with it because what do I know? I'm trying to learn. And then I go and I'm in this program. And they were like, well, can you make us some flyers for Archaeology Day at the museum? I'm like, sweet, yeah, I'll do that. They didn't oversee the project. So I made these flyers with, like, the skull and a melting candle. And it was like, in this cave. And it was like, really kind of, I thought, pretty cool. And I brought them dutifully to the table, I put them down, and I had all this stuff. And the thing went off as planned. And afterwards I got a stern talking to because I was sensationalizing archeology. And it was like, not what we're supposed to do.

[Danny Jones]

Not allowed to make it fun.

[Heather Lynn]

Not allowed to make it fun. Exactly. And I'm like, you have to meet people where they are. This was not an academic course. This was a day to bring the public in and just sort of like, walk by a table, grab your little swag and a candy and a little bit of paper and print collateral. Like, of course we should make it fun, but no. And I came across little hints like that, that we were on a mission. And the mission was never finding out the truth about the past. It was self preservation in nature. And I thought, hmm, interesting. And then, of course, I ran across a bunch of money issues. Like I was finding grant money for a program that didn't actually exist. It was told to me at this, like, beautiful gala, too. Again, community college in Ohio. So this is not like we're not talking a huge endowment, although they have a huge endowment. Again, think about how deep that corruption goes. If at that community college level, you have tunnels underneath where they're ushering in big donors from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Yeah, why would that be happening at that level?

[Danny Jones]

But I wonder how much Leslie Wexner is attached to all that stuff. He's a big shot in Ohio.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, he is. And very wrapped up with Ohio State University, too. So, yeah, I mean, that money just kind of goes that way. And so it's very suspicious. And I just started seeing that. Yeah, you know, I was told this program didn't actually exist, so to speak. It was going to be there to fix, shuffle a little money into the coffers of the summer adjuncts. And some of the people on their team, they just wanted a money grab. And I started learning about the grant writing process and how it is that you use academies and things to try to almost like a magic spell, cast spells over people to get them to give you money and do all this stuff again. Why wasn't I learning proper methodology? I mean, it was there. I had a few professors that, of course, that was a thing, but boy, was the focus on getting free money and making sure you're covering your ass. And I just like, I'm done with this. I'm so over this. And I typed an email to Michael Cremo and was like, Michael Cremo, I'm really like a renegade and I just run from stuff and I'm just about out of here, like, whatever, you know, I thought I was just like, had it. And he emailed me back to his credit and was like a voice of reason to me and said, hey, you have two choices. One is to stay in the field and you can make a change and do so incrementally, or you can get out of the field and write whatever you want, but, you know, you'll lose some credibility. And at the time, I think credentialism was a lot stronger than it is now. I usually don't rely on my credentials, although I do have the doctor Heather Lynn in front. But I say that's because if you Google Heather Lynn, you're gonna find a whole lot of Heather Lynn's that just have nothing to do with me. So I put the doctor in front. But I don't. I don't at all claim to be an absolute expert in any field that way. More of a whistleblower or something like that, or just an interested party. I think after Douglas Murray incident on Joe Rogan where he said to Dave Smith, have you ever been? I think that kind of was the shot heard around the world against Credentialism Yeah, that regular people are allowed to speak up and say what they've experienced. And so, you know, I thought, I don't need these credentials. Screw this. But he talked me off the ledge and said, you know, though, it's more than credentials, of course, it's about learning the methodology, because how can you be opposed to something you know nothing about? And I was like, oh, you. That's right. Settled it. Settle me down here. I need that sort of like, you know, adult influence. And so I stayed in and I kind of coped with it a little bit by just thinking of myself as like a double agent. Like, I'm gonna go in here, I'm learn this stuff. And it was actually fantastic. And I did learn what I needed to, and it was a great experience. But I always kept it with me that when I'm out of here, I'm not going to go in this. Well, I hope to go in a traditional route a little bit, but I didn't want to go in a fully traditional route and just get sucked into that academic industrial complex. I wanted to do something different because I wanted to explore whether or not some of these weird ideas, the alternative ideas, had any kind of basis. Like, let's just apply that methodology. A serious approach to what people generally think as being unserious topics. And so I was like, that's what I'm gonna.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

Well, along the way. So that was, that was an interesting thing as well. Everything was sort of like a one thing leads to another leads to another. I had none of this planned. My husband jokes that like I've Mr. Magoo my way through everything, like does not know how. I've just like not been dead or like something. So I just was like, okay. I ended up writing a blog and doing some things. And so it starts with my work with the Anunnaki, strangely enough. And I wrote a little report that was called the Sumerian Controversy and I put it up on Kindle for 99 cents. And I think I put it on my blog at the time. And it was about an archeological excavation that made the news that happened in the city of Ur, well, modern day Iraq, of course. And so the amazing thing about this particular excavation was it was the first of its kind in decades because of all the wars. And so this was the first. And it was done by the University of Manchester. So we think so. We know that was the beginning of it though. And I put some of the information out on my blog and I had people reach out to me like, hey, this is very interesting to, you know what's going on and can we get more information on say, Stargates? Are they looking for gold? Are they looking for. And I'm like, that was my like thought too. It was just like, why? Why what? Okay, so I'm going to email the professor. And I did. And I said, can I have an interview? And they said, sure, just submit the questions. I was like, great. So I submitted some just, you know, talking shop style questions and the last one I reserved for the people. And so I threw it out on my blog. And I was like, all right, cool. I got like some FaceTime with this guy. What would you like to know? I'm going to have a question in there. Majority of people wanted to know about Stargates. Could they be in Mesopotamia? Could that have been the real reason we went to War in Iraq. And I'm like, whatever. I mean, to talk to people, right? Well, I was ghosted completely. And I thought, you know, I get it, I get it, but I don't. I'm kind of, like, annoyed at that. You could have just said, hey, let's leave question four out, or I don't feel comfortable discussing that, or whatever. And so I thought, well, now I'm interested because he ghosted me. Now I want to know, like, what's going on. And so I thought, of course, follow the money. That's what I learned from. Probably my biggest takeaway from school was follow that money. And I found that there are very interesting funders to that excavation. One of them was a. The head of the. At the time, the Baron von Dissen. The head of the Dissen family dynasty.

[Danny Jones]

Never heard of him.

[Heather Lynn]

So his family bankrolled the Nazis. He was the son. Fritz Dyson, one of the patriarchs of the family, was the. The guy who literally gave the seed money to the Nazi party. So now why. It was troubling. Not just a Nazi connection, of course, but because he owned the second largest stash of antiquities in the world, second only to Queen Elizabeth ii. Whoa. And he was specialized in Mesopotamian antiques. And I'm like, that seems like a conflict of interest, doesn't it? Okay, he's funding this.

[Danny Jones]

He funded this excavation.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes, he did. Along with a couple other, like PricewaterhouseCoopers, some banking companies, and a big oil company called Gulf Sands Petroleum that has links to the Bushes. And it's American company located in Texas. Was located. It has a strange, shady background. But I thought, okay, why is a big oil company funding an excavation? Not even American researchers, mind you. This was a foreign project from the University of Manchester. And so they go. And I'm like, okay, that seems like a huge conflict of interest. So I'm looking around and trying to figure it out, and I noticed that some of the field reports were going straight to the board members of Gulf Sands Petroleum. And they had a logo for it, too, that looked like these two sort of Mesopotamian figures standing by, like a tree that almost looked like a caduceus. It was very symbolic and strange. And I'm like, gulf Sands Petroleum? That doesn't even make sense to me. But, hey, maybe it's some philanthropy or maybe it's something to cover their ass while they're trying to, you know, find oil or something, Right? But the whole thing just got weirder and weirder when I started to get reached out to by individuals who had a Vested interest in the region and the so called anunnaki. And I thought, well wait, this is just taking a strange turn because I think I'm busting some kind of a, I don't know, like a typical, like big business, corporation corruption thing. That's like funding something maybe for spying purposes. Because that is the, the history of archeology is deeply entwined in spycraft. Period.

[Danny Jones]

What?

[Heather Lynn]

Period? Yeah, you cannot have. Yeah, so why. And why. Right, well, okay, so that's because initially archaeology was not a science. It's kind of a new science science. Okay, Again, sorry to all the people out here who want to make it like a hard science. It's, it's still a soft science. It's a social science. There's mixed methodology. The thing is, is you use so many different hardcore scientific tools like lidar and things of that nature that it kind of takes on a veneer of like a more precise science. But at the end of the day you still have to have a human until their AI takes over to kind of of make the story, to piece it together. And that leaves a level of subjectivity, which is why people can argue about it so much, which is fine. You know, it's a soft science. A lot of things are not psychology is due. So, so it's just, it's, it exists over here, but before that it was called antiquarianism and it was literally a hobby of wealthy landed gentry. So what they did, and a great example of this, if anyone has ever seen, I guess the show and the films, Downton Abbey, it's like Masterpiece Theater. It's all like a soap opera essentially of all these wealthy people. And so what that has to do with it is the Highclere Castle is Downton Abbey. That's the actual name of the castle they used for filming. The actual lord of that abbey is the guy who funded King Tut's excavation. And when he went and did that, he carried back all of the stuff and set up the display in his, essentially his basement in what used to be called a cabinet of curiosities. Not a cabinet, but just, you know, a large room where you would rope it off. You'd have display cases and you'd have some time to have your rich pals come over and have the footman hand them a drink. And you're like, ahaha, look at this interesting exotic thing I found in Egypt. Hey, come over here lovey and taste one of these mummies. Because you know they ate the mummies, right? So strange things going on in the Basements of castles even then. And that happened in the basement of Downton Abbey High Clinical Castle in the, like a world war beginning World War I. Before World War I, we're talking about the turn of the century, so leading up from like the Victorian era into the transition after World War I.

[Danny Jones]

Okay.

[Heather Lynn]

And so what ended up happening was because of the war, this kind of boys club of taking all this, you know, these resources and going out and imagine, though, how expensive and laborious it would be to go across the seas and do like an archaeological excavation in say 1860. So you really could only be somebody super wealthy to do that and have also the interest in looting and subjugating or doing whatever it is. And that's who felt the. They would do that. So it was essentially the people who were like lords and whatever had titles in Britain and Europe. Of course, some Americans did it too, but it was really just a game for the elites in Europe. Well, at the turn of the century though, after World War I, overall socioeconomic conditions started to change for people. A lot of boys were killed in the war. People started to think, what are we doing? You know, they. Socialism was trying to bubble up a little bit. And there were, you know, early signs of protesting civil rights, that sort of thing. And a lot of these so called landed gentry, the gentlemen, they lost their properties, they lost their land. A lot of it became part of the public trust. So because of like socialist ideas, they would come in and take these large properties and say, you don't need like all this land. Give some of this land up. We'll make it a public park. Even now you have these beautiful great homes in the UK that are used for maybe like weddings and events and things and tourism. Some of the families still own them. But it was a great transition of that lifestyle, that old world lifestyle, going into like a new world order. And that happened during the World War I. And people were starting to buck trends. And the people who were involved in antiquarianism saw the writing on the wall and said, ooh, our little hobby is just not gonna look good to people. People who want us to be more open for us to start sharing our excavations. And so they kind of made deals with universities, museums and that sort of thing to donate all of the things that could have been in those cabinets of curiosities to have them on public display in the public trust. So they belong to the people now. Although when you go to those museums, you'll still see the labels beside that say, you know, generously loaned to us by the Whatever family, family, disson, family or whomever. But essentially what they needed to do was legitimize their hobby of going to other countries and not only taking things from them and studying. Now, in fairness, it's not as though some of these individuals didn't do work and didn't put out good work studying it. They had access and so they did. But at the same time, it was just a very different time and a different field altogether that legitimized itself much later and said it was a scientific endeavor, got wrapped up with universities and museums and was more answering to the public. But, but, you know, did it really ever, or has it always just been kind of a rich man's sport?

[Danny Jones]

What about the spying?

[Heather Lynn]

So the spying, because you are over in these other regions, right? It gives you great cover to be able to say, we're just doing research. We have to understand the culture, we have to live there. We have to do like participant observation or ethnography. We have to spe the language, we have to do all of that. Well, if you do that, it's not going to be wasted. The government's going to come in and well, fund a lot of this through the university systems, through the museums, through this whole thing. But that's why famous archaeologists like Gertrude Bell, ones that were kind of starting around the time of World War I before, where they are going to the Middle east, mostly Lawrence of Arabia. A lot of this had to do with going to the Middle east and redrawing the maps. They were called the kingmakers. They were the literal kingmakers. They would go and make deals with different heads of tribes and say, you know, we can make you king. But they were being supported by the government to do these things to redraw the lines of the map in the Middle east that early as part of a great project.

[Danny Jones]

So do you think some of these, these, these big oil executives and archaeologist types, do you think they had like a real interest in like ancient Sumeria and what was happening back then? Or do you think this was just all an excuse just to extract oil and get more money?

[Heather Lynn]

All of the above, because I think more than one thing can be true at once. So I think ultimately you have a general interest in the financial gains of it. But like many of these things, you'll find people who also have their pet projects that they want funded will have their own interests and those interest off in line, in my experience and opinion, stranger endeavors. So you see this, I think most notably with the Nazi on an Urbe, you know, they had the Whole section devoted to archaeology. They funded a lot of archeological excavations and research. They were doing that to, you know, what serve humanity for science and that sort of thing. But then also look for the Spear of Destiny and all of these weird things that would legitimize their power in their mind. So the individuals who were working at the Ahnenerbe, they weren't necessarily on board with trying to find a Spear of Destiny to give the Nazi superpowers, but they were there working. And so they're part of a greater machine. So likewise, the same thing in my view happened with the excavation at Telkhyber which was you have this academic industrial complex going on and it's being funded by, you know, people with ties to Nazi banking, people with ties to hoarding and collecting antiquities. And then you have the individual, say, professors or workers on the ground. They're not necessarily part of any kind of grand conspiracy. There's plausible deniability all around. But the whole thing just says there's something strange going on here and it's just not as clear as it, as it would seem. But, and all this is, this is readily available online too. You can go to the, you know, the, the Foreign Office and find it's all over the British records. I cite some of those materials and one of my books discussing just that whole like, relationship with spycraft and archaeology. It was used primarily as a cover for spying operations and in some cases still is, which is also why some archaeologists that I know have been detained in Turkey and places, not because they were spying, but because in other countries they're aware of the potential for spying. And so sometimes they will detain archaeologists who are just doing their jobs and say, let's ask some questions like why are you here? What are you doing? That sort of thing. So, wow. Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

Now you have something, I think, that draws other strange people into the mix. You have a convergence of ancient history, money, of course, the question of who gets to know the truth, and spycraft. And this starts to then draw the attention of other people. And those other people, to my surprise, were, I guess you could call occultists. And this is what I learned from this initial kind of work into the Anunnaki. So I go and I'm working in this kind of field, I guess, if you want to call it that niche. And I'm trying to figure out, like, why are, why is everybody so interested in. And I mean, I understand the Sumerians, they're a fascinating culture, but why is everybody so hung up on whether or not the Anunnaki are aliens? Like, what is going on with this? Why is this.

[Danny Jones]

Because the story sounds like it's aliens.

[Heather Lynn]

It sounds, it sounds like it's aliens. But it also has.

[Danny Jones]

Here's my problem with it, my big problem with this, and this goes with any history. I mean, you could talk about this with the Anunnaki and you can talk about this with jfk. The problem with history is that people that write history books write history books based on previous history books. Like, none of them go back to the original sources. And even the original. So the original sources are in a specific language that, like, you know, how many people actually dedicate their lives to actually translating that exact language? And then you, you extract the raw words, but those raw words don't translate to our meaning of those words. So there's so many barriers of, you got to get through. It's just like, like it's so hard. That's why there's so many different flavors of Satanism, because everyone has a different, like Geori as Prometheism, which is like a good thing. It's like the savior of humanity, which is also translated later to be Satan, which is an evil thing. Then you have like the carnival Satanists, like, you know, Anton La and those people. So like, this is like my overall frustration with this whole topic.

[Heather Lynn]

I preach. We're in a church. You are preaching.

[Danny Jones]

We are in a church.

[Heather Lynn]

Preach, preach into the choir. I love it. Absolutely correct. And then you get the, like Anton lavey cults of personality develop and then you'll get these like sycophantic people that will say it's either this or it's nothing. And so you find that most notably with the Zechariah Sitchin fans right now. So I'm looking at this and I'm like, I'm not. I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, sorry. I don't really think that aliens are coming down in like 1960s style spaceships with the nuts and bolts and landing here and doing all this stuff that just didn't work for me. But Sitchin wrote during a time where that was kind of in the cultural milieu after we supposedly went to the moon, right? So that was allegedly. So we were in that kind of mindset. He comes from that culture and he's writing about those things. So now it stays forever, as though that's what the Anunnaki are, which I think is a suspicious thing altogether. So I start looking into it and I did what you said, which was go back to the original text. Which now Sitchin and his ilk would say, well, nobody can read those. I can read those. Okay, this is true. There are many people who are skilled who go to school just for that. The late Dr. Michael Heiser was one of them. He had a website called sitchiniswrong.com I'm like, okay, you're just like calling that out. But there are a lot of people who can read and do read these things originally. But at the same time it's not like private information. You can go on and see the texts online, right? You can go there's Oxford has its own like dictionary things. You can, you can go research and do a little of your own work, do just to at least get some baseline idea and you can consult with people and talk to people and, and try to at least get some Sort of bearing. And so looking at that, even at like. So I would consider like Sitchin like a tertiary source because he's kind of still reading the secondary source because it's translation. So, so going back into that, I said, well, I'm disregarding that. I'm going to look at exactly what the Sumerians themselves said about those gods. It does sound like they came out of nowhere. Right. And so there's that and that captures the imagination. And there is what Samuel Noah Kramer, who is a legitimate Sumerologist, said was the Sumerian problem. And the Sumerian problem, which has still not been solved to this day, is how. How did this culture appear like just 200 years? We went from like semi settled hundred gatherers to what we call civilization. And their language has, has, is called a language isolate. There's no known language that it's related to and it just pops up out of nowhere. So it's like what is that about? Right. It's pretty interesting. And so looking into that though, and you do see they left a ton of texts because they. Well, history begins at Sumer was his book, because it literally does. History is the written record. And so they were the ones who as far as we know, invented. Right. I say as far as we know because that we don't know what we're going to find at like Gobekli Tepe and things like that. But in terms of having a huge corpus of literature, the cuneiform tablets have that because they were made on clay and there's more cuneiform tablets than there are Egyptian papyri. There's so much. So there's a lot to be known about them and a lot of it's been actually translated.

[Danny Jones]

When was that? That like geometric stone that has like writing on every side of it.

[Heather Lynn]

The Rosetta stone?

[Danny Jones]

No, it's called like the King's List or something.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, the Sumerian kings list.

[Danny Jones]

That's what that is. Yeah. Where it's on like multiple sides.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes.

[Danny Jones]

When was that one discovered?

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, do you know? Not, not off the top of my head, the exact date, but it's all stuff that's found in the 19th century, like mid-1800s.

[Danny Jones]

And it's dated to probably about 6,

[Heather Lynn]

so 20, early 20th, so 19.

[Danny Jones]

Okay.

[Heather Lynn]

Is that the one you're talking about?

[Danny Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that's it. So. But isn't it like one solid block that it has like writing on each side of it?

[Heather Lynn]

There is, yeah. See, that's why I thought you were talking about the Rosetta Stone.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, okay. Anyway, it was one. In one of your. One of your essays that you did, there was an image of it and I was interesting looking.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, I think it's the. Because there's many different ones. Are you talking about the one that's in an actual case in a museum? Yes, yes. So. Because that Kings list has been repeated over and over again. So those are, those are tablets and then they had some that are posted that way.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah. And. And the Kings list basically explains that, like, you know, that these people were living for hundreds of thousands of years and stuff.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. So that's like one of the mysteries of, is why. Why do these people live so long? Or. Or this sort of thing. And of course. And you know, if you don't know, you say aliens, but. Yeah. So what I found though, when looking at some of those stories about those that came from above or what have you, and the story, I'm sure you're familiar with the story, right. The idea is that something came to these Sumerians and then taught them agriculture and all of this, but also enslaved them, wanted to mine the atmosphere for gold, or wanted to mine our place for gold because they were losing it in their atmosphere. It's this entire like sci fi story. Right?

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

So. So I kind of did a more earthly analysis of it and looked at some of the stories that were the precursors to the basic Old Testament Bible stories, like the Noah's Ark, for instance. And this is one of the reasons why the school system didn't necessarily focus a lot on the discoveries during the period between the 19th century, early 20th century, because it was when they were being found, it was during this period of a little bit of a transition, but also it was very Christian oriented. And so the archaeologists and people who found these just didn't think the public needed to know. So they didn't hide it per se, but they just didn't advertise it. They were just like, we don't want to rock the world order. Let's just do our research and be done with it.

[Danny Jones]

Let's hide the original sources.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. Because what happens is when you follow those old stories, first of all, it puts the biblical stories back much further in time, and they are also very different. So the Noah's Ark story in particular paints a picture very vividly of an individual, a Noah type figure, who is adept at science and magic and sees signs in the sky that something's gonna happen. And he does not build a boat, but instead he gathers not his family either, but he finds all of the people from the civilization that were, were the most important scientists, what we would call scientists. So individuals who were good at all of the things that you would want if you were making a breakaway civilization. And then he gathered the animals of the steppe, not you know, two male lions walking up the boat and like the nursery rhyme thing show. But the animals of the steppe, the animals of the step were important because these would have been the animals that if you were a nomadic step tribe, you would have carried those animals with you, you for sustenance. They would have been something that you, you would want to bring them with you to make a caravan. A nomadic group of people who would say look, we're going to leave what we think may be some sort of cataclysm and we are going to get the animals of the steppe and we're out of here. And everybody else, you know, maybe you're going to stay, maybe you're going to go, whatever, come with us. But we're going to go and find dry land. And the reason for that is that on the Eurasian steppe where the this is proposed to have happened, if you bring ungulates with you, you are able to. It sounds sad. So like animals that are grass eating like the, maybe goats and you know, cows and that sort of thing so they could bring their sheep and goats with them. And when the times were tough and there's no food, you can bleed the animals animal and drink the blood and still keep the animal alive. That was a way that people had create. Yeah, so sounds mean but it's still something that some people practice today for that very reason. It's traditional and that's what they could have done.

[Danny Jones]

Another thing we do with humans in antiquity, I heard. Did I read that on one of your essays? I don't know, but that people used to drink the blood of the warriors or something to get like their, their warrior powers.

[Heather Lynn]

I have not written about that but I am very familiar with that. And yes, no, no, no, it's, it's totally a thing. And yes, they did that because there's like these different h. Hormones and things. So they thought, of course they didn't know they were the hormones. But later when people try to propose that hey, maybe we should start doing.

[Danny Jones]

So if you were some leader in antiquity, some noble, some noble person, you could literally take some warrior, some young 20 year old warrior guy, they would slash his throat and drink his blood.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so what they would do with these animals is they would cut them and you know, drink their blood. But also Use them for dairy. Dairy. And so the so and then if you needed to, you could slaughter some. But then you also had basically, you know, a sustainable thing going on where you have the animals that are going with you and they're going to make more of themselves. So it's a great plan. Instead of like, you know, prepping with your storable foods and all of that, you're like bringing like the living, you know, factory with you. So the idea is that it was essentially a breakaway civilization. It traces along the lines of the now just sort of magically it seems or coincidentally to the younger Dryas impact event. So the theory then is that that event happened and it caused great displacement of people because of rapid climate change events and a lot of these floods and things. And so people would have thought the whole world's flooding or you know, those stories kind of track. And then these individuals who made their breakaway civilization, who bring the animals of the steppe, who also would have been larger in stature because they're having animal protests, they then encounter, they go to Mesopotamia and they encounter the individuals who are there who are semi settled hunter gatherers with a culture, not a civilization. And their height would have been different, their stature was different, they appeared differently. Which then explains why the Sumerian texts say the perspective of they are the black headed ones or the Adama, meaning the red clay people. So now when you see this in Abrahamic religions, you'll see it be described as like, well, God made Adam from the clay of the earth and he made like a person. When you read it maybe from a more anthropological perspective and you look at the archeological evidence, you see that there are individual bodies that were excavated in the region that were first of all the size, they're smaller in stature, they're not getting the same animal protein, they're just, you know, what you'd expect from the human, what part specifically in what would have been modern day Iraq.

[Danny Jones]

Got it.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. So you have then people who are roughly about 5 foot 2, you know, smaller and their, their remains were painted red using the red specific red clay from that region. They were like a red ochre. And so it wouldn't be unreasonable to then make that leap to say, well we do observe people currently who do that. That's a very common practice is mud or ochre or things to paint the body. And so if you kind of look at it from that perspective, a more earthly one as opposed to like, you know, bleep, blah, bloop, they're coming from space and they're here to like, you know, get us. You see that like it kind of paints a picture of individuals who do not have dark hair. And this is where it gets to be like, well, maybe they're the Nordics and all that.

[Danny Jones]

They don't have dark hair.

[Heather Lynn]

They don't because. Or at least not black hair because they, they described themselves as the black headed ones and they were speaking on behalf of the gods in the writing when they say this is what they thought. They made that differentiator of we are the black headed ones. So that if you, so that right there says, well, if they have black hair and they do, why would you pull that out as a difference? And then you have the blue eye condition again. I know this gets to be all like, you know, Giorgiani's Nordics and this sort of thing, but you know, hey, shout out to Jason. So, but the thing is, it's, there are these little like tells, like they had all of their Sumerian statues that were divine, have blue eyes and that was something that people thought was cursed. The blue eye to this day, the evil eye. Right. It's a blue eye.

[Danny Jones]

We have actual Sumerian statues with blue eyes.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes. Lapis lazuli. Some of them don't have the eyes anymore because they were plucked out and stolen. But yeah, they were very big on lapis.

[Danny Jones]

And can you pull a picture of these up? I've never seen, I don't think I've ever seen them. Yes.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. So it's, so there's this, it seems like the story of a clash of different people coming together. And if you, if you take this just hypothesis, we'll say where there are these individuals who, they don't have dark hair, but the people on the ground call them. Yeah, there's one, the Lapis lazuli.

[Danny Jones]

What is that made out of? Lapis lazulius is a, is a Blue Ridge rock.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. Oh, I should have brought that for you today.

[Danny Jones]

That's incredible looking.

[Heather Lynn]

I have a cun cylinder seal made of that.

[Danny Jones]

Wow.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. Yep.

[Danny Jones]

And these date back to the Sumerians.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh yeah, yeah, the Sumerians.

[Danny Jones]

That's amazing they survived that long.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh yeah, yeah. We, we have a lot of interesting things left from them. Which is also why a lot of people will pick this up and say, I feel like I've not learned enough about them. What's going on? And back in, when I, you know, had my class, I used to ask the kids, you know, 20 somethings, I was like, how many have heard of the Egyptians? Of course, you know, how many have heard of the Sumerians? A few. Mostly because of shows like Ancient Aliens or podcasts. But then of course that comes with the whole. And here's what I know about them. But then it's like this whole Sitchin narrative and it's like, okay, so. But there's a lot to be known about the Sumerians and their gods, and it's just not, I think, put out there. Well, so that was something that, you know, I'm looking at the story and I'm like, it sounds very human. They were also called the Shining Ones. So were they shining? Now this comes to your point, a very good point, about how do we know, like we. It. When you translate something, it's like if I were to say, you know, Danny's so cool and I wrote that down. And later they're like, well, clearly Danny's body temperature has to be, you know, fairly low in comparison to. It's like, you don't even know what I'm saying, you know. Yeah, so it's. We have so many problems with translation or interpretation. So that's just, you know, an element of doubt right there. But if you do look at what seemed to be going on, you have these individuals, they come over, they're called the Shining Ones. Some people have said it's because they were like Gnostic, because they were serpent, like, because they had, you know, all these features, they were very smart. Some people said it's because they mastered a metallurgy. Already. So, you know, it could very well be if you were a, a person who lived and you were, you know, used to your semi settled hunter gathering lifestyle and you saw a caravan of individuals who looked different, like nobody you've ever seen before. And they're wearing perhaps something shiny, you might just stop and go, wow, now what do we know from history? Like, really when that happens, okay, colonization, it never ends well for those, like, people that the people kind of meet. I know that's, you know, people are tired of hearing about like colonizers and stuff, and I get it, but this is like a legit thing that happens and we can't deny that. If somebody comes in and they're like a little more powerful or have an advantage, they're gonna be like, hey you, why don't you work for me? That's what ends up happening. And that's why I think that the Sumerian, like, understanding that point of our history and the Sumerians is probably the single most important thing we should be looking at historically. Sounds like an overstatement. But it's like, hear me out, because this is the part where it all begins. It all begins there that we know, of course. And it all begins as in civilization, economic influence and control and the priest class. So if you are a group of people and you see these other people and you're like, you know, we want this land, we're gonna make this land ours. Well, you know, but these are good worker people. So what can we do? Well, you can't communicate, but you can intimidate. You can kind of cargo cult them. Like, look, we know magic, we know. And in fact, we're going to plant this here and watch it grow. And they can start now having that what we see always with these cultures. Like, you do what I say because there's an eclipse coming, guys, you know, you don't want anything bad to happen. So it's that power. But then in order to do that though, you have to have a mediator. And that mediator is the priest class. That is the class of individuals who can read and write and communicate. And they go in between the two. And that's important because you don't want to go in like, you know, these, these people are gonna take over. And you say, look at these lovely hunter gatherer types. I think we'll train them and make them part. No, you say, okay, knowledge is power. We need to have an intermediary and we are going to subjugate them. And that's clearly what the Sumerian texts even say. They said they were enslaved. They said they weren't treated well. And when you see the accounts of these gods, I mean, it's not like you'd want to have a what would Jesus do? Bracelet of these gods in the ancient days, right? You know, what would Zeus do? I mean, because the answer's not great. He's gonna, gonna be ripping and eating people. It's just really ugly.

[Danny Jones]

Right?

[Heather Lynn]

And so that's what they were tending to do, though. Very human like things. Then we get the very beginnings of ideas of worship, the like and the word of it actually meant to work for. So if you, if you remove some of the context, and this is why I think it's so important to push back even further than say the ancient Greeks or the ancient Egyptians or anything is to say what were some of the seeds of this civilization here. And what they were doing was they have actual recipes, I mean, like, like books of how to prepare your sacrifice. The gods didn't want them boiled. They wanted them roasted over an open flame. They liked the smell of it, it made them kind of come to it. They had a whole set of guidelines of who could breed with whom. So the idea of like, did the Anunnaki manipulate the human genome and. Yeah, they did, they very much did. Did they do it with like Mr. Wizard's World style beakers and things? No, they didn't. They did it through good old fashioned animal husbandry. They had eugenics, told us who we could breed with and who we couldn't.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

Right.

[Danny Jones]

Like, it was in. In Sumeri was inky, I believe. And then in Greek, it was Prometheus who, like, created humanity and then actually tried to save humanity by going against Zeus. And it's just like. And then I think it's Quetzalcoatl in the Mayan story. Yeah, but, yeah, no, it's just fascinating how, like, it's just changed and it makes no sense in the Bible.

[Heather Lynn]

No sense at all. Because it's a Bible is not a book. It is a collection of books that, you know, it's a library. So it has to be read as such, not in a linear way. So that is. So you mentioned Enki, and that's kind of an important component to this because he is a Promethean figure. So in that sense, it was like Enlil would have been like the equivalent to say, like a Yahweh, like a storm God, a desert storm God that, you know. But the edict was these Anunnaki, the pantheon, the original 12, they were not allowed to bring breed with the people because they were considered their animals.

[Danny Jones]

Right.

[Heather Lynn]

They were the part of the farm. They were domesticating them. They were making them work, worship work for they were doing these things. So they taught them agriculture, but only in the service of them, of course. They got some just like, you know, cash crops and all of this. This whole system of an economic system of saying, okay, you're going to have the benefits of a civilization. Okay, we're going to protect you from the animals. We're going to protect you. We're going to have law, legal professions even. They created the idea of a profession. So the Sumerians were known for, you know, all of these different inventions, but are they, you know, it's good, but at the same time, it's like the trappings of civilization. So they taught the priest class how to be an intermediary. They weren't allowed to then go up to this temple. The priest had to do it. So there was this, like, gap between the regular folks and these new gods or these living gods. Now something, though, that I find to be a little, maybe I would say supernatural, because I don't throw the whole idea out completely. I mean, because there are some strange things. But I think a lot of the people pushing this Anunnaki agenda, if you will get wrong, is that when you Google Anunnaki often, you'll Find these images of these winged beings with like bird faces and things like that. And those are not technically anunnaki. So Anunnaki is a word kind of like ball, kind of like lord. It means, means princely blood. It means of this certain offspring. So as a result of that, there's like 40 plus Anunnaki. But most of the time we focus on like the 12 pantheon or whatever. And so the word gets thrown around a lot. But the Apkallu are the other beings that sort of. They're like literally referred to as semi biological entities in the Sumerian text texts. And they're the ones that look different semi biological. So it's like they are described as coming from the ocean, maybe coming, materializing both in the real world, but then not. They're very specter like or sort of dense, not dense, which is. You don't see that explained with the Anunnaki. They're very much like individuals. They have effects on the world. They make crops, they make rules, they do all these things. But then you have these upcoming. And when I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, well, what are these things? And it's very old. And on that Sumerian kings list, there's the writing that will say like, this is the king, and yeah, they live forever, but like also a sage was assigned to them. Like, and then eventually that kind of dissipates. But there's this old tradition where it was like this idea that you had a sage and the sage was the Apkallu, the seven sages. And those were associated with the seven Pleiades. So it was a celestialized concept. And it kind of is, I would say, like a prototype of a genie or a daemon or something to that effect. Where these, these kings had advisors, but these advisors were like channeled and they were accessed through altered states. And that's what led me to the recent book I did on the altered states of the Sumerians, because they actually have evidence of, of them being very much involved in that activity, even though not a lot of attention is given. For instance, there's Sumerian cuneiform tablets called mushroom tablets. And they're literally shaped like mushrooms and they have cuneiform going all the way around them. And most of the time. So when you say tablet, you can think of like, you find like, maybe like people will think of Moses in the old movie holding up these great big tablets. Tablets are very small. They can be very small. That's why you, you can like take so many and eluding. So sometimes People take bags or out of them or like just tons of these little tablets. So they can vary in size but also tablet would indicate like a, the shape of something like that you would write on that way. So it's surprising sometimes to people that they actually had these shaped tablets. They were molded from clay to look like mushrooms. So some of these. Yeah, some of them are more mushroom like than others. Some of those are.

[Danny Jones]

What are you calling them, Steve? Mesopotamian foundation cones. Yeah, that's what, that's what the Google said.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

So maybe I can type in like mushroom. Yeah, that one certainly looks like a mushroom. The Sumerian, that one in the middle on Etsy.

[Heather Lynn]

So because two in Sumer and then that's. The civilization lasted a very long time. So they ended up becoming these what would be called foundation. Yeah. So they ended up getting conical.

[Danny Jones]

Wow, that's wild.

[Heather Lynn]

But there are in the Berlin Museum though, there's better examples of them looking a little more mushroom like insofar as they're not as conical. And so I have some examples of those in the book and those. Now the function of both of these is important because they.

[Danny Jones]

That's crazy. Look at that one in the top right Steve.

[Heather Lynn]

Now what's, what is wild about it is. So they undergo some changes because the Sumerian culture did. They went in, I mean it wasn't like a monolith. It was thousands of years from like Sumer to you know, Akkadian, Babylonian, etc. And so they kept cuneiform. So it looks as though it's like the same, but it's not. And you can see in the cuneiform it gets like, like proto cuneiform has some symbols with it that you know. And then it goes differently. But it of kind, it kind of is easy to think of these things as being all from Sumer. And that's to the point of the Apkallu not looking like the Anunnaki and vice versa. So these mushroom tablets though, and why they were like for the foundation, they were placed into the foundations of buildings, like temple structures. And around them would be prayers and hopes and things. So you would have this consecrated and then you would put this message into the temple. And similar to how some people when they go to the wailing Wall will put a little script or prayer into that wall. So that's a very ancient tradition. But what they did was they took these tablets, these mushroom shaped ones and they would plug them into the Sumerian temple walls. Now if you just kind of, I mean when you take that and Other evidence of what they were doing in terms of their recipes, some of their medicines.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah. What do we know about the medicines and the drugs they were using?

[Heather Lynn]

It's pre. Well, in terms of the medicine, it's very well developed. There's like.

[Danny Jones]

Well, medicine and drugs. At least in Greek, there was no difference.

[Heather Lynn]

No difference here either. In fact, the line is so blurred because they mix it up with the priests, like an exorcist. So if in this case, in that time, you had. The priest was the physician. So they didn't differentiate between body and mind. And so they didn't have that clinical sense, although they did have interesting clinical. Clinical features, like malpractice insurance. So that's where we get, like, an eye for an eye. Because if you were performing, like, cataracts removal, the official law said if you did it in the wrong eye or did something, you're gonna have to be blinded in one of yours. So that was. Yeah, so they didn't mess around. So. And they were doing advanced techniques. They even. They invented pills. So back then, I mean, like five, 6,000 years ago, they had pills. Yeah. So they were. They were looking at this as not like a body mind split. So what they did was they would have the priest and the priest would come to your home and like, to perform an exorcism. And what's interesting about that is very similar to the exorcisms that you would see in films now. So there's about 600. There's over 600 medical texts in the British Museum alone that describe all of the different incantations and recipes for all of these different medicines and plants that they were using. Using. And so they would have. Essentially, the priest would come and they would look at a person who maybe was like, running a fever or they were using some sort of profanity or they did something wrong, and they would have to go and badger that patient for the name of the demon. Very similar to what exorcists are shown to do. Like, what demon? What is your name?

[Danny Jones]

You know, Right, Like Bob Larson does.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes, exactly. So you would do that in order to find out, like, a diagnostic sense of. Okay, so is now you have this demon in you. We know that this demon responds to this medicine or perhaps the pouring of a libation, like beer. Beer was a big one. So put out a beer, put out some whatever and, you know, pray over the body for so long and try to give that exorcism. So similar things that people do now

[Danny Jones]

for exorcism, the power of belief. When People, somebody believes something is very real and you give them drugs. It seems like, like there's like a. Something that happens. Like give somebody who doesn't believe in something a drug, and then somebody who does believe something, a drug, the same drug. Like, if they really believe they're going to turn into a zombie and be controlled by like a voodoo sorcerer, like, that will actually happen to them.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

And even with the stuff like with Bob Larson, these exorcists doing these big, these big presentations or these big, like, conferences where people, they're. They're. He's pulling the devil out of people and they're like talking like, like saying all this crazy. Like this person really believes the devil is inside her and it's like compelling her to like, do this and talk like this. What is that?

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, that's, you know. Yeah, it's. It's very powerful. And to watch it is. Yeah. It makes you wonder too, about what actually a demon is. And that's. That's a way that I've approached a lot of the work is like when it came to Stargates, for instance, when people are like, is there a Stargate? Is there a Stargate? I'm like, well, first of all, what is a Stargate? Because if you imagine Stargate SG1 and there's some big, like, apparatus in the desert, you know, probably not. But what is a Stargate? What are these things? And I think that's an important thing to start questioning or what are these terms? Because Hollywood has given us a whole view of the ancient world that maybe isn't true. Like the pyramids being, you know, not in crumbles, but of course being polished white limestone with gold caps or, you know, a lot of the films that show ancient Greece already being in ruins, when really all of those Greek statues, statues were painted vividly, almost garishly. So. Yeah. And so have you seen those painting, what the statues in Greece looked like when they were painting?

[Danny Jones]

I'm not sure.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, there's something. Yeah, there's great examples. So now if you look at.

[Danny Jones]

You're saying they were painted over later. No, they were painted originally.

[Heather Lynn]

So when you imagine like the quintessential, like ancient Greek world, you see like statues of white and the columns are white and everything's just sort of. But the whole thing was painted. Painted.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, really?

[Heather Lynn]

There you go. Yeah, that's how they looked originally.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, interesting.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. Yeah. Really? That one makes. Makes Caesar look a little like Mark Zuckerberg.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

[Heather Lynn]

Little less impressive. And when he's painted like that, but yes. Yeah. So that's the real. If you were put in a. In a time machine and sent back to ancient green Greece, that's what it looked like. Not like Ray Harryhausen's Clash of the Titans, where it was already in ruin. Although, you know that. That was fun. But that's the kind of subtle influence, though, very important, but subtle influence that Hollywood has had. So. Yeah, yeah. Because of that, we have kind of an idea already of what was going on back then, but we really. We don't. So in the sense of. Of these mushroom tablets and all of these different things that they were doing, they were pretty advanced in their knowledge of plant medicine and that sort of thing. And they were really into the poppy. So that was something that. If you look at the little rosettes that are often on this ancient art, this motif of the Anunnaki and so on, it looks like, well, just little flowers or something like that. And people have chalked it off as just. Oh, they're just like ornamental or whatever. Yeah, Some of those are. Well, some of those are actual rosettes. Those are my Greek ones. Specifically the Sumerian. Yeah. If you look at that. Yeah. So those wrist watches of the gods. Now there's the rosettes on the nails. Because what they had, what they were depicting there was the poppy.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, really?

[Heather Lynn]

And what they're holding too, there's some of those, like the Anunnaki statues, if you look at, like the Anunnaki. So now this is interesting because, see this wristwatch of the gods thing that a lot of people talk about? I've actually found the real wristwatches. I have them up on my sub stack or somewhere. But they're gold, they're beautiful. And they're not washed watches, but the

[Danny Jones]

actual ones that were used in Sumeria.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. And they're beautiful. So the reason that they were sort of not on display is because of the looting. So in 19. Yeah. So there was a great excavation.

[Danny Jones]

And they were just decorative.

[Heather Lynn]

That's all they were decorative. But they had an important decorative motif on them that included these apkallu doing what appeared to be something called the whole gil. Right. Which was the anointing painting of the king. So back to that seven sages thing like this. This indicated that they were using perhaps opium and other things to commune with these entities. Right. The Sumerian mushroom tablets that they had, they were identifying the mushroom as a conduit, as a mediator to the gods. This was over and over again. They were very much into altered States, um, they, their beer was different than the beer that we have now. They had drinking songs and they really were just about being in an altered state in very many ways.

[Danny Jones]

Wow.

[Heather Lynn]

And yeah. So these wristwatches, they so called, they're just cuffs, but they're gorgeous and they're beyond what anyone thought was capable at the time of people making. They have gold and lapis and very intricate design.

[Danny Jones]

And it symbolize the poppy.

[Heather Lynn]

They symbolize the poppy. In the middle of it was the blue eye. So like the Nazir sort of thing there was the blue eye and around it is this motif of this little like Apkalu thing. And he's anointing, it's the pine cone and the handbag. And so that was what the king or queen got to wear after they were I guess, anointed. We don't know. So but this was all found in the queen. Queen's tomb at Nimrud. And that was found by an Iraqi archaeologist, Professor Hussein, who stumbled upon the remnants of what the. Yeah, what the British. He stumbled upon the remnants of what was left after a western excavation. And he thought, you know, I think there's something else here. Sure enough, he located the second largest gold hoard to King Tutu tomb. Tons of gold, beautiful gold. Whole headdresses, these cuffs, lots of like, almost like table scatter. But they were like little flowers, these poppies. And I say they're poppies because he said they were poppies. So he puts out this book where what he did was he cataloged everything and he published the book in English and in Arabic. And he's a legitimate professor, he had a whole team. He was working for the museum. So he's doing this work and then the war happens and, and the looting happened and all of that was lost. Most of it was lost. And you can only imagine where it went or what happened to it. And the professor was lost as well. There we go. There's a good version of it there.

[Danny Jones]

Wow, beautiful. Now why do people try to connect the pine cone with the pineal gland?

[Heather Lynn]

I think because it looks like it.

[Danny Jones]

Some people say it looks like an artichoke too.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, I think it's just simp. I think it's simply because it looks like it. Like the kidney beans weren't allowed to be eaten by the Pythagoras.

[Danny Jones]

And what was the significance of it?

[Heather Lynn]

The pine cone? Yeah, I'm not sure of the significance. I think it's true.

[Danny Jones]

It was the pine cone in the handbag, right, you said?

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, well, in that Particular culture that it was, the anointing and the use of it to cultivate the latex from the opium poppy. Okay, yeah, so that was. Or sometimes fertility. You know, they would use it to help fertilize the plants because, again, very agricultural in nature. So they're using all of these different medical plants and things, and they use the poppy. And the poppy was used not just for pain relief, but they were apparently mixing it with something else. But it was called the joy plant, and so they knew its effects and they knew that it was revered. And this professor who also disappeared, he was last seen in Mosul.

[Danny Jones]

Hussein.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. We don't know what happened to him. There's very little evidence that he. I mean, the last correspondence was that something wasn't going right and that he had to hide out in. So there is a book, though, that is at the University of Chicago that has a lot of these images and things, and so it catalogs it. But most importantly, when he's describing these, he's describing them as poppy. As a matter of fact, of course, it's poppy. And this is what we know. Whereas over time, we ended up calling it something else. It was originally agreed that it was the poppy because you see that in the ancient or the earlier works where, you know, archaeologists at the time or sumerologists were like, okay, this is a poppy. And then you see those references now, not only, like, disregarded, but they'll just say they're flowers or florets or, you know, common motif, or sometimes pomegranates, which, if you see they're holding a stock with these, like, bulbs on them, they're not pomegranates. They're too small. But they're identical to the opium poppy. And I. It's probably because they don't want to reinforce the idea of drug use, but.

[Danny Jones]

Right. Well, then you have the Eleusinian mysteries.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

That were happening in ancient Greece where there was these rituals that involved drugs, sex. You know, only the wealthy people went because they had to bring, like, offerings. They had to bring, like, animals or whatever to. To sacrifice. And I think it was for, like, a week or something that they would do those. Those rituals. And, you know, that happened for a long. What was it, a thousand years that that was happening in Elusas. It's crazy.

[Heather Lynn]

It's crazy, but it's kind of the. The. The typical way that humans kind of operate. It's just now we're under this illusion that we're all just, you know, buttoned up with a suit on and we're not doing that anymore. But if you think about some of the wild stuff the Nazis were into, and at the time, if you were, you know, an educated person in Berlin and you looked at these guys in their Hugo Boss uniforms thinking, oh, they look pretty spiffy and they're bringing me great economic value and I think I'm onto this. You would not for a minute think, yeah, and then there's Himmler in a castle, like, all dressed like some kind of druid, doing some sacrifice. Or you wouldn't think all of that because you'd be like, what are you talking about? So, you know, nowadays, think. It's easy to think. You know, you look at our political leaders now and they're wearing their suits and ties, and you would think, they're not at Eyes Wide Shut parties, are they? It's like, and now we're kind of thinking differently. But yeah, so there's always been this underlying strangeness, if you will, and that's,

[Danny Jones]

I don't know if, like things like, I don't know, I, I, I have no clue if that kind of stuff was forbidden like that back then in antiquity, right. Would they look at that like, oh, what are you doing this weekend? I'm going to go get high as and have an orgy. Like, maybe that wasn't frowned upon. I don't know.

[Heather Lynn]

It depends on the, the time and the culture. But in a lot of cases it wasn't. And it was just different the way that it was or it was regulated in such a way, like, like in the Sumerian example, you have temple prostitution, and it's hard to, like, make that sacred because you just think of a street hoe. Like, you know, like, how is that a, how is a, how's a regular old, like, corner, like a, something sacred in it? Well, I guess because we're implanting our view of what that is, right. Retroactively at the. So it's something completely different. It was this idea that you had this female who could essentially become possessed. So then you could go have sex with the God. You could commune with a God. And so she would live at the temple. Not forever. They would take Girls sometimes like 12, 13, and then they would, this would happen throughout different cultures in some way or shape or form too. So this isn't a one off. This is another one of those examples of like, springs up in a lot of different cultures over different times. But the Sumerian context, it would be, there was a, a girl, she would be taken or, you know, sold, however, to be in this position of the temple priestess at the age of 12, sometimes, I mean, it's hard. Yeah. If you can bleed, you can breed kind of thing, right?

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

Like, different thinking. So definitely tragic and terrible, but they would take the. The kid and. And have them learn the arts of making a man happy. And they were not themselves, though. And this is part of the excuse. It wasn't like, this is your child anymore. This isn't a girl. This is now a vessel, this an avatar. And so she would go and stay at this temple. And these temples were on the riverbank. And so what you'd have is. Is the farmers who were, you know, getting their grains, they would get on a boat and they would go up the current of the river and they would stop at the temple. They would go into the temple and bring their portion, like the tax, essentially what it was that they were having to give to these leaders of grain. And they, in exchange got a token. This is where money comes from, though. So the token had an image of grain and the goddess on it. The token wasn't meant to buy things. There was no free market. It was just, this is. We're getting this token meant you get one free ride with the mistress upstairs.

[Danny Jones]

Wow.

[Heather Lynn]

So now what you get for that is. It wasn't just sex because maybe you had a wife at home, right? You're not there for the sex. You're there for communing with God, because she was the thing now that brought God. And so you. This was a holy, sacred event that you would go up there, here's your token, and you were going to experience God and then you'd be like, you know, so that's the currency, that's of trade. This is why, you know, money, sex, power.

[Danny Jones]

That's the first documented case of, like, actual exchange of money.

[Heather Lynn]

Tokens of token of coinage.

[Danny Jones]

And this was in. When was this? Roughly.

[Heather Lynn]

So this is older than that. Ancient Greek. This is. No, this is in sumer. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why I'd focus on. On that a lot is because, you know, these are great. But then when you go to. It would have been like an old shekel. If you look up a shekel, we're talking thousands of years before Greece. And they were doing very similar things. And it gets, you know, no pun intended, but buried. But it's in a lot of ways, in my view, because that was where the ruling elite concept even began that we know of. I mean, again, who knows, right? But what we have from the historical record is a very, very detailed account of how to be administrators, how to rule over individual people in your society as though they are part of your farming operation, as though they're literal cattle. This is the very, I think, a very important distinction because when you look at egalitarian societies generally that come together from like tribal unions or you have all these different ways of ruling. But when civilization, civilization as, as described in an academic sense, having sciences, having laws, having all of these different things, making art, whatever, when you have civilization come together, you have all these strange features too of the money, the power, the. It just, it's. I don't want to say it's a disease because, you know, we're living in a civilization. I don't think I'd want to like, run off like the bohemians did in the German woods, take off all my clothes and try to live there and see what happens over the winter. I mean, I like seeing civilization. However, you can still acknowledge that there was a great change going on at the time where it changed in an effort to collect power and use the people at the bottom of the pyramid, literally the step pyramid, as a resource for you. You didn't kill those people. You enslave them and you use them as a resource, both physically for their labor and then also sometimes spiritually, at least in your religious viewpoints, you would harness things from them, their energy, their power. And so, and to do that you had to put yourself at the top of a pyramid. And then you had to have the intermediaries, that priest class, the middleman, and that relied upon you not knowing how the sausage was made. If you were illiterate, if you didn't know, you know, the guy behind the curtain, I mean, that's how it was. It was all about knowledge being power. Which is why back to Ani, those figures, Ani was that Promethean figure because Anky felt bad for how these, like, humans were being treated and came down and gave the wisdom of Ani. That was a thing. So the thing was, I'm going to give you the wisdom of Ani. And.

[Danny Jones]

And his brother was Noah, right?

[Heather Lynn]

Enlil.

[Danny Jones]

Well, I mean, in like. Like his dualion was an. Was Enki's brother or. No, not brother, son. Dualon wasn't that inky son. And then he was like the Noah figure that is in the Bible who gets the boat and like brings everybody on the boat and goes at. Tries to restart civilization.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, it's very similar. So you have. Then Enlil is like the Yahweh type figure. And then you have the Anky and Ani figure is kind of Promethean and does this whole thing. But then that's where I, the division happens. And this is where you enter like Nephilim talk because then once those gods start breeding with the non gods, then you know, it dilutes the gene pool. So, so it was, it was kind of laying out this idea of like eugenics early, like we're going to keep it here in the family, like this breakaway civilization, we're going to keep it royal bloodlines intact. And then, and then it merged and so later you see that that isn't how it happens anymore of course. It was just like we go into different invading people come in and the whole culture develops differently. But in those very early, early years it appears to be the meeting of two different cultures, one who took over the other and instituted what they were used to from before the, perhaps the younger Dryas, which was an advanced civilization, maybe not spaceships advanced, but advanced in the sense that they had art and sciences and the ability to understand hierarchical rule. And so they basically, when they made a breakaway civilization, they civilized the people there. And so you see, that's what you see though when they reference that 200 years, like how did people go from this to that? Well, they went from, you know, hunter gathering to buildings, a whole like system of being very litigious, very degree oriented.

[Danny Jones]

They merged with this other civilization.

[Heather Lynn]

The other civilization kind of took them over, use them as like cattle.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And, and then eventually everybody assimilated into that. So, so but I think the important takeaway, and I really do think that this is part of the reason that they're, I don't know, maybe it's just my conspiracy theory, you know, hat going full time, but like I got to put on the tinfoil hat for this. But I just feel, feel like there has been an effort to keep people ignorant to things like economic history, like the Sumerians like mathematics because the, one of the big things that the Sumerians and later Babylonians, of course that whole group of people were known for was their advanced mathematics. And we wouldn't necessarily think that so advanced that professors there have been researchers in peer reviewed journals that you know, were working really hard to try to crack a case on a geometry problem that even his grad students couldn't help with. And he ends up spending a lot of time, I think over like 14 years he was digging around the British Museum until finally there was like a tablet there and he's looking at it and he's like holy shit. They figured it out and it was like the answer was right in front of him. And you see this happen a lot where people will go back to those cuneiform tablets to try to help them figure out math problems. Now even while we have like computers and AI and things.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

The level of mathematic knowledge that, that they had was astounding. So it's like, well, what would that have to do with any. Like, why are they hiding that? Well, remember the name of the game if you're on the top of the pyramid is to keep those at the bottom ignorant so that you can stay on top of that pyramid. And that's done through, you know, essentially illiteracy and, and, and Right. Which also is like you, you can't read numbers. So numerical illiteracy and things like that. So I think that's, that's looking at the model, the Sumerian model, you just start to see all of that.

[Danny Jones]

Kind of the funny saying is numbers don't lie, but words do.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, that's very well said because language

[Danny Jones]

is like the written word and stories are inherently, it's deceptive. It's like it's a tool of deception completely.

[Heather Lynn]

And so then math could be the truth. That's what the Pythagoreans thought was that the only thing real was the number. And so that was like a whole, you know, cult in and of itself. And that's been, I think the, you know, go kind of going back though to the idea of like, well, why, like how did this all come about, like going into the occult and, and all of this. It was essentially that these subjects I found over time drew the attention of people in positions of power. And I thought that's funny. So I mean, I could imagine you get emails like this though too, given your subject matter. We'll get emails from people who claim this or say they want to connect for this reason or that reason. And so, so sometimes though, I got some emails and this was early on, like t 10 years ago where somebody say something interesting or you should read this book or read that book. Sure. And then I get interesting pictures, like can you tell me what this tablet says or can you point me in a direction? Sometimes I would see these pictures a couple times and it would be high def and it would be in somebody's house, like in a full on museum case. But you can see this is like a palatial estate somewhere in the Middle east. Like, oh, you have these in your private collection. Okay, I don't know. Sure. But then, and I noticed that some people would start to reach out to me, offering to take me to Iraq to look for different things. They were wrapped up with a lot of different. Like, we talked. Mentioned Jason Dhorjani. I know he came on here and discussed somebody called the Londoner, if you remember him, discussing.

[Danny Jones]

I don't remember this.

[Heather Lynn]

So I.

[Danny Jones]

He's been on at least three times.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of the times he was on, I think that was the first time I. I even saw the show or heard. I heard him talking about the Londoner. And I had, like, a record skip moment because I was like, I know that guy. I reached out to Jason. I was like, jason, I think this is the Londoner. He's like, I think we should.

[Danny Jones]

The Londoner.

[Heather Lynn]

The Londoner.

[Danny Jones]

Remind me what it's all about.

[Heather Lynn]

So that one. It's a whole thing that. I think the person who best describes that situation is Professor Benjamin Teitelbaum. And I'm sure everybody's probably tired of me, like, promoting Ben's book, but Ben wrote the. One of the best books to kind of, I think, break through the normies and, like, get people to understand that, like, there's an occult issue here in our contemporary period. And that book is called Bannon's War for Eternity. Right, Exactly. So I'm like, okay, hear me out, people. I know it's a book about Sloppy Steve, and it's kind of like passing. We're bored with all this stuff.

[Danny Jones]

He's a very interesting character.

[Heather Lynn]

He is a very interesting character, and Ben did a very good job. He's a ethnicist.

[Danny Jones]

What do you name this again? I'm sorry.

[Heather Lynn]

Sorry. It's Benjamin Teitelbaum. And I don't know. I'm sorry, Ben, if it's Teetlbaum or Teitelbaum. Sorry about that. But the book is called Bannon's War for Eternity, so definitely recommend that book. That will get into filling in a lot of the gaps. But essentially, that book basically shines a light on the darker side, if anyone needed a darker side to some of those people. But we'll say the darker side, as in the occult side side. Because it may come as a surprise that these individuals are often involved in maybe ritual, magic, or at least they have an interest in it. They have connections to those things.

[Danny Jones]

I can see him in a robe, doing a seance.

[Heather Lynn]

The disheveled hair. Yeah. So he's. So, you know, that. That was something where I started piecing together. Why is everybody so interested? I say everybody. Okay. Curse of knowledge. Not everybody. But why are there very particular people who have an interest in geopolitics and all of these topics, yet they're interested in anunnaki bloodlines? That seems kind of crazy. And of course, once you get to a point where you have a lot of money, sometimes you have too much money and time on your hands and so you can get a little crazy. But if you're rich, you're eccentric, if you're poor, you're crazy. So they're eccentric now. But I noticed that and it just got me more and more interested because as I said initially I was studying Western esoteric paracism, but and some of the work of like Ultra Hanengraph and Amsterdam and that with my masters and my advisors were sort of like, you know, how about we just do something a little. And I'm like, I just want the paper, let's just go. But I had, I did, I put

[Danny Jones]

a little bit right.

[Heather Lynn]

That was exactly what it was. And I'm like, I'm not fighting this, I'm just getting through it. So. But I took like the relevant angle and just sort of focused on the economic history component of it. But my interest was it was always in occulted knowledge, rejected knowledge in that sense. Like why does some information get to stay in our corpus or our canon and how come some doesn't? Who gets to make that decision? As we know now, Robert Maxwell does or did. Like that was a big part of it. Which is like, that's a crazy story. That's crazy.

[Danny Jones]

Why do you call it Pergamon Press? Throne of Satan?

[Heather Lynn]

Uh huh. Yeah. Who knows, right? It's like words just don't have any meaning or power. Symbols. Right? I mean we live in a world of symbols and it's just like what they say, hidden in, in plain sight. So. And that doesn't mean, of course everything's nefarious, but it just does mean that things are inspired by, you know, people are inspired. And the word inspire comes from the Latin inspirare and it means specifically when a deity blows life into you, it breathes into you. And so for you to be, it's like expire or respire. So if you're inspired by something, then you're just, you know that that thing, whatever it was, just impregnated you. Yeah, pretty much. And so, you know, that tells a lot about a person. Like maybe they name their companies or what they name any of that. So yeah, so the question of like, well, why does some information get to be out there and Other information doesn't. So I just started, like, pulling at that thread for a long time and realized that, wow, okay. So I think this whole Anunnaki question is a little more serious than I had originally thought. I think it has more to do with the quest for legitimizing bloodlines and the notion of blood and soil and the notion of who gets the divine right to rule. And it has more to do with that level of, say, occulted curiosity or what have you than it really does about anything interesting archaeologically. But those people who may have those alternative interests, they also have the money and the power to donate or have foundations and trickle down that through. And so that's why not everybody who's out there searching or doing this kind of work has anything to do with that. But you have to look at sometimes the motivations of the people who may be at the top, who.

[Danny Jones]

I find it so interesting that Bannon, as rich as he is, still does a daily, like, talk show that no one watches. You know, that guy started Seinfeld. Yeah, he gets Seinfeld checks every month. Like, he was one of the people who did the deal for Seinfeld. Like, yeah, why are you. He's just a bizarre. And some of the stuff that he was involved in, you know, like, with the early banking stuff and the people that he was wrapped up with, like, very early on, before he met Epstein, it's just very weird. It's a.

[Heather Lynn]

It is weird.

[Danny Jones]

It's a rat's nest of intertwining people

[Heather Lynn]

and stories, and it is really wild. But I think it's. And like I said, I recommend the book for anyone to get an idea of that. And it also speaks to then some of the stuff Jason has experienced. And so we'll let that rat's nest be there, but it covers that. But that's just an example, a little bit of how sometimes people reach out to me with leads or different things. And I thought, you know, it's. I just. It just made me want to know more about, like, why are these things hidden and what's going on? And so that kind of put me in that direction. I think of. Of the occult factor in all of it. And occult just meaning hidden.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

And I try to do that because I feel like everything is like fully connected. I mean, we didn't just, there's nothing new under the sun as they say.

[Danny Jones]

Right?

[Heather Lynn]

You know, when we talk about something like money and currency and these ideas again back to the Sumerian, they, you know, started all these different systems and then it influenced all of the areas around, like the Mediterranean, ancient Egypt and all of this. And it's just been something that has laid a foundation for what we're living in now. So when I was doing my graduate work, I looked into the history of early modern free markets and just little things that kind of made me think, oh, this is how where these come from. So like the term bank even just something like, you know, why is it a free market? It was like literally like a farm market. People would go and they'd put out all their stuff and then people would bring like these tokens and they were money, they're like selling money essentially. And they would put it on A bench which would be a bunk. And they would put it. Put it out and it. When they were out of it and done, they would break the bank to signify that we're out. We don't have any. So when you're broke or you break the bank, it comes from that. And it's like. That's interesting. We're using a lot of this. Like, there's such a disconnect between, like the world that we are in now and like the world that. That is really underneath it all. So just like something like meat. Right. We go to the store, we pick up a nicely packaged little steak. And sometimes it's shrink wrap. There's like labels on it. And it's just like, look at this thing. We're gonna cook. And we don't necessarily consider all of the things that it took to get that with animals and that they're living beings, et cetera. We just kind of take it that that's meat. We even have the words for it as such. Like, we have cow versus beef. Like, you know, there's the animal, but there's the animal product. So likewise, let's say like the money system.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah. That's funny, right?

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

We think of that as two separate things.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. Because that's how we sort of. Well, with pork and pig. And these are words that came from the French. Like when the Normans, like, came in and they were like, we have boof. The boof. Beef. And. And then there's the people who were there who they sort of did the whole Anunnaki thing with. Like, we're gonna take you over. The regular people who were farming it knew it as a cow, would keep the word cow, but they referenced it as like beef. And so that just stayed. Cause the language kind of like grew and changed, but we still have those words now where we differentiate between cow and beef. And I think that's where it starts to get really interesting. When you start to divorce reality from where it becomes began. That really just does give a lot of people power. Because think about. Do you understand banking systems? I mean, I think the only person I personally like, agree, knows most about it is Katherine Fitz. But.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, yeah, she's great.

[Heather Lynn]

She's amazing. Gosh. But I mean, plenty of people know about it, but it's.

[Danny Jones]

It's so. It's like. It's like the whole system with Wall street and all the stuff in the banks was designed intentionally to be extended. Extremely confusing.

[Heather Lynn]

I agree. 100. And that's part of the whole. The whole setup There. And it's mathematically based. Again, it's like a cult of math magicians or, you know, that's. That's really what it is.

[Danny Jones]

That's why Epstein called himself the Magi.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes. And people sometimes question, well, why did Epstein get so much power? He didn't even, like, you know, go to school and. And do all this. He's teaching or whatever. Like, what? He was recognized early as having mathematic abilities. Abilities. Math reigns supreme. And math is. Some have said math is the language of God. You know, what is real? Like you just said, if it's words, it could be messed with. If it's numbers, it's fact, it's quantitative. Even back to, like, if saying something's a hard science versus a soft science, what differentiates that? The quantitative analysis of it, not the qualitative. The amount, not the. You know, so that. That's an important numeracy, is very important to this. And so that gives you the basis of reality, what's real. And it can be modeled out then. So if you have something like stripping down to its most basic thing, we have abstraction after abstraction until everything's confusing, like beef or whatever, and then you get down to its baseline, then you can have a shot at understanding it or modeling it. So this is essentially, in my view, what's been going on, on a lot with Epstein's desire to really pour a lot of money into science is the quest for immortality. Because at the end, that's what they all want, is to live forever. That's the goal of transhumanism. We're going to transcend it. That's the oldest trick in the book. Again, back to the Sumerians, again ad nauseam. But the Epic of Gilgamesh was the same idea. It was the same idea of the king who wanted to resurrect or help his friend Ankidu, who happened to be a wild man, described very much like some sort of, like, Bigfoot or Sasquatch or something like. It was like the stress of a early civilization where perhaps there were people still living who were not in the walls of the city. And they describe this guy as, like, formidable to the king, and he was real hairy and wild, and he drank with the gazelles. So what they did to go get him in was they took one of their temple prostitutes out there to seduce him, bring him back to the city, and they humanized him. They civilized him by giving him a bath and shaving him and having have some sex with some nice ladies. And now all of a sudden, he's like, I'm here, I'm here to win it. And you know, as the story goes, he ends up befriending the king. And of course Gilgamesh goes, and he's trying to find this plant that would give everlasting life. But it's like the Fountain of youth. I mean, that's literally the oldest story is the episode Epic of Gilgamesh. So from our oldest story, the, the point is we have to search for the thing that is going to give us everlasting life. We want to live forever. And so that is the quest is biohacking your way to it or perhaps figuring out the mathematic formula of living forever. And what would that look like? Because there, if you know the math of it, the fundamentals, if math is the reality, then you're going to, to be able to model it, predict it, and then control it.

[Danny Jones]

And this is whole, this is the whole. This connects to how he was obsessed with entropy. Yeah, he was talking, always talking about entropy and talking to Lawrence Krauss about this.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, yeah. So when you, if you look through the Epstein emails, you see that he had this quest to understand entropy, to really figure out different ways to master it, to, to harness it, to kind of, in my view, transcend it.

[Danny Jones]

So he wanted to hack it.

[Heather Lynn]

Hack it.

[Danny Jones]

This is the second law of thermodynamics. It's like order dissolves over time.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes.

[Danny Jones]

Everything becomes more chaotic. Chaotic death of the universe will eventually happen.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. And so, and the way that I kind of went into this a little is because since I've talked about Anunnaki stuff and of course, ancient alien type things in these civilizations, I hear a lot about free energy. I mean, we have disclosure day. All this, everybody talking about, what is it? Free energy. That's, that's supposedly what it is that they're hiding all this from is because what if we got free energy? And I'm thinking, well, what if we got free energy? So.

[Danny Jones]

Right.

[Heather Lynn]

I mean, there's like pretty much an industry now of Disclosure Inc. That's like telling us like it's about free energy. Okay. What's the energy going to do power our civilization? Like, we're going to not pay electric bills. I don't think that all of this like disclosure, hiding things is just because we, you know, know, would like to have free renewable resources or free resources. Likewise. It's not to get us off world, you know, oh, it's free energy. Means we're going to be able to planet hop. Okay, well, good luck you know, passing through the radiation. I mean, like, let's solve one problem at a time. I do not think that that is the ultimate idea. I think that what we are looking at, especially with free energy, it already gives us pop cultural notion of just, it's free. Like it's just, it's there with no cost, it's free. It's but like the first law of thermodynamics, like energy can't be created or destroyed. So how is it like what's going on here? It doesn't even make sense. So when we talk about entropy, we're talking about the energy loss of something that is able to be skimmed, it's able to be harnessed and then that way it's free. As in free out of that system it's been freed. So as opposed to, some people think it's free, it's a free for all energy. Like. No, no, no, it's, this is the energy that happens that you might be able to skim off of and it, it starts to be weirdly kabbalistic, weirdly Platonic in some ways and very much linked to the idea of like the monad, the dyad and you know, the triad, this, this gnostic. I mean we can throw all these buzzwords out, but that's because everyone sort of had a bit of this so called metaphysical truth, like the blind men and the elephant idea where they're all in, you know, blind men standing around an elephant, one's holding a tail, one's holding a trunk and another a leg and they're arguing over what it is that they have and they're all right, but they just can't see the bigger picture. And so that's the utility of siloing people into these disciplines and things.

[Danny Jones]

Yes.

[Heather Lynn]

So that's important because if you have a discipline, so like you say evolutionary biology, you have that, you have, we'll say archaeology, we'll say, you know, psychology, whatever.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah. No one's interdisciplinary.

[Heather Lynn]

That's the problem. And that's the point. Because what is it that underlies the whole thing? If you want to prove any of these disciplines, if you want to go and you're going to speak at an event and you want to bolster your claims, you're going to want charts and graphs, you're going to want, want numbers. I mean they even will tell you that like there's funny books about that, you know, lying.

[Danny Jones]

Look at this immigration chart.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. As soon as people see numbers they're like, I believe you. And that's a known you know, phenomena in psychology. Anyway, so of course you just put pie charts up, which is nothing and say well you know, according to this pie chart.

[Danny Jones]

So numbers, I'm not going to crunch those numbers. But he's got the numbers up there, so it must be true.

[Heather Lynn]

It's numbers. They're scary. He's probably right. So you put the numbers there as to say this is ultimate truth because math is reality, math is truth. So the math is what's under, underneath it all. And you have all these different disciplines and they're working for all these different things, looking at what they're interested in. But in a, in, in a way though, they're finding the mathematic formulas. And so like with entropy, people have come across entropy in most notably communication studies. So there's. Yeah, so a lot of these concepts and sometimes what happens is they'll use different words. Words. And so this is where academies comes in where you're gonna like go into a field and you are going to have to learn their jargon. And sometimes it's just like, I mean isn't this A? And it's like yeah, but we say it like B. That's just discipline specific jargon. And that's part of academies. Well that serves to hide things of course.

[Danny Jones]

But even the word entropy was just like who, who created that word?

[Heather Lynn]

Neumann. He, he.

[Danny Jones]

Von Neumann.

[Heather Lynn]

Von Neumann. And he was like, well, you know, we'll call it entropy because people don't really know what it is. And that's like a legit quote. Like they, it was intentionally used to obfuscate. So. And well, we have that with, you know, I'm not a physicist so I'm not going to go deep into this, you know, but the idea of dark matter and dark matter is, you know, another one of those. Like we're going to put a cool name to something that. Does it exist? I mean we see there's evidence that it exists. But then to articulate it as dark matter give. Gives it a very visual thing. It gives it something where it makes it feel like in the psyche of people it's a legitimate found object. But at the end it's another way to solve a mathematic problem, you know, that, that people are working with, they're modeling things out and it may or may not work, that's fine. But when public, when people just get it, it's just easy to sort of say, oh well that's a thing.

[Danny Jones]

Put it in this box.

[Heather Lynn]

Put it in this box. And then we kind of move along and say well, obviously the ancient Greeks didn't really know a whole lot. They're running around with white like marble crumbling around them. What do they know? And like, we just don't even think about how advanced people were in their thinking, what they were able to do, and maybe their motives behind it too. Like Isaac Newton. I mean, people are familiar with his work that, you know the father. Well, not, you know, all he was doing was trying to do advanced calculations to find the end the of. Of the world. He was very much about like end times and that sort of thing. Really? Oh yeah. And you know, for the record, it's 2060 is what he came across. So get. Get your storable foods and your life straws or whatever, your bunkers. Build it now. Because in 2060, how did he come up with that? Well, he invented calculus. So he calculated it. I know any. And by the way, what's so cool about it him is his writing is tiny. Okay. Another thing to not take things for granted. Like we have so much, yet we just can't do anything. So his writing is tiny because he couldn't necessarily afford paper. Paper was expensive. And so you would write very tiny and on the edges of things. And so his notes are just. Because you didn't waste paper, because paper was expensive and he wouldn't made him money. Although he's trying to make money literally because he was an alchemist and he got in a little trouble for that too. Trying to be like. Trying to make money. Yeah, Weird stuff. But he. A lot of cool stuff is like known about him, but it's just not talked about interest. He was an alchemist and he was more into occulted things. Hermeticism.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah, well, Epstein talking about him in that interview with Bannon.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh yeah.

[Danny Jones]

About Newton.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh yeah, yeah. So that's where their interests lie because, well, they're trying to get to the mathematical.

[Danny Jones]

I had this dude on the podcast, Dean Raiden, who was talking about how he had a zoom call with Jeffrey Epstein, and It was a 20 minute Zoom call. And he said that Jeff, he. His perspective was he wasn't aware of any of the allegations against him. And he knew that Epstein funded all the smartest people that he knew. So he's like, I want to get some funding. I'll do a zoom call with this guy or a Skype, whatever it was back then. And he said he had him on the call for 20 minutes and all he did was ask him to tell him stories about spoon men ending what,

[Heather Lynn]

like Ingo Swan kind of things. Oh, well, because Epstein was much more metaphysically inclined than people would, I think, have us to believe. And you can tell that with the Bannon interview too, because he was talking about God and the nature of things and, and in a lot of his emails he's discussing this. So whether or not he, you know, his religious beliefs, etc, I mean, it's inconsequential. He had not a single minded, just, you know, materialist perspective. He had the door open for something else and he was funding it too. And weird things that are often related to occultic ideas. Like Atlantis. Yeah, big one there. Because a lot of people who are interested in linking this so called, like antediluvian bloodline thing, the ones that perhaps were the bloodline of the Anunnaki. So like this, in this category of peoples who survived the Younger Dryas, maybe had a breakaway civilization moved and settled in Mesopotamia and then had this like royal bloodline, this kind of thinking has led people to think, well, perhaps that was Atlantis, you know, not the Aquaman kind of version of Atlantis, but like more of like a Plato's Atlantis and just a fabled place of like the Golden Age, which is a term that you hear thrown around a lot for that very, very reason. And it's not just because of Atlantis being like this really cool story from, you know, Plato, but because later that gets mythologized from theosophy as like the core component of like the root race theory, if you're familiar with that. Well, that's where a lot of those like Nordics and things like that come from and that informed the Vril society and a lot of the thinking that was going on at the time.

[Danny Jones]

Well, it's interesting, I think I learned this from Jason Giorgiani in one of his articles about this. He was saying that there were some male people, some Norwegian guys, like young men who were hired by Ghislaine to go to the Zorro ranch.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes.

[Danny Jones]

And like, I forget what they were doing, but they were describing how like she, they would catch her in their bedroom stealing like their hair off the pillows and stuff.

[Heather Lynn]

She really wanted to find Atlantis too. So what is that about? And they're going to spend a lot of money trying to find Atlantis, trawling the bottom of the ocean to try to find this. But you know, it kind of, it speaks to that root race kind of golden Age era of people's thinking, their mythos, that there's going to be maybe another cataclysm and that the people of this royal elite bloodline are going to Be able to, you know, ride it out or come back out with this golden age. Kind of like the same stuff Bannon talks about or believes in, so to speak, with the Kali Yuga. That's kind. He's big on. On. On that stuff, which is that cyclical. It's, like, from Hindu. So. So it's kind of an important distinction because a lot of the stuff that comes into Western esotericism does so through the east. And this period in the 19th century where people got very interested in Indian sort of maybe Hindu or Hindic ideas. They went over there. A lot of people from Britain, although Helena Blavatsky was, you know. But a lot of people in those circles would go travel to India, be enchanted with some cool ideas, get themselves a guru, and then come back and start making brotherhoods and associations. And that is connected to that mystery school that I got involved with and then dropped out of. And that mystery school is the Lucist Trust. Arcane school. And so that one.

[Danny Jones]

The Lucas Trust.

[Heather Lynn]

The Lucis Trust. Yes. And so they have UN affiliation. And they even have a meditation room at the United nations headquarters that has a big altar in the middle of it and some lovely, you know, art. And. Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

Does it look anything like this? Right.

[Heather Lynn]

It kind of reminded me of it a little bit. Not gonna lie. So. But, yeah, that's the. The way that I got looped into that a little bit was because my curiosity was just like, I gotta know, what's this person doing? What's that? And I'm getting these, you know, quote, correspondences, and I came across this information, and I was like, let me see. You know. And so I applied, and the application was just really detailed. Then I talked with somebody. They wanted to know my, like, genetic background, which I thought, that's weird, right? I didn't give them, like, my 23andMe or anything, but I did give them the. A snapshot of it. And I'm like, okay, so I wouldn't not advise this, obviously, to people, but I didn't even think. I was just like, I want that information. What's going on? I got, you know, one thing leads to another leads to another. And then I'm like, before I knew it, I was a student enrolled. And I'm like, okay, now what? Right? And so I'm very interested in this. I'm like, they're all love and light, which, you know, if you. If you know anyone who's into that, some people are very authentic in that and good for them. But there are a lot of people who Use Love and Light as a different kind of a moniker. So they hide what it is they're actually doing or thinking behind this. So essentially Luz's trust is pretty open to. You can go on their website and look up most of their materials. And so it's another. It was.

[Danny Jones]

Didn't they change it from Lucifer or something?

[Heather Lynn]

They sure did. It was the Lucifer Trust, Lucifer Publishing. And it was started by Alice Bailey, who was a theosophist who broke away from Annie Bessant, who again, going back to that time in Britain in particular, where social media socialism was kind of bubbling up and people were trying to be more like civic and have civil rights and this sort of thing. A big movement in the feminist movement was like this anti passant and the theosophical movement was behind a little of that, also freeing India, because they had a vested interest in India. And so they, they made their, like, they made a name for themselves doing that stuff. But it was in the circumstances of this kind of occulted view. So going back even further, but not that much further to the 1800s, you have Elvis Levy, who was the guy who did the Art of Baphomet, if you know Baphomet, and you can imagine what Baphomet looks like, that is from Elvis Levy. So he was a magician and he created Baphomet and all of this as a socialist sort of icon.

[Danny Jones]

I always get Baphomet and Pan mixed up.

[Heather Lynn]

They're easy to do. Yeah, that one on the Wikipedia. Yeah, that's the classic drawing. So he did this because he was actually a Catholic priest and he decided that socialism was actually the true Catholicism is what he called it. And so he dropped down, he turned himself into a magician and wrote a very influential book on magic, books on magic and influenced Crowley and others. And so the, the notion of socialism was really wrapped up into this and people's view of it. And so people were just getting into a fervor. It was the like the occultic revival later. So, so all of this is happening and people get really interested in importing these eastern ideas which in what's called the second occult revival in the 1960s, you see them kind of repeating the same thing with the Beatles going out and getting themselves gurus and doing this and an influx of. Of like natural food stores and hippies and whatever. But in Anton Lavey, that whole like current that runs through that is the second occult revival that sort of links itself to the first, which was going on here with Levy figures like Bessant and Alice Bailey. And so they're essentially doing this like magic workings. And yes, it's Lucifer Publishing that ended up being the Lucis Trust. So I was curious and I wanted to know what are they up to, what's going on? And I ended up getting their correspondence, their bulletins, and they were wild. One thing that they did that I thought was notable was in a very culty way, they assign you what they call a secretary, but they're really just a handler because they're licensed clinical psychologist. Like that seems like a lot. Why do you need all that if you're not going to like try to brainwash a person? Right? I mean, isn't it that. Yeah. So that was interesting. And so this person kind of like wants you to do these monthly reports.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

a Windows 11 PC.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

So like meditation reports to the full moon.

[Danny Jones]

Sounds kind of like Scientology.

[Heather Lynn]

Totally. Well, it's. That's the thing is all of these things end up being the same kind of practice where, you know, you get to the end of it and your reward is that you're the God of your own world. Or you get to. To have your own, you know, I guess cult at the end of the day. I know. You know, Kurt Metzger always says that same thing. Always reinforces the notion that this is what you're working for at the very end of it. Like, ta da. You get to be like L. Ron Hubbard. You get to have your own. But it's very true. It's 100% true because that is the. It's sort of not even a mystery box at the end. It's like, yep, that's what you get. You get to be on Top Whether it's, you know, Mormons getting their own planet or whatever. So, so, so what was it like?

[Danny Jones]

Lucius? Lucius Trust. Like what ultimately, like what was its goal?

[Heather Lynn]

I think now see, if you look and get into their literature, you can go deep into all the different threads. But my takeaway, the entire purpose is that there's a couple different things. But I think ultimately the idea is that you're trying to give up all of your energy into one hug mind and you're doing that through perhaps altered states, like meditation, though, deep meditation. You're involved in what's called triangles, where there's three people and those people kind of agree to meet telepathically to, you know. But what you're doing too isn't just like the self improvement. It's all based in trying to help what they call the new group of world servers. And it's like, what is. That's weird, right? They even have a plan. They call the plan aptly with a capital P. And so when people say things like there's not hidden hands and people aren't trying to plan stuff, there's no new world order. It's like. Well, there is. But the thing is, is they're not all united.

[Danny Jones]

It's not a monolith exactly.

[Heather Lynn]

It's. There's groups who fancy themselves like better at it than others or their flavor of it's better.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

Or they're going to do it for this reason and everyone's operating in their own little silos. But they all are doing things that at the end, end, they're wanting to have a big power grab and they feel that maybe magic is a way to do it. And maybe sitting around doing full moon meditation, praying for Henry Kissinger, which is exactly what they're up to. Is going to be somehow the way to do it. And it's like. And then they tell people that you're doing such good for humanity, but it's like the ultimate slack, like slacktivism, because what are you actually doing? Although they did help fund the Occupy movement. They actually. Yes, they actually. When the website for Occupy Wall street came up, they were the ones who bought the website.

[Danny Jones]

Interesting.

[Heather Lynn]

And then they took that down. They scrubbed the who is and all of that information. But they're very much involved in activism that way. But it's all under the guise of unity and we're all together and these are things that you can't deny. It would be good that everyone just. Can't we all just get along? Right. Okay. But the thing is we Are not that biologically programmed to be like in a hierarchy. I mean, there's just a lot. And we can work against that. We can try to use our minds to overcome that. Fine. But when you see people enforcing this, like collectivism, it's not generally for the betterment of individuals, it's the betterment of a collective. Who defines the collective? Is it going to be like, if you say politics, is it for the left, is it for the right, which are all made up terms? Is it for the Christians or is it for, you know, Jewish people? Is it for Muslims? Is it, you know, there's Abrahamic, we'll blump them together in one big. We're just dividing, dividing, dividing, but leveraging these tactics to sort of unite under coalitions, but it serves to divide.

[Danny Jones]

Where does this. Lucius Trust gets this money from?

[Heather Lynn]

Well, Rockefeller Foundation. They get donations. They get, they are, they are a nonprofit. And so some of that's available, but they are privately funded or I should say individually funded, so donations and that sort of thing. And so some of it's really, some of it's hard to track down, but some of it's just older money that's been in accounts as well. But they offer everything for free. So, like, you could join the school and become a student and, you know, do it, I would suggest, I mean, because people don't have to actually be a student. You have to practice this. You can just. And of course, now they'll probably say like, okay, our signup's gone, because they're might get a flood of people who are like, I want to see what's going on in there. But I took a long time to collect all of that, those documents because they send them as papers by design that are typed by design. Even though plenty of the information's available digitally, there is information still that's not available that they send from their, what they call headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland. Geneva, Switzerland, London and on Wall Street, New York. And so they've had their hands on a lot of different things, but they're basically like, they build themselves as like the spiritual center of the United Nations. So they want spiritual, spiritual unity, world peace and all the stuff that just sounds great. And so you can see how people get sucked into it with like, love and light. But other people who are involved, who go deep in it are like a lot of people from mit, a lot of people who are interested in the electric gods theory and this notion that like, the world, the universe is electric and our gods are actually electric. And so they get really Deep into science and these sorts of things as well. But it's just one flavor of many things, like you said.

[Danny Jones]

But preparing humanity for a Christ like figure or something.

[Heather Lynn]

Yes, that is a big one. They do that through their great invocation. It is what they call the world prayer. And it's a little creepy because they use these terms that are familiar with people culturally, like Christ, but they don't mean Jesus. They also use maitreya, which is a Buddhist term for that figure. So it's so people will say, oh, you're going to demonize maitreya. You're not demonizing Buddhism. They're co opting because that's what these occult movements did. They just went to India, they plucked a bunch of cool shit, they came over and mixed it up with the Western esoteric thought, made something new. And you know, now they're pushing it as like new age, which is. That's where that comes from. It's the new age. So, yeah, so they're trying to usher in. So their goal is to get everybody united and get everybody prepared by following the plan for the coming one. And that coming one is the world, world teacher. And that world teacher will like unite everybody. And it sounds very like alien religion oriented as well, you know, like the Raleans and all of that.

[Danny Jones]

And this is. You connected this somehow in one of your pieces about chaos magic being used to like introduce this like religious context into people's lives as a, as a means to like control their reality.

[Heather Lynn]

So chaos magic, I think is a very underestimated form of magic, we'll say. And magic too. When I say magic, I mean magic is like essentially action from a distance. It's imposing your will onto something. Like your will will be done. Do as thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law. So in some sense you want to have like a powerful will, willpower. And so you can, you know, practice these different things like subconsciously to, you know, better your life or you can put your will onto others. So you're like taking away their free will and you're doing things against them. And so. But magic, at the end of the day, you know, people are trying to find ways to hack other people's willpower so they can control them. And so in a lot of ways it's psychology.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And in a lot of ways that's not satisfactory to some people. So you have, you know, chaos magic, which is Peter Carroll, who passed away recently, kind of in the 70s, started writing more about that, formalizing it using, you know, Mathematic concepts and more scientific concepts and trying to. I don't know about trying to legitimize magic, but I think that's what he was inadvertently doing, whether he meant to or not. But the idea of chaos being introduced into a system for a desired outcome is an important one that seems to be at play with the Bannon type people who, you know, are sowing those seeds of chaos all the time. Having people break up into little groups and fight amongst each other and whatever. But it's. It serves more than just to divide us. It actually serves this, like, energy in a mathematical concept where they're able to harness that energy and use it to implement their strategies. Again, this is not necessarily. I'm saying that this is how the world works. This is how people who practice magic in certain fields. This is what they think is working. So it's like when they say sigil magic, you know, people are like, oh, sigil magic. You know, you might find a book that says, charge a sigil. Sigil's like a symbol, essentially. And there's many different ways to make the symbol, but essentially it's a symbol, but it needs charged. And some people will say, oh, you put it out in the full moon, and the moon magic will charge it great. But then advanced sigil magic can get into. Well, do we really want to know how sigils are charged? Because when I talk about it, then people say, wait, wait, wait. We don't want to hear it. It's like, I'm going to tell you how sigils are charged. It's charged through, like, you stare at it with that great intention. And one way is to vigorously mate until you put out all your vril, your life force, your animal magnetism, you name it. Loosh, if you're into Robert Monroe, this concept of this, like, energy, this vital force that we have inside of us, that people have been trying to, like, categorize for a long time, but that is what charges. That's the magic. And so people will be like, I got to make my sigil work. And they're going to go, now you got one guy, and he's, you know, doing the deed, staring at the sigil. He's going to charge it. But how can we make it more magical? Maybe we have two people doing it. Okay, now maybe we have ritual sex. But, you know, it's not about just the generative force of the sex or the spilling of the seed. It is about the, like, getting the maximum energy out of it. So that would be the most extreme emotion. So you have extreme pleasure. So that's the or. So now that's Karma Sutra. This is not just like sting, likes to, like, take a long time to please the ladies kind of thing. No, Karma Sutra is. And that's an old reference, so I'm sure nobody who's staying, it's like, Google it. But. No, but here. Here's the thing. When you're practicing that, you're trying to basically, like, edge. You're like, you know, trying to hold it in as long as you can. So that now, boom, that's some magic sigil action right there. So we got the magic sigil, and now we need to make it more magical, so we're gonna get one more people involved. But what's the opposite of pleasure is pain. And we're not distinguishing between, like, types. It's severity, it's extremity. So another way to charge a sigil is through blood, through torture, through extreme misery and pain and suffering. So that's another way to charge a sigil is you can be a kid, like, just, like, dabbling like, little blood, but then you're going to need more of that power. So maybe little small animal. Okay, what's next? You know, you can just, like, dream on now. What happens when you go to. How about we mix that, right? We got extreme pleasure and pain. Okay. You can kind of see where this is going to go when somebody really wants to make something magically charged. Before you know it, you're having ritual orgies that end in torture and abuse and bloodletting and not killing. Because killing just. We don't. We don't want to waste that. We have to have back to that, like, warrior blood thing. You don't just kill, kill. You have to make the suffering such that when you spill the blood that it's powerful, and you spill that blood on the sigil, and that sigil then will carry that power. Yeah, so it gets really dark, and some people will be like. Some people get mad about that because it's like they're. You're telling secrets if you say, well, you know, this is how we go from that, like, incrementalism. Nobody's going to say, like, hey, why don't you come over tonight? We're going to have this big, like, orgy, and we're going to, like, kill some babies. And over this, nobody. Nobody's gonna do that. It's. They start with little things like, you know, we're just gonna, like, you know, rub one out while watching the stick. Or we're gonna, like. And it's like, okay, that's a little weird, but to each his own.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And then it's like it. It escalates and escalates.

[Danny Jones]

Yes. Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And so, again, not everybody does this. Very few people do this. But it is a thing, and it is documented in magic. And so sometimes you see these, like, superficial books that'll say, charge your sigil in the moon, like girls. It's often like, you know, healing crystals and stuff. And that's fine, and that's a way. But people think different thoughts. And just because you're not doing it or, you know, whatever, doesn't mean other people aren't thinking this way or doing this. And just because somebody wears a suit and a tie and they get up and they tell you how they're going to fix, you know, job numbers and they're going to make the economy better and they're going to vote for this, right? For this, for that doesn't mean they're not doing some weird shit, too. Yeah. So it's. I think it's important to explain to people, although you can literally look up these grimoires, you can literally look them up everywhere. You can read for yourself the practices. People will all the time, deny, deny, deny, deny. Because they will try to say, like. Like Crowley, they'll say, well, when he admitted to, like, sacrificing all these children, he was talking about, you know, essentially, like, he's just like, well, you know. Yeah. So, like, because he admitted to, like, sacrificing all these children because that was the ultimate. And the sacrifices of. As a child, of course, well, he later says, well, no, I didn't really kill kids. It was just because, you know, I masturbated and I spilled my seed, and that was the sacrifice of my children. Cool. Okay, Whatevs. But that's what people will say. So it's like. But then those are what's called occult blinds, too. It's like, so how do we know? And so people pick on Crowley. People pick on these individuals. But I think what's important is to look at, rather than the aesthetic of it, which can be like, oh, it's cool. It's like Baphomet. It looks like, pretty, like rock and roll, but Baphomet is actually symbolizing something very ancient, very mathematic. It's like still the worship of three because of the androgyny component. It's the. It's very important. That androgynous component is essential to this, like, thinking about control and what it is to conquer God. So it's the lament of God being dead. This is like the Enlightenment, post Enlightenment thought where people were like, you know, like the Nietzsche quote everyone's familiar with, where he says God is dead. And they read that like it's this, like, hooray. But even Nietzsche didn't think that. He said, God is dead and we have killed him. We're murderers of all murderers. And he laments, who's going to wash the blood off of our hands. And so he's painting this picture of, like, first of all, he didn't say, like, we beat him up. He's like, talking about a sacrifice that we took a knife. He paints this picture of there being God and we, the humans, murders of all murders. Because that's apex predator shit right there. Because you killed God. You can't get any higher than that. But we killed God. We sacrifice him. We have blood on us. But who's going to wash the blood? Blood, like atonement. Who's going to then invent what great games of atonement will be invented? Recognizing the idea of the Greeks and other ancient peoples, like, making the games to appear, appease the gods. He goes on this lament of, like, now what? We just killed God. And now we're like, oh. And he ends it with this notion of. He says, must we not become gods ourselves if only not to appear worthy of it? So two things there. He sets the tone. He sets the groundwork for transhumanism. What he does, he's coy. He's. Because he says, he puts that bit of, like, doubt to. In there, like, must we not become gods if only to appear worthy? Like, we're never even. It's going to be a simulation still. But, like, that's the complexity of Nietzsche where people can use his words to say, God's dead, all right, or, oh, no, God's dead now we just can't do anything on our owns. And you can just take that. But that's why he was brilliant, is because the way that he wrote it left us with this uncomfortable truth of the gray area of. Of now what? And ever since then and beyond, we're grappling with the idea of, like, what do we do now we're going to die? What do we do now that we're, like, conscious and we have all these realizations. So, yeah, it's the transhumanist dream, and it's this idea of battling nature and winning. So you beat God at his own game. Which is what Epstein was doing in those emails, too.

[Danny Jones]

But it does seem like there's this new resurgence of like spirituality in the west and you know, specifically also Christianity from these people like Peter Teal and all of this stuff. It seems to be becoming more popular. I think that you said something in one of your essays about like the, the church is like ramping up some spiritual warfare stuff in 2026.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. So the thing is, is Teal is really interested in utilizing Christ Christianity. Now I'm, I, I'm not going to make windows into men's hearts. So I'm not going to say whether or not he believes one thing or another. I can only say that he has also said that the Christian faith is going to be the best faith to use for you know, the purposes that he has, which would be to.

[Danny Jones]

He said this?

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, yeah, he gives like so he gave lectures on the Antichrist. I'm sure you're familiar with that. But he also has an event called Hereticon where he invites a lot of individuals to attend. It's a secret kind of like closed door thing celebrating being heretics of course. But his view to know. So he can be very paradoxical because it's like he was raised evangelical, so he's evangelical Christian. But how can he be this like you know, rabid evangelical, like end times Christian, like looking for an eschatology, Israel supporting all of this, but also be like homosexual, having like strange like other beliefs and wanting to like, like there seems to be like incongruency in what he says. Well that's because when you look at it, a lot of this is because we are looking at it through our limited understanding of particular philosophies. When you understand that he was a student and it just a total follower of Rene Girard, then it makes sense. So you gotta look at who these people are studying because they're often these like gray areas or these differently defined things. And so those things can coexist in other frameworks. They just don't coexist in our day to day framework. And so that's why it looks like it doesn't make sense. But he didn't care what we think. He has an agenda and that agenda. Some people think he's the Antichrist. But he would argue against that.

[Danny Jones]

Well, no, he thinks Greta Thunberg's the Antichrist.

[Heather Lynn]

Right, right. So you know, how dare you say that about Greta. So no, he does think that, but he has this view that he is more like the thing that is the kratocon. So that's like a figure from Paul's writing In the Bible that discusses there's a figure that comes before the Antichrist that sort of holds it at bay. So just hold on Antichrist, hold on all of this. And, and so what he has talked about doing is sort of try, he sees like the writing on the wall and he's going to try to make sort of an escape for us all. So this idea, like when it comes down to something like God is dead, like we have all this like energy built up, like what do we do? You know, people are more secular, but they're not really secular because if you don't believe in that, you're just going to another ism. If you're not like into whatever ism, you're going to be into something political. Even if you're not a political minded person, you're going to be all into sports. Something is going to grab you and inspire you and become your religion. And so his view was, if we're since so fractured, if we want to get everybody to think the same, we need to find something that is not new. He's not going to try to invent a religion because nobody would you like sign up for the Church of Peter Thiel? Like no, that's a hard sell. But he's like, well, you know, Christianity of course, course. But that's because of the sacrificial system as well. That Gerard was very much into this idea of the sacrifice.

[Danny Jones]

That's scapegoat.

[Heather Lynn]

Scapegoat, yes. And so that is a very important notion because in this concept and Gerard, amazing, amazing thinker, amazing writer, but some of these ideas, like when you take them and you try to go apply them to the real world, maybe they don't work out. Maybe we should keep them in the ivory tower while we argue about, about it for a little bit. But he observed this thing where essentially once there's so much division, so much entropy lost that there needs to be a reset that can only be done through a scapegoat. And I'm paraphrasing and like you know, distilling this a lot, but there needs to be a scapegoat so that, so that we can like essentially have a pressure release valve.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And so this, it's all like managed chaos. It's all like just about controlling the inevitable. And again putting us essentially, us non billionaires in positions of like livestock essentially, that we need to be herded and managed and culled if necessary. But all for the greater good, of course. But the idea of a scapegoat being the thing so the, like the Sumerians, how this idea too of the scapegoat on their, they like, they kind of started that, that we know of, that there was the, there was a coin they called a mash and that meant the kid, like the little goat. And so it was an idea that from the very beginning, you know, you, there was this need to sacrifice an animal. Over time that shifted kind of like the incrementalism again, what's more precious than the firstborn of your herd? Well, maybe a little bit later and the gods get hungry. They want something a little better than that. They want your firstborn child. So like it gets to be that slippery slope where before you know it you're having like human sacrifice as part of your religion. So a lot of this is theorized that it's because of mimetic desire. This, this notion that we want something just because another person has it or others have it. So then we want it. We don't really want the thing, we just want it because we're told we want it.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

So this becomes essentially really great for capitalism because you can see ads all day, like this person has this drink and you want it too because you want to be like them. And it's like, yes, I'll get it, but you don't really want it. Are you thirsty right now? If you are thirsty, is that the drink you want? You don't think, think about that. You're just like desire, desire, desire. So that's great for capitalism, but not great for this notion of entropy loss. Because all of a sudden you're losing like you're getting too many people. So like there you need to have in this like system again. It's like a physics thing, mathematic thing, but also economic thing. Because back to the idea that everything gets siloed. All these fields are actually related. If you, you come down to their mathematic formulas, can they be proven via math, can they be quantified and then as such be predicted and modeled and repeated? Because that's what we want. We want to control, we want to control the future, know the future. We want to master God or nature, which were like interchangeable back in those days, like in the Enlightenment. So this, this is kind of like the thing that he's looking at is this pressure release valve that we have this capitalist society, not that he's anti capital capitalist, but that you need this pressure release valve, you need the scapegoat. And ancient societies knew that too. And every now and then they would have to kill or do Something to release that scapegoat. But for financial purposes, it was part of the economic system. So a lot of the things that we see that look strange or they're boring because they just have like Charles Schwab or JP Morgan or some sort of like, you know, company name on it. Math, interest. All of this really has its roots in things that are far more nefarious in the sense that they're controlling people at their very basic level. And they think that they're doing some really good stuff though, like they don't look at it anymore like it's usury. So that was something that, you know, charging interest, that, the idea of interest, going back to that, that Sumerian concept for the kid coin, that was an interesting interest. So they were first to charge interest, but interest later became like usury. And it was outlawed, but people were still allowed to do it as long as they started calling it not like interest, but maybe like a finder's fee or some sort of fee. They started finding ways around it. But it was known that if you start playing with the money this way, it would end up in a mass like death kind of thing. Like a scapegoat would be needed because everybody would get so fractured you would need to the scapegoat event. So that's, you know, they look to those examples, they look at the past and they look at all the potentials for how they can just figure out the world's problems that they're looking to figure out using essentially math and their understanding of the ancient world, which are history and math are I think, two things that are not well taught to students in any school schools because most people will say, I didn't like history class, it was boring. It's like, yeah, but people who are in positions of power are taught history, they're taught their family history, they're taught their bloodline history, they're taught about the classical antiquity, the philosophy, the seven liberal arts. You know, we're not taught a lot of that. We're taught by rote memorization. Tell me when this happened, tell me who did that. Move on to the next test and it's like, like, who cares? And then math, of course, we're all, everybody's famously bad at math and. But by design. So as a conspiracy minded person at this point I would suggest that that is massively the biggest psyop is to just dumb us down to the point where we can be controlled.

[Danny Jones]

And you think, you think this like resurgence in spirituality and Peter Thiel trying to use Christianity Is like try to paint everything that is happening in Silicon Valley through this Christian lens. You think that is directly related to that somehow?

[Heather Lynn]

They want a new mythology, they need a new narrative because we can't. First of all, it'd be really nice in this like post enlightenment we, God is dead world to say we don't need that. Just, you know, you'll hear people from that new atheist camp back in the day go, just don't be an asshole. Okay, well, who defines asshole? Because that's going to be very different across cultures in time. You know, like we talked about the Greeks and how different things are in the Greek mind. The future was behind you and the past was in front of you. Right. So like the mindset, we can't. Not just the translations and the interpretations, but the literal thinking was different because their view was like, we knew what happened in the past so we can see it. We don't know what's in the future. It's behind us. We're getting pulled into the future. That's a mindset shift. This is why language is so damn important, right? Because that frames your whole worldview and we don't know half the words we're saying. Etymology, I do that in my articles all the time. And say before we go any further, this is the origin of this word because it means a lot more and a lot of words aren't interchangeable. You know, in religion. You know, in the beginning was the Word and the word was God. You know, with God and the word was God, Word, word, word. It's always about the word.

[Danny Jones]

Funny thing about the biblical stuff is that it allegedly comes from these Dead Sea Scrolls and in Hebrew. But during that time, everything was written in Greek. There was no Hebrew anywhere. The Library of Alexandria was a hundred percent Greek.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

And the only Hebrew we have surviving is these Dead Sea Scrolls that were found in these caves.

[Heather Lynn]

Right.

[Danny Jones]

Everything that was written Hebrew was religious. But if you want to find anything else, you want to find receipts, medical texts, legal texts, philosophical stuff, art stuff like play, write whatever it is, poems, it's all Greek.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

It's so strange.

[Heather Lynn]

It's strange, but not surprising.

[Danny Jones]

One point something, 1.5 million unique words in ancient Greek.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, but that ancient Hebrew is only like 7,000.

[Heather Lynn]

This is the point. That is a very important point. Okay, so there is a language that's the simple, considered the simplest language, known as the Piraha people. They're in the Amazon. Their language was almost used for computer programming. It was so simple. It so simple. First of all, they believe it comes from the, like, simple humming and hunting noises. So song, like the most rudimentary form of communication. Now, they were just discovered by a missionary, a guy who went in the 70s. And it's very controversial because this was like, you know, anthropology, where it's like, okay, you're messing with the folk. We don't want to do that, whatever. But his research still couldn't be denied because he lived with them. And so it's like we were grudgingly have to, like, listen to his research. But it's fascinating because he goes there and he's like, I'm going to tell you all the good news. And he starts telling them the gospel and all of this. So he has this adventure with them where he realizes these people seem dumber than a box of rocks. They can't count, they can't. Whatever I'm trying to teach them, they don't know anything. What he ended up understanding, though, is that because of their language, their minds worked differently. They could not understand quantity. They had no art. Now, this is fascinating because if you ask, you'll say most people, you would think have a religion, a history, art, anything. Not these people. They're a case of a hu. Of a civilization or a group of people with no art, with no story, with no religion, with no numbers, with nothing. The most simple language. So some people theorize that maybe there was something wrong with their corpus callosum because of maybe Janesian theory. There's a guy, Princeton psychologist, named Julian Jaynes, who theorized that consciousness came from the breakdown of the bicameral own mind that we had, like, almost like the master and the emissary concept, if you're familiar with that. So this notion that even the. He did this, by the way, through reading the Greek texts and saying, you know, it sounds like they were talking in a disembodied way, until later it didn't. So he started picking up in the ancient text that the way they spoke almost was like someone was telling them. And then later they embodied that voice.

[Danny Jones]

Whoa.

[Heather Lynn]

So when you look at this, now think of ancestor worship, that's like the oldest kind of. Of form of worship. And like an anthropological framework, you have ancestor worship where it's like you revere your ancestors and the shaman might, like, hear the voice or conjure the voice of the ancestors in a Jamesian framework, you would say, that's because dad is the only one that actually remembers grandpa's voice. How many times could you say, like, yeah, you know what Grandpa would have said? Cause you know, so now if you're telling people who never met grandpa, here's what he said, and he actually acted like this, you're like taking on the Persona. You're kind of possessed. You're inspired by grandpa. You're possessed with the voice of grandpa in that moment. So you now are passing that language on. You're, you're revering sort of the ancestor. You're worshiping up.

[Danny Jones]

Channeling them.

[Heather Lynn]

Channeling them. Exactly. And so that's like ancestor worship. But then also it kind of starts to go into these different areas of like an animism and all of this, where according to James and his work, which I highly recommend, it's. It was very, very lauded. Although some of it's, you know, a little controversial. But the notion that there was a point where our consciousness came from the unity, like the breakdown and then unity, that there was this interplay between essentially hemispheres, and the hemispheres are connected by the corpus callosum. Corpus callosum, they thought, used to just be like a band of tissue, but they realized it was very important for both sides to communicate. So when people have episodes, epilepsy, sometimes they'll cut the corpus callosum to stop the communication between the two hemispheres and it successfully stops the epilepsy. It can do other things, though. Like Ramachandran, a great, you know, neuroscientist, wrote about how the split brain patients, their left side would have a mind of its own, literally. So sometimes they would write or they would like intimate or like do something to somebody, but they couldn't stop it. They, they were not in control. How they. He ended up fixing that was through having like a mirror, putting the arm there. Kind of like what happens with like phantom limb. Oh, oh, yeah. So there's, there's a. It is crazy. So this idea of the corpus colossum being maybe something structurally important for why it was like perhaps we were in a more unified state where we were like Neanderthals painting on stuff and we were all just like, woo, vibing. And then all of a sudden we have voices in our head and we're like, who are the voices? Well, the voice is the memory. If you're like back to grandpa again, you know, grandpa Bob's saying stuff too, but you're remembering his voice. But it's your voice. You know, you're getting the voices mixed up. So like, who's talking? So like, you know, like, we're talking about math. If I were to say to you, like, you know, were you good at math? You know, maybe you were. Some people say, no, I'm not. Why weren't you good at math? Well, who told you you weren't good at math? Well, you know, my third grade teacher said. Said I kind of wasn't great. Was it your voice or, you know, who are you? Because we're really an amalgamation of all the things we were told that we were right. That's why there's feral children. If you take a human and put them out there, they have no identity. Because it takes being told who you are to even have an identity and know a name. So it's not, it's not a small thing. So that if you. So the words matter. So then if you like don't have a sense of I, but you're hearing disembodied voices, you may give them names or you may say it's grandpa. People can get very confused. But the framework that people may have laid out for this is to just simply say, this is. I'm channeling a voice of this. Or this is the muse. In a more advanced context, we have the muses. And when I think it's the Odyssey, when it opens, it talks about like Homer's not the one writing it. This is what the muse is saying. And then we write it. So it's the inspirares coming from something disembodied. So it's like how much of our own voices, our own, which is in a psychological sense, therapeutically, that's what they'll do is try to say, like use Socratic questioning, like answer that all the way down. Do you. Are you good at math? Are you bad at math? Why? Why? Why? Just try to like know thyself so that you can be the one to be the voice in your own head. Reclaim that. So it's not the voices of your past or some person that said something, but those voices, you know, are disembodied, disincarnate. Well, how do the. We have psychological and things now. What about ancient people when they start like having this breakdown now some people say, well, maybe they were on drugs. Maybe it was the breakdown of the bicameral mind. The catalyst for that was like, you know, stone date theory. They did some shrooms and whatever. But the problem with that theory is that it wouldn't have been genetic. You'd have had your mind opening experience right then and it wouldn't have been passed on necessarily to your offspring. Then you have Richard Wrangham, who has a view of he's a primatologist and he had the View of Catching fire was what he called it, which was. It was cooking your food allowed the brain's expansion and that could have been then passed on genetically because of the nutritive value of food. So like a cell wall is so thick you can't really get the nutrients out of it easily until you cook it and then it releases that. And so heat allowed a more bioavailable nutrient thing. There's some people that say, well, it has to do with our location that we had on the sea and we started having more fish in our diet. We had DHA and you know, all these fish oils and that. But the point being that we don't know. We don't know how to. How come we just all of a sudden started thinking this way? But whatever it was, we've had to cope with it and we've made narratives out of it and we've called these voices maybe the memory of grandpa or the third grade teacher that said, you suck at math. Or maybe it's like a devil's telling me something thing. Or. But all the cultures have different ways of trying to understand the disembodied voices until later it gets integrated into. No, this is my voice, my thoughts. Who am I? It can get very crazy. But this is why Jane's was a psychologist looking back at ancient text. So it's very interesting.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah. And what about memories, though? Like memories of people saying things to you that you kind of held on to.

[Heather Lynn]

Visions. Visions. Visions. Because it's imagination, it's magic, it's. It's imagining.

[Danny Jones]

Well, because it's an interesting thing about memory too. Right. If something happens, like there's been studies on this, literally like a couple hours later, the memory is changed and warped into something else.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, right.

[Danny Jones]

The brain does something different to it. Yeah. And you know, this is another interesting thing about memory is that there was a guy, I forget who. What his name was, but there was a. An ancient Greek guy who wrote all about, or he was written about how like this temple collapsed and it collapsed over everyone during a dinner and he had to memor remember where specific people were so we could pull them out of the rubble. Oh, right. And this was like this whole ancient story about, about memory and how like, you know, even during. In like classical Greece, they were. They were memorizing Homer because no one was literate. So they were walking around singing Homer and, and memorizing this like through. From childhood. And like if you extrapolate that, you know, through literacy and the written word and people being able to pull their ideas and their memories out of their head and put them on paper. It's like the human memory has atrophied over time to where, like just, you know, I can remember 10 years ago I could remember anyone's phone number. I can remember a bunch of phone numbers. And now I can remember like two phone numbers.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, I, I'll tell you the secret to that, though. Epic poetry. Epic, Homeric epic poems weren't. They were word art. They had rhythm. They were meant to be. Like song.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

Because that's how people would remember those things. Because here's the deal. If I were to say, you know, what's your favorite book? You know, say. You say harry Potter. Sorry. You know, a lot of people like that. So, like, say Harry Potter. And I say, well, tell me how it goes.

[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

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[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

Tell your doctor your medical history.

[Heather Lynn]

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[Danny Jones]

I don't have. I don't have a favorite band.

[Heather Lynn]

Okay, well, there's too many. Too many. We'll say Pink Floyd, whatever. So we'll say, if you have a favorite band, what are their songs? Tell me the lyrics. Chances are you're going to remember to sing all the songs of all the band's albums that you love. Could be lots of loads of things you'll remember. Cause it's song, it plays in a very different part of our brain that is linked to culture. So, you know, when you're younger, music is very important to teenagers. And what ends up happening too is that's the time where your brain understands, as silly as it sounds, the song of your people. You're made to have that memory very entrenched so that if you go off to another tribe or group, you'll remember that. So music and all of these different experiential things play in a different part of the brain. It makes a huge impact, which is why a lot of people, their favorite music is stalled between the ages of 16 and like 25, because that's the coming of age time. So like in a tribal society, you'd be sitting and you're like 11, and you're watching the tribal music and dances in the. What's called orgiastic behavior. Like all the activities, you're not part of it yet, but you're learning. Once you become part of it, you're like, you know, you're a man now and it's celebratory, et cetera. But that is your culture that embeds a culture inside of you that it doesn't go away. And so everything can be taken. You can be enslaved by another tribe or taken, but you'll always have your culture. And so that's why to this day, many people are like, man, they just don't make music like they used to. When did they used to? You know, back when I was 18. Right, right, right, right. That's the song of your people, man. That's what that is. But yeah, so it goes through song, but the Piraha people have no song. And this guy who was trying to convert them ends up telling them the story of John the Baptist getting his head cut. And they laugh and they're like, why is that? Funny, he's like. They were like, oh, because he was too stupid to live. He should have just lived. So he couldn't figure out what was going on. They tested him. Their corpus callosum's fine. They said basically it's the simplicity of the language which allowed for them not to have concepts of quantity and what we would consider more abstract thinking. But they're happy and they're fine. And in fact, twist, in the end, the missionary guy who goes there to tell them about Jesus, they eat him. No, man, that have been much better. No, they. He left his wife and kids and went and moved in with them and denounced his faith and became, I guess, one of the tribe.

[Danny Jones]

Where was this geography? The Amazon.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah. And you can still. You can go on YouTube and find footage of them and documentaries still. And he.

[Danny Jones]

And you were saying that some people took this language and used it for computer coding.

[Heather Lynn]

They thought they would. They thought they could. They said it's so, like, simple that maybe it could be instead of binary, maybe it'd be different. Maybe it's something we could use. Yeah, it's like, considered like one of the most like, primitive or archaic types of language. But again, the consequence of which is they lack the abstract thought. So when there's only so many words, you know, you lack the ability to abstract out. And your complexity of your thinking maybe is shaped so, like in a language that only has so many words, words versus another, you can see some cultural differences in how they, like, substitute ideas and get very. Just different in their thinking. And, you know, I won't say better or worse, I'm just saying different. And you start to see a more advanced sort of mythos.

[Danny Jones]

But I wonder how the brain would work with zero language. Like before we had words. Well, I wonder what the human being, what the mind was like back then.

[Heather Lynn]

I think it's like feral children. You've seen those.

[Danny Jones]

Do you think, do you think, do you think it's possible, like, if there was no words, no, no writing, no language, that people could communicate, like telepathically?

[Heather Lynn]

I don't know about tele. Well, I think. Yes, but not now. I think in the sense that it would seem telepathic because our senses are

[Danny Jones]

so much less cues, your other senses get more.

[Heather Lynn]

Our brain's plastic. Absolutely. And so our, our most. Our oldest sense is smell. And that's something, you know, when we, when we meet people, we don't sniff their asses like dogs.

[Danny Jones]

Right.

[Heather Lynn]

But we could have. Back in the day, we understood their. We just don't do that anymore. But our sense of smell is, like, not as good as a dog's because

[Danny Jones]

we didn't use it.

[Heather Lynn]

So it would have been selected out. Like, now we have different. So I think now, if, for whatever reason, you took a feral child and put them out in the woods, they're not gonna all of a sudden be able to, like, sniff things. They may a little bit because your brain just adapts to the surroundings. But I think, though, that earlier hominids probably had what would seem like a more telepathic way to communicate. I mean, that's how the whites have a. Our eyes evolved, is so that we could, like, have subtle cues, language. Oh, yeah.

[Danny Jones]

Oh.

[Heather Lynn]

That's why look at animals and look at the whites of their eyes or those dogs that look creepy like people.

[Danny Jones]

DNA expert woman on here that was telling me that women are attracted to men largely by the pheromones they put out the smells of their sweat when they sweat in their sweat glands. And they did a study on it, and what they found was the women, they took a bunch of different sweaty T shirts from different men and they let them all smell them and, like, rate this on attractiveness. And the women who found, like, that sweat super attractive, they found out by studying the genome of those people that their immune systems matched perfectly with the man whose sweat that they liked.

[Heather Lynn]

Whoa.

[Danny Jones]

So where their immune system was lacking, the man's sweat. Based on their sweat, his immune system would make up for where hers fell short. And that way, when they procreate, they would create a more. A more robust child.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Danny Jones]

That blew my mind.

[Heather Lynn]

That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

[Danny Jones]

Oh, the. The. The ape has no whites. No. Oh, my God. That's wild.

[Heather Lynn]

But what's cool is, like, domestic dogs, you start, they, you know, you've had a dog, they kind of look like a person. They get very human, like, that way. But it's for those micro expressions, right? Yeah. I can look at you across the room and kind of be like, you know, doing things with my eyes, and people will. Yeah, people will get that little. Micro evolution is amazing, you know, but super, super fascinating. But there's so much more to it, and a lot of people are, you know, again, building narratives around it. So. So, no, I don't think that the Anunnaki flew down here and big spaceships and put the little beakers and did that. But I do think that through basic natural selection and different things, we've just evolved to, you know, fit our environment the way we are now. And Unfortunately, a lot of that is to be domesticated and to be ruled by.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

What we now idolize as gods who are just basically billionaires who don't. Who are afraid to die.

[Danny Jones]

So, okay, we got like 15, 20 minutes before you got to catch your Uber, but I want to. To wrap us up on. On what is your, like, big picture view on this whole disclosure fiasco.

[Heather Lynn]

Oh, it is fiasco. That's what you.

[Danny Jones]

Exactly.

[Heather Lynn]

It's a fiasco. So I think, because a long time ago, it was like Cointelprode, you know, I think a long time ago people started infiltrating. And I think that currently what we have going on is just a couple things. One, it's good tv, it's good money. Some people are in it, they're grifting. But I think the overall world is that they're trying to usher in, again, like, a new narrative, a new mythology. But it can't be new new, because if Peter Thiel is right or has his way with it, it can't just be new. It has to be a new take on something old and familiar. So I believe that's why we're seeing a lot of the talk of, are they aliens or are they demons? Now, I think that's a valid question, actually, because I think that when you look at the entire history of it, what we're talking about is a phenomenology. People have experienced something, and based on their beliefs and their culture and their time, they're going to call it something. It could be gin, it could be archons, it could be DMT elves, it could be whatever. But that's not the question, because that question's been out for a while. All of a sudden now, though, that's. That's the big hot topic. And people are being mad about it. Like, I. I think of it as like a luxury, but belief, because we don't have time right now, you know, like, okay, we used to be able to just, like, have that discussion. Now it's like, you know what? Table that. Who cares if they're aliens or demons? Who cares if you like Christianity or no, none of this matters right now. What matters is why are they selling us this narrative? Why do they want us, like, thinking this way? And a lot of that, again, if you want to know, you look at not what just Peter Thiel has to say, but more so look at who he follows and admires in that philosophy and psychology. The answer will emerge from that. We have to get out of the old way of thinking that they've trapped us in with the words that they trap us with. We have to adopt a new vocabulary and find new sources and have an open mind about it and say, let's not like have the division over this religion that that can be. Those are all valid discussions. But right now if people really want to like, I guess take action, they need to say let's put that on the back burner. What is he doing? Why are he. Why is he trying to get people to argue about like this? What's the Pope up to? What's going on? What's really at play?

[Danny Jones]

I think. I think one of the biggest red flags with the whole thing is that you have this whole disclosure movement in the government being pushed primarily by this dude, James Clapper, who is the dude who lied to Congress about NSA spying on citizens which like led Snowden to dropping all his stuff.

[Heather Lynn]

Real credible guy on it.

[Danny Jones]

So like. Yeah. And then, you know, obviously Trump trying to release these UFO files in the midst of a war and the Epstein cover up and all that stuff.

[Heather Lynn]

I feel like that's a money grab.

[Danny Jones]

It tells you everything you need to know about it.

[Heather Lynn]

I think that's my view is that the inside is. It's a money grab. I do know there's an individual in Canada. I'll leave this one on a. Leave this one hanging for time. There is an individual in Canada who comes from a family with a lot of money and he had a veteran vested interest in this and paid a lot of money to get the career, I guess kind of going for individuals and also gave money to. Not a lot, I don't think comparatively. But did try to fund Marco Rubio and Kristin Gillibrand. Had a vested interest in pushing this narrative. Really Also has a keen interest in Enki and Enlil and Hermeticism. Side note. But again that often happens where you see. See this. But there has been an. He funded the congressional hearings initially.

[Danny Jones]

Really?

[Heather Lynn]

Canada. You can't say this dude's name. I'll say. I'll tell you after.

[Danny Jones]

Is he not public? He's not known.

[Heather Lynn]

Not really. He's known as the. Okay. He's known as the UFO philanthropist. And he's made some videos about my work. He contacted me.

[Danny Jones]

He makes videos.

[Heather Lynn]

He has some Strange. Yeah, but not many. It's a weird thing. I. It's. It's not like he makes videos. Videos.

[Danny Jones]

Okay.

[Heather Lynn]

I don't understand what he. Yeah, it's so weird. It's just so strange. He reached out to me. I had some discussions with him. He Wanted to know some stuff. And then he referred me to some occult literature as. As it always ends up being about UFO disclosures, government, et cetera, and then hermeticism or otherwise. But yeah, he. That's why I have a hard time with a lot of this. Even though some stories are cool, like, I'll just say, like, Stephen Greer. I mean, he. This guy funded the serious project. Come at me, Stephen Greer. I don't give a. You know, he's part of that Rockefeller Group.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

And so once that fades off, well, he's, you know, he. He's. He's.

[Danny Jones]

He was funded, I was telling you

[Heather Lynn]

yesterday, by a guy in Canada.

[Danny Jones]

One of the things that Nathan Gillis was telling me was that he. He thinks that there's a. A single source behind the paranormal stuff and the UFO stuff and what we don't really have, like a. The capacity to understand or a framework to really understand what that is and like, put it in a box with language, like it's. It's something and it could all be the same thing and different manifestations of one single source that is not material, that we just don't know what it is. But it seems that there seems to be a very big overlap with, like, paranormal stuff and this whole UFO stuff.

[Heather Lynn]

Yeah, I think John Keel said it best. He called him ultra terrestrial. Yeah, I think it. I think there is a phenomena there, but I think the problem is nobody really knows. Some people. Again, the elephant thing. People have pieces and bits and parts, right? The people who want to know, they're the ones funding those people with the bits and pieces, and they're the one trying to find the very root of it so that they can control it. As always, it's about control.

[Danny Jones]

Yeah.

[Heather Lynn]

But no, the disclosure thing, it is a total psyop. And I think Sam Tripoli said it best when he said they're trying to Astroturk turf Armageddon.

[Danny Jones]

They're trying to astroturf Armageddon.

[Heather Lynn]

That's what they're doing. And I agree 100%. All my analysis, everything that I've done, all the different factions and stuff, they are not a monolith. Like you said, there's groups and they're powerful and they're against each other and they're all in the same, but they're all humans and they just don't want to be, though. They think of themselves as much higher, but they all agree. There's a good portion of them that want to. To rush to the end for different eschatological reasons. And you know. Yeah, it's pretty dark, but they're astroturfing the end times. Shout out to Sam.

[Danny Jones]

There's a whole lot more that we could cover. We're definitely gonna have to do another one eventually if you're down. But thank you for doing this. Tell people where they can find. I read every one of your sub stacks. By the way. Thank you for hooking me up with that. Tell people how to find all that stuff and I'll link it all below.

[Heather Lynn]

Sure. The H files. Dot com.

[Danny Jones]

Perfect. That's it?

[Heather Lynn]

That's it.

[Danny Jones]

I love it. Do we have Patreons?

[Heather Lynn]

We do.

[Danny Jones]

We have a few questions. Tell it. All right, that's the end of the show. Good night, everybody. We're going to Patreon. Thank you. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays. The conditions burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever. I'm Jake Stauch, co founder and CEO of Cervel. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding password resets, access to applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cerval, it becomes the end AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets. And we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to cervel.com tickets that's S-E-R-V-A L.com tickets.