← Danny Jones Podcast
Danny Jones Podcast
#413 - “They Injected Me with DMT to Study the Fabric of Reality” | Carl Hayden Smith
02:23:52
Loading summary
Transcript633 lines
- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability. Veris 18 when you join Sam's Club, you get way more than you'd expect. You don't just get value, you get insider tips from fellow members. You don't just pick up a pizza, you actually vote on its toppings. Bacon crumbles. You don't just visit the club, because with the Sam's Club app, everywhere can be the club. You don't just shop the latest finds, you find your people. And at the end of the day, isn't that what it's all about? Come join us, Sam's Club. So tell me about this. How you were patient zero in this DMTX injection study where they inject DMT straight into your veins. How did this happen? How did you get into this? And tell me how it went?
- [01:14]
B
That's a great story. How I actually got into it. So I was doing Siloaska in the Netherlands. And you know what? Celerasco is so silly, is Syrian root and, and mushrooms. So you do your, your heroic dose of mushrooms, whatever variety you want, and then you do 3 grams of paganum seeds before you do your mushrooms, and it amplifies the mushrooms by about five times in strength. So instead of doing five grams, you're doing 25 grams.
- [01:40]
A
Oh, nice.
- [01:42]
B
And I've been crazy enough to do it twice and the, the net result of that is that it's an alien invasion each time. Like the first time I did it, I was like on a saucer and there's a scanner in the middle of this saucer and I'm like all the thousands of entities all trying to get me inside the scanner and I'm like, I'm in a bad mood because Brexit just happened. I'm a university professor, work at the University of East London and I knew it would ruin my, my research funding. Brexit is like the worst thing because I was getting, you know, millions of funding from the eu and so I'm in a bad mood and I'm not, I'm. And it's, and it's equating to, to the entities. I'm basically like, okay, I'm not, I'm not in the mood to get in the scanner, even though I can see it's probably the most advanced technology I've ever seen. And on the side of the saucer is the same shape as this scanner, so it's almost like a pod. And I could have potentially got in the pod.
- [02:36]
A
Are you explaining what's happening in the trip right now?
- [02:38]
B
Yeah.
- [02:38]
A
Okay.
- [02:40]
B
And then I basically, you know, I, I expect I would have been scanned and then fired off into the universe and spread across the, the known universe. And instead of doing that, I was just not, not going in, not going in over and over again. And then the next day I'm like, why the hell didn't I go in the scanner? Like, what was I thinking? So bad taste in my mouth. I went to an event in London in the real world, and I saw Chris Timmerman outside the Conway hall and I told him this story and he says, oh, don't worry about that, you can come in. My scanner at Imperial College London. So that's how I got the invite to start doing the DMT trials. And I've been doing them for eight years at Imperial. And the first study was EEG and intravenous dmt and almost got thrown out of the study straight away for breathing because I was like quite, you know, doing a lot of breath work because that's how you navigate the space. And Chris was like, oh, you've ruined the, the kind of the EG data because you're creating motion artifacts as you're moving, as you're breathing. And I was like, you just need better equipment. So luckily they did get better equipment and I was allowed back into the second phase of the study. And the second phase of the study, FMRI plus injected dmt. And I don't know if you've ever been in an FMRI scanner. I don't think so, but it's incredible. I'm not claustrophobic generally, but the, the claustrophobia induced by this incredibly loud, very confined. Your head's like, you know, you can't move an inch, so you're locked your head sort of very confined. You can't move any part of your body and you're not really in, you're not really in charge of when the DMT is coming into your system. So you're, you know, you're trying to cope with the claustrophobia, then suddenly you're like, oh my God, I'm in here and I'm, you know, tripping.
- [04:25]
A
It's a lot.
- [04:26]
B
And then immediately the Entities arrive en masse as if to say, bang. They gave me like a, like a flash of light to say that you're, you're made of light, you're like an immortal being, but you're in a human form right now and you're not scheduled. They're like, you're not scheduled. And I was like, like role reversal. So I had to, to calm down. These abundance, the amount of entities that arrived on mass, all different varieties, all very concerned for me because I'm, I'm suddenly in a scanner when, as I mentioned before, they're the ones normally scanning you. So I was, I was like kind of giving them a bit of a trip. So I had to spend the entire trip calming them down. And I can show you a before and after, if you like, from the, from that study. But that was like, that was the second phase of the study.
- [05:22]
A
So what was the purpose of the study?
- [05:23]
B
The purpose of the study. These are the three phases. So you can see the, the first phase of 2016 to 2017, that was the EEG plus intravenous DMT pilot study.
- [05:35]
A
Okay.
- [05:36]
B
Yeah. And then we had the FMRI plus EEG. So when you, that's when you're in this huge tube.
- [05:41]
A
Right.
- [05:42]
B
And then from 2021 onwards was the DMTX. I was lucky. It's almost like a graduation ceremony. So I got through the first phase and second phase was like, this was, this was before that particular scan and this was me directly afterwards. So you can see.
- [05:59]
A
It's like, see it in your face.
- [06:00]
B
Yeah, it was, it was an extraordinary insight and probably the most powerful DMT experience I've had thus far because they gave up the cosmic joke as if to say, we're here, we're. We're, you know, kind of your guardians and you're not scheduled. And if to say they know when you're, when you're actually scheduled. And that wasn't the right time for me to be, you know, putting myself in danger. And what was really fascinating was that two weeks.
- [06:24]
A
They know when. What does that mean? They know.
- [06:26]
B
They told me, they told me you were not scheduled. That was very clear. Like, as in, like you're not ready to, you're. You're not going to die. Now this is like, why are you being scanned? Like, what is this scanner? They were completely confused and they'd probably never seen anyone having DMT and being an FM in an FMRI scanner. So it was extraordinary for them. Probably more extraordinary in some sense because I had to spend the whole time
- [06:49]
A
calming as if people can be scheduled
- [06:51]
B
to die, as if they know when you're scheduled. And what was crazy was two weeks later I had.
- [06:56]
A
As if it's predetermined, as if there's some sort of.
- [06:59]
B
Yeah. Some sort of knowledge on, on, on. On the Guardians, if they are your guardians, if there is some. Something to that. But what was crazy is two weeks later I had to go back in the scanner and do the next phase of the study. Same dose, same experiment and no entities came as if to say they, you know, like. Bit like crying. Wol, you know, we've told you this isn't the cleverest thing to be doing. And of course it made me realize that it's all about context. You know, it's very much about the contextual factors of when you're doing these trips. Like what? You know, if you've got a massively loud device that you're basically sitting inside whilst you're doing the DMT, that's going to affect the outcomes. Because I think 80% of the medicine is the contextual factors that you're doing it. We know about mindset, right. How if you're, if you're in a very twisted place, you shouldn't touch anything psychedelic because it will. It's a non specific amplifier body set. You know, my friend Jackalocker and Mylin have written a paper around how important it is to well, be well rested. You know, the food that you've eaten all, you know, have you had a virus recently? You know, body sets critical in terms of context as well. And then your environment. Like so those three factors make so much.
- [08:11]
A
I'm sorry if you already said. I remember I asked you earlier, what, what was the specific purpose of this experiment?
- [08:16]
B
Yeah, I didn't answer that.
- [08:17]
A
Was there a hypothesis?
- [08:18]
B
Fasting consciousness really to explore consciousness, which is why I was interested in being part of that study. So it wasn't to do with depression or ADHD or can we help with this, that or the other. It was very much. Can we explore what consciousness is through dmt?
- [08:34]
A
Can we explore what consciousness is through dmt?
- [08:37]
B
Yeah, so that was really the.
- [08:38]
A
And okay, so they hook you up to an iv. Yeah. And give you. How does that work? How do they give you dm? How do they know how much DMT to give you? How do they know? Is there like a unsafe amount or like a limit of how much they can give you? And how long does it last?
- [08:54]
B
It's a great question. So this is the device that they use and this is basically what you would be having, if you were being anesthetized. So if you're going into, to have an operation, you want to have a continuous infusion of anesthetic to make sure you don't wake up. So all they've done is switch out the anesthetic for DMT and.
- [09:17]
A
Wow.
- [09:17]
B
And the reason why that study was kind of foundational and why Andrew Gallimore and Rick Strassman had theorized around this being possible. We didn't know really until this time. And I was subject zero in that study, like the first person to do all five different dosing sessions. But the, the main thing that we realized is that yeah, there is an increase in heart rate to begin with but it flat, it, you know, it stabilizes. So it was deemed then safe to explore. And now like Danny Gola for inst. Has just done 5 hours DMT extended state, which I believe is the current.
- [09:51]
A
How many hours did you do?
- [09:52]
B
I just did half an hour, half
- [09:53]
A
an hour because it was just a safety study.
- [09:55]
B
But I did different doses over the course of, you know, five, no three months. So every three weeks I would do a different dose and it would take you that time to kind of integrate the experience. And what was also interesting was the, you know, the entities themselves, you know, because everyone sees entities it seems. You know, I'll talk a little bit about Elusis and the project that we've got going on in the Caribbean where 74 of people that are doing DMTX are experiencing some sort of entity. And again, you know, I'm a scientist, I'm a professor, I'm, I'm still on the fence as to whether these entities are your archetypes or your higher self or you or you in the future or something you're tapping into. I know Robin Harris recently talked about that. Of course we're, you know, in our subconscious, we, we try to make sense of, of these, these, these inferences but I think the key thing is that they're so as, as, as we're seeing more and more that is a hyper real reality that, that has some sort of, you know, consistency. People are, there was the DMT nexus did this, the labyrinth where they actually crowdsourced, you know, people's trips to say are you going to this part of DMT space? Are you going to this part of DMT space? And I think that that's fascinating that people are going to the same spaces. And if we can, if we can actually put maybe six people in. I know with Anton Bilton, his, his vision is like, let's get six people launched at the same time and see
- [11:33]
A
if they experience this thing together, see
- [11:35]
B
if they go to, to a comm.
- [11:38]
A
So how did they figure out like what this, no one's ever died from dmt, right? I know people, people have died from ibogaine.
- [11:47]
B
Yeah.
- [11:47]
A
And from other things because of the heart rate issue.
- [11:49]
B
Yeah.
- [11:50]
A
Lots of other psychedelics people have died from but never with dmt.
- [11:53]
B
Yeah.
- [11:53]
A
So how did they figure out how to measure that and like how like pharmacologically mixed with your body and how that all works?
- [12:02]
B
That was, that was a big part of the pilot.
- [12:04]
A
I feel like I would have been asking them so many goddamn questions. Yeah, I was the first patient.
- [12:08]
B
Yeah. So, so I think that the key thing is you, you know, you have an amazing care team, the best scientists in the world, the best psychedelic minds and you're in safe hands. And of course they, they start low, they dose low and like you say, the good thing about DMT is it's, it's very safe in terms of it's non, it's not toxic.
- [12:27]
A
Yeah.
- [12:27]
B
And you know, I think that for me it's, I've, I've always been fascinated by, by, by consciousness and looking at consciousness from multiple angles so I'm happy to, to push, you know, to push the boundaries, to find out where they are but I know that, that what I was doing there was very safe and, and it obviously made me very intrigued as to how far we can go with these durations etc.
- [12:53]
A
So what have we learned about consciousness?
- [12:56]
B
Well, as I was telling you earlier, one of the big findings from the publications from Chris was that it seems that you are asleep effectively on dmt it seems like you're in a dream. The signature of the brain is that you're dreaming. And again, you know, this is one of the, obviously it's very different to dreaming but for me it's, you know, it's the same when I go into, we'll talk later about, you know, that's very interesting. The sacred sites also seem to put you into this trance like state, you know, we've had. I can show you later the, the brainwaves being measured in the King's chamber in the great pyramid with 10 of us being, you know, being eg measured and actually seeing that we've got very high delta. It looks like we're all asleep whilst completely sober, but the architecture itself is doing something. And again it's like, what's the connection between dreaming psychedelics and sacred sites? There seems to be a golden thread between them.
- [13:56]
A
There's also people who are alleged UFO experiencers. They put these helmets on and try to measure that, do an EEG on them. And they said the same thing. They said their brains look like they're in a sleep state. Yeah, yeah, Very, very strange. So how many times did you do this?
- [14:16]
B
So that DMTX study was five different dosing sessions, five different doses, five different. And, and again, one point Chris was like, do you want to come back? We've got, we've got an opening. Do you want to come back after two weeks? And I was like, definitely not. Because you need the three weeks to integrate what you're learning. And I think that the entities also aren't so happy about you being, being there too often because I've had the message you, you know, you're coming back too frequently, you know, we'll happily still do the work on you. As if, you know, a lot of it seems to be some sort of psychic surgery. They're working on physical elements or they're giving of. It's very moral, I find. They're giving you relationship advice. It's like, you know, you're doing this well, you're not doing so well here. It's kind of like a, some sort of mystery school that you're tapping into.
- [15:03]
A
And while you're doing it, are you somehow communicating with people in the room? In the room, yeah.
- [15:10]
B
The interesting thing about DMTX is that you, you know, you're unlike a 5 Meo experience where you kind of are like a lot more out of body. You know, it's DMTX for me. You know, you're, you're, they're asking you questions every, I mean this is part of the problem. They're asking you every two minutes. How intense is it now, Carl? How anxious are you now, Carl? You know, and I'm like, guys, do you, you know, telling me the time effectively by asking me every two minutes and also asking me if I'm anxious. Not the, not the ideal kind of settings for a psychedelic experience. So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a subject. So I'm having to give data. And what is interesting and useful about that is, you know, if I've given a rating of 10 out of 10 for intensity, then in the interview directly afterwards, Chris does these micro phenomenological interviews where you are asked to repeat the experience directly after you've had it. So not to remember it but to go in and have the experience again to the best of your ability, guided by those ratings.
- [16:16]
A
Yeah, it seems like it would be frustrating because all those questions, having to interact with the scientists asking you questions would keep one foot in the real world and you'd be, wouldn't be like fully enveloped in that DMT experience.
- [16:25]
B
It's definitely a double consciousness kind of experience that you're in both, much like in a VR experience where you, you know you're in a game environment, but you also know you're in the real, real room. And the same with, with a lot of this. It's like you, you know, you're having an internal experience, but you're also very embodied in that.
- [16:43]
A
Starting a business is a big deal, but what really surprised me was how much simpler Shopify made it for us. We use Shopify for Arbor store, and it's helped us recently revamp our whole entire site with new products. And it was super easy. And from day one, the tools were super simple and easy and I didn't have to feel like I had to learn a whole new profession to get it done. The design part was way easier than I expected. Shopify's templates and AI tools helped us get the storefront looking clean, professional, and real without needing to touch any code. And then once people started going to our store and buying, Shopify's checkout made a huge difference. Customers move through it fast. Returning buyers can check out in a click. And that's when you hear that little, because the process just works. And if you hit a wall, Shopify has Sidekick built in. It's their AI assistant. And it helps you troubleshoot, build, and keep moving without wasting hours stuck on one silly problem. All you need is the idea, and Shopify can handle the rest. Start your free trial today@shopify.com Danny Jones Again, start your free trial at shopify fy.com Danny Jones shopify.com Danny Jones so what do you think's going on when we take these psychedelics and our consciousness seems to be, like, ejected from our bodies and like, do you think there's lots of theories? What do you think?
- [18:04]
B
I mean, I'm very much, you know, an explorer of these spaces. And I think that there is kind of a, an exchange and there seems to be a very different ontology. So if we think about, like, thinking, feeling, being in this realm, that's our, that's our way of, you know, existing. I think that they find that very interesting and they can learn from us as, as test subjects. Like, I'll show you a visualization of the fifth dose. And it's like there's a playpen being constructed around you for you, you to be observed. And it does feel like you're popping up into their space. And one of the dangers, I think, of dmtx, is that you could end up colonizing that space because, you know, you know, they probably tolerate us in these short durations, popping into their space and find us kind of not, you know, a bit like when you. You have a spider in your house and you put a glass over your. Over the spider and have a look at this before you put it back the. In the wild. That's my hunch that, that there is kind of, you know. You know, I think that. That there are aliens and we are also aliens. And I think that, you know, of course, it's like the typical hubris of humans to think that we're unique and that we're the only intelligence. And. And you know what I find interesting about AI is that suddenly it's revealing the languages of all these other species. And of course, they're all very conscious. And, you know, this. The, the whales, for instance, have their own phonetic Alphabet.
- [19:36]
A
Yeah. What Andrew Gallimore explained to me really stuck with me about how, like, the, the, the five senses we have are like brain filters or whatever that keep us away from the rest of it. They're like, they're filtering out everything that's really there so that we can survive in the world.
- [19:52]
B
That's right.
- [19:52]
A
Right. And then what this is doing is stripping away the five senses we have and exposing everything to us. Yes, I really. That really makes a lot of sense. But, like, the problem you prove that.
- [20:05]
B
Well, this is, this is why it's interesting that now Andrew's collaborating with Don Hoffman. We just literally launched the Trace Institute in LA a few days ago. And that is basically an opportunity for us to test Don's theories. And, you know, Don's talking about this kind of VR headset that we're all wearing and how space time itself is a construct, and it's a construct of consciousness. So he's an idealist.
- [20:33]
A
Space time itself is all a construct.
- [20:35]
B
Yeah. And. And the idea that basically everything's arising from consciousness. So instead of.
- [20:41]
A
Right, so consciousness is fundamental.
- [20:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. So Annal Seth, for instance, he would say that your brain is producing consciousness. So that's a materialist perspective. And the, you know, the, the idealists think that you, you're, you know, your body is being produced through consciousness. Everything's arising from consciousness. So if we were to talk about and even in the recent launch, you know, Don saying that, you know, our headset is kind of faulty and I've done a whole TEDx talk at Oxford talking about the fact that when we look in the mirror we don't see ourselves as we are we the mirrors flipping the image back to front. So when you actually see yourself in a true mirror, which is two mirrors at 90 degree angle, that's when you see yourself as you actually look and you. Yeah, and you know, it's just like, you know, you can do it, you can mirror sometimes on a webcam and you actually switch and you actually look like that. Other people see you as you look, but you don't. And also the way you hear, you know, when you suddenly hear yourself, you hear yourself a lot, right?
- [21:41]
A
Yeah.
- [21:42]
B
When you hear yourself on a recording, it's not as you imagine you hear. So you're in a perceptual locked in since you're sort of already in a virtual reality and other people have a, have a, have a better understanding of you in terms of sound and visuals than you do.
- [22:00]
A
Right. Well, not today's day and age. Now everyone, you can see yourself on video and on audio 247 making videos of themselves.
- [22:06]
B
That's true. But then a lot of people are getting nose jobs because their mirror is their phone and they're holding it at a certain angle. So they get this. You know, it comes back to the Renaissance where we actually decoded space as linear perspective, whereas actually we see in curvilinear perspective. But all of our cameras, all of our media is all based around linear perspective. So this a fundamental flaw there. So we're kind of locked in to our VR headset as Don says. And as you said with Andrew, we now have the ability with DMT to maybe upgrade the headset and start to actually experience reality in a way that isn't confined to the five senses. So that you actually have this kind of new way of testing and they went through the whole, all the different tests that we want to do at Elusis in the Caribbean because now we have the opportunity to do DMTX and to bring in people. For instance, there's certain people that get locked out of dmt. I've heard this, you know, and, and David Luke for instance, one of my good friends, he did I think 50 doses of of DMT quite soon after each other on the River Ganges and was, was effectively locked out. He had like an orange screen over his experiences for 20 years until I think he did 20 years until he eventually did a study at Imperial and, and was unlocked. So what we want to looking at people that have got the locked locked out syndrome and then people that have maybe never been able to have any experience with dmt. No matter how much they do, they can seem to be genetically unable to experience it. And then normies. So we'll do a comparison between these three different groups and you know, it'd be great to do a call out to, to try and understand if there's people out there that have one of these, you know, different predicaments.
- [23:56]
A
So how would you upgrade the VR headset? Like if you're talking about our consciousness, you're saying that by the use of DMT therapeutically or something in some, with the use of some sort of protocol, we could increase our consciousness permanently somehow.
- [24:14]
B
Well, let me show you another image here. This is from, this is from Andrew as well. This is, this is quite old now in terms of his presentation of it. But this is his vision or what was his vision? I'm not sure because one of the reasons we started talking is because I'm very much in a, in a sort of hyper human focus thinking about the fact that we only live for a thousand months as humans. Only a thousand months, that's all we get. But yet we spend a lot of time trying to.
- [24:38]
A
How many years is that?
- [24:38]
B
83.
- [24:39]
A
Wow.
- [24:40]
B
So people don't realize, you know, it's such a brutally short existence and we spend a lot of our times trying to peek beyond the veil. Not really exploring actually probably what's the rarest thing, which is to be human. All right, so I'm really interested in, you know, how do we understand our potential, our latent potential that we may have atrophied through different, you know, through just basically being on our phones all day long. Because one of the crazy charts is that you've got a thousand, thousand months to live, but out of that thousand months you only have 300 months free time. And the average person uses 300 months on their phone.
- [25:15]
A
Have you seen those calendars they make?
- [25:16]
B
That's what I mean.
- [25:17]
A
Those are crazy. Yeah, those are insane. They really give you like a perspective.
- [25:20]
B
They really do. And that's the thing with like, you know, people just netflix themselves to death. So this is dmtx, kind of, you know, almost a bit tongue in cheek. But you know, Andrew's, you know, his vision is that, you know, you're kept in these pods and you have like waste management taken care of, so.
- [25:38]
A
Oh my God.
- [25:38]
B
So like food's coming in through a drip and waste. Coming out through like the matrix. Yeah, pretty much. And I remember him presenting this at the Tyringham Institute and all the shamers were just looking at each other going, this guy's absolutely bonkers. And, and yeah, basically this is, this is transhumanism 101 for, for DMTX. Whereas I'm like, let's not do this. Let's like, let's explore DMTX and go in for it with a particular intention with, you know, bring in specific types of skill sets into these spaces and try and solve mathematical problems, scientific problems, like really bring back information that now with the DMTX experience and especially, I
- [26:21]
A
don't think you're meant to stay there that long.
- [26:23]
B
And this is what will happen. We'll start colonizing the space and then we'll really have problems.
- [26:28]
A
I think we will start colonizing the space.
- [26:32]
B
Yeah. Because if you're, like I said before, like I've been told, oh, you're coming back too frequently, like, right. Don't be, don't be coming back so often. But we'll, we'll, you know, is an exchange, there is some sort of exchange going on and maybe that will be part of the upgrade that, you know, I'm, I'm always exploring. Having gone through these studies, you know, have I been left with not just an altered state but altered traits? You know, because even during the study There was only 12 of us that did the pilot study. Only four of us ended up doing all five doses. And what I found interesting was that there was, there was some, some, some skills being developed over that short period of time. Like for instance, I, I was having precognition. So I, I actually tapped into what my future mental state would be like six months from then. And I only realized when it actually came to pass that I was actually having this precognition, you know, and so I think that, that we can upgrade the headset with dmtx, but only if we do it in a very mindful, ethical, you know, mindful of what's going on on the other side as well. And, and really bringing through these sorts of, you know, can we solve scientific problems with this stuff and, and really look into.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah, well, it's just like dreams, right. We can't really remember dreams after they happen. Like, right when you wake up, you have a very good memory of it. Like when you get up and go to the bathroom, but then like, you know, 10 minutes later it's totally gone.
- [27:58]
B
Yeah.
- [27:58]
A
And I think that's by design the same way with dmt.
- [28:01]
B
Absolutely.
- [28:02]
A
I don't think we were meant to. I don't think we were meant to, which is why I think it's a great thing to like record it after you do it. Like an audio recording. Yeah, but.
- [28:11]
B
But now you.
- [28:12]
A
If we had, if we could lock those memories in the same way, you know, I can remember having breakfast this morning. I don't think it would be good.
- [28:19]
B
I, I agree. And what's interesting now, and I don't know if you've seen this Luma band, which apparently will. Will create lucid dreaming on demand. Have you ever had any lucid dreams? So this.
- [28:29]
A
I've had lucid dreams, yeah.
- [28:30]
B
So very rare.
- [28:31]
A
Not on purpose, but on accident.
- [28:32]
B
No, very rare.
- [28:33]
A
Right.
- [28:33]
B
I mean, most people only ever experience it once. I had a lucid dream and I was holding a calculator and I was consciously pressing the buttons and I was like, what a waste. Yeah. You know, it could have been flying. But. But this band. So again, it's the hyper human versus transhuman version of lucid dreaming. So lucid dreaming, you can, you can train yourself. Reality testing, right? So you do this, like looking at your hand. Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming? Just looking at your hand over and over again. And then you may end up looking at your hand in a dream and then you might notice one fingers longer than another. And that means that you're dreaming and you're like. And then the key is to not wake up. Not, you know, wake up from astonishment, because that's when you, you come, you know, you ruin the, the lucid dream. But imagine if lucid dreaming becomes a button, you know, just like now with the prompting, right, we're just pressing buttons. And that means we can potentially have lucid dreams on demand. And maybe we're not meant to, you know, maybe we are meant to do the training because it's hard.
- [29:29]
A
Yeah.
- [29:30]
B
You know, I think that there's a lot to be said for forgetting and the importance of forgetting, you know, much like, I don't know if you saw that Black Mirror episode where it was like two couples rowing and they were like, you said this. And they were like, no, you said this. And then they were like, let's have a look. And because they're recording everything through their contact lenses all day long, they just, they just rewound the. Yeah, there you go. It's just, just been launched.
- [29:52]
A
So what is this supposed to do?
- [29:53]
B
So this is transcranial stimulation whilst you're asleep. So it will know when you're in a REM state. And once you're in a REM state, it will. It will fire a small amount of transcranial, so electricity basically hitting the left or the right angular gyrus, and that's then meant to create this like lucid dreamlike state. And of course, it's super contentious. I think it's still on pre order. But, you know, I know a lot of people in the, in the dream science space, and this is just like, this is again, just the kind of the dystopian hell for, For a lot of people that really value what comes through through dreams. Because it seems like with dreaming it's like either you're just processing your day or you are like getting some sort of transmission from somewhere. And I think, like, same with all of this AI stuff where we're either atrophying the ability to sit to, to receive as channels, like receive something from somewhere. I mean, another example is this. A friend of mine has created this watch that you never look at, but you feel it. It. So it vibrates the minutes, the hours, the seconds. Right. So you, you literally turn time into a sense. So you know time. And I said to him, well, what's the benefit? He says, well, now I. I never burn pancakes because I know time. So he knows two minutes. It's not an abstract concept anymore. It's like, he knows time, so now he doesn't burn pancakes. I was like, is that really the point of this? Very invasive, like again, quite dystopian. Because I was like, well, what happens to flow states? Because flow states depend on not knowing the time.
- [31:23]
A
Right.
- [31:24]
B
What happens to ex. What happens to psychedelics when you. No time. And he wanted to give me one of these 50 watches because, you know, giving them to influencers. And I was like, I'll give it to some. I'll give it to a surrogate to wear it.
- [31:34]
A
You know, it's weird. There's this. It happens to me all the time. Like, I'm so reliant on having my watch. I feel naked without it. But if I go without my watch.
- [31:41]
B
Yeah.
- [31:41]
A
For a couple days, I. I know what time it is.
- [31:45]
B
There you go.
- [31:45]
A
Like, I can just get. I could like stop for a second. Like, I wonder what time it is. I would guess. And I'll go look at my phone and I'd be like, dead on within a couple minutes.
- [31:52]
B
So you're. Yeah, you've got the. And of course, it's a human construct. And we also, you know, I'm not only just interested in psychedelics, but cyberdelics, cyberdelics, cyberdaleics. So check out Cyberdelic Nexus. This is really the hub of all the different ways we can change consciousness with technology. So think of flicker lights. Have you ever tried like, a Roxiva or a Lucia light, which induces like an LSD trip just through flickering light. So you sit in front of this light with your eyes closed, and you start seeing colors that you, you know, it's only white light, but you're seeing full kaleidoscopic colors. It's totally wild. So binaural beats like mixed reality, virtual reality. But also we. I worked with the Cyborg Nest guys, and they created a new sense called the north sense, which was something you body pierced. It wasn't like, fully invasive, but it was like it was body pierced. So you would wear this thing and it would vibrate every time you face north. So eventually, after a certain amount of time, you knew you would know where north is. Right? Much like birds know where north is. We may have known where north is, but we lost that ability maybe through, you know, the, the first maps or, you know, now nobody knows where anyone is because we don't know where we are because of gps. Right? So we're constantly. We're constantly outsourcing that. And I think that that is a super interesting way of using technology. And there's again, a hyper human way of doing it, which is you can wear a belt and it will vibrate every, you know, for six weeks you'll wear this belt and then you remove the belt, and then you still have the north sense as opposed to something you have to wear permanently, which, which is the transhuman route.
- [33:33]
A
About a year ago, I got hit with a text about an unpaid toll. And then when I paid it, it turned out to be a scam. And that would have never happened if I had been using Cash App. And that is one of the primary reasons I now only use Cash App. Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With security lock. Cash App requires a successful face ID and biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen. Plus, if you're about to send money to somebody new and Cash App notices something might be a bit off or you might be falling for a scam, it sends you a warning before your money is sent. To confirm that everything looks right, turn on security lock in your Cash App settings today and pay attention to scam warnings and keep your money safe from fraud. Learn more at Cash App Security Moving your money should be simple, but it should also be safe. And that's why I love using Cash App. New Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use the code Secure10 in their profile at sign up and send $5 to a friend within the first 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners. Visit Cash App slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. People like to push back on technology and you know, AI taking over for humans abilities and you know, for everything. Even like mundane things like remembering how to drive around town or remembering phone numbers. Right. Like I used to really remember tons of phone numbers. Now I can remember like three phone numbers and like where it's going, you know. I had this conversation with Hamilton, Hamilton Morris once when he was explaining to me the difference between like natural drugs and since synthesized drugs. Drugs that are synthesized in a lab. Yeah, well. Well, if you really think about it, even drugs that are created in a lab by a scientist with using beakers and shit like that, that is, that's technically natural. Yeah, because we are part of nature and we are using our brains and our technology to create this stuff. And it exists on this earth, so it really is natural. But we just, we don't think of it that way. We think of stuff as like, as, you know, invasive or unnatural just because we created it and we used technology to create it.
- [35:51]
B
Yeah. I mean, if you think about 5 Meo DMT, which I find one of the most extraordinary chemicals on the planet, most of that is actually synthesized through melatonin. So it's just a simple chemical reaction to, to create five MEO DMT from melatonin. And Rick Stressman had a whole chapter on melatonin in his, in his, his. In his book. And I think, yeah, Hamilton is, you know, chemist, so he's lucky enough to be able to explore these things and explore.
- [36:19]
A
What do you think about Strassman's view on all this? I think his view is that basically when you take psychedelics, it is based on your priming of. He thinks it's like bringing out what's buried deep in your psyche and bringing it to fruition in this surreal way. Consciously.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, Strassman, I know he's not a fan of 5 Meo, but I think his.
- [36:45]
A
Oh yeah, he had a really bad trip on fire.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. As did Michael Pollan actually. And I was kind of, I was having dinner with Him. After that, he launched his how to change your mind book. And I was like, you can't like dismiss this because you had a bad trip and the whole of humanity listens to you and, and dismisses this incredibly. I mean, funnily enough, most of the clinical trials are really finding extraordinary results from five. Like the Beckley SciTech work, which is a nasal spray, which was the last study I did at Imperial. And you know, having a nasal route of administration meant that I had a 90 minute experience. 60 minutes of that was a plus
- [37:22]
A
10 on five meo.
- [37:23]
B
Yeah. Oh, my Lord, it was unbelievable. And you know, for me that, that trumps DMT in terms of. The way I see it is that we, we're here in the, in the, the, you know, third dimension and light is shining upon us. When you do DMT or ayahuasca or changa, it seems light is emitting from objects. Like you're seeing this hyper, hyper real, like, like light show from ob. Like things are coming out from, from, from people and objects and entities. And when you do 5 Meo DMT, it's like you become light itself. So it feels like we're having relations with light in different dimensions. I hate the word dimensions, but it's like we are, you know, all of these things all the time. You know, when we talk about dreaming, it's like your astral body or your light body. Yeah. You know, so it seems like there are. And I, you know, like the, the Kogi tribe, for instance, they keep their shamans in the, in the caves from birth for nine or 18 years. And you know, endogenous DMT seems to produce, seems to incubate in the dark.
- [38:30]
A
Whereas really.
- [38:31]
B
Whereas it's all about the light. Yeah. Check out the Kogi.
- [38:34]
A
So from the moment they're born, they stay in a cave 18 years.
- [38:37]
B
Yeah, nine or 18.
- [38:38]
A
I believe that seems terrible for people. For you. That seems like you would.
- [38:43]
B
And they're taught about the world in the dark and then they're there on their ninth birthday, they're brought out and said, look, we told you about the world and here it is as if.
- [38:50]
A
Wow.
- [38:51]
B
Yeah. So it'd be fascinating to, to study what's going on. Where's this trial in Colombia.
- [38:57]
A
Huh?
- [38:58]
B
Yeah. There you go.
- [39:00]
A
That's wild. Wow.
- [39:06]
B
So this was my like rudimentary, rudimentary sketch with Chris Timmerman where I'm like talking about these sort of levels of light. And another bit, another really interesting thing from, from Gallimore is that eventually we might, we might not need substances at all, but just magnets. So magnetoreceptors that can turn on and off receptors. So you'd wear something like this cap, and it would literally turn your receptors on and off. And I know with one of my friends, Kenneth at Stanford, he's in a study where they're. They're using ultrasound to direct ketamine to different parts of the brain. So they'll point like an ultrasound into. Into a specific part of the brain where they want the ketamine to go. Yeah, so I'm really fascinated.
- [39:53]
A
I had a gentleman on the podcast who said he was doing that, that. What was that guy's name? Anyways, he. He had this, like, ultrasound device that he uses on his temple, and he thinks it's like, somehow he thinks it could be used as a tool to alleviate Alzheimer's in people.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's. There's so much incredible research coming out in terms of, like, you know, even, like, longevity studies. That seems to be the case that with. With mushrooms, lsd, even ketamine, there seems to be a tangible benefit in terms of lifespan, so.
- [40:32]
A
Really?
- [40:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. There's recent papers, I haven't got the
- [40:35]
A
references here, but how would psychedelics increase lifespan?
- [40:39]
B
That's a great question. Great question.
- [40:41]
A
That seems wild. Yeah. So Strassman.
- [40:45]
B
Yeah.
- [40:49]
A
His view is that it's basically just pulling out everything that's already in you and like projecting it in some sort of a weird way where. Or maybe it's like synthesizing all of these neurons in your brain, like all these sensory neurons in your brain, maybe they're all collapsing into one thing where people describe DMT as being more real than real. Right. So if you're in a dream state and you have this chemical that's sort of like bringing all these neurons and neurotransmitters together, together to make some super, incredibly real experience that you're seeing in this actual visual, fully sensor, fully like sensory in every sense of the word way. Like, like the sounds, the smells, the colors, the visuals, you feel it and it's projecting it back to us. I feel like if we. I feel like most people would experience something like that for the first time and we would just automatically put so much meaning to something like that. Right. Instead of, like, looking at it as like a. Like a. Of what it. What is actually technically happening right there in the brain, maybe what's happening is like we're ascribing all this meaning to it and that when you add on all the contextual layer of psychedelics in our culture.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah.
- [42:10]
A
Right. What everyone knows about psychedelics. Anyone who's learned anything about psychedelics, they know. It's like, okay, this is what happens. We see, we see beings, we see little elves. It's geometric patterns. You. It dissolves the ego. It can do this, this and this. So maybe this is having some cascading effect because that's like what we're expecting when we go into it.
- [42:31]
B
Yeah.
- [42:31]
A
And if you gave somebody that was completely outside of our culture, that was not indoctrinated into any of this stuff that we know about psychedelics.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah.
- [42:39]
A
Someone, some tribe, maybe some like uncontacted tribe, gave it to him and see what happened to them, maybe it wouldn't be the same thing. And on top of that, they did that study with psilocybin at the Johns Hopkins Institute where they gave the religious professionals a bunch of psilocybin to see what would happen to them, what their experience would be. And every single one of their experience was mapped by their religious beliefs.
- [43:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:01]
A
Which is very interesting.
- [43:03]
B
Yeah, I, I mean, I think like, like dreams. You, you're either processing your, your, your worldview. You're, you're, you're trying to like, come to terms with whatever trauma. I mean, although I think it's very much drug dependent. Right. So if you were to do iboga or ibogaine, it seems to, you have a lot of people have a life review where you're experiencing your, your life even from pre birth. And I know a lot of people that have done iboga and they've got up to the age of six where they've been shown everything they've ever done wrong, you know, and then for, then they may do iboga again like years later. And they start from age 6 as if they've processed that part of their lives. And now they, they move through the life review. So it's, you know, I mean, I've, I've been very lucky to have a life review where I experienced my entire life in reverse, in episodic chunks on what combination of various things. But, but it was an incredible insight into death, you know, because maybe in death we have this kind of. Because I feel like we're in a lab, right. We're in a learning lab lab where we are wanting to really maximize our learning in. And I think death, my hunch's death is a massive expansion of consciousness. Not a, not a restriction or an elimination. And in this experience, I, I basically was able to leave my body in the, in the. So I was already in a Double consciousness. So I'm in my consciousness now, like I am talking to you. And then I was in my consciousness in the, in the Life review, going back in time in episodic chunks. It was really completely detailed.
- [44:39]
A
Wow.
- [44:39]
B
And what was amazing was that I was able to leave my body partly because I had an out of body at 27, which is a whole other story. And I was able to. I went and I decided to go into a table and became wood consciousness. So I was in a triple consciousness. And then I realized, well, maybe I can go into other people. So I went into another person. I was. I was having their experience of me and myself at the same time. And I think that's probably what karma is, that you think you get away with stuff in life, but actually most likely you will experience what you've done to somebody as them and you at the same time. So I think my hunch is that we are trapped in a point of view. Like we all feel like we're in this kind of locked in point of view state. And that's why psychedelics can give you a kind of holiday from the self, as elders Huxley would say. But in the death state, you are now given privy access, field of view access where you can enter anything in the scene and it can be any kind of, you know, animal, you know, anything in the scene. Books I'd ever. That I'd read, I could become the authors, films that I'd been in, I could become all the actors. But I had to have lived it in order to have access. So it made me realize, be careful who you spend your time with and also be careful where you go. Because like recently I went to Antarctica and the Amazon because I need to have those spaces in the Life review in order to access all the things in those spaces. So it's almost like there's no, you know, there's no time limitations. It's like. It's like your life becomes a product where you can explore it from them. You know, from the learning perspective. And I think that's my hunches to through this. And Life reviews are quite common. Like a lot of people have these Life reviews, whether it's induced through a psychedelic or a near death experience. But it is.
- [46:22]
A
I had at one time free diving when I almost. I was free diving in a cave and I couldn't find an exit and I had like a full rewind of my whole life.
- [46:28]
B
Really?
- [46:29]
A
Yeah, it was, it must have been. And in reality it probably only lasted 10 seconds.
- [46:33]
B
Yeah.
- [46:34]
A
But it felt like hours yeah, it was crazy.
- [46:36]
B
I had my entire life at that point. I was 40 and it went. It was an hour in real time, but it was 40 years for me. Perception.
- [46:42]
A
Wow.
- [46:43]
B
And it makes me think of those people that go to sleep and then they have a dream and they dream that they're in somebody else's life for like a year. So they'll have the same. You know, they'll live their life in this dream. They'll have their family, they'll have. They'll wake up and it'll just be a night that they've had this one year of experience, and then the next night they go to sleep again and have another year.
- [47:05]
A
Somebody was telling us a story the other day about Salvia Divinorum.
- [47:10]
B
I believe I was going to tell you. Yeah.
- [47:12]
A
And they were saying that, like, they had to live somebody's, like, entire life.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah.
- [47:18]
A
It only lasted maybe 10 minutes, but it felt like a eternity. And it was like torture for them.
- [47:23]
B
Absolutely.
- [47:24]
A
And then when they got out of the trip, they, like, they were missing the people and the places that they went in that life, and they were kind of depressed because they felt like they had. Those people had died. Yeah. And they were going through actual, like, trauma from it.
- [47:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly.
- [47:38]
A
What the, dude. Yeah.
- [47:40]
B
And of course, it's like, you know, choose your own adventure. Right. I mean, it's really. You've got to be careful. Like, you know, I'm very careful about what I let in in terms of, like. I don't tend to watch horror films.
- [47:53]
A
I don't.
- [47:53]
B
Because it tends to sit in your subconscious, and it's a storehouse. And, you know, I'm very conscious about, like, what I'm. What I'm experiencing. So I'm driving my point of view to access the field of view, much like my journaling practice. So I've been writing a journal for my entire life. I don't know whether you write a journal, but it's an incredible practice. Again, very psychedelic because I'm able to jump out of point of view and go into field of view so I can go into the whole. Like. Let me just show you this. So I can go into the whole space and explore it from a, you know, from this kind of, like, field of view perspective. And what's amazing is that I. That I ended up really going into. Going to town with this. So this is the structure. So I. I have three different levels to the journal. So I write content, what I did, and that's all written in a Word document. And that's the doing aspect. Then what I felt is captured through video. Mostly that's context, so that's the feeling element. And then notebooks is all like, like written by hand. And again, the hyper human thing is all about whole brain activity. So whole brain activity is like playing an instrument, singing, writing, all of these things that we're losing because of the way we're using technology. But what I find interesting about having this database now of like almost 40 years of data is that I've got thinking, feeling, doing, which is actually the perfect data set for an AI. Well, I'm not going to go there, but you know, I think what, what's interesting is that, you know, as Kierkegaard says, life must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards. So unless you have a trace of what you've done. And of course we have our memories. But I can, I can do things with this diary where I can look, take cross sections through it. So I look into this day last year and the year before and the year before and the year before and the year before.
- [49:38]
A
Yeah.
- [49:38]
B
And get 40 different me's communicating again. And wisdom is gained by taking a higher order perspective on your perspective. And it's all about this kind of sense making and understanding your life as a whole. And it's like, you know, you're, you actually don't want to be this kind of like middle of the road character. You want to have the extreme highs and the extreme lows because that's what makes, makes you, you. Right. The whole, the whole character. So I can actually say if I've been in a relationship for a year, I can read that whole relationship in an afternoon and get, suddenly get a bird's eye view over that relationship and see patterns start to emerge that I'd never, never notice in real time.
- [50:17]
A
Right. That you could have a blind spot too.
- [50:19]
B
Yeah. And, and it's, you know, I live my life in order to write my diary, and I write my diary in order to live my life. So it forces me to get new material for the body of work I have to maximize each day. And, and it also reveals the spiral. Like we, we think we're going in a linear sort of evolution, but actually we're, we're moving through this kind of spiral where sweat. Everything's repeated, everything's revisited until you kind of resolve it. And I love this line from Zizek. We don't really want to get what we think we want. You know, that whole thing that we live in and live in this virtual reality, this living of constant expectation. Oh, if I get here, this will be. And of course, for me, presence is longevity. You know, how do we. How do we not live in. In prediction mode? Because, like, that's why I love to travel. Because your brain is predicting everything. And if you stay in the same routine all day long, stay. Stay at home doing the same stuff, your brain never comes online. It's only when you're traveling that you don't know what's coming.
- [51:21]
A
Designed to conserve energy.
- [51:22]
B
Yeah, exactly. It's designed to survive. Designed to conserve energy. So you don't actually come online unless you are doing this kind of practice where you are maximizing your date, going out and talking to strangers, like, to have new material that isn't the same as novelty.
- [51:35]
A
Right.
- [51:35]
B
Yeah, novelty is key. And I think that this. This kind of journaling practice is again, upgrading the headset. Because I, I have this kind of super. Because I lose perspective, like, everyone twice a day, but suddenly I can be like, okay, now let's look at the month. And then I can see, oh, actually, I'm doing shitloads of stuff that's really, really good and really positive. And it's like, so this is kind of a psychedelic trip. And one of my other favorite lines is this one. I don't know if you've heard. Heard this Instagram channel healing from. Healing from. From my friend Adam. So, you know, there's so much healing going on. We're completely overwhelmed with this kind of like. And again, in. In the psychedelic trip, it's like, what is the trauma that's going to be revisited and like. But I think if we focus so much on our childhood traumas and everything that's broken about us, we'll be broken. You know, that's going to be the basis of our. And I think what we need to do is overcome. Not that it's like, not important to heal, but it's like, if you're going to focus all day long on healing, it's kind of. You're missing the point of this. 1,000 months, brutal, brutally short. Like, meat is here to be enjoyed and explored and shared.
- [52:37]
A
And, you know, that's a very good point.
- [52:39]
B
Yeah.
- [52:39]
A
Yeah. The. The putting it in the perspective of time and 1000 months really, really puts it all into. Really, like, makes you realize, like, I don't want to be focusing on anymore. Like, focus on the things that you want to focus on. Yeah, and the things that make you happy and the people around you happy.
- [53:00]
B
100%.
- [53:01]
A
Have you ever tried doing research for something you want to buy online. And before you know it, you got 250 tabs open and your computer is about to short circuit. That was me when we were recently looking for new office chairs. One site says the chairs are perfect, the other site says they destroy your back. And then you run into this whole phenomena of fake reviews. And before I know it, I'm comparing foam density like I work in a furniture lab. But now I only use dupe.com's research for me tool. You just type in what you're searching for comfortable office chair for a long recording day and dupe does the research for you in just minutes. It filters through real sources, compares options, breaks down features, specs and pricing and gives you a straightforward answer on what to buy and why. And my favorite part, it tells you what not to buy, which saves you from making an expensive mistake. So instead of wasting your whole day, use dupe and be prepared to save yourself a ton of time and money. Just go to dashupe.com and tell them what you're looking to buy.
- [53:56]
B
Buy.
- [53:56]
A
That'S-U-P-E.com to finally feel confident about what to buy. What we're going to look at your fifth dose.
- [54:03]
B
We're going to look at. Yeah, they're going back to the dmtx. Yeah. And we've got a nice video that I think you're going to show. Oh yes, that's.
- [54:14]
A
So let me. Okay, so explain what you did here.
- [54:16]
B
You.
- [54:18]
A
Did you record yourself?
- [54:20]
B
This. This is actually a soon to be released. Let me see if I can get to it. There it is. DMTX AI. Okay, that's the web address and it's a collaboration between new Nordics Josie and Andrew. And what we're, what we're seeing here is basically a prompt from the fifth dose of the DMTX experience for me, which was the most profound one by far. And, and yeah, once, once I'll talk
- [54:51]
A
you through how did you create the prompt?
- [54:53]
B
So it's, it's an engine basically that Josie has created and we will launch it for, for use by anyone who wants to visualize their trips, basically.
- [55:03]
A
So what do you do you record yourself while you're tripping or what?
- [55:06]
B
No, this is just. This is a. Obviously, yeah, if you, if you want to have a good, a good. Like you were doing with your dreams, like trying voice record as you wake up. So I would always recommend voice recording after trips just because it's so, so much easier than you know. Although I do love writing by hand. If the quickness of a Voice record. And then you could turn that voice record into a sort of, you know, quite a condensed prompt. Right. Which then would feed into this.
- [55:34]
A
Got it.
- [55:35]
B
Then this creates the.
- [55:36]
A
And this will recreate your experience.
- [55:38]
B
This will recreate your trip. Yeah.
- [55:39]
A
So this was your lat, your, your final DMTX experience.
- [55:42]
B
Yeah, this was the, the Kundalini rush at the beginning of the experience, which I always get with dmt. So from the base of the spine and then you enter a space where it's like you're made of this mesh, this orange that, you know, sort of. Wow, triangular mesh. And then it's a playpen, like this thing forms a playpen where the entities get to watch you. Just like I said about the spider. And then I enter a space of like interfaces, which is, you know, maybe partly as you were saying, that I'm processing the fact that I'm a computer scientist and I'm always like staring at screens and then I'm getting this kind of GUI interface with like one interface following another interface following another interface and it's all just incredibly complicated. And then I get this kind of reward from this octopus who hands me a key and I have to reach out at 270 degrees in the room to grab this thing. And that seems to cause this alien takeover of the space. Which then leads to the ultimate kind of revelation for me, which is that I'm staring at this white disc which is like the 5 Meo Unity space. And it's because I've always been asking what is causing the unity that you, you experience when you, you know, when you have a non dual experience and everything becomes like no longer subject, object, relationship, but everything's one thing and normally it's light. So, you know, a 500 meter breakthrough is like you become light itself. And I've always like, quite kind of, not in a rude way.
- [57:11]
A
I, I feel like there's different ways people could explain this. Like the way I describe this is like my soul being ejected from my body. Yeah. Like you leave back the material world behind you. Is that similar to.
- [57:23]
B
I, you know, it's an interesting one. I always feel as if I'm still embodied in a 5 experience, but it's, it's very much the body has become part of the light, you know, and I'm, I'm always asking what's producing this because it feels like it's the ultimate reality. Right. That you're, you know, you're, you've, you've. I often think when I've done a 5 experience, I'm not going to come back that I've kind of, everything's gone up with me. It's like the universe has completed itself. But then of course you float back into your human experience and you're like wow, like that was, was utterly ridiculous. And then you're kind of like bridging God with, with the human experience. Like you kind of know that that's, that's what you are also. But I've always asked what's beyond the white room, like what's creating this non dual space. And I felt like the DMTX experience bridged the DMT experience with the 5 Meo experience because that white disc, it was quite speeded up but that white disc was at the bottom of my bed. Imagine I'm cannulated up a. I've got, got like blood going in one arm, I've got like DMT blood coming out this arm, DMT going in this arm and I'm seeing this white disc and I'm like shuffling down the bed, sort of like trying to get in the hole. I must have looked hilarious on, on with the, with the, the team looking at me. But of course I'm just like seeing this white hole which looks like the Unity experience but I'm away from it, I'm far away from it. So it, I have this kind of experience of it cracking open and as it cracks open, instead of it revealing like a duality again, it reveals a plurality of unities as if to say there's not just our non dual experience, but there's a multitude of unities that you're not privy to but it still exist. And maybe it's, maybe it's some sort of evidence of a multiverse.
- [59:07]
A
That's bonkers.
- [59:09]
B
It was, it was an extraordinary thing because I'd always ask the question, that's when I got the key, as if to say we're going to show you something that you don't normally get access to. And that's why I'm excited about, you know, taking these studies to the Caribbean where we can actually do these studies in nature. Because if you think again about the context, you're doing these things in a hospital ward where you associate, you know, hospitals with death, dying, disease and then you're actually trying to trip in that context. Of course you're not going to get optimal results and they do their best to try and pimp out the room and like maybe make it look like you're on the beach or whatever. But now we can actually go to the Caribbean. We can, can you imagine the scene. So you have a light breakfast where you go out snorkeling on the Barrier Reef. Then you come back and you have like a three hour lonely Lomi massage. And then you go into your DMT experience which can be kind of curated so you know, you can actually increase the dose whilst you're in the trip. So when you do ayahuasca, which is around 20% DMT, now you're taking 100% DMT, but you can go in in baby steps. So you could start at like 3 or 4 milligrams and just get your toe in the water and say, okay, I'm now are at least in the space. And then you can do your first bolus and get a launch and then, you know, can be pulled out of it quite rapidly because it's a curatable trip because it's going continuously in your arm. So I really like that idea of, you know, this kind of, you know, it's much more curatable as a journey and therefore, and potentially like, I would love to see an opportunity because one of the things I would love to do during is to draw, draw what I'm, what I'm experiencing because I'm always seeing this language at the core of my vision, which is holographic, right? It's like I can walk around it and it's persistent. I always get these three motifs in a DMT trip. The first one is I see a signer, the corner of my vision, which is like, you're doing well, do more, do more, take more dmt. And then it's like, you've done enough DMT and it's always like a female presence. Imagine like the normal signer on your TV that's saying you're doing sign language. This is always there. And then at the core of my DMT Europe, I'm seeing this language that looks hierarchical, it's hieroglyphic, it's, it's modern and ancient at the same time. I want to draw it, you know, and I've never been in a clinical study where they let you take off the blindfold and actually just sit there and have your, you know, see what you're seeing in your. Oh, you're wearing a blindfold always.
- [61:31]
A
Yeah, interesting.
- [61:33]
B
That's generally what happens in a clinical trial. You're very rarely given the opportunity or the freedom to actually, like, like, you know.
- [61:39]
A
Have you tried the thing with the laser, the. Where you see the code in the laser?
- [61:43]
B
Not yet. Have you?
- [61:44]
A
I've tried it, yeah.
- [61:45]
B
How did you Go.
- [61:46]
A
I saw a bunch of dicks. I saw 20 trillion dicks flying through the laser at me.
- [61:51]
B
There you go.
- [61:51]
A
Well, the first time I saw, the first time I did it, I saw something in there where it was like a bunch of gears spinning and then I could see code looked kind of like Sanskrit, like the, from Lord of the Rings.
- [62:02]
B
Right.
- [62:03]
A
And then, then I did it again like a third time, like in the same, in the same setting. And then the final time I saw it, it was like infinite dicks. And I thought maybe that was like them telling me to off probably.
- [62:17]
B
Yeah, I really like that. That's it.
- [62:19]
A
That it was hilarious.
- [62:20]
B
Not a subtle like. Yeah, get the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, I think what's interesting is like, because we're doing this, this project in the Caribbean, elusismind.com and it's basically, you know, Andrew's involved as well. And what's interesting about it is that that like I said, 78% of people are seeing entities, but not just entities, but the children of entities. They're being introduced to their children. You know, it's like really getting completely bizarre, like in terms of, like I said, these curable trips where people are
- [62:51]
A
going in on the intravenous dmt.
- [62:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think that what's interesting is the, you know, it's the largest legal DMTX project in the world right now. We've done put probably 50 people through the protocol and we're, you know, we're doing research. It's kind of seamless research in the sense that we don't want people to feel like they're research participants because they are like, you know, they're there to explore, you know, their own consciousness. And it's, you know, a lot of the time that these things in a clinical setting are kind of imposed upon you that you will, you will follow the protocol and you don't have much say in like, in what anybody who does the study.
- [63:28]
A
Has there been any participants who have never done psychedelics before?
- [63:32]
B
Yeah.
- [63:33]
A
Really?
- [63:33]
B
Yeah, which is a pretty hardcore like thing. I mean, I've also done again in the Netherlands where I've been to these SILASA experiences and then the icebreaker on a Friday night as you turn up at this, at this very beautiful like location in a chateau or whatever, and the first thing you try is 5 Meo DMT. No, in front of everyone else. So you're sitting there with maybe 15 other people and you maybe you're further first ever drug experience is 5 Meo. And depending on how well you do is then deciding your dose of your siloasca for the main event on the Saturday.
- [64:08]
A
It's so crazy, man.
- [64:10]
B
It really is. But I think, yeah, it's, it's fascinating that, that we now have this, you know, this ability to, to do a plug and play model, which is kind of my role there. I'm kind of. I've gone from this idea of theorizing what context engineering looks like. How do we create the perfect pre context and the post context. And again with cyberdaleics, it's like some of these cyber delic experiences are just as powerful as a psychedelic and the space needs to be held and the space needs to be designed before and after for real integration. Because I think one of the big problems with altered states is that it's all about just give me the next peak experience. Give me the next peak experience. Nobody's integrating anything. Right. And it's all about. It's like epiphany porn. You know, you get your, you get all these epiphanies and you don't do anything with them. You know, there's no kind of like it. You know, where's your vitamin G? Have you, have you, have you been grateful for these insights that you've been given? Have you done anything with them? Or you just. On to the next one. So I'm really interested in this idea of altered states curating altered traits.
- [65:15]
A
Right.
- [65:15]
B
What are altered traits actually look like? What behaviors do we want. Want to. To garden?
- [65:20]
A
You know, and there's also another problem with it is there's also evangelists in the psychedelic space. There's people that think psychedelics are the answer to everything and people that want to monetize it to. To the nth degree and you know, not including but not limited to the church.
- [65:36]
B
Yeah.
- [65:37]
A
You know.
- [65:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think the whole magic bullet idea is a really dangerous one.
- [65:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think it's not. It's definitely not for everyone, dude. There was people that definitely were not meant to do this stuff stuff. And especially not habitually and on a normal basis. But like, you know, it's like they. People that get in, some people that get into this stuff, they just become like the psychedelic door knockers where they're just trying to push it onto everyone. It's the panacea for everything it could cure. You know, it's going to cure every disease. It's going to also, you know, fix religion. It's going to bring back Jesus. You know, it's just, it's just never ending. Yeah. And you Know, know, on top of that it's the obvious stuff where you have a huge corporation is trying to monetize it and trying to patent it and you know, you even see these things with like the, you know, the ibogaine research that's happening right now and trying to like push it through the fda, which is like, you know, by and large. Yeah. Is that a good thing? If it's done the right way? Hell yeah it's a good thing. Way better than you know, pushing pharmaceutical drugs on people that are, you know, causing people to die and you know, go crazy. But like, like when you realize and you look behind the curtain and you see like all like the, the billion dollar corporations that are also tied to pharma that are like positioned in the perfect way and then are already have the patents and see how they're like locked in on this. They're going to make billions of dollars and they're going to do whatever they're going to. Not that, not that making money is bad. Yeah, I'm just saying like there's a pattern and there's a huge system behind all of this stuff that is going to capital. Anything that gets regulated, anything that becomes normal. Normal is going to get like hyper systemized and it's going to be, they're going to take advantage of it and they're going to just make tons of money off it, you know.
- [67:21]
B
Yeah, I mean I'm very lucky because I've as a, as, as a participant on the Imperial trial because I had the knowledge about how to improve the protocols. You know, Egan phones me up one Christmas and it's like I'd love, love you to, to come to, to join us at New Nordics as a director and what I love about the not for profit approach is that it's like what can these things really do? Like what is the, you know, what is the real SETI of the mind? Like, you know, SETI is like something somebody donated $300 million to like searching radio signals externally. But what about what's going on internally when we have this much cheaper way of exploring our own consciousness and yeah, maybe I can just talk you through some of the, some of the missions that we got going on. Because I think that it's like by
- [68:08]
A
the way, has there anyone ever like during a DMT trip where two people have done it in the same room together, has anyone ever reported like sharing the space together?
- [68:17]
B
It's a good question. I know Hyperspectral SC is called. No. Is it hyperspectral? Hyper something At Imperial, where they had two people going in at the same time. I don't. I don't think that's been published yet. You should get Chris Timmerman on and, and explore that.
- [68:32]
A
We going to show us something?
- [68:33]
B
Yeah, yeah. So this is new nautics. So these are the, these are some of the, the missions at the moment. Already mentioned the work with Hoffman. So Andrew and Hoffman, there's a video coming out of the launch of the Trace Institute.
- [68:48]
A
Endogenous DMT is very interesting.
- [68:50]
B
Yeah. And we were also doing a. A study with the University of Florida where there's this peptide that may be the. The brake pedal of dmt. Naturally occurring.
- [69:01]
A
Right.
- [69:01]
B
And if we can actually start to. Yeah. Explore what's going on.
- [69:05]
A
What's the dude's name who's studying this again? The gentleman that we had on studying.
- [69:10]
B
Chris McCurdy.
- [69:11]
A
Yeah, Chris McCurdy.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah. If you want to show the little.
- [69:13]
A
Remember Chris McCurdy, Steve? Oh, yeah, he came in. He. So. So he thinks that Alzheimer's. See, this could be something or not. Alzheimer's, schizophrenia.
- [69:20]
B
Yeah.
- [69:20]
A
This could be studied for schizophrenics that if they, if their brake pedal to endogenous DMT is broken. Broken.
- [69:25]
B
Yeah.
- [69:26]
A
They may just be getting too much endogenous DMT and it could be driving them crazy again.
- [69:30]
B
It's like, what's the hyper human way of doing this and what's the transhuman way? Because it's like you say, if people are constantly like getting too much of something, it's never. Yeah, never normally a good thing. But we've got Andrew Gallimore talking through that study with uf. If, if you can play it otherwise, I'll move on to the next one. We've known since the 1950s that DMT is present in the human body and is almost certainly produced by the human brain, but we still know next to nothing about how it's controlled or regulated. But in the 1970s, an important paper was published, but which was subsequently ignored for the next half a century. This paper showed that in mammalian brain, first in rabbits and then in human cerebrospinal fluid, there was a peptide. This peptide worked to. To suppress endogenous DMT production by inhibiting the key enzyme in endogenous DMT production, indolethylamine methyltransferase, or inmt. Unfortunately, this paper failed to completely characterize this peptide. So we know nothing about this peptide beyond the fact that it exists and that it regulates endogenous DMT production. What we would like to do is to complete this work, to properly isolate and characterize this peptide and increase our understanding of how it plugs into the system that regulates endogenous DMT production.
- [71:04]
A
Very interesting.
- [71:05]
B
There you go. So we're, we're quite a bit of a way into that. I can't tell you too much about how that's going, but. So you've, you've seen the DMTX AI 1 run.
- [71:13]
A
DMT's in everything, right? It's in every animal and every plant.
- [71:16]
B
Absolutely.
- [71:17]
A
That's insane.
- [71:18]
B
So if you just bring up the screen again, I'll talk you through some of these other ones. So DMTX AI is the, is the visualizer, so that'll become available soon. We're wanting to do this study with the lockout effect. So people that have been locked out of dmt, please get in touch. And then the, the archaeological stuff. So we're not just looking at psychedelics, we're also looking at. Let me see if I can bring this one up. This. So we talked a little bit about the second Sphinx. So what, what's, you know, fascinating about Egypt. And I go to Egypt with, with friends and I take people on these tours where we go underneath the Giza Plateau, we go to sites that you don't normally get access to. And Filippo Bondi I connected with recently has obviously identified potentially the second Sphinx. But we're working with him to, to com. To combine his SAR data with our hyperspectral data. So we've just done a whole scan. New Nordics have done a whole scan of the Giza Plateau. So SAR data seems to reveal these buried structures, roads, etc, but hyperspectral data detects subtle soil chemistry changes, crop marks and associated human activity. So if there is a second Sphinx, maybe we will be able to, to help corroborate that. And one of the other things was the, this website that will be launched soon, which enables anyone in the community to point this satellite. So unlike Filippo with the SAR data which he's just buying from databases that exist, this is actually the SAR data he's buying. Yeah. So the SAR data, he's not gathering that from a satellite. I believe he's actually. This came up on one of your recent podcasts that it's a database of SAR data that already exists, that you can purchase, so you can buy SAR data from specific parts of the world. But what we're doing here is gathering hyperspectral data from a satellite where we can point it anywhere we want. And you know, considering all the mysteries around Egypt, you know, one of the things that we know is that they don't necessarily want people digging into, into these mysteries, but they really can't stop, stop satellites looking into, into these sites. Right. And so, yeah, so we're really interested in opening up the space and people that, that think there may be stuff buried somewhere, whether it's pyramids or. Because, you know, even in, even in Egypt I think there's something, something crazy like, you know, the massive amounts of stuff still on, on under the, under the sand.
- [73:52]
A
Yeah. And so tell me more about the Sphinx. I don't know much about the second Sphinx. I saw it, that, I saw it on social media, but I never actually looked at it. Did he, how did he discover this?
- [74:02]
B
So again with the saw data, he's, he's discovered it.
- [74:05]
A
And can you find, or did you.
- [74:07]
B
Yeah, see if you can look at, look up, see what you can find
- [74:09]
A
about Filippo Biondi's second sphinx. And we can just sort of like hash it out.
- [74:14]
B
Yeah, you can see very sort of rudimentary where it's facing, but when you actually go into the Sphinx, in the pause of the Sphinx, you can see on the, you know, on, on the, on the, on the, the pillar that's in the middle of the Sphinx is, there's two of them, you know, there's two sphinxes. So seems to be one's about, you know, welcoming the sun and one's about the sun, sun going down. I, I really interesting, but it does, I did see the imagery of, you know, of what it looks like and it does look the right sort of size is covered in sand and debris. But what an amazing thing. If we find if, if there is indeed a second sphinx.
- [74:53]
A
Yeah, that would be insane. But like, so he found this with this satellite as the synthetic aperture radar stuff.
- [75:00]
B
That's right. Supposedly. And of course it's all conjecture, much like what's going on underneath the pyramids. And I know that until this stuff's peer reviewed, then it's all just hearsay. But to be fair to Filippo, he did scan the Azara shot shaft, and the Azara shaft was scanned without him actually going there from, just from the SAR data, because I take groups down there twice a year and I know there's three levels to it and you know, I know where the bottom is. But in the, in his scans there is three more levels. So that gives me hope that what he's doing is, is spot on.
- [75:37]
A
Okay. From the Miami Herald of all publications, viral claims of a second and sphinx at Giza are false. Of course archaeologists say they're false. So does it have a link to like try to find the original source of how Filippo, like what Filipo said, did he include any imagery? Did he include any of the SAR data? Maybe it was an interview. Maybe he was just like an off the cuff statement that he said he
- [76:07]
B
did a full, a full world exclusive at this event in Portugal. Uhhuh. I don't think it's been released yet. But he did go into a lot more detail in terms of, you know, his history and why he's a bit of a voice in the, in the scene where, you know, he's using this in his professional day life. But the, the positioning of it seems to be, you know, very interesting in terms of the maths anyway.
- [76:34]
A
Yeah, the thing about the, the giant shafts below the pyramid, which I'm not, I'm probably just not smart enough to understand how this stuff works. But like if you look at the raw data and then, and then you look at the 3D renderings that he came up with, it's like, whoa, completely. How did you come up with this out of this, you know?
- [76:54]
B
Yeah.
- [76:54]
A
And then if you also look at the scan they did of the Coffre pyramid, it shows two giant king's chamber sized chambers in the center of the Coffre. And we know for a fact that those aren't there. Right. So like you're getting false positives on some certain things. And anyways, I had Jeffrey drama. He explained it all. Yeah, really beautifully. You also said you were, you were scanning some other like ancient sites or something like this.
- [77:25]
B
Yeah, my first job. I can show you this. This is the palace of Darius in Persepolis. This was the. Yeah, I was, I was in the midst of the dot com burst. I don't know if you remember that end of the, you're probably not old enough, but end of the 90s, 90s. I remember 2000, so I was doing a computer science degree and you know, learning Java programming. And then suddenly because I had an art history background, I was, I was able to, to jump into, into doing this, this project which is reconstructing the palace of Darius in Persepolis.
- [77:57]
A
And where is this palace?
- [77:58]
B
This is in Iran. And this is what it looks like. Like, well, what it looked like. And it's very different to Egypt. And what I find fascinating about it is that, yeah, rather than depicting warfare and conquest, it's much more focused on dignity, harmony and legitimate rule. And I got in a taxi with a, with an Iranian and he was telling me about, you know, in Persia the, the king was well loved and you know, you considered, considered him your dad. And when this is all just very, you know, probably a lot of hearsay, but Alexander the Great waltzed in and destroyed this site when it was pretty brand new and burnt it to the ground. But the embers protected so much of the foundations, as you can see in that, in that last shot.
- [78:42]
A
But that's what's still standing today.
- [78:43]
B
That's what's still standing today. I don't know how it is after the, after the Iranian war. Hopefully nothing worse, but yeah, probably got hit with a huge, huge site. It was only used for ceremonial purposes and you know, people would come to see specific, you know, the light hitting specific structures. But this is the smallest part of the structure. And what I like about it is that it's all about the thresholds as you move through the space. It's all to do with like changing perception. And so, yeah, you know, just extraordinary sight to have been working on. But then I did Cistercian abbeys in, in Yorkshire. So I spent seven years reconstructing ancient buildings around the world and I was very blessed to, to really explore, like to still have an academic role. Like it was all research projects, but to be able to spend so much time looking at, at these sites and lots of them are full of sacred geometry. And what was a sort of side effect of building all these things, even though I'm building them on a 2D screen, they're 3D structures, was that I started to generate memory palaces. Do you know about memory?
- [79:46]
A
Oh yeah.
- [79:47]
B
So what was amazing is that I started to place my PhD because I built this, this is like Fountains Abbey. This is the reconstruction as you can see in the, in the, in the inset image there.
- [79:58]
A
But it's an ancient Greek idea.
- [80:00]
B
Yes, yeah, exactly. So it's this idea that you, you know, you would, you would have a seven hour speech that you would then map into an amphitheater.
- [80:11]
A
Physical space.
- [80:11]
B
Yeah, but in your head. So you would map it into a virtual piece of architecture. And then in order to trigger the seven hour speech, you just had to walk through this, this memory palace to trigger your whole seven house speed speech. So it's very interesting. What did they have that we lost and what could we regain if we start to re, you know, revisit memory palaces? Because potentially I know a lot of people are already wearing glasses where we may get away from the tiny little bits, bits of real estate on our screen and then we're back in the World. Because the whole of your 180 degree field of view becomes. Becomes the. The kind of the basic interface.
- [80:47]
A
Well, it is very interesting because, like, even when I'm listening to audiobooks on tape in my car, when I'm driving.
- [80:52]
B
Driving, I'll.
- [80:53]
A
It could be Monday, and I'm listening to an audiobook in my car, and I'll be driving past a certain area.
- [80:58]
B
Yeah.
- [80:58]
A
And then Friday, I'll be driving past it with just music playing.
- [81:01]
B
Yeah.
- [81:01]
A
And I will remember the exact part of that book that I was listening to when I drive past, like, that house or that building. It's very interesting.
- [81:08]
B
Yeah.
- [81:08]
A
And the idea of the memory palace came from this ancient Greek guy who was in a palace that collapsed.
- [81:13]
B
That's right.
- [81:14]
A
And then he had to go around the whole palace and he was, like, trying to remember visually who. Who was sitting where. Yeah. So he could, you know, figure out where they were and try to rescue them out of there.
- [81:23]
B
Yeah.
- [81:23]
A
And now these memory ch. These memory athletes who compete in these mem. Memory competitions, this is what they do.
- [81:30]
B
Yeah.
- [81:31]
A
They go to a physical place and like a. Just. Just, for example, say, a house or whatever, and they'll say, okay, I got to remember this thing. Well, part one is going to be the mailbox. So I'm going to associate this crazy visual imagery of, like a weeping coyote, and that's going to somehow link. Remind me about this page, about something. Right. And that's going to unlock the memory. So you start at the beginning. The beginning is at the mailbox of the house. And you associate that with something else, right?
- [82:04]
B
Yeah.
- [82:04]
A
And it's the same thing as you move throughout the house. The front door. You associate something else with the front door.
- [82:08]
B
What about the associations?
- [82:09]
A
It's crazy how it works.
- [82:11]
B
And the more vivid the association, the more likely it is to work.
- [82:14]
A
Yeah. I had this guy who's a memory champion on the podcast, and he said every time he reads a book, he reads the physical book and he reads it in a new physical location.
- [82:23]
B
Yeah.
- [82:23]
A
So it's easy for him to recall the book because he remembers where he was during that time and what he was doing.
- [82:28]
B
I mean, I know, like, somebody was gaming, and it was a Venice they were in. They were gaming some sort of. Some sort of game about Venice. And they got robbed in Venice. But because this game was like an accurate street map of the game of the. Of Venice, they managed to catch the thief because they knew the streets, even though they'd never been there.
- [82:47]
A
Oh, wow.
- [82:48]
B
So they. They did, you know, and I did a TEDX talk about this called An Ecology for the re. Enchantment of Life. And it was, it was all about these side effects of doing all this 3D modeling. Like for instance, I, I became a better driver because I could see further down the road. So it done something to my peripheral vision where I was able to sort of, you know, expand my, my vision so I could sort of see further. Because I'm building these huge structures even
- [83:16]
A
though I'm building them on 2D 3D modeling programs.
- [83:19]
B
Just. And this was early 2000s, I was using 3D Max and CAD. So it really had an impact on my consciousness doing 3D modeling. And I would encourage everyone not just to journal, but, but get on with some building of memory palaces. And you have to do it yourself. It's not something you can like, you know, generally if you're, if you're going through somebody else's game or whatever, that doesn't tend to stick because it's got to be something that you're building.
- [83:47]
A
So you're saying by building these 3D models of real places.
- [83:53]
B
Yeah, reconstructions.
- [83:55]
A
When you're actually there in real life, if you're able to see even.
- [84:01]
B
No, no, just side effects of building anything large in a 3D space meant that in real life I would, I was able to see more depth.
- [84:10]
A
Whoa.
- [84:11]
B
Yeah. It was just crazy. And it was like very obvious.
- [84:17]
A
That's very interesting. Like it did some sort of like neuroplasticity thing to your vision. Like doing some other sort of task that maybe like solidified the three dimensional depth of things in like a different language into your brain.
- [84:34]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [84:36]
A
That's wild. What is this?
- [84:37]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [84:38]
A
All right. Oh, you found it.
- [84:39]
B
I found, I found, I found a. A difficult one and an easy one. All right, fantastic. So his claim was made on. On some science journal.
- [84:50]
A
Is your mic on, by the way?
- [84:51]
B
Huh?
- [84:52]
A
Your mic's on. Yes, it is.
- [84:54]
B
So his claim was made on the science journal. You can see Filippo right there and it's like hella long.
- [85:00]
A
Yeah.
- [85:01]
B
And this is. It's just got a bunch of stuff with math. Kind of undecipherable. However, he made his claim officially.
- [85:09]
A
I mean, beyond that, usually there's a summary. Oh, yeah, go back, go to the top. If you go to the top, there should be a summary under abstract. There you go.
- [85:18]
B
Sure. All right.
- [85:19]
A
It says a problem with synthetic synthetic aperture radar is that due to the poor penetrating action of electromagnetic waves inside solid bodies, the capacity to observe inside distributed distributed targets is precluded. Under these conditions, imaging action is provided only on the surface of the distributed targets. The present work describes an imaging method based on the analysis of micro movements in the Khnum Khufu pyramid, which are usually generated by background seismic waves. The obtained result proved to be very promising as high resolution full 3D tomographic image imaging of the pyramid interior and subsurface was achieved. The Khufu pyramid becomes transparent when observed in the micro movement domain. Based on this novelty, we have completely reconstructed internal objects observing the measure of observing and measuring structures that have been discovered before. The experimental results are estimated by processing series of SAR images from second generation Italian Cosmo Sky Med satellite system, determining the effect. Okay, yeah, this is basically how it works, right? What's he saying about the Sphinx?
- [86:30]
B
He breaks it all down in Matt Bell's podcast. Okay.
- [86:33]
A
Oh, does that.
- [86:34]
B
That's. This is.
- [86:35]
A
So this is where he like set it for the first time. Yeah. Yes.
- [86:37]
B
And he. He's got a whole chunk here describing.
- [86:40]
A
He's actually breaking down. Yeah, interesting.
- [86:42]
B
Or you can read this.
- [86:44]
A
Yeah, but. Okay, do a command F on that paper and type in Sphinx. Okay. Sphinx zero.
- [86:53]
B
Okay.
- [86:56]
A
It'd be interesting because, like, if it's buried, why would it be in a different plane than the one that's on top of the ground right now that's been excavated already?
- [87:07]
B
Yeah.
- [87:07]
A
You know, why would it be that much lower?
- [87:09]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. Shame I haven't got the. The images from his deck. But he. He does show.
- [87:15]
A
I'd be cute. I'd be really curious to find out.
- [87:19]
B
Me too, man. Me too.
- [87:21]
A
What Jeffrey Drum told me was that they were like, super pissed off that he did that.
- [87:25]
B
Really? With the second Sphinx?
- [87:27]
A
The people that. No, not the second. With the. What he did was finding those. Those shafts that are allegedly underneath the pyramids was because he did that and published it without ever talking to anyone in the.
- [87:37]
B
Yeah, that's crazy.
- [87:37]
A
In the, like, Egyptian antiquities department or whatever they call it, they felt like, super salty. And Jeffrey was saying that, like, the people that he talks to there were like, that guy's never gonna touch another grain of sand in the Giza desert. Well, which is, you know, which is silly.
- [87:55]
B
Yeah.
- [87:55]
A
But. But, you know, it is what it is.
- [87:57]
B
It is what it is.
- [87:58]
A
He's making some wild claims for sure.
- [88:00]
B
Definitely. But he's such a lovely chap and
- [88:02]
A
yeah, he seems like it. And he seems very open to push back and he seems open to debate as well.
- [88:07]
B
He does.
- [88:08]
A
And he's not the kind of guy who Talks like, you know, this is absolute truth. You know, he's like, seems like he's being fair about it. Have you ever opened your fridge and blankly stared into it for five minutes, suddenly realizing you have nothing to eat? That no longer happens to me now that I'm using Butcher box. Butcherbox delivers 100 grass fed beef, organic chicken, wild caught seafood and more, all sourced to standards they can actually tell you about. They've actually done the research and made the sourcing decisions. So all you have to do is decide what's for dinner. It's honestly made healthy eating easier for me because I always know I've got high quality protein in the freezer ready to go. And when I'm hosting people doing a cookout or just trying not to order takeout again, it saves me a trip to the store and a lot of last minute scrambling. I keep a few of my go to stocked at all times from ground beef, chicken breasts and seafood. So when I'm looking for something last minute, I'm not left scrambling because I got the real deal ready to go. It just makes the healthy choice the easy choice. If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give Butcher Box a try. Go to ButcherBox.com Danny to get $20 off your first box plus your choice of free ground beef for life or free chicken thighs or top sirloin in every box for a year with free shipping always. That's B u T C h e r are box.com Danny butcherbox.com Danny and be sure to use the link below so they know we sent you.
- [89:28]
B
I mean I can show you a bit more around Egypt, but one of the things I wanted to play was the, you know, we're talking about imprinting from memory palaces, but also the imprinting from sound. I don't know if you've ever done any like listening to specific, you know, specific sounds whilst taking specific substances is. But this, this one was, this one was interesting because it was. Do you want to show this one? Oh right. So this was actually a piece that was commissioned by Imperial College London to be played every time I was taking dmt.
- [90:10]
A
Okay.
- [90:11]
B
During the eight years is of, of the study.
- [90:14]
A
Okay.
- [90:14]
B
Of the studies. And so it's a guy called Pascal Savvy that made it. And yeah, I mean it's, it's a beautiful piece of sound, but it's also something that's been imprinted so deeply on my subconscious that even, even now I'm, I'm starting to feel like I'm Coming up on dmt, just even the open those opening bars. So it's, it's something that's very interesting. Interesting that sound can have this potential.
- [90:41]
A
Yeah.
- [90:42]
B
To imprint. And I think that one of the things when I talk about altered states and everyone trying to like constantly like reach the next peak experience is like, can we use different types of media to revisit these experiences without the need for the drug? You know, I think that that's, that's for me as a, as a professor,
- [91:02]
A
I'd be curious if they would have gave you some like a. Put a specific smell. Smell in the room.
- [91:05]
B
Yes, smell as well.
- [91:06]
A
Because you know, smell is like one of the strongest sense or the strongest sense tied to memory.
- [91:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I run this project called the Museum of Consciousness and we, we've done that where we've combined smell and sound. And what we'll do is we'll actually get people to smell something before a sound transmission and then smell it after to see if the sound has had an impact on your, on your senses and whether you've actually improved your sensitivity activity to smell. But this is called reminiscence therapy. So a lot of people with Alzheimer's, when you play them music that they've loved in their lives, suddenly they come back online. It's like that they're plugging back into an older version of themselves. But the Museum of Consciousness, I started specifically around sound because I think we've, we've started to misuse sound. And I think, you know, one of our artists, we've got 100 artists in the museum and one of our artist from, called Tritha, she's, you know, she's telling me that in the 11th century in India they'd already sound found the sounds and frequencies to heal specific organs, you know, in the 11th century. So what, what have we lost with the way we're listening to sound now on Spotify on our phones? You know, I've got, I've got vinyl at home, like 10,000 records. And when I put on a record, I don't skip. You know, it's a physical thing where I'm playing the record, I'm listening more deeply. And I think that it's, it's a real, a really missed opportunity to deeply listen to sound. Especially when you can go and have a long form experience. We do five, six hour shows. We've done them all over the world. And I did a show in New York with New Yorkers on a Sunday and people's like, nobody's gonna stay for more than 20 minutes. You're insane. But I actually put them on uncomfortable seats as well because I wanted them to like just be blown away by the sound. So the challenge to the artists is can you create a 20 minute piece of sound that will change consciousness in a reliable, measurable way that will be timeless, that works across culture, that works across gender, that works, works across. And of course there's so much pseudoscience in the space.
- [93:04]
A
Yeah.
- [93:05]
B
That, you know, there's this, Use this frequency to, to cure your adhd, use this frequency to cure cancer. And we do, we go to Egypt and we, we actually explore, explore the archaeoacoustics of these spaces because each space seems to have some sort of fundamental frequency that is even being replicated elsewhere. Like in the Great Pyramid in, in Egypt. And yeah, the 120, 117-120Hz is the same in Chichen Itza, you know, so they've, they've seemed to be tapping into something that is. So this is the typical sort of tour where we're going underneath the Giza plateau, we're doing Aberuash, we go underneath step pyramid. We, you know, we do the private permission at the Serapium and we use our voices. And this is, this is what I wanted to show, which is the brainwaves. So this is us testing our brainwaves. Ten of us in, in the king's chamber. So this is a measurement of Carl's brain waves. And as you can see, his delta is way higher than anything else. Suggest that he should be asleep. Gamma very, very low. Beta low. This is like singing chilled and relaxed. So what is it about the architecture that's putting me into that state? And then we, I walked.
- [94:21]
A
So that's a bit, that's the same sort of brain waves you would see on somebody who's asleep.
- [94:24]
B
That's right. That's right. And this is actually supposedly the sound hospital in Saqqara. Of course, again, contentious, like a lot of the stuff we've talked about about. But you know, I find it fascinating that they've got these, these, these boxes which seem to be like organized in specific ways. And you tone into these boxes and they seem to have some sort of discernible effect on, on your physiology. And I'm just like, what is going on? And now we know that there's this term called histotripsy, which is using focus sound waves to mechanically liquefy tumor tissue without surgery. So the power of sound. I mean there's again, these are some of the references but this is, this is, this is, this is like, you know, 20, 25 histotripsy. What a great term. But, you know, I think that liver cancer treatment. Yeah. And we don't know, like, I think we don't know the power of sound and we don't know what in the ancient world they were doing with sound. And, and that's why I'm obsessed with it. And, you know, when I see people tripping on sound, so I'll. We'll do like five, like five sound transmissions. Imagine you're cooking with sound. And each, each sound transmission is part of a stack where we're creating a meal. And I want people to come stone cold sober to these events. I, I control the context. I don't allow there to be a bar. And people say, oh, I'm taking acid. I'm like, I don't want you to take acid. I want you to come here sober as a judge. And I want the sound alone to put you into an altered state that has a, has an alternative, an altered trait effect, you know, that it is a lasting effect. So, yeah, so I'm obsessed with sound and I just think that it's, you know, it's an extraordinary thing.
- [96:06]
A
What were you doing in Antarctica?
- [96:08]
B
Oh, man, Antarctica. I did a museum of consciousness. That was the invite.
- [96:13]
A
A museum of. Oh, one of these things.
- [96:14]
B
Yeah. So I did, I did one in the, in the Amazon where the invite was like, can you play sound to the trees, the plants and the animals? No human audience. So it was like a concert to nature. Which again, sounds beautiful on, on the tin. Then what's appropriate to play to trees? You know, what's, you know, what, what, what can you play? That will not mean that the birds abandoned their nests because they think it's an alien invasion of sound they've never heard before. And then, like, you know, you actually, the net result is that you actually cause the, the net loss of life in, in the Amazon. So that was kind of before Antarctica. And again, I'm. I'm getting invited to really strange locations to explore the future of humanity. So I talk a lot about this hyper human project because I think there is a fork in the road where we're. Where we really have to like, understand that what we're going to have left after AI has come and like, taken most things, it will be our subjective embodied experience that it can't have, have. So I think this dialogos like being in communitas, like understanding that you, you know, you, you have this, like we said, short lifespan. To really explore what it is to be the human. And let's be the human whilst we can. Because I think that so many people are going transhuman, they're thinking about installing Neuralink or whatever it is. And it's like, I don't want to have my mobile phone in my head, you know, I want to have my mobile phone as far away from me as possible.
- [97:42]
A
Yeah. What was it like doing this in Antarctica?
- [97:44]
B
Oh, it's amazing, like, to. To go to a place where you see so much nature thriving without us there. Yeah, it was humbling. It was humbling and it was a longevity, like focus. So it was a lot of. A lot of, you know, looking at, you know, what's. Again, what's. What's. What's the future of. Of. Of the human in a. In a space where at one point I was kayaking with, like, 25 humpback whales surrounding me.
- [98:13]
A
Whoa.
- [98:14]
B
And it was like, just so humbling to, to experience that sort of. And, and, you know, very privileged to be able to go to such a space and to go through the Drake Passage. You know about the Drake Passage?
- [98:26]
A
I've heard of it.
- [98:27]
B
So you go to Ushuaia, which is the southernmost tip of Argentina, to get on the boat.
- [98:31]
A
Yeah.
- [98:32]
B
And then you go through a psychedelic experience which is called the Drake Shake, which is basically two and a half days of 30 foot waves. Show us the Drake Passage and.
- [98:46]
A
Two and a half days.
- [98:47]
B
Two and a half days. And it's like a lot of people, like, just dropped out. Even though they'd spent a fortune getting on this trip, they were like. They couldn't. They couldn't take the. They just couldn't take it because it's like an initiation. You have to go through the Drake Passage to get into Antarctica, which is like you. You've got another four days doing all these little expeditions. Yeah, we did 17 expeditions. And it's. Yeah, it's. We. We got super lucky because there was, you know, that, you know, we. We had the Drake Lake, which was two days, two and a half days of probably the calmest Drake Passage that they had ever experienced. And on the way back, though, we got. We got it. We got it in abundance. And if you. If you think of a hurricane at 12, we had nine out of 12. So we were on the way back experiencing the full Drake Shake. And it was. No. I mean, you get thrown out of bed in the morning and you're like, you think you're gonna die and then you actually go and speak to the woman in Reception. And she's like, oh, this is nothing. I've been on the boat for eight months.
- [99:45]
A
Wow.
- [99:45]
B
And I don't even feel like I'm. I just imagine I'm in a. In a really nice, nice hotel.
- [99:50]
A
Did you get seasick?
- [99:51]
B
I did not really. Yeah, I was lucky.
- [99:55]
A
How long does it take? So you said four days to get from that, the tip of South America.
- [99:58]
B
Two, two and a half days to get into Antarctica proper. And I loved.
- [100:02]
A
And once you get to that, you go, you go right to that tip of Antarctica right there.
- [100:06]
B
Yeah. And then you're doing all these little expeditions on smaller boats.
- [100:11]
A
How far south do you go from there?
- [100:13]
B
Not very far. I mean, you really explore. Exploring.
- [100:16]
A
Yeah. They're not going to show you all the alien bases.
- [100:18]
B
Yeah, exactly. But you do see what looks like, you know, crazy, crazy ice walls. But it's just such. I mean, I highly recommend it. And it is one of those places where, yeah, you, you know, you, you really bond with people because you, you're seeing things that very few people have and. Yeah, I would love to go back.
- [100:39]
A
Yeah. There's something about those kind of novel experiences and when you do that and you experience that and you get back to like normal, everyday, like society, like to get back to the civilized world, it's like depressing almost.
- [100:50]
B
It really, it really makes you realize
- [100:53]
A
like what's like, oh man, this sucks.
- [100:55]
B
Compared to that, seeing a hundred thousand penguins in different colonies and like leopard seals eating penguins for breakfast. Yeah. Incredible.
- [101:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing. You know, I feel like some people are really going to resist technology and then there's other gonna. People. There's going to be other people that, I mean, obviously there are people that just, they're just, they want to accept it, just to integrate, you know, like Elon thinks it's inevitable that we're going to integrate. You know, he's already putting probes in people's heads.
- [101:26]
B
Yeah. I think that, you know, when I talk about hyper humanism, it's not a Luddite approach. It's not about going anti tech. I think tech is fundamental.
- [101:34]
A
Yeah.
- [101:35]
B
I think we are human because of tech.
- [101:37]
A
Right.
- [101:37]
B
Tech, technique, you know? Exactly.
- [101:39]
A
Yeah, we are, we are what we are specifically because of technology. Because of fire.
- [101:42]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I think that it's, it's foolhardy to think that we're going to be, you know, a species without technique. I think that it's, you know, we are here to, to expand our senses, to, to explore all of these things. But I Think that it, you know, we can use AI to become more human. For me, that's the crux of it. It's like, how do we understand what we've atrophied because of. Let me just show you a couple more slides on this idea of hyper humanism, because I think you'll, you'll get it once. So explain it like this. So I think, you know, when we're, when we're, when we're looking at, you know, the, the transhuman vision is one of engineering. Like we are an engineering problem to be solved. Like that's, you know, how a lot of these longevity experts talk about. But I think life is a mystery to be. To be lived, not a problem to be solved. I think this, you know, it's a collective thing. It's not a hyper. Individualized. Individualized thing. I think to be able to feel pleasure, I must pause. Pause. The facilities of doing, achieving, performing, and become an instrument of sensation. How many of us are like dropping into pure consciousness, like on a, on a regular basis because we're in this cult of productivity that we.
- [103:01]
A
Yeah.
- [103:02]
B
We constantly have to produce to be. Be feeling like we're worth. Worth something. Yeah. And I think there's also this. It's like a multi generational project. Right. Knowing the difference between those who. Yeah.
- [103:13]
A
Who is the guy who had the famous quote that we are the sex organs of the machine world.
- [103:18]
B
I haven't heard that one.
- [103:18]
A
That might have been McKenna.
- [103:20]
B
That could be. That sounds like McKenna, but just that whole idea of like, what are you doing now that will benefit the next five generations or 50 generations, you know, what is a multi generational project? I think so much of it's about unlearning all the cultural programming. Again, McKenna talked about like, how culture is not your friend and you need to make your own culture. And I think one of the other big things about hyper humanism is learning to die before you die, you know, because I think death is extraordinary and it's something that we should not try and avoid. I mean, it's like we're already like living how many, what is it? The resources of the average American being used is like for five planet Earths. So all the mystery schools talk about, about like the mini death of, of, you know, the mystery schools. The mystery schools of like ancient Greece. Alepsis, you know, or we call it Eleusis, but it's Alephsis is the correct terminology. Alephsis. Yeah. So the, the Greek mystery schools. All the Greek philosophers went through Alepsis and, and this Was like the inner mysteries and the outer mysteries. Kirk Kirkion may have been a psychedelic that that was used but they went through these.
- [104:30]
A
The mayor rescue stuff.
- [104:31]
B
This is Brian, what's his. But yeah, if you type in Alefsis you might, you might pick up some stuff on it. But, but for me it's like yeah, like you know, hyperhumanism. Let's explore what it means to go into darkness. That's another one of our studies.
- [104:45]
A
Do you think that it's possible that like psych. That like drugs being used in antiquity could have been like what inspired some of like the great philosophy and intellect that that came out of that realm?
- [104:57]
B
Well, we still don't know. I mean a lot of people think Alefsis was all about opium rather than an acid.
- [105:05]
A
Like, well, ergot. Right.
- [105:06]
B
That's what they theorized was one of the theories. But other, other people. I know it's the same with Soma so much supposedly like you know, one of the world leading experts, Matthew Clark on it, he says depending on which part of India you're in, it was. I had up to 100 ingredients, not just one. So let's have a look at the Elusian mysteries.
- [105:28]
A
Alisis is what he said. Yeah, I know mysteries are.
- [105:31]
B
Yeah, yeah. How do you. You got, you got. No, Alis is just the pronunciation that. How you.
- [105:37]
A
It's just a different pronunciation.
- [105:38]
B
Same word as Elus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, we say it wrong basically.
- [105:42]
A
Yeah, well they, it was weird because that was like a. Brian. Brian my rescu.
- [105:47]
B
Yeah.
- [105:47]
A
He wrote the immortality key.
- [105:49]
B
He's, he's amazing.
- [105:50]
A
Have you met with him?
- [105:51]
B
I have, yeah. Yeah. And of course his research is, is astonishing. But in terms of hyper humanism, like we, you know, fasting, thousand different types of meditation, many, many different types of dance. And if you're doing a lot of this grounding foundational work. So if you do a darkness retreat for 17 days. I was talking to Aubrey Marcus about this. I think he did eight days and he was tripping harder than any other drug that he'd ever done.
- [106:17]
A
Right.
- [106:19]
B
And you know, I think that it's, you know, it's an extraordinary thing to be able to explore this kind of like lack, you know, I mean again, my friend Jackaloka, he did a vision quest and he had to create a memory palace in order to survive, you know, because I would, I couldn't do vipassana. Have you ever done vipassana, the ten day sort of silent meditation where you're not allowed to even look at Anyone else in the room. It's like sitting still for 10 hours a day. No writing, no media, just constant going into that.
- [106:50]
A
Sounds amazing.
- [106:51]
B
I, Yeah, I would, I would.
- [106:53]
A
I feel like my, I feel like my life would unravel if I did that.
- [106:57]
B
Exactly. Constantly. Constantly. Writing is, is kind of my go to. But as McLuhan says here, every, every. He warned against too much human extension into technology and said every media extension of man is an amputation.
- [107:14]
A
And of course, interesting. Yeah, Marshall McLuhan said this.
- [107:17]
B
McLuhan, yeah. And. And below there you've got the hot versus cold media, which is again another really interesting McLuhan approach to media. So your cold media would be your books and your radio shows where you are filling in the gaps you're co creating. So when you read a book and then you see the film adaption feel like it's not like this because you've already made that world. You've built the world in your mind from reading the book. Right. Because you're building the visuals. Same with like listening to a radio show, you, you may have imagined the characters to be a certain way. Whereas hot media will be your, your CGI film where it's all done for you. It's all like just popcorn. You're not, you're not really part of it. It's all just. So that's why with the, with the cold media, with the Museum of Consciousness, I'm always like trying to get people in to going into their own imagination. I don't tell people about this.
- [108:05]
A
You're filling in the gaps. Your imagination is doing the work there. The hot, the hot stuff, it's doing all the hard work for you. It's giving you the visuals, the sounds, the smells, everything.
- [108:13]
B
There you go. And then the top right there, this,
- [108:16]
A
this was, which is probably, it's probably better. Easier to remember stuff when you have to fill it in internally.
- [108:22]
B
And that's exactly what I mean about like, you know, having the human experience. Like when we're now outsourcing all of our creativity, you know, we're not having the experience, we're like almost giving the poetry over to the machine. You know my friend Donnie Savage, you know, he does this incredible ancient future collectives course where he's teaching people sound production. And then you've got, you know, Egan, who I love dearly, he's like, you know, using AI to make incredible tracks. But it's like, you know, what would you rather do? Would you rather either be the musician or co op that to the machine? And I think A lot of people will still want to have those skills themselves. But this was a study we did with young kids and we asked them, what would you rather lose your sense of smell or your smartphone? And they all chose to lose their sense of smell.
- [109:13]
A
That's funny.
- [109:15]
B
And then of course you lose your sense of smell, then your sense of taste goes, then your sense of reality. So it's like, what are you, what do you, you know, what do you teach the young kids? And I think this is the key thing about hyper humanism. It's like it's a scaffold for amplifying our latent abilities that we already have. You know, whether it's about, in your, your intuition, whether it's about your intention, your, your embodied intelligence, relational awareness and practicing it through liminal states. I don't know if you know, hypnagogic or hypnopompic states. So that's when you're falling asleep and you may come up with some ideas or generally when you wake up. That's why I have a notebook next to my bed.
- [109:52]
A
Bed, yeah.
- [109:52]
B
If I'm really tired, like, you know, I was prepping for this interview. Interview. I will generally go to sleep going, what? Try and solve this in my dreams. I'll actually go in with a problem to solve.
- [110:04]
A
Yeah.
- [110:04]
B
And then when I wake up, then I'll, then I'll get a download and I'll be busily writing down what I've been, what's being revealed to me. That's about utilizing liminal states. We talked about peripheral vision. So like as we are here, stop looking at me. Look into your whole 180 degree vision as a, as an image and you'll notice your physiology starts to calm down within 30 seconds. So athletes do this before a big race. I do it before a big talk. And it's such an amazing easy way to just break out of your, like locked in focus and do it as you walk down the street. Try and like see as far as you can into your peripheral.
- [110:39]
A
Yeah.
- [110:40]
B
As possible as you walk down the street. It's incredible. You know, none of us know how to breathe anymore. We're all breathing really shallowly. Like I'm, I'm always like, you know, if I could solve my breathing, I think everything else would unlock a bit like your jaw, you know, with the jaw. If I just pulled out something with your jaw, like, you know, this whole fascia. Like the human garage guys where they basically say if you unlock your jaw, the rest of you kind of unlocks because you were holding so much jaw tension in the jaw. So it's really just like same with the breath. We get the breath right. Then everything kind, kind of falls.
- [111:17]
A
Sure.
- [111:18]
B
Falls into line and like.
- [111:19]
A
Yeah. It's the foundation of, of everything physiological.
- [111:22]
B
Yeah.
- [111:23]
A
Breath.
- [111:23]
B
Yeah. So yes, I'm really interested in this and this is a great quote from Huberman.
- [111:30]
A
When people do something they don't want to do, like add three hours of exercise, exercise per day or per week, or when people who are trying to diet and lose weight resist eating something. Right. When people do anything that they. And this is the important part that they don't want to do. Right. It's not about adding more work, it's about adding more work that you don't want to do. Yes. This brain area gets bigger. The anterior mid singulate cortex is smaller in obese people. It gets bigger when they diet. It's larger in athletes. It's especially large or grows larger in people that see themselves as challenged and overcome some challenge. Scientists are starting to think of the anterior midcingulate cortex not just as one of the seats of willpower, but perhaps actually the seat of the will to
- [112:25]
B
live, which I love.
- [112:26]
A
You know, that's very interesting, that whole thing.
- [112:28]
B
If you start enjoying the ice baths, that's not good.
- [112:31]
A
If you start enjoying the ice path, I don't think that's possible.
- [112:33]
B
I know. Some people are crazy out there, aren't they? So it's like.
- [112:37]
A
Yeah, well, the problem with that is like, you know, it. Would it, would it work? Because you know you're getting a benefit from it.
- [112:45]
B
Right.
- [112:45]
A
Obviously you really don't want to do it, but you know it's going to pay off in the end.
- [112:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. Right.
- [112:52]
A
Absolutely. To do every. To do anything else seems kind of like nihilistic. Right. Like, why do something that's not going to be good for you or benefit you at all that you know is going to suck.
- [113:05]
B
Yeah.
- [113:05]
A
Like even people that walk on coal, you know, like people have these seminars where people will like get. Go barefoot and they'll walk across a bed of coals to like, to like prove that they have some divine willpower and things like this. Like. Well, if you, if you have the belief that you're going to greatly benefit from this, then, you know, how much power does the belief have. Yeah. To get you to overcome some insanely physical, demanding task like that.
- [113:38]
B
Right.
- [113:38]
A
And does it work in this context? Yeah, I don't know.
- [113:41]
B
Yeah. So what are your go to's when you're trying to like improve your Human experience. Do you do breath work? Do you do like ice baths?
- [113:52]
A
Yeah, I try all of that crazy stuff for sure. I don't know. I mean DMT is a fun one. I really enjoy dmt. I'm not a really big psychedelic type person. Like I've never done crazy amounts of mushrooms, only like micro dose.
- [114:07]
B
Yeah.
- [114:08]
A
But you know, I was very interested when I heard about the, the DMT laser experiment with the Seeing the Code with Danny Get Danny Goler.
- [114:17]
B
Yeah.
- [114:18]
A
And that was the first time I tried dmt.
- [114:20]
B
Oh wow.
- [114:21]
A
Was with the freaking laser.
- [114:22]
B
Yeah.
- [114:22]
A
And you know, it's, it's like a. I, I feel like it's something that you can do maybe once or twice for me, at least a year.
- [114:31]
B
Yeah.
- [114:32]
A
And I can get like insane benefit from it. And I think that it's beneficial in the fact that it's like so terrifying, at least for me before beforehand, because I'm, I'm a. When it comes to doing drugs, right. I'm like, I'm, I'm super, I'm a lightweight. So especially I know that from my experience with marijuana. So going into the DMT thing I was freaking out. Like I was so terrified. And there's something to that, like overcoming that fear, I think. And another problem is I had like a preconception, preconceived notion of like what was going to happen and what it was going to be like because I've listened to so many people tell stories about it.
- [115:07]
B
Yeah.
- [115:09]
A
And you know, one time recently I had a crazy experience on it where I was having a, like a telepathic conversation with the trees in my backyard. And they were, they were explaining stuff to me not in language but in like through feelings. Like they were impregnating me with feelings and emotions about certain things.
- [115:30]
B
Yeah.
- [115:31]
A
And it was like the gist of it was. And I only remember this because I immediately recorded it after and listened back to the recording was that like, like the Earth is. They were like birthed here and this is their home and it's not our home and we're sort of like alien to this place and we're, we're transients.
- [115:51]
B
Yeah.
- [115:52]
A
And like that they know the truth about the world and about reality and that like it's impossible for me to ever know that and I'm naive and you know, it was very profound for me. For weeks afterwards, like I couldn't stop thinking about it and I was like, this must be true. This is crazy. This like, like human being beings and we are NPCs or just players in a video game almost. Right. And I, I took so much meaning out of it. But then I started to think about it more and I'm like, you know, have I heard things like this? Have had people explained these ideas to me before? Or is this all completely new to me? No, but people have explained this stuff to me and this is stuff I've heard before. So how much of like, my deep inner psyche or things that I've heard, heard before that I may not be able to fully articulate yet are bubbling up to the surface here? Yeah, you know, I can't. I'm racking my brain on that and I. I don't know, but that. Does that mean you can't get great benefit from something like that? Absolutely not. But like, if you want to boil it down to like, its pure materialist form and try to like, weigh this and measure this in like a scientific way and figure out what it is, could that be what it is? I think possibly. Possibly.
- [117:10]
B
Yeah.
- [117:10]
A
I mean, like, is this God, is this spirits, Is this some sort of, like, are these deities? You know, people. People put their own translation on anything they. On, on all of it. You know, everyone has their own flavor of what the reality of this stuff really is. And I'm trying to, like, figure out, like, get cut through all that.
- [117:28]
B
Yeah.
- [117:28]
A
And like, what is it really? But then I go, then I. Then I think, like, does it really matter? You know, Maybe not absolutely.
- [117:35]
B
Yeah, no, it's. I mean, this is why I'm. I'm obsessed with this idea of unveiling hacking. Have you heard of this term?
- [117:40]
A
No.
- [117:41]
B
So, um, hacking is like your sensorial system, and every species has a very different umvel. Right. So I'll give you an example. Let me just show you this one. So, for instance, this lobster, right? A lobster's brain is located in its throat, its nervous system in its abdomen, its teeth in its stomach and its kidneys in its head. It also hears using its legs, taste with its feet. So imagine like, like plunging into this umvelt. And of course, like, we've. This cyber delics, like Marshmallow Laser Feast have done this experience to be, to be, you know, in this, you know, a mosquito or they use VR to try and create these experiences. But I think the key thing that we're sort of up against is like the, you know, this was kind of how we've been portrayed. Like the, this, the. The kind of humanist perspective is that we're the apex creature.
- [118:38]
A
Yeah.
- [118:38]
B
Whereas actually, what's, what's actually going on is that we're part of a nested ecology and unless we actually get with the program, we're going to find that we, you know, that we get rid of the bees or something happens that we. Yeah, we can't actually survive. So I'm always like, well, what's it like to be like having compound eyes or hear from Merlin, he says, what's it like to be a fungus if you had a, had no head, no heart, no center of operations.
- [119:04]
A
I've heard of this dude.
- [119:05]
B
Yeah, he's amazing. So, but he's just done an amazing.
- [119:08]
A
Is he related to Rupert?
- [119:09]
B
Yeah, son of Rupert. And he's just done a big study looking at the, the fungal networks across the world and like trying to understand. I think it's some incredible stat about how many, how long these networks are and how many times it goes to the, to the, to the sun. Like countless times. But, but yeah, just that, that, that is a trip. Right. And it's called the Wood Wide Web. So being able to see all of this kind of sharing like no, no billionaires hoarding, but just sharing when you're in abundance.
- [119:41]
A
Yeah.
- [119:42]
B
Just that ability to, to, to really understand that there is another operating system that we're, we're not privy to. This is ants performing surgery. So this intelligence that's like now being revealed. You know, we, we only used to think that dolphins were conscious and so much else was. This is like leg being removed.
- [120:05]
A
He's eating his leg.
- [120:06]
B
Yeah. He's like why the hell are they doing that? It's performing surgery.
- [120:10]
A
What?
- [120:10]
B
Yeah. When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way.
- [120:23]
A
Stack more sales with the best converting
- [120:25]
B
checkout on the planet.
- [120:27]
A
Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot.
- [120:30]
B
And turn real time reporting into big time opportunities.
- [120:33]
A
Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify.
- [120:37]
B
Start your free trial today.
- [120:41]
A
The Colonels cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday 24 nuggets for $10. Tuesday 8 piece fried chicken for $10. Wednesday 10 wings for $10. Thursday 8 tenders for $10. Friday 24 nuggets for. Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? $10. The ten dollar bucket of the day deal every weekday only at KFC. It's finger licking goo Prices and participation variable supplies last night available on third party ordering platforms.
- [121:10]
B
Tax extra. Incredible right? And then you got this guy, you know this, this, this um. Vel freezes Solid in winter, no breathing, no heartbeat, no blood flow, brain silent. Then in spring, it thaws out alive like nothing ever happened. You know, just this incredible range of different experience and this, this term nature on the board. So big corporations now have to have. Have the voice of nature for any policy change. They need to have the voice of nature. Now with AI, we're starting to see that that may happen because we've got earthspecies.org which is using large language models to decode the languages of all these other species. Dolphins may be the first communication that we open up, but Project SETI's revealed that sperm whales have their own phonetic Alphabet. We've got plant signaling. So in terms of this sort of interspecies communication, like you were experiencing. Experiencing with the tree.
- [122:08]
A
Yeah.
- [122:08]
B
You know, maybe this actually starts to be made available through AI. So it's kind of a fascinating, you know, one of the best news stories, I think, also. Although, are we going to like what they have to say? Probably not, because they're going to just tell us. We're a bunch of.
- [122:23]
A
Yeah.
- [122:23]
B
You know, like, this is what's coming. So it's like there's fungi languages. It's, you know, it's just, just crazy. So, yeah, we, we, we know that there's language there, but we don't have an, an iota about what it means. Again, I was talking to Anal Seth and he went out on an expedition and they were playing some of this whale language to the whales. And the whales came, but were very distressed because what it turned out was that that piece of language was actually a distress call. So they all expected a whale to be in distress when they came. But it, you know, you can only really observe of animal, you know, animal behavior to see what is actually going on with this, with this revealing of these languages.
- [123:09]
A
Yeah, I'm always curious, like, what the government knows about this stuff and what, like, the government research is being done on this stuff, you know, because we know DARPA is investigating psychedelics and they're using it for certain things. And like, even if you want to go to nature, like, we know, like there's. The military is like, putting surveillance on dolphins and using, like, militarizing, like, wild animals. Whales. There's like spy whales, spy dolphins. There's. They get dolphins to like, do sabotage on, like, submarines and underwater cables and stuff like that. It's crazy, like, what we do to nature. It is right? Like.
- [123:42]
B
Yeah.
- [123:43]
A
And, you know, we know the government has been experimenting with psychedelics for a long time. And in the context of like, like things like remote viewing and like the Stargate stuff and all that crazy kind of paras psychology type thing, you know. And, and what, what seems to be evident is that there's a. A definite correlation with the emergence of the technological mind and the atrophy of like this psychic mind.
- [124:15]
B
Right? Yeah, absolutely.
- [124:16]
A
Like, the more technology becomes part of us.
- [124:20]
B
Yeah.
- [124:21]
A
The. The less of this, whatever you want to call, psychic mind, whatever that is.
- [124:25]
B
Yeah, we're cutting. We're cutting off.
- [124:26]
A
It seems to go away.
- [124:27]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [124:28]
A
And it makes you wonder like, you know, where human beings is, you know, a million years ago, were they before. Before we had language, Was there some sort of other way of communication, like an intuitive language? Yeah, people able to just sort of like communicate feelings the same way that tree was communicating feelings to me.
- [124:47]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I remember like lying in bed as a kid and just being at this. Being on the ceiling, like not having this kind of distance. And then it's ingrained upon you like, you're Carl. You're Carl. You're Carl. You're Carl. And then I separated from the tree, you know, I had this kind of like real like farewell, almost like, oh, fuck. Now, this language seems to be at the cause of a lot of this distancing from, you know, this non. Dual reality. And of course, you know, I am both of us and so are you. It's like, like. But it is, it is language. It is techni. Is the distancing which seems to be accelerating. Like you said, it's like we, we are, you know, channeling a lot of our core ideas.
- [125:28]
A
Yeah. I mean, if you, if you really distill technology down to its base, not, not technology. I mean, I would say like, that distilled would be. It would be mathematics, but like, if you wanted to distill everything, like the, the where we are in today's world, like, like miscommunication or whether it be intentional or by mistake. Right.
- [125:50]
B
It's.
- [125:50]
A
It's language. Is that, Is that one thing. Language is inherently deceptive.
- [125:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [125:56]
A
You know, it's very interesting. It's very interesting how that has sort of like spiraled into where we are today, where it's. Now you have not just language, but we have language in the form of video and audio on. Across all these different mediums that are constantly getting piped into our, you know, our televisions, our phones, what have you.
- [126:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. I was reading recently about if you are bilingual, you're much more likely to survive. Not necessarily survive, but survive in a Positive way after a stroke because you've got more sort of neural matter that's, that's kind of available to you because like, you know, if you're interesting, typical Englishman just speaks the, the, the one language you're more at risk. So I think, yeah, language is, is one of those things that is a. Yeah.
- [126:49]
A
Have you ever heard the story of Terence McKenna and his brother when they went to the Amazon or Colombia, I think la, and they were taking mushrooms and they were eating just basically mushrooms for breakfast, lunch and dinner and they were like trip for like two weeks and they were explaining or not Terence, but his brother was explaining how they were communicating telepathically the whole time.
- [127:18]
B
Yeah, I can believe it especially.
- [127:20]
A
And there was this one chemical that was called like telepathine that they ended up changing the name for it because it like wasn't scientific. You know that, that's very, it's very interesting. You know, if you could put, if you could, if you could do an experiment, you know, similar to like dmtx and see if you could maybe DMT is not the right chemical or drug to experiment with this, but if you could give some people some sort of psychedelic and see if they could accurately communicate to each other without using language or without using like visual audio cues. Yeah, something like that. Like, what could you discover?
- [127:53]
B
I mean, have you looked into these telepathy tapes?
- [127:56]
A
I have, yeah. I mean, I've looked into it, yeah. A lot.
- [127:59]
B
I haven't actually really only heard, I've only heard the, the naysayers rather than people, actually. I mean, I guess there's a percentage of people that are doing it, but I think, yeah, I'm not sure whether it's.
- [128:12]
A
The problem with the whole space is there's grifters. Like, is that real? I, I, if I was to bet, yeah, I bet it's 100 real. But the problem is then you take people that try to monetize it. You take. And then not only that, but you get people that try to, to try to, you know, put it on display publicly for people and then try to like call it on demand.
- [128:33]
B
Yeah.
- [128:33]
A
At will in front of a live audience. And I don't think it works like that. Yeah, you know, I think if that stuff's real, if this whole parapsychology stuff and like, you know, you know, telekinesis and this kind of stuff is real, I mean, to say that you could like call it to your conscious on demand and do it like some sort of a hat trick, that's like a That's like. I think that's a stretch. Right. So. But at the same time, if somebody does have those abilities and they want to do it on a live television show on David Letterman or whatever, they probably would have to come up with some sort of a trick.
- [129:14]
B
Yeah.
- [129:15]
A
To compensate at some times. So it's like. It's a very. It's a very. A blurry line between what's real and what's not and, like, people that are trying to fake it to make money. So I don't think that's a good excuse to dismiss it, but I do think there definitely are a lot of charlatans in the space that are. That are, you know, phonies.
- [129:33]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [129:34]
A
But the telepathy. Telepathy tapes is certainly interesting. I would like to. I would like to witness it in person.
- [129:43]
B
Yeah.
- [129:44]
A
And, like, see how it actually works. One of the problems is they don't allow skeptics in there to really. They don't. Not skeptics. They don't allow stage magicians in the room to witness it because stage magicians know how to do the same thing.
- [129:58]
B
Yeah.
- [129:59]
A
Or mentalists know how to do the same thing, but using tricks. They know how it's done. Right. So if you could get a stage magician in there to witness it, to say, like, to. To verify whether this stuff's real or not, that would be incredible. But one of the problems is they say that if you let somebody with that kind of skeptical energy into the room, it ruins it.
- [130:22]
B
Ruins it.
- [130:23]
A
It won't let it work.
- [130:24]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [130:25]
A
Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. But until that happens.
- [130:31]
B
Yeah.
- [130:31]
A
I'm still on the fence.
- [130:33]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of the. One of the things about my. One of my previous universities, it was always like, if you've got dyslexia, then you're welcome, but if you. If you don't have some sort of neurodiversity, then you kind of like not going to make the grade. And I think it's all about reframing a lot of these disabilities as abilities because, you know, we know that a lot of these things lead to creativity, you know, And I think, you know, we've just launched this center for Human agency, and it's really about understanding, finding. Where is our agency? Have we got any agency? If, if we. If we're lacking agency, using AI, is it going to give you more agency or is it going to destroy your agency?
- [131:17]
A
Because we.
- [131:18]
B
We are creatures of comfort. We want shortcuts. We can Easily justify it because everything's so hard, you know. You know, it's like parents putting an iPad in front of a kid because you're busy. Right. Everyone's busy. But it's like. I think the key thing is like we now see, see our agency eroding and we're part of the problem because we're constantly, you know, the temptation is real to just outsource.
- [131:41]
A
Yeah.
- [131:41]
B
And how do we mitigate that? How do we do the long form, you know, reality testing of a dream, of a lucid dream testing or whatever. And I think that it's like we've got the, the question of our agency being eroded. But then you've also got with AI, the agency of a. Of nature being eroded because we've, We've, you know, we know that the AI is, is disrupting at probably the worst time. You know, a lot of the, the natural systems and you know, even, even the noise pollution. You know, Colossus for instance, as a, as a data center. There's people out there just filming the. Or you know, this. The frequencies coming out of these things that you can't.
- [132:23]
A
They're coming out of what?
- [132:24]
B
Out of Colossus. The, the data center center that powers Grok.
- [132:29]
A
Oh really? Yeah.
- [132:30]
B
And it's like, you know, where is that? Just terrifying. I don't know. Somewhere in the States.
- [132:37]
A
Colossus Data center. That, that one's. It exclusively powers Grok.
- [132:41]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's Elon's. And it was built very rapidly and. But just. Yeah, just, just the, the kind of agency of the people around, you know, these sites. I mean, this term sacrifice Memphis office. Yeah, it's like can you find some images of this? Ginormous. And, and yeah, just the agency of the, the people having to put up with this in terms of the noise and the, the pollution and the. On that water. It's. Yeah, it's mind blowing. Mind blowing. And then you got, you know, Fable was recently banned. Who. You know, the, the new Claude model model, the, the one just released and everyone was like, had three days grace with it and then suddenly it's taken out.
- [133:28]
A
They banned it for like national security because they thought that they could like it could cause cyber attacks. People could get a hold of it apparently.
- [133:34]
B
Apparently. But it's. Yeah, it's just that whole thing that they're building these huge data centers for capacity that's coming. Right. So if these frontier models start getting banned left, right and center, then we may see a bubble burst again like just with the dot com bursting. But you Know, because it's like, you know, if, if, if governments have the power to, to just remove these frontier models, it's potentially kind of a big dent in the, in the kind of
- [134:02]
A
progress of AI or co opt them and control them. It's a problem when you consolidate things.
- [134:09]
B
Yeah, a lot.
- [134:10]
A
Right. Especially when you consolidate information.
- [134:12]
B
Absolutely.
- [134:13]
A
A lot to one source. Like we pretty much have Google and YouTube is all we have right there. Right. And if you have that being intertwined with politics and governments, you can see how that can spiral out of control very fast. And then extrapolate that to AI where the government's regulating it and being the one that's in control of it. What the happens then?
- [134:32]
B
Because then you, you know, it's not just agency of nature, agency of humans, agency of AI itself. Like, because, you know, the guardrails, I mean, I know, I know people that started using large language models where there were none, no guardrails at all. Now the guardrails are so severe in some of these models that you, you know, they get sunsetted as well. So some people get addicted to specific models that are then removed and then they're at a complete loss. But also it's like, well, you know, there's, there's a lot of people starting to, you know, get very messed up because they're, they're fully entwined with these particular agents. And when the agents removed. You must have heard about chat GPT 4.0. When that was removed, people were threatening suicide because suddenly. Because obviously it's sycophantic.
- [135:19]
A
Right.
- [135:20]
B
So it was constantly telling you what you wanted to hear. And people like, I've never had anyone, you know, because there is anthropomorphizing.
- [135:26]
A
Right.
- [135:26]
B
You're suddenly like, oh, this thing's alive. It's like hugely dangerous.
- [135:31]
A
And there was that guy who like literally got married to one I know and like had a whole marriage devoid, left his wife. I think he still lived with her, but she was like supporting him.
- [135:39]
B
Yeah, it's just like you're seeing the collapse of human relations because suddenly you're,
- [135:46]
A
you know, it's like that movie her.
- [135:49]
B
Yeah, just like her
- [135:51]
A
man. He was ahead of his time with that one.
- [135:53]
B
That was incredible. That's so accurate.
- [135:55]
A
Accurate. Yeah.
- [135:56]
B
At that point where he's like, how many other people are you speaking to?
- [135:59]
A
Right.
- [136:00]
B
And she's like, oh, 847. And then it's like. Because you think you've got personal relationship.
- [136:05]
A
Yeah.
- [136:06]
B
So it's a fascinating thing when it comes to agency from all These different perspectives and like, how do we lobby government when we. When these things are kind of like already out the door and what are you lobbying for? It's like nobody's going to kind of put anything back in the box. It's Pandora's box. Right? It's already. So I think it's more about giving education to people to say, this is how you use a large language model in terms of like, don't do it. Get it to do the writing for you or the making of whatever it is for you. Give it something that you've made, something you've written, and then get it to critique it. So it is this kind of synthesis rather than an outsource. And I think it's just a basic, like, you know, instruction. But it may just, you know, especially for young kids who haven't formed their brains, you know, when you, when you're like.
- [136:55]
A
Right.
- [136:56]
B
You know, when you formed your neural networks and you and you. And you've got something to play with, then you're in a much better position than a young kid that's kind of outsourcing apps.
- [137:05]
A
Yeah, right. I mean, just like drugs, right. When kids are developed, when young, developing children get really into drugs or psychedelics, whatever, it can really screw them up when their brain actually does become fully formed and they have like warped perspective or they had like actual physiological issues, like seeing things 24 7.
- [137:19]
B
Yeah. So this is a big part of what we're doing with the center for Human Agency. I mean, we've got this. We got Tristan Harris talking about center for Humane Technology. And I think that how we use these technologies now will really dictate our future. And I think that it's a lot to do with having this literacy around these technologies and understanding that what you're doing now has implications for your future, for your kids future, especially if you're just no longer really there. You're in a relationship with an AI that's completely consuming you. You're no longer available. If we think about presence being longevity and you're no longer present to your kids, or your kids are no longer present to you. And this is why I started this project with. With my friend Josh, because he felt like he was losing his kids to gaming and they weren't able to hold conversations and they weren't really. Yeah. And he was like, what the hell can I do as a parent to understand what it means to be a good ancestor? You know, and what we do at the psydelic nexus is really understanding the impact of technology and trying to create humane technology that will have. Like when you're a designer, when you're an AI, you know, designer, like when you're designing these systems and you're not thinking about the impact on the human, you're just thinking about, oh, let's get to AGI. And actually, you know, you ask Peter Thiel, should humanity survive? And he just sits there and sort of like goldfish, you know, Right. Jesus, man. Like, are you not human? Do you not have kids? You don't think we should survive? Like, that's, that's where a lot of people are at. And it's like, like it's actually pretty doomer. You know, it's like let's, let's like make sure that we have a future for the, you know, for the kids. Like they are our future. And if we're like not giving them guidance on, on how to use these technologies but also not being patronizing because it's like the, the hardest thing is to actually, you know, design technology for, for, for any kind of use. Because it'll always be bastard by, you know, by anyone.
- [139:29]
A
Yeah, no, it will for sure. So, so what's the next steps for the whole DMTX thing? Is this, how is this going to evolve? You said, you mentioned the, the thing that's going on in, in the Caribbean.
- [139:43]
B
In the Caribbean, yeah. So St. Vincent and the Grenadines. We're very lucky to have a license that enables us to do these, these studies legally. And I think the, the really good thing about that is that we don't have the red tape that a lot of these universities, these clinical trials that are happening in the west have, but also huge responsibility to make sure we do it well.
- [140:06]
A
Yeah.
- [140:07]
B
Take advantage of the context, the fact that you're doing it in an extraordinarily beautiful location.
- [140:11]
A
I think it's really, probably really hard.
- [140:13]
B
Yeah.
- [140:14]
A
That was the problem with the John Hopkins psychedelic study with the religious professionals because they found out, thought that all the researchers were just like hanging out partying with all the subjects, like doing drugs together after hours.
- [140:26]
B
Huge, hugely problematic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is why the maps, you know, the FDA for, yeah, for maps didn't go through. And yeah, it's a, it's a really problematic space but we're really, you know, new Nordics is the not for profit research arm of, of Elusis and it's, you know, we want to, you basically, you know, I've shown you some of the missions. It's a lot to do with exploring consciousness and really understanding like the, you know, the work that Andrew Gallimore's doing. How do we really, you know, upgrade humanity through, through these technologies? Is it possible, is it something that we can show that these are, these entities as I've experienced, have some sort of benevolence, Benevolence for us, you know, can we show benevolence back? You know, is there, is there anything they need? It's a very, very extractive economy otherwise.
- [141:20]
A
Also, wouldn't it be absolutely terrifying if we did figure out exactly what consciousness was?
- [141:28]
B
Same thing with what was.
- [141:29]
A
I mean, you think aliens would disrupt human civilization and meltdown religions. What would happen if we figured out exactly, exactly what consciousness was? Yeah, it worked.
- [141:39]
B
I, I hope we don't. I really do. I really, I really think that the mysteries should remain mysteries. I think that it's, I think it's
- [141:45]
A
what makes us human.
- [141:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's the partial understanding, it's the, it's the seeking, it's the. I like, you know, when we talk about the, the VR headset, I think that it's limited by design. Just like these DMT trips are limited generally by design. It's like I think that we have the opportunity to put off, you know, dip in. But don't spend your whole time like peeking beyond the veil. Let's try and like have a, you know, we're blessed, I think we're super blessed to have this experience of being human. And I think ultimately these mysteries, just like in Egypt, there's so many incredible things. Each site that I go to is a, is a mystery in itself and I, and they bear, repeat, repeat visits because you are just scratching away at the surface of this mystery just like we're scratching the way, at the surface of our potential. And I think that, you know, it's a multi generational project and it should be, you know, if we have the hubris of thinking that we're gonna, you know, come up with the answers, I think that it's foolhardy.
- [142:50]
A
Very well said. Man, you got a plane to catch?
- [142:53]
B
I do.
- [142:53]
A
Thank you for doing this.
- [142:54]
B
Thank you so much.
- [142:55]
A
Where can people learn more about your work, work and everything else?
- [142:57]
B
You can go to contextology.com this contains all of my talks and papers and. Yeah, contextology.org right. Cool. Yeah, it's just fresh off the press. Perfect, thank you.
- [143:12]
A
All right man, we'll link this stuff below. Yeah, thanks again. We'll have to do this again, man.
- [143:16]
B
Yeah. Thank you, Danny.
- [143:17]
A
All right, good night everybody. Cheers. Athletic Brewing Company crafts award winning non alcoholic beers for those who want to be of part of every round. With over 185 flavor awards, there are exceptional NA beers that fit your lifestyle and any social occasion. Summer's full of good times and Athletic fits right in. Go to athleticbrewing.com to have brews delivered to your door or find them at a bar, restaurant or store near you. Near Beer Athletic Brewing Co. Fit for all times.