Are You a Preacher, Prosecutor, Scientist, or Politician?

Summary

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
Episode: Are You a Preacher, Prosecutor, Scientist, or Politician?
Date: May 14, 2026
Podcast Network: Vox Media

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and candid episode, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dig into Adam’s influential “Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, Scientist” framework from his book Think Again. Against a backdrop of cultural polarization and surface-level debates—especially around complex topics like AI—the hosts examine why it’s so easy to slip into entrenched argument modes and how cultivating a “scientist” mindset may help us learn, adapt, and connect more effectively. Mixing personal anecdotes, research, and playful banter, they also reflect on expanding the model, the role of self-awareness, and the social dynamics that make changing our minds so difficult.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Four Modes: Definitions & Dynamics

(Starts ~02:50)

• Recap of the Framework:

  • Preacher Mode: Defending one's sacred beliefs, delivering persuasive sermons to uphold ideals.
  • Prosecutor Mode: Attacking flawed reasoning in others, aiming to win arguments.
  • Politician Mode: Lobbying for approval, adapting views to please constituents or the room.
  • Scientist Mode: Treating opinions as hypotheses, decisions as experiments, embracing curiosity.
    • Quote:

      "What makes thinking like a scientist powerful is it reminds you that every opinion you hold is just a hypothesis. And every decision you make, it's just an experiment." – Adam Grant (08:36)

• Why We Default to the Other Modes

  • Under threat or uncertainty, preaching, prosecuting, or politicking feels safer (“armor”) than the vulnerability of humility and inquiry.
    • Quote:

      "We live in a world that is creating threats that make all of those modes more sensible in the moment...often the exact opposite of what we need to do in a time of stress and turbulence." – Adam Grant (04:00)

• Real-Life Example: AI Adoption

  • Cassidy describes how organizational responses to AI innovation often default to preacher (“this is the death of humanity”), prosecutor (“here’s why you’re wrong”), or politician (“what will make me look good in this moment?”) instead of the slower, pausing, hypothesis-testing stance of scientist mode.
    • Quote:

      "Scientist mode requires deep time and deep thinking and expansiveness." – Cassidy Hubbard (07:03)

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2. The Personal ‘Bounce’: Testing Hypotheses with Identity

(Starts ~12:10)

• Cassidy introduces "the bounce," the high-energy, immersive way she tests major life decisions—emotionally “living” alternate choices to see what fits, rather than just imagining outcomes.

• Contrast with Others

  • Her husband Steve (a pediatrician) tests options with analytic data, while she learns by embodying the decision. This method has helped their marriage and decision-making.
    • Quote:

      "My mode of experimentation is...I have to embody it, you have to live as if you've already committed to the option in order to know what you really think of it." – Adam Grant (15:58)

    • Memorable anecdote: Deciding whether to leave Houston (20:12):

      "We gave ourselves 90 days...said on the count of three we’d turn over our move-stay ratio. Both said 5,149 stay in Houston." – Cassidy Hubbard

• Vulnerability of the Bounce:

  • Without this active experimentation, Cassidy goes straight into preacher or prosecutor mode. The bounce is her safeguard for maintaining openness.

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3. The Social Pressure & Identity Traps of Belief

(Starts ~23:05)

• Brené reads Adam’s passage:

  "We become so wrapped up in preaching that we're right, prosecuting others who are wrong, and politicking for support that we don't think about—or even can think about—our own views." (23:05)

• Polling as Politicking?
  Depends on motivation: seeking validation versus thoughtful input (24:46).

• The Social Risk of Rethinking

  • Adam reflects on how letting go of core beliefs means risking a sense of self, community, and status.
    • Quote:

      "We start to treat our beliefs like possessions...We display them on rentals...We hoard and protect." – Adam Grant (30:17) "Who I am is what I think, when in fact, who I am should be what I value." – Adam Grant (31:52)

• Public Admission of Changed Beliefs

  • In most communities, changing your mind is penalized—except in rare micro-communities that see it as growth.
    • Quote:

      "I want to know how we can build a world where it's easier for people to say, 'You know what? I preached this idea last year...and I've realized I was missing something important.'...For people to say, 'Wow, you've evolved.'" – Adam Grant (43:06)

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4. Armor: When Modes Become Protection

(Starts ~27:22)

• Vulnerability expert Brené Brown links preacher, prosecutor, and politician modes to “armor”—self-protective strategies against anxiety, uncertainty, or accountability.

  • Quote:

    "I don't think these are useful modes for me when they are armor for me...armor against anxiety, uncertainty, fear, vulnerability, perfectionism." – Cassidy Hubbard (27:22)

• Self-awareness is the key to recognizing when these modes help or hinder.

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5. Moralizing & Group Dynamics

(Starts ~35:48)

• Cassidy admits to quickly moralizing disagreements (“I’m a fast moralizer”), escalating from differences in belief to existential, social, or ethical stakes.

  • Quote:

    "What drives me going into preacher mode and prosecutor mode is attaching morality to issues." – Cassidy Hubbard (35:48)

• Adam shares the “public service” feeling of correcting others’ false beliefs, realizing the social costs for people whose identity and community are linked to these beliefs.

• Belonging & Community:

  • Abandoning beliefs can mean abandoning social ties or identity groups (38:08).

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6. Treating Beliefs as Hypotheses: Growth, God, and Openness

(Starts ~41:38)

• Adam’s big takeaway: treat all beliefs as provisional “hunches” or hypotheses—experiment, test, and adjust.

  • Quote:

    "The more that our thoughts are like hunches or tentative opinions, the easier it is to treat them as hypotheses and then run the little experiments to find out during the bounce...what might be the values aligned choice." – Adam Grant (41:40)

• Cassidy shares applying this approach to her religious beliefs, eventually settling on nuanced convictions after years of testing (44:04).

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7. Expanding the Model: Teacher Mode & Socratic Discomfort

(Starts ~47:12)

• Cassidy argues for the addition of “Teacher” as a distinct role—someone who explains messiness and complexity, synthesizes, and invites dialogue without oversimplification or armor.

  • Quote:

    "Teacher mode is what saves you from moralizing a hundred percent." – Brené Brown (50:27)

• The best teaching, for both hosts, means embracing discomfort and welcoming change from students.

  • Quote:

    "My job is discomfort...push people into a stretch that's gonna leave stretch marks, you know, cognitive stretch marks." – Cassidy Hubbard (49:10)

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8. The Contagiousness of Modes and Group Dynamics

(Starts ~53:32)

• These thinking modes are “contagious”: if one person shifts into politicking, others often unconsciously follow, warping group behavior.
  • Quote:

    "Armor can be contagious...Start doing the same thing. Because armor can be contagious. Perfectionism, different ways that we protect ourselves." – Cassidy Hubbard (53:32)

  • Example:

    "Somebody checks in pre-meeting or post-meeting, and all of a sudden you realize...everybody’s politicking by having the conversations behind closed doors." – Adam Grant (54:26)

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9. Practical Takeaways and Media Recommendations

(Timestamps ~55:18 onward)

• TV as a Case Study: Cassidy recommends The Diplomat (Netflix) for observing all four modes in action, suggesting it as a learning tool for business students (55:31).
• Small Experiments & the Bounce: Adam resolves to “do a little more bouncing,” while Cassidy vows to be more explicit about her process when collaborating (58:13).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Preacher/Prosecutor/Politician Modes:

  "We become so wrapped up in preaching that we're right, prosecuting others who are wrong, and politicking for support that we don't think about our...own views." – Adam Grant (23:05)

• On the Scientist Mode:

  "Every opinion you hold is just a hypothesis. And every decision you make is just an experiment." – Adam Grant (08:50)

• Self-Protection:

  "Armor against anxiety, uncertainty, fear, vulnerability, perfectionism." – Cassidy Hubbard (27:41)

• On Testing Beliefs About God:

  "I decided I’m not gonna completely prosecute the idea, nor am I gonna believe it fully. I’m just gonna treat it as a hunch and spend a couple of decades testing it. Turns out for me, it's true." – Cassidy Hubbard (44:04)

• Changing Your Mind:

  "Just because I am willing and able to think again doesn’t mean I always do it at the right time or in the right direction...Sometimes my standard of proof is too high." – Adam Grant (45:41)

• Expanding the Framework:

  "Teacher mode is what saves you from moralizing a hundred percent...because your style of teaching is very Socratic." – Brené Brown (50:27)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:50 — Introduction to the preacher, prosecutor, politician, scientist framework
• 07:03 — Scientist mode and the challenge of expansiveness
• 12:10 — The "bounce" and how Cassidy tests hypotheses
• 20:12 — Story: deciding whether to move cities
• 23:05 — Risks of defaulting to preaching, prosecuting, politicking
• 27:22 — “Armor” and the emotional function of modes
• 30:17 — Beliefs as possessions, identity, and letting go
• 35:48 — Morality, groupthink, and why it’s hard to change
• 41:38 — Treating beliefs as hypotheses; making openness safe
• 44:04 — Personal spiritual journey as an experiment
• 47:12 — Teacher mode: translating ideas, Socratic discomfort
• 53:32 — Contagion of modes and group dynamics
• 55:31 — Watching The Diplomat as a case study
• 58:13 — Commitments to more “bouncing” and explicit decision processes

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Tone & Language

The episode is warm, direct, often playful—marked by the hosts’ intellectual rigor and mutual respect, but also wit and self-deprecating humor (see astrology banter at 38:56). There is a focus on real-life application and an honest interrogation of the frameworks they both champion and challenge.

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Conclusion

This episode is an essential listen for anyone frustrated by stuck debates—in the workplace, at home, or in the culture at large—and who wants to adopt more psychologically flexible, collaborative habits of mind. Brené and Adam model self-aware vulnerability, urging listeners to interrogate not just their opinions, but their ways of thinking—the “armor” they habitually don. Their invitation: embrace “the bounce,” treat beliefs as hypotheses, and create both private and public spaces for rethinking.

Transcript

[Skylar Diggins]

What's up, y'?

[Brene Brown]

All?

[Skylar Diggins]

I'm Skylar Diggins, seven time WNBA all star, Olympic gold medalist and mom.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports. And mom.

[Skylar Diggins]

And this is and mom. A community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th. Tap in with us.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I think you're more emotional than you think.

[Brene Brown]

I think that's probably true, but I'm so much less emotional than most people that it's easy to stereotype myself as lacking affect.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I think that little feeling box is busting at the seams. And I think in just in no time whatsoever, it's gonna just poof. And then we're gonna have like a moaning, touchy feely out. Adam Grant. I think that's coming.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I'm waiting for the data on that. I don't buy it.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

That's okay. You can wait on the data. I see it. My emotional me sees emotional you. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show

[Brene Brown]

from the Vox Media podcast network.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Hi, everybody.

[Brene Brown]

I'm Brene Brown and I am still Adam Grant.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

It's good to see you, Adam.

[Brene Brown]

Same. What are you wearing? That looks like a soccer football jersey.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

This is my Liverpool Football Club sweatshirt. Rough season, but we won the derby against Everton. This is big news. And so I am celebrating my team because, as we both know, celebrating small successes and wins. This is a big win, though, is important despite the larger context of a tougher season. So go Reds. Thanks.

[Brene Brown]

Way to end on a high note.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I mean, I love my Liverpool Football Club very, very much. Very, very dearly. Okay. I pitched this idea to you for this podcast today because it's one of your frameworks. It's been really meaningful to me and it's stressing me out.

[Brene Brown]

That's my goal in life. I wake up in the morning thinking, how do I stress Brene Brown out?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Today I know you're winning.

[Brene Brown]

I'll create a framework.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay, let's go to the framework that's pissing me off. Segue. I'm telling you why. I'm telling you why. This is pissing me off. This is a framework that was. When did you. When did you write. When did this come out? And think again.

[Brene Brown]

Think again came out early 2021. So I was. I guess I was writing it in 2019 and 20.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay. And this is a framework around modes. Is modes a fair word? Modes that we can enter, specifically politician mode, preacher mode, prosecutor mode, and scientist mode. And one of the reasons why it's really frustrating to me right now is. And I want to know what your reflection is on this in the world right now with everything that's going on, I need. My nervous system needs more scientist mode in myself and others and it is waning, dude. It is scientist mode. Even my scientist friends are going into politician preaching and prosecutor mode. Are you observing this or is it. I mean, I know there's an attack on science, but just in the way that people are presenting arguments and talking about issues. Are you seeing this?

[Brene Brown]

I would love to actually love to see data on this, but from my observation, yeah, I think. Well, I think it's, you know, it's probably worth just saying preaching, prosecuting and politicking, they happen a lot under threat. So somebody attacks one of my beliefs and I think I need to now start serving the Kool Aid that I've been drinking for years. That's preacher mode. Somebody makes an argument I don't think is persuasive and I lock into prosecutor mode and I try to win the case and I realize I need people's approval and I start politicking and lobbying people and flattering them and brown nosing and doing whatever I can to appease my audience. And that's politician mode. And I think that we live in a world that is creating threats that make all of those modes more sensible in the moment than they might be if there was less flux or less stress. Because, I mean, when the world is changing under your feet, it's really helpful to feel like you have some ideals to preach. And when somebody makes an argument that your job isn't going to exist, it gives you a sense of confidence and security to prosecute them. And when you're wondering whether you're going to have support from a group of people, appeasing them, appealing to them, gives you a sense of belonging. And I think that that is all completely understandable and often the exact opposite of what we need to do in a time of stress and turbulence. Tell me about your experience of these things because it sounds like you're doing them.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I think AI adoption is a really good example where I'm seeing a lot in the C suite among senior leaders, but also just across individual contributors and people managers. I'm seeing the same thing about AI in my personal life. People go into preacher, the death of humanity. It's over for all of us. You know, this is the devil. I see prosecutor mode, which is, you know, here's what it's going to do, here's how it's going to Affect us. You're wrong about this. You're right about this. I'm seeing politicking. Well, there could be really good information. What do you think? And we could increase productivity. And it's going to give you more time to, you know, it's like whatever. The one person will say four different things in four days based on the way the weather's blowing. What I'm starting to learn, if we use AI as an example of scientist mode, is scaring me. And I want you to tell me yes or no if I'm right about this. Scientist mode requires deep time and deep thinking and expansiveness.

[Brene Brown]

I think it benefits from all those things. I don't know if it always requires it, but yes.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay. Okay. Because one of the things that we saw early, and we do have the data on this, is that people made AI decisions early. Early organizations did, out of preacher and politic mode. They said, let's adapt it. You know, they didn't even align it with business strategy. Let's just get a plan. Get a plan. Hal, what do you want the plan to do? I don't give a shit. Just get a plan. By Thursday, the board's on my ass. Okay. I don't know why I'm sounding like a 50s guy, a 1950s, like, Jersey guy, but there you go. That was my interpretation of what was happening in rooms I was in.

[Brene Brown]

You're in Mad Men, I'm in Maddening.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah. Yeah. There was no scientific thinking. Okay, here's the new technology. Here's what it does. Here's what we do. How can we deploy it against this? How do we iterate test, change? Iterate test, change. And so what I'm wondering, okay, I'm hearing you rejecting my argument that. Not rejecting, but modifying my argument that it requires expansiveness, that scientific thinking requires expansiveness. Does it require pause?

[Brene Brown]

I think it depends on the way that you're putting the scientist mindset into action. So.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay, tell me more.

[Brene Brown]

So, you know, when I think about it as an alternative to the others, I think about, you know, preaching. I'm just proselytizing my existing views. Prosecuting. I'm going to attack your views or your proposal and politicking. I don't even have views.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

I'm just trying to figure out what you think and get on board with that. And I think what makes thinking like a scientist powerful is it reminds you that every opinion you hold is just a hypothesis.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I love this.

[Brene Brown]

And every decision you make, it's just an experiment. And I think you're spot on that developing informed opinions takes time. Good thinking is hard and sometimes slow. And you're also right that doing good experiments requires both space and a broader view of what you're trying to accomplish and what different options might be, as opposed to saying, well, there's one way to go, let me just implement that. I think the reason I'm hesitating a little bit is that there's a version of thinking like a scientist that can be done very quickly. So I mean, it's basically what Eric Rees was talking about in lean startup where you create a minimum viable product. It's a, you know, it's kind of a rough prototype and then you put it out quickly, you gather feedback from the market and you iterate. And I think that that's a version of scientific thinking too where you can just say, you know, hey, I've got this idea, how would we test it quickly? And then let's see what we learn and let's adjust. And I wonder if you can get to the same. I might be wrong. I'm not gonna let my ideas become part of my identity by just doing sort of quick short testing of ideas that you want to by saying, let's pause, let's step back, let's do deep reflection.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay, so it's really interesting to me. I love the idea of small experiments. I think about everything in my life that way, like just. But. And I can do it pretty quickly, probably. What's the hypothesis? What are the data we need to test? If this, does this hold? Does this, does this hold water? Is this true? And then if not, what did I learn and how do I just get to the new hypothesis? Not the answer. I just go from hypothesis to hypothesis, basically.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. Oh, okay. So you mentioned small wins earlier.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

In the context of Liverpool, Sim Sitkin wrote a great paper on what he called a strategy of small losses. Which is what's the tiniest experiment you could run to figure out if your hypothesis is wrong? And then that saves you a ton of time and energy and maybe money too, because you're able to rule it out as opposed to sort of throwing a lot of good money after bad. And so it sounds like you find yourself doing that on a regular basis.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I do, I really, I think in terms of hypotheses all the time. And it's probably just because it's maybe my training, but I think also it's interesting. I want to go down, I want to see if we can mind meld two things. You and I had an interesting. You and I had when we started the podcast, you had one idea in your head of how it would run. I had a different idea in my head. And part of our hypotheses, they were different hypotheses about the best and most effective way to do it. And during a call last week, you said to me, man, you've really changed your mind. And I said, you said something like, you changed your mind, you changed back, and now I think you're changing again. And do you remember saying this?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

And it was interesting. Cause I said, oh, I was in the bounce. And you looked at me like, what are you talking about? And this has saved my marriage. So the way I test hypotheses is very different than the way my husband Steve tests the hypothesis. And he speaks in this language. Cause he's a pediatrician. And so he's always looking at differential diagnoses and hypotheses and ruling things out and ruling things in. So he kind of thinks like that when we say, I think this is a good idea, we should change neighborhoods or we should put, you know, I like this public school. We should move to this neighborhood or whatever. The way I test that hypothesis to me is I get immediately on the Internet, I find the house we're going to buy. I go to some meetings at the school. And while that's happening, he is in full fledged panic because he's like, she's moved. Cause I'm emotionally moved into a new house. I'm emotionally moved into a new neighborhood. I'm like, I'm calling him from the grocery store like, hey, I'm at the new heb in our new neighborhood. He's like, we have not moved. We have not even tested this. We have not even made a decision. I'm like, no, this is what testing it looks like for me. I'm in the new H E B. I'm at the new grocery store. It's great. They have a tortillaria. And so what we started saying to each other is, we're going into the bounce and I'm going to test my the bounce. We're in a bounce. Like, this is how. This is the hypothesis testing period is called the bounce.

[Brene Brown]

Why?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Because I'm bouncing all around.

[Brene Brown]

Got it.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I'm saying, I'm moving. I'm not moving. We're going to run the podcast this way. We're not going to run this way. I hate this way. I love this way. I'm in the cause. Why are you laughing? Because I do that, right?

[Brene Brown]

Oh, I'm just. Yeah, you do do that. And I didn't fully understand it until you describe it now. Because I'm used to people. I know lots of people who are indecisive or wishy washy.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

But they usually have. They have ambivalent opinions and lot of uncertainty. And you bounce from one extreme to the other.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

No, I don't. And I'm not ambivalent or wishy washy. I am trying on. I'm speaking your language here. This is how a hypothesis test. I say, we're thinking about this move. I am moving in emotionally to this house, in this neighborhood. I'm going to the school meetings. And meanwhile, Steve has a very. He's collecting data. He's like, how long is the drive? What is the commute? What do we do here? What is the tax system over there? You know, like he's doing something else. Then he'll say, I'll say, I love it. I love the new neighborhood. I think we should go. He's like, nope, we're not coming out of the Bounce until this date. And I'll say, no, let's go now. And he's like, so he'll come back to me a week later and say, I'm ready to move. I'm like, oh, no, I've already moved back. I didn't like it over there at all. So we have different ways of testing our hypotheses.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I have to fully embed the minimal viable product. I have to do it. I have to, you know, and so one of the things I was noticing in my own private life and work life is when I'm in the Bounce, I have to watch becoming a preacher, a politician, or a prosecutor.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is what I was getting at when I misspoke a moment ago and said you go from one extreme to the other. It sounds like you're going from one extreme to the other.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

And I, And I misperceive it as you actually having, like, you loved. You loved an idea and now you hated it, when really that was your, Your mode of experimentation is, I hear you saying, you have to embody it, you have to live as if you've already committed to the option in order to know what you really think of it.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yes. What do you call that? Smart? Is that the first word that comes to mind?

[Brene Brown]

No, no. I was actually thinking Herminia Ibarra, provisional self. You are trying on a new wardrobe. You haven't bought it, but you're looking like you're looking at this wardrobe from every angle. And you're admiring everything that's great about it, and then you find something you don't like about it, and then you try on a new wardrobe and the whole thing starts over.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay, what does that mean?

[Brene Brown]

I think it means that you. I mean, I'm not going to say anything you don't already know, but you experience things in order to decide about them. You do something that most people don't do.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

The part that's unusual about this is a lot of people decide. A lot of people make big decisions by imagining how they would feel in the future. And they're doing a Gilbert and Wilson style affective forecasting exercise.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Which you wrote about in Atlas to the Heart and how bad we are at it. Very and terrible at it. And so what you're doing is you're solving that problem. So most of the time, I think the mistake that a lot of people make is they trust the affective forecast and they say, okay, I love the thought of this new neighborhood. And I can see raising my kids there's. And so I'm going to move there and be really happy. And then they show up and they realize, oh, like I'm on a main road and there's a ton of noise. And I didn't really think about that because I love the house and it's also doubled my commute. But I didn't think about that because I didn't drive from work to the new neighborhood. I just drove to the new neighborhood. And you actually go like, you go. And you do the drive like you. You imagine the commute. You sit on the lawn.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I do.

[Brene Brown]

You hear what the noise is like. And so you are time traveling. You're putting yourself in the situation as if you've already committed to it so that you can experience what it's like as opposed to just imagining what it will be like. That's a better hypothesis testing strategy.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

But if I. Sorry, Steve, but if I don't do that, I immediately become a prosecutor and a preacher.

[Brene Brown]

Because you don't force yourself to get out of your existing preference or comfort zone and actually try on the new experience.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

No. And I'm so scared about what I'm gonna find that I'm gonna convert you and evangelize you. Be an evangelical person around my beliefs. I'm so afraid. Or I'm so afraid that I'm going to attack your ideas. So the only way I can stay in scientist mode is to test the hypothesis with my selfhood.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And then the challenge is you've Gone from being at risk of preaching the status quo to preaching the change and making sure that the people around you know that this is part of how you are iterating and vetting. Not, not. You've already made up your mind.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah. And that's why we call it the bounce. And it has, it's interesting when we, you know, you have very small windows to move, I think, when your kids are in school. And so we had a window between middle school and high school that we were thinking about moving, leaving Houston, and we went into a bounce and we gave ourselves 90 days. And on March 1, we were going to share the move stay ratio with each other on post it notes. So there was no like bandwagon or halo effect, no anchoring. We were just going to turn them over at the same time.

[Brene Brown]

And

[Cassidy Hubbard]

that morning over coffee, I said, are you ready? And you know, he said, and I had fully inhabited the move. I had rejected. I had done all those things, but I spent no energy preaching, attacking, politicking people. I just was in the bounce. So I had full permission to do my hypothesized testing. And it was really interesting because we said on the count of three we were going to turn it over. And on the count of three we turned it over. And my post it note said, 5,149 stay in Houston. And his said 5,149 stay in Houston.

[Brene Brown]

Wow.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah. But it's how we stay married. Because what he told me before we came up with this idea is when I'm afraid my prosecutor and preacher feel dangerous and he can feel backed into a corner.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, I can. I can see that.

[Matt Buchel]

Hey, I'm Matt Buchel, comedian, writer and floating head you may or may not have seen on your fyp. And I'm starting a brand new podcast. Wait, Don't Swipe Away, it's called. That sounds like a lot. I'm going to start by breaking down whatever insanity is happening in the world. And then I'll sit down with a comedian or actor or writer or honestly, anyone who responds to my dm. This is not the place to get the news, but it is a place to feel a little bit better about it. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. That sounds like a lot. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network,

[Skylar Diggins]

this week on Net Worth and Chill, we're diving into another edition of Am I the Asshole Finance edition. And trust me, these money dilemmas will have you questioning everything. I'm breaking down real stories from real people who are navigating financial situations that range from mildly awkward to absolutely unhinged. And I'm giving you my unfiltered take on who's in the right and who needs a serious reality check. Because let's be real. When it comes to mixing relationships and finances, someone's always asking if they're the asshole. Learn how to set boundaries, protect your wealth, and avoid becoming the villain in your own financial story. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com/your rich BFF does Chinese

[Brene Brown]

President Xi Jinping see Trump as a partner or an opportunity? So President Xi comes to this meeting with quite a lot of conf. They recognize that President Trump is dangerous, potentially he's unpredictable. But I think they also believe that they can manipulate him. I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan, and we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, former U.S. deputy Secretary of

[Cassidy Hubbard]

State Kurt Campbell joins us to discuss

[Brene Brown]

the Trump Xi summit in Beijing. The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I want to read this paragraph on this model, this framework that kills me about how and why we slip into these mindsets. I think it's really powerful. I come back to it, I have to tell you, Adam, all the time, in a like, damn you, Adam kind of way. So we slip into the mindsets of three different professions, preachers, prosecutors, and politicians. In each of these modes, we take on a particular identity and used a distinct set of tools. We go into preacher mode when our sacred beliefs are in jeopardy. We deliver sermons to protect and promote our ideals. Prosecutor mode. When we recognize flaws in other people's reasoning, we marshal arguments to prove them wrong and win our case. Politician mode. When we're seeking to win over an audience, we campaign and lobby for the approval of constituents. The risk is this is the line. The risk is that we become so wrapped up in preaching that we're right, prosecuting others who are wrong, and politicking for support that we don't think about our. We don't rethink or think about our own views. And I would argue here that you write we do so much of this that we don't bother to rethink our own views. I would argue. I would make a slight edit to this line and say that we don't even can think about our own views, much less rethink them. Sometimes I can. Do you think law. Do you think polling people is part of politicking? Like, what do you think I should do. What do you think I should do? Is that part of politicking?

[Brene Brown]

Sometimes I think it depends on the motives why you're doing it.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting.

[Brene Brown]

The same way that changing your mind is learning, but changing your position is flip flopping. I think pulling people. Pulling people. If you're just adding them up and trying to go with the favorite option, that's politicking. Polling people and saying, you know what, I don't know that I'm thinking about this in the right way or I don't know that I've considered all the information and I want to take that in to pressure test my hypothesis. That is not politicking. That's thinking more like a scientist. But as you read this to me, I'm like, okay, so are you asking me to rethink Think Again? Because it would be ironic if I weren't willing to.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Am I asking you to rethink Think Again?

[Brene Brown]

You actually made me rethink something in it when we were talking about these ideas, which is, I think sometimes you actually made me rethink two things. Three things. Three things. We could talk about all of them, but the first one is sometimes I'm too harsh on preaching, prosecuting and politicking. And I forget to acknowledge there's a time and a place for those. Preaching is marketing. We all need marketers in our lives. I think prosecuting is often how we prevent bad ideas from seeing the light of day. And I think politicking is, you know, is sometimes necessary for getting a coalition to support something unproven. And I think you said, hey, wait a minute, let's not just say we should always go into scientist mode. Let's make sure that people recognize there is value in having a skill in each of these areas.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I think that's true.

[Brene Brown]

I love prosecutors when I'm writing a book. They are my challenge network. They are the people who question arguments that aren't well supported and push me to make a stronger case. I need that. I don't think either of us could have given a TED Talk if we didn't learn a little bit from preachers about how to advance an idea and communicate it and make it worth spreading. And so, yeah, I'm curious because you're. Now you approach this conversation from where I normally am, which is too much preaching, prosecuting and politicking. How are you thinking about when those are useful modes and when they're not?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

So from a dare to lead kind of vulnerability perspective, I don't think these Are useful modes for me when they are armor for me.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, Ooh, say more. Armor against what?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Anxiety, uncertainty, fear, vulnerability, uncertainty, Perfectionism. Not wanting to outsource my decision so I don't have to take accountability or responsibility for them. You know, I have this contract with my stylist who does my hair, who basically it says, I understand that Caitlin will never give me a perm, no matter how much I want one and how much I'm stuck in the 80s. I will never ask for micro bangs, even if things are really hard. Like, this is the contract I have with her. But one of the things that I find myself doing is I can poll people about what they think I should do or where to an event, my close friends, or how to handle an issue when I know damn well what to do. But I don't want to take responsibility for it because it's going to have some consequences that are tough. And I'd like to outsource the decision making, and I'd like to spread evenly the consequences of the decision making over many people. So for me, I can use these. I can use all of these, including scientists, as armor.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And so the distinction then comes down to something very similar to where we landed with shame, which is these. If you're going to use any of these modes of thinking and communicating, they should be aligned with your values, not just your current emotional state.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

That's it. And I think, again, which seems to be the theme of all of our podcasts, self awareness is hugely important. What am I doing? What's driving it, and how is it? Serving or not serving? Yeah, you know.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's interesting as you talk about armor, I think the. I think that I never realized it until now, but prosecutor mode is armor for me because it's costly. I think it's costly to give up on things that you believe, especially if you've based life choices on them.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

I'm thinking about Robert Abelson having written that we start to treat our beliefs like possessions over time.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Oh, God, yes. Yes,

[Brene Brown]

We. We display them on rentals.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Hoard and protect.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think once you get invested in an opinion and turn it into a belief, it becomes a way of life. And so, you know, sometimes I find myself just leaping into prosecutor mode because it's easier to not have to give up a cherished possession. I believed for the longest time that hard work was the key to success, and I organized my life that way. And when people argued that luck and opportunity mattered more than I Thought I was like, no, no, no, no. I want to live in a world in which the harder I work, the more luck I have. And I've kind of created that world around me. And I don't realize all the ways I've been lucky. And it took way longer than it should have for me to abandon that belief because it was so easy to prosecute it and find so many examples in the world and so much evidence. And it's like, okay, just because hard work increases the probability of success doesn't mean that it guarantees success. Why was I not willing to recognize that? Why did I have to prosecute that for so long? Because it had become part of my identity. I think this is the scariest thing we do when we use these mindsets as armor, is we turn our opinions into beliefs, and we turn our beliefs into our identities. And all of a sudden, who I am is what I think, when in fact, who I am should be what I value.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

That's hard in this world.

[Brene Brown]

Increasingly hard.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Increasingly hard.

[Brene Brown]

And this is another thing. So this is the second thing that you have changed my mind about. I normally leap from, there are three steps in order to help people change. Step one is you open them up to a new possibility. Step two is you help them overcome the barriers to realizing that possibility. And then step three is you build a habit around it or a practice around it. And one of the things you made me realize, Renee, we haven't talked about this is I normally just skip right from step one to step three. We do this thing, it's wrong, therefore, we should do the other thing. And you always want to pause and say, why aren't we? What's the barrier? Why is this hard?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

That's really funny, because yesterday on Slack, there was a Slack that said, we'd like to introduce a new way of doing something with social approvals or something. And I said, really appreciate the time and thought, put it into this. Happy to look at a new process. Can I ask what problem we're trying to solve? And so. And then, you know, our colleague came back with, yeah, with a very clear, like, here's what we're trying to do. Because I promise you that this is built inside of me from reading the inner game of tennis for decades, reading it every year for decades. And that whole idea that performance equals potential minus interference, and spending as much time on identifying and getting rid of an interference as building potential has really. I think it's also my love affair with systems theory and not changing the problems we can see, but understanding the Mental models. Because it's a very different way of saying what you're saying. I become a prosecutor, especially, and a preacher, especially when you are introducing. Not you, but someone is introducing or threatening. My mental models. And my mental models are not what I value, but how I make sense of the world and how I make sense of the value that I contribute. And so. And I think you and I ran into this very much when we were, you know, starting to build the podcast that I had really serious mental models around. This is the way it needs to look, because this is the way I've always done it. And. And you had a lot of. You must have learned this from me before you used it against me, because

[Brene Brown]

you were like, for us, not against you.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

For us. Oh, yeah. For us. Yes, sir. Yes. Yes. Father Grant, you said, you know, what is it you're not willing to let go of? Like, why? You know? And so I think, to me, this is fundamentally. This framework is fundamentally the work I want to do over the next couple of years. I want to. In this season of my life, I need to understand how I test my hypotheses and, you know, help people understand that, and hopefully we can find some happy shared ground. But I also. I want to stop prosecuting and preaching. I saw this quote on Instagram the other day that said, I don't fight anymore. I don't argue. Two plus three equals six. Good for you, man. If that's what you think. Have a great day. I want. I want a little bit more of that, because for me, what drives me going into preacher mode and prosecutor mode is attaching morality to issues.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah. You are a fast moralizer.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I am. I'm like, you know, if you believe 2 +3 equals 6, then you have no value for this and that. And then there's going to be this outbreak of this, you know, like, this disease. This is. I'm getting you from your belief to. You're killing all of us in three sentences.

[Brene Brown]

Which is. Which is so funny, because I have a. I have a more. I have a narrower version of that problem. When somebody believes something that I have strong conviction is false, I think it's my job to rescue them from that incorrect belief.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

You do. You do think that. You do think it's public service.

[Brene Brown]

It is public service. I'm like, if I can just help you see that astrology is bunk and the earth is not flat, your life will be so much better. You will be less wrong. And what I don't think about is, wow, not only do you have to abandon a belief system that you've invested a lot in, but also you might lose your entire community who shares those beliefs.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

That's what's attached to identity is community.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And so it never occurs to me to say, hey, like, come on over here to the round Earthers. There are a lot of interesting people and some new ideas that are going to help you. Or, hey, I think the purpose of astrology is for you, part religion and part psychology. You're looking for a cosmology, a larger order to things, and you're also trying to make sense of all the messiness and complexity of human beings. Guess what? There are great religious communities. Maybe that's not your cup of tea. I also happen to belong to a community of really great psychologists who can teach you a little bit about the frameworks that we use to understand the differences between people and what we respond to when we experience other people as aligned or not aligned with us. And there's actually a place where you can belong and find meaning and connection. I never have that conversation with people. I think I should.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah. I think identity is tied directly to belonging and community, and I think those are the big losses that people are experiencing now over and over and over as more groups turn to ideology and prosecuting and preaching and politicking and are very fast to cut anyone from those groups that introduces any idea of critical thinking. So people are not just. These are not just modes of being. These are survival and belonging and community and family. This is like the not invited to the Thanksgiving dinner kind of bullshit right here. And as a Scorpio, I'm so concerned about your disbelief of astrology, because don't

[Brene Brown]

even get me started.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I only believe it when the news is good for the day and something's happening where, like, Taurus is moving out of something. So it's supposed to be, like, the end of April 25th is supposed to be the end of hard things or something for Scorpios. So I am for it right now.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, Brene Confirmation Bias Brown, I see you. I raise you in a Shakespearean sense. I am hoisting you with your own petard.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Okay, well, here's this in a Brene Brown sense, which I'm no competition for the Bard, but if the psychologists want to move more people over from astrology to psychology, you're gonna need better graphics, because the graphics and, yeah, everything's prettier in astrology.

[Brene Brown]

Better graphics. We also need better language. Calling people neurotic and disagreeable is not going to bring them on board.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, and you need to democratize and make more accessible the work. Because I think. I don't know, we just.

[Brene Brown]

That's what I do.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, you do do that. But.

[Brene Brown]

But not enough.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

There's no necklace I can get with the cute scorpion thing on it, and that's what I'm for.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

And I.

[Brene Brown]

And I don't want you to wear a necklace because then that identity has become a literal possession, not just a figurative one. I want to try it on.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

What about my Longhorn?

[Brene Brown]

Oh, you're allowed to have a sports team identity, a university identity. Absolutely. But that's. That's different, right? That's. That's not locking yourself into a belief. That's an affiliation.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Interesting.

[Brene Brown]

I think we should treat ourselves.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Let me just ask you, what sign are you?

[Brene Brown]

I can't answer that question. I don't believe in signs.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Come on. Just come on. When's your birthday?

[Brene Brown]

Can't do it. Can't do it. I cannot dignify this with a response.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Really.

[Brene Brown]

Signs are fictions. Yeah. I mean, I wrote a substack about this a couple years ago called we need to talk about Astrology because I was so tired of having the conversation. But one thing I did not include in it is you're not even the sign you think you are, because the charts were drawn 2,000 years ago and the positions of the planets have changed. And so most people. I think, if I remember correctly, most people are off by a month from what they think their sign is.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

This explains so much.

[Brene Brown]

It explains nothing. Nothing at all. But here's the thing, Brene.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

God, you're so easy. It's not even fun anymore.

[Brene Brown]

I know you're just take the bait so quickly. Here's. I think, the important point, actually. I think I've never really thought about this before, but I think we should treat our beliefs as provisional. I think the more that our thoughts are like hunches or tentative opinions, the easier it is to treat them as hypotheses and then run the little experiments to find out during the bounce or, you know, during the analysis, however you do it, what might be the values aligned choice. And I think we're. We're just too eager to say, well, this is what I believe. And I'm going to. I'm going to shout it from the rooftops and I'm going to post it all over my social media and everybody's going to know what I stand for. And the moment you put that out there, you are trapping yourself in a prison of your own making because you have Made a public commitment to now adhering to that belief. And of course, if we lived in a world that made it easier to admit that we were wrong and treated that as a sign of growth as opposed to a mark of stupidity or ignorance, that would be less of a problem. But I don't think we live in that world yet. I think you and I both have micro communities of people who actually dole out respect when somebody admits they were wrong. Right. For sure. We just did an episode where you said I was totally wrong about humiliation.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

And I was shocked at first, and then I thought, wow, that's a mark of a real scholar. Brene not only changed her mind, she put it out there and said she got it wrong. But most people lose status for admitting that, or they fear the loose status for admitting that. And so they don't. And I want to know how we can build a world where it's easier for people to say, you know what? I preached this idea last year. You know what? I've realized I was missing something important. I prosecuted you, and I have actually become aware that I might not have been correct there. And for people to say, wow, you've evolved. Thank you. As opposed to, you are inconsistent. You're a hypocrite. I no longer respect you.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

So treat beliefs as what we treat beliefs as potential hypotheses.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, hunches.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

This is how I got clear on God.

[Brene Brown]

Did not expect you to go there.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

No, this is. I think I just want to see.

[Brene Brown]

That's a big hunch.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

No, I was raised with the belief that all this is true because, you know, raised in the church, Catholic church. This is all true. And then when I got into my 20s, I decided I'm not gonna completely prosecute the idea, nor am I gonna believe it fully. I'm just gonna treat it as a hunch and spend a couple of decades testing it. Turns out for me, it's true. Yeah. But I did challenge it from every corner. For me, and it's a personal thing, but it rattled my faith in church and doubled down my faith in God. So that was an interesting experiment, which. Yeah. So I think the application is really broad. And I will say I have to give you kudos. You're a rethinker. You really. You really walk your talk. It's been wild to watch you change your mind to rethink things. And I respect it. I thank you. I do. I just respect it. I think if we do, everyone gives lip service to always being curious and curiosity and learning. Curiosity and learning and if you're really committed to that, you have to be equally committed to rethinking and realizing your hypothesis was wrong. You know, if you're allowing for new data,

[Brene Brown]

I mean, some people call it changing your mind. I think of it as growing. But I also think, you know, just because I am willing and able to think again doesn't mean I always do it at the right time or in the right direction. And one of the things I've noticed over the last few years, and I've gotten some really good feedback about this, is I. Sometimes my standard of proof is too high. So somebody brings me a suggestion or an idea or a concern, I'm like, show me the airtight evidence or the bulletproof logic, and if not, I'm good where I am. You've not met my level of your threshold. Yeah, exactly. And what that means is sometimes I'm too reluctant to try something unproven. And so I need to be quicker to say, you know what? I don't have to change my mind yet. I just have to recognize the possibility that there might be a better way. And, like, let's run the pilot and

[Cassidy Hubbard]

inhabit your hypothesis like me.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, let's bounce around a little bit.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, let's bounce. The bounce is super hard.

[Brene Brown]

Do the trial. Yeah, I like that a lot now. Okay. This actually is a good segue to the third thing that I think you've pushed me to rethink on this, which is, I don't know if you remember this. We were at a conference in Europe last year, and you asked me about a missing mental model from the framework.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I do remember this. Teacher.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, teacher. At first I was like, yeah, that's cute. It rhymes with preacher. Good job, Renee. And then I thought about it and I realized, yeah, when I think about my identity, my professional identity, and particularly the work that I do that's public facing that lives in the center of the Venn diagram of scientist and teacher.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Scientist and teacher or preacher?

[Brene Brown]

Scientist and teacher. Because.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Oh, that's your. Oh, yes, yes.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And so I realized, I think there is something missing, because when we think about explaining ideas or translating ideas or synthesizing knowledge, to move from scientist to preacher mode means you're going to oversimplify ideas in a way that's inaccurate at best and dangerous at worst. 100%, you're going to talk about. You're basically going to be offering. You're serving up the best thing since sliced bread. You only talk about the upsides of your pet idea. You don't admit any of the downsides in teacher mode, you can say, hey, here's something I learned and here's how it's complicated, but I think the pros outweigh the cons, and here's why. And I want to share that with you and have a dialogue about it. And that has unlocked for me, I guess, a level of comfort in saying, yeah, we do this in the classroom all the time. We talk about messy research. We say, this doesn't undermine the validity of it. There are limitations. The question is, do the strengths outweigh the limitations? And let's figure out how to weigh that. And I think that's part of what we ought to be doing more of. So I love this teacher idea. Where have you landed on it? How do you think about it fitting in? I mean, we are teachers, so, yeah.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

So, yeah. So I think it's probably next to scientists, how I wrestle with ideas the most, because I don't. Unlike prosecutor, unlike prosecutor, unlike politician, and unlike preacher, I can embrace the messiness as a teacher. It's exactly what you said. Like, my job is discomfort. My job is to push people into a stretch that's gonna leave stretch marks, you know, cognitive stretch marks. And so. So I think I'm at my best in the teacher. It's. It's something I've yet to weaponize. And so it. Because. And so, I don't know, I actually thought about it more that I don't think it is a mode. I think it's an identity which, in order to remain sacred, cannot be subjected to the other modes, to the preacher. You know, I have to stay scientist.

[Brene Brown]

So that's good. That's very good. You know, as. As I listen to you talk about it, I never thought about it this way before, but I think that it's what teacher mode is, what saves you

[Cassidy Hubbard]

from moralizing a hundred percent, 100%.

[Brene Brown]

And I think that works in part because your style of teaching is very Socratic. You are not a sage on the stage. When you teach, you think about, how do I bring learners along with me? And you also think about what can I learn from my students? And that forces a level of openness that wouldn't exist otherwise.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, I always feel like my students get ripped off because I learn so much more. I should be paying them because I always learn so much more than I teach. But, yeah, I think since I made this shift a couple of months ago, when I was really dealing with some hard stuff at work, into thinking about these modes as my armor, I've added them to my like even in my coaching, we talk about them as armor. And so it's how I self protect.

[Brene Brown]

It's, it's such a helpful lens. And you know, I'm just thinking about how I use scientist mode as armor sometimes, which is, which is not like, I mostly think about the upsides of scientist mode, covered a bunch of evidence and think again. That just randomly assigning leaders to learn to think like scientists improve their decision. It improves their decisions because they're quicker to pivot away from bad ideas and test better ones. And being fast to admit they're wrong makes it easier to figure out how to get it right. And that seems like a good thing. But for me, scientist mode is armor to avoid having to build systems and processes that might constrain me and might limit my autonomy and might prevent me, I fear, from thinking again, ironically. And I'm like, no, no, I want to keep testing hypotheses. I don't want to get too attached to anything. But the reality is we can't do that all the time. And so I've tried to reserve scientist mode for. I've got to really invest in that. We talked about this when we were talking about strong ground, I think in decisions that are highly consequential and irreversible, that's when I have to go into scientist mode right away. And that's where it's necessary. But if you're dealing with the lower stakes or easier to undo decision, I'm less worried about. Have we rigorously tested the hypothesis? Have we considered all alternatives? Have we run every experiment that we could? And I think I've frustrated you a little bit by doing this because I want to look at a hundred podcast titles at least before we decide we're excited about the Curiosity Shop. I want to ab test whether we should have the word the in the title or whether it should just be Curiosity Shop. I want to look at a million design options and try to figure out the right logo and you fall in love with one, or maybe you bounce between a few different options and then you're good to go. Yeah, that's armor for me on unimportant decisions and it's learning on important ones.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I mean, that's a big insight. I think if everyone listening right now took a few minutes to think about, here are four ways of being what's happening for me when I slip into these and where are they when and where are they strengths and when or where are they? Like kind of the worst of me because I'm in fear. I Think it's a really interesting exercise. I also think the styles are contagious, and I think it's why when someone starts politicking in a team meeting, you can see other people come out of the more productive mode and start doing the same thing. They're very. Because armor can be contagious. Perfectionism, different ways that we protect ourselves. I do want to. We're at time, but I. Oh, go, go, go, go, please.

[Brene Brown]

No, no. I just. A really specific example of that that I see all the time. Somebody checks in with you before a meeting or after a meeting, and all of a sudden you realize, well, I have to have the pre meeting and post meeting to have influence. And then what gets said in the meeting becomes meaningless. Meaningless because everybody's politicking by having the conversations behind closed doors and trying to lobby for what's going to serve them.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Yeah, for sure. And that the contagion, it becomes systemic just like, oh, this is how we do business. And that shit is. Will eat you alive. You gave a great example on the last podcast of what show to see what?

[Brene Brown]

Pluribus.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Pluribus. To see. Kind of.

[Brene Brown]

To see invisible armies stuck in the worst version of. Yeah. Of the worst version of groupthink and group talk that I could imagine.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I'm gonna share a TV show where I literally rewatched one. I. I've binged. I've binged all three seasons. It's one of the smartest shows I've ever seen. I love it. The Diplomat.

[Brene Brown]

Haven't seen it.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Oh, my God. On Netflix with Keri Russell. It's so. It's so. Alison Janney's in it now. It's just the cliffhanger from season one to two. I was like, wow, someone can ride a cliffhanger. The cliffhanger between season two and three. I was like, this is the best. This may be the best cliffhanger I've seen in TV history. And then. Yeah, I mean, it's just. Yeah, no, it is. It is a big claim. I had goosebumps. I rewatched it 20 times. Just the ending. Cause it was so incredible. But I rewatched episode four in this last season with your model in front of me. And it's such an interesting. It's so interesting to watch. We have some of the West Wing writers on it, and so it's just smart. It's fast, it's dialogue heavy. It's intricate. It's just. But I really watched that show thinking, oh, my God, they're politicking. They're Just, oh, God, this guy is such a preacher. He's in such preacher mode right now. But I used it because you can watch them picking these modes up and putting them on and then peeling them off and putting the next one on. You should clip it when you teach. I'm gonna teach this. I'm gonna actually teach it in an MBA class. I wanna teach your Think Again piece and I'm gonna use CL show to teach it.

[Brene Brown]

Wow. Okay. I'm moving it up in my queue. I have to finish Daredevil, Born Again, and Fringe, and then Diplomat will be next.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

I haven't even heard of the other two shows.

[Brene Brown]

You don't watch Marvel or dc, do you?

[Cassidy Hubbard]

No, I'm not in that universe. Okay, got it.

[Brene Brown]

That one won't help you. And Fringe is going back. It's Post Alias and Lost. A great Bad robot. Sci Fi.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

We would have such a hard time finding shows to watch together.

[Brene Brown]

I think the Diplomat sounds like good overlap in our tiny, tiny center ven.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

In our center ven. Like political thrillers that are really smart.

[Brene Brown]

That and sports, comedy, drama. Ted Lasso.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Oh, Ted Lasso. I almost wore my Richmond AFC yesterday. I have a sweatshirt. People are like, I've never heard of them. Like, they're fictional, but they're great. All right, I will see you next week. I am going to be mindful going into the week between this and our next recording to watch my mode of operation and be very clear. When I'm in collaborative decision making with people, let them know I'm in the bouts.

[Brene Brown]

I think just making that explicit and even introducing people to the fact that there is a bounce is great. And I think my. I never had that concept before. And I think my takeaway is I need to do a little more bouncing.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

Let's do it. I like it. I'll be sitting in the front yard of whatever house we're looking at, smelling the grass, trying to see, can I see myself here? All right, thanks, Adam.

[Brene Brown]

Thank you.

[Cassidy Hubbard]

The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research group. And granted, per productions, you can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

[Brene Brown]

We're part of the Vox Media podcast network. Discover more award winning shows@podcast voxmedia.com.