Podcast Summary: Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené and Adam Grant on Empathy vs. Enmeshment
Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Adam Grant
Series: Strong Ground Special

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant tackle the complex territory explored in Brené’s book Strong Ground, focusing on the nuances of empathy, compassion, and enmeshment—especially in an age of instability and information overload. With research-driven arguments and vulnerable personal stories, Brené and Adam discuss the distinctions between cognitive and affective empathy, the dangers of enmeshment, and the impact of media consumption on our ability to remain compassionate without losing ourselves. The episode is both intellectually rigorous and deeply personal, with memorable metaphors and moments of genuine disagreement and growth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Empathy Under Attack

• Context: Adam opens by noting a societal decline in empathy, referencing recent public criticisms of empathy from various ideological sides.
• Brené: Notes that some “far right conservative churches” and public figures like Elon Musk have labeled empathy as dangerous ([01:30–01:50]).
  • Quote: “...I think Elon Musk said that it was going to be the end of Western civilization, that empathy was the primary driver of our civilization.” – Brené ([01:50])

Takeaway

• Brené observes that empathy is inconvenient for those who use power over others and underlines that conversations around empathy have become politicized.

2. Empathy vs. Compassion: The Scholarly Debate

• Distinction:

  • Affective (emotional) empathy: Feeling others’ feelings, which can result in emotional overload and withdrawal.
  • Cognitive empathy: Understanding and acknowledging another person’s experience without over-identifying.
  • Compassion: Witnessing suffering and taking action to help ([04:40–05:45], [08:29]).

• Adam: References Paul Bloom’s research, which critiques affective empathy and advocates for compassion and cognitive empathy:

  • Quote: “I do not need to feel your feelings or know exactly what it’s like to be in your shoes in order to care about your feelings and want to alleviate your suffering.” – Adam ([05:27])

• Brené’s Stance: Challenges the notion that empathy and compassion are interchangeable:

  • Quote: “Empathy and compassion in my research, I think, are very different things. And I think we actually need both.” – Brené ([05:53])

Takeaway

• Both argue that affective empathy can be harmful if unchecked, while cognitive empathy plus compassion offers a healthier, more sustainable path.

3. Redefining Empathy & The “Enmeshment” Problem

• Adam’s Proposal: Suggests rebranding ‘cognitive empathy’ as ‘perspective-taking’ for clarity ([10:54-11:18]).
• Brené’s Counter: Wants to reclaim the term 'empathy' and proposes calling unhealthy affective empathy ‘enmeshment’ ([12:00–12:13]):
  • Quote: “Let’s call this, let’s call affective empathy enmeshment.” – Brené ([12:00])

Metaphor & Teaching Tool

• Brené shares her teaching metaphor:
  • Quote: “If you do not know where you end and someone else begins, you are not practicing empathy. You’re in enmeshment.” ([13:20])
  • Empathy means staying whole and present—not jumping in someone’s metaphorical hole of suffering. ([13:45])

Takeaway

• Enmeshment blurs boundaries and leads to burnout and secondary trauma; true empathy means engaging with but not becoming subsumed by another’s pain.

4. Personal Stories of Enmeshment & Boundaries

• Brené’s Experience:
  • Shares her near-breakdown after working with trauma survivors and how her therapist helped her see the difference between empathy and enmeshment ([16:00–19:45]).
    • Quote: “You cannot work from a place of empathy when you take on the suffering of other people … your empathy has not gotten you in trouble. Your overidentification and secondary trauma has got you in trouble.” ([18:50])
  • Her husband, a pediatrician, explains his approach:
    • Quote: “I walk up to the fence, I lean over the fence, I embrace, I hug, I often cry with, but I have a job in that room and I never walk through the gate because when I become that parent, I can no longer help that parent.” ([19:40])

Takeaway

• Personal boundaries are essential for maintaining compassionate action without succumbing to emotional collapse.

5. Media Consumption, Empathy Fatigue, and Processing the World

• Both Adam and Brené share: They avoid watching news and instead read, to protect themselves from emotional overload ([20:42–22:51]).
  • Quote (Adam): “I don’t want to get enmeshed in the melodrama of other people’s suffering, but I want to think about it … which is much easier to do when reading than watching.” ([21:18])
  • Quote (Brené): “When I read, I am much more likely to understand how my daily decisions are impacting other people ... When I watch, my nervous system becomes so overwhelmed I just shut it down.” ([22:00])

Takeaway

• Processing news through reading sustains perspective and encourages thoughtful, ethical action, whereas visual saturation drives numbing and disengagement.

6. “Just World Theory,” Dehumanization, and the Limits of Numbing

• Just World Theory:

  • People protect themselves from overwhelming empathy by believing “bad things only happen to bad people” ([24:20–26:39]).
  • Research shows even minor negative information about a victim changes how we perceive their suffering and their deservingness.

• Dehumanization:

  • Repeated, graphic imagery and certain language can subtly erode compassion and foster dehumanization.

Takeaway

• Numbing via overexposure to suffering makes us more likely to judge and less inclined to help—a cycle exacerbated by modern media.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My academic response would be, fuck you.” – Brené, about those trying to eliminate empathy to maintain power ([03:36])
• “If you do not know where you end and someone else begins, you are not practicing empathy. You’re in enmeshment.” – Brené ([13:20])
• “When I have to tell a parent something heart wrenching ... I walk up to the fence ... but I never walk through the gate because when I become that parent, I can no longer help that parent.” – Steve Brown, relayed by Brené ([19:40])
• “The moral of the story is: nuance matters … There’s different types of empathy, enmeshment—not good.” – Brené ([27:30])
• “Enmeshment gives me an exit ramp from accountability ... when I know where I end and you begin, then I can more accurately assess how my decisions are affecting your suffering.” – Brené ([29:47])

Key Timestamps

• [01:12] – Empathy under attack: social and political context
• [05:45] – Brené and Adam debate empathy vs. compassion
• [12:00] – Rebranding the terms: empathy, enmeshment, and perspective-taking
• [13:45] – Brené’s teaching metaphor: “the hole”
• [16:00–19:45] – Brené’s personal story of secondary trauma and boundaries
• [20:42–22:51] – Media consumption, emotional overload, and news
• [24:20–26:39] – Just World Theory and dehumanization
• [27:30–29:47] – Final insights and nuanced conclusions

Conclusion & Main Takeaways

• Empathy isn’t bad—enmeshment is. There’s a vital distinction between feeling with others (without losing oneself) and being so consumed by others’ feelings that you can no longer act.
• Boundaries matter. Empathy requires knowing where you end and another person begins. Enmeshment leads to burnout and less effectiveness.
• Media matters. Curating how we process suffering—through reading rather than watching—can help maintain empathy and support healthy engagement without overload.
• Nuance matters. In debates about empathy in society, simplistic arguments miss vital distinctions that are foundational for both leadership and humanity.