Dare to Lead with Brené Brown
Episode: Brené and Adam Grant on Finding Our Strong Ground
Release Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Adam Grant
Podcast Network: Vox Media
Episode Overview
In this kickoff episode of a special six-part series, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the big ideas behind Brené’s new book, Strong Ground. They discuss what it means to remain “grounded”—both physically and in one’s values—in times of instability and complexity. The conversation explores how boldness and vulnerability are critical to effective leadership, and they dissect the power of personal and organizational values, the dangers of leading by fear, and the subtle armor of routines versus adaptability. The tone is lively, personal, and at times playfully contentious, revealing both Brené and Adam’s ongoing learning and willingness to challenge each other.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why “Strong Ground”? The Origin Story
[03:37]
- Brené opens by sharing how a pickleball injury became the central metaphor for her book: physically, her core muscles had atrophied, forcing compensatory movement and injury, until her trainer, Tony, insisted that she “find the ground.”
- This personal revelation becomes a mirror for organizations and leaders who operate without foundational “core values.”
- Quote (Brené, 08:01):
“The more I just saw this metaphor unfolding of the work you and I both do, organizations, no core leaders, no core... building on dysfunction and getting hurt all the time. And so a metaphor was born along with my lats.”
Memorable Moment [08:14]:
Adam is struck by the parallel between strengthening the body and strengthening organizations:
“What it takes to strengthen an organization, and in particular for leaders to be strong, is exactly the same.”
2. Defining “Strong Ground”—Physical to Emotional Values
[09:55]
- The “strong ground” is not just physical but relates to being firmly rooted in one’s values and beliefs.
- Brené recounts how “finding the ground” became a grounding mantra both in the gym and in leadership situations:
- In leadership, “finding the ground” means acting from values rather than from fear.
- Quote (Brené, 12:09):
“That’s how I want to lead... I want to be flexible and agile and mobile, but grounded. Does that make sense?”
3. Identifying and Operationalizing Core Values
[13:29 – 22:49]
- The Dare to Lead process: From a list of 100 values, leaders are asked to select just two, mirroring research that shows high-performing leaders act from clarity about their core principles.
- People often resist narrowing their values, feeling guilty or attached to more than two.
- Adam agrees that values should not be split between personal and professional.
(Adam, 15:33): “Your values are your guiding principles.... The idea that we’re going to check our values at the office door or become a different person when we leave work, to me, is failing to understand what it means to be grounded.”
- Organizational values fail when they are vague (“Soaring Eagle posters”) rather than embedded in observable, accountable behaviors.
- Only about 10% of organizations Brené has seen actually operationalize values into lived behaviors.
- Critical Point: Leaders must be willing to uphold values—including at the cost of short-term performance or letting go of high performers who violate values.
Notable Exchange:
- Brené:
(22:50) “If you have a high performer who delivers a ton of revenue... are you willing to take the revenue hit to create a winning culture?”
- Adam:
(22:53) “I think you probably get a lot of people sort of hedging ... can’t we try to reform the person first?”
4. Leadership, Fear, and the Dangers of “Power Over”
[23:37 – 31:18]
- Many leaders conflate being “demanding” with being “demeaning.”
(Adam, 23:41): “So many leaders confuse being demanding with being demeaning.”
- Fear-based leadership is critiqued as unsustainable:
(Brené, 24:19): “The thing about demeaning leadership behavior... it’s about using fear to lead. And fear has a very short shelf life.”
- Leaders who operate this way often have personal struggles and lack alternative skillsets.
- Coaching is suggested as vital; leaders, like athletes, should have coaches to develop.
- Ultimately, change won’t happen if senior leaders aren’t truly willing to hold people accountable beyond profit.
5. Boldness, Paradox, and the False Choice Between Performance and Culture
[32:00]
- Adam reads a favorite quote from the book (p.21):
“If this feels like your ROI dilemma, I suggest you back away slowly from the quarter zipped consultant with the 200 slide deck. Fully alive, well supported and connected, human beings are unstoppable.”
- Brené’s perspective: The foundation of high performance is wholehearted, well-connected humans—strong ground is both stabilizing and a springboard for adaptability amid change.
- Leaders must learn to “straddle paradox” and end false dichotomies (performance vs. culture, growth vs. caring).
- The skills to do this are explicitly teachable, but require deep, sustained work—often years.
6. Local Impact: Leading When Leaders Above Don’t Get It
[34:55 – 37:41]
- Listeners may wonder: What if my leaders don’t support this work?
- Brené’s answer: Even individuals on teams without leadership support can use these practices to meaningfully improve their own experience and, over time, will likely become leaders themselves.
- Adam references research showing only about a quarter of people are needed to start a critical mass for culture change.
7. Living Your Values: Comfort, Discomfort, and Contentment
[40:06 – 47:14]
- Adam asks Brené to share how she operationalizes her two values—courage and faith—in real life.
- Brené: Leadership as service, prioritizing being aligned with values over being liked or comfortable.
- Discomfort has two forms:
- Discomfort from violating values = resentment, fear-based behavior.
- Value-based discomfort = humility, discipline, and a sense of contentment after the fact.
- Quote (Brené, 44:29):
“The discipline for me is the me right now choosing courage or faith and discomfort as a commitment to the me in an hour who will feel content and whole... I don’t live in discomfort, but I’m willing to be in it to do what I think is the right thing.”
Example [45:13]:
Brené’s real-life boundary-setting in meetings, and in her personal life regarding sobriety, as demonstrations.
- Adam and Brené then explore Adam’s values: generosity, excellence, and integrity. They discuss the overlap and hierarchy between excellence and integrity, landing on integrity as foundational.
8. Routine, Adaptability, and the “Near Enemy” Concept
[51:21 – 56:55]
- Adam raises the paradox: routines and grounding are stabilizing, but can also turn rigid.
- Brené introduces the Buddhist idea of the "near enemy"—the version of a virtue that subtly undermines it:
- Discipline’s near enemy is rigidity.
- Quote (Brené, 53:38):
“Rigidity masquerades as discipline... when you start to control the environment in order to protect yourself, that becomes rigidity.”
- They discuss disciplined humility in coaching and the undervalued role of discipline in today’s leadership culture.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- [03:01] Adam: “The first surprise for me... I never thought there would be a tush push in a Brené Brown book.”
- [10:41] Brené: "Find your ground. So I kind of looked at the floor, and he said, push into it.... And then from there, all things became possible. And it was shocking to me."
- [23:41] Adam: “So many leaders confuse being demanding with being demeaning.”
- [24:19] Brené: “The thing about demeaning leadership behavior is ... it’s about using fear to lead. And fear has a very short shelf life.”
- [32:00] Adam (reading Brené’s book): “If this feels like your ROI dilemma, I suggest you back away slowly from the quarter zipped consultant with the 200 slide deck.”
- [44:29] Brené: "I feel a very strong sense of contentment, like I’m at peace. ... I feel solid."
- [53:34] Brené: "The near enemy of discipline is rigidity."
- [56:55] Brene: "It’s disciplined humility. It’s just like no one’s fearless.... People can be disciplined in their courage, discipline in their daring, you know, and so I think we underestimate discipline because we see none of it in the culture today."
Segment Timestamps
- 01:00 – Series introduction, Adam joins
- 03:37 – Strong Ground origin story: pickleball and physical metaphors
- 09:55 – Finding your ground, physical and metaphorical
- 13:29 – How to identify and operationalize values
- 19:18 – Research on leaders choosing only 1–2 core values
- 22:50 – The problem with organizational values as empty statements
- 23:41 – Being demanding vs. being demeaning; problems of fear-based leadership
- 31:18 – The skillset for leading with both courage and high performance
- 32:00 – Myth-busting: performance vs. culture as a false dichotomy
- 34:55 – What to do when leaders above are not on board
- 40:06 – Brené and Adam discuss operationalizing personal values
- 44:29 – The experience of contentment when acting in alignment with values
- 51:21 – The paradox of discipline vs. rigidity; routines as both asset and risk
- 56:55 – Disciplined humility, discipline in leadership, unpopular virtues today
Additional Themes
- Critical mass for cultural change: You don’t need everyone—just 25% to tip the system.
- Near and far enemies: Buddhist concept to distinguish real virtue from its masqueraders.
- Personal transformation: Even without institutional support, individual leaders can make powerful change.
Tone and Language
The episode is rich with story, metaphor, and a mix of playful ribbing and deep inquiry:
- Brené is candid, self-effacing, and sometimes irreverent (“permit requested and granted” for using “writhing pain”).
- Adam brings both researcher’s clarity and quick humor, questioning and nudging Brené (and the audience) to deeper analysis.
This episode sets the foundation for the rest of the series, unpacking what it takes to lead with boldness, vulnerability, and sustained values—even in turbulent times. An essential listen for those who want practical strategies and profound insight into cultivating “strong ground” in leadership and life.