Brene Brown (2:31)

I would do 12 episodes with you, Adam Grant.

Adam Grant (2:33)

Well, be careful what you wish for.

Brene Brown (2:35)

I am going to put it on my wish list. I'm closing my eyes, making my wish. All right, let's jump in. I was really nervous about talking because we haven't talked about it. And you've read the first chapter, gave me some notes on it. As you can see, I incorporated all of your notes except for one, because you said, is it really killing you? Is that hyperbole? And I was like, no, it's hyperbole. I'm gonna keep it.

Adam Grant (3:01)

That's fair. Sometimes I take things too literally, I have to tell you. So the first surprise for me was after I got past the intro, which I'd read before. I never thought there would be a tush push in a Brene Brown book. Ever. Did not see that coming.

Brene Brown (3:18)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (3:18)

I'm like, wait, is this. Is this. Did you do that for me? Because we live in Philly and root for the Eagles.

Brene Brown (3:24)

I'm a Birds fan.

Adam Grant (3:25)

There we go.

Brene Brown (3:26)

It's so. So let's just talk about this right off the bat. I am not afraid of a sports metaphor.

Adam Grant (3:31)

I've noticed.

Brene Brown (3:32)

Yeah. And I even. I even have to write a whole chapter letting people know why I'm using sports metaphors. And I will tell you that I've had some criticism in the past around using too many of them. And I took that criticism as you can use it, but you need to explain it, not, they should go away. So I try to explain the sport and, you know, and I'll do anything, you know, I'll talk about cricket. I'll be on the pitch in, you know, Premier League. I'll do volleyball. But I'm. I love a sports metaphor. How are you feeling about the sports metaphors?

Adam Grant (4:06)

Well, I love them as a sports fan, but I also think they're really applicable to the topic and they're fitting throughout the book because the book starts with you having a not so pleasant sports experience. So I feel like we should begin there.

Brene Brown (4:21)

You want to start there? Go ahead. You ask me anything.

Adam Grant (4:25)

Well, I was so surprised that a Brene Brown book on leadership started with you suffering with an athletic trainer.

Brene Brown (4:35)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (4:35)

And I want to hear more about that.

Brene Brown (4:37)

Okay. So the whole idea of strong ground came from. And this is where you're. People are going to be on board with this or it's going to piss people off. I am a huge pickleball player. I play six times a week, two hours a day. I prioritize it with family time and connection. It's like, for me, it's being in fit, spirit. Spiritual condition, for me, involves playing pickleball. And I think the Reason is because I was an athlete. I grew up as a swimmer, then I played tennis for 30 years. And I never thought that I would be this age playing a physical sport and feeling competitive again, like training, drilling, having to go back into kind of the psychology of sport, which is one of my biggest barriers actually. And so it opens up with me talking about. It might even be my first, my favorite first sentence of any book I've ever written, which is, let me see, writers should be required to apply for a permit if they want to use the word writhe because it's such a good metaphorical word. Like I was writhing in uncertainty. But this story is. I was on the court, I was relatively new to pickleball. If you come from tennis, you're gonna suck for at least 10 to 12 games. I had been eyeing, I always liked to play up. I had been eyeing these people that were better than me. And I was like, one day I'm gonna get, they're gonna ask me to play one day. And they asked me to play. And I was first serve, you know, 002, first score. And I served. And I don't know what I did, but I could not get off the ground. I was incapacitated and in more pain. Writhing pain. Permit requested and granted. Writhing pain. And it's the story of healing from that injury. Hearing some really hard news that I was using that I had a. Had you ever heard of that before? A compensatory injury?

Adam Grant (6:50)

No.

Brene Brown (6:51)

Yeah, I had a compensatory injury, meaning the big muscles, my core, were non existent. So I was using inefficient muscle groups to compensate for no lats, no glutes and no stomach muscles. And if I wanted to play competitively, I would have to build the right muscles and use them if I didn't want to get hurt. And Tony, my trainer, is so hardcore. And the more he talked to me about agility and balance and mobility and stability and strength, not building on dysfunction because I just wanted to get in there and move heavy shit, you know, because I'm a very competitive person. And he was like, no, we're not going to do that. We're not going to build on dysfunction. We're going to figure out what's going on. The more I just saw this metaphor unfolding of the work you and I both do, organizations, no core leaders, no core. Using inefficient muscle groups to lead, to build strategy, building on dysfunction and getting hurt all the time. And so a metaphor was born along with my lats.

Adam Grant (8:14)

It's Such a powerful one. And, I mean, you're right. As you unfold told the story, I. I felt like reading it. You were describing workplaces and like. Wait, hold on a second. You're. You're talking about how to strengthen the human body. But what it takes to strengthen an organization, and in particular for leaders to be strong, is exactly the same.

Brene Brown (8:39)

Isn't that weird, though? Don't you think it's weird?

Adam Grant (8:41)

Yeah. It was such an interesting and unexpected parallel, and it made me curious about. Well, I feel like you should define strong ground and tell us what that looks like physically, but also socially, relationally.

Brene Brown (8:55)

Well, it was interesting because I was. I can't remember what exercise I was doing. There's two. I really did. I always think about you because you were like an NCAA diver, right? And so I figure you got big lats. Like, you're probably a lat guy. Like, my son is a water polo player. Lat guy. I couldn't find my lats. Like, I literally was doing this thing where you were holding something, you know, and you're pulling it down, and I'm like, this really hurts. My neck and my shoulders. And he's like, Cause you're not supposed to be using those. Use your lats, Brown. And at some point, he said. He looked at me and the same thing was happening. When I would throw a really heavy medicine ball against the wall, I'd say, God, this really hurts. And he's like, you're not using your core at all. And so one day he looked at me when I was doing my lat pulldowns, and he said, find the ground. And I looked down at the floor and he said, no, not the floor, the ground. Find your ground. And he was kind. I love him, but he was kind of like being a dick in a way. Cause he was like. He was not relenting at all. And usually I can manipulate people to, you know, not do the exercises I don't wanna do and stuff. And so he was like, find the ground. So I kind of looked at the floor, and he said, push into it with your feet. All of your feet. Put, you know, feet hip distance apart. Bend your knees, push into the ground. Find the ground. And then all of a sudden, he said, use your body and your mind. And I was like, okay. So I just. I thought about. I told my brain to find my feet, and then told my feet to find the ground. And I kind of, I guess, ended up in with. I guess, what you would call an athletic stance. Is that what you would call it? You Know, knees bent, pushing in to the ground. And then from there, all things became possible. And it was shocking to me. So my mantra at the gym became strong ground. Brene actually Brown, because that's what he calls me. Strong ground, Brown. Strong ground. And so I started using it. The first difficult conversation I had to have as a leader, I literally stood up before the person walked in my office and just said, strong ground. But I wasn't finding my lats. I was trying to find my values. Like, I was trying to dig into my values and work from a place of strength. And what was interesting, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, is he said, I want you to stand like you normally stand when I ask you to do these exercises or throw the ball. And I was standing there and he took both of his hands and just pushed my shoulders and I fell backwards. And then he said, find your ground. I found the ground. He pushed and I didn't move at all. And that's how I want to lead. That's how I want to stay above the line in my work. That's how I want to be in my values. I want to be flexible and agile and mobile, but grounded. Does that make sense?

Adam Grant (12:12)

Oh, it makes a ton of sense. And I'm glad you clarified that you were looking for your values because I was imagining you going into this difficult conversation in an athletic stance.

Brene Brown (12:24)

Bring it.

Adam Grant (12:25)

No, brace yourself.

Brene Brown (12:27)

Brace yourself. Yeah, I'm going to push you against the wall if you move. We've got a problem. No, no, just. I was recently working with a college football team and they have four big values, you know, discipline, commitment, accountability. And I asked them what it would be, what it would mean for the team if everyone on the team was standing in athletic stance in those values every day, in class, out of class, on the field. What does that mean? And one of the kids just looked up and said, unstoppable, you know? And so to me, strong ground. It started as building strength physically, but now I think it's about spiritual, cognitive and emotional strength for me.

Adam Grant (13:22)

So let's talk about then what it looks like to become grounded in your values. First of all, how do you figure out what your values are?

Brene Brown (13:29)

We, I love the exercise we do in Dear to lead transformation. So we give people, it's really interesting. We get. I am dying to ask you about this. Okay, yay. We give people a list of, I don't know, maybe a hundred values and we ask them to pick two because we reverse engineered that from our research and found that the majority of leaders that we've talked to can reference very quickly one or two key values. So people push back like crazy. They want 20 of them, and then they feel bad if they don't circle family as one. It's like this whole thing, and you can predict it every time. And so what I've started doing when I facilitate the work is I say circle up to 20, and then what are the two values where every single thing on this page that you've circled are forged, you know, and it's really emotional for people because they'll say, I wanted family to be one of my two values, but really it's integrity that allows me to choose my family over another late night of work or another weekend working. So we really. And then we start to operationalize them. Like, what are the indicator lights that go off when you're out of them? What does it feel like to be in them? Tell us a specific experience of when you were in it and what it felt like. What did your body feel like when you're operating outside of it? So we do a really deep dive. I'm curious about this question for you. One of the big questions we get when we do this exercise is, are you talking about my personal values or my professional values? I operate from the belief, you've got one set. What is your thought?

Adam Grant (15:30)

I'm with you there. That question doesn't compute for me.

Brene Brown (15:33)

Say more.

Adam Grant (15:34)

Your values are your guiding principles. They're what matter to you. And I think the prioritization could change a little bit personally to professionally. Uh, but if you're somebody who cares about excellence at work, you ought to care about excellence at home, too. Uh, if you're somebody who. Who stands for integrity in, you know, in your personal relationships, you ought to live by that in your professional relationships, too. And the idea that we're going to check our values at the office door or become a different person when we leave work, to me, is failing to understand what it means to be grounded in, you know, in a set of core principles.

Brene Brown (16:09)

What do you think drives that question?

Adam Grant (16:11)

Wait a minute. Hold on, Brene. Who do you think is in charge of this conversation? What are you trying to do here?

Brene Brown (16:15)

I mean, no shit me.

Adam Grant (16:18)

No, I'm asking the question.

Brene Brown (16:19)

No, but what do you think? Do you think it.

Adam Grant (16:22)

No, I have more questions for you.

Brene Brown (16:23)

No, do you think it's. Do you think that one of the things that drives that question is people have a hard time integrating their guiding principles, a harder time at work than at home, because they feel Less agency.

Adam Grant (16:43)

Oh, that's interesting. I can see that. I can definitely see that being a challenge for a lot of people. I also, I think, related to that, there's the additional issue that many people are in jobs that stifle their values.

Brene Brown (16:58)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (16:59)

They can't reconcile them and might be incompatible with what they stand for in their personal lives, but they can't get out. And so they. They feel trapped and. And unable to. To build a bridge between who I am and who I'm required to be in order to get a paycheck.

Brene Brown (17:18)

It's interesting because this comes up a lot about faith around faith. And my two values are courage and faith. But while I am a extreme supporter of separation of church and state at all levels, I don't have a hard time with my faith at work as a person who deeply believes in God for me, because it's just how I treat people. It's not what I espouse, which is actually how I express my faith outside of work as well. It's not the words, it's the deeds, it's the action and the fate. But I can see how you'd have to do a really deep excavation of what those values mean to you in order to live by them in an environment that seems almost hostile to them.

Adam Grant (18:13)

Well, this is one of the things you point out in the book is a lot of organizations have values that are basically empty statements that get plastered on a wall, and they haven't mapped them to what are the valued behaviors? What does it look like to uphold these values? What does it look like to violate these values? And how do I know whether my own daily actions are basically failing or succeeding when it comes to adhering to our core principles? Okay, so I have multiple questions for you on this. The first one is I'm struck by the fact that you. You're really pushing people to limit their values. And. And two, even goes farther than I. Than I typically have, which is to say. Oh. My colleague Drew Carton led some research showing that if organizations had more than about three or four values, they tended to struggle more because people didn't know what they all meant. They didn't agree on how to define them. That, you know, that took away from their ability to coordinate and get on the same page. And so I think the pruning exercise is really important. How did you get to 2?

Brene Brown (19:18)

We just reverse engineered it. So that was born out of the original study with 150 kind of high performance, strong culture leaders that we interviewed maybe 15 years ago. And when I Just said, what are your values? Not a single one had more than two, and some had one.

Adam Grant (19:37)

Wow.

Brene Brown (19:38)

So. And then when we poked on it and we pulled into it and said, are you saying that these are the only guiding principles you need? The answer was yes, because everything else, this is the fire through which everything else is tested. And so we just reverse engineered it. And it's interesting. Would you be surprised if I told you that about 10% of the organizations that I work in, and I've worked in hundreds at this point, about 10% of them have operationalized their values into behaviors that are observable and measurable?

Adam Grant (20:17)

I'm surprised it's even that many.

Brene Brown (20:19)

Oh, my God. Are you really so rare?

Adam Grant (20:22)

Yeah, so rare. But I want to know what that looks like when you've seen it done successfully. So you start out with one or two core principles, and then what?

Brene Brown (20:32)

At an organizational level, I don't worry about four or five. Anything more than five is, you know, what I tell people is it's better to have no organizational values than to have them and not have them operationalized. Because let's say courage is a value that you, you know, and all you have is a Soaring Eagle poster, you know, that says courage underneath it. Like, I don't even know what that means. But I. But if I report to you and you're like, hey, Brene, you're late again. You've missed three meetings this week. And I said, you know what? I'm really being brave. And I know that's an organizational value here. And I'm really trying to be courageous in my self care. And I've got mani pedis and, you know, and facials scheduled in the morning. And I feel like I'm living heavily into our, you know, Grant Brown Corp. Values. Well, what do you, you know, and so what it looks like is a value. So, for example, in our organization here, one of our values is courage. How that's operationalized is we talk to people. We do not talk about people. We create meetings where people can speak. We do not hold meetings after meetings. But something's coming up for me, and I have seen this done well actually in organizations. But here's what I think. Not leaders, but kind of C suite and C suite direct reports. Get scared about, if you're going to take the time to operationalize these values into observable, measurable behaviors and you're going to hold people accountable for them, are you willing to make them as important as KPIs and other performance metrics when it comes to Firing people, holding them accountable and their bonuses. So if you have a high performer who delivers a ton of revenue, but you've operationalized your values into behaviors and this person is outside of the behaviors, are you willing to take the revenue hit to create a winning culture?

Adam Grant (22:49)

I hope the answer is yes.

Brene Brown (22:50)

But what do you think the answer is?

Adam Grant (22:53)

I think you probably get a lot of people sort of hedging and saying, well, it depends how high the performance is. And, you know, can't we try to reform the person first?

Brene Brown (23:04)

Yeah, I think you can put the person in coaching and do that kind of stuff. But in the end, do you believe that you can drive performance and growth and come down very clearly that asshole behavior is not acceptable? And I think the answer is yes. I just don't think leaders have the skills to do it.

Adam Grant (23:31)

No, I don't either. I think that so many leaders confuse being demanding with being demeaning.

Brene Brown (23:37)

Oh, my God, say that again.

Adam Grant (23:41)

Wait, I don't know if I can repeat it in the same words. But I do see a lot of leaders who think, okay, I have to be tough, I have to be hard charging. I need to create accountability. And they cross the line from demanding to demeaning.

Brene Brown (23:56)

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly. That's so beautifully put. That's exactly right. And the thing about demeaning leadership behavior is basically, I think I'd be curious what you think boiled down to his essence. To me, it's about using fear to lead. And fear has a very short shelf life.

Adam Grant (24:18)

So well put.

Brene Brown (24:19)

You gotta get meaner and meaner. And we see that today because.

Adam Grant (24:25)

Wait, unpack that for me. Is the short shelf life because people can only stay in the. In the intense state of fear for so long, or is it because they adapt and you have to, you have to essentially intensify it in order to continue evoking the fear.

Brene Brown (24:42)

I think what we see around the use of power over and fear as a leadership tool is that people do both. They adapt and they just. You can't maintain that level of nervous system activity for that long. So in order to maintain power over as a leader, you need to engage in periodic bouts of cruelty to remind people what you're capable of.

Adam Grant (25:09)

Yeah, that tracks.

Swiped Hulu Ad Announcer (25:18)

This episode is brought to you by Swiped a Hulu original from 20th Century Studios. Meet the woman who made the first move, Switch. Starring Lily James as Whitney Wolfe, the visionary founder of Bumble. Through extraordinary grit and ingenuity, Whitney breaks into the male dominated tech industry and launches an innovative, globally lauded dating app, forever changing Dating Culture A Hulu original swiped streaming September 19th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

Miu Miu Fragrance Announcer (25:49)

Routine adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.

Adam Grant (26:18)

Okay, so talk to me about what you do when you encounter a leader who operates that way and you want to help them find their ground and shift. Where does that conversation begin? It sounds like it could be a rumble.

Brene Brown (26:33)

I do. We do like a rumble. I think for me, these happen in the context of a transformation. So I'm usually working pretty closely with the top senior leaders and if they say to me, we have a person who a lot of people want to transfer out of his or her unit all the time. There's, you know, there's. They're using shame as a management tool. They're high performing, then. I'm a huge believer in coaching. I'd be curious if you share that belief. I just feel like leaders are, they're, they're the only people in the world where high performance is expected and a coach is not normative. I mean, could you imagine like, could you imagine like putting your heart into, you know, the Eagles? And there's no coach on the sideline. Not. There's no, there's no head coach, there's no defense coach. There's no offensive. I mean, there's no coach. Like we, you know, and so I think coaching can be helpful. But I think the bottom line is this is the hardest thing to change if the senior leadership is not willing to hold people accountable. So I have a long conversation with those folks first and say I don't want to. This work is hard. It's a slog. It's personal for people. They got to do a lot of self awareness work. They've got zero metacognition skills. We're going to have to jump into some very difficult work that's going to become personal about three minutes. And so if you're telling me if the behavior doesn't change, this person's leaving, let's go. If you're telling me this person's staying no matter what, they bring in a lot of money. It'd be nice if they changed. I'm not interested in helping, just to be honest.

Adam Grant (28:30)

Yeah, no, I'd rather Not see you waste your time with people who are not willing to change.

Brene Brown (28:35)

But I think it's the vast minority of people, because I can tell you that. Let me see if I want to say this, if I think it's true. In my experience, which is limited but broad, I've not. I can't think of a single time I've come across someone who leads from power over, who makes the move from demanding to demeaning, as you would say, whose life outside of work is great. They're usually struggling with disrupted relationship with children, divorce or divorcing or partner issues again, because you don't check who you are at the door. And I don't see people return to a life where they're prioritizing humanity and love and connection and belonging after 5 o'. Clock. I just don't see that. So a lot of times people lead that way because it's the only skill set they have. That's the only tools they have.

Adam Grant (29:47)

Yeah, I can. I, as you're describing this, think of specific leaders that I've worked with that I've observed who didn't necessarily start out that way in their personal lives, but adopted the management by fear and shame as the. It's the. Well, it's the only way to get the results I want. And I look at that and think you are rationalizing aggression and using it as an excuse when in fact there are always multiple paths to the same end. And as you engage in that behavior more and more, it becomes more central to who you are and you can't shed it when you leave work and it starts to come home with you.

Brene Brown (30:31)

I think that's true. And I think maybe the heart of strong ground for me is the idea that driving growth and performance and leading from a wholehearted place, not mutually exclusive, but. But highly skilled work. Like when you see leaders that can do that, who can really get important and strategic work done, mission critical work done, and they have a team of people who care about each other and trust and respect each other, you are going to peel back an enormous skill set.

Adam Grant (31:18)

Well, this speaks to one of my favorite parts of the book.

Brene Brown (31:20)

Oh.

Adam Grant (31:22)

So I'm just gonna. I'm gonna quote you to you. I have to. I have to read this. I loved it so much. This is from page 21. You say the false dichotomy persists. That leaders can either invest in training and coaching specifically developed to increase performance, revenue and growth, or they can invest in culture, initiatives and coaching that result in more courageous, connected and collaborative human beings. If this feels like your ROI dilemma. I suggest you back away slowly from the quarter zipped consultant with the 200 slide deck. Fully alive, well supported and connected, human beings are unstoppable. Bam. Mic drop.

Brene Brown (32:00)

Okay, I could have hit it too hard on the quarter zip comment, but that was.

Adam Grant (32:07)

It was exactly the. The dose of sarcasm needed.

Brene Brown (32:11)

Oh, I know the quarter zips because I'm always jockeying for position with them in the one line for United. You know, it's. This is the whole part. Like, you know the subtitle of the book, the lessons of daring, the tenacity of paradox and the wisdom of the human spirit. Well respected, seen, heard, believed, well connected human beings in an organization is the organization's strong ground. That is both your stabilizing force in an organization and the platform from which you can have explosive change behavior and adaptability. And I'm not Chicken Little when it comes to technology. Like, I engage with all of it. I think there's some stuff that's great about AI, some things that are dangerous. It's like everything else, it's like fire. You can use it to stay alive and stay warm or you can burn down the barn. It just depends on the human application of it, right? But moving forward, the ability to straddle the tension of paradox and resolve that tension with a completely different solution that's presented in the paradox is the way forward in leadership. In my mind, it's not performance or culture. It's what do we need to build to straddle that tension that leaves us with performance and culture. It's not growth or caring. It's growth and caring. What do we need to do to straddle that paradox? And so when I started trying to uncover what kind of the knowledge, self awareness, skill sets were that allowed people to do those things, I was. I mean, you're one of the teachers in the book. There's five teachers in the book that you know whose work it needed. Your picture in the book, because it's more than just a quoted paragraph or, you know, a couple of quotes. It's like your ideas. Dan Pink's Sarah Lewis Ikopathia, Virginia Clark. I mean, these are central to my thinking in this. These are hard skills to develop. We do it in people, but it takes two years.

Adam Grant (34:55)

So what do I do if I'm working under leaders who don't get it? One of the things I kept thinking about in the early parts of the book is, yes, I'm on board with this, but there's not support above me. If I can I'm going to go find another place to work. If I can't, how do I survive?

Brene Brown (35:22)

One of the biggest lessons that I've taken away from doing this work, you know, we. We just kind of passed the. I think 160,000 people we've taken through dare to lead transformations in maybe 45 countries, is if you have the responsibility and gift of leading a team, this is going to be amazing for not just you, but for the people that you serve as a leader. If you're an individual on a team that's not doing this work, that doesn't have a leader on board, this work will still make a huge difference in your life and how you show up and how you go home and how you wake up and how you think about your work. And in our experience, when you start putting these things into practice, you will eventually be leading. Because to be able to demonstrate that I can get good strategic work done that's critical to our success and build a team around me that cares for each other and trusts each other. You may not be a leader there, but you will be a leader.

Adam Grant (36:47)

I think that's such a key point because even for senior leaders, it's very difficult to change the culture of a whole organization overnight. But we can all move the values and norms of the teams we're on.

Brene Brown (36:59)

I mean, that's it.

Adam Grant (37:00)

We all have local impact.

Brene Brown (37:01)

We all have local impact. And what's interesting is if I'm sitting down with the CEO and they're like, we're really thinking about this investment and a dare to lead transformation, what do I need to know that's scary? I'll say. I'm looking for a critical mass of individual people excited about doing hard work, having brave conversations, and being good, trustworthy people. I just need a critical mass of individuals. I don't need everyone to come along, and I'm not interested in everyone coming along. So if you need everyone to come along, this will be a difficult transformation because you will lose 30% of your people.

Adam Grant (37:41)

This reminds me of some research by Damon Sentola suggesting that you only need about a quarter of people to be on board with a change in order to build momentum behind it.

Brene Brown (37:50)

That's true.

Adam Grant (37:50)

And so critical mass is not as many people as I once thought it was. It's not three quarters. It's not half.

Brene Brown (37:57)

No, it's not. And it's because it's especially. You know, I think about another sports analogy which actually did not work for me, but the first time I did a triathlon, they said, you know, all you need to do is to be able to finish two thirds of each part before you go to the race, because the momentum of the race will carry you. Now that could have been true, but I trained in Houston and the triathlon was in Austin in the hills. I didn't even have like, I didn't even have multiple speeds on my bike. I had a bike like with a fricking basket. But I do think some of that principle works that like, you don't probably need. I'd be curious to dig into that research more. You probably don't need as many people because change is a unit in the relationship itself. It carries a lot of momentum, especially if you're moving towards something great.

Adam Grant (39:01)

Foreign.

Thumbtack Announcer (39:06)

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. When your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again. You fix the problem. So why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use indeed sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply.

Lowe's Announcer (39:36)

Lowes knows how to help make your home holiday ready for less. Get select Style Selections vinyl flooring for just $1.99 per square foot and have it installed before the festivities begin. Our team can help you every step of the way. See a Lowe's Red Best Associate or visit Lowe's design.com holidayinstall to get started. Lowe's we help you save basic Install only Date restrictions apply. Subject to availability. Installed by independent contractors. See Associate for details. Contiguous us only I'd love to hear.

Adam Grant (40:06)

How you've operationalized your values in your life. So you told us that your two are courage and faith and you gave us a little bit of a taste of faith being about deeds, not words. What are, what are the key behaviors for you? For both of those values.

Brene Brown (40:27)

I think the place where they come together and create like just again. The biggest kind of super cycle for.

Adam Grant (40:38)

Me is.

Brene Brown (40:43)

Choosing to do what I believe is right and choosing to be brave over being comfortable. And I don't think when I don't think you have to really pervert and bend faith. For me, if you're a faith driven person to have a life of comfort because you're constantly challenging yourself around and I think that's being courageous too. And so I think when I'm really operating highly in my values I 1 try to think of leadership as service and 2 I try and accept the fact that discomfort and being liked is not as important as being aligned with my values. Can I ask what your values are?

Adam Grant (41:51)

I'm having a hard time boiling it down to two. I was going to say I wanted three, but before I answer that, let me just follow up and ask you. So if feeling uncomfortable is part of you knowing that you're aligned with your values is comfort, then ever? Well, let me, let me ask this a little differently actually. You can't be uncomfortable all the time. And there's a form of comfort that signals to you I'm, I'm actually living by my values. What's the difference between good and bad discomfort and good and bad comfort? Or maybe good and bad are too evaluative. Maybe aligned comfort versus misaligned comfort and the same for discomfort because I've had a hard time parsing between those personally.

Brene Brown (42:40)

So I think this is a really great, a really important question. When I'm not, when I'm out of alignment with my values, the discomfort shows up as resentment for me. Resentment and under the line fear based behavior. When I am being uncomfortable and brave, it's a very embodied feeling and there's a lot of discipline and humility involved in it for me. So when I get big and boisterous and fake brave, alarm goes off for me when I'm kind of quiet. Humility and discipline just do the next right thing, even if it's small. And then for me, what it feels like when I do that is not comfort. And this is a word that's not very popular, but I think it's underestimated. I feel a very strong sense of contentment, like I'm at peace. Like nothing's, you know, the sound of a car door that slams when it's like a good heavy like 1979 Buick and the door slams and it's like doom. Like I feel like that as opposed to like a scrappy, halfway closed door. Like I feel solid.

Adam Grant (44:29)

And you can have that with discomfort.

Brene Brown (44:31)

I can, I can have. Well, the discipline for me is the me right now choosing courage or faith and discomfort as a commitment to the me in an hour who will feel content and whole. And so I don't live in discomfort, but I'm willing to be in it to do what I think is the right thing.

Adam Grant (45:07)

What, what does an example look like? I just want to bring this to life.

Brene Brown (45:13)

Setting a boundary. I set a lot of boundaries all the time. I think I was in a collection of meetings that were really hard to schedule. And in the meetings, a couple, you know, many of the A couple of the principals were in and out for two hours. They probably were in and out four times. And I just said the last time they came back, I said, I appreciate all the demands on everyone's time. I think if we're gonna schedule a meeting, my expectation is that everyone is here and focused on the meeting and not leaving three or four times in the meeting for 10 and 15 minute breaks. I don't think it makes for cohesive ideation and it feels disrespectful of my time.

Adam Grant (45:53)

Wow. A little uncomfortable, but clearly anchored to being courageous.

Brene Brown (46:01)

Yeah. And I'm not gonna get in the car and talk shit about them to other people and build up resentment.

Adam Grant (46:08)

No, we can talk shit about them on Dare to lead.

Brene Brown (46:13)

No, I'm not. I'm just.

Adam Grant (46:14)

Without attribution.

Brene Brown (46:15)

Without attribution. Yeah. I'm just going to ask for what I need, and if that feels. And if that feels unreasonable, that's okay. I'm just not going to schedule a two hour block of my time because my time is equally as valuable. So I think that's a, that's a. That's a real example. I mean, and I think that's in my personal life and my professional life all the time. Like, I'm sober. I've been sober for 28 years. Most of my friends know that every now and then a new person will come around and say, oh, you know, I'll bring the wine or a bottle of booze or something. And I'll say, that's great. Just know that. And I'm happy for you to do that. I won't be comfortable if you leave my house after you've been drinking. So if you want to come and have some wine or, you know, so much so that you shouldn't be driving, it'd be great if you could ride like that. That's just.

Adam Grant (47:06)

Love it.

Brene Brown (47:07)

Yeah. That's just me, you know, and. Yeah, but I'm not gonna let you escape. What do you think your values are?

Adam Grant (47:14)

Well, I was. I was coming up with generosity, excellence, integrity. Mm.

Brene Brown (47:21)

God, that just rings true for me when I think of you.

Adam Grant (47:26)

Thank you. I hope to live up to that one day, but I. I failed your test of reducing to 2, and then I thought, okay, do I drop excellence because that's in service of integrity and doing things as well as I can. It's part of following through on my commitments. Or do I drop integrity and say that's part of how I pursue excellence? Help me.

Brene Brown (47:52)

Which one's the fire? Which one? If you Looked at those three and said. And had to pick two that were the birthplace of all of them. I think generosity seems to stand on its own. You seem to not be struggling with that. And I just think of you. That's a word I think of you. I mean, I see you like that. I think the question becomes within, with integrity and excellence. If you're outside of your integrity, how does that feel in your body? If you deliver something that's not excellent, how does that feel in your body?

Adam Grant (48:35)

About equally bad.

Brene Brown (48:36)

About equally bad. And what would you.

Adam Grant (48:40)

I think integrity violations are rarer, but they hurt more.

Brene Brown (48:48)

Interesting. Then I think it comes down to kind of the birthplace question. You know, is there one in service of the other? Is excellence part of a collection of behaviors that define integrity for you? It becomes hierarchical for me, in a way. Does that make sense?

Adam Grant (49:12)

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's. That's how I think about it. Yeah. Excellence is one of. It's. It's part of the foundation of having integrity. For me, that's. That's clarifying. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know I was getting coaching as part of this series of conversations. This is a bonus.

Brene Brown (49:36)

I'll send you a bill.

Adam Grant (49:37)

Please do.

Brene Brown (49:38)

Oh, please. Yeah, I would. I'd be really curious. I'd probably have you draw out integrity and the collection of behaviors or even commitments that you would make to yourself and to the world to be in your integrity. And I'd have you draw out excellence. And I think in defining those with properties and categories, you would come to an answer pretty quickly.

Adam Grant (50:07)

Yeah, I think that's right. When I think about it, just in real time, I think, okay, the easy part of integrity is no lying, cheating, stealing. The harder part is what are the commitments that are non negotiable to follow through on and which ones are more flexible.

Brene Brown (50:26)

That's interesting. That's hard.

Adam Grant (50:30)

Yeah, because that is hard.

Brene Brown (50:31)

Because, you know, when I think about you, the other word that comes up for me and I don't know where it fits, is you are to me, if I think about one of the words that describes you is disciplined. And I. I'd be so curious if discipline is part of integrity for you.

Adam Grant (50:50)

I think it is. I think otherwise. Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's interesting. I. I feel like I have to work on being more undisciplined deliberately to. To make sure that I'm putting myself in uncomfortable situations and that.

Brene Brown (51:07)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (51:08)

I'm also not getting stuck in a sort of linear. Do things the way I've Always done them.

Brene Brown (51:13)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (51:15)

Repeat what's working version of life.

Brene Brown (51:21)

More to explore. That's interesting.

Adam Grant (51:24)

Well, I want to. We have a nice cliffhanger here. But I do want to ask you, just leaving this back to you. I felt a tension in the early parts of the book, and then I realized, oh, this is one of the paradoxes you're writing about that I'm supposed to get better at accepting and living with as opposed to wanting to solve. But there's. I feel there's a tension between adopting a set of routines to make sure that you have your strong ground and also being willing to break your routines so that you don't get trapped in the past. And I. I just wondered. I wondered, as I was. I was reading early on, how do you think about navigating that paradox?

Brene Brown (52:12)

I think. Are you familiar with the Buddhist concept of near enemy?

Adam Grant (52:18)

I've heard you talk about it, but I don't think I understand it well enough. There are near and far enemies. I know that.

Brene Brown (52:24)

Right. So you would say that, like, if compassion is the virtue, the far enemy is indifference. But the near enemy, the thing that kind of masquerades around like compassion but is actually dangerous would be pity. Right.

Adam Grant (52:47)

Oh, that's good.

Brene Brown (52:47)

Right. And so I would think that's very good. Yeah. So pity. And I think the same could be true. The virtue might be empathy. The far enemy is not caring about someone at all. But the near enemy to empathy is sympathy, not feeling with someone, but feeling sorry for them, because that puts you in a place of superiority. Right. When you talk about this paradox that you're talking about, sometimes the near enemy, the Buddhist frame of near enemy really helps me because I think the near enemy of discipline is rigidity.

Adam Grant (53:34)

Yes. Yes. Nailed it.

Brene Brown (53:38)

I think rigidity masquerades as discipline. But what you would find in the near enemy column is kind of ego protection stuff and discomfort protection. So I think discipline, when discipline fails to deliver agility and the capacity to reflect and change, it's no longer discipline.

Adam Grant (54:09)

Oh, I love this. Okay, so this is. This is making sense out of. I have a colleague who's a very. A very serious athlete, and I was. I don't know if I was appalled or just shell shocked to find out that he had a rule that there was no noise allowed in his house after 8pm that. That's. That's how you think you have to be in order to be an elite athlete. No. And he thought he was being disciplined. I think you've just reframed that as rigidity.

Brene Brown (54:45)

Yeah. I think that's rigidity and I think that's. I don't think that's discipline because I think discipline would mean, especially if you've got kids in the house, I think discipline would be. I need to develop a practice that increases my focus or increases whatever I'm trying to do after 8 o' clock that allows the human beings around me to be human beings. That's discipline. Yeah. When you start to control the environment in order to protect yourself, that becomes rigidity.

Adam Grant (55:24)

So well put.

Brene Brown (55:25)

Yeah. And that this is, I think this level of thinking, which is very new to me. Like, I just didn't like. It's very new to me and I needed a frame for it, which I think the near and close enemy frame was really helpful for me. But I think this is. And I've thought about a lot about discipline. I write a lot about it in the book because I had this interesting conversation with Raj Bennett, who heads up the Men in Blazers podcast, which is really the soccer, football, whatever you want to call it, Premier League podcast. And he's. He knows that I'm a big Liverpool fan, and so he. We did an interview on courage and discipline after Liverpool won the Premier League. And he asked me if I, Arnie Slott was an egoless coach. And I really had to think about that question, and I said, no, he's just disciplined in his humility. And to me, that's really. The discipline thing's really been an unlock for me.

Adam Grant (56:37)

That was one of my folded corner, one of my many folded corner pages. The idea that a coach who's incredibly ambitious but seems to be all about a team could still have an ego and just keep it in check or invest it in the right things.

Brene Brown (56:55)

Yeah, I mean, it's disciplined humility. It's just like no one's fearless. I mean, if you're fearless, you're dead, basically. Fear serves an important purpose. Right. But people can be disciplined in their courage, discipline in their daring, you know, and so I think we underestimate discipline because we see none of it in the culture today. Very little, very. Some individual great examples. But in the Zeitgeist, it's not discipline. Accountability are not popular right now.

Adam Grant (57:24)

Well, that is a great segue to our next conversation. I can't wait.

Brene Brown (57:28)

Adam Grant, thank you for your generosity.

Adam Grant (57:31)

Are you kidding? This is. This is such a treat for me.

Brene Brown (57:33)

To get to do this next session. I can't wait. Dare to Lead is produced by Brene Brown Education Research Group. Music is by the Sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to Lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows@podcasts.voxmedia.com.