Podcast Summary: Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené and Adam Grant on Rewarding Effort With Time
Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Adam Grant

Overview

This episode is the finale of a six-part special series accompanying Brené Brown’s book Strong Ground. In conversation with renowned organizational psychologist Adam Grant, Brené unpacks the challenges of rewarding effort — especially when outcomes fall short — in settings of high complexity and instability. The discussion dives deep into the nuances of coaching, prioritization, decision-making, and leadership communication, with both hosts sharing candid reflections and actionable insights for leaders and organizations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with Rewarding Effort Alone

• Adam’s NYT Op-Ed Origins ([02:31])

  • Adam describes how his experience as an MBA instructor led to his NYT op-ed “No, You Don’t Get an A for Effort.”
  • Students were upset their grades didn’t mirror their exertion. Adam notes:

    “We don’t grade effort, we grade excellence...I was really curious about why they expected to be rewarded for hard work alone as opposed to mastery.” ([02:52])

  • He traces the issue to a misapplication of Carol Dweck’s “growth mindset,” highlighting that praising only effort—disconnected from results—can reinforce ineffective strategies.

• Brené’s Perspective on Rewarding Effort

  • Brené agrees with Adam but rejects a binary approach:

    “If I see you really busting your ass ... and the ball’s not leaving the 50 yard line ... I’m not going to call that a touchdown ... [but] I am going to reward you with my time ... let’s talk about why the ball’s not moving.” ([05:24]-[08:04])

  • She identifies the easy (but less effective) solutions as either over-rewarding or ignoring effort.

• Coaching versus Judging

  • Adam concurs:

    “You’re just a judge, not a coach.” ([08:04])
    “If somebody’s putting in the energy and they’re not getting the result, then that’s the ideal moment for coaching.” ([08:34])

2. Effort, Prioritization, and Organizational Clarity

• The Crisis of Prioritization

  • Brené observes that the biggest performance obstacle for leaders is not lack of effort, but lack of prioritization skills.

    “When we get underneath why there’s ... so much effort and no result ... the problem identification always lands on prioritization. The lack of prioritization skills.” ([10:16])

• Adam’s 2x2 from Jeff Bezos on Decision-Making ([12:07]-[14:50])

  • Adam recounts a pivotal conversation with Jeff Bezos, who frames prioritization along two axes:
    1. How consequential is the decision?
    2. How reversible is it?
  • Bezos focuses only on highly consequential and irreversible decisions; the rest receive delegated, fast, or flexible attention.

    “He said there’s only one quadrant ... I spend real time and energy on. It’s the highly consequential, irreversible decisions...” ([12:36])

• Leadership Cascading and Alignment

  • Brené points out that different organizational levels perceive consequence and reversibility differently, leading to misalignment.

    “If I’m in the C suite, I have a different understanding ... than if I report up to someone who reports up ... to the C suite.” ([15:14])

  • She reflects:

    “I have not shared with them what I believe is consequential and inconsequential and what’s reversible and not reversible. I do not think my team is aligned.” ([16:07])

3. The Power of Reflection & Emotional Signals in Leadership

• The Impact of Leaders’ Emotional Reactions

  • Adam notes how offhand leader comments (or strong emotions) can distort team priorities:

    “People overweigh the offhand comments that leaders make. ... Is there a signal you sent that said this thing that’s inconsequential and reversible is actually really important to me?” ([17:39])

  • Brené admits:

    “I can be undisciplined in my emotional reactions ... therefore people are spending wild amount of time on something that I had an emotional reaction to because there was a dangling modifier ... it’s about my emotional responsiveness ... And then my response is perceived as, oh, shit, this is life or death for Brené.” ([18:29])

• Course Correction and Coaching Above the Line

  • Brené reiterates the importance of coaching from a place of “coach, challenger, creative” – or “above the line” – rather than victim, villain, or hero roles.

    “Above the line is coach Challenger and creative. So my job as a leader ... is I can clean it up with a note to the person and say, you know, so sorry we did this, I apologize. Or ... I’d love for you to reach out and make it right. Which is so much more rewarding for that team member.” ([28:00])

4. Rewarding Effort With Time: The Feedback Loop

• Effort as an Invitation to Coach

  • Both guests stress that real coaching begins when effort is visible but impact is lagging.
  • Adam recounts a formative experience from college, where being told his effort wasn’t translating into the right outcomes inspired him to shift his approach:

    “It’s whether you can use and extend the course concepts ... she had taught me how to redirect my effort.” ([24:42])

  • Brené frames this as a leadership imperative:

    “Start with myself and say, did I set this person up for success? ... with a clear understanding of what are the priorities, what’s consequential, what’s reversible and what’s not, and what is success going to look like?” ([26:01])

• Time Investment and the Reluctance of Leaders

  • Both acknowledge leaders’ hesitancy due to perceived time demands:

    “Their first comment ... is they’re going to say, ‘Well, that shit takes a lot of time. Getting that right takes a lot of time.’” ([29:46])

    • Adam retorts:

      “Do you want to invest a little time now to save a lot of time later? Your choice.” ([29:54])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misapplied Growth Mindset:

  “If you only praise effort, what you’re essentially doing is you’re rewarding students for only their inputs and ignoring their outputs.”
  — Adam Grant, [04:01]

• On Leadership Comfort and Rewarding Effort:

  “If you see effort, don’t reward it and call it excellence or success because that’s a lie. And that’s usually about your own comfort.”
  — Brené Brown, [08:07]

• On the Reality of Prioritization:

  “He said, there’s only one quadrant ... I spend real time and energy on. It’s the highly consequential, irreversible decisions.”
  — Adam Grant (channeling Jeff Bezos), [12:36]

• On Emotional Leadership Cues:

  “People are spending wild amount of time on something that I had an emotional reaction to ... it’s about my emotional responsiveness and ... my response is perceived as, oh, shit, this is life or death for Brené.”
  — Brené Brown, [18:29]

• On Investing in Coaching:

  “Do you want to invest a little time now to save a lot of time later? Your choice.”
  — Adam Grant, [29:54]

• On Leadership Growth:

  “If I could suck back all the coffees of Strong Ground, I’d like to add like four paragraphs ... there’s a lot of nuance under some of these things that we got underneath in these conversations that I think will make me a better leader and a better person.”
  — Brené Brown, [33:14]

Important Segments with Timestamps

| Segment Topic | Timestamps | Highlights | |-----------------------------|-------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | Origins of Rewarding Effort | 02:31-05:24 | Adam’s NYT op-ed, misapplied growth mindset | | Coaching vs Judging | 08:04-08:46 | Importance of feedback and coaching over pure judging | | Prioritization Crisis | 10:16-15:14 | Leadership challenges with prioritization amidst chaos | | Bezos’ 2x2 on Decisions | 12:07-14:50 | Framework for what is worth leaders’ deep focus | | Leadership Misalignment | 15:14-18:29 | Communication gaps and emotional signals in organizations | | Emotional Impact on Teams | 18:29-20:18 | How strong reactions inadvertently shape priorities | | Above vs Below the Line | 28:00-29:46 | Coaching mindset; repairing errors and leader humility | | Time Investment in Coaching | 29:46-29:59 | The payoff of deliberate coaching and feedback | | Personal Leadership Growth | 33:14-34:02 | Brené’s real-time reflections and learning |

Tone and Closing Thoughts

This episode is marked by humility, candor, and mutual respect. Both Brené and Adam openly reflect on their own missteps and evolving perspectives, reinforcing the book's emphasis on learning, unlearning, and embracing nuance.

“I’m already thinking, like, if I could suck back all the coffees of Strong Ground, I’d like to add like four paragraphs ... there's a lot of nuance under some of these things that we got underneath in these conversations that I think will make me a better leader and a better person.”
— Brené Brown, [33:14]

The session closes with warmth and gratitude, as both express hope that Strong Ground — and these conversations — will serve as living, re-readable resources for leaders striving for impact and integrity, even in unstable times.

For More:
This was the sixth and final episode in the series. Brené announces two upcoming “Ask Me Anything” episodes for continued engagement on Strong Ground’s topics.