Podcast Summary: Dare to Lead with Brené Brown
Episode: Brené and Adam Grant on the Skillsets of Empathy
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Adam Grant
Produced by: Vox Media Podcast Network
Overview:
This episode centers on the concrete skills of empathy, as discussed in Brené Brown’s new book Strong Ground. Brené and Adam dig into the nuanced practices required to demonstrate real empathy—especially in moments of instability and complexity. They explore why empathy is a skillset (not just a feeling), break down common ways people miss the mark (the “empathy misses”), and offer practical tools for meaningful connection. The conversation is rich with honesty, playful banter, and vulnerable admissions about their own empathy challenges.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Empathy is a Skill Set, Not a Trait (01:11–04:45)
- Brené reflects on people’s common surprise at learning empathy can be taught and developed.
- Empathy is not something you simply have—it must be practiced, even “signed for” as a commitment to keep trying after failure.
- Quote:
“I commit to practicing empathy, screwing up, and trying again.”
— Brené Brown (03:41)
2. Affective vs. Cognitive Empathy (04:45–07:56)
- Affective empathy (feeling what others feel) can be problematic: enmeshment, over-identification, and even secondary trauma.
- Cognitive empathy is healthier: recognizing and acknowledging others’ feelings without absorbing them. Requires a nuanced emotional vocabulary.
- Quote:
“Cognitive empathy drives connection and trust. It’s the ability to acknowledge what you might be feeling—without feeling it.”
— Brené Brown (05:27)
3. Five Core Empathy Skills (07:56–11:48)
- Perspective taking: Not walking in another’s shoes literally, but genuinely listening to and believing their experience.
- Adam and Brené share a humorous exchange about “shoe sharing” and Jack Handy’s joke.
- Staying out of judgment: Avoid placing value or assumptions on what you hear.
- Recognizing emotion: Identify what emotions the other person might be experiencing.
- Communicating understanding: Sometimes it’s as simple as “Oh, shit,” rather than clinical reflections.
- Mindfulness: Borrowed from Kristin Neff—feeling the emotion rather than pushing it away.
- Quote:
“Sometimes my sister will call and... I’ll just say, ‘Oh, shit.’ And she’s like, ‘Thanks. I can tell you get it.’”
— Brené Brown (08:54)
4. Avoiding Action Bias and the Trap of Solutions (11:48–16:53)
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Both hosts admit their default is to jump to action and solution, often before support is desired.
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Brené’s family and team have adopted explicit communication: “I’d like to share, and what would be helpful is just to listen.”
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Adam confesses listening doesn’t feel as valuable as problem-solving but realizes being chosen to listen means something.
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Quote:
“The fact that they chose me means it matters to them to be heard by me, not someone else.”
— Adam Grant (14:15) -
Key practice for leaders: Ask, “What does support from me look like right now?” instead of guessing or withholding support.
5. Empathy in Leadership (16:53–19:59)
- Leaders often fear what comes after asking about someone's struggle.
- Role-play reinforces that being curious and caring is more important than fixing.
- Setting boundaries: “I respect if you don’t want to share… but I still want to know what support looks like.”
6. Empathy Misses: The Eight Pitfalls (21:12–36:53)
Detailed Walkthrough with Role-Play and Self-Reflection
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1. Sympathy vs. Empathy: “I feel sorry for you.” (23:44)
- Pity, even well-intentioned, is laced with judgment and distance.
- Quote: “Bless your heart. You poor thing.” — Brené Brown (role play) (23:44)
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2. Judgment: “I’d feel bad too.” (24:53)
- Projecting your own values or shame.
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3. Disappointment: “I’m disappointed in you.” (25:51)
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4. Discharging Discomfort (Blame): “These students are so entitled.” (26:26)
- Deflecting discomfort by blaming or invalidating.
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5. Minimize or Avoid: “Oh my God, it’s not a big deal. Don’t even worry about it.” (27:25)
- Adam admits he does this—“I try to be the voice of reason.”
- Brené reframes: Focus on the other’s concern, not your own metric of importance.
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6. Comparing and Competing (Suffering Olympics): “You think that’s bad? Let me tell you what I went through…” (31:35)
- Sharing your own tough times can seem empathetic but often hijacks the focus.
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7. Compliance over Courage: “Don’t speak up, just do your work.” (33:05)
- Discourages vulnerability and truth-telling, especially around power dynamics.
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8. Fixing (Savior Complex): “I can fix this for you.” (35:04)
- Adam and Brené both confess to falling into “white knight” mentality; sometimes what’s needed is simply presence and curiosity.
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Quote:
“I can fix you. This is my... This is me.”
— Adam Grant (35:06) -
Quote:
“What does support look like from me right now?”
— Brené Brown (16:53 and recurring)
7. Asking for (and Offering) Support: Navigating the Burden (38:42–42:26)
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Addressing Bruce Feiler’s point: Is asking “How can I help?” offloading responsibility onto the person struggling?
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Brené suggests context matters—sometimes, concrete offers or suggested options (“Here are three things I could do…”) can bridge the gap.
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Quote:
“I would love your help to understand what does support look like from me right now? Here are a couple things I could do based on what I’ve heard so far.”
— Brené Brown paraphrasing (42:09)
8. Honest Reflections and Takeaways (42:27–46:59)
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Both hosts share their own “misses”—Brené with blaming, Adam with minimizing.
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They humorously describe the need for self-awareness, humility, and explicit communication in difficult conversations, especially with family.
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Memorable Moment:
Adam recounts posting his advice for his sister on Instagram because she wouldn’t listen—“driven by love, tainted by action bias.” (43:22–44:05)
9. The Paradox of Maturity: Autonomy and Asking for Help (45:55–46:51)
- In parenting and leadership, maturity is marked by both the ability to act independently and to ask for support.
- It’s vital to recognize when one is not the best helper, and to communicate that with humility.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Empathy Misses:
“Sympathy is not empathy… It feels like you’re looking down on me.”
— Adam & Brené (23:50–24:25) -
On Avoidance:
“I do this one all the time… I feel like I am frequently the voice of reason.”
— Adam Grant (27:25) -
On Fixing from a Place of Love:
“I posted it on Instagram and sent her the screenshot… that’s how badly I wanted to fix it.”
— Adam Grant (43:22–44:01) -
On Parental Empathy:
“It’s such a privilege that you come home and share these things with me. I don’t want to mess that up.”
— Brené Brown (36:54) -
On Leadership and Boundaries:
“Being curious and caring are irreducible prerequisites for good leadership.”
— Brené Brown (19:59)
Episode Flow & Timestamps
- [01:11–04:45] Empathy as skill-building, not an innate trait
- [04:45–07:56] Affective vs. cognitive empathy; the risks of emotional enmeshment
- [07:56–11:48] Five empathy practices and how to use them
- [11:48–16:53] Solutions trap and action bias—why “listening” can feel undervalued
- [16:53–19:59] Leadership: balancing curiosity, care, and boundaries
- [21:12–36:53] Comprehensive walkthrough of the eight major “empathy misses”
- [38:42–42:26] The burden of asking for help—contextual solutions
- [42:27–46:59] Humor, self-disclosure, insight on fixing, blaming, and minimizing
Conclusion & Takeaways
- Empathy is complex and requires continuous, intentional practice—no one always gets it right.
- The key is to be present, curious, and explicit about what’s needed (both in giving and receiving support).
- Mistakes (misses) are inevitable—own them, repair them, and keep learning.
- Final Nugget:
“Everyone misses—the empathy misses are not just about others… Know that Adam and I haven’t got this shit figured out either.”
— Brené Brown (42:27)
This summary captures the episode’s depth, delight, and honesty—useful for anyone seeking to strengthen their empathy muscles, lead better, or simply show up more fully for the people they care about.