Dare to Lead with Brené Brown
Episode: Brené and Adam Grant on Time Scarcity, Asking Questions, and Pocket Presence
Date: October 1, 2025 | Podcast Network: Vox Media | Host: Brené Brown
Special Guest: Adam Grant
Episode Overview
In this episode of Dare to Lead, Brené Brown is joined by organizational psychologist and bestselling author Adam Grant for a deep and lively discussion inspired by Brené’s new book Strong Ground. They unpack timely topics such as the psychology of time scarcity, the dangers and power of hope, distinguishing between "executive presence" and a new concept Brené calls "pocket presence." Listeners are invited into their process as they debate, unlearn, and co-create new ideas in real time. The episode is packed with research insights, personal anecdotes, memorable exchanges, and practical tools for bold leadership in uncertain times.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Reality and Illusions of Time Scarcity
Main Idea (01:14–04:31):
- Brené reflects on her tendency to devalue future time and the recurring trap of believing "tomorrow will be different." She shares her struggle with time scarcity and the coping mechanism of imagining a less chaotic future without actually changing her present behavior.
- Adam suggests this mindset acts as a psychological coping mechanism, prompting Brené to acknowledge, "For sure. But this is year 10" (02:42).
Notable Quote:
“Hope is not a strategy. Is that the line?”
—Adam Grant (02:53)
- Debate: Brené pushes back on this phrase, championing "hope" as defined by C.R. Snyder (agency and pathways), reframing it as active and strategic, not mere wishful thinking.
Memorable Exchange:
“I am pro Hope. I am radically anti magical thinking.”
—Brené Brown (03:00)
2. Hyperbolic Discounting and Valuing Our Future Selves
Main Idea (04:52–06:14):
- Adam introduces research on "hyperbolic discounting" (David Laibson), where people significantly undervalue future rewards compared to immediate ones.
- Brené points out the identity disconnect: “That future person is not me. Like the now is me, and I need to take care of the now” (05:42).
- Adam notes their personal differences: "You live in the present and I live in the future" (06:19).
Notable Quote:
“Future Brené doesn't need to be thoughtful about time. She's got all this shit figured out.”
—Brené Brown (06:05)
3. The Paradox of Presence: Discipline vs. Engagement
Main Idea (06:14–11:21):
- Adam recounts feedback differentiating his approach (pre-planned, future-focused) from Brené’s (thoughtful, pausing, in-the-moment), concluding that Brené’s present focus is her superpower (08:26).
- Brené asserts strengths and weaknesses exist along the same continuum; Adam agrees: "My favorite definition of a weakness is a strength overused or misused" (08:51).
- Brené shares how she refuses to review event questions in advance to preserve authentic, in-the-moment engagement—sometimes at the cost of others’ desire for predictability (09:57–11:21).
Notable Quote:
“I think all of our superpowers and our kryptonite are on the same continuum.”
—Brené Brown (08:26)
4. Questions vs. Answers: The Leader’s Real Role
Main Idea (11:21–13:34):
- Brené illustrates, with an example from her husband’s medical teaching, the tension between modeling vulnerability and being the "all-knowing expert."
- She challenges the idea that great leaders must have all the answers.
- Adam summarizes the tension: “They’re excited to learn with you, but they also want to learn from you” (11:21).
Notable Quote:
“I don’t think the definition of a great leader is someone who has all the answers. You know, it’s just questions.”
—Brené Brown (13:14)
5. “Pocket Presence” vs. “Executive Presence”
Main Idea (15:12–22:55):
- Brené introduces "pocket presence" (from football): a quarterback-like skill set encompassing situational awareness, trust in your team, and quick decision-making under pressure.
- She expresses strong distaste for "executive presence," arguing it upholds outdated, discriminatory standards prioritizing style over substance:
“Executive presence is cover for discriminating against women and introverts. And while you’re at it, could you do a smackdown of charisma too?” —Adam Grant (from text message, 19:48)
- Adam adds, “It’s all styled, no substance” (21:41), emphasizing the dangers of using "executive presence" as a vague, biased reason to gatekeep leadership roles.
Notable Quote:
“To me, it is a prescriptive way of how you think a leader looks and sounds. Where you and I both agree that the quiet nerd in the meeting, he or she normally has the best answers of the group, right?”
—Brené Brown (21:14)
6. Building Real "Pocket Presence"—Practical and Systemic Approaches
Main Idea (24:35–34:57):
- The "pocket presence" concept is unpacked:
- Brené reveals quarterbacks have just 2.8–3.5 seconds ("I guessed 40 seconds!") to act—underscoring pressure and anticipatory awareness (24:47).
- She stresses years of development, metacognition, and relational trust.
- Brené credits her social work background and systems theory for developing her own pocket presence, detailing the “Five Cs” delegation strategy:
- Context, Connective Tissue, Color, Consequence, Cost (30:27)
- She shares the powerful organizational impact: a junior team member, trained to always ask for the "Five Cs" and to “play back” what they heard, helped Brené avoid a strategic mistake (31:00–32:09).
Notable Moments:
-
Adam, impressed: “Here you are coming at her with a very specific and urgent request ... and she has the wherewithal to stand there and ground herself ... and help you realize, in fact, you don't want what you're asking for” (32:40).
-
Brené underscores building "braver" systems to support courage under pressure: “You’ve got to build systems that are braver than people” (33:05).
7. Pocket Presence is a Collective Capability
Main Idea (34:17–36:35):
- Adam’s "big aha": pocket presence is not just an individual talent but a collective capability born out of team systems and shared practices.
- This contrasts "executive presence" as a solitary performance.
- Brené is delighted: “Oh my God. You just put icing sprinkles and an edible flower on my cupcake of pocket presence” (34:44).
Notable Quote:
“Pocket presence is embedded in a system, not just in a person.”
—Adam Grant (35:53)
8. Learning is Social: Books and Relationships
Main Idea (37:19–38:11):
- The episode closes on the idea that transformation and meaningful learning happen relationally, not in isolation.
- Adam notes, “We need book clubs, not just individual reading,” citing their real-time breakthrough.
- Brené agrees: “I do believe that skills building happens in relationship” (37:43).
Timestamps & Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------| | 01:14–04:31 | Time Scarcity & Hope | | 04:52–06:14 | Hyperbolic Discounting & Psychological Distance| | 06:14–11:21 | Present vs. Future Focus in Leadership | | 11:21–13:34 | Leaders: Questions vs. Answers | | 15:12–22:55 | Pocket Presence vs. Executive Presence | | 24:35–34:44 | Building and Teaching Pocket Presence | | 34:17–36:35 | Pocket Presence as a System/Team Capability | | 37:19–38:11 | Skills-Building is Relational |
Notable Quotes
-
On Time Scarcity:
“It's going to take me a very long time to get my head around my devaluation of future time.”
—Brené Brown (01:14) -
On Leadership Strengths & Weaknesses:
“My favorite definition of a weakness is a strength overused or misused.”
—Adam Grant (08:51) -
On Executive Presence:
“Executive presence is cover for discriminating against women and introverts.”
—Adam Grant (19:48, via text quoted by Brené) -
On Systems & Courage:
“You’ve got to build systems that are braver than people because it's human nature to tap out of hard things.”
—Brené Brown (33:05) -
On Collective Capability:
“It's embedded in a system, not just in a person.”
—Adam Grant (35:53) -
On the Social Nature of Learning:
“I do believe that skills building happens in relationship.”
—Brené Brown (37:43)
Conclusion
This episode offers a fresh, candid conversation on how leaders can move beyond outdated models of "executive presence" and cultivate "pocket presence"—a situational, collective capability rooted in trust, systems thinking, and social learning. Listeners walk away with high-impact leadership tools (like the Five Cs and playback), new language for bold leadership, and the reassurance that being present—and building relational systems—matters more than ever.
Next Episode Teaser: Three more episodes left in the series; more deep dives to come.
(Advertisements, intros, and outros have been omitted. All quotes and insights are timestamped and attributed to retain the speakers’ authentic language and tone.)