Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On

Summary

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Episode Summary: “Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On”

Release Date: March 20, 2026
Podcast Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

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Overview

The inaugural episode of The Curiosity Shop brings Brené Brown (qualitative researcher, expert on vulnerability and leadership) and Adam Grant (organizational psychologist, quantitative researcher) together for a candid, unscripted conversation that dives into their personal history, explores misunderstandings in public discourse, and navigates the tension between research and lived experience. With humor and depth, they dissect their professional differences and highlight their commitment to learning, unlearning, and healthy disagreement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How They Got Here (Their Professional & Personal Backstory)

• Initial Encounter:

  • Met in a green room in 2013/2014 before a speaking event ([03:14])
  • Both recall the awkwardness of the first meeting, with Adam feeling like an unknown introducing himself to an already established Brené

• Public Disagreement Over “Authenticity” Article:

  • Adam wrote a 2016 NYT piece critical of generic “be yourself” advice, citing Brené’s definition of authenticity (without full contextual understanding), leading to Brené’s public response ([04:55], [07:28]).
  • Brené clarifies that her model of authenticity always incorporates boundaries, and that misreading or weaponizing her work is painful and persistent ([08:45]–[10:33]).
  • Adam admits he quoted Brené out of context and regrets not engaging more deeply with her work ([10:33]).
  • Both reflect on how this misunderstanding exemplifies a larger challenge: the reduction and misuse of complex ideas in public arenas.

2. Repair and Apology

• Their “Dust-Up” and Years of Silence:

  • After public sparring, they didn’t communicate for over four years ([12:52]).
  • Brené describes the disproportionate emotional toll of being misunderstood and seeing her work misused, making Adam an early “avatar” of her frustrations ([19:27]).
  • Adam shares how he couldn’t ignore Brené’s impact on organizations and found himself learning from her despite their rift ([20:39]).

• First Steps Toward Repair:

  • Adam reached out during the COVID pandemic, seeking Brené’s help for a women’s sports team; Brené agreed immediately, seeing it as an opportunity for personal alignment and repair ([22:53]).
  • Both admit their initial goal was to move past the discomfort rather than directly address it (“I was very hopeful that this would never come up again.” – Brené, [26:47]).
  • The process of repair deepens with mutual recognition, private apologies, and a shared commitment to avoiding past mistakes ([32:00]–[33:45]).

• Masterclass in Apology:

  • Brené praises Adam’s “masterclass in repair and apology,” noting its specificity and accountability ([33:27]).
  • Adam reflects on learning to apologize, including playful personal anecdotes (“You were right, I was wrong, you’re smart, I’m stupid…” — Adam, referencing Happy Gilmore, [35:14]).

3. Authenticity, Boundaries, and Empathy in Work and Life

• Complexity of Authenticity:
  • Both stress that authenticity without empathy and boundaries can be reckless or even selfish ([17:01]).
  • “Be yourself with people who’ve earned the right to see you… share your story with people who’ve earned the right to hear your story…” — Brené ([14:03]).
• Vulnerability and Power Dynamics:
  • Brené describes her approach to consulting: helping leaders understand why “armor” is required or rewarded in their organizations, and how removing it can unleash innovation and trust ([15:10]).
  • Adam agrees, calling out leaders’ moral responsibility to care for others' well-being ([15:37]).

4. Boundaries, Misinterpretation, and Weaponization of Ideas

• Weaponization of Emotional Research:
  • Brené explains that emotional and resonant ideas are easily internalized, personalized, and then mismatched (“People read the definition of authenticity, but built into the definition of authenticity is boundaries…” — Brené, [08:56]).
• Misuse of Short-Form Content:
  • Both lament how clips and quotes out of context feed the culture of certainty, stripping away the “complex simplicity” they value ([45:15], [46:16]).

5. Personal Reflection on Growth, Shame, and Apology

• Family and Cultural Dynamics:
  • They discuss the impact of “shame-bound families” and cultures of honor, where apologizing is conflated with weakness, and how this inhibits adaptive guilt and repair ([38:50]–[41:00]).
• Code Switching and Cost of Inauthenticity:
  • The physical, emotional, and cognitive cost of not being able to be oneself at work or at home: “When you feel like you have to put on a mask in order to succeed professionally, you see then higher rates of burnout… extreme stress…” — Adam ([42:16]).

6. Complexity, Simplicity, and Communication

• Elegance Over Reduction:
  • They discuss the challenge of making complex research accessible without losing nuance.
  • Adam cites Oliver Wendell Holmes:
    “For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give anything.” ([48:07])
  • Both agree on using metaphor and story to capture this “complex simplicity” ([52:26]).

7. What They’ll Never Agree On: Ongoing Tensions

• Research vs. Lived Experience:
  • Who is responsible for bridging the gap between theory and reality? A persistent area of disagreement ([56:13]).
• Faith:
  • “I don’t believe in anything that can't be proven. But I also don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproven.” — Adam ([60:01])
  • “If it’s a mystery that surpasses all human understanding, I’m for it.” — Brené ([60:21])
• Text vs. Email:
  • Playful, but revealing preference debate with no resolution ([58:01]–[59:16])

8. How They Move Forward

• Authenticity and Tension as Strengths:
  • They celebrate their ability to disagree with curiosity, seeing ongoing friction as a source of growth rather than division ([62:09]–[62:40]).
• Commitment to Complex Conversations:
  • Both reiterate their shared values of curiosity, rigorous thinking, and openness even in disagreement ([62:46]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Boundaries and Authenticity:

  • “Vulnerability minus boundaries is inappropriate disclosure” — Brené ([08:56])
  • “Any message taken out of context is dangerous.” — Brené ([09:05])
  • “Authenticity without empathy is selfish." — Adam ([17:01])

• On Repair:

  • “Your repairs are very specific. They don’t let you or me off the hook.” — Brené to Adam ([37:30])
  • “I can be a good person and admit that I did a bad thing. I can be a smart person and admit I got something wrong.” — Adam ([35:31])

• On Power in Organizations:

  • “If you don’t want to know what you and other leaders are doing to make armor required and rewarded here, you’re not gonna like working with me.” — Brené ([14:01])

• On Simplicity and Complexity:

  • “For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give anything.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes, quoted by Adam ([48:07])

• On Perpetual Disagreement:

  • “We just don’t see the world the same way. But we see the same world, which is weird. And value the same thing.” — Brené ([62:43]–[62:48])

• On Moving Forward:

  • “If we’re both just ourselves here, the tension is going to be organic… because we just don’t see the world the same way.” — Brené ([62:32])

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Important Timestamps

• Origins & Green Room Meeting: [03:14]–[04:24]
• 2016 Public Disagreement: [04:55]–[11:00]
• Definitions & Boundaries: [08:45]–[10:33]
• On Weaponizing Work: [11:12]–[12:24]
• First Repair Attempt & COVID Connection: [20:41]–[23:16]
• Masterclass in Apology: [33:27]–[36:05]
• Culture, Shame & Repair: [38:50]–[41:30]
• Simplicity, Metaphor & Communication: [48:07]–[52:34]
• The Big Unresolvables (Research/Experience, Faith, Text vs Email): [55:03]–[60:40]
• Concluding Reflections on Authentic Tension: [62:09]–[62:48]

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Candid and unscripted: Both hosts often acknowledge the “agenda is out the window” and embrace the unpredictability of their chemistry and disagreements.
• Generous and humorous: Light teasing undergirds difficult topics.
• Vulnerable and thoughtful: Modeling the very complexity and debate they wish to foster in public discourse, especially as they move from public “dust-up” to collaborative partnership.

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For New Listeners

This episode is the origin story for both a professional partnership and a friendship forged through tension, repair, and shared curiosity. It offers a rare, deeply human look at two leading thinkers wrestling not only with their field’s biggest questions but also their own relational wounds, assumptions, and aspirations. Whether you’re keen on organizational science, leadership, or the art of having better arguments, this is a rich, engaging listen—full of lessons on boundaries, nuance, and the noble mess of trying to do better together.

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“The Curiosity Shop is all about trying to reach complex simplicity in a world that wants easy answers and quick fixes and consumes way too much snake oil.”
— Adam Grant, [52:34]

Transcript

[Brene Brown]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Brene Brown]

Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show

[Adam Grant]

from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

[Brene Brown]

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. I'm Brene Brown.

[Adam Grant]

And I'm Adam Grant.

[Brene Brown]

We're glad you're here. We're here.

[Adam Grant]

I'm glad we're here.

[Brene Brown]

I'm glad we're here.

[Adam Grant]

Minor miracle.

[Brene Brown]

I'm shocked. We're here.

[Adam Grant]

Really surprising. We did it well. We're doing it well.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not get too excited. Two things that I think we should talk about today for our first podcast, Maiden Voyage. One, how we got here and almost didn't get here.

[Adam Grant]

Are you sure we want to go there?

[Brene Brown]

I think we should. And if this absolutely goes to hell, what our best predictions are about, why it'll go to hell. How about that?

[Adam Grant]

I definitely look forward to that one.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. So let's jump in.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. Before we do that, I want to take a Quick moment to thank our launch sponsors. We have SAS powering better decisions with data and AI. You can learn [e-mail], that's sas.com and

[Brene Brown]

if you're looking for a partner in design and productivity, you can also check out our other launch sponsor, which is Canva. You can learn [e-mail] I love. I'm self teaching myself, Canva. It's really fun. If you can't find me sometime, it's because I'm trying to make cool things. That's canva.com, and thank y' all both for being launch sponsors. That's exciting.

[Adam Grant]

We're obviously thrilled to have them on board and you'll get to hear more about them as we go.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, let's do it. So tell the story about how we first encountered each other.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I remember meeting in a green room backstage before an event that we were both speaking at. And we probably chatted for five minutes.

[Brene Brown]

This was before our desktop.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, yeah. This was a decade ago, probably.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, wow. Okay. I don't remember.

[Adam Grant]

Maybe. No, it was longer. I think it was 2013, 2014.

[Brene Brown]

What? Yeah, I don't remember.

[Adam Grant]

I think we were in Arizona and we met backstage or. No, it was a green room and I think we chatted for five minutes and that was the end of it.

[Brene Brown]

And I clearly left a bad impression because you took me down in your online article. Your article from the New York Times. Yeah, go ahead, Go ahead. Clearly, that was not a good meeting. This was not a good meeting, folks.

[Adam Grant]

I thought the meeting was fine.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, so let's talk about that.

[Adam Grant]

I actually left it feeling like I was awkward because I felt like I knew who you were and you didn't know who I was.

[Brene Brown]

I would be surprised if I didn't know who you were in 2013.

[Adam Grant]

I don't know. I just walked in and introduced myself. I don't know if she knows who I am, and I don't know if I should introduce myself as if she does or doesn't and didn't know what to do with that.

[Brene Brown]

So, you know, it's probably because when I'm in a green room, I'm locked in. And that's probably why I'm locked in, because I'm praying.

[Adam Grant]

To whom?

[Brene Brown]

God. I am praying. I have a prayer that I say every time before I speak, before a speech, before a talk or anything. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. So I had no idea. So I was trampling on your prayer?

[Brene Brown]

No, no, no, you weren't trampling, but I'M probably locked in. In a green room and maybe back then even more so.

[Adam Grant]

I believe that.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

But other than just not being sure how the interaction went, I didn't really think about it.

[Brene Brown]

So then let's talk about what happens next.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, then. I was writing an article about what I consider problematic advice for people at work, which is be yourself.

[Brene Brown]

Agreed.

[Adam Grant]

And I was looking. Well, I wrote the article basically just trying to capture some evidence about how people who are too obsessed with being themselves end up making bad impressions and getting worse performance reviews and not getting promoted. And I finished a draft of the article, and my editor said, you need a definition of authenticity. And I started looking up definitions, and you had the best one by far. By far. I mean, nailed it in a sentence. And I thought, this is it. And I thought it was a shout out, like, hey, Brene has done the best work on authenticity. Let me quote her. What I did not do, and I regret having not done it, was read the rest of the work and understand your definition in context. Because I think I would have framed the article very differently, but it. It didn't. It didn't cross my mind. I thought it was, hey, Brene's done great work on authenticity. Here's how she defines it, and here's how the advice to be yourself can get you in trouble. And that is not how it came across to you. I think, because I woke up the next morning and my social channels, my email, even some texts, all of it was blowing up saying, brene Brown just smacked you down. And I was like, what? What? I was shocked. You were not happy, but didn't let me.

[Brene Brown]

Let's find it. We should have prepped for this. What is the. What is the. Let's see.

[Adam Grant]

You're looking for the title.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Adam Grant]

I did not write the headline.

[Brene Brown]

Now, let's go ahead. Go ahead and tell folks the title.

[Adam Grant]

I think the title was, unless you're Oprah, be yourself is terrible advice.

[Brene Brown]

And then. But where was the part. I'm in the LinkedIn. What was the part about me? No, there was. No, no, no. We should look. Hold on. Let's look. This is a LinkedIn, by the way.

[Adam Grant]

We've never really talked about this.

[Brene Brown]

No, we've never talked about it. No. I think.

[Adam Grant]

No way around it.

[Brene Brown]

No, I think what happened was. What year was that?

[Adam Grant]

2016.

[Brene Brown]

20.

[Adam Grant]

That one.

[Brene Brown]

It's not this one.

[Adam Grant]

It's the Oprah one. Go back up.

[Brene Brown]

Hold on. We're looking right here. That's it.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, right there. January 2016.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. Yes. Yeah. So it was a smackdown of authenticity.

[Adam Grant]

I didn't mean it for it to be a smackdown of authenticity, though. Right. I was trying to say the be yourself advice as a way of expressing authenticity.

[Brene Brown]

But I actually believe. But I actually believe that authenticity. This is such a wild thing that we ended up here. We did not plan for this. Every time we sit down, this happens. Like, you have no idea how many times we've scripted what we're going to say. And it never works. Here's the thing that's frustrating to me about the perception of my work. Be vulnerable is the takeaway. But no one reads the next three sentences which says, vulnerability minus boundaries is inappropriate disclosure. People read the definition of authenticity, but built into the definition of authenticity is boundaries, boundaries. The cost people have. Look, I've worked in unsafe places. Like, literally, my first boss out of my MSW program threw a glass paperweight at me. Like, no, I have worked in. Oh, yes, I have worked in. Really tumultuous. And let me tell you, like, I graduated from high school in 1983.

[Adam Grant]

I was two.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, fuck off. When for me, sexual harassment was the price of entry for work. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

So sorry.

[Brene Brown]

No, no. Yeah, but it's. For most women my age, we, you know, I. The whole idea that I would tell people, you know, without any boundaries, be vulnerable, be, you know, read the rest of it. Don't weaponize the first line if you don't understand the second. I can't fix the fact that people don't read the whole thing and leave with a single message. Any message taken out of context is dangerous. When I was a young academic, I was authentic by my definition, which was. I was brave, I was boundaried. I trusted my instinct about who to trust with things that I wanted to share and not share. So the whole thing is that no one talks about the emotional weight of not being authentic. So I think authenticity is a very complex thing that includes being boundaried and building internal systems where you count on yourself intuitively to trust when you can and what you can share and with whom.

[Adam Grant]

And I'm completely on board with that and clearly did not capture that in this short piece where I quoted you out of context.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And so I think that. So when I read that, probably my ire towards you. Is that right, the right word? Yeah, like my.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, I think it was stronger than ire.

[Brene Brown]

You do?

[Adam Grant]

I mean, look at some of the sentences you wrote in your response.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, but people complimented us on our back and forth. Right. People were like, wow, this is how more people should argue this way, but I think we debated. I was absolutely pissed because I think you represented a larger wholesale issue with the weaponization of work. That. And it's not just my work. You know, we were with Estaire Perel last night because, you know, coming off a South by Southwest event, The hardest. One of the most difficult things about emotional resonance when you write with emotionally resonant language, is it succeeds in doing the thing the writer wants, which is to internalize it and make it your own. It's emotionally resonant. It finds a compartment in your heart where it can live. It gets cozy. It gets a blanket. It snuggles into the sofa in your heart and thinks, yeah, this speaks to me. This is true. Then you make it your own, and then you regurgitate it through your own lens. And that's why people are like psychological safety. So you're basically what Amy Edmonstone is telling people is if it doesn't feel comfortable, then it's okay to say you're unsafe. No, she never said that.

[Adam Grant]

But the opposite of that.

[Brene Brown]

She's a hardcore performance researcher. Right. And so I think you. And it didn't help that you were a dude.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, wait, so I got stereotyped as one of those men?

[Brene Brown]

Yes. That you. Yes. I think my initial reaction. I don't think I had the language back.

[Adam Grant]

Quantitative social scientist jerk.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Mansplaining my work and taking it out of. Out of context. So then I was like, I'm done with you. I was just like, I can't. And, God, in a way, it was

[Adam Grant]

more than that, wasn't it?

[Brene Brown]

No, I don't think so. Cause I had never.

[Adam Grant]

Cause we didn't talk for four years after that.

[Brene Brown]

But we had never talked before that.

[Adam Grant]

That's true.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. So it's not like we were friends and I broke our friendship.

[Adam Grant]

No, but we. I mean, I wrote a pretty strongly worded rebuttal, and then you responded again, and then we just. That was the end of it.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And I remember somebody, I don't know, it was Seth Godin or someone was like, hey, y', all, there's a dust up on LinkedIn. I was like, oh, please. But, yeah, I just wasn't doing it. But I have to tell you that it was probably a disproportional response.

[Adam Grant]

You think?

[Brene Brown]

I'm sorry about that. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, thank you. Well, I'm sorry that I failed to read your definition in context, because I would have written really differently about your work and how it actually is the solution to the problem with your Self advice, not part of the problem.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Cause I think people who understand my work know that my bottom line is, be yourself with people who've earned the right to see yourself share your story with people who've earned the right to hear your story.

[Adam Grant]

Wait, say that again.

[Brene Brown]

Be yourself with people who've earned the right to see yourself. You know, to see you and share your story with people who've earned the right to hear your story and with people with whom you've built a relationship that can bear the weight of the story. You know, that's like. And it's so. This is really interesting because people, this is, this is so interesting because people also say, wow, you're telling people to take their armor off at work. And I said, no, actually, when we do a dare to lead intervention, the reason why a lot of CEOs after the first meeting with me say I'm not working with you is if you want us to come and do the work, I'm happy to do that. We're gonna start by identifying the people with the least formal, the least amount of formal power and the least amount of proximity to power. And then we're gonna start with one question. Why is armor required or rewarded here? And if you're willing to hear what information we collect from that process, you're a great fit for this work. If you don't want to know what you and other leaders are doing to make armor required and rewarded here, you're not gonna like working with me.

[Adam Grant]

So powerful.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. So very few people make it through that litmus test. Because most people are like. And then you can imagine if I'm working with the CEO that says, I want to know.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Because the armor is not only killing them, it's killing innovation, it's killing trust, and it's killing performance.

[Adam Grant]

It's shocking to me that there are leaders who wouldn't want to know.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, the majority.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, one that I think long term is a choice to fail.

[Brene Brown]

It is a choice to fail, but it is a choice of self protection and ego over winning.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. And secondly, I mean, I think it's just morally irresponsible to not care about the impact you have on other people.

[Brene Brown]

This is where we go so wrong. Because I'm like, but isn't the protection of power and privilege more morally irresponsible?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, it is.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. So that's where this lives. So I think I was, and I have to say it was an embryonic moment in my career when this happened that I was just starting to see people Bubbling up, taking the work out of context. And it was at a larger scale than I could whack a mole down. Cause at first I was just responding to every tweet, every. Everything. No, no, that's not this. You missed this part. No, no, no, this. And then there it is in the New York Times, you know, and I'm like, shit.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I. Look, I think you can say your response was disproportionate, but I'm the one who caused the response in the first place with what I wrote. And being careful in my writing and being respectful of other people's work are core priorities for me. And I'm sorry that I failed to live up to those standards. I. I think a couple things are, you know, are occurring to me as we talk this through. It's strange that we never talked about

[Brene Brown]

this in full, I think. We've never talked about this. We've never. We've walked around it. We've never walked into it.

[Adam Grant]

No. And I'm trying to figure out why, which I want to. I want to talk about. But I think one. You know, one thing that hit me after I got some distance from your response was what I should have said. And what actually I think we agree on is that authenticity without empathy is selfish. That is not just about saying, well, this is who I am. Let me express myself. But also I need to do that in ways that show regard for other people's values and well being.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. I think authenticity without empathy and boundaries fails to be authenticity. And I think authenticity should be in service of connection. So I think it's very difficult in a work perspective, from a work perspective, to be authentic in an environment where conversations about power and identity are not. Okay.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Yeah. I think. I mean, it's remarkable how aligned we could have been on that.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Grant]

So why have we never talked about this? Because I came out of that thinking, I will never talk to this person again.

[Brene Brown]

Same. Oh, for sure. By design. Yeah. I mean, just yet. No. I don't know. So for the over four years. Over the course of the four years, several people came to me and said, I know you and Adam had, like a real disagreement. It was pretty public. I think you would weirdly get along. And it's not that they said, I weirdly think you would get along. They said, I think you would weirdly get along. Which we weirdly get along sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, we think we always get along. Maybe there's been hiccups, but they're not hiccups. I don't want to. There's been moments of frustration and then repair frustration on both sides.

[Adam Grant]

I

[Brene Brown]

don't know. I just wasn't interested because we've never talked about this before. Because I think in the four years that followed the article, this became one of the heaviest and hardest things in my life. This kind of misuse and weaponization of my work.

[Adam Grant]

And I was an avatar of that.

[Brene Brown]

And you were an early avatar of that. Yeah. And so I think I just was like. And it was coming in. It felt sandwiching for me because on the one side, I got, you know, you're not understanding what it's like for some people that are not in your position, what it means to be vulnerable. And I said, you know, God. And then on the other side, I remember I gotta revise and resubmit on an article that said you've over sampled especially black women. And so, yeah. And so it was 48% of one of my samples. But I think it was like, because that's who's being targeted right now. And so it's not an over sample. It's a. You're an understupid. I mean, I just have this bad reaction. So I think I just was disinterested. The hard thing for me that felt misaligned is I was reading all of your work.

[Adam Grant]

I was reading yours, too.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I was reading your work, highlighting your work. Work. Challenging myself with your work. I was respecting and appreciating your work. So then I get the call four years later from you. Do you want to talk about that?

[Adam Grant]

I don't know.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, just go ahead. You called for. You asked me for a favor.

[Adam Grant]

I asked for help. Yeah, I was. Well, yeah, I mean, I was reading and learning so much from your work and watching your talks and every. The other thing that happened was everywhere I went, you had spoken same. I kept hearing. I actually have two questions I always ask when I'm either speaking at an event or visiting an organization. One is, what can I do better? The other is, who's the person who's had the most impact? And every single place I went, when I asked who has most helped your organization or your people, the answer was Brene Brown. And at first I was like, damn it, I hate that. This is terrible. Newman. Exactly. Newman. It was such a Seinfeld moment for me. Newman. And then it happened enough times, and I had been internalizing much more of your work, and I found myself quoting you saying, as Brene Brown says, clear as kind. And I think I begrudgingly had to admit that there was value in your work. And I find it really hard to fully separate the art from the artist.

[Brene Brown]

Same.

[Adam Grant]

I think your values are infused in what you create. And so I started coming around to the idea this person has a lot to contribute. She probably has a lot of virtues. And yeah, then I was. During COVID I was working with a women's sports team and having a hard time getting them to engage with some of the. The research and ideas that I thought would help them. And I decided to create a little speaker series because nobody could go anywhere during COVID So I said, let's do this virtually. I'll bring in speakers. Who do you want? And the number one request was Brene Brown. And I thought, what do I have to lose? Worst that happens is she still hates me. And we don't talk. We already don't talk. She probably already hates me. And I was so surprised I reached out to you and you said yes immediately by email. You responded to an email.

[Brene Brown]

I did respond to an email.

[Adam Grant]

And I remember you showing up and just one, just imparting so much wisdom to the team and two, making it clear that you wanted to help even somebody you didn't like. Like, who does that?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, because I felt hypocritical because I think you probably. That email caught me right in the middle of reading one of your books. And I think I was talking to my kids about your work too. Cause I thought it was really helpful. And so I was just like, this is so. This is just stupid. I don't know what we're. I mean, like life is too hard at this point. Cause we were in the middle of COVID Just stuff was hard. I thought it was really generous to reach out to me. I mean, it's interesting. The first time we did a dare to lead interview was at the Gates foundation. And we asked. That was the first place we asked this later, this group of leaders, this question. And we've since asked over 10,000 leaders and what is the thing that your direct reports do that build trust for you? Like someone's reporting to you what's a behavior they engage in. And everyone always thinks it's going to be reliability. Like you can dependability or reliability. And the number one thing is always they ask for help. When someone who reports to me asks for help, my trust for them skyrockets. So I think when you asked for help, I kind of felt like this is first of all hypocritical internally. Does that make sense to me? He can't be the avatar for a General frustration I had because I am the avatar for so many people's frustration, and that's so unfair and hurtful. And so I was like, this is a great opportunity.

[Adam Grant]

Wow, look at that.

[Brene Brown]

But we've never talked about this. It's so weird.

[Adam Grant]

Well, okay, so a couple things. One, you're reminding me of a classic paper by Jecker Landy, 1965. Fact check that later. The paper is about liking a person as a function of doing a favor for them and how when you are asked for help, when you help the person, if you weren't forced or obligated to do it, you come away thinking, well, I must care about them or like them. Otherwise, why in the world was I doing this?

[Brene Brown]

God, that's interesting.

[Adam Grant]

Obviously did not cross my mind. I was just desperate to try to get through to this team. When I reached out to you, I

[Brene Brown]

have to tell you, that was a tough gig.

[Adam Grant]

It was definitely challenging. And it was a Hail Mary pass to you, which you kindly caught, ran

[Brene Brown]

down the field, and boom, touchdown, Brene Brown. No, I didn't actually. I actually experienced that. I didn't care as much of the outcome of how impactful our conversation was. That was not my goal for the interaction. My goal for the interaction was more repair with you and connection and just kind of build something.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Cause it wasn't the first time I'd worked with that specific group of people, you know, or at least an individual capacity. And I knew it was gonna be tough.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Wow. Then it was extra generous of you to take it on, given what you were walking into. But I think it's. I remember being unsure at the time. We talked probably for five minutes before we went on the virtual stage. And I wasn't sure if I should apologize and try to repair the relationship then or if just. It felt like there wasn't enough time. And I decided instead just to show my genuine appreciation for you being willing to do this and, you know, helping. And I think I'm curious now, if I had apologized then, would it have played out differently than just kind of getting to know each other on a different level through working a little together?

[Brene Brown]

I think I was very hopeful that this would never come up again.

[Adam Grant]

I was just like, you want to talk about it?

[Brene Brown]

No, I didn't. I don't think I wanted to talk about. Then I was like, let's just lock in and help this team. Like, this is.

[Adam Grant]

You're in task mode.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I was in task mode. And I was also like, move on. And I don't think we would have. I don't know that we would have. I don't know that it would have been helpful in that. It's almost like me not remembering that I met you in the green room. Like, when I go, I have my list of questions before I do something like. You have your list of questions. My questions are, what's a home run look like? What's the greatest lift I could do for you right now? And sometimes someone will say, if you could make a connection between these two things, it'd be really helpful if you could do this or this. And then sometimes I have to say I actually don't believe that's true. So I won't be able to do that next.

[Adam Grant]

You do not actually want what you think you want.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I don't think you need.

[Adam Grant]

Let me tell you what I think I could do that might be more helpful.

[Brene Brown]

Exactly. And if that's what you need. Ooh, I'm not your right person.

[Adam Grant]

Like, yeah, so that's such an interesting Jerry Maguire moment. Like, help me help you.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, help me help you. And zero chance that I'm gonna do your bidding for something. And yeah, it's not gonna work like that.

[Adam Grant]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

When you think of the most influential American politician of the 21st century, you probably think of a man. But there's one woman who might fit the bill. She never thought she'd be in politics, but went on to break what she calls the marble ceiling.

[Brene Brown]

Then they'd say, well, why don't you all just make a list of things that the women want, and we'll do those. What this is in this century, really. So the marble ceiling, it's not a glass ceiling, it's a marble ceiling. And they all had it lined up. And you go next, and I'll go next, and I'll go next. And we're like, well, you know what we've been waiting over 200 years for? Breaking in line.

[Adam Grant]

Nancy Pelosi, the longtime Democratic speaker of the House, live on stage at south by Southwest in Austin today explained. Every weekday and now on Saturdays, too. Okay, so you wanted to move forward.

[Brene Brown]

So I just wanted to move forward.

[Adam Grant]

That's okay. That's helpful to know. I felt like it was an elephant in the room not talking about it. And I think we. I think our next interaction then was months later when you invited me onto your podcast, which was. I was shocked when you did. And I think I probably just said I regretted the way that I captured your work in that article. And I don't think we aired it, but I just said I committed to making that right, moving forward. And that was. We haven't talked about it since.

[Brene Brown]

I'm going to tell you one thing that I think is weirdly surprising about you that I've learned in the last couple of months. I don't think I've ever been like. I think the shtick that people think about us who know us together or have been working on the podcast is like, I'm the emotions person, you're the data person. I'm the left brain, you're the right brain.

[Adam Grant]

Reverse.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Oh, wait, no, I'm the right brain. You're left brain. Yeah. I'm qualitative. You're quantitative, you know, you're empirical evidence. I'm lived experience, you know, with, you know, empirical rising, because that's just grounded theory. But I will say one of the things I found really surprising is I don't think I've ever been across from someone who has. Who. That I have experienced taking more full accountability in a repair situation and issuing a more thoughtful apology than you.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you.

[Brene Brown]

That has been a very big learning for me about what I could do better.

[Adam Grant]

Really?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And So I think at the top of that podcast, I chose not to air it. They actually. They asked me like, wow, that was so beautiful. Do you want to put this. Include this on the podcast? Because we were already recording.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And I said, no, it was personal.

[Adam Grant]

Do you still have it?

[Brene Brown]

I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't know. I don't know. Do we keep those things?

[Adam Grant]

I don't know.

[Brene Brown]

I don't know. I don't know. I doubt it.

[Adam Grant]

No. I'm curious to listen to it and learn from it.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, No, I think it was. Well, you mean your own apology? Yeah. Oh, I've got one in. Another one from you in writing. More recent.

[Adam Grant]

Very recent. That was extremely recent.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Which you have not responded to.

[Brene Brown]

Because we did it over the phone.

[Adam Grant]

I know, but I wanted to document it to make it really clear that I understood the mistake I made and I was gonna correct it moving forward. And I also wanted you to have it to share with your team. Cause I think I left them feeling a little devalued.

[Brene Brown]

But you reached out to them individually and did that. But. Okay, well.

[Adam Grant]

And I didn't even know who was affected.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, well, I just want to say that I think your repair and apology. Harriet Lerner, who I did this podcast with, on apologizing, she's just one of the greatest mentors and teachers, would be like, damn, y'. All. This is a masterclass in repair and apology.

[Adam Grant]

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[Brene Brown]

Where does that come from?

[Adam Grant]

I think it comes from two places. I think I grew up in an environment where people didn't know how to repair. And I just. I don't know. I don't know. Actually, I'm trying to make sense of this. I think the short version is. Let me try this again. I think there's something about being a child of divorce that led me to say, I'm going to be the peacemaker. I'm going to make sure everyone always gets along. And somewhat. I learned one of my core values is kindness and generosity. And you can't always make sure that your behavior lands the way you want it to. And so if you don't get good at righting your wrongs, then you're going to have a lot of damaged relationships. And so I think that was in the background. I think I struggled early on. I really like being right. You know this about me.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And admitting that I was wrong is really hard for me. And when I struggle with something like that, I feel like I have to overcorrect in order to Build the skill that I'm trying to build. And so actually, it's something I started practicing. Allison would give me a hard time because I didn't want to kind of admit that I was wrong in an argument. And then the next day, I would have to very sheepishly come to her and, like, do my little Happy Gilmore routine. Do you know this scene?

[Brene Brown]

No.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. So I'd. I'd come in and I'd be like, you were right, I was wrong. You're smart. I'm stupid. You're good looking. I'm not attractive.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, no.

[Adam Grant]

It's a scene right out of Gilmore, and we'd both start cracking up.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I had to do that a bunch of times to get used to saying, you were right, I was wrong, and being okay with that. I can be a good person and admit that I did a bad thing. I can be a smart person still and admit that I got something wrong. I don't have to get an A plus on everything. That was a hard thing for me to learn. And once I learned it, I felt like this is something I have to get good at if I care about people and I care about relationships. You're not a therapist, but thank you for inviting me to your.

[Brene Brown]

No, I am definitely not another thing people get wrong about me. For sure. I have a therapist, too. Couples and individual. I'm just blown away by the application of your rigor. The same application of your rigor around organizational, behavioral science to becoming a better person. And I think I've just had, like, a big learning, which happens every time we talk about hard things. I think. Which is. It's not hard for me to be wrong at all.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, I want to know more about how you.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I don't think I repair and apologize as well as you do, because, like, I'm going to get better at that. I'm going to work on that because. It's an interesting experience. I'm like, I am wrong. That's so great. Like, I take a lot of. Like, I take a lot of comfort in knowing that I'm comfortable being wrong. Like, I like the fact I like that about me. Like, I can own stuff very quickly, but I think sometimes I don't look at the damage that being wrong did.

[Adam Grant]

Hmm.

[Brene Brown]

Why not? Maybe because that's the feeling part of it that I don't like. And so I can definitely cognitively be like, oh, I was so wrong. You're right. But I apologize. But your repairs are very specific. They feel. They don't let. They don't let you or me off the hook in terms of accepting them you name very much. I apologize for this. I'm wondering if this left people feeling like this. That was not my intention. There was a gap between my intention and my impact. I see that. I apologize for it. I own it. I will course correct.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, I read the research on how to make amends and then said what I'm saying.

[Brene Brown]

This is what I'm saying. I just feel like everybody in the room masterclass in apologizing and repair. Everybody's like, wow. Yeah, it's. It's impressive. So thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you for that. I think it's okay. So I want to go back to authenticity for a second. Yeah, you said earlier. I was just thinking about this actually in the context of apologizing. I think when people put on armor, I think there are workplaces and families where people can't apologize because apologizing comes across as weakness. Exactly.

[Brene Brown]

For sure. My family and. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I just look at that and I think if you have wronged somebody or hurt someone or even done something that just had an impact that was different than what you meant. Refusing to apologize is not a sign of strength. It's a sign of narcissism.

[Brene Brown]

It's so interesting how we. I think one thing we share in common is I do think about the data when I think about who I want to be. Like, I do think about research when I think about. Yeah, and so you do too, obviously. Yeah, I do. I don't know that it's a form. I don't know that I agree with the narcissism part. I think that it can be shame to apologize because I think when you're raised in a shame bound family that there's no difference between I did something wrong and I am wrong. I'm a bad person, not I did a bad thing.

[Adam Grant]

So you never get the adaptive effects of guilt.

[Brene Brown]

You don't get the adaptive effects of I am a good person who made a choice that was hurtful to other people. I need to repair and make a different choice moving forward. You get a, I am not a good person. I am not worthy of love and belonging. So I think for a lot of people, which is interesting, in shame bound families, I think what the research shows us is there are more disconnections and disruptions and ruptures and less apologizing for them.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

So I think, and I think in my family, again, fifth generation Texan, you know,

[Adam Grant]

culture of honor.

[Brene Brown]

Culture. Culture of honor and shame.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Well, I think. I think of shame as the flip side of.

[Brene Brown]

It's the flip side of honor. Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually not the flip side of honor. Shame and honor live on the same

[Adam Grant]

side of the coin because they're both excessively image focused.

[Brene Brown]

Managing self perception and duty over commitment.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I mean, I think in shame bound families there's a duty to not talk about certain things. There's a duty of. There's duty. And duty is very different than commitment

[Adam Grant]

because duty is externally imposed and pressured and commitment is internally chosen and intrinsic.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, exactly. And duty in duty, if you make a mistake, it's not a failure of choice or behavior. It's a failure of your humanity.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so connect this back to authenticity. Now, you were saying earlier that we don't talk enough about the price people pay for having to not bring their true selves to work or to home.

[Brene Brown]

Well, yeah, I think there's a lot of interesting research on switching code switching. I think there's a lot of really important work done in that area already. That the price, unfortunately, is not just emotional and cognitive. The physical price of that kind of. Having to be different people all the time is so high.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I was thinking in particular about Patricia Heulin's work on facades of conformity and how when you feel like you have to put on a mask in order to succeed professionally, you see then higher rates of burnout. You see people becoming alienated from themselves. You see extreme stress. And I was starting to think that's what happens in shame bound families too.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, for sure.

[Adam Grant]

You go to Thanksgiving dinner and you have to. You're basically an actor playing a role. And what toll does that take?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I mean, it's really. That's why I think I was gonna try to pull up. Let me pull up and see what the definition. Let's see. Oh, God, I'm scared to look at it, y'. All. I may not agree with my own definition anymore. Do you ever feel like that?

[Adam Grant]

Yes. And then I think, wait a minute. This is a great learning opportunity because.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, do you?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. I think about Danny Kahneman all the time, who said to me, when I realized I was wrong, it means I am now less wrong than I was before. I've learned something great.

[Brene Brown]

I like that. I think. Oh, shit. That's what I think. Let's see.

[Adam Grant]

And we need to get to our. What does this look like if it goes wrong?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Do we have time for that?

[Brene Brown]

Should we do that on the next

[Adam Grant]

episode for episode two?

[Brene Brown]

I really want to Go through. So we are both big fans of.

[Adam Grant]

Wait, don't do it now. Because if we're going to do it in episode two.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, let's do it. Okay. I can't even find the definition, which is really.

[Adam Grant]

We can edit that out.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's being one's true self and setting boundaries to protect one's true self. So I think it's both. The courage to be real, letting go of perfectionism. It's a daily practice. It's a collection of choices. So I think it's still what I think. Um, you're rarely going to find me not having boundaries attached to some definition.

[Adam Grant]

You know, I think that's so important.

[Brene Brown]

But it's usually left out.

[Adam Grant]

It is, and I left it out. My mistake.

[Brene Brown]

But I think we do, too, sometimes in our own work.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I mean, it's. It's hard to communicate in shorthand. Right?

[Brene Brown]

It is.

[Adam Grant]

Capturing all the nuance in a few words is always a challenge.

[Brene Brown]

But it's really interesting that you say that, because we have a writer, like, when we do podcasts, that. Why are you laughing already?

[Adam Grant]

Just keep going.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, that. We have to approve all clips. Because right before I went off social media for almost a year, if I saw myself come up in a feed, in my own feed, which is a nightmare. Do you ever see yourself come up when you're scrolling and you're like, shit,

[Adam Grant]

why am I there?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, why am I there? But I think the thing I hated about it the most is how people were clipping me to seem so certain

[Adam Grant]

and eliminating all the pauses and all of the complexity.

[Brene Brown]

All the complexity. They would ask me a question, like, you know, does the blue jay call, you know, resemble the call of a red bird? And I'd be like, it's a really good question. I'm not sure. In my experience, which is limited, they're very different. And then the answer would be like, does the blue jay. And that. They're very different. Like. And I was like, what about the part where I was like, I'm unsure, you know, Like, I don't know. And then the part behind it that says, but I don't really. I'm not a birder, so you should really ask a birder.

[Adam Grant]

And that's all editing out.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Sucks. That's why I just went off social media. Cause I was like, I don't even trust me in these things. The advice, first of all, I hate giving advice. But just what does the research show? What am I learning? What's worked in my life? I will share, but like, don't trust what's coming out of my mouth when it's been clipped like that.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so no one should clip the Curiosity Shop out of context.

[Brene Brown]

I mean, I hope you don't, but I mean, you're going to. What do you do?

[Adam Grant]

I think you hope that people will engage with the long form and that the short form is. It's a teaser. It's not the whole. It's not the whole concept, not the whole idea.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, it's not even the teaser. It's like a. I don't know, it's.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I mean, it's dessert, but don't skip the meal.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, maybe. Or it's part. It's like it's the plate that holds the ideas that you've clipped the plate but not shared the real ideas that are on the plate. That's dumb.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. But I also think we have a responsibility to take complex research and distill it in a way where people can in short time take an idea and say, oh, I never thought about that. Let me now see if that leads to a change in my experience, my choices, my behaviors.

[Brene Brown]

I disagree.

[Adam Grant]

I'm all for that. Really?

[Brene Brown]

Yes. Well, I think we have the. I think we have a harder job, which is to communicate complexity through story and analogy and metaphor that makes it understandable without reducing its complexity.

[Adam Grant]

Oliver Wendell Holmes. You know this is one of my favorite quotes, right? Okay, so Holmes said something to the effect of. He said. Let me make sure I capture this. Right. He said something like. Well, you can wait. No, fact check me after. Okay. The way I remember the quote is he said, for the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give anything.

[Brene Brown]

I think that's exactly right. Here it is right here.

[Adam Grant]

What does it say?

[Brene Brown]

Okay. For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a figure. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything. I have pretty close.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so what does that mean? Well, I think about that as the

[Brene Brown]

distinction for simplicity on this side of complexity.

[Adam Grant]

You're gonna draw it, aren't you?

[Brene Brown]

No, I'm not thinking about that in my mind, but yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I think for me the distinction there is. There's a difference between ignorance, simplicity and elegance. Simplicity. Oh yeah, ignorant simplicity is naive and it's missing critical information. Elegant simplicity is capturing the nuance in. In few words or in a really well drawn two by two diagram that's so hard. It is really hard but when you do it, it's really sticky.

[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

Are you picking on my hair?

[Brene Brown]

No. Oh my God no. That's funny though. You got a good noggin. Can I say that? Am I allowed to say that?

[Adam Grant]

I don't know. Are you?

[Brene Brown]

I don't know. I think you have a nice noggin.

[Adam Grant]

Well, thank you.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. I don't know where this.

[Adam Grant]

I prefer the apology compliment for the record as a bad compliment acceptor.

[Brene Brown]

You are the worst.

[Adam Grant]

I'm horrible at that. Yeah. I think I did okay today though. On it.

[Brene Brown]

You did. I was trying to find this Fight

[Adam Grant]

you or self deprecate?

[Brene Brown]

No, you didn't.

[Adam Grant]

That's growth. I'll take it.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, and I actually, that's. I love it when you do that. I can't find my fun quote. But they're mostly. I just have like my kids playing stuff. Oh, wait, I can read this one to you. But it's about the feast of Mary, mother of the church in today's gospel reading. I will not share that.

[Adam Grant]

It's not gonna land for me.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, okay.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, Wait. So we're gonna. We need to go to our closing questions.

[Brene Brown]

I really am looking for my quote. Give me two seconds. There are me and Steve at prom. I can't and I don't even care. Like, we don't even have to cut this. Cause this is what real life looks like. But I don't know where this quote is, but I'm going to say it. Maybe you'll probably know it from memory. It's so irritating. It's a quote by a German philosopher that talks about the reason that complex simplicity is so rare is because it's mostly grossly misunderstood and requires some information to get. I'm going to find it and put in the show notes. But like, please do.

[Adam Grant]

By the way, I love the way you just reframed. That is as complex simplicity. That's a great paradox.

[Brene Brown]

But complex simplicity is why metaphor and story and analogy to say, take something complex and then put it in a dimension that people understand.

[Adam Grant]

And poetry too. And this is why we're doing the show. The Curiosity Shop is all about trying to reach complex simplicity in a world that wants easy answers and quick fixes and consumes way too much snake oil.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, my God. We should leave it there. We should thank Canva and we should thank SAS for being kind of launch partner and sponsors with us. We're grateful for that. Okay, so this is exactly how this shit's going down. We have an agenda and we get on a rabbit trail of research. But this is a good conversation. I really appreciated it. And I do really appreciate your commitment to being good at repair and apology. And I can say that it's had an impact on me.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, well, thank you.

[Brene Brown]

Not just on the receiving end of it, but getting better at doing it myself.

[Adam Grant]

Well, but that only happens because I've started to absorb some of your willingness to rumble and have difficult conversations that I was too much of a chicken to have for a lot of my life. And I just don't want to be that person anymore.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, same. I'll work on it with you pinky.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, look. He goes for the fist bump. I go for the pinky promise. All right, first episode in the can. What do we think?

[Adam Grant]

We did it? I don't know. I think we should do our 0 to 10 rating and give each other a note on how we can do better next time.

[Brene Brown]

Okay,

[Adam Grant]

now the 0 to 10 is going to seem too.

[Brene Brown]

No, it's not just a zero to ten.

[Adam Grant]

What's something I. And we can do better next time?

[Brene Brown]

I don't know how to use this.

[Adam Grant]

I don't either. That's why I didn't bring one.

[Brene Brown]

I don't know how to use this, but I want to be able to look up things and get my notes. But maybe that's just like my magical thinking that that's what I want to do. But I do want to use it. But right now we're just staring at a picture of Hannah Waddingham because I really liked her hair and I was wondering what skin products she was using. So this is not what's supposed to be up here.

[Adam Grant]

Focus, Brene, focus.

[Brene Brown]

I know. I can't. I can't. Okay, what was your surprise? Okay, so this really is a surprise question, and I have mixed feelings about it already.

[Adam Grant]

I can tell.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Well, you know, I was just thinking about how we got here, and the preview, I guess, is we got here by disagreeing a lot.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Adam Grant]

And so I was curious about what you think we'll never agree on.

[Brene Brown]

What do I think we will never agree on? Every time I have something that I don't think we're going to agree on, I think we end up agreeing to some degree. But I wonder if Return to work. But under Return to work is. I'm wondering if we'll ever agree. Oh, I think there's a lot of things we're never gonna agree on. Okay. I wonder if under some of the things that we'll never agree on will be fundamentally the conflict between research and lived experience that. I think so many constructs and ideas and theories and strategies that come out of research. Obviously, it's important. I think research is important. I wouldn't be here.

[Adam Grant]

Research professor who.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. But there is. I wonder if we'll agree upon whose responsibility it is to fill the gap between data and theory and then how that shit actually works out on the ground. Like the gap between the idea and the practical reality.

[Adam Grant]

We might never agree on that. Yeah, I think that's right.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I think we'll never agree on it because I think we'll get into a Return to Work. We'll do an episode on Return to Work. Cause I think where I get stuck is scholars who study it. And in order to study it and really have meaning, you have to have some controlled variables, say, oh, you don't need to be back at work. Productivity is fine, blah, blah, blah. But then you have like, Tim Cook, who runs a company at a, what, trillion dollar valuation, who I'm pretty sure knows what he's doing in terms of a creative company and was first to come out and say, everybody, back to work. And so there's a conflict between sometimes I think between research and lived experience that I wonder if we'll ever get there.

[Adam Grant]

I will always trust the evidence over experience.

[Brene Brown]

If I have to choose right, I will always question where the experience or where the research stops being helpful because that's not people's lived experience. And then I don't think I'll attack the research, but I'll say it's hard. I think in our line of work, where, I don't know, I think it's hard. I think this will be a place of struggle.

[Adam Grant]

I think so, too.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Wait, what do you think?

[Adam Grant]

Well, I thought of two.

[Brene Brown]

Okay.

[Adam Grant]

One is text versus email.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, you're just wrong.

[Adam Grant]

No, email is better than text. It's asynchronous. You can do it on your own time. You can file things away. Texts are just never ending and they grab your attention and they take control of your life.

[Brene Brown]

We don't text the same. Then maybe, maybe not. Yeah. Nothing. Okay, so here's this. Nothing comes in to my text. Rarely do things come into my text that are not important. Email. I'm bombarded 90% of the email. I have to filter to find you. Like, I have to filter to find you. And so. And I get overwhelmed by it. And I guess maybe. I also don't share my phone number very much with people. So if you're not like immediate in my life, you don't have my phone number.

[Adam Grant]

I don't either, but why don't you like.

[Brene Brown]

I love texting. We text all the time. You hate it.

[Adam Grant]

No, I mean, I don't hate texting with you, but we're actually having conversations about this show and learning from each other. Right?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

I think for me, most of the communication I have with other people would be so much easier to do by email because I can sit down and do it when it's convenient and then file it away and know where it is. Email is organized. I know exactly how many tasks I have. To do? Text. Just. It's just. It's a mess. I hate texting God. Don't ever text me.

[Brene Brown]

No. That's funny because we text all the time. Okay, what's the other thing?

[Adam Grant]

Okay, the other thing is much, much bigger. Faith.

[Brene Brown]

Faith.

[Adam Grant]

Faith.

[Brene Brown]

I don't. We've never talked about this before.

[Adam Grant]

No, we haven't. But you listed it. When I asked you what your two core values were, you said, faith and courage.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I was like, oh, we are not going to agree on this one.

[Brene Brown]

Why?

[Adam Grant]

I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. But I also don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproven.

[Brene Brown]

I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. Okay.

[Adam Grant]

And I don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproven.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah. We'll disagree on that big time.

[Adam Grant]

Right?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. If it's a mystery that surpasses all human understanding, I'm for it.

[Adam Grant]

I am for being open to the possibility of never having faith in it.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah. No, yeah. We won't agree on that, but I think that's okay. Like. Yeah, I think that's great. Yes.

[Adam Grant]

So I think it's a minor miracle that we've gotten to a place where we can be okay about disagreeing.

[Brene Brown]

Do you believe in miracles?

[Adam Grant]

No, definitely not. Not a chance. You're just baiting me now.

[Brene Brown]

No, no. You walked right into it.

[Adam Grant]

I did.

[Brene Brown]

It wasn't complicated.

[Adam Grant]

No, that's fair. But I do think. I mean, we started out not being okay with disagreeing at all. I think.

[Brene Brown]

Well, I was okay with disagreeing with you because you were wrong. What do you. What's something you think we can do better?

[Adam Grant]

I think. I know. I really enjoyed the. I love how freeform our riffing is.

[Brene Brown]

Same.

[Adam Grant]

I always come away with new ideas and, you know, I think one thing we can do more of. This isn't a better yet, but one thing we can do more of is. I found myself smiling every time you said, I don't agree with that. And that is. We've come a long way from. I was so pissed off when you wrote that. That piece.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

I was shaking. And, you know, I rarely emote. It was. It was a. It was an unusual experience for me. And so to be at a place now where you can say, I disagree.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I'm not bothered. And I'm actually excited to learn and also, you know, debate it a little bit. I love that I think we. We can probably find a little bit more attention intellectually. No.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I don't think we should look for it.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. But I mean, we can have meta tension around that.

[Brene Brown]

I think this is such a great way to wrap it up. I think if we're both authentically who we are.

[Adam Grant]

Have I earned the right to be authentically?

[Brene Brown]

Yes, you have.

[Adam Grant]

You earned the right to see my authenticity.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I think I. I think I have.

[Adam Grant]

Six years ago we were.

[Brene Brown]

No, we were not. But I think if we're both just ourselves here, the tension is going to be organic.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, that's right.

[Brene Brown]

Because we just don't see the world the same way.

[Adam Grant]

Nope.

[Brene Brown]

But we see the same world, which is weird.

[Adam Grant]

And value the same thing.

[Brene Brown]

And we value. Yeah, mostly. Yeah, I think so. Let's do it. Welcome to we're glad you're here. Come back. We'll still be on our first agenda from Podcast one by the end of the season.

[Adam Grant]

Probably.

[Brene Brown]

Fun. Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you.

[Brene Brown]

The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

[Adam Grant]

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning [e-mail]

[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

Quicker than a walk around the park.

[Brene Brown]

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[Adam Grant]

Terms and conditions apply.

[Brene Brown]

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