Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené on Strong Ground Ask Me Anything, Part 2 of 2
Date: November 5, 2025
Podcast Network: Vox Media Podcast Network
Special Guest Mentioned: Adam Grant (Not present in this specific episode segment)

Overview

This episode serves as the concluding chapter of the special "Strong Ground" series, centered on Brené Brown’s new book. Brené addresses a flood of listener questions about the “above and below the line” practice—a cornerstone from her work that tackles how individuals and leaders can effectively navigate fear, reaction, and resilience in a world full of complexity and instability. She candidly shares personal and professional examples while explicitly connecting her framework to the work of past thought leaders, emphasizing attribution and the evolution of this powerful tool.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Above and Below the Line” Practice

• Foundational Concept: The "line" represents fear.
  • Above the line: Aware of fear, but acting intentionally—“driving with awareness.”
  • Below the line: Unaware, acting from fear—fear is in control, typically without conscious acknowledgment.
• Key Roles & Dynamics:
  • Below the line behaviors: Hero, Victim, Villain (aligned with Stephen Karpman’s Drama Triangle).
  • Above the line behaviors: Creator, Challenger, Coach (drawn from David Emerald’s Empowerment Dynamic).

“The line that we’re talking about when we say above, below the line, the line is fear.”
– Brené Brown (04:13)

• Evolution and Attribution:
  • Originated by Robert Kiyosaki; further developed by Carolyn Taylor and the Conscious Leadership Group, incorporating the Drama Triangle and Empowerment Dynamic frameworks.
  • Brené emphasizes the importance of giving proper credit to those who shaped the practice.

2. Practical Application & Real-Life Scenarios

• Personal Example—Handling Mistakes at Work
  • Brené reenacts her typical “below the line” response to an email error (“I’ll do it myself. Clearly no one understands…”), showing shifts between hero, victim, and villain mindsets (10:16-11:05).
  • Contrasts with her “above the line” response: taking a pause, naming her fear, and stepping into creator, challenger, or coach roles (11:20 onward).

“I want you to notice the language: Hero—‘I’ll do it myself.’ Victim—‘No one understands.’ Villain—‘Who’s gonna take the blame for this?’”
– Brené Brown (10:45)

• Cultural Transformation
  • Highlights the ripple effect when entire teams or organizations apply this practice: permission to pause, increased trust, and deeper honesty.
  • Example: a senior leader admits being “below the line” during a feedback session, prompting a productive break and mutual acknowledgment of emotional state (13:53).

“This five minute act of courage is how organizations create strong ground.”
– Brené Brown (15:12)

3. Recognizing Fear & Emotional Triggers

• Fear as a Hidden Driver:
  • Brené discusses how fear often masquerades as anger, especially in environments (like family) where fear is less acceptable.
  • The linguistic “tells” of hero, villain, and victim help her identify when fear is the root issue—even before she consciously feels it.

“Sometimes as soon as I hear myself say something close to one of these things, I know I've got a below the line problem.”
– Brené Brown (16:32)

“Easy does it, Brené. You can be really scary when you’re scared.”
– Brené Brown (17:44)

4. The Practice of Growing “Strong Ground”

• Deliberate Practice & Vulnerability
  • Emphasizes the “muscle building” metaphor: just as physical strength grows through strain, leaders grow resilience by repeatedly working through discomfort and fear.
  • Draws inspiration from Bonnie Choi’s writing about muscle: strength is built through cycles of breakdown and regrowth.

“You get stronger by surviving each series of little breakdowns... In fact, it is the cycle that allows us to exist.”
– Quoting Bonnie Choi, read by Brené Brown (19:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:13] “The line that we’re talking about when we say above, below the line, the line is fear.”
• [10:45] “I want you to notice the language: Hero—‘I’ll do it myself.’ Victim—‘No one understands.’ Villain—‘Who’s gonna take the blame for this?’”
• [11:57] “The awareness of being below the line, naming it and pausing is the big win. That's the door prize, baby.”
• [13:53] Story of a senior leader pausing a difficult feedback conversation:

  "On the team's call, I just stopped us and said, 'I’m below the line. This is not productive. Can we pause and circle back in an hour or so?' ... This exchange sounds simple, but it took courage, vulnerability, and skill."

• [15:12] “This five minute act of courage is how organizations create strong ground.”
• [16:32] “Sometimes as soon as I hear myself say something close to one of these things, I know I've got a below the line problem.”
• [17:44] Self-reflection: “Easy does it, Brené. You can be really scary when you’re scared.”
• [19:50] Quoting Bonnie Choi: “You get stronger by surviving each series of little breakdowns, allowing for ... regrowth, building up, breaking down.”

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Highlight | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:13 | Brené introduces the episode and the focus on the above/below the line practice | | 04:00-09:07 | Deep dive and framework explanation—definitions, roles, and evolution | | 10:16 | Brené’s personal, real-time example of the practice | | 12:00 | Application in team culture and leadership, acknowledgment of practice | | 15:12 | Organizational transformation through this practice | | 16:32 | Recognizing fear through language, hidden emotional cues | | 19:50 | Metaphor of muscle-building and resilience, quoting Bonnie Choi |

Tone & Style

• Direct, warm, and humorous: Brené’s signature vulnerability is present throughout—reading from her book, sharing personal examples, and employing candid self-reflection.
• Actionable and relatable: Focused on making complex emotional dynamics tangible and practical for listeners at home and at work.

Summary

In this pivotal episode, Brené Brown distills her years of research and personal experience into a lucid, actionable explanation of how to lead—both ourselves and others—through complexity by bravely confronting our fear. The “above and below the line” practice is both a diagnostic and a developmental tool, enabling awareness, pausing, and courageous action.

Listeners walk away with concrete language, memorable metaphors, and real-world techniques for fostering cultures of trust, self-awareness, and collective growth. The practice isn’t magic—it’s a muscle, and, as Brené reminds us, building muscle is “the cycle that allows us to exist.”

For those new to the idea or the series, this episode is a practical masterclass in emotional intelligence—a must for any leader, parent, or human navigating uncertain times.