Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change, Part 1 of 2

Date: November 21, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Dr. Lisa Lahey

Episode Overview

In this candid and vulnerable episode, Brené Brown sits down with Dr. Lisa Lahey, Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member and co-author of "Immunity to Change," to unpack why genuine transformation is so difficult for individuals and organizations despite our best intentions. Using Brené’s own leadership challenges as a case study, Lisa guides listeners—and Brené herself—through the immunity to change process, highlighting the unconscious forces that impede real change. Together, they challenge common myths about change, discuss deep-seated motivations, and model how to move from self-blame to awareness and empowerment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Immunity to Change

• Personal Resistance to Change: Brené admits she’s resistant to change, despite considering herself open to it.

  “I don't like to think of myself as someone who's averse to change, but holy shit, am I averse to change.”
  (00:10 – Brené Brown)

• Immunity to Change Defined: Lisa explains that real transformation is often sabotaged by unconscious competing commitments, not a lack of sincerity or willpower.

2. The Myth of Willpower and Transformation

• The “Wanting It Enough” Fallacy: Both agree that motivation is necessary but not sufficient for change.

  “If the change is not happening, it's because you don't want it enough… That is a myth.”
  (09:29 – Brené Brown) “Wanting it really bad is not sufficient enough?... Correct. But you have to want it…But it is not enough because it doesn't actually take into account...these unseen motivations.”
  (10:08 – Lisa Lahey)

• Illustrative Example - Change or Die: Lisa references research showing that even patients facing life-or-death health decisions rarely sustain behavior change, proving good intentions aren’t enough.

  “Less than one person is actually able to make the change. ...There was something more complex going on for them that they did need to access.”
  (12:56 – Lisa Lahey)

3. The Self-Inventory: Confronting How We Work Against Ourselves

• Lisa's Key Process:
  • Start with a clear, personally meaningful goal.
  • Ask: "What are the things you do and don’t do that work against that goal?"
    (15:39 – Lisa Lahey)
• Brené’s Example:
  She wishes to be “more disciplined with my team around regular meetings” but realizes her behavior undermines her goal:
  • Frequently cancels or reschedules meetings
  • Removes herself from meetings
  • Doesn’t prioritize team meetings, overschedules other tasks
  • Fuels a one-off, chaotic communication culture
  • Ultimately, creates the very environment she’s trying to avoid
• Feedback and Reflection:
  Brené involves her colleague Barrett for honest feedback and uncovers the ripple effects of her actions.

4. Self-Blame vs. Self-Accountability

• Common Pitfall: Many leaders, including Brené, blame the system or others, rather than seeing how their own actions contribute to the problem.

  “I never thought about it this way. ...I was system blaming instead of self accountable.”
  (33:20 – Brené Brown)

• Empowerment through Awareness: Naming the self-sabotaging behaviors paradoxically feels both hard and relieving; it restores a sense of agency.

  “It's empowering in some weird way too.”
  (34:14 – Brené Brown)

5. The Inner Cave: Facing Hidden Commitments

• Star Wars Metaphor: Brené likens this self-exploration to Luke Skywalker’s journey into the cave to confront his shadow self.

  “I am in a cave...I said, I don't want to go...And Lisa has said, go, you must.”
  (37:00 – Brené Brown)

• Foundational Realization: Progress depends not only on willpower or surface motivation but on unveiling and working with the deeper, often hidden commitments driving old behaviors.

Notable Quotes

• Lisa Lahey:

  “You can have very sincere intentions. Right. And at the exact same time, you can have a whole other set of unseen forces that are just as real, but because they're not seen, we're not in a position where we can actively make choices about it.”
  (07:27)

• Brené Brown:

  “This is brutal. Whose idea was it to do this on a podcast? Jesus.”
  (28:16)

• Lisa Lahey:

  “It's a collusion. ...But that's a different way of understanding what's going on. We're really just talking about you right now and not the dynamic.”
  (32:00)

• Brené Brown:

  “I have met the enemy. He is me.”
  (34:14)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:08] – Brené introduces Lisa Lahey and describes her own aversion to change
• [04:13] – Lisa joins and discusses aspirations vs. real change resistance
• [06:53 – 12:00] – The myth of willpower, “Change or Die” example, and why motivation isn’t enough
• [14:49] – Lisa outlines her alternative approach: self-inventory of undermining behaviors
• [16:29 – 29:00] – Brené's real-time mapping of her undermining behaviors as a leader
• [32:53] – Brené’s realization about system-blaming and the relief of self-accountability
• [35:35 – 37:00] – Star Wars/Yoda metaphor for facing internal barriers; tee-up for Part 2

Tone & Style

The conversation is unscripted, raw, and often humorous, with Brené’s signature vulnerability and self-deprecation. Lisa’s expert-yet-gentle coaching balances deep compassion with accountability, offering practical tools and honest feedback.

Memorable Moments

• Brené's Willingness to Get Uncomfortable: “This is going to be so personal and vulnerable...if you work with me, don't listen because it's going to be very awkward.” (00:15)
• Real-Time Coaching: Listeners witness Brené doing the work, modeling open learning and discomfort.
• Pop Culture Wisdom: The Star Wars “cave” story to embody the inner journey of real transformation. (36:22)

Conclusion

This episode is an invaluable field guide for anyone struggling with “stuckness” in themselves or their organizations. With vulnerability and clarity, Brené and Lisa dismantle common myths about change, show the power of self-inquiry, and reveal the liberating potential of facing our own “cave.” Part two promises a deeper dive as they explore the hidden commitments and beliefs that sustain our immunity to change.