Brené with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change, Part 1 of 2

Summary

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Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change, Part 1 of 2

Date: November 21, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Dr. Lisa Lahey

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Episode Overview

In this candid and vulnerable episode, Brené Brown sits down with Dr. Lisa Lahey, Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member and co-author of "Immunity to Change," to unpack why genuine transformation is so difficult for individuals and organizations despite our best intentions. Using Brené’s own leadership challenges as a case study, Lisa guides listeners—and Brené herself—through the immunity to change process, highlighting the unconscious forces that impede real change. Together, they challenge common myths about change, discuss deep-seated motivations, and model how to move from self-blame to awareness and empowerment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Immunity to Change

• Personal Resistance to Change: Brené admits she’s resistant to change, despite considering herself open to it.

  “I don't like to think of myself as someone who's averse to change, but holy shit, am I averse to change.”
  (00:10 – Brené Brown)

• Immunity to Change Defined: Lisa explains that real transformation is often sabotaged by unconscious competing commitments, not a lack of sincerity or willpower.

2. The Myth of Willpower and Transformation

• The “Wanting It Enough” Fallacy: Both agree that motivation is necessary but not sufficient for change.

  “If the change is not happening, it's because you don't want it enough… That is a myth.”
  (09:29 – Brené Brown) “Wanting it really bad is not sufficient enough?... Correct. But you have to want it…But it is not enough because it doesn't actually take into account...these unseen motivations.”
  (10:08 – Lisa Lahey)

• Illustrative Example - Change or Die: Lisa references research showing that even patients facing life-or-death health decisions rarely sustain behavior change, proving good intentions aren’t enough.

  “Less than one person is actually able to make the change. ...There was something more complex going on for them that they did need to access.”
  (12:56 – Lisa Lahey)

3. The Self-Inventory: Confronting How We Work Against Ourselves

• Lisa's Key Process:
  • Start with a clear, personally meaningful goal.
  • Ask: "What are the things you do and don’t do that work against that goal?"
    (15:39 – Lisa Lahey)
• Brené’s Example:
  She wishes to be “more disciplined with my team around regular meetings” but realizes her behavior undermines her goal:
  • Frequently cancels or reschedules meetings
  • Removes herself from meetings
  • Doesn’t prioritize team meetings, overschedules other tasks
  • Fuels a one-off, chaotic communication culture
  • Ultimately, creates the very environment she’s trying to avoid
• Feedback and Reflection:
  Brené involves her colleague Barrett for honest feedback and uncovers the ripple effects of her actions.

4. Self-Blame vs. Self-Accountability

• Common Pitfall: Many leaders, including Brené, blame the system or others, rather than seeing how their own actions contribute to the problem.

  “I never thought about it this way. ...I was system blaming instead of self accountable.”
  (33:20 – Brené Brown)

• Empowerment through Awareness: Naming the self-sabotaging behaviors paradoxically feels both hard and relieving; it restores a sense of agency.

  “It's empowering in some weird way too.”
  (34:14 – Brené Brown)

5. The Inner Cave: Facing Hidden Commitments

• Star Wars Metaphor: Brené likens this self-exploration to Luke Skywalker’s journey into the cave to confront his shadow self.

  “I am in a cave...I said, I don't want to go...And Lisa has said, go, you must.”
  (37:00 – Brené Brown)

• Foundational Realization: Progress depends not only on willpower or surface motivation but on unveiling and working with the deeper, often hidden commitments driving old behaviors.

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Notable Quotes

• Lisa Lahey:

  “You can have very sincere intentions. Right. And at the exact same time, you can have a whole other set of unseen forces that are just as real, but because they're not seen, we're not in a position where we can actively make choices about it.”
  (07:27)

• Brené Brown:

  “This is brutal. Whose idea was it to do this on a podcast? Jesus.”
  (28:16)

• Lisa Lahey:

  “It's a collusion. ...But that's a different way of understanding what's going on. We're really just talking about you right now and not the dynamic.”
  (32:00)

• Brené Brown:

  “I have met the enemy. He is me.”
  (34:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:08] – Brené introduces Lisa Lahey and describes her own aversion to change
• [04:13] – Lisa joins and discusses aspirations vs. real change resistance
• [06:53 – 12:00] – The myth of willpower, “Change or Die” example, and why motivation isn’t enough
• [14:49] – Lisa outlines her alternative approach: self-inventory of undermining behaviors
• [16:29 – 29:00] – Brené's real-time mapping of her undermining behaviors as a leader
• [32:53] – Brené’s realization about system-blaming and the relief of self-accountability
• [35:35 – 37:00] – Star Wars/Yoda metaphor for facing internal barriers; tee-up for Part 2

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Tone & Style

The conversation is unscripted, raw, and often humorous, with Brené’s signature vulnerability and self-deprecation. Lisa’s expert-yet-gentle coaching balances deep compassion with accountability, offering practical tools and honest feedback.

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Memorable Moments

• Brené's Willingness to Get Uncomfortable: “This is going to be so personal and vulnerable...if you work with me, don't listen because it's going to be very awkward.” (00:15)
• Real-Time Coaching: Listeners witness Brené doing the work, modeling open learning and discomfort.
• Pop Culture Wisdom: The Star Wars “cave” story to embody the inner journey of real transformation. (36:22)

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Conclusion

This episode is an invaluable field guide for anyone struggling with “stuckness” in themselves or their organizations. With vulnerability and clarity, Brené and Lisa dismantle common myths about change, show the power of self-inquiry, and reveal the liberating potential of facing our own “cave.” Part two promises a deeper dive as they explore the hidden commitments and beliefs that sustain our immunity to change.

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Transcript

[Brene Brown]

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown and this is Dare to lead. Oh my God. We're going to get about as close as I'm ever going to get to having like a podcast public therapy session. I am talking with the amazing Lisa Leahy. She is a Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member who has built a body of work to help learners and leaders overcome the innate human aversion to change. Now, I don't like to think of myself as someone who's averse to change, but holy shit, am I averse to change. There's this whole immunity to change theory about how change happens, why it's so hard. And I thought we were gonna academically discuss it. But then she takes me on this personal journey of trying to change something in my life that I desperately want to change, but just seemingly cannot change. No matter how hard I've tried for the last couple of years. It's almost as bad as giving up caffeine free Diet Coke. It's probably even worse because, no, I don't know, it's about the same. But I'm glad you're here. It's going to be so personal and vulnerable and if you work with me, don't listen because it's going to be very awkward.

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[Brene Brown]

All right, so before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Leahy. Lisa again. Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member Lisa and her long, long time collaborator Robert Keegan are credited with a breakthrough discovery, the immunity to change, a dynamic which impedes personal and organizational transformation. Her work helps people to close the gap between. They're good. I'm laughing because I got a big gap to close the gap between their good intentions and behaviors. We're going to work it. I'm going to work the program with her, guiding me through on something that's really real and vulnerable and hard. Lisa is also the founder of Minds at Work, a coaching and consulting firm serving businesses and institutions around the world. She's on the faculty at the Harvard University Graduate School of Education. She's an expert in adult development and an experienced educator and executive coach. If you're a coach, this will be a masterclass in coaching for you. She works with leaders and leadership teams in both for profit and nonprofit organizations. She currently leads and teaches the Personal Mastery Program in Harvard's Education, Leadership, Organizations and Entrepreneurship program. It's a degree designed to advance equity, access, agency, and excellence in education. Her passion for adult education, women's development, diversity and inclusion, and care for the ages have earned her special attention from the healthcare, nonprofit and education sectors. She's got many books, including Immunity to Change from Harvard Business Press. We will link to all of her books. She's also a passionate pianist and a nature lover. She's got two married sons and lives in Cambridge with her husband. Cambridge, Massachusetts. Let's go. Buckle yourself in and watch me. God. Barrett just said squirm. It's probably a good one. Watch me squirm.

[Lisa Leahy]

You look great.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, my God, you're just beaming.

[Lisa Leahy]

You look great.

[Brene Brown]

I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm like a kid in a candy store.

[Lisa Leahy]

Here we are. Mutual admiration society.

[Brene Brown]

Oh. I mean, I'm grateful for that. And I have to tell you, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna be completely honest with you. I want your guidance personally and professionally around change. Just to be honest with you. And I've read you, I read your work, I've read your books, but I want to dig in for me and for all of the Dare to Lead listeners. Can you walk us through why we all want to transform and no one wants to change?

[Lisa Leahy]

Oh, that's such an interesting question. We all want to transform, but I.

[Brene Brown]

Don'T want to change. I'll give you an example. Just right now, my sister's in the room and she said, I'm going to grab a drink. Do you want something for the podcast? And I said, oh, I'm giving up sugar free drinks. I'm only trying to have one caffeine free Diet Coke a day. But you know what? Screw it, I'm going to have it right now. I know that this is probably bad for me.

[Lisa Leahy]

Right?

[Brene Brown]

What is the deal?

[Lisa Leahy]

Well, I would say that the wish to transform is the pull, the aspiration. It's the carrot for us. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And we are filled with those. And I think the reality is that we are also filled with a whole set of other motivations that are not so noble or we're not so conscious about. And that the reality is that most of the time, unless we become aware of those unconscious other motivators, they are in control of us, and we are kind of at their mercy. So even though we can have very wise wishes and intentions for our aspirations, if we don't get this other piece into the equation of what else is going on simultaneously, we will remain kind of stuck, or we might inch our way, make a little bit of progress, and then kind of back to go.

[Brene Brown]

So this is really interesting to me because I do a lot of change work in organizations, and the desire, the commitment to change is solid. It's real. It's not bullshit. It's not. I mean, sometimes it is, and sometimes it's just like this is. We're supposed to be changing this. But I go into some organizations where if you put these people on a group lie detector, the change aspiration is 100% real.

[Lisa Leahy]

It's sincere. Absolutely. So I think that actually what you're getting to is often a kind of mistaken sense we have that if we are unable to make the change we want to, that the intention must not be very sincere. And all the work that I do is very much to help show people that is not what's actually going on. You can have very sincere intentions. Right. And at the exact same time, you can have a whole other set of unseen forces that are just as real, but because they're not seen, we're not in a position where we can actively make choices about it. So that's what takes us over. And that will be always the default.

[Brene Brown]

I'm working through one of your books right now, and I'm doing my own graph and I'm doing my own math.

[Lisa Leahy]

Great.

[Brene Brown]

Hard as hell.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Like, you really can't bluff.

[Lisa Leahy]

Well, good for you. I'm glad you're not. Because, you know, you could take it at whatever level you want to take it. And I would say that's part of the invitation to create an immunity to change map is to invite people to be taking a next step with wherever they are. And the process itself takes you where you are, and it helps you to normalize that all those things that you do that work against yourself are coming out of a really rich and well earned place in your life. And if you're ready to take a look at that, great. If you don't, you can ride the surface and then begin to imagine, oh, okay, I kind of get this. Or I'm not ready for it. Or you get it and you're really ready for it and you jump two feet in and everything in between.

[Brene Brown]

That's really helpful to know. Okay, so start from the beginning. So I've already got mind blower number one, which is if the change is not happening, it's because you don't want it enough.

[Lisa Leahy]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

That is a myth.

[Lisa Leahy]

Absolutely right.

[Brene Brown]

You know that everybody believes that. Right.

[Lisa Leahy]

Well, let me just say I think motivation does matter. And if you don't want it, it ain't gonna happen. But it's not sufficient, and I think that's key.

[Brene Brown]

Wait, wanting it really bad is not sufficient enough?

[Lisa Leahy]

Correct. But you have to want it. So I want to say both of those things. Yes, you need to want to make the change, but just wanting to make the change, even if it's sincere in every single way. And you can think of all the things that are going to be best, better for you and for others and so on. And you can think about all the ways that you will be less burdened. And you go through a whole exercise around like my core motivations. I'm with it, I'm ready to go. Right. And that's great. But it is not enough because it doesn't actually take into account what I was earlier describing as these unseen motivations that are there nonetheless and will be working at cross purposes. And if you don't get get to see the unseen, they will continue to keep working at cross purposes.

[Brene Brown]

You know what this reminds me of? It's hard when I apply it to myself because I'm like, you just don't want it enough. You just don't want it enough. And I'm like, God, that's not true. I don't want anything more in the world than some of the things I want to change.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

But you know what this reminds me of and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. It reminds me of change or die.

[Lisa Leahy]

Ah, yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Can you tell us about that?

[Lisa Leahy]

The change or die is a reference in my mind which tell me if this is what you' thinking to the research that was done where you've got seriously at risk heart patients being told by their doctor that they are going to die if they do not make changes. And that's a. There you have it. You would hope people in that situation have very high motivation to change. Right. Because it's pretty clear their doctors are telling them this is it. You have to say yes to this or it's the end. And what a lot of the change literature would say is that would be a ripe condition for people to make the change. Very high motivation. It's clear what the behavior change is that's needed. You know, it's very clear. Right, right. Stop, stop smoking, lose weight, whatever it is. It's clear behavior changes and you've got high incentives. But the stats on that are less than one person is actually able to make the change. And on the one hand, you could look at the, oh, isn't that wonderful? One person made the change. But the reality is far more people were unable to make the change. And it's easy to fall into an ungenerous way of interpreting what was happening for those six people and say they just didn't care about themselves or they what? There's a lot of bad things we can say about these people.

[Brene Brown]

Well, let's say it, because I think not, because we usually judge others, unless sometimes we do. But a lot of times we're the six out of seven that don't change. Like I would say, not smart enough, not disciplined enough, not enough willpower.

[Lisa Leahy]

Right. Lazy.

[Brene Brown]

Lazy. Oh, I hate that word.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brene Brown]

But I would probably say those things. Yeah.

[Lisa Leahy]

And the lazy one is a very big thing, I think, that comes up for people. It's a lot of the self talk of people who want to be taking better care of their bodies, that I just don't have what it takes to do this. I just, you know, I guess it's the flip side of the not having enough discipline. But I think all of those are such ungenerous interpretations because mostly we have one model of change that we all rely on. And that model of change basically is the willpower or the New Year's resolution model of change. And you know, the two go hand in hand. It's just that one happens at the beginning of, you know, change January. But that is very much a willpower kind of a model. And because that is the main way we all think change happens, we understandably go about trying to make the change using the best of what we know. And sometimes that can work. And so I would say that's probably why for that one person, they are able to make the change. But for the other people who weren't able to make the change, it's because there was something more, more complex going on for them that they did need to access. And that particular change model doesn't give you any kind of purview or perch on what is also going on inside of you.

[Brene Brown]

So walk us through what you've learned. Give us an alternative.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes. So it starts with the same want and wish to change. In this clarity, I want to change. X the way we go about really enabling people to make change is then to just say, let's be honest with ourselves and take a moment of doing a self inventory of all the ways we work against ourselves relative to that goal. And let's be clear, this is not to blame you or shame you. This is just to face what is.

[Brene Brown]

So let me stop you there and I want you to ask that question again. What is the question?

[Lisa Leahy]

The question is, what are the things you do and don't do that work against that goal you just named for yourself?

[Brene Brown]

Okay. So I know just because I'm doing this work right now, this is a hard question.

[Lisa Leahy]

It's hard because, Seymour.

[Brene Brown]

You know, I think about this in the context of leadership and organizational development, but I find that your work has extraordinary application in personal life as well. Do you agree?

[Lisa Leahy]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Lisa Leahy]

And thankfully.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, thankfully. So maybe we can work an example.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Would that be okay?

[Lisa Leahy]

Absolutely.

[Brene Brown]

Let's work a work and maybe we'll kind of simultaneously work a work one and a personal one. So clarity about what I want to change, I want to get more disciplined with my team around regular meetings.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay. Okay, Great. And can we take a moment to connect with. Why is that important to you?

[Brene Brown]

Because I know intellectually that the key to freedom is discipline and routine. I know that in order to not get pecked to death, if I set up time where people can expect it, we follow through on it and there's time available for us to meet. That will collapse the need for 100 emails and Slack messages that feel overwhelming and out of control and not efficient. It would be much more efficient to have predictable, regularly scheduled meetings.

[Lisa Leahy]

Great. So I hear in what you just said, your life will be easier. There'll be more of a. It's going to come together. We will make this happen. Now it doesn't get all pieced out and stressed out. So that's one thing. And you're also saying that when we can meet in person, something's going to.

[Brene Brown]

Be able to happen.

[Lisa Leahy]

You're trusting that.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, I think life will be easier. I think the work product will be better.

[Lisa Leahy]

Great. And.

[Brene Brown]

It will have a great ripple effect for the larger team. We will be a Fully functioning part of a larger system and be able to deliver on that.

[Lisa Leahy]

Beautiful. That's great. So lots of different levels at which you got goodies going on there. And that's great to be connected with your motivation. And it sounds like this is. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if you were to give this a rating on a one to five scale, one being not very important and five being extremely, what would you say this is?

[Brene Brown]

I'll ask you this question because I don't know. We are definitely not going to be able to get to where we need to go without it. We will fail without it.

[Lisa Leahy]

That's big.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Lisa Leahy]

Wow. Okay, so that's. I mean, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that sounds like it's extremely important if you want to succeed.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, for sure. If we want to succeed. It's a irreducible requirement.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay, so I'll turn it back to you if you were to say on one to five. Okay, five.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, it's a five.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay. So get with that with yourself. This is your goal. You want to be more disciplined in meeting with your team, more disciplined in setting up the meetings and being in the meetings. And these are all your reasons why it's extremely important. Okay, great. I want to say one thing to you before I head to the next column because I just want to make this clear to other people why that's a really good goal. The features of what you've said are really rich because you have identified what's in your control. This is about you being more disciplined around these meetings. And you're not asking the team to be better performing. Like, oh, I have this great goal. Let them be better. You know, do better. You see what is in your hand and it's, if I could be more disciplined in having these meetings we're on, it's all going to be good. So that's really important because it implicates you.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. As opposed to saying, my goal is to have a higher performing team.

[Lisa Leahy]

Exactly, exactly. Because you've now put it on you.

[Brene Brown]

I'm setting a goal over which I have some control.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes. It's all up to you. It's not just some control.

[Brene Brown]

No, no, it is.

[Lisa Leahy]

Right. That's great.

[Brene Brown]

So I do like the fact that I set a goal because I remember when I was setting goals, maybe in graduate school, I remember asking my students to set a goal. And I remember very specifically, one person said, I want my friends from high school to freak out when they see how great I look at our 10 year reunion. I love that. I mean, yeah, and I was like, good on you. Except you have no control over how they're going to respond when you walk into your 10 year reunion. And that is a very dangerous goal because this is how we get from goal setting to shame.

[Lisa Leahy]

Such a good point. Yes. Because we're putting our well being in other people's hands when we have a goal that is oriented towards wanting people to see us in a certain way.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, that's such a better way to put it.

[Lisa Leahy]

Dangerous.

[Brene Brown]

I just said, oh, that sounds shamey. Yeah, I love that.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes.

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I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, and on my podcast we've been talking about the future of AI and media for what seems like forever. But what if I told you that future is already. So at what point, if any, does a human get involved before it gets sent to my inbox?

[Brene Brown]

Not at all.

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[Preet Bharara]

Is gun reform a matter of law or culture?

[Brene Brown]

There are more people who are gun enthusiasts today who believe guns are a good thing for them and this safety of their homes, regardless of whether the public health data supports that or not.

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I'm Preet Bharara and this week the president of Everytown for Gun Safety, John Feinblatt and Second Amendment scholar Adam Winkler, joined me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Preet. We discuss the state of gun violence in this country, the biggest mistakes Democrats have made in seeking reform, and why the best prospect for meaningful change may take place outside the courts. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, so I've got a good goal.

[Lisa Leahy]

Because it's on you and it's very important.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. Okay, great.

[Lisa Leahy]

Those are two really crucial dimensions of it. Plus, you've stated affirmatively what you want to be doing, which is also a good feature of a powerful goal for some kind of a change thing. It's not just what you don't want to do, it's what you want to be moving towards.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, okay, I don't like that, but.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay, okay, you don't like that.

[Brene Brown]

What am I going to say when I want to give up Diet Coke? I'm not going to say I want to drink more water because I don't want to drink more water. I want to drink more Diet Coke.

[Lisa Leahy]

But what you could say is, what actually is. If you go to the source of your motivation, what ultimately is that on behalf of health and longevity, I'm guessing it's about wanting to make better choices about what you put in your body. And then what happens, which is where we're going to head next, is when you ask yourself what you were saying you're finding hard, which is when you ask yourself the question, what am I doing? And not doing that works against that goal. You would say, I drink Diet Coke. That works against the goal of being more intentional about what I put into my body.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. All right. Let's go back then to more discipline. Scheduled meetings make my life easier, work product better, and make better contributions to the larger system that is our organization. It's a level five. So my two questions are.

[Lisa Leahy]

What are you yourself, nobody else? What are you doing? And not doing that works against that goal of being more disciplined about meeting with your team.

[Brene Brown]

Like, honestly?

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

That's too bad. Okay, what am I not doing? What am I doing that works against it?

[Lisa Leahy]

So, for example, it might be I schedule these, and then I say, I can't make it.

[Brene Brown]

I do that sometimes.

[Lisa Leahy]

I'm not attributing that to you. I'm just using it illustratively.

[Brene Brown]

No, I do. I cancel and reschedule too often.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay.

[Brene Brown]

There's a bigger one, though. It's the deep one.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay.

[Brene Brown]

Because my job is weird because I have a leadership role, but I also am the chief kind of creative person. I feel like any scheduled disciplined time on my calendar is a threat.

[Lisa Leahy]

Got it.

[Brene Brown]

To my creativity.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay. So I'm going to hold off with that because now you're getting into what is some of the. That hidden energy source that is going to be working against your goal.

[Brene Brown]

So I guess I cancel and reschedule too often.

[Lisa Leahy]

Exactly.

[Brene Brown]

I try to shift systems so I don't have to be in meetings, and then I always regret it.

[Lisa Leahy]

So help me to see how that works against the being more disciplined meeting with your team.

[Brene Brown]

I say, you know what? I don't need to be in this meeting. I'll let y' all handle it.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay.

[Brene Brown]

And then there are some barriers that only I can remove and some answers only I can give. So I shirk.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay. Shirk. Yeah. So the behavior then is I take myself off the list thinking I don't need to be at that meeting. Is that a fair way to capture what you're saying? Yes, it's a nice way, because you are going through a process of saying I don't need to be there.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, Yeah, I do. I take myself off the list, and then I question why. Then again, driving everyone in the meeting to come at me one at a time in an individual slack channel, getting.

[Lisa Leahy]

What they need, which inadvertently feeds the scenario you were describing at the very beginning of a lot more kind of chaotic communications.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah. So it has the unintended consequence.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Lisa Leahy]

But the behavior. Let's just stick with the behavior. So I have. I cancel and reschedule is one thing you do that works against your important goal. And the second thing is I take myself off the list, the meeting list.

[Brene Brown]

I also over schedule. I'm not realistic about my time.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay, and when you say you over schedule, do those have to do with these meetings not having to do with your team? So there's no real room left for you to meet with your team? Okay.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Lisa Leahy]

All right. So.

[Brene Brown]

So I don't prioritize, maybe.

[Lisa Leahy]

Exactly. I don't prioritize my team meetings. Setting team meetings.

[Brene Brown]

Yep.

[Lisa Leahy]

Great.

[Brene Brown]

This is brutal. Whose idea was it to do this on a podcast? Jesus. Okay. But you know what? It comes up a lot in with leaders that I work with, so I think it's fair.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes. Yes.

[Brene Brown]

And it's true. So that makes it. That's. That's irrelevant if it's fair or not. It's true.

[Lisa Leahy]

And it's a very brunet thing to do because there you are, you know, you're just facing into what is right. It is.

[Brene Brown]

This is. I love it. Okay.

[Lisa Leahy]

I love it. So we don't have to go through all the behaviors, but if it seems to you like there's another one big thing, you know, you do or don't do that works against your really important goal to be more disciplined. Is there anything else? Just a quick scan.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. Watch this. Barrett asking feedback, is there something. Yeah. Is there something I do or don't do in this area other than canceling and rescheduling, Taking myself off the list, not prioritizing. Is there something else I do?

[Lisa Leahy]

I feel like you're setting me up here.

[Brene Brown]

No, I really want to know the feedback.

[Lisa Leahy]

I think the hardest part is that you hold the connective tissue because people come to you individually, and I don't think that's on you.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. So what she said is, it's interesting because this may be a consequence of this, but when it goes from a scheduled discipline team meeting to 10 people coming to me individually, all of a sudden the context and connective tissue is lost for the whole organization. And I Start to have to hold that. Which is why I said we could better contribute to the system as a whole if I had these discipline meetings. Got it.

[Lisa Leahy]

Absolutely Makes sense. That is a big unintended consequence.

[Brene Brown]

It's huge.

[Lisa Leahy]

The behavior I think you're engaged in, and you tell me if this seems accurate, is that you say yes to the one offs.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, I do. And it pisses people off. I do. If I had a dollar for every time someone said, how did this person get this information for you? Are you in an individual Slack channel? Like, we had a meeting on this. Why weren't you at the meeting? Oh, like she's going crazy now. Okay, Barrett, I get it. I hear it, I feel seen. I get it. So I. What was the way you lovingly put it? You go away, Barrett. I'm talking to Lisa.

[Lisa Leahy]

I say yes to the one offs.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yes. Yeah. It's worse than that.

[Lisa Leahy]

How so?

[Brene Brown]

I perpetuate the one offs. I set that up.

[Lisa Leahy]

So I definitely hear how you're creating the conditions where people will ask for the one offs.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, I create the condition for a one off culture, which is a culture killer.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah. And that's a way you reinforce a problematic dynamic. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

I just wanna say right now, by executive order, that no one that works here is allowed to listen to this podcast. So how are we framing that, Lisa? I create the conditions of the one offs.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

What is it?

[Lisa Leahy]

Yeah, I think it's good enough to say I say yes to the one offs and I keep saying yes.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Lisa Leahy]

That's the behavior that you're engaged in. And then what is happening from a dynamics perspective, which doesn't have to go into your column, is people then end up keeping up with the. This is the best way to be in touch with you. And she will say yes. And so. Okay, great. Except of course, they also know it's unfortunate this is how it's happening. But they're also. It's a collusion. But that's a different way of understanding what's going on. We're really just talking about you right now and not the dynamic.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, all right, well, I do that. Should I add that then I'm resentful about the one offs.

[Lisa Leahy]

Does that impact your behavior?

[Brene Brown]

No, it doesn't change them. I keep doing them.

[Lisa Leahy]

Okay, so I would just say we're trying to stick in the second inquiry here to just the behaviors you engage in and that you don't engage in. So you've got a lot of rich stuff here. So let me just check with you. How does it feel to be coming to and writing down some of these things that you've just said about how you work against yourself.

[Brene Brown]

I had no idea. And I'm kind of embarrassed by that because I do leadership and organizational development work. But I never thought about it this way. I never thought. I knew I should be doing these things. I was never aware of how I was working against myself. Yeah, I was system blaming instead of self accountable.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

What is the face you're making at me right now? Like, do you hear this a lot? No.

[Lisa Leahy]

Oh, no. Well, I would say most people don't have the language that you have and the level of understanding of how they're putting it onto other people. You know, when you say system blaming versus basically your self responsibility here. And I love that that's what you're getting out of this so far, which is, yes, I have a goal and I see how I'm working against it. You know how we talked about in the forming of the goal, you want to have something you have control over. Well, in this next inquiry, which I'm calling column two, this is also you're really looking just turn to yourself because you are the only person you have control over. And it's your behaviors and lack of certain behaviors that you can control. Right.

[Brene Brown]

It's empowering in some weird way too. Yes.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes. Right?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Lisa Leahy]

So this is the part that of the whole immunity to change exercise that can be very, firstly illuminating and relieving for some people. It can be illuminating because it's like, you know what? I was so actively busy looking at everybody else's hand and all of this, I didn't realize I'm actually doing some things that are working against my goal. So that unto itself does feel empowering because it's like, oh, wow, you know, I have met the enemy. He's me. You know, the poco quote. So that can be empowering, but it can also be relieving because if I can see how I have a hand things, I can control that.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I'm feeling. I'm having like a holy shit moment.

[Lisa Leahy]

Say more.

[Brene Brown]

No, just that I am perpetuating the exact behavior that is depleting me.

[Lisa Leahy]

Yes. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, I want to stop here. Lisa, are you game for another 30 minutes a part two of the podcast?

[Lisa Leahy]

Of course.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, we're going to stop here. We're talking with Lisa Leahy about immunity to change. She has been so generous in taking me through the process. This is like. This is like that moment in the swamp where like, Luke Skywalker is getting to Talk directly to Yoda and really. And then Luke Skywalker feels this really strange energy coming out of this cave, and he turns to Yoda and says, this feels terrible. What's in there? And Yoda says, afraid. You should be afraid.

[Lisa Leahy]

And.

[Brene Brown]

Luke says, I'm not going in there. And then Yoda says, and you must go. And so Luke grabs his lightsaber and walks in. And as he's kind of leaving, Yoda goes, weapons you will not need. And Luke kind of smiles and laughs. And Luke goes into the cave, and of course, he's in there for two seconds before he sees Darth Vader. And they pull their lightsabers out and they start dueling. And Luke. Luke Skywalker cuts off the head of Darth Vader, and the head rolls on the ground, and Vader's mask comes off. But it's Luke.

[Lisa Leahy]

I've never watched this. And what you have just described is such an amazingly concise light shadow description.

[Brene Brown]

It is a light shadow. Oh, yes. Because who helped with the scene?

[Lisa Leahy]

I don't know. Who?

[Brene Brown]

Joseph Campbell?

[Lisa Leahy]

No.

[Brene Brown]

Swear to God.

[Lisa Leahy]

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that's profound, right?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. It's like having Carl Jung in a space movie. Okay, so I am in a cave. I said, I don't want to go. And Lisa has said, go, you must. And now we're going to come back. Stay tuned for part two. Let's figure out what happen. Okay. I told y' all that this was gonna be real and hard. It gets even harder, I think, in part two, because we get to the part where I was gonna say something really negative, but then I can just hear Lysa in my head where I need to learn in the open and look at some of the commitments I have. I was gonna call it self sabotage, but it's not. Some of the existing unexcavated commitments that I have that are under my awareness that are preventing me from changing. Go to brenebrown.com, look up dare to Lead podcast, and look up the podcast with Lysa, and you'll get links to all of her programs. I'm also gonna put the link in I referenced. I thought it was a TED Talk. She should have a TED Talk, but she's got an amazing talk on this process. We'll put a link to that as well. And thank you for being here. Part two coming up. Y' all stay awkward, brave, and kind. Dare to Lead is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. Music is by the sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows at podcasts.voxmedia.com I just gotta get out most days.

[Lisa Leahy]

You see I like walking around it's.

[Brene Brown]

Good for me could you just tell me where we could go here? Take me to the good towns I just gotta get out those days you see I like walking around is good for me could you tell me where.

[Lisa Leahy]

We could go eat?

[Brene Brown]

Take me to the good town.