Dare to Lead with Brené Brown
Episode: Brené with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change, Part 2
Date: November 28, 2022
Podcast Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

Episode Overview

In this powerful, deeply personal episode, Brené Brown continues her conversation with Dr. Lisa Lahey, Harvard faculty member and co-creator of the Immunity to Change model. Together, they walk through the Immunity to Change framework step-by-step, using Brené’s own struggles with organizational discipline as a real-time example. The episode combines masterful coaching, psychological insight, and the vulnerability that’s become Brené’s trademark, revealing why even our sincerest efforts at change often stall – and what lies beneath that resistance.

Main Theme

Unpacking the Real Reasons Behind Resistance to Change
Brené and Lisa dive into why even high-achieving, self-aware leaders have difficulty changing well-established patterns, especially when powerful, largely unexamined commitments and assumptions are at play. The episode demystifies the four-column Immunity to Change process, exploring how deeply held (often hidden) beliefs and fears can undermine our efforts toward personal and organizational transformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Change

• Most Change Models Rely on Willpower:
  Brené reflects that most people only know the “willpower/New Year’s resolution” change model, which rarely leads to lasting transformation.
  “Unless you want to swim in a vat of shame by January 20, do not set those resolutions.” (Brené, 04:15)
• Personal Stakes:
  Brené shares her “column 1 goal”: being more disciplined about scheduling recurring meetings with her team to avoid feeling overwhelmed and depleted.
  • She identifies her exhaustion as a barrier to accepting new, exciting opportunities and maintaining boundaries for her health and family. (06:22)

2. Honest Self-Reflection on Unhelpful Behaviors (Column 2)

• Behavior Patterns Undermining the Goal:
  • Canceling and rescheduling meetings.
  • Removing herself from attendee lists.
  • Not prioritizing team meetings.
  • Enabling a “one-off” communication culture.
  • Saying yes to direct, unplanned requests that create chaos.
    “I enable the one-off communication culture that’s actually killing me.” (Brené, 09:22)
• Self-Judgment:
  Both discuss the tendency towards harsh self-judgment and how it rarely drives real change.
  “For a lot of people, truly the way they motivate themselves is to talk shit to themselves... No, there's zero evidence to support that that works.” (Lisa, 13:18)

3. The Role of Action Bias

• Desire to Skip to Problem-Solving:
  They highlight the universal human desire to immediately try to “fix” behaviors before fully understanding the deeper forces at play.
  “I’m dying to go to action bias sport mode to just change them… I do not wanna go to the third column.” (Brené, 16:55)
• Lisa’s Guidance:
  Lisa cautions against this bias and urges Brené to stay with the discomfort of uncovering hidden commitments.

4. Excavating Hidden Competing Commitments (Column 3)

• Fear of Losing Freedom or Creativity:
  • Brené’s biggest fear about scheduling regular meetings: it will “suffocate” her creativity and joy.
  • “If I prioritize these meetings... I would lose access to the time that creating requires. That’s my joy, that’s when I come alive.” (Brené, 22:14)
• Fear of Being an Inaccessible Leader:
  • If she sets boundaries on “one-off” requests, Brené fears she’ll fail her values and seem out of touch, blocking the flow of work.
  • “I’m not walking my talk... I’m the thing getting in the way of good work.” (Brené, 25:51)

5. Understanding the Systemic Nature of Resistance

• Immunity as a Self-Protection System:
  • Lisa explains that these hidden, well-intentioned (but unspoken) commitments create an internal immune system that preserves the status quo.
  • “These are commitments to just be really explicit that are on behalf of protecting ourselves, protecting our image. It just happens to be that when you look at these two goals... they are at cross purposes and basically creating a system which we call the immune system, where you’ve got a lot of energy trapped... keeping you in the status quo.” (Lisa, 29:06)

6. Big Assumptions (Column 4): The Root of Stuckness

• Naming the Big Assumption:

  • The core, unexamined belief: “Being disciplined is incompatible with being creative.”
    “That’s a big assumption — that to be disciplined is incompatible with being a creative.” (Brené, 34:34)
  • Brené realizes she’s internalized the idea that discipline means someone else controlling how she creates, which feels stifling.
  • “I assumed that being disciplined is someone telling me how to be creative... I never thought... that actually being disciplined in other parts of your life gave you more room for your wild creative processes.” (Brené, 39:19)

• Testing Big Assumptions:

  • Lisa encourages collecting data that might contradict or expand the assumption, rather than seeking only evidence to confirm it.
  • Brené notes her discipline in fitness (pickleball, workouts) has actually increased her creative energy, disproving the old assumption.
  • “That discipline fuels my creativity... that completely busts that myth.” (Brené, 41:13)

7. The Path Forward: Intentional, Experimental Action

• Learning from Action:
  • Lisa reframes the goal: don’t act for a quick fix, but take intentional action aimed at learning about the accuracy of your big assumptions.
    “Do your action bias, but make sure you learn from it... It’s about taking really intentional action and seeing what happens.” (Lisa, 52:49)
  • Testing new approaches (ex: changing meeting formats) serves as data gathering, helping rewire neural pathways and open up new possibilities for sustainable change.

8. The Human Side of Growth: Compassion and Discomfort

• The Role of Self-Compassion:
  • Both emphasize the necessity of compassion as you face your own limiting stories.
  • “If you can let yourself just see what is... to allow yourself the humanity of this is what we all do... That’s one big step.” (Lisa, 46:09)
• Holding Paradox:
  • Being stuck does not mean being broken; both old and new commitments can be honored for what they’ve achieved.
  • “Thank you. I had to do these things to write six books and build this business... They're not serving me the same anymore.” (Brené, 32:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Brené on Willpower Models of Change:
  “Unless you want to swim in a vat of shame by January 20, do not set those resolutions.” (04:15)

• Lisa on Self-Criticism and Motivation:
  “For many of us, that kind of self-berating is like, well, that's how I work myself up... But...that is not going to ultimately help you.” (13:18)

• Brené on Uncovering Hidden Fears:
  “I have a commitment to not drowning in the details... to not being an inaccessible leader, and... to not being a leader who doesn’t walk your talk. Truer commitment statements have never been read.” (27:34)

• Lisa, summarizing the systemic nature of resistance:
  “They are at cross purposes and basically creating a system which we call the immune system, where you’ve got a lot of energy trapped in that system, basically keeping you in the status quo.” (29:06)

• Brené’s realization about creativity and discipline:
  “I assumed that being disciplined is someone telling me how to be creative... It didn’t mean putting discipline in parts of my life that allow for more of my wild creative processes.” (39:19)

• Lisa on creating new mental pathways:
  “You want to build a whole new highway inside your mind that has you making a new, now more data-informed way of understanding the world.” (56:09)

• Brené, capturing the challenge:
  “We are brick by brick laying a new neural pathway out of a bat of assumption.” (56:13)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Epiphanies about Change Models – 04:00–05:35
• Identifying Problematic Behaviors – 08:00–13:00
• Column 3: Hidden Competing Commitments – 19:59–27:34
• Big Assumptions and Insight – 33:57–41:32
• Testing Assumptions and Creating New Possibilities – 41:32–44:11
• Practical Advice for Listeners – 50:45–54:42
• On Compassion and Staying with Discomfort – 47:32–49:26
• Rapid Fire Personal Questions – 58:21–62:51

Resources & Further Learning

• Lisa Lahey’s Book: Immunity to Change (Harvard Press), notably Chapter 9 for a step-by-step guide.
• Additional Materials: Lisa recommends searching for her and Robert Kegan’s online talks and articles for demonstrations of the framework.
• Oprah and VOX articles: Additional resources for understanding the Immunity to Change process.

Closing Reflection

This episode is a masterclass in self-discovery and conscious leadership. Brené courageously models the discomfort and liberation that come with examining hidden assumptions, while Lisa provides steady, insightful facilitation. Listeners gain both a map for their own change efforts and reassurance that resistance is natural, protective, and—importantly—surmountable with openness, experimentation, and self-compassion.

“Stay awkward, brave, and kind—and dig into this process for yourself. It is as illuminating as it is difficult.” (Brené, 64:09)