Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 1 of 2

Summary

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Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 1 of 2

Date: December 5, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Mike Erwin

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Brené Brown sits down with Mike Erwin—founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center, Team Red, White, and Blue, and the Positivity Project, and co-author of Lead Yourself First. The focus is on Mike's new book, Leadership Is a Relationship, which explores the foundational role of relationships in effective leadership. Together, Brené and Mike unpack why prioritizing relationships is essential for leaders, how solitude connects to relationship building, and dive into three key functions of relationship-centered leadership: accountability, forgiveness, and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Mike Erwin

• Brené’s relationship with Mike goes back over a decade, rooted in shared leadership work at West Point and collaborations through Team Red, White, and Blue.
• Mike’s background spans military leadership (three combat tours, two Bronze Stars), positive psychology research, and building organizations aimed at fostering community and character.

Notable Moment:

• Mike shares about living on his 32-acre homestead near Fort Bragg, NC, with his family and a variety of animals, reflecting on the humbling, daily problem-solving of farm life.
  • Quote:
    “Every single day is problem solving and learning new things about how complicated it is... There’s just so much that can go wrong every single day. And how you approach that has a huge impact on your attitude and on your ability to solve the problems that come up.”
    — Mike Erwin [05:24]

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2. Genesis of ‘Leadership Is a Relationship’

The foundational thesis: Relationships are at the core of leadership, and investing in them offers the highest return for both success and happiness.

• Mike’s perspective formed from his time in grad school under Dr. Chris Peterson, a pioneering positive psychologist.

  • Quote:
    “Relationships are the foundation of our lives. And... while relationships are wildly complicated, investing in them brings the highest return on investment to our success and to our happiness, especially when we find ourselves in leadership positions.”
    — Mike Erwin [06:14]

• The loss of Chris Peterson further inspired Mike to carry his mentor’s legacy, leading to key projects like Team Red, White, and Blue and The Positivity Project.

• Mike describes how both military veterans and children benefit at the core from connection and positive relationships.

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3. The Seven Key Areas of Relationship-Driven Leadership

The episode delves deeply into the first three areas:

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A. Accountability [14:15]

• Key Point: Accountability is most effective when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.

• Quote:
  “Brilliant leaders find contextually relevant and productive ways to inject accountability into their environments. They know that accountability works better when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [14:15]

• Discussion:

  • Accountability often has a negative connotation—seen as punitive rather than supportive.

  • When leaders who already have relationships with their teams address accountability, it’s more likely to be received as care rather than criticism.

  • Using the analogy of a stranger vs. a family member calling out a child’s behavior, Mike stresses how context matters.

    • Quote:
      “If I hear [critique] from my mom or my brother or someone who I already have a relationship with, that just hits so differently.”
      — Mike Erwin [15:17]

  • Nuance and empathy matter, especially if personal struggles affect performance.

  • Investing in understanding team members’ lives allows for more constructive, supportive conversations.

    • Quote:
      “There’s actually a return on investment for leaders to invest the time to get to know their people... because that will give you a window and some more insight into when they are struggling.”
      — Mike Erwin [17:37]

  • Accountability should be contextual, not formulaic—a conversation, not a confrontation.

• Trust and Accountability:

  • Consistency in accountability builds trust within teams; avoiding necessary accountability erodes trust.
    • Quote:
      “You lose trust with people because they will say... ‘You care so much about the mission, and you know that this person is underperforming and you’re not even willing to talk about it?’ That’s really hard to establish trust with people.”
      — Mike Erwin [21:51]

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B. Forgiveness [22:03]

• Key Point: A culture of forgiveness leads to a culture of bravery and innovation in teams.

• Quote:
  “A culture of forgiveness often yields a culture of bravery. When people know that they’re loved, cared for, and supported, even when they fail, they’re free to try audacious, creative, and risky things.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [22:03]

• Discussion:

  • Example of Dr. Virginia Hill, a principal who fostered forgiveness to allow for risk-taking and big leaps in her challenging school environment.
  • Forgiveness is not easy, but it’s transformational for both leaders and teams.
  • Quote:
    “Sometimes the greatest exercise of power is the choice to forgive rather than punish.”
    — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [24:05]
  • Powerful stories showcase the life-changing impact of leaders choosing forgiveness, such as Colin Powell’s story of being forgiven in a critical moment while in the military.

• Brené’s Reflection:

  • Forgiveness requires letting something go; sometimes it’s an expectation or fantasy of perfection.

    • Quote:
      “In order for forgiveness to happen, especially when there’s a big betrayal, ... something’s got to die. ... Sometimes what I’ve experienced is expectations of perfection. And that’s a good thing to kill off, actually.”
      — Brené Brown [27:49]

  • Discusses the role of self-forgiveness, perfectionism, and the tendency for leaders hardest on themselves to be least forgiving of others.

    • Quote:
      “Do you think forgiving others is hard for us because we are slow to meet our own failures and setbacks and disappointments with grace?”
      — Brené Brown [30:03]
    • “Absolutely. That is absolutely spot on from my view.”
      — Mike Erwin [30:25]

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C. Resilience [31:06]

• Key Point: Resilience is a communal, not just individual, quality—relationships are critical for group and personal resilience.

• Quote:
  “Every story of resilience begins in darkness. Without grief, strife, and frustration, there could be no resilience. It’s our response to suffering.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [31:06]

• Discussion:

  • The Michigan Basketball team’s response to an aviation accident: adversity forged new bonds, and ultimately propelled them to remarkable success.

    • Coach John Beilein fostered connection in crisis by focusing on the group’s experience, not just tactics.
    • Quote:
      “He didn’t say anything... about, ‘we’re going to draw this play up.’ He just looked at them all and said, ‘We’ve been through an awful lot these past three days, guys. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we could pull this thing out?’ And it ignited a spark.”
      — Mike Erwin [32:21]

  • Community and Wraparound Support: Both reflect on how real resilience, whether after loss, workplace adversity, or social marginalization, is only possible through group support and collective belonging.

    • Quote:
      “Resilience doesn’t have to be about responding to one particular setback. Strong relationships can help us stay resilient in a variety of challenges so long as we face them together. ... We are most resilient in community.”
      — Brené Brown [34:39]
    • “The idea of the resilience is not something you build on your own... You build it with other people.”
      — Mike Erwin [36:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-----------|--------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:24 | Mike Erwin | “Every single day is problem solving ... There’s just so much that can go wrong ...” | | 06:14 | Mike Erwin | “Relationships are the foundation of our lives.” | | 14:15 | Brené Brown | “Accountability works better when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.”| | 21:51 | Mike Erwin | “You lose trust with people because they will say ... ‘You care so much ...’” | | 24:05 | Brené Brown | “Sometimes the greatest exercise of power is the choice to forgive rather than punish.” | | 27:49 | Brené Brown | “Sometimes what I’ve experienced is expectations of perfection. And that’s a good thing to kill off, actually.”| | 30:03 | Brené Brown | “Do you think forgiving others is hard for us because we are slow to meet our own failures ... with grace?”| | 32:21 | Mike Erwin | “He just looked at them all and said, ‘We’ve been through an awful lot ... would it be awesome if we could pull this thing out?’”| | 34:39 | Brené Brown | “We are most resilient in community.” | | 36:32 | Mike Erwin | “The idea of ... resilience is not something you build on your own... you build it with other people.”|

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Episode Structure / Timestamps

• [02:12–05:21] – Introduction to Mike Erwin, homestead anecdotes, Brené’s connection to Mike.
• [06:14–13:29] – The roots of “Leadership Is a Relationship”; influence of Chris Peterson; founding Team Red, White, and Blue and Positivity Project.
• [14:15–18:22] – Deep dive on accountability: why relationships matter, myths, practical examples.
• [19:46–22:01] – Trust, accountability, and team dynamics.
• [22:01–30:25] – Forgiveness: culture, power, stories from education and the military, letting go of perfection.
• [31:06–37:13] – Resilience: adversity and connection, examples from sports, social work, and organizational life.

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Tone & Style

This conversation is warm, honest, and filled with lived experience and research-backed insight. Both Brené and Mike are humble, direct, and stay rooted in practical realities, moving fluidly between stories, theory, and actionable wisdom. The tone is encouraging, occasionally humorous, and always prioritizing humanity over management jargon.

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Final Takeaway

Leadership rooted in relationships isn't just softer or nicer—it's smarter, more sustainable, and ultimately more effective. As Mike and Brené emphasize, accountability, forgiveness, and resilience all grow from the soil of genuine connection—whether you’re leading in the military, education, business, or your own family.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the conversation will continue to highlight additional pillars of relational leadership.

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Transcript

[Barrett Guillen]

Hi everyone, this is Barrett Guillen and welcome to Dare to Lead. I wanted to let you know that the Mike Irwin podcast was so amazing that we decided to split it into two parts. So this is part one. Part two will be out next week and I'm going to kick it over to Brene to take us from here.

[Brene Brown]

Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Dare to Lead. Today I'm talking to Mike Irwin, who is the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership center team Red, White and Blue and the Positivity Project. He's also the co author of Lead Yourself first, which focuses on how solitude strengthens people's character and their ability to lead with clarity, balance and conviction. We're talking today about his new book, Leadership as a Relationship, which is, ah, such a. It's a really beautiful book about kind of seven functions of relationship building. And whether you're a leader or you're thinking about your family, you're thinking about friends, it's a really beautiful conversation about the importance of prioritizing our relationships as people and also as leaders. I'm glad y' all are here.

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[Brene Brown]

Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Mike. He is a leader who has dedicated his life to serving the nation and empowering people to build positive relationships and become more resilient in community. And I met Mike how long ago? Barrett?

[Barrett Guillen]

Well, I think he said it was eight years when we did the 5K.

[Brene Brown]

So maybe 10 years, 10, 12 years ago at West Point when I went to do some leadership work with the cadets and then met Mike and spent some time with Mike and we've been friends since I've done some work with Team Red, White and Blue, the veterans group with him, and he's just an incredibly dynamic, smart, funny, loving person. Mike is a 2002 graduate of the U.S. military Academy at West Point. He has a bachelor's degree in economics. He was commissioned as an intelligence officer. He served three combat tours with the 1st Cavalry Division and 3rd Special Forces Group Airborne, and he has earned two Bronze Star medals from these tours. He attended the University of Michigan, where he earned a master's degree in positive psychology. He continues to proudly serve the Nation as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. army Reserves, assigned to the U.S. military Academy as an assistant professor. He lives on a 32 acre homestead outside of Fort Bragg, North Carolina, with his wife Genevieve and their five children and a dairy cow that I was. Thank you, Barrett. That was Barrett mooing. I was really excited because when we first came on the podcast, he was like, there's a cow and I can't stop it from mooing. I don't know what to do. So I was really excited about it, but never got to hear it. He had his wife go move hay or something, which was kind of a bummer because we were excited about the sound effects. Let's jump into the conversation. Mike, welcome to Dare to Lead.

[Mike Irwin]

It is so great to be here. I'm so excited for the conversation.

[Brene Brown]

Me too. And I have to say that before we started recording, Mike gave us fair warning that we could hear some cows. And I'm really, really hoping. Tell me where you are. That we might run into some mooing.

[Mike Irwin]

So I live right outside Fort Bragg, North Carolina, about an hour south of Raleigh. And about three years ago we moved out to a 32 acre homest. And it's my wife's like, lifelong dream to get a dairy cow. And so we now have our own dairy cow. And it comes with a fair amount of mooing, depending on how hungry they are, as I've learned.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, are there other things? Do you say farm or do you say homestead?

[Mike Irwin]

It's a homestead. Just because it's really. We primarily provide for ourselves versus farming tends to imply that you're producing for others or for sale. And so it's just got it for our family. But yeah, it's been quite the humbling journey.

[Brene Brown]

What else do you have besides a cow?

[Mike Irwin]

So we have goats, pigs, ducks, chickens, turkeys, bees, a vegetable garden and an orchard. So. Wow. Yeah, it's been amazing. It's the old, you know, Old MacDonald had a farm. E I E I O Like that's the running joke with a lot of my friends. They like to jokingly call me Farmer Mike now.

[Brene Brown]

So.

[Mike Irwin]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Have you learned more than you ever thought you would possibly learn?

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, my goodness. Every single day is problem solving and learning new things about how complicated it is to whether you're raising vegetables or fruits or bees or animals. There's just so much that can go wrong every single day. And how you approach that has a huge impact on your attitude and on your ability to solve the problems that come off every single day. Wow.

[Brene Brown]

I can't think of a person better suited to do that than you, actually. All right, we are talking about Leadership is a Relationship. It's your latest book, how to Put People first in the Digital World. God, this is a timely book. Right now, tell us about what led you to writing this book. Tell us the story that kind of brought you here and brought this book to us, thankfully.

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely. Well, before that, I just got two quick things. One is I remember the last time I had an hour long conversation with you. It was very deep. It was, I believe you were researching daring greatly and you warned me about it and you said, like, be ready for like an emotional hangover the next day. And I literally had like the most emotional hangover the next day. So I am so excited to be again, another chance to talk with you for a full hour. This is a real treat. And the other thing before getting into the book, I just would say is that super grateful for the invitation here to have this conversation. A mutual acquaintance, someone we know, one of my mentors, Jim Collins, I know he's been on your podcast. He once told me something that really stuck out and still it's with me all the time. And that he says not all moments in time are equal. And you need to know that and realize that. And for me and for the work that I've done for the past 12, 13 years, this is definitely one of those moments, a chance to elevate the conversation about something that I Learned back in 2009 in grad school at the University of Michigan, that relationships are the foundation of our lives. And I'll never forget you telling me about a decade ago that about a decade, I think before that you had this goal, this vision to create a nationwide conversation about the power of vulnerability and safe to say you've done that. And while I don't necessarily think that a conversation will do that in just one day, this is a really big deal and a big opportunity. And for the past 12 years, I've been really working in the field of positive psychology to better understand that while relationships are wildly complicated, that investing in them and investing in other people, it brings the highest return on investment to our success and to our happiness, especially when we find ourselves in leadership positions. So thank you so much for inviting me here today.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I believe that. And I believe in, you know, I think about our relationship when we had the very daunting conversation about daring greatly. Were we at West Point?

[Mike Irwin]

We were. We were. It was one of your two visits to West Point, and it was one of those moments where Chris Oxendine and some of the other people that we brought in to speak with you, I mean, everyone. It was just such a deep, powerful set of conversations that unfolded right there on that ground.

[Brene Brown]

So, yeah, I think about what we talked about and the courage in that room and the vulnerability in that room and the trust unearned and the generosity. Yeah. It really shifted my research. It changed the trajectory of my career. So I don't know that we have really anything without relationships.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

And I think the people in that room shared with me because of their relationship with you.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

I mean, I think that now that you say that, I mean, that's super powerful and super humbling. But they did. They've had a lot of trust in you and in confidence in you to be able to take their powerful stories of loss and trauma and what they experience in combat zones and in their own lives and to not just honor that, but and also to offer it as a contribution to the summer work that you were doing in that moment on these topics.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Relationship. So as I was reading the book, I could definitely see. I could definitely not even just see or cognitively understand, but feel culmination. Because I've tracked your work, I've read your work, you and I have talked a lot about solitude and your first book. When I read this, I thought, this is where he's been pointing for a long time.

[Mike Irwin]

Totally.

[Brene Brown]

Is that true?

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely. I mean, so going back to your question that I just had to kind of get a couple of those things I wanted to share at the very outset. But going back to your question, where did this originate from? Where did it start? And so when I got to the University of Michigan in 2009, I was fresh off my third rotation out of Iraq or Afghanistan, and I started studying positive psychology. And the first thing I did is I actually took the undergraduate class, even though I was a graduate student. I took the undergraduate class that Dr. Chris Peterson was teaching, and he was the renowned Golden Apple award winning professor at Michigan, and I was able to take that class. And while there's a lot of things that he shared about positive psychology and about character strengths, he kept on pointing everything back to relationships and how important they are in our lives. And that the research has clearly showed that without relationships, life is just so much less rich. Yes. At times less stressful, but it's less rich. So that's really where the seeds were planted with the book. And I actually worked on a paper in one of my graduate school classes titled Leadership as a Relationship, and that was the beginnings of it. So 2010 is when the seeds were planted for the idea of this book. And it really wasn't until almost a decade later that I picked it up and started to work on it in earnest.

[Brene Brown]

So tell us how your life experiences, your building organizations. What made you go back to it? What experience brought you back to leadership as a relationship?

[Mike Irwin]

Sure. So when I was in grad school in 2010, I founded first organization, Team Red, White and Blue. Right. That, you know. Well, I mean, it's still hard to believe, but it was eight years ago that you hosted a bunch of our leaders in an incredible transformational seminar for Team Red, White and Blue. And we are still such a young organization. I'm still so grateful to you for doing that. I founded that organization in 2010, and the core idea there was how do we help connect military veterans to other people in their community? Essentially to set the stage, to set the table, to help them to build new relationships in their post military life. And so the idea of relationships was a part of Team Red, White and Blue. And as you probably remember, In October of 2012, a decade ago, Dr. Chris Peterson passed away suddenly of a heart attack. And it hit me really hard. And like a lot of us, when we lose influential people who shape us in our lives, we think of, well, how can I carry this person's legacy forward? How can I ensure that what they cared about so much and we're working on doesn't pass with them? And so that really, again, planted new seeds for me as a couple years later, founded the Positivity Project with one of my West Point comrades. And so both of those organizations at the core are about people and fostering connection and about building relationships. The Positivity product is in about 850 schools across America right now. And the mission is to empower America's youth to build positive relationships and become their best selves. But again, it keeps pointing back to relationships. And so whether it's military veterans or children, the goal of helping to drive connection has been just a foundational part of the work that I've done. And so when I started thinking about. Because, as you know, after you write one book, there's always thoughts of people, got lots of ideas, and they say, well, when's the next book coming?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

And I really didn't have any thoughts about a second book for a while, but it became pretty clear to me in 2018 that all this work, this decade of work focusing on relationships in these different organizations is something that I could really distill down to and then really build out into a more detailed work that speaks to the power of relationships for leaders.

[Brene Brown]

I love the format of this book. It's so straightforward, but it builds and it makes so much sense. So I have an idea. You say that there are seven key areas that we can really grow and develop when we lead with relationships. So what I thought I would do is take us through those seven areas with one of what I thought was a real learning, powerful, kind of grab me by the shoulders, quote from that, and maybe you could talk about that area. How does that sound?

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, that sounds great.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. And then I got a lot of big questions.

[Interjecting Participant]

Good.

[Brene Brown]

At the end, of course, you know.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. So the first key area where leading with relationships has huge benefits is accountability. You write, brilliant leaders find contextually relevant and productive ways to inject accountability into their environments. They know that accountability works better when it happens within the context of a strong relationship. I feel like accountability happens outside of relationships all the time. And tell us about that. Tell us about accountability within the context of a strong relationship. What does that mean to you?

[Mike Irwin]

So, first of all, accountability, I think it often has such a negative connotation associated with it. I'm gonna hold you accountable. Right? We're gonna be accountable. And I think the big thing we discovered by interviewing all these different leaders across different sectors was that accountability is more effective and it's more productive when there is a relationship there. So here's a story I tell. If I'm in a grocery store and some stranger comes up to me, and let's say my kids are misbehaving, right? And they come up to me and say, hey, like, your kids are, you know, really unruly, versus if I hear that from my mom or my brother or someone who I already have a relationship with, that just hits so differently.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

And so I agree that there is a lot of people, I think, who use accountability as something that is not tied to relationships, and they very much are. Hey, my job is to hold people accountable. But when we talk about leadership and we talk about how important it is for leaders to set a vision, to inspire, to connect, like that happens often through the power of those relationships that they build. And I think the same thing applies for holding people accountable. You talk so much about having difficult conversations. Some of the most difficult conversations we have in our lives, but especially in leadership roles, are when people are underperforming and not many people are waking up saying, how can I mess up today? Right? You know, like, most people are trying to do the right thing. They're trying to get their job done, to make contributions. And sometimes those accountability conversations just need to happen. And I keep pointing back to the importance of when a leader invests in relationships, he or she is going to be able to have those accountability conversations in a much more productive way than if they feel like it's an attack or it's, hey, you don't care about me. You're just trying to push me harder so that we can win more or succeed more. And that has a very different feel, both emotionally and cognitively, when the person is on the receiving end of that difficult conversation.

[Brene Brown]

What do you think we don't understand about accountability? What do you think some of the mythology about accountability is? Because I found contextually relevant and productive ways to inject accountability into the environment. Can you give me an example?

[Mike Irwin]

I think so much of this ties into the nuance of the situation you find yourself in. So an example would just be if someone's underperforming, but they've got a struggle going on in their personal life. And it could be a whole host of things like how you have that accountability conversation needs to be different. Knowing and respecting the fact that there are factors outside the work environment that are causing distractions or getting in the way of this person performing at their peak or their very best.

[Brene Brown]

That's right.

[Mike Irwin]

So I think that's where the contextualization and the nuance comes in that when you really get to know people and look, I know there's differing views on this, Some people might feel like, hey, like, work is work, and I don't want to share too much about my personal life, and I don't want you to know too much about my personal life, But I really feel like that part of the thesis of the book is to make the case that there's actually a return on investment, if you will, for leaders to invest the time to get to know their people and not just like their birthday, but, like, you get to know more of their story and you get to know more of who they are because that will give you a window and some more insight into when they are struggling, they are underperforming and you do need to have that conversation of, hey, I know things are hard right now. Right. But the whole team is counting on you to keep moving this ball down the field.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And what does support look like for me?

[Mike Irwin]

Totally.

[Brene Brown]

In order to do that.

[Preet Bharara]

Is gun reform a matter of law or culture?

[Brene Brown]

There are more people who are gun enthusiasts today who believe guns are a good thing for them and the safety.

[Preet Bharara]

Of their home, regardless of whether the.

[Brene Brown]

Public health data supports that or not.

[Preet Bharara]

I'm Preet Bharara and this week the president of Everytown for Gun Safety, John Feinblatt and Second Amendment scholar Adam Winkler, joined me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Preet. We discuss the state of gun violence in this country, the biggest mistakes Democrats have made in seeking reform, and why the best prospect for meaningful change may take place outside the courts. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter Kafka]

I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels and on my podcast we've been talking about the future of AI and media for what seems like forever.

[Mike Irwin]

But what if I told you that.

[Peter Kafka]

Future is already here? So at what point, if any, does a human get involved before it gets sent to my inbox?

[Brene Brown]

Not at all.

[Peter Kafka]

That's Warren St. John, the CEO of Patch, the local news network, telling me how he's producing thousands of newsletters every day just using AI. You can hear our entire conversation on Channels wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

[Brene Brown]

I like that you write exhibiting accountability over time is a gateway to trust. When we see someone acting with accountability, we gain the evidence we need to trust them.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

So tell me about the leader. Tell me about what happens you think. I mean, you've been part of very high performing teams, right?

[Interjecting Participant]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

Tell me what happens in a team when it's not you, but one of your teammates, when someone clearly needs to be held accountable but is not being held accountable, what happens to our trust in that leader?

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, absolutely. All of us can think of lots of examples of how this plays out because it is difficult sometimes to have those conversations with people. Right. It's not enjoyable. I jokingly often will ask when giving talks or working with people, like anyone here enjoy having difficult conversations. They're once in a while there's like one masochist that puts their hand up, you know. But no, you're exactly right. The Ability to trust people, especially in a team environment, is so critical to be able to get the work done right without the trust. And that's when we have the micromanagement and we have the second guessing of what's going on and all these negative things that get in the way of progress and performance. And so I think that when we just let someone who is not bringing their best self. And again, it doesn't mean that you need to hold people's feet to the fire and use all these analogies that we hear people use. No, it can be a very actually productive and kind conversation.

[Brene Brown]

Right, right.

[Mike Irwin]

Accountability doesn't need to be as rough as people often think it is. They think of accountability as like someone chewing someone else's butt and be like, hey, you like. It really is, I think, a lot more nuanced than that. But to answer your question specifically, yeah, you lose trust with people because they will say like, hey, if you care so much about the mission and where we're going and you know that this person is underperforming and you're not even willing to talk about it or have the conversation, you're just going to try to pretend like it's not happening. That's really hard to establish trust with people.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I see that all the time and it's hard. Okay, let's do the second one. Oh, man, this is a huge topic. Wow. Forgiveness.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

You write. I'm on page 41. A culture of forgiveness often yields a culture of bravery. When people know that they're loved, cared for and supported, even when they fail, they're free to try audacious, creative and risky things.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

You write about a couple people. I mean, your storytelling is so good and your examples are so good. Let's talk about Dr. Virginia Hill.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yep.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah. Dr. Virginia Hill. She's a phenomenal principal that I've gotten to know over the past six years through the Positivity Project in Pittsburgh. Absolute fire breather of a leader, but just so emotional. A big fan of your work. She talked about this, like, in her school where there were so many challenges when she stepped into this very challenging leadership environment. Right. And where people often, if they don't feel like they have the permission to fail or to make mistakes, then they're much less likely to try the kinds of big and bold things that you need when you're talking about for sure. Like, hey, we are way behind in terms of getting our kids to a reading level or getting their behavior to a place where we know they can be. And so she really talked about. Forgiveness is something like, that's like on the daily. I mean like this is like you've got to be as a leader in certain environments to be willing to forgive, knowing that people are gonna make mistakes because they're trying big and audacious things. And I found the conversation with her to just be so powerful in that regard.

[Brene Brown]

I have like 25 quotes underlined in this chapter. Because this is hard. I think this is hard, very hard. One of your squared, like you have these big lessons that are kind of squared off and call out boxes, which I love because I need to be hit over the head with some of this stuff. So it's like I feel like Mike is tapping me on the shoulder saying, hey, Brene, this is the lesson here on this page, okay. It's very helpful for me. Sometimes the greatest exercise of power is the choice to forgive rather than punish.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

It's like you said, it's so hard. I think about the character shrinks and for me, sadly, forgiveness is like number 22 out of 24. Like, I'm not proud of that. You know, that's just being honest. It's something that some people do much more naturally. But very few people find forgiveness easy. When you look at character thing profiles, very few do they even get into the top 10. I think it's a very challenging thing for us to do as humans. One of the most powerful quotes that I've ever seen about forgiveness is that life becomes easier when you learn to forgive without ever receiving the apology. And I've shared that on social media in the past. It just hits people so hard. And I think it hits in this place where people are like, sometimes you deserve the apology but you're not going to get it. And the ability to forgive to move beyond that and whether it's saying, hey, maybe this person doesn't know that they hurt me. Maybe it's just that they don't think it was a big deal. Right. There's a whole host of reasons there, but the idea to. And the ability to be able to forgive and move beyond the transgressions and the offenses and the hurt, if you can find your way to there. It's an incredible place to be in Virginia. And we also profiled an incredible story of a retired three star general who at the time was the young officer in the military. But Colin Powell tells a powerful story about this right in Vietnam when he should have been punished for losing his 9 millimeter and he was forgiven and how that like changed the rest of his entire Military career in life. So history is littered with so many examples of people who have been forgiven and it changes their lives forever. And for me, that was just a big lesson from interviewing those two incredible leaders.

[Brene Brown]

Now I want to share a story with you. I want to get your feedback on it. It was like one of the biggest moments of my life. So I'm at church and Joe Reynolds, the dean of our church, was giving a lesson. After church, you know, the kids go off to Sunday school and the ad go into like, I guess we got Sunday school too. But Sunday hard ass school is what I call it. Cause he's always talking about really hard things. And there's certainly. I'm Episcopal pain, so there's certainly a resonance in a Christian narrative with this. But he said that in order for forgiveness to happen, especially when there's a big betrayal, he said, something's got to die. And it was so crazy because I had spent forgiveness was one in the gifts of imperfection. Then I took it out because right before we went to publication, a focus group with rabbis and they really turned some of my ideas upside down about forgiveness. And it challenged the data. So I was like, I just don't know enough to put this in there. I just don't. Nothing's saturated. Everything is all over the board. I can definitely think about personal examples of forgiveness where it's very easy for me to point to what had to die. And often it's an expectation, you know, that has to die. Or Joe Father Reynolds was telling the story of how he was counseling a couple and there was an infidelity and trust had to die and then be rebuilt. So there's kind of a rebuilding and a renewal. But I think sometimes at work I've thought about this in a couple of cases where I thought, what has to die right now, if that's true, if for forgiveness something has to die. And sometimes what I've experienced is expectations of perfection. And that's a good thing to kill off, actually.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

That's great. That's deep insight.

[Brene Brown]

Do you know what I mean?

[Mike Irwin]

Totally.

[Brene Brown]

But that's a good thing to kill off, probably. Or expectations of something being flawless. Or expectations that I can go up on social media three or four times a week with 14 million people and make everybody happy.

[Mike Irwin]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

But I'd love to get your reaction about that. There's some grief attached to forgiveness sometimes.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

I mean, that hits hard. I mean, that analysis you just gave right there is really, really powerful when talking to people. Forgiveness is one of the ones we had to kind of dig to find people willing to talk.

[Brene Brown]

For sure.

[Mike Irwin]

Because this is one of the things in the joke that authors write books that they need to read. Right. This is one of the things people talk about how important forgiveness is. We know how important it is, but boy, is it difficult to do. And that analysis there of something has to die, that's deep. That's helpful. It's helpful for me just hearing you say that in terms of how to conceptualize it in my own mind.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I started thinking a lot of that because, like, I was just reading the takeaways from this chapter on page 41. Forgiveness isn't just something we do when we've been wronged. It's much more powerful when we infuse it into our relationship and plans, however well they're going. A culture of forgiveness often yields a culture of bravery. This is the quote that I read. It's just something about grace in here, right?

[Mike Irwin]

Totally. Absolutely. And you think about how generally. Good. Here's the interesting thing about forgiveness too, Brene, we see is that this is nearly a top character strength for lots and lots of kids and often teachers, because kids will tend to, you know, younger kids, they tend to forgive each other. Like, hey, you said this in an hour, you know, or 10 minutes later, they've completely forgotten about it and they're not even thinking about it. I see this even with my own children, you know, like when I lose my temper with them or be frustrated they've forgiven me like that, you know, and so I think about why is it that so often children can do this so well and often that we as adults can do it with younger kids. Well, right. But as people get older, that we get stingier and stingier with that grace, you know, And I don't know the answer to that question, but I think about it a lot.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. I do have this question for you. Just what you think about it. Do you think forgiving others is hard for us because we are slow to meet our own failures and setbacks and disappointments with grace?

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yes.

[Mike Irwin]

That is absolutely spot on from my view. And it's often the things that, like, we're working with on our own end that I think makes it so often for us to be able to forgive others, you know, And I could not agree more.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Because I think a lot about kind of the crippling nature of perfectionism and shame and kind of shame self talk and how the leaders that I talk to that wrestle with that the most are the least forgiving with the people around Them. Yeah. And, I mean, I'm, you know, researcher, heal thyself, but I get it.

[Mike Irwin]

That's really insightful.

[Brene Brown]

All right. Resilience.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, my God. This may be my favorite quote in the book. This is such a beautiful. It's so poetic. Every story of resilience begins in darkness. Without grief, strife, and frustration, there could be no resilience. It's our response to suffering.

[Interjecting Participant]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

Talk to me about Michigan basketball's aviation accident.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, geez. This is such a fascinating story for people out there might have heard of it before, but if not, you can read these fascinating pieces. Brene. But I did leadership work as a graduate student when I was there with coach Sean Beeline and stayed in touch. He actually brought the staff out to West Point one year, so I stayed in very close touch with him. But they were going to play, and they were a bubble team. They were basically having a decent year. They were probably not going to make the tournament. And it's a snowy day in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and the airplane is taking off to the Big Ten tournament, and it doesn't get lift. And so the pilot goes into panic mode. Hey, we gotta stop this. The plane, like, basically slows down just enough where the end of it kind of careens, you know, over into the ravine, but no one's hurt, thankfully. And Coach Beeline, who is known and revered for being a great tactical coach, and everyone sees him as being a really good X's and O's kind of leader.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Irwin]

In this moment. And then throughout the next couple of days, he basically turns to the team and says, hey, if you guys don't want to go, I totally get it. And the players came together and were like, coach, we need to go. They went and played the next day. They played the game in their practice jerseys because their uniforms were stuck in the airplane that they couldn't get out from the accident. But the most powerful story that came in there, and then they make this incredible run. They win the Big Ten tournament. They go all the way, and they lose to Villanova in the National Championship game. But what they did is there was this moment in a game when they were winning, and then they started to lose. And he pulled them together, and he didn't say anything to them about, hey, like, we're going to draw this play up. We're going to run this. He came together and he just looked at them all and said, we've been through an awful lot these past three days, guys. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could pull this thing out. And just a totally human moment. A moment of like, the answer here is not the X's and O's and telling people what they need to do. It's re establishing that connection with him and with each other. And it ignited a spark and they went on this incredible stretch and then won the game. But there was just such power in that story. For me to hear someone who, again, people often think about Coach always barking out and talking to players and do this, do that. And here he is in the huddle that no one knew. There was no cameras on this. This is something that he shared with us and just said, wouldn't this be awesome if we could pull this thing out? And it just completely changed the mindset of the entire team in that moment.

[Brene Brown]

I have goosebumps. I mean, yeah, let me ask you this. I'm looking at resilience, and I'm going to my big lesson because you helped me find it. I'm on page 58. One big lesson. Brene, reread this twice. Resilience doesn't have to be about responding to one particular setback. Strong relationships can help us stay resilient in a variety of challenges so long as we face them together. You talk a lot about resilience being a function of healthy, thriving groups. You say favorite learning in the book. We are most resilient in community.

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think that there is a big misunderstanding that a lot of people have that. And there are instances when people can sort of just power through on their own and bounce back from that major adversity. But think about when you lose someone. What is it that gets you through? It's your family and your friends who are there for you, writing cards and cooking meals and sending flowers and sitting there. If you try to go it alone when you're facing adversity and especially major adversity, I don't know how you make it. It's the community, it's the relationships, and especially within a team. Everything from when you miss your quarterly goals, from a profit standpoint to a deployment scenario to a sports team to a school, every environment where there are leaders. I don't know how you can be resilient without the focus on connection and relationship between people within that organization. I just don't.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, it's one thing I thought about when I was reading this is the importance of employee resource groups. Groups that get together who have struggles because of a lack of equity or inclusivity or diversity and belonging, and how important those employee resource groups are and how the People who lead them and run them, it's a big issue for me. Should get paid and have time to do that because extra duty, yeah, it is in service of people, but it's also equally in service of the organization because that community, that those are built. I mean, resilience absolutely happens in community. And I do believe when we look at individual and I just think about this as a social worker that we always talk about resilience in terms of wraparound services. How many community members and can we wrap around this person, the relationships. When we look for resilience in an individual, we're bankrupting. The term of resilience by definition, in my mind, 100%.

[Mike Irwin]

I mean the idea of the resilience is not something you build on your own. That's one of the things that really sticks out with me, that thought like it's, it's. You build it with other people. And we see this from the time you join the military. They fostered this mindset of resilience from the beginning. But you're going through basic training together. It's all about learning how to rely upon people to your left and your right. And while we talk about that in the military, it applies to and should apply to any and every organization out there. Because when you can lock arms with and you can look to people around you and you know that, hey, if things hit the fan here, things aren't going well, that we're going to have each other's back and whether any environment. This is something that leaders need to do.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, no, I think that's right. That's it, really, y'.

[Mike Irwin]

All.

[Brene Brown]

I mean, this is it. Relationships embrace the suck. They're hard, but you can't give up on people because we're all we have. Like, what are you gonna do? Just you and the dairy cow. Not gonna work. You can find all of Mike's books wherever you like to buy books. We'll put links to everything on the episode page. Also, how you can find Mike some of his papers on brenebrown.com we are grateful that you're here with us. Love, love and stability. I'll take both. Part two of the series will be here next week on Dare to Lead. Say awkward, brave and kind, y'. All. Dare to Lead is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. Music is by the sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to Lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more award winning [e-mail] I just.

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