Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 1 of 2

Date: December 5, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Mike Erwin

Episode Overview

In this episode, Brené Brown sits down with Mike Erwin—founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center, Team Red, White, and Blue, and the Positivity Project, and co-author of Lead Yourself First. The focus is on Mike's new book, Leadership Is a Relationship, which explores the foundational role of relationships in effective leadership. Together, Brené and Mike unpack why prioritizing relationships is essential for leaders, how solitude connects to relationship building, and dive into three key functions of relationship-centered leadership: accountability, forgiveness, and resilience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Mike Erwin

• Brené’s relationship with Mike goes back over a decade, rooted in shared leadership work at West Point and collaborations through Team Red, White, and Blue.
• Mike’s background spans military leadership (three combat tours, two Bronze Stars), positive psychology research, and building organizations aimed at fostering community and character.

Notable Moment:

• Mike shares about living on his 32-acre homestead near Fort Bragg, NC, with his family and a variety of animals, reflecting on the humbling, daily problem-solving of farm life.
  • Quote:
    “Every single day is problem solving and learning new things about how complicated it is... There’s just so much that can go wrong every single day. And how you approach that has a huge impact on your attitude and on your ability to solve the problems that come up.”
    — Mike Erwin [05:24]

2. Genesis of ‘Leadership Is a Relationship’

The foundational thesis: Relationships are at the core of leadership, and investing in them offers the highest return for both success and happiness.

• Mike’s perspective formed from his time in grad school under Dr. Chris Peterson, a pioneering positive psychologist.

  • Quote:
    “Relationships are the foundation of our lives. And... while relationships are wildly complicated, investing in them brings the highest return on investment to our success and to our happiness, especially when we find ourselves in leadership positions.”
    — Mike Erwin [06:14]

• The loss of Chris Peterson further inspired Mike to carry his mentor’s legacy, leading to key projects like Team Red, White, and Blue and The Positivity Project.

• Mike describes how both military veterans and children benefit at the core from connection and positive relationships.

3. The Seven Key Areas of Relationship-Driven Leadership

The episode delves deeply into the first three areas:

A. Accountability [14:15]

• Key Point: Accountability is most effective when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.

• Quote:
  “Brilliant leaders find contextually relevant and productive ways to inject accountability into their environments. They know that accountability works better when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [14:15]

• Discussion:

  • Accountability often has a negative connotation—seen as punitive rather than supportive.

  • When leaders who already have relationships with their teams address accountability, it’s more likely to be received as care rather than criticism.

  • Using the analogy of a stranger vs. a family member calling out a child’s behavior, Mike stresses how context matters.

    • Quote:
      “If I hear [critique] from my mom or my brother or someone who I already have a relationship with, that just hits so differently.”
      — Mike Erwin [15:17]

  • Nuance and empathy matter, especially if personal struggles affect performance.

  • Investing in understanding team members’ lives allows for more constructive, supportive conversations.

    • Quote:
      “There’s actually a return on investment for leaders to invest the time to get to know their people... because that will give you a window and some more insight into when they are struggling.”
      — Mike Erwin [17:37]

  • Accountability should be contextual, not formulaic—a conversation, not a confrontation.

• Trust and Accountability:

  • Consistency in accountability builds trust within teams; avoiding necessary accountability erodes trust.
    • Quote:
      “You lose trust with people because they will say... ‘You care so much about the mission, and you know that this person is underperforming and you’re not even willing to talk about it?’ That’s really hard to establish trust with people.”
      — Mike Erwin [21:51]

B. Forgiveness [22:03]

• Key Point: A culture of forgiveness leads to a culture of bravery and innovation in teams.

• Quote:
  “A culture of forgiveness often yields a culture of bravery. When people know that they’re loved, cared for, and supported, even when they fail, they’re free to try audacious, creative, and risky things.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [22:03]

• Discussion:

  • Example of Dr. Virginia Hill, a principal who fostered forgiveness to allow for risk-taking and big leaps in her challenging school environment.
  • Forgiveness is not easy, but it’s transformational for both leaders and teams.
  • Quote:
    “Sometimes the greatest exercise of power is the choice to forgive rather than punish.”
    — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [24:05]
  • Powerful stories showcase the life-changing impact of leaders choosing forgiveness, such as Colin Powell’s story of being forgiven in a critical moment while in the military.

• Brené’s Reflection:

  • Forgiveness requires letting something go; sometimes it’s an expectation or fantasy of perfection.

    • Quote:
      “In order for forgiveness to happen, especially when there’s a big betrayal, ... something’s got to die. ... Sometimes what I’ve experienced is expectations of perfection. And that’s a good thing to kill off, actually.”
      — Brené Brown [27:49]

  • Discusses the role of self-forgiveness, perfectionism, and the tendency for leaders hardest on themselves to be least forgiving of others.

    • Quote:
      “Do you think forgiving others is hard for us because we are slow to meet our own failures and setbacks and disappointments with grace?”
      — Brené Brown [30:03]
    • “Absolutely. That is absolutely spot on from my view.”
      — Mike Erwin [30:25]

C. Resilience [31:06]

• Key Point: Resilience is a communal, not just individual, quality—relationships are critical for group and personal resilience.

• Quote:
  “Every story of resilience begins in darkness. Without grief, strife, and frustration, there could be no resilience. It’s our response to suffering.”
  — Brené Brown (quoting Mike’s book) [31:06]

• Discussion:

  • The Michigan Basketball team’s response to an aviation accident: adversity forged new bonds, and ultimately propelled them to remarkable success.

    • Coach John Beilein fostered connection in crisis by focusing on the group’s experience, not just tactics.
    • Quote:
      “He didn’t say anything... about, ‘we’re going to draw this play up.’ He just looked at them all and said, ‘We’ve been through an awful lot these past three days, guys. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we could pull this thing out?’ And it ignited a spark.”
      — Mike Erwin [32:21]

  • Community and Wraparound Support: Both reflect on how real resilience, whether after loss, workplace adversity, or social marginalization, is only possible through group support and collective belonging.

    • Quote:
      “Resilience doesn’t have to be about responding to one particular setback. Strong relationships can help us stay resilient in a variety of challenges so long as we face them together. ... We are most resilient in community.”
      — Brené Brown [34:39]
    • “The idea of the resilience is not something you build on your own... You build it with other people.”
      — Mike Erwin [36:32]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-----------|--------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:24 | Mike Erwin | “Every single day is problem solving ... There’s just so much that can go wrong ...” | | 06:14 | Mike Erwin | “Relationships are the foundation of our lives.” | | 14:15 | Brené Brown | “Accountability works better when it happens within the context of a strong relationship.”| | 21:51 | Mike Erwin | “You lose trust with people because they will say ... ‘You care so much ...’” | | 24:05 | Brené Brown | “Sometimes the greatest exercise of power is the choice to forgive rather than punish.” | | 27:49 | Brené Brown | “Sometimes what I’ve experienced is expectations of perfection. And that’s a good thing to kill off, actually.”| | 30:03 | Brené Brown | “Do you think forgiving others is hard for us because we are slow to meet our own failures ... with grace?”| | 32:21 | Mike Erwin | “He just looked at them all and said, ‘We’ve been through an awful lot ... would it be awesome if we could pull this thing out?’”| | 34:39 | Brené Brown | “We are most resilient in community.” | | 36:32 | Mike Erwin | “The idea of ... resilience is not something you build on your own... you build it with other people.”|

Episode Structure / Timestamps

• [02:12–05:21] – Introduction to Mike Erwin, homestead anecdotes, Brené’s connection to Mike.
• [06:14–13:29] – The roots of “Leadership Is a Relationship”; influence of Chris Peterson; founding Team Red, White, and Blue and Positivity Project.
• [14:15–18:22] – Deep dive on accountability: why relationships matter, myths, practical examples.
• [19:46–22:01] – Trust, accountability, and team dynamics.
• [22:01–30:25] – Forgiveness: culture, power, stories from education and the military, letting go of perfection.
• [31:06–37:13] – Resilience: adversity and connection, examples from sports, social work, and organizational life.

Tone & Style

This conversation is warm, honest, and filled with lived experience and research-backed insight. Both Brené and Mike are humble, direct, and stay rooted in practical realities, moving fluidly between stories, theory, and actionable wisdom. The tone is encouraging, occasionally humorous, and always prioritizing humanity over management jargon.

Final Takeaway

Leadership rooted in relationships isn't just softer or nicer—it's smarter, more sustainable, and ultimately more effective. As Mike and Brené emphasize, accountability, forgiveness, and resilience all grow from the soil of genuine connection—whether you’re leading in the military, education, business, or your own family.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the conversation will continue to highlight additional pillars of relational leadership.