Podcast Summary: Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 2 of 2
Date: December 12, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Mike Erwin

Overview

This episode continues Brené Brown’s conversation with Mike Erwin, CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and author of Leadership Is a Relationship. Building directly from Part 1, Brené and Mike delve into the core idea that leadership is less about authority and more about building, nurturing, and deepening human relationships. Their discussion explores the seven functions of relationship-building in leadership—specifically trust, language, coalition, loyalty, stability, and the vital role of vulnerability, especially amid increasing instability and complexity in our world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trust and Vulnerability in Leadership

[03:54-05:54]

• Trust is foundational and is deeply linked to vulnerability and humility.
• Mike highlights how, especially in hierarchical environments like the military, stripping away unnecessary formality helps leaders build trust with their teams:
  • “If you put yourself up on some pedestal... you can start to believe the hype.” — Mike Erwin [04:37]
  • Leadership necessitates humility: “...without other people, you’re not a leader.” — Mike Erwin [04:20]
• Brené shares a story from her Air Force work where using call signs instead of ranks helped foster vulnerability and trust among commanders, demonstrating a move from transactional to relational leadership.
  • “Our bar is affection. We insist that you have affection for the people you lead.” — Air Force General (quoted by Brené) [06:40]

2. The Power of Intentional Language

[07:45-10:22]

• Mike discusses how subtle changes in everyday language can build or erode trust, using examples from parenting and education.
  • “When you use as language what you want to see—I think that’s the language that builds trust and connection.” — Mike Erwin [08:44]
• Brené notes that directing towards behaviors ("walk, please" vs. "stop running") is neurologically more effective, reinforcing the importance of affirmation-focused communication.

3. Coalition Building and Relationship as Foundation

[10:23-11:38]

• No true coalition can be built without relationships. While urgency sometimes forces quick action, meaningful and lasting change requires investing in connections across differing viewpoints.
  • “When you bring people together... you find that common ground, people start to see, ‘Okay, this idea that you have, I can maybe get on board with that.’” — Mike Erwin [11:14]

4. Loyalty—Light and Shadows

[11:47-14:57]

• Loyalty is a double-edged sword: it can create strong bonds or trap people in negative situations.
• Distinction between other-focused loyalty (where accountability and forgiveness are present) and self-focused loyalty (transactional, manipulative).
  • “When loyalty starts to move us out of our values, it actually becomes transactional, not relational.” — Brené Brown [14:17]
• Mike expresses concern about the growing transactional nature of the world, highlighting the intentional choice to put people first—even when it’s hard.

5. Digital Communication vs. Real Connection

[14:57-17:32]

• Social media and digital platforms facilitate communication, but not connection:
  • “Connection requires something far more complex... There’s an emotional exposure and vulnerability to communicating and to relationship that is completely flattened when it’s just communicating.” — Brené Brown [15:12]
• Mike shares the story of a general witnessing the absence of physical comfort provided to a grieving family, underlining how people need presence—beyond digital gestures.

6. Stability and Creating a Healthy Culture

[17:50-24:23]

• Stability in leadership is about creating a healthy, calm, and productive culture—even amid chaos and uncertainty.
  • “Love shared between people is a powerful stabilizing force. Our relationships ground us in our commitment to each other, even as our circumstances become uncertain or quickly change.” — Brené Brown (reading Mike’s quote) [18:37]
• Reference to “VUCA” (volatile, unpredictable, chaotic, ambiguous) and how relational leadership anchors people in turbulent times.
• In the shadow of COVID-19 and racial reckoning, relationships were frayed, and this affected our collective well-being.
  • “We’re not okay because it (relationship and connection) is everything.” — Brené Brown [25:10]

7. The Hardness—and Worth—of Relationships

[26:03-29:03]

• Building relationships is challenging, resource-intensive, and emotionally demanding, but ultimately the most rewarding and grounding work of leadership and life.
  • “Embrace the suck. Because it’s worth it. It’s all there really is.” — Brené Brown [28:56]
• Mike affirms: “It’s worth all of the stress and the struggles and the emotional roller coaster... that come with leaning in and really engaging deeply with other human beings.” [26:05]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sacrificing our personal comfort for the good of others.” — Mike Irwin, defining vulnerability [29:20]
• “Level five leadership... is really about having personal humility, but like a relentless commitment and drive for the mission and for the people that you’re on that mission with.” — Mike Irwin [29:41]
• “You just need to embrace the suck.” — Mike Irwin, advice to Brené on marathon training (and life) [27:35]
• “Prioritizing relationship building and decency is often the best way to... create healthy stability amid chaos.” — Brené Brown [23:10]
• “Other people matter, period.” — Mike Irwin quoting positive psychology mentor Chris Peterson [35:34]

Rapid Fire with Mike Irwin

[29:08-34:19]

• Vulnerability is... “Sacrificing our personal comfort for the good of others.” [29:20]
• Remarkable leadership advice: Level five leadership: combining humility with relentless drive (citing Jim Collins). [29:41]
• Favorite concert: Pat Green at Fort Hood, 2004 [30:33]
• Favorite meal: Homemade spaghetti and meatballs with his family every Sunday [31:03]
• Leadership lesson to relearn: Slowing down, being present, and disconnecting from constant busyness [31:29]
• Deep gratitude: Family, friends, and people to share the journey with [32:41]
• Mini mixtape: Mike’s list reveals his enthusiasm, eclecticism, and how music energizes him [33:45-33:59]

Closing Reflections

[34:19-end]

• Brené sums up that every lesson in Leadership Is a Relationship is vital—not only for offices and teams but for families and friends.
• Mike’s lasting message: Relationships require immense effort, but “that is the true richness and joy of life.” [34:45]
• Mike quotes his mentor: “Anything you do that builds relationships... is going to make you happy.” [35:36]
• Final takeaway: “Relationships, embrace the suck. They’re hard. But you can’t give up on people, ‘cause we’re all we have.” — Brené Brown [36:18]

Timestamps for Key Sections

• Trust & Vulnerability: [03:54-05:54]
• The Impact of Language: [07:45-10:22]
• Coalition Building: [10:23-11:38]
• Loyalty’s Upsides and Shadows: [11:47-14:57]
• Communication vs. Connection: [14:57-17:32]
• Stability in Leadership: [17:50-24:23]
• The Labor (and Value) of Relationship: [26:03-29:03]
• Rapid Fire Segment: [29:08-34:19]
• Closing Reflections: [34:19-end]

Final Thought

This episode is a passionate, practical exploration of how deep relationships—even when difficult—are essential for leadership, healing, and navigating today’s unstable world. Through stories, research, and classic Brené humor, listeners are reminded: embrace the suck—because relationships are everything.