Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 2 of 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

Episode: Brené with Mike Erwin on Leadership Is a Relationship, Part 2 of 2
Date: December 12, 2022
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Mike Erwin

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Overview

This episode continues Brené Brown’s conversation with Mike Erwin, CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and author of Leadership Is a Relationship. Building directly from Part 1, Brené and Mike delve into the core idea that leadership is less about authority and more about building, nurturing, and deepening human relationships. Their discussion explores the seven functions of relationship-building in leadership—specifically trust, language, coalition, loyalty, stability, and the vital role of vulnerability, especially amid increasing instability and complexity in our world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trust and Vulnerability in Leadership

[03:54-05:54]

• Trust is foundational and is deeply linked to vulnerability and humility.
• Mike highlights how, especially in hierarchical environments like the military, stripping away unnecessary formality helps leaders build trust with their teams:
  • “If you put yourself up on some pedestal... you can start to believe the hype.” — Mike Erwin [04:37]
  • Leadership necessitates humility: “...without other people, you’re not a leader.” — Mike Erwin [04:20]
• Brené shares a story from her Air Force work where using call signs instead of ranks helped foster vulnerability and trust among commanders, demonstrating a move from transactional to relational leadership.
  • “Our bar is affection. We insist that you have affection for the people you lead.” — Air Force General (quoted by Brené) [06:40]

2. The Power of Intentional Language

[07:45-10:22]

• Mike discusses how subtle changes in everyday language can build or erode trust, using examples from parenting and education.
  • “When you use as language what you want to see—I think that’s the language that builds trust and connection.” — Mike Erwin [08:44]
• Brené notes that directing towards behaviors ("walk, please" vs. "stop running") is neurologically more effective, reinforcing the importance of affirmation-focused communication.

3. Coalition Building and Relationship as Foundation

[10:23-11:38]

• No true coalition can be built without relationships. While urgency sometimes forces quick action, meaningful and lasting change requires investing in connections across differing viewpoints.
  • “When you bring people together... you find that common ground, people start to see, ‘Okay, this idea that you have, I can maybe get on board with that.’” — Mike Erwin [11:14]

4. Loyalty—Light and Shadows

[11:47-14:57]

• Loyalty is a double-edged sword: it can create strong bonds or trap people in negative situations.
• Distinction between other-focused loyalty (where accountability and forgiveness are present) and self-focused loyalty (transactional, manipulative).
  • “When loyalty starts to move us out of our values, it actually becomes transactional, not relational.” — Brené Brown [14:17]
• Mike expresses concern about the growing transactional nature of the world, highlighting the intentional choice to put people first—even when it’s hard.

5. Digital Communication vs. Real Connection

[14:57-17:32]

• Social media and digital platforms facilitate communication, but not connection:
  • “Connection requires something far more complex... There’s an emotional exposure and vulnerability to communicating and to relationship that is completely flattened when it’s just communicating.” — Brené Brown [15:12]
• Mike shares the story of a general witnessing the absence of physical comfort provided to a grieving family, underlining how people need presence—beyond digital gestures.

6. Stability and Creating a Healthy Culture

[17:50-24:23]

• Stability in leadership is about creating a healthy, calm, and productive culture—even amid chaos and uncertainty.
  • “Love shared between people is a powerful stabilizing force. Our relationships ground us in our commitment to each other, even as our circumstances become uncertain or quickly change.” — Brené Brown (reading Mike’s quote) [18:37]
• Reference to “VUCA” (volatile, unpredictable, chaotic, ambiguous) and how relational leadership anchors people in turbulent times.
• In the shadow of COVID-19 and racial reckoning, relationships were frayed, and this affected our collective well-being.
  • “We’re not okay because it (relationship and connection) is everything.” — Brené Brown [25:10]

7. The Hardness—and Worth—of Relationships

[26:03-29:03]

• Building relationships is challenging, resource-intensive, and emotionally demanding, but ultimately the most rewarding and grounding work of leadership and life.
  • “Embrace the suck. Because it’s worth it. It’s all there really is.” — Brené Brown [28:56]
• Mike affirms: “It’s worth all of the stress and the struggles and the emotional roller coaster... that come with leaning in and really engaging deeply with other human beings.” [26:05]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sacrificing our personal comfort for the good of others.” — Mike Irwin, defining vulnerability [29:20]
• “Level five leadership... is really about having personal humility, but like a relentless commitment and drive for the mission and for the people that you’re on that mission with.” — Mike Irwin [29:41]
• “You just need to embrace the suck.” — Mike Irwin, advice to Brené on marathon training (and life) [27:35]
• “Prioritizing relationship building and decency is often the best way to... create healthy stability amid chaos.” — Brené Brown [23:10]
• “Other people matter, period.” — Mike Irwin quoting positive psychology mentor Chris Peterson [35:34]

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Rapid Fire with Mike Irwin

[29:08-34:19]

• Vulnerability is... “Sacrificing our personal comfort for the good of others.” [29:20]
• Remarkable leadership advice: Level five leadership: combining humility with relentless drive (citing Jim Collins). [29:41]
• Favorite concert: Pat Green at Fort Hood, 2004 [30:33]
• Favorite meal: Homemade spaghetti and meatballs with his family every Sunday [31:03]
• Leadership lesson to relearn: Slowing down, being present, and disconnecting from constant busyness [31:29]
• Deep gratitude: Family, friends, and people to share the journey with [32:41]
• Mini mixtape: Mike’s list reveals his enthusiasm, eclecticism, and how music energizes him [33:45-33:59]

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Closing Reflections

[34:19-end]

• Brené sums up that every lesson in Leadership Is a Relationship is vital—not only for offices and teams but for families and friends.
• Mike’s lasting message: Relationships require immense effort, but “that is the true richness and joy of life.” [34:45]
• Mike quotes his mentor: “Anything you do that builds relationships... is going to make you happy.” [35:36]
• Final takeaway: “Relationships, embrace the suck. They’re hard. But you can’t give up on people, ‘cause we’re all we have.” — Brené Brown [36:18]

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Trust & Vulnerability: [03:54-05:54]
• The Impact of Language: [07:45-10:22]
• Coalition Building: [10:23-11:38]
• Loyalty’s Upsides and Shadows: [11:47-14:57]
• Communication vs. Connection: [14:57-17:32]
• Stability in Leadership: [17:50-24:23]
• The Labor (and Value) of Relationship: [26:03-29:03]
• Rapid Fire Segment: [29:08-34:19]
• Closing Reflections: [34:19-end]

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Final Thought

This episode is a passionate, practical exploration of how deep relationships—even when difficult—are essential for leadership, healing, and navigating today’s unstable world. Through stories, research, and classic Brené humor, listeners are reminded: embrace the suck—because relationships are everything.

Transcript

[Brene Brown]

Hey y', all, this is Barrett Guillen. I'm back with Mike Irwin. Part two. I told you the first one was gonna be so good. I'm gonna let Brene take it from here, but here's part two. Brene Brown Mike Irwin on Dare to Lead hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Dare to Lead. Today I'm talking to Mike Irwin, who is the and CEO of the Character and Leadership center team Red, White and Blue and the Positivity Project. He's also the co author of Lead Yourself first, which focuses on how solitude strengthens people's character and their ability to lead with clarity, balance and conviction. We're talking today about his new book, Leadership as a Relationship, which is about seven functions of relationship building. And whether you're a leader or you're thinking about your family, you're thinking about friends, it's a really beautiful conversation about the importance of prioritizing our relationships as people and also as leaders. I'm glad y' all are here. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Each Apple product, like the iPhone, is thoughtfully designed by skilled designers. The titanium Apple Card is no different. It's laser etched, has no numbers, and it earns you daily cash on everything you buy, including 3% back on everything at Apple. Apply for Apple Card on your iPhone in minutes, subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more at applecard.com avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte.

[Mike Irwin]

Paint, finish and satin or what that.

[Brene Brown]

Clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today. Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about Mike. He is a leader who has dedicated his life to serving the nation and empowering people to build positive relationships and become more resilient in community. And I met Mike 1012 years ago at West Point when I went to do some leadership work with the cadets and then met Mike and spent some time with Mike and we've been friends since. I've done some work with Team Red, White and Blue, the veterans group with him and he's just an incredibly dynamic, smart, funny, loving person. Mike is a 2002 graduate of the U.S. military Academy at West Point. He has A bachelor's degree in economics, he was commissioned as an intelligence officer. He served three combat tours with the 1st Cavalry Division and 3rd Special Forces Group Airborne, and he has earned two Bronze Star medals from. From these tours. He attended the University of Michigan, where he earned a master's degree in positive psychology. He continues to proudly serve the Nation as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. army Reserves, assigned to the U.S. military Academy as an assistant professor. Let's jump into the conversation. All right, we're back for our second episode. I have so many thoughts. Okay, Trust. So here's what you write. You know, I love the trust chapter because it's got the V word in it. It's got lots of vulnerability. Come on. Be forthcoming with your own vulnerability and use language that equalizes you and the people around you. Speak intentionally to humble yourself and build trust. One big lesson. Strip away unnecessary formalities and process to build intimacy and shared trust. What do you have if you don't have trust?

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely. I mean, pretty interesting coming from someone from the military, right, where there's all this rank and this structure and all that.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, I thought about that.

[Mike Irwin]

The powerful story there is we interviewed Bob McDonald, former CEO of Procter & Gamble and the Secretary of the VA under President Obama, a personal mentor of mine and a friend. All I did is call me Bob. But he stepped into the secretary role for the VA, which is one of the largest federal agencies, over 300,000 employees. And he really tried to say, look, if you're going to sit there and view me as the secretary and have all these formalities and all that, how are you supposed to ever trust me that I'm working on your behalf? And so it doesn't mean that there's not a place for formality. Of course there is. There are certain places when it's important to know. But Bob, as he pointed out, said, everyone knows I'm the secretary. Like, why do you have to call me the secretary? And I thought that was really powerful because. And this goes back, actually, to a big learning point from Lead Yourself First. Right. The first book where we talk a lot about humility and a lot about the importance for leaders to know that really without other people, you're not a leader. Leadership by definition, right, Requires other people. And so if you put yourself up on some pedestal, which, as we all know, leaders are prone to do, because so many people are often telling you how great you are and how important you are to the organization, you can start to believe the hype and bringing that lesson forward to this. I really think that humility also matters here. It's very difficult. I see so few instances when someone has trust in a leader who is arrogant or who doesn't have the humility to know that, guess what? I breathe the same air that you do. I bleed red. Right. I still need food and water. And that, yes, I might be up here in terms of the rank or how long I've been with the organization, but I'm still a human being. And I think that having that default mindset allows you to connect better and build stronger relationships with people across the organization, regardless of how long they've been there or what their role is.

[Brene Brown]

I did some work with the Air Force, and we took a group of folks, new squadron commanders, through Dear to lead. And when we got there, the general who was over the base had everyone seated, but not by rank. Everyone was kind of mixed up. And, boy, you could tell it was super uncomfortable for folks. And I said, you know me, I'm just going to ask, like, what do I call you? And he just told me his call sign. He said this. And I said, what do I call everybody else? And he goes, well, they're call signs. And he said, we can't do this. Work around vulnerability and trust and Dare to Lead. Rank will get in the way. And he said, so it was. I thought. I kept thinking of him when I was reading this. And I also thought about him when he said I was kind of scared to mention to him that there was this new finding in the Dare to lead research that said, care for and connection with the people we lead is an irreducible requirement. And I was like, this is not gonna go over well. Cause these are fighter pilots. And they're gonna tell me, well, you don't have to care for me. You just have to follow directions or whatever. And he said, that's a very low bar for us. And I said, what? And he goes, our bar is affection. We insist that you have affection for the people you lead. So when love in your book, I wasn't surprised. You have to care for people totally.

[Mike Irwin]

And I mean, we see this outside Fort Bragg. Some of the most elite Special Forces soldiers in the world are my friends. And they use the word love. They use these words, trust, all the time. It's just a foundational part of how they think about one another. Absolutely.

[Brene Brown]

I want to get some teaching from you on this. Seemingly trivial changes to the words we use can build or erode trust. Say more.

[Mike Irwin]

So I think about this a lot through the lens of the trainings. I would lead at the Positivity project, Actually, this is something that we heard a lot from teachers in conversations with them. And I started thinking about the application in my own life as a parent. But think about the difference in the language. You want the same outcome. You want your child to eat their food at the table instead of at the couch. And it's, stop eating on the couch. Right. Get in there. Right. Or can you please go eat at the table? You're trying to drive the same behavior outcome, but the words that you choose to use, they land so differently. And it's not saying that, of course, you have to use times when you tell people to stop doing this or don't do this, but big believer in the power of affirmational language and telling people what you want to see from them versus what you want to see them stop doing.

[Brene Brown]

A hundred percent.

[Mike Irwin]

And it's not easy, but it's something that's trainable. Right. And over time, you can work at it, and you'll catch yourself slip up and say, oh, geez, I should have said that better. But when you use that as language of what you want to see, I think that's the language that builds trust and connection between people. Because again, I don't know how to describe it. I don't know the neuroscience behind it, but it's just. It lands differently when you're telling people the positive thing you want them to do versus the negative thing you want them to stop doing. Like, stop bragging versus show humility.

[Brene Brown]

And I think there's a lot of neuroscience behind it. I think you see that air traffic controllers are notorious globally for not talking about barriers or stopping doing things, but directing to where we want people to go. And I remember Steve and I met coaching swimming, and I was over the lifeguards, and I remember telling them, and I don't know where I learned it, but when you whistle, I don't want to hear any, you know, stop running. Stop running. Stop running. As opposed to whistle. Walk, please. Walk, please. And you could literally see when you blew a whistle, all the kids kind of stopped. And if you said, don't run, they would look at you and then just start running. And if you blew the whistle and said walk, please, they look at you and just start walking. Yeah. So I think language and trust is huge.

[Mike Irwin]

So much more effective.

[Brene Brown]

So much more effective. I think it's about calling attention to the behavior you want versus calling attention to what you want to stop. It just doesn't make neurological sense, I don't think.

[Mike Irwin]

Agreed.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. Coalition Building patient and mission driven people do the slow work of pulling people together and keeping them bound as they work toward ambitious change. Tell me, can you build coalition without relationship?

[Mike Irwin]

No. No, you definitely can't. And this is tricky, right, because we live in a world where often things do need to happen quickly in certain places. We know, Brian, obviously that you can over consensus build. Right to your point. You may never get full buy in from everybody on something especially that's a big, bold, audacious operation or a big change. But I do think that when we invest in the relationships and we know that we need to bring people who have different opinions of one another and of what should happen here. When you bring people together and in the case there, you drink tea, you go for a run together, you just sit down and talk about things, soccer, you find that common ground, people start to see, okay, this idea that you have, I can maybe get along with that, I can get on board with that. And so I think that again, the relationships are foundational to be able to bring different people and different groups together to achieve that common outcome.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, the next one I know is so big for you, is so big for me, but it's got an underbelly that we're going to have to talk about too.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

So loyalty.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh yeah.

[Brene Brown]

So you write, if loyalty can be the glue that holds us together, can also be bastardized to trap people in dysfunctional, frustrating or even abusive situations, all in the supposed name of fidelity. Loyalty compounds when people don't just pay favors back, but also decide to pass the loyalty that they were shown onward. So what is and what isn't loyalty?

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, this is such a complicated topic and deep underbelly and obviously we tried to shed some light on it through the stories and through some of the narrative, but you just think of the problems that emerge when you may be loyal to someone. You know, the idea of loyal to a fault. And there's some amazing stories. One of my friends shared with me the other day, a powerful story of somebody who had essentially saved one of his friend's life and how he was loyal to that person for the rest of his life because of what he had done. We think about this often in terms of military and veterans and the loyalty that we often show to each other because of the common sacrifice that we made on a deployment. But there is, there's obviously a dark side to this and people can manipulate and they can keep people and string them along and they can harness the relationship they have with them to keep them loyal for their own Good, not the good of that person.

[Brene Brown]

That's the difference, right?

[Mike Irwin]

Totally. For me, that's where I split it. There is. It's. Are you really interested in the person you have relationship with or the group that you have relationship with? Are you really interested in them, their best interest in achieving their full potential, or are you really interested in leveraging them to help you to accomplish what it is that you want? And it's really hard because there's sometimes, I think, a very thin line between that because loyalty is such a powerful emotional force in certain environments, you know?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. When I was reading this, I think about some of the theory building I did in the back of Atlas of the Heart. And I kind of came to this way of thinking about other focused loyalty and self focused loyalty. And that other focused loyalty can be a powerful and amazing thing. But the people who I'm loyal to, I also hold accountable. I also give and want to receive forgiveness. And so it's like when loyalty starts to move us out of our values, it actually becomes transactional, not relational.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes. That is so powerful. And like, I literally before our conversation today, as I'm out there walking, doing the chores and trying to get my mind calm and be thinking, that's the phrase I kept coming back to, that the world, in many cases, has become more transactional and less relational, for sure. And that's why we wrote this book, because it's deeply concerning to me. And look, some things in life have to be transactional. When you think about leadership, it transcends transactional. It's about inspiration, it's about connection, it's about something deeper than that. And I think that goes right to your point that you just made about loyalty.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And it's interesting because we think about the whole subtitle of the book is how to Put People first in the Digital World. I think about the mythology that the digital world, social media platforms are connecting platforms. They're not. They're communication platforms. We can communicate. Communicate with each other on them. But connection requires something far more complex. I always think about if something really hard happened and you and I were kind of close friends, and let's say I lost my job and I go on Facebook and say, hey, everybody, I lost my job today. I could get a lot of people communicating back, like, I'm so sorry, that sucks. Screw your boss or whatever. But the vulnerability and humility it takes to pick up the phone and say, hey, Mike, it's Brene. Do you have a few minutes? I'm really having a hard time. And you saying, yeah, what's going on? There's an emotional exposure and a vulnerability to communicating and to relationship that is completely flattened when it's just communicating. It's absent the electricity of relationship.

[Mike Irwin]

So deep. Yeah. And that is so powerful. And I think that that's where social media and all these other things, these platforms. But you said they're communication tools. I think that in many ways it makes a lot of us think that, hey, I've done my piece, I've made my comment on that post, or maybe even sent a text message or a DM to somebody. But ultimately people need more than that. They need. And I think about the powerful story that then Lt. Gen. Frank Kearney, as Team Red White Blue was getting off the ground, he talked about. He told the story of when he was there and a family had just lost their child to an IED roadside bomb in Iraq. And. And he said, I'll never forget the exact words on the day that they need someone to come up and wrap their arms around them and give them a hug on a day they need that more than ever in their life. No one does it because they're afraid they might say the wrong thing.

[Brene Brown]

That's right.

[Mike Irwin]

I remember that. Just hitting everybody in the audience there, right between the eyes with like, wow. But this is exactly the thing. The conversation going beyond just the post is so critical. And we're going to bring this back to again, the power of relationships. I think those next level steps are actually the thing we need to do to build relationships. And I think a lot of us think that we're doing enough by simply making a comment. And I just don't think that's true.

[Brene Brown]

No. And the most generous thing I can say is it's a misunderstanding about what people need. And the least generous thing I could say is it's chicken shit. Because picking up the phone or going to someone's house who's going through a very hard time is so excruciatingly vulnerable.

[Mike Irwin]

Totally, very difficult.

[Brene Brown]

There's some hard stuff. All right, I am going to reach for this quote, but first we're gonna talk about stability. This is the last of the seven. Boy, this was really helpful for me. This was so helpful for me. You write, stability is about creating a culture and giving people a healthy environment in which to grow. I'm going into my book, into my little tag here. I'm on page 134. I got you all marked up, Mike. I got you all marked up.

[Mike Irwin]

Humbling.

[Brene Brown]

Why are you laughing? Y' all can't see him, but he's laughing.

[Mike Irwin]

Just because. It's pretty humbling that Renee Brown's read your book and has marked it all up, and it's pretty cool.

[Brene Brown]

I'm going to read this, and then I want to read something from our friend Jim Collins.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

So you write. Love shared between people is a powerful stabilizing force. Our relationships ground us in our commitment to each other, even as our circumstances become uncertain or quickly change. Okay, I want to read something to you. Sometimes I hate reading this because it's so daunting. Because you know Jim.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

He doesn't mess around.

[Mike Irwin]

No.

[Brene Brown]

He quotes Edward T. O', Donnell, a professor of history, that says history is the study of surprises. Jim writes, we are living history. Surprise after surprise after surprise. And just when we think we've had all the big surprises for a while, along comes another one. If the first two decades of the 21st century have taught us anything, it's that uncertainty is chronic, instability is permanent, disruption is common, and we can neither predict nor govern events. As I was reading your book, I mean, that scares everybody shitless, including myself. Right. Scary. Relationships are such a balm for this. It's such a healing antidote to this. You're not saying that relationships will make the world more stable? I think what you're saying is they'll make us more stable in a world that seems to have gone nuts.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep. That's unstable. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Is that what you're saying?

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've heard the phrase before from the military. It's called the Vuca environment. Volatile, unpredictable, chaotic, and ambiguous. Those four terms, they all kind of seem like they're cousins or they're related to each other, but string them together and you're really talking about the fog of war. I think that with the pace of change, automation, technology, all the things happening, I just think there's this chronic instability. I think that's a pretty safe bet. And so that's exactly it. The relationship, it provides the stability to us amid all of the changing things. Again, some of the examples we talked about in the story, but one of them is actually one of my personal friends here, the CAPS family. And talking about how through all the instability of the deployments and everything going on, how important the relationship was to keep one another as leaders and as members of the family, as stable as possible amid all of the things going on around you. And it's, as you said, Renee, and you just read that there, it's daunting and it can feel overwhelming, and it can feel just Overpowering. But I keep going back to the importance of relationships and helping us to navigate through that. Fellow human beings and in leadership roles, but also in our personal lives, like our relationships are so important to help us to navigate through all of that volatility. I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, and on my podcast we've been talking about the future of AI and media for what seems like forever. But what if I told you that future is already here? So at what point, if any, does a human get involved before it gets sent to my inbox?

[Brene Brown]

Not at all.

[Mike Irwin]

That's Warren St. John, the CEO of Patch, the local news network, telling me how he's producing thousands of newsletters every day just using AI. You can hear our entire conversation on Channels, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

[Brene Brown]

Hello, Daisy speaking. Hello, Daisy. This is Phoebe Judge from the irs. Oh, bless, that does sound serious. I wouldn't want to end up in any sort of trouble. This September on Criminal, we've been thinking a lot about scams. Over the next couple of weeks, we're releasing episodes about a surprising way to stop scammers. The people you didn't know were on the other end of the line. And we have a special bonus episode on Criminal plus with tips to protect yourself. Listen to Criminal wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for criminal [e-mail] okay, before we go to the rapid fire, I'm going to read this quote from you one more time because it's my favorite quote in the book. Love shared between people is a powerful stabilizing force. Our relationships ground us in our commitments to each other even as our circumstances become uncertain or quickly change. Wow.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, thank you. That's sounds even better when you read it and say it.

[Brene Brown]

And let me just go on to say this. This is the big lesson. From there. I have it highlighted, but no need. Cause it's in a box. Again, for readers who like the box and the call out, you're gonna love this. Giving people permission to act like human beings is possible even in highly pressurized, high attrition environments. Prioritizing relationship building and decency is often the best way to counteract that kind of and create healthy stability amid chaos. Because you write, stability isn't just about minimizing turnover. It's about creating a culture that's calm, healthy, and productive for the people in it, whether they stay there forever or not.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, that's exactly right. And it is. I mean, some of these things kind of sound like perhaps Pollyanna Or a pipe dream, you know, like, hey, can you really create a stable environment amid all? And it's not suggesting that relationships is this magic wand and everything is perfect if you can really prioritize and work on and build strong relationships. But I think it helps a lot in helping to deal with all of these challenges that we as leaders and we as human beings face on the daily.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot because I think one of the reasons why so many of us are still not really back in our skin and completely okay coming out of the pandemic and the racial reckoning is that the pandemic was that chaotic, scary, uncertain environment that separated some of us. So the stabilizing force of relationship was also threatened in that. In some ways. And I tell people all the time, because I'll go and talk to big companies and they'll say, people are not okay. And I said, no, people are not okay. Because if people were okay coming out of this and there were no bruises and scratches and stretch marks from this, then that would tell me that relationship and connection is not important.

[Mike Irwin]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

We're not okay because it is everything.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Brene Brown]

And we're putting it back together again.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah. And as you just said there, it's a process. It's a process to put it back together. And as you've talked about in some of your writings since. But some people lost loved ones.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Mike Irwin]

Who they never got to say goodbye to. There's a lot of those things that happened in that window, but beyond that is just the separation. And I think that you don't just go up, I'm gonna go turn the light switch back on. And, like, everything's back at it. It takes time to reestablish it. And I think that a lot of people, as you just said, are still very much on that journey back.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And I don't think the book is Pollyanna, because you're pretty clear throughout the book. This is almost subversive, resource, heavy lift. You just say, it's worth it.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, totally. That's the big takeaway. Right. Is that it's hard. Right. It's difficult, but it's worth the effort. And summed up in one basically sentence, that's it. It's worth all of the stress and the struggles and the emotional roller coaster and all the things that come with leaning in and really engaging deeply with other human beings. It's worth it.

[Brene Brown]

It's worth it. So one time, many years ago, I was trying to train for a 5k because this real Pain in the ass guy who was running this veterans organization called team red, white, and blue. And we were going to train a bunch of their folks, said that in addition to training their folks, they were going to start the day with a 5K. And then I said, well, that's nice. We'll meet you afterwards. And he said, you don't have to run it with us, but it'd be really great. You could walk it. I mean, there'll be people there with double amputations and in wheelchairs, but if you don't want to go, you don't need to go. And I was like, God dang it. I was like, okay, I'll do it. And then I called this guy about two weeks before it, and I said, this is bullshit. This is not working. I can't do it. I cannot propel my way forward for 5km. It's just too. And then he said, ma', am, it's not supposed to be easy. You just need to embrace the suck. And so I ran through my neighborhood for the next two or three weeks embracing the suck and actually chanting, embrace the suck. Embrace the suck. And then I ran it with none other than right here, Mike Irwin, who was the man in question. So when I think about, he's laughing really hard. Y' all can't see him. Do you remember this conversation?

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, I do. I do, absolutely. And I tell you, like, there's certain conversations that stick with you, and that was one of them, because I remember it registered the idea of embrace the sock. I remember it actually seemed to make a difference. And I was like, you know, I don't know. I just was probably talking in my motivational teaching cadet mindset. I probably just finished teaching up at west point, But I do, and I'm so proud that we still have that picture of you, like, and you wearing your team red, white, and blue shirt across. I still just. It was awesome.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. You know what motivated me the most is when he said, don't worry. If you decide to walk it, we'll circle back for you. We don't leave people behind. I was like, this is bullshit. I was like, I'm going. I'm running. And then I made Barrett do it with me. She was like, this is your weird relationship with Mike Irwin, not mine. I was like, embrace the suck.

[Mike Irwin]

So proud of you, Renee.

[Brene Brown]

But now I talk about embrace the suck, and I tell the story all the time when I talk about vulnerability. But I feel like you're saying the same thing here again. Relationships are hard. They're messy. They're unpredictable. We risk getting hurt. We risk being misunderstood. We have to dig deep for forgiveness and grace for ourselves and other people. But embrace the suck. Cause it's worth it. It's all there really is.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, you just summed it up right there. That was awesome.

[Brene Brown]

You ready for the rapid fire?

[Mike Irwin]

Sure, absolutely.

[Brene Brown]

I wanted this to be payback and make it really hard, but I couldn't. But. Okay, ready?

[Mike Irwin]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

Fill in the blank. For me, vulnerability is.

[Mike Irwin]

Sacrificing our personal comfort for the good of others.

[Brene Brown]

Dang. What's one piece of leadership advice that you've been given that's so remarkable you need to share it with us or so shitty you need to warn us?

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, geez. Well, I got a lot, you know, in both categories. You know, for me, I go back to Jim Collins and as you know, I had an opportunity to spend time with him at West Point over a two year period. But I love his thoughts on level five leadership. That it's really about having personal humility, but like a relentless commitment and drive for the mission and for the people that you're on that mission with.

[Brene Brown]

God, I really love that. Okay, ready? Last TV show you binged and loved.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, geez. I am not very much in the TV phase of my life right now with the age of my kids.

[Brene Brown]

You have five kids. How old are they?

[Mike Irwin]

They're 2 to 12.

[Brene Brown]

So you're not watching any TV?

[Mike Irwin]

No, no, not much. But you know the one, I'm. I'm old school. Like, I would say the Office, like, so if I watch one, it would be the office. So.

[Brene Brown]

Favorite concert?

[Mike Irwin]

Favorite concert I've ever been to.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Mike Irwin]

This will resonate from a Texan standpoint, but Pat Green? Yeah, I went to Pat Green in his heyday when I was a lieutenant at Fort Hood 2004. It was at Point some. Some epic big place outside of Austin and Hill country. And they actually recorded the video for Carry on at that concert. And like he played it like six or seven times, you know. But Pat Green was. The energy on those concerts was absolutely amazing in the early 2000s.

[Brene Brown]

Oh my God, I love Pat Green so much. Such a text. Okay, favorite meal.

[Mike Irwin]

My favorite meal is homemade spaghetti and meatballs. We do that here every Sunday night. So my daughters, like, they make homemade pasta and like homemade meatball meatballs and. Yeah, it's awesome.

[Brene Brown]

Wow. Okay. What is the leadership lesson? The really hard one that you have to keep learning and relearning and unlearning because the universe keeps putting it in front of you.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, geez. So how much time do you have? So I would say that. And I think it's the soul of both of my books, Lead yourself first and leadership is a relationship. But, like. Like, I need to relearn that I can't keep up with the pace of life, because no matter what, there's always so much to do and so many things going on. And so I need to relearn the lesson, to slow down, to think and reflect and focus enough in a given day. For example, in preparation for our conversation today. Needing to actually have a barrier of time and at the same time, to be able to step away from the work and the pace of life, to be fully present and focused on the people in front of me. And, you know, this is something that I just, you know, the phone's there. It's a temptation. And sometimes when you get to a point in a conversation with a family member or a friend or teammate, you pick up your phone and you start looking for something to give you a dopamine splash. So I think that's really it for me. It's. I need to keep relearning those lessons of stepping back from the pace of life.

[Brene Brown]

God, me too, my friend. What's one thing that you're really deeply grateful for right now?

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, geez. I actually just watched a video that I actually made a comment on this, on my stories, but it was Thanksgiving, and it was about. They went to all the players from the US Men's National Team, and they asked, what are you grateful for? And I heard they showed a video, like, nine players and Lily for all of them. My family and my friends. My family and my friends, my parents, my family, people. The answer to that question is people. The family, the friends, the teammates, the people who I get to do life with. And whether it's here on my homestead or with Team Red, White, and Blue, or the positivity project or anything I'm involved in, I'm just grateful for the people that I'm on the journey with.

[Brene Brown]

I love that. Okay, we asked you for five songs you couldn't live without.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes.

[Brene Brown]

Here we go.

[Mike Irwin]

Very eclectic.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. Crazy Game of Poker by Oar Triumph by the Wu Tang Clan.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

Levels by Avicii, Battle Belongs by Phil Wickham and Carry on by Pat Green. In one sentence, what does this mini mixtape say about Mike Irwin?

[Mike Irwin]

In one sentence, I am a person with a wide range of passions who tackles challenges before me with enthusiasm.

[Brene Brown]

I can vouch for that, y'. All.

[Mike Irwin]

I love music for the energy it gives and whether it's like Christian music or Texas country or house or hip hop or rock and roll, the one requirement is for it to give me energy. And all those songs are ones that if it were to come on right now, my energy level would be up by about 20 points.

[Brene Brown]

I love this. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. Thank you for. Leadership is a relationship. I think you can take every lesson from here and apply it. When I think about these seven things in here. Accountability, stability, forgiveness, trust. This is what I want with my kids, with my partner. These are the benefits of investing in relationships across the board.

[Mike Irwin]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what I really love about this whole conversation, beyond the chance to be able to catch up and just spend an hour, it's a true honor hearing how you distilled it down about 10, 15 minutes ago. These things are. They're hard, but they're worth it. You know, relationships are hard. And connecting with other people is challenging and difficult, but it's worth it. And that's really the number one message that I want people to take from the book. When you're in a leadership role, and it looks so different depending on what chapter of life you're in and where you're at and what's going on, but to invest in and to take the time and the energy and the effort to pour into other people, to allow them to pour into you, that is the true richness and the joy of life. And I'll just point that back to the research of positive psychology. And when I learned from my late mentor, Dr. Chris Peterson, he would say, I can sum up all the research of positive psychology in three words. Other people matter, period.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Irwin]

Anything you do that builds relationships in and among people is going to make you happy. And those words, they ring in my ears every day. They remind me that that difficult conversation or that bad interaction or that amazing experience I had with someone, it's all a part of the beauty and the stress and the chaos, but the beauty of life, I love it.

[Brene Brown]

Mike Irwin, thank you so much. I'm such a pleasure to talk to you, to see your face again, to catch up.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes. Well, thank you, Renee. I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation today.

[Brene Brown]

That's it, really, y'.

[Mike Irwin]

All.

[Brene Brown]

I mean, this is it. Relationships embrace the suck. They're hard. But you can't give up on people. Cause we're all we have. You can find all of Mike's books wherever you like to buy books. We'll put links to everything on the episode page. Also how you can find Mike some of his papers on brene brown.com we are grateful that you're here with us. Love, love and stability. I'll take both. Stay awkward, brave and kind, y'. All. Dare to Lead is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. Music is by the Sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to Lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning [e-mail] I just gotta get out most days you see I like walking around it's good for me could you do for me? Well we could go Haiti Take me to the good towns I just gotta get out most days you see I like walking around it's good for me could you tell me where we could go eat? Take me to the good towns.