Courageous Leadership as a Daily Practice

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
Episode: Courageous Leadership as a Daily Practice
Date: June 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a dynamic conversation between Brené Brown, research professor and bestselling author, and Adam Grant, organizational psychologist and author, originally recorded live at "Authors at Wharton". The central theme is courageous leadership—not as a trait, but as a deliberate, everyday practice. Blending qualitative and quantitative perspectives, Brené and Adam discuss learning as a continuous pursuit, the power of asking questions, values-driven leadership, vulnerability, and actionable strategies for both seasoned and emerging leaders. Their back-and-forth models curiosity, challenge, and collaboration in real time.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shift From Knowing to Learning

• Modern Leadership Challenge: Both agree that our culture often rewards the appearance of certainty and being a "knower" rather than a "learner."
• Quote:

  “I’m wondering why the value has shifted from courage as being a knower instead of courage as being a learner. That’s not going to serve us right now.”
  — Brené Brown (03:07)

• Leaders’ needs: Organizations want people "who have exquisite questions and are really hungry to solve problems."
  — (03:55)

2. The Art of Asking Great Questions

• Methodology: Brené unpacks grounded theory, highlighting the “spill question” — asking open, non-directive questions to reach someone’s core concern.

  “The questions I ask are really about getting to what your main concern is, not what I think it is or what the world portrays it as.”
  — Brené Brown (06:14)

• Real-World Application: In organizations, she spends weeks just asking questions, especially, "What keeps you up at night?" (06:14–07:01)

3. Breaking Through Defensiveness and “Playing to Win”

• Addressing Senior Leaders’ Resistance:

  “What’s more important to you? To protect your ego or to win? … Playing not to lose is always losing.”
  — Brené Brown (07:09)

• Adapting for Students/Younger Employees: She recommends aligning on clear, measurable goals and seeking permission to lead in one’s own effective way, involving a critical step of “playback” for mutual understanding. (08:11–10:27)

4. The Power of the Playback and Building Trust

• Playback as Core Practice: Echoing FBI negotiator Chris Voss, she emphasizes that a simple confirmation (“That’s right”) after playback forges deep connection and trust.
• Quote:

  “What’s missing for new MBA students, new business students, just younger leaders … is the playback.”
  — Brené Brown (12:11)

• Motivation Theory: Adam connects this to Victor Vroom’s expectancy theory — don’t project your motivations; discover theirs first. (13:30–14:02)

5. Values-Driven Leadership

• Values as Sacrifice:

  “It’s not just what you care about, it’s what you sacrifice for.”
  — Adam Grant (15:12)

• Distilling Core Values:

  “They never had more than one or two core values…these two are where everything else is forged.”
  — Brené Brown (16:19)

• Personal Example: Brené’s core values: faith and courage. (17:11)
• Practical Exercise: Circle 15 possible values, then distill to two that are “home base and fire for everything else.” (17:13–18:07)
• Operationalizing Values: True leadership requires translating values into observable behaviors and identifying “indicator lights” when out of alignment. (18:07–19:22)

6. Four Skill Sets of Courageous Leadership

• The Four Skill Sets:
  1. Living into your values
  2. Rumbling with vulnerability
  3. Building trust—with others and self
  4. Resetting/bouncing back from failure
• Teaching Order: Start with values before vulnerability—people are more willing to be vulnerable when they see it directly tied to living their values. (19:24–21:03)

7. Turning Values Into Daily Behaviors

• Behavioral Standards:

  “I don’t talk about people. I talk to people.”
  — Brené Brown (23:14)

• Learning from Integrity Hangovers: Recognize the physical and emotional cost of violating your own standards. (23:26–24:03)
• The “Story I’m Making Up” Tool:

  “Our brain is wired for story … the ability to check the stories they’re making up.”
  — Brené Brown (24:58, 27:17)

  • Practical use: Disarm misunderstandings by naming the story you’re making up and respectfully checking in. (27:17–29:52)

8. Vulnerability and Fear in Leadership

• Vulnerability Isn’t a Fad—It’s Enduring:

  “Just because the concept is more popular doesn’t mean the behavior is more popular…What gets in the way of courage is armor.”
  — Brené Brown (41:07)

• Fear vs. Armor: Recognizing and naming self-protective behaviors (micromanaging, perfectionism) as signals of fear. (41:07–42:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Care for and connection with the people you lead is an irreducible prerequisite of courageous leadership. And if you do not ... you will never see performance, period.”
  — Brené Brown (01:16 & 08:11)

• “If you want to motivate someone, you have to know what they value.”
  — Adam Grant (13:45)

• “Integrity with an eagle…What does it even mean? And so then we have people operationalize their values into behaviors, find indicator lights when they’re out of alignment.”
  — Brené Brown (18:07)

• “If there’s no uncertainty, no risk, and no exposure, you’re not being that brave.”
  — Brené Brown (21:15)

• “Here is the story I’m making up…The ability to check the stories they're making up.”
  — Brené Brown (24:58, 27:18)

• “Micromanagement is a function of distrust. And I’m rethinking where I’m being productive in my challenging with my team and where I’m not trusting.”
  — Brené Brown (36:39)

• “There’s no shame in this traditional path not being my path…Nothing wasted.”
  — Brené Brown (38:55)

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Mini Lightning Round Highlights

• Dream Dinner Party?
  “My mom, my grandmother, and my immediate family.” — Brené (33:51)
• Worst Career Advice?
  “Executive presence … I have zero interest in looking, acting, behaving like the people who built the tables that I’m not supposed to be at.” — Brené (34:06–35:02)
• Something Recently Changed Her Mind About:
  “I’m really changing my mind about where those lines exist [between founder energy and over-control].” — Brené (35:28)
• Advice to Freshman Self:
  “There’s no shame in this traditional path not being my path…nothing wasted.” (38:55)
• Balancing Boundaries and Empathy:
  “A good friendship … is reciprocal. And if you primarily play a role where you’re caregiving … that’s not about the people you’re hanging out with, that’s hanging out with yourself a little bit.” (39:27–40:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:16–03:06 | Learning versus Knowing—Setting the Stage for Curiosity
• 04:05–06:14 | Developing the Skill of Asking Great Questions
• 07:01–08:11 | Breaking Through Executive Defensiveness
• 10:27–14:02 | Playback, Negotiation and Motivation Theory
• 14:54–19:22 | Defining and Operationalizing Core Values
• 19:22–21:03 | Four Courageous Leadership Skills & Teaching Order
• 23:14–24:58 | Courage as a Daily Behavioral Practice
• 24:58–29:52 | The Power of Naming Your Story and Vulnerability Tools
• 33:46–38:44 | Lightning Round & Reflections on Career, Boundaries, and Control
• 41:07–42:32 | Vulnerability in Business: Is the Substance Changing?

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Episode Tone and Style

Playful, candid, and deeply inquisitive. Both Brené and Adam challenge each other and the audience, often using humor and personal stories to make complex concepts relatable. There’s a fearless willingness to surface discomfort and "say the thing"—whether it’s about their own work habits, failures, or the broader culture of leadership.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Courageous leadership is not about heroics but about daily, observable practices—especially the courage to ask, listen, and clarify.
• True values are what you sacrifice for, not just what you proclaim.
• Real performance and trust require authentic care and connection—no shortcuts.
• Playback and “the story I’m making up” can dissolve misunderstandings and transform difficult conversations.
• Courage, trust, vulnerability, and values are not abstract—they show up, or don’t, in your day-to-day micro-behaviors.

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Transcript

[Brene Brown]

Hi, everyone. It's Brene and we are on a summer hiatus for the next five weeks. While we're taking a break, we are revisiting some conversations that we really love. We think you're going to enjoy them. This week's episode is a conversation that Adam and I had at Authors at Wharton. It first aired on his podcast Rethinking. I hope you enjoy it. You'll see. A couple times he's got me on the hot seat. I got a real good taste of what it's going to be like to be in his classroom. He tried to drill me down, but fear not, I drilled back. Enjoy.

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[Adam Grant]

It feels good to geico.

[Brene Brown]

Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show

[Adam Grant]

from the Vox Media podcast network.

[Brene Brown]

You do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead. You will never see performance, period.

[Adam Grant]

Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people

[Geico Sponsor]

to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

[Adam Grant]

Brene Brown is a researcher and storyteller

[Geico Sponsor]

who's changed the way I think about vulnerability, shame, empathy, and leadership. She hosts the podcast Dare to Lead where I've loved being a recurring guest. And she's given some of the most

[Adam Grant]

popular TED talks of all time and

[Geico Sponsor]

written six number one New York Times bestselling books. I hosted Brene for a live conversation in the Authors at Wharton series to talk about her brand new book, Strong Ground.

[Adam Grant]

Brene Brown. So excited to have you at Wharton.

[Brene Brown]

Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Geico Sponsor]

She delivers a powerful message about courageous leadership.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you.

[Geico Sponsor]

The world desperately needs. And our back and forth made my brain buzz and my heart tingle in

[Adam Grant]

the best possible ways. So I was at an event last week in New York. Someone came up to me and after having asked a brilliant question, said, you're my second favorite author and I was very flattered. And then I was like, wait a minute, who's the first? And the answer was Brene Brown. I was just glad to be on the list.

[Brene Brown]

Well, first of all, people are laughing so hard at us. I was trying to. Not with us, not at us, literally. Someone said, I love the podcast. I think of y' all as smart people. And it's so weird to watch you change your minds.

[Adam Grant]

Isn't that what learning is?

[Brene Brown]

To me, the most joyful thing is learning the pursuit, the passionate pursuit of mastery. Like, really having a problem to solve or a strategy to figure out that you almost don't want to figure it out, because trying to solve it is so much fun, and that's so uniquely human. I just. I'm wondering why that's fallen out of favor a little bit. I'm wondering why the value has shifted from courage is being a knower instead of courage is being a learner. That's not going to serve us right now. When I talk to senior leaders all over the world, and they're saying, boy, it's really problematic when people come in and they act like they know everything. What I'm looking for are candidates who have exquisite questions and are really hungry to solve the problem. And so I think we have to shift the thinking there a lot.

[Adam Grant]

I'm inclined to agree with you on that. And asking questions is one of the things that you do best. So I think for those who have not been following Brene's work Since you were 4, I think when I first became acquainted with your work, it was when you were introducing yourself as a narrative researcher, as somebody who studied stories. And I was just blown away by both the breadth and the depth of the questions that you asked people. And I've always wondered how you come up with your questions. You just said, hey, asking great questions is a skill. Can you teach it to us?

[Brene Brown]

I can. And I will definitely not take credit for it. I will definitely go back to Barney Glaser. Glaser and Strauss.

[Adam Grant]

Grounded theory.

[Brene Brown]

Grounded theory. So I'm a grounded theory researcher, and Anselm and Strauss were trying to develop a methodology for studying children who were dying. And back when they were trying to do it in the early 60s, there was a pact when a child was dying that the nurses, physicians and parents and religious folks, clergy, would not tell the child they're dying. They would keep that information from the child. So Glaser and Strauss were trying to figure out, how can we talk to these children about their experiences when we can't let them know what's happening? So they came up with this idea of just a spill question, which became the real heart of grounded theory, which is, tell me about Your illness. And the children would say, I'm dying and it must be really terrible because not even my parents will tell me about it. Yeah. So in grounded theory, we start with the main concern of the population, and then the theory we develop is how the population is continually resolving that concern. Does that make sense?

[Adam Grant]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

And how we continually resolve those concerns is the basic social process that becomes a grounded theory. Is this too nerdy?

[Adam Grant]

I don't know. We have to ask the idea.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, shit. I mean, who am I asking here? So to me, the questions I ask are really about getting to what your main concern is, not what I think it is or what the world portrays it as. That's the way I work today. So if I go into an organization and I'll spend three weeks just asking questions, I'll just look at a CEO and say, what's on your heart and mind? If you sit up straight in bed at 4 o' clock in the morning, what are you worried about? And then that's what I'm trying to resolve. Yes, I'm listening to investor calls and yes, I'm looking at data, performance data and engagement data. But what I really want to know is what is keeping you up at night and how do we go after that?

[Adam Grant]

I would say the typical CEO I encounter is not that excited to talk about the thing that they're stressed about. How do you break through that barrier?

[Brene Brown]

Fifth generation Texan, you know, why am I here? If you don't want to talk about it, I got shit to do and places to be. So we can either talk about it or I can go home, you know, like, I don't get it, but I think for me, I often talk about playing to win versus playing not to lose. I'm not everybody's cup of tea, as you can imagine, but I just say, look, what's more important to you? To protect your ego or to win? And if you want to win, we're going to have to have these hard conversations. And if you can't have these hard conversations and you continue to play not to lose, let me tell you what that looks like, both on a field and in an organization. Playing not to lose is always losing.

[Adam Grant]

How do you adapt that to the MBA and undergrad students in the room? So it's harder for them to go to their boss or their boss's boss and say, hey, do you want to succeed here or do you want to protect your fragile ego?

[Brene Brown]

I would definitely send that via text. I think the strategy is actually the same. And I was talking to a recent MBA graduate at UT, at McCombs, McCombs has a big program for vets who want to come back and get their mba. And we were talking about how care for in connection with the people you lead is an irreducible prerequisite of courageous leadership. And if you do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead, you will never see performance, period. You might do well in a very short period of time, but we both know without genuine care for and connection with, you don't. And so he asked this question. He said, I come from a setting in the military where caring for and connecting to is a fairly low bar, which I think is true because we both do work in the military. Even the Air Force has without deep affection for the troops you lead, we will move the soldier or we will move you. And so he said, that's how I lead, but it's not accepted by my boss or the senior leaders. And I said, then I would change the focus of the conversation. Here's how I would do the conversation. I would say, if you work for me, I want us to win and I want to contribute to the win. Help me understand what that looks like. What do you need me to do to win? And then Adam would say, here's what we need to win. We need to reduce churn here. We need to increase growth here, and we've got to solve these two problems here. Then I would do this always. Can I play back what I think you're saying? Always the playback. Here's what you're saying. We need to reduce churn. We need to grow this thing by 3% a quarter for the next two quarters. And then we have this problem that we need to solve around supply chain. That's not directly me, but here are the three things I can do to help. And then your boss says, that's exactly right. Okay, I'm going to be on it. I want to ask you one thing. I have a way to win with my team that I think makes me the most effective leader and drives the most performance and trust in my team. I'm clear on what you want. I've played it back for you. I need permission to lead my team. That's exactly how I would do it.

[Adam Grant]

That's powerful. Can you just accompany a bunch of our students to their jobs when they graduate?

[Brene Brown]

No, I don't work for anybody. That's why. But if you're like, oh, is that how leaders talk to each other? Hell, no. One out of a thousand people I meet would have that conversation. Right. It's a rare thing. So you know who I go to. This is why we're such a cute couple on the podcast. Because I don't remember anybody's name. And I'm like, who's that dude? Researcher Baylor. And you're like, the first article came out in 1977.

[Adam Grant]

Try me.

[Brene Brown]

Negotiating FBI.

[Adam Grant]

Chris Voss. Never split the difference.

[Brene Brown]

Thank you. Okay. He knows everybody's name. I can say the carpet is centered. And you're like 16 years of research on carpet centering would show. I mean, this is why I love talking to you. It is really true. It's like you're really good at contextualizing in empiric. We've worked on this.

[Adam Grant]

I'm shaking my head at carpets.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. But you're really good at doing this.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you, Brene.

[Brene Brown]

You're welcome.

[Adam Grant]

Brene told me I was bad at accepting compliments. And a lot of people have given me that feedback. And I take pride in being someone who takes feedback well. And now I'm stuck. I have to say thank you.

[Brene Brown]

There's so many things to compliment you about.

[Adam Grant]

Enough. Okay, so.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. I was doing work with the FBI hostage negotiators because a lot of their work is about emotional resonance, understanding emotion. Right. If I had to give one takeaway from Chris work that I think is really helpful, it's this. Whether hostages or the hostage taker, whether they live or die often comes down to two words. You're the hostage taker and I'm the negotiator for the FBI. And you're telling me what's going on? Like shit. Okay, so let me get this right, Adam. You can never get a fucking break. They took your kids, your wife left you, they shit on you at your job, and nothing ever goes your way, no matter how hard you work. And if you say back to me two words. That's right. There is a connection now that changes all of the variables about survival. It's a human being. Like, we are neurobiologically hardwired to be seen and heard. And that's right. Is really a big part of being able to play back. So what's missing for. I think new MBA students, new business students in general, just younger leaders, New people leaders is the playback. So if I say to Adam. So all you really care about Adam is me reducing churn. And Adam goes, no, reducing churn is part of a three legged stool. I need you to churn. But we have got to have growth. We have to have ARR for three quarters. That looks like this. So that part is missing when you're managing up. Does that make sense? It's a really big part of getting clarity. I hear you. I can play back for you accurately what's happening.

[Adam Grant]

The other thing I love about this is it's classic motivation theory. I'm thinking about Victor Vroom expectancy theory. So many people, when they try to motivate someone, they project their own motivations onto them, as opposed to saying, if I want to motivate you, I've got

[Geico Sponsor]

to know what you value.

[Brene Brown]

That's it.

[Adam Grant]

And so by starting the conversation with that leader and asking, what does success look like for you? I'm now in a better position to ask you for what I want because it's aligned with your values and your goals as opposed to at odds with or unrelated to what you care about.

[Brene Brown]

That's it.

[Geico Sponsor]

This show is brought to you by geico. We've talked a good amount on this show about dealing with uncertainty. It's about being prepared, yes, but it's deeper than that. It's a balance of fortifying your mental attitude while getting ready. In the practical sense, it's about identifying the outcome you want and then securing for yourself and your people some solid insurance. In other words, building the kind of foundation that can handle what may come for a lot of things in life. The Dealing with uncertainty toolkit involves having the right insurance partner. That's where GEICO comes in. They've spent decades showing up for their customers again and again with real savings and genuinely great customer service from people who truly care, knowing that if something goes wrong, when you're on the road, you're not on your own, you're covered. If there's one thing you can be certain about, it's that GEICO will show up for you when it matters. In the face of uncertainty, it feels good to be prepared.

[Adam Grant]

It feels good to Geico. We're going to talk about your new book, Strong Ground. And I think that values are one of the most important parts of this book. You push us all to identify our two core values. As you know, I've been struggling with three generosity and excellence or integrity. And I would love you to walk us through how to figure out what your values are. Maybe I'll just start by saying, for a long time I thought about values just as guiding principles. And I said, it's what you care about. And I think that was incomplete. I think it's not just what you care about, it's what you sacrifice for. One of the ways that I've Become clear about what my values are is. Is to look at the things that I give up and why. I saw myself sacrificing time hanging out with my friends to field people's requests and help them. And that made it clear to me, okay, I'm giving up time with this group of people that I really like because I want to make a contribution here that says to me that being helpful is really important to me. I saw myself in a couple of situations that I regret now wandering into situations where I thought I was probably going to fail. And I was willing to sacrifice my ego because I really wanted to get better. And I saw, okay, that's some combination of excellence and integrity. And so I guess my first question for you is, what do you think about this distinction of values aren't just what you care about, they're what you sacrifice for.

[Brene Brown]

I think I'm going to use it from this split second forward.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, I think yours.

[Brene Brown]

I'll send you a quarter every time I say it. When we were doing the qualitative interviewing of daring leaders who care about performance and culture equally, who care about people and impact, they were so clear and could speak so quickly, and they never had more than one or two core values. And when I would dig in that they would say, no, that's important to me. But these two are where everything else is forged. Like, yes, I care about a lot of things, but these two values, this is where the rubber hits the road. So my two values are faith and courage. And those are two areas where I would be willing to sacrifice and do that on a regular basis. Like, ah, Jesus, I want to hate your guts, but I'm gonna sacrifice hating you because I have to find God in everybody's face.

[Adam Grant]

And you roll your eyes as you say, I do.

[Brene Brown]

God has told me nothing about enjoying the practice at all. But I am willing to sacrifice a lot of things, including my self righteousness, for my values. And I think it's a beautiful and a different way of thinking about where things are forged. So when we give people this ginormous list of values, there's the two places where they really struggle the most was one, they're like, are we talking about personal values or professional values? I was like, you only have one set, like just your values. And then the other question is like, I need 15. And so we always say, circle 15. And then start asking yourself what two are, the home base and the fire for everything else. And we've never had anyone not be able to get there. And we've probably done well, we know we've done it with at least 160,000 people, because that's the data.

[Adam Grant]

We have only 160,000 over six years.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, but we know that people get there. But then what's really exciting is that's where they think they leave it. And I'm not a fan of a value not operationalized into behaviors. Neither are you. And that's what most organizations we go into have all the posters and have done none of the work. Like integrity with an eagle, huh? What does it even mean? And so then we have people operationalize their values into behaviors, find indicator lights when they're out of alignment. So, for example, for me, I know I'm out of alignment with my courage value when I'm in resentment, because I'm probably not being brave enough to ask for what I need or want or I'm not setting a boundary. I'm not being brave in some ways if I'm in resentment. And so that work becomes. It's actually a trick that we do when we first started doing dare to lead work in organizations. The four skill sets of courage have held. They've held through Covid and all the

[Adam Grant]

new data tell us what the four

[Brene Brown]

are Living into your values. The ability to rumble with vulnerability, meaning to be able to be in uncertainty, risk, and exposure, and to stay grounded, emotionally regulated, and make good decisions. The ability to build trust with others and self trust. No one talks about self trust, which is a big thing. And often the first casualty of failure, and then the last is to be able to reset. Can you be responsible for your own bounce after failure, disappointment, and setback? So these are the four skill sets of courage. When we first started teaching it, we taught Rumbling with vulnerability first. And the college students in a course that I taught at ut. At the end, we asked for feedback, and they were like, dude, you need to teach values first. I was like, why? We actually. We did the feedback as a class so they could experience saying hard things to me that were productive and respectful, and we could say things to each other, and they could learn how to be in a hard conversation. And I said, tell me why? And they said, you had to convince us that vulnerability was something we needed to experience and manage. But if you did values first, people would understand intrinsically that if they wanted to live into their values, they would need to be vulnerable and courageous, and you wouldn't have to convince anybody of anything. They're choosing courage. They're choosing generosity. They're choosing excellence. If you want those things and you want to Live into those things, then diving into uncertainty and risk and exposure is not optional.

[Adam Grant]

I love that. It reminds me of an exercise I've been doing for years with students and also with leaders. And I'm going to put you in the hot seat for this one. So, okay, you just mentioned vulnerability. Why is vulnerability important to you?

[Brene Brown]

Because my value is courage. If there's no uncertainty, no risk, and no exposure, you're not being that brave.

[Adam Grant]

Why is courage important to you?

[Brene Brown]

Because the word courage, in its original definition, cur, meaning heart. And the original definition of courage was to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. We are nothing without our story, and to not tell it honestly pulls all the meaning out of our lives. So to me, I want a meaningful life, and I'm going to have to be brave to do that.

[Adam Grant]

Why do you care about having a meaningful life?

[Brene Brown]

I'll be failing this fucking class. Because what's the point if you're not? Wow, that was hard.

[Adam Grant]

It's supposed to be hard. But when somebody has a long list of values, we pick a value and we go through the why, why, why process, and eventually they just kind of throw up their hands and say, because that's who I am, or, because that's important to me, or because otherwise, what's the point? And at that point, I know we've reached a terminal, as opposed to instrumental value. So many of our values are in service of other values. Right? The terminal values are. No, this is core. So I think you landed courage as a core value.

[Brene Brown]

I see you, Adam Grant.

[Adam Grant]

What does that mean?

[Brene Brown]

It was irritating but effective.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so. But then to your point. Yeah, it is annoying. I think it has more comedic effect if you do it this way, but it's much friendlier when it's like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about why that's important to you. We want to then go the other way and say, how. How do you live that value? And that's where you get to your behavioral standards. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit, because I have been just floored by how specific and clear and actionable these are. Can you take us from. Okay, my core value is courage. To how do you come up with behaviors that would fulfill courage and violate courage?

[Brene Brown]

I think the hardest one that I'm working in every day, because it's so valid. I don't talk about people. I talk to people.

[Adam Grant]

And how did you come to that as a behavior that was key to courage?

[Brene Brown]

I think it was from the integrity hangover That I would have after I talked about somebody with someone and thought, a, the person I was talking about deserves more respect than this, and B, the person I was talking to should, in fact trust me less so as a leader instead of shit talking you. And I'm frustrated, I'm going to get unfrustrated first and then I'm gonna talk directly to you. So that is. That's. That's courage in action for me.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I don't wanna be that person. And I would say I have more hard conversations a day than 90% of the people I know seen it.

[Adam Grant]

I can vouch for it. I've been the beneficiary of it.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, we have had a hard conversation or two. Yeah. I go in knowing that I'm very messy and imperfect and I will have had a part when whoever's not going, well, I have a part.

[Adam Grant]

I want to pick up on two things there. The first one is, I think of maybe all the sentences you've ever written. The one that I find myself referencing the most, including when we teach difficult conversations. Here is the story I'm making up is I think about this all the time whenever I go to give someone some feedback or raise an issue that might be a little bit touchy or contentious. Okay. The story I'm making up is. Can you just walk us through how to apply that?

[Brene Brown]

I think that our brain is wired for story. We know that that's not like an advertisement. It's like literally wired for narrative. It's how we've taught and communicated since the beginning of human history. When something hard happens, because our brain is wired for survival above all things, it looks to understand what's happening with a story. And the brain does not like a messy story. The brain likes a very clear story. Bad guy, good guy, dangerous, safe, on your side, against you. So the minute you can give your brain a story that has the bad guy who's against you and what's dangerous, you're literally rewarded chemically with more calm. So let's say Adam and I are in a meeting and I work for Adam, and we walk out of the meeting and I say, great meeting. I'll see you this afternoon. And Adam looks at me and goes, what the fuck? And just walks away. How many of you would be hooked by that if that was your boss, like, triggered, like, oh, shit. And so immediately what the brain says is, what's happening? What's happening, what's happening? And the way it normally plays out is, oh, my God, I pissed him off. I did Something in that meeting, I should have not shared those sales numbers with a client. Oh, my God. What's going on? How many times a day do you think that happens in organizations? A lot. So what we found that fourth quality of courage, you know, the ability to rise, the ability to reset. What those folks had in common more than anything was the ability to check the stories they're making up. And so the first question you ask is, do I know what's happening and do I have enough data? And let me tell you, neurobiologically, they're like, we don't give a shit. Give us a story. Tell us who's who. Tell us who is against us. And so what would happen if I went into my office and I thought, oh, God, I don't know what's going on? That was pretty scary. I need to calm down. For me personally, I know I'll need to walk. I'll loop the parking lot. I'll walk the office. Okay. Hey, Adam, do you have a sec?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

When we were leaving the meeting today and I said, have a great day, you looked at me and you were like, what the fuck? And the story I'm making up is something happened in that meeting that really pissed you off. And I just want to check in with you, and if we've got something to clean up, I'd love the opportunity to clean it up. And then Adam looks at me and said, oh, my God. That meeting was scheduled to end at 10 o'. Clock. We went to 11:15. I have Zumba every Thursday at 10:30. What? The boss. Why were these meetings going so late? Yes or no? And you're like, wait, what about the part where I'm the center of your world and everything you do and say is about me, you know? And so be really honest here, which you are actually never anything but in my experience, to be honest, which is kind of a pain in the ass sometimes.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, you're welcome. That compliment he accepted as a leader who works for you. I knock on your door and say, here's the story I'm making up. Do we have something to clean up? Do you respect me more or less?

[Geico Sponsor]

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[Brene Brown]

Trust me. More or less.

[Geico Sponsor]

More.

[Adam Grant]

Because I know that if there's ever an issue between us, you're gonna bring it to me. As opposed to me wondering what you're thinking but not repeating or maybe gossiping about behind my back.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

This reminds me of something I've been so curious about for a long time and never asked you, which is sometimes I find it helpful to go into a conversation like that when I've made up the story and I'm worried about how it's going to go and just say to the person, I'm actually afraid to have this conversation with you. And I've found that enormously helpful in lowering their defenses. And I'd love to hear your explanation of why.

[Brene Brown]

It's like walking in, hey, good to see you. Vulnerability card. I'm a little anxious about talking to you about this, but you're important to me and this is important to me. And I think it's honest and authentic and it's showing. You're leading with your humanity. You're not leading with your prosecutor. You know, you're not leading with any of your friends. Right. You're just leading with community.

[Adam Grant]

That tracks for me. I think the other thing that sometimes happens is the other person immediately wants to disown. Being terrifying.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

You shouldn't be afraid of me. You can tell me anything. And they actually have to prove that they're open, even if they weren't before.

[Brene Brown]

That gets a little trickier. Yes.

[Geico Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And then I'm like, wait, no, no, I don't want this to be manipulative. I'm just trying to. I'm trying to level with you that this is a hard conversation for me to have.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. That's why I love the story I'm telling myself right now. Or to say, anxious about having this conversation with you, but it's important to me. If you say scared, you could push a certain personality type into defensiveness because what they could go is, Jesus, you think I'm an asshole and they could just derail you. So I think part of this is the self awareness and the relational awareness of knowing what is your relationship with this person.

[Adam Grant]

That's helpful, thank you. Okay. I want to follow up on one other thing that struck me as you were talking about turning values into behaviors.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Which is, I think you've just given us a clue to a different way of living our values than I've always thought about it. I've always had people. I've seen people make a list of their values and then, okay, let's write down and talk through. What does it look like to uphold them, what does it look like to violate them? And there's something both overly cerebral about that and also it's undergrounded in people's day to day experience. And I think what I just heard you tell me is you kind of do a mini qualitative study of yourself. You observe, take the next week or two. And think about the moments where you felt like that wasn't me or I failed at courage today. And then build the list from the ground up.

[Brene Brown]

Yes.

[Adam Grant]

I love this idea.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. Because we ask two questions. Share a time when you were outside of your values and what it felt like in your body. Share a time when you were in your values and what it felt like in your body. And so one of the things that's really interesting is the whole disembodiment thing that we are just not connected to our bodies is also part of strong ground. Like we gotta get reconnected. If I was hiring for one quality, it would be self awareness. And I don't think you can have deep self awareness if you're disembodied because a lot of your self awareness comes from your body. Like they call them feelings because that's where they happen first. Right. You feel them. And one thing that we see a lot after we take people through Dare to Lead and they talk about all the exercises is. And this is like, I would not say this is empirical, I would just say this is anecdotal. Is in my values very difficult, but in some way energy giving outside of my values, on the surface, easier, but absolutely depleting. Does that make sense to you? The paradox of this was easier to piss and moan about somebody than to talk to them, but left me feeling hollowed out versus I had to have a hard conversation. I had to practice it for two hours with my coach. I didn't sleep the night before, but when it was done, I had more energy. And I think that's about alignment.

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[Adam Grant]

It feels good to Geico. Okay, you ready for a lightning round?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

All right, who's at your dream dinner party, alive or dead?

[Brene Brown]

My mom, my grandmother, and my immediate family.

[Adam Grant]

Wow. Everyone always picks celebrities.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, don't give a shit. No.

[Adam Grant]

All right, Worst career advice you've ever gotten.

[Brene Brown]

I'm gonna talk about a subject we both hate. Executive presence. I don't like executive presence because I don't know what it means. The research feels unclear, and there are a lot of people in navy suits with red ties that command attention are saying jack shit or. Or worse. And there are a lot of really quiet people who don't look like a lot of the people in navy suits with red ties whose brilliance we all need. And so I texted you and I said, I'm getting ready to take on executive presence in this book. Should I do it or not? I got the three dots on the iPhone. And then what did you text back?

[Adam Grant]

I think I texted back something to the effect of yes. Can you do a smackdown of charisma, too? Because they're both cover for discriminating against women and introverts.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And I was like, let's go. As the only woman at the table for a long time early in my career, I have zero interest in looking, acting, behaving like the people who built the tables that I'm not supposed to be at. Yeah. None.

[Adam Grant]

What is something you've changed your mind about lately?

[Brene Brown]

I can get really ramped up about my founder energy and get really proud of it. Like, yeah, fuck you. I'm pick all the fonts, I'm going to check all the emails, and then I'm going to cry for six hours, get in a fight with my husband, and not get out of bed, because I'm going to check all the emails and pick all the fonts. And so I'm really changing my mind about where those lines exist.

[Adam Grant]

It sounds like you should read a book called the Gifts of Imperfection.

[Brene Brown]

And then I'm going to rethink our friendship.

[Adam Grant]

Ouch. No, I actually think it needs a sequel about delegation and micromanagement and control, which I think is an extension. Extension of perfectionism.

[Brene Brown]

It is. And the thing that I wrote myself, like, have you ever written anything? And then you're like, eat the page yourself, dumbass. Like, tear this page out and just eat the page you wrote?

[Adam Grant]

No, I've never thought about it that way. But in tech, they call it eating your own dog food. Right.

[Brene Brown]

Is that. I don't know.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, you have to use the program that you coded and then see if it is.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, got it.

[Adam Grant]

Okay.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, that productive challenge is a function of trust. Micromanagement is a function of distrust. And I'm rethinking where I'm being productive in my challenging with my team and where I'm not trusting. And what I'm learning is I'm not trusting because I am not doing a good job. Painfully pulling the context that people need to do their jobs out of my brain because it's really exhausting for me. I have a thousand things in my brain about right now, tomorrow, five years, three years. Like, I have all this, like, crazy stuff in my brain as a founder, and then I don't share the context of it. You know, I should eat a chapter, because there's a whole chapter called mission critical question mark. And the answer is mission clarity. And that means everybody on your team, in your organization should be able to draw a straight line from what they're doing to the larger context in the organization they can't see every day. And that's time and discipline.

[Adam Grant]

It also sounds like, I mean, this is a classic founder challenge. Right. You're blurring the line between founder and owner.

[Brene Brown]

Say more.

[Adam Grant]

Just because you're a founder doesn't mean you have to own everything.

[Brene Brown]

It's not even computing.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, you can create something and then just hand it off to other people. Right.

[Brene Brown]

I need my team and the audience to break eye contact. Yes, I can do that. Yes, I do do that. Yes, I have very capable people. I am not good in fear, and I'm not a good public person. I never wanted to be a public person. And so I can get very fearful and scarcity based. Yeah. And then I'm not good in those places.

[Adam Grant]

Welcome to club.

[Geico Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

All right. If you were dropped back to your freshman year of college with all the knowledge and wisdom you've accumulated since then, what would be the first thing you would change?

[Brene Brown]

I would just tell myself that there's no shame in this traditional path not being my path because I graduated with my undergrad at 29. You know, I got kicked out of school three times. I hitchhiked, I bartended, I did a lot of things where I learned way more about empathy than studying it. And I think I would just look back and say, nothing wasted.

[Adam Grant]

Wow. More, how do you balance Setting boundaries versus always being there for a friend or even someone who takes advantage of your kindness.

[Brene Brown]

I think there's two different groups of people because I don't think friends take advantage of our kindness. And I think you really have to start with some self examination. But I think for a long time I thought the only value I brought to relationships was the problem solver, the fixer, the taking care of things. I'm the oldest daughter of four. I have all that set up. And so I think it starts with, it's really good. Despite what a lot of weird people are saying right now, it's really good to be an empathetic person. One make sure that that's cognitive empathy, not affective empathy, meaning you don't want to feel what everyone feels. That's a recipe for disaster and burnout. And it's also the word that I would call it as someone. I've been sober for 28 years, we would call it enmeshment. This is not empathy because I don't know where I end and you begin. So I would really do a lot of self reflecting around a relationship. A good friendship, love, friendship, whatever, is reciprocal. And if you primarily play a role where you're caregiving and taking care of folks, then that's not about the people you're hanging out with. That's hanging out with yourself a little bit and figuring out that's not the only value you bring.

[Adam Grant]

All right, I have some more audience questions for you.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, let's do it.

[Adam Grant]

This one I'm going to edit a little bit. The question says the concept of vulnerability has become increasingly popular in the business world. I will say, because of you, Brene, you have popularized vulnerability. And the question is, do you find that there's an evolving meaning of it? Has it changed since you gave your first TED Talk?

[Brene Brown]

I don't. Look, just because the concept is more popular doesn't mean the behavior is more popular. Let's start there. Everybody's afraid. We're all afraid all the time. And fear can be a helpful thing, right? What gets in the way of courage is armor. How do we self protect when we're in fear? What do we turn to? What armor do we put on? I've already said, for me, micromanaging perfectionism, I get overly decisive. No, close that down. Shut that. Move her over here. No, hire him. And then I'm like, oh, shit, I think I'm scared. And then I'm like, let's not do those things. And my team's like, we don't write anything down when you're like this. And you can get good performance using fear and shitty behavior for a very short amount of time. But then fear has a very short shelf life because our nervous systems can't handle it for a long period of time. Right? So to me, vulnerability hasn't changed. There are more people talking about it, growing people, a growing number of people working at it, and an increased number of people giving it lip service because it has some popularity which takes five seconds to see through. Like I see dead people. Like I see your fake vulnerability.

[Adam Grant]

Renee, thank you. It's always a joy to learn from you.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, thank y'. All. Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manibong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown.

[Brene Brown]

All right, y', all, thanks for listening again. We are on break and we are giving you some of our favorite podcasts and conversations that you've not heard yet. And we'll be back on July 30th with brand new episodes. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

[Adam Grant]

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more award winning [e-mail] this show

[Geico Sponsor]

is brought to you by Geico. Trust is foundational. It's at the heart of every relationship, every decision and every leap worth taking. And it's something you build over time through everyday consistency. Follow through and care. Geico gets that. It's why they've spent decades showing up for their customers again and again with real savings and genuinely great customer service from people who truly care. Trust is everything and it feels good to have it.

[Adam Grant]

It feels good to Geico.