Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership

Summary

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown & Adam Grant

Episode Title: Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership
Date: April 2, 2026
Recorded Live: SXSW, March 15th, Austin, Texas
Podcast Network: Vox Media

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Overview

In this dynamic, live episode, Brené Brown and Adam Grant inaugurate their new podcast, "The Curiosity Shop," by unraveling one of the most critical topics in contemporary leadership: the dangers of narcissistic leaders and how organizational cultures become vulnerable to them. Bringing together qualitative (Brown) and quantitative (Grant) expertise, they discuss the psychological, relational, and systemic elements that allow narcissism to flourish in power and the deep costs it exacts on trust, accountability, and collaboration. The conversation weaves research, stories, laughter, and candid personal reflections, giving listeners a profound and practical exploration of leadership, vulnerability, ambition, and organizational health.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Are We Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders?

[02:34-04:07]

• Brown: Proposes that people are often drawn to narcissistic leaders, especially in times of uncertainty, because their self-assured traits first seem comforting—though these traits can quickly become catastrophic.
• Grant: Highlights the myth of Narcissus, connecting the ancient cautionary tale to today's executive suites and politics.
• Brown: Clarifies they are not pathologizing individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but discussing patterns of narcissistic leadership.

Notable Quote
"Through a vulnerability lens, I think narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary."
— Brené Brown [05:37]

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2. Defining Narcissistic Leadership: Ego vs. Mission

[07:01-11:19]

• Grant: Expands Brown’s idea—it's not just the fear of being ordinary, but of appearing ordinary. Narcissists crave validation and a sense of superiority.
• Brown: Explores the relational patterns, referencing research that narcissistic leadership erodes trust by making incentives and structures self-serving rather than purpose-driven.

Notable Quote
"...narcissists do not suffer from low self-esteem. They suffer from high but unstable self-esteem. They have an inflated view of how great they are, but it's fragile."
— Adam Grant [08:13]

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3. Organizational Impact: Trust, Accountability, and Culture

[10:06-11:19]

• Grant's Research: Narcissistic leaders produce three main problems:
  • Ego trumps mission, shifting employees’ focus to pleasing the boss.
  • Cutthroat, corner-cutting cultures become normalized.
  • Collaboration and trust are undermined.
• Brown: Notes shame as a "primal" emotion leading to poor decisions, referencing shame research (Hartling, Stone Center).

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4. Cultures of Shame & Emotional Dynamics

[12:34-16:00]

• Deep dive into shame: Brown explains its evolutionary roots and complexity across cultures and languages.
• Grant: Shares research on how shame might work differently in collectivist cultures, yet both agree the long-term cost of shame-based cultures is high.

Notable Quote
"Shame is a form of social control. I don't think anyone argues about its short-term efficacy… The long-term result… is a very different story."
— Brené Brown [15:24]

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5. Emotions as Teachable Moments

[18:17-21:56]

• Grant: Posits that negative emotions like regret, guilt, or embarrassment aren't just for immediate action but serve as tools to anticipate and improve future decisions.
• Brown: Affirms regret is "a tough but fair teacher," blending empathy, pattern recognition, and learning.

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6. Credit, Blame, and Self-Promotion

[21:59-24:39]

• Brown: Research links narcissistic leadership to taking undue credit.
• Grant: Shares NBA team studies—high-narcissism teams stagnate because credit hogging undermines collaboration, especially when narcissists hold key roles.

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7. Dealing with Narcissistic Bosses — Practical Guidance

[25:26-32:24]

• Brown: Offers hard-won advice: when working with leaders, looks for those who "want to win more than they want to be right." Encourages documentation, playbacks (written confirmation of directives), and mentorship if one must endure narcissistic environments. Recommends always having a plan B.
• Grant: Recalls having a narcissistic boss who used threats and emotional manipulation. Found relief by forging small talk connections, but ultimately developed a resolve never to work for such power structures again.

Notable Quote
"The closer you are away from what power looks like in your organization in terms of gender and race and ethnicity and age, the heavier that load is to pick up and to have to carry around."
— Brené Brown [35:29]

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8. Systems That Reward Narcissism: Contextual Amplifiers

[36:41-39:22]

• Discusses how environments marked by uncertainty, exhaustion, and especially cultures that reward spectacle and self-promotion create fertile ground for narcissistic leadership.
• Brown: Urges leaders to reject “grind” as a long-term high, prioritizing stability and predictability instead.

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9. Ambition vs. Narcissism: Where’s the Line?

[39:34-43:26]

• Differentiates between healthy ambition, self-involvement (e.g., due to anxiety), and narcissism (both grandiose and vulnerable types).
• Grant: Explains "vulnerable narcissism" as anxiety-driven, while "grandiose narcissism" is ego-driven; both, however, are self-protective and can be harmful.
• Brown: Shares family stories to illustrate how “not enough” and “better than” are both sides of the same self-protection coin.

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10. Judgment, Confirmation Bias, and Navigating Power

[48:38-55:52]

• Lively debate: Brown challenges Grant's assertion that "judging impairs judgment." She admits strong suspicious reactions to influential people, more as a matter of self-protection than bias.
• Both explore how gender, emotional labor, and the expectations of leaders create added burdens—especially for women and those further from power.
• Brown: Describes the emotional costs of being in proximity to power and the importance of drawing boundaries for personal wellbeing.

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11. Opting Out vs. Showing Up

[58:55-62:41]

• Grant argues for the importance of having non-transactional, mission-driven voices (like Brown's) in rooms of power—even if uncomfortable. Brown underscores the steep personal cost and her choice to maintain boundaries, though she acknowledges her influence.
• Both reflect on contributing to a world where access and public attention can be transactional and dehumanizing—and the necessity for compassion and curiosity.

Notable Moment
"Where is the moral compass if you opt out and only the transactional people show up and they run the world? That scares the hell out of me."
— Adam Grant [59:39]

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12. Reflections on Leadership, Humanity, and Podcast Mission

[62:41-63:59]

• The hosts reiterate their commitment to "slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity"—inviting listeners on a journey of curiosity over certainty, humility over ego, and informed debate over easy answers.

Memorable Closing
"We don't always agree. But I think that's okay, right? People need to be able to get along and not agree, potentially. But I'm grateful for you."
— Brené Brown [63:25]
"The gratitude is mutual. I'm not gonna make a cheesy heart symbol. I like you. I really do."
— Adam Grant [63:33]

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Notable Quotes (with Attribution & Timestamps)

• Brené Brown [05:37]: "Through a vulnerability lens, I think narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary."
• Adam Grant [08:13]: "Narcissists do not suffer from low self-esteem. They suffer from high but unstable self-esteem."
• Adam Grant [10:06]: "Narcissistic leadership seems to have three predictable consequences: ego above mission; encouragement of cutthroat culture; undermined collaboration."
• Brené Brown [15:24]: "Shame is a form of social control..."
• Adam Grant [24:03]: "When I look at myself in the mirror, all I see staring back is greatness." (Sharing an NBA player's tweet as an example of narcissism.)
• Brené Brown [35:29]: "The closer you are away from what power looks like... the heavier that load is to pick up and... carry around."
• Adam Grant [59:39]: "Where is the moral compass if you opt out and only the transactional people show up and they run the world? That scares the hell out of me."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment Description | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------|-----------| | Why we follow narcissistic leaders | 02:34 | | Brown on “shame-based fear of being ordinary”| 05:37 | | Narcissists' fragile egos—Grant explains | 08:13 | | Organizational trust and narcissism | 10:06 | | Shame: cultural and neurobiological context | 12:34 | | Emotions as teachers, not drivers | 18:17 | | Narcissists taking credit in teams | 21:59 | | Dealing with narcissistic bosses | 25:26 | | Cultures rewarding spectacle/self-promotion | 36:41 | | Differentiating ambition vs. narcissism | 39:34 | | Judgment: confirmation and desirability bias| 48:38 | | Opting out vs. showing up in “power rooms” | 58:55 | | Leadership, boundaries, and closing | 62:41 |

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Tone, Language & Style

The conversation is warm, intelligent, humorous, and deeply human. Brown brings vulnerability, storytelling, and heartfelt clarity, while Grant injects sharp data-driven insights and playful banter. Both thrive in pushing each other's thinking and maintaining a genuine, conversational style that is equal parts rigorous and relatable.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Narcissistic leadership is not just a personality issue—it’s a systemic, cultural, and relational challenge that organizations must actively counter through shared mission, psychological safety, and humility.
• Documentation, mentorship, and a plan B are practical tactics for individuals stuck under narcissistic leadership.
• Self-protection and emotional boundaries are necessary—especially for those further from organizational power.
• Societies and workplaces need more voices focused on mission and community than on self-promotion and spectacle.
• Disagreement, curiosity, and human connection are central to leadership, growth, and modern discourse.

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For those who missed the episode, this summary offers a robust guide to its essential ideas, arguments, and energy. For the full, lived experience—including laughter, candor, and memorable stories—listen to the recording.

Transcript

[Brené Brown]

Support for this show comes from Canva. What's your next big thing? Whatever it is, you can design it with Canva. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos all the way to websites, whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.

[Adam Grant]

Learn [e-mail] Support for this show comes from SASS. It's time to have an honest talk about AI. Not about whether it will replace us, but but about how it's becoming easier and easier to outsource our thinking to systems that people just won't understand. Thankfully, SAS has been in data and AI for 50 years and they believe in a pretty simple idea. AI should be explainable, well governed and worthy of Trust. Visit sas.com to see how AI should be built for high stakes decisions where the cost of getting it wrong is real and human accountability isn't optional. Learn [e-mail] that's sas.com support for the

[Brené Brown]

show comes from Hostinger. The landscape for entrepreneurs everywhere is changing. AI has altered the barrier to entry, making it possible to build something from the ground up, starting in just a few minutes rather than a few weeks.

[Adam Grant]

Go to hostinger.com c shop. That's the letter C. And then shop to bring your idea online for under $3 a month. Plus get an extra 20% off with promo code C. SHOP. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. That's hostinger.com C shop. Promo code C shop for an extra 20% off.

[Brené Brown]

Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show

[Adam Grant]

from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

[Brené Brown]

This episode was filmed live in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest on March 15th. Let's jump in. How's it going? Okay. Y' all want to hear something fun? This is not really a talk.

[Adam Grant]

See, you all are going to be really disappointed.

[Brené Brown]

This isn't really a talk. We're actually officially announcing a new podcast right now. Yes.

[Adam Grant]

Can't believe we're doing a podcast together.

[Brené Brown]

I know, it's crazy. Hashtag same. I'm excited.

[Adam Grant]

The excitement is mutual, but I feel like it's a little unfair because we're on your home court here in Texas.

[Brené Brown]

Let's go. Where are my Longhorns? Let's go.

[Adam Grant]

Not to get competitive.

[Brené Brown]

No, just to win. Okay, we have an interesting conversation for you today. We're gonna talk about why we are so vulnerable to narcissistic leaders.

[Adam Grant]

Wait, we? We? I don't follow narcissists. Do you?

[Brené Brown]

No, but I think the collective we, like, I think people in general, we can be somewhat vulnerable to it because it. When we're scared and uncertain, the traits that ladder up to. To that type of leadership can at first blush seem comforting before they turn into catastrophic. But they can seem, I think, at first blush. So you wrote an op ed. Tell us about your op ed. I thought it was really interesting.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, well, thank you. I have to think through whether I agree with everything I wrote in or not. But the place I started was I was thinking about Greek mythology, and we all know the myth of Narcissus, who falls in love with his own image and then he withers away. And I was just struck by the fact that that was what happened in ancient Greece. But in modern America, he ends up and he sort of lands in the corner office and maybe occasionally even in

[Brené Brown]

the Oval Office every now and then.

[Adam Grant]

And there's something wrong with that picture and I wanted to try to understand it. And you have been studying this your whole career?

[Brené Brown]

Well, I haven't. Well, one thing I want to say, and this is really important for folks watching or listening and for those of you in the room, I'm a social worker, and this is where it gets really important to say this out loud. I'm a social worker. Adam's a psychologist. We are not talking about diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. We're talking about patterns that we've observed in. In leadership that share some things in common that very much align with some of the traits that we can see in narcissism. So I want to be really careful about that because we're not talking. We're not. Neither one of us are clinicians. So we're not talking about the clinical disorder. We're talking about a pattern of leadership. When we started throwing around the word, oh, she's such a narcissist, he's a narcissist. Every podcast was, you know, were you raised by, you know, a narcissist? And it made me nuts because when I looked at it through the lens of vulnerability and what I study, what I saw or what I still see is those traits are what I would say are the shame based fear of being ordinary. So say it again. I like that.

[Adam Grant]

Someone's taking my job here. Thank you for that.

[Brené Brown]

You can come back.

[Adam Grant]

Can you say that again?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

That was a really insightful observation and I want to hear it twice. So it lands.

[Brené Brown]

We're taking you everywhere. We go out there through a vulnerability lens. I think narcissism is the shame based fear of being ordinary. And what's interesting and scary about that, that I want to get into with you is an actually psychoanalytic person clinical work. There's a thing called when they write and people theorize around narcissism, the terror of ordinariness, a sheer terror of being ordinary. How does that fit? Just for those of you who don't know our work well, we spend 90% of our time in organizations working with C suites and senior leaders. So we see a lot of firsthand kind of leadership trait. So how does that fear of being ordinary fit for what you see?

[Adam Grant]

Well, first of all, Berne, everyone knows your work well, so.

[Brené Brown]

Well, that's not true.

[Adam Grant]

No, no explainer needed. But to, to, to weigh in on your question, I think you know, when you were, when you were talking about the shame based fear of being ordinary, I, I would say also of appearing ordinary because it's, it's image, not just ego. And Wait, wait.

[Brené Brown]

It's not just the fear of being ordinary, it's the fear of appearing ordinary because it's not just ego, which is the fear of being ordinary, it's image.

[Adam Grant]

I don't want other people to think that I'm not sexual.

[Brené Brown]

Okay. Yeah, that's huge.

[Adam Grant]

I'm gonna miss their validation then. And I'm gonna miss out on the sense of superiority that I want, that I seek through claiming power and seizing status. So when you describe that, I start thinking about a whole body research in psychology on narcissism as part of the heart of bullying. And I think everybody. How many people were bullied in the audience growing up?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, no one cheers for that, by the way. No, you ask other questions. People are like, woo, yeah, me. How many people are bullied? It gets really quiet. Eh, I guess I was, I was. And I remember my mom saying, you know, they just feel bad about themselves and they're trying to feel better about themselves by putting you down. And I got to college, I started studying psychology, I dove into some of the research on that and I'm sorry, mom, but you were wrong. It turns out that narcissists do not suffer from low self esteem. They suffer from high but unstable self esteem. They have an inflated view of how great they are, but it's fragile. It's like a balloon that could puncture at any slight. And I think that seems really, that seems so complementary to the shame based fear of being ordinary is like I have this desire to see myself as great and important and unique, but maybe I know deep down that I'm not. And I'm extra sensitive to any signal that calls into question that fragile view of myself. Discuss, please.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, I'm taking aback because I don't know what mental picture you have in your head. I have several political pictures in my head. I have a full on frickin Mount Rushmore of narcissistic leadership in my head. One thing I would say is I wrote this note in preparing for today. While clinicians might ask, does this meet the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder? I think you and I check this out. Yes or no. You and I are saying, does this pattern of leadership reliably corrode trust, accountability and shared reality inside of a system? Like that's what we're looking for in the leadership world. Right? So here are the things I was thinking I wanted to ask you about. So when I think about the leaders that I've worked with or the leadership I've seen, when I think about this kind of narcissistic trait, the first thing I think about is structural impact, trust erosion. The things, the kind of, the structures that we can depend on are broken down even purposefully. And then there's really weird incentives. Like the incentives change from goodness to like egomaniacal incentives. What do you see? Like what does the research say or what do you see when you write about it?

[Adam Grant]

I think that that aligns pretty well with the evidence I've read. So narcissistic leadership seems to have, seems to have three predictable consequences. One is that leaders put their ego above the mission. And that means people redirect their effort away from how do I contribute productively and effectively and toward what is gonna please the boss. So you see a lot of brown nosing, a lot of kissing up, also a lot of backstabbing of people who might threaten my standing with the boss. And I think that goes to the second pattern, which is narcissists encourage cutthroat cultures. O'Reilly and Chapman, among others who've studied this and what they show is basically that narcissists want to do whatever they can to feel special. And that includes cutting corners. And they end up normalizing that behavior at lower levels of the organization. And then the third piece is they end up really undermining collaboration and cooperation. And I think that's the trust piece you were talking about for sure. And it's, you know, it's not to say that there aren't times when narcissists succeed, but I think that they often succeed in spite of their self love and egos. Not because of it?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, because when I think about the shame based fear, how many of us are good in shame? Like zero. I'm thinking about Hartling, Linda Hartling's research on. And the Stone center at Wellesley did this incredible research on shame and that how we defend against it, we move toward. By people pleasing, we move against, by using shame and violence to combat shame. Like we don't make good choices when we're in shame, you know, and so that comes to this relational patterns.

[Adam Grant]

Can I say a question about that? I've always wondered. There's a paper that Rick Bogosi published a while back looking at cross cultural differences in reaction to shame. And the finding that always stuck out at me was that in the Philippines, salespeople performed better after they felt shame. And he was suggesting that, if I remember correctly, in a collectivistic culture, that people were able to harness shame to repair as opposed to fight or flight. And that never sat right with me. And I wondered if you could explain it or help me make sense of it. Can we ever derive benefits from shame?

[Brené Brown]

So from an evolutionary biological perspective, shame worked when you were a danger to a collective society, when you kept making a mistake that put us in danger, we would just shun or shame you until basically you died because you depended on the community to live right. Today, it's just too far blunt of an instrument to work because shame is the threat or belief that we're unlovable and unworthy of connection with other people, unworthy of belonging. And it moves us into some very. How many of you, let me just like a show of hands, how many of you are parents? How many of you had some of your worst parenting moments when you were in your own shame and you just responded, you acted out, you know, it's like we're not good from that place because one thing is we're not. When shame happens, it's such a primitive emotion that it hijacks the limbic system. And it's not like we're in the prefrontal cortex where we can think through, rationalize and regulate. We are in fight, flight and parasympathetically freeze. So the cross culture studies on shame are so important, and I don't envy any researcher taking that on for a very interesting reason. English is the only language that we know of in the world where there's a singular word for shame.

[Adam Grant]

Really?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Because if you go into French or you go into Span, you go into any other language, there are multiple words that are very nuanced. And I'll tell You why? We were. How many of you are Spanish speaking in here or speak Spanish? So when we were translating the curriculum, it took two years because it was an ongoing. We had native Spanish speakers from four different countries working on the translation. And they could not agree. First they said they couldn't agree. They were like, yeah, no, they're like, it's picado. It's the word for sin. They're like, no, no, no. But it ended up being berguensa, which we use for embarrassment because the context is different. So like, if I fall over and I'm oh, then go beruinsa. Like I'm embarrassed. But if I walk down the stairs and my mom or grandmother look at me and go. Because I have on a short skirt, that goes right into the shame category. Right. And so I think cross cultural studies of shame are difficult because the language is very hard.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, light bulb moment.

[Brené Brown]

Okay, great.

[Adam Grant]

So as you're describing the evolutionary perspective, I just realized what never landed for me before in that study, which is, if I remember correctly, they were studying anticipated shame. And that was where they found a function that worrying that you were going to be unlikable or unlovable with your colleagues was enough to prevent you from making a big mistake. I can see that being more adaptive.

[Brené Brown]

Well, that's different. But. But anybody raised in a faith community that used that to keep people in line would tell you that that does not work so well. That ends up with a lot of like God scars or whatever kind of scars you. I mean, like, that is. Shame is a form of social control. I don't think anyone argues about its short term efficacy in a sales call room, which is the research here. I'm familiar with the research. The long term result of that is a very different story.

[Adam Grant]

So it's like fear in that way.

[Brené Brown]

It's like fear in that way. You can shame me into following cultural or community norms, but the impact of that is lifelong. Support for this show comes from Canva. An idea is just an idea, but actually transforming that idea into a thing, that's where the real work lives. It can be a journey full of pitfalls and banging your head against the wall, or it could be a lot easier than that with Canva. Canva is packed with templates and design tools to turn your idea into something real. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, logos and websites. Whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.

[Adam Grant]

Learn [e-mail] Support for this show comes from SAS. SAS has been in data and AI for 50 years, and they believe in a pretty simple idea. AI should be explainable, transparent, and well governed, because that's the only way it can earn your trust. From banks and boardrooms to hospitals in the halls of government, AI systems now inform decisions that affect millions of people every day. That's why SAS's core commitment to responsible innovation is more important than ever. So that every could we is followed by a should we? And leads to a here's how it works. If that kind of clarity appeals to you, visit sas.com to see how SAS applies their simple guiding principles to a complex AI landscape where hard questions require reliable answers. Learn [e-mail], that's sas.com support for the

[Brené Brown]

show comes from Hostinger. The landscape for entrepreneurs everywhere is changing. AI has altered the barrier to entry, making it possible to build something from the ground up, starting in just a few minutes rather than a few weeks. And you could do that with help from Hostinger. Hostinger is an all in one platform that brings everything into one place. Your domain, your website, email marketing, AI tools, and AI agents. Start with a prompt, then add your personal touch. You can create websites, online stores and custom apps without coding or design skills. Then you can use AI agents to automate tedious tasks and grow your business. Hostinger powers over 10 million websites, and there's a reason it's earned a CNET and Editor's Choice award.

[Adam Grant]

Turn your one day into day one. Go to hostinger.com C shop that's the letter C S, H O P to bring your idea online for under $3 a month. Plus get an extra 20% off with promo code C shop. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. That's hostinger.com cshop promo code c shop for an extra 20% off. Okay, before we go back to narcissism, this is the Curiosity Shop, so I'm allowed to explore any curiosity I have. Okay, so I read this paper years ago that argued that we think about emotions. Wrong. And it's exactly on this point. I think most of us assume that emotions are supposed to drive behavior, right? So I feel guilt, I repair, I feel gratitude, I show appreciation. The argument was that most emotions don't actually exist to drive action. They exist so that we can learn the consequences of our action and then anticipate what we need to do differently next time. And I think this was especially for negative emotions. So the thought was regret isn't supposed to change your behavior. Today, it's supposed to teach you about the systematic mistake you're making in your decisions. So you're going to learn to avoid that the next five times you're in a similar situation. And it really shifted my thinking a little bit and led me to wonder if most of the way that we deal with emotion in terms of processing, what does this mean for what I do today is actually shortsighted and if we should be asking more of, okay, emotions are teachable moments. Is regret a masterclass in making better decisions? Is guilt a whole tutorial in learning how to right wrongs or avoid committing them in the first place? Is embarrassment a cue that I need to be a little bit more attuned to how other people perceive me? And I'd just be so curious to hear your take on. Are emotions anticipatory tools as opposed to immediate action causes? I know you're gonna say they're both. They're both, damn it.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think that, you know, I think it was an atlas of the heart. Dan Pink and I align on regret as a very useful emotion. I think regret is. You know, I always think about what was the movie with Jennifer Aniston and Jason Sudeikis. We are the Millers. Yeah. And the daughter brings home this guy, and he's got a tattoo, and it says no regrets, and it's misspelled. And Jason Sudeikis is like, no regrets. He's like, no, sir. And he's like, not one. He goes, no, sir. And Jason Sudeikis goes, not even a single letter. And so I don't. I always write that. I think regret is a tough but fair teacher.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So I do think in some ways it's retrospective about. I mean, I think regret's a function of empathy for me. Often it's like, wow, I'm going to another quote. I think it was George Saunders that gave the commencement dress that said the things he regretted most in his life were failures of kindness. And so I think they can be retrospective. I think they can be predictive in a way. I always tell you I have a spidey sense. That's probably a psychology person would probably say strong pattern recognition, intuition. But I think they can be reflective, predictive, and just also in the moment.

[Adam Grant]

I like it. Okay, take us back to narcissism.

[Brené Brown]

Okay, what about this? This is like how narcissism or traits of that can affect relationships. I was very freaked out when I read this in the research. Taking undue credit is related to narcissistic leadership. Patterns. Do you think that's true?

[Adam Grant]

Okay. So when I was studying givers and takers, I was confronted with the question of, okay, we all would prefer to be surrounded by generous than selfish people, but there must be some value of the selfish people, otherwise they wouldn't exist. And so I started combing through the research to try to figure out, okay, what do givers take and what its takers give? And the only thing that I could find out of that was givers really love to give credit and take responsibility. And takers are really good at taking credit, but they also give something. Blame

[Brené Brown]

the takers. The givers?

[Adam Grant]

No, I mean, I think that a huge part of narcissism is credit hogging, or it's a major consequence of narcissism anyway, because it's part of how you show that you're not ordinary. I think the NBA data on this are so striking. There's a study where Emily Grijalva and colleagues, they actually code NBA basketball players tweets on a narcissism scale. And I realize this may be a world in which the base rate of narcissism is somewhat higher than the average in the population at large, but you can still see variations. Right. There are some players who tweet and say things like, you know, tough game yesterday. I really let the team down. And others who. This was an actual quote, who post a shirtless photo of themselves that says under it with a caption, When I look at myself in the mirror, all I see staring back is greatness.

[Brené Brown]

Me too.

[Adam Grant]

So, I mean, there's the credit taking, right? The question is, what does that mean for the team? Well, the higher the average narcissism level on your team, the more stagnant your team's performance is over the course of the season. Because narcissists are hogging the ball, they're hogging the glory, they're taking the credit, they undermine collaboration, as we were talking about earlier. And that is especially true if the point guard is a narcissist. Having a self centered person move the ball up the court and control the offense is deadly to a team's ability to become more than the sum of their parts. And I think the credit taking dynamic is probably part of that.

[Brené Brown]

Damn. I know how I'm going to be thinking about the Final Four. Okay. All right.

[Adam Grant]

Wait, no, no. I have a question for you on this. So have you. I mean, it's really easy to see these patterns from a distance. It's hard to deal with these patterns when you confront them on A daily basis. You spend a lot of time coming into organizations and trying to cure them of.

[Brené Brown]

I don't know if I cure them,

[Adam Grant]

but trying to heal them, trying to improve the way that they work together. And maybe, maybe, I don't want to say squash egos, but maybe lower the ego or quiet the ego a little bit of leadership. How do you think about dealing with a narcissist when you see these tendencies?

[Brené Brown]

You know, I'm hesitant to say the truth.

[Adam Grant]

Always a good place to start. Yeah, like what I'm about to say is not going to be 100% candid, but bear with me.

[Brené Brown]

No, I'm going to say. Yeah, no, what I'm going to say is when I say that I'm saying I'm going to say 100% the truth and it could get me in a shit ton of trouble. That's usually what I mean. You know, when we go in and do Dare to Lead work, we say yes to those kind of embedded interventions where I'm in there doing work with leaders about 30% of the time. The others are 70% or no. And the first thing I. And we go through very rigorous assessments where I interview people in the C suite, I interview senior leaders, and I interview people with the least power and proximity to power. And so the thing that I'm looking for, and it's probably a little bit of like creaming the crop for the intervention. It is definitely creaming the crop for the intervention. Let me just be straight. That I am looking for in the C suite, specifically leaders who want to win more than they want to be right. So if I'm working with a CEO or senior leaders who care more about winning and doing what's right for the organization than they do protecting his self image, then I'm all in. And in fact, I just did an interview with the Wall Street Journal when I was with Kate Johnson at Lumen and we've been together, working together for maybe three years. And the Wall Street Journal guy said, to what do you attribute some of this transformative success? And I just looked at Kate and said she wanted to win more than she wanted to be right. And you know, and he said, what does that look like? And I said, showing up at everything we did, leading the way, modeling vulnerability, modeling empathy, modeling rethinking, modeling learning and unlearning when it was super uncomfortable, when she knew it could come up on an investor call, like really just saying, I care more about getting it right than I do about being right.

[Adam Grant]

And I can't think of a better way to demonstrate mission over ego than that.

[Brené Brown]

The mission over ego thing is so interesting. It takes me immediately to an experience I had. Have you ever done work with St. Jude's no. About 10 years ago, I went to go do work with St. Jude's and I was gonna meet with the leaders, and they said, do you wanna get here an hour early to get a tour of the hospital? And I said, oh, I'd love it. And so I got there, and I got on the elevator to go to the second floor where I was meeting the docent who was gonna give me the interview. And when I stepped on the elevator, the only other person on the elevator was a woman and in her kind of mid-60s, and she was pushing a cart of desserts. And I said, you know, hi, how you doing? She goes, good. And I said, what do you do at St. Jude's and she said, I cure cancer. And I said, I'm sorry. And she said, I cure cancer. Families, patients, physicians, nurses, staff. Don't eat. We can't cure cancer. Yeah. She said, I cure cancer. I. I got up to this, and I was like, hell, yeah, you do. I was like, right, that makes sense. I get up to the second floor and I meet the docent, and we're just starting to walk on the tour. And I said, how long have you been volunteering for St. Jude's and she said, God, I think I've been curing cancer for about 18 months. And it made me realize that. That is a culture that. Where the oncologists are not taking credit for curing cancer, that everyone is taking credit and everyone is sharing credit. And that takes a very special kind of deep humility and curiosity in leadership.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

That, I would say, is the opposite of narcissistic leader trends.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. So when you confront the opposite.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

What do you do?

[Brené Brown]

You know. You know exactly what I do. I dig in and figure out how it got there, who brought it in, how do they build it, how do they operationalize it, how do they. I'm curious about. You can have. I've met singular leaders that are driven by courage and humility that cannot scale that across their organization. They can't even get it in their own teams. So when I see that, I'm curious about where that started and how it was built and how it's operationalized every day at every level.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. So if I'm your boss. Because one thing that's really striking to me is when we go into organizations, we have very little to lose because we're outsiders, we're sort of brought in to hold up a mirror. And worst case scenario, people say, we don't like the reflection, go home.

[Brené Brown]

I get that a lot.

[Adam Grant]

But I imagine there are a lot of people with us today who might have to deal with a narcissistic colleague or a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic senior executive. And I guess the question is, what do you say to that person? How do you manage that dynamic when you're not in a position of freedom or power?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, because I have a lot of walk away stuff and so power. I personally think that it's really important to have a mentor and someone in the organization that you trust that knows that person that has more proximity to power that can kind of be a good mentor for you. But I also think those relationships are normally abusive and you should have a plan B. Yeah, there have been many times where I couldn't walk out of a job because I needed to pay my rent, keep my insurance for my kids. And so when people said, well, you should just leave, then they're all like, okay, but I think you should start developing a plan B. I think those behaviors are very hard to change. So what I would say is, you know, this is the old Union Stewart in me document. Use a playback as a tool. So like, let's say you're the boss and you say to me, I need you to do this, this and that. And then I would say, can I play back for you what you're wanting me to do? You need me to prioritize this. This is due on Wednesday and this is more important than this. Is that correct? And I would probably do the playback in writing. Hey, thanks for the time today. I just want to send an email real quick to play back what you're expecting from me. So that's another form of document, like, in God we trust everyone else bring data. So I think that's part of it. The other thing is I find engaging to be, especially if there's a power over situation. I find engaging with those folks to be somewhat dangerous. Like, I would not. I would try as much as I could not to engage. What about you?

[Adam Grant]

What about me?

[Brené Brown]

Well, what would you tell these folks?

[Adam Grant]

You know, I had a narcissistic boss early in my career, actually. And to your earlier point, not diagnosed with a personality disorder, just showing normal narcissism signs which, you know, involve like sort of airing your grievances. Like every day is festivus. If we have any Seinfeld fans in the room showing Lots of entitlement, believing that you deserve special treatment, lacking empathy for other people, and not ever owning the consequences of. Of your decisions. I had a boss like that, and a bunch of my colleagues were being mistreated, and I basically spent a whole summer afraid to speak up. And finally, I just. I couldn't. I couldn't take being such a coward anymore. And I walked into her office and I said, I think this is. You know, this is really unfortunate, the way that people are being forced to work overtime without paying, the way that their concerns are not being heard. And I'm really worried that we're going to lose them and we can't afford to. They're really valuable. And I got dragged by my ear down the hall into the women's restroom, which is the only room on our floor with no windows. And she said to me, if you ever speak up out of turn again, you'll be fired along with your co workers. And that was why I became an organizational psychologist.

[Brené Brown]

I did not know that.

[Adam Grant]

I do not ever want another person to have power over me again. Academic tenure sounds really safe right now. But one of the things I had to do then was I had to keep working with her. And I will tell you, the single most helpful thing that I did was having conversations with her that were not about work, where she was not interested, where she didn't have to prove that she was special and extraordinary. And I found out that she loves Survivor. And I was watching Survivor, and within a few weeks, I was on her good side again, just from talking about a TV show that was a common interest. And I think that got me through it. And I wrote down after I finished that job, I will never, ever work in a situation again where someone who believes that, where somebody who puts herself above the organization and above the team, has the power to ruin my day. Never again. So, yeah, so now I write books and talk and hope that other people can use these. These ideas.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, I just want to. I feel like this ethical obligation to pause us right now, like in the. You know, normally it'd just be you and me talking, but in the room, just to say that I want to. Like, first of all, I'm really sorry that happened.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, thank you.

[Brené Brown]

No, I am.

[Adam Grant]

I'm over it now.

[Brené Brown]

No, but I am sorry that happened because it represents something that I'm sure a lot of us have done. I also just want to acknowledge the fucking emotional labor of having to find what she likes that you can both talk about and having to, you know, like, I don't know if y' all are familiar with, like, the eggshell thing, like, walking on eggshells and how traumatic that is for those of us who grew up in houses where you had to kind of walk on eggshells sometimes because you couldn't predict erratic behavior. And then, like, having to talk, like, that's not free for people that have to do that. And, like, just to get very. And this is gonna be opinion, but, like, the closer you are away from what power looks like in your organization in terms of gender and race and ethnicity and age, the heavier that load is to pick up and to have to carry around. Like, that is not free. Like, if you. If you're like, good morning, Adam Grant. Here's your hundred dollars to spend for the day in cognitive lift and emotional lift. You could spend 70 of it if you were a generous employee on mission, but you would not have 70 of it to do that day if you're working. So you're gonna spend $68.50 or $68.99 trying to figure out what fun thing about Survivor you could talk to her about. And you're gonna have $1.01 left to spend at work. And the hard thing is that the spend that we make, it's not like we walk through the back door at the end of our office day. And then the bank account was like, ching, ching. $100 to find the goggles and the shin guards and to see what's for dinner. And your mom lost her meds, and no, you got 1450 left, folks. You know, and so it's like, that's why I would say have a plan B and document, because in the world Today, in the U.S. i would say we're looking at some of the consequences of this style of leadership, and people are dying. So I don't think these are easy behaviors to change. I'm looking at the things I listen. Taking undue credit, assigning undue blame, devaluing dissent. And then this is what I thought was interesting. In the research, they call them contextual amplifiers. So what is the environment in which this thrives? Right? Uncertainty, depletion, and exhaustion. This one freaked me out. Systems that reward spectacle and self promotion. Mm. It's like I'm in church. But the reason why I thought this was so huge is because as a leader in organization, like, I have a team in an organization. I can choose every day whether we build a culture that rewards spectacle. Like, what I'm trying to tell my people right now is we've been grinding really hard for the launch of the podcast. But what I'm trying to, like, build into my team is this should never be normalized. We should not take our endorphins from grind. We should take our joy at work from groundedness, predictability, and stability, not from grind. You know what I mean? Like, we will have to grind at times, but there's less glory in that than what we think. Do you know what I mean? What do you think?

[Adam Grant]

I'm having a hard time disagreeing with that, which is a little disappointing, given how often we are not on the same page. No, I think that's right. Sorry. What I should have said was, I agree, Brene.

[Brené Brown]

Well, good. I have a hard question for you.

[Adam Grant]

Uh. Oh, bring it.

[Brené Brown]

I was rereading the op Ed. It's in the New York Times. We'll link it in the show notes on the podcast.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, we're gonna have show notes?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

This is exciting.

[Brené Brown]

Paul.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, Paul's gonna do it.

[Brené Brown]

Paul's gonna do it. Where would you draw. And this is for my own personal interest. Where would you draw a line between man. This is a narcissistic pattern of leadership behaviors versus self involved or ambitious?

[Adam Grant]

Oh, that's a good question. That's a very good question. I think ambitious is easier to distinguish than self involved.

[Brené Brown]

God, me too. It's almost the outlier, right? Ambition. Okay, so let's take ambitious off. Let's take.

[Adam Grant]

Wait, you're taking. I was gonna. That was a.

[Brené Brown]

Go, go, go, go. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. The other two are more nuanced, don't you think? Like, those are really narcissistic trends versus these are. This person's just really self involved. That's different, I think.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so I think this is. It would be helpful maybe to get to the bottom of this by distinguishing between two flavors of narcissism, Grandiose and vulnerable. One of them is named after your work.

[Brené Brown]

I reject that claim, but go ahead.

[Adam Grant]

One of them is named in a way that will feel very familiar to you.

[Brené Brown]

Better.

[Adam Grant]

I think when I. Historically, when I've studied narcissistic leadership, I was thinking about the grandiose kind of the larger than life. I am the most important person in the room. It is all about me. That's the aspect of narcissism that Lyndon Johnson scored highest on when political scientists and historians rated the American presidents. It's sort of the Steve Jobs flavor as well. But we forget that there's a vulnerable variety as well, which is. It's more fear driven and Less ego driven of. To go back to your point at the beginning, it's not just I'm afraid of seeming ordinary. It's a fear of being worse than ordinary, of being inferior. And it seems, from my read of the research, vulnerable narcissists are extremely self involved. Extremely self involved. But they don't walk around thinking they're God's gift to humanity. They walk around thinking, oh no, oh no, everybody's judging me negatively and I've got to bend over backward to please them and curry favor with them and convince them that in fact I'm worthy. And I think that that is a way of being self involved that's different from kind of the grandiosity that we've been critiquing today.

[Brené Brown]

Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah. But I think as it's still narcissism, though, it still is malignant in my mind.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, it is. Okay, so let me try one other way to get at your question then, since you rejected that one just now. She was like, I saw it. You were. You're.

[Brené Brown]

No, no, I get it intellectually. I'm tracking research wise.

[Adam Grant]

So bad.

[Brené Brown]

Not. No, I would never put that label on it. I want more.

[Adam Grant]

You said malignant.

[Brené Brown]

No, I would say narcissism can still be malignant. Yeah. Vulnerable or grandiose.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so I think here's a. Here's maybe another. Another crack at it, which is there's a whole body of evidence on how people become self involved when they're anxious. So if you start to get stressed or nervous, you worry, you ruminate, your attention turns inward.

[Brené Brown]

That's true.

[Adam Grant]

And you need to self protect and that can be self involved, but it's not narcissistic at all. And in fact, you may be telling yourself a story that you're protecting other people through your anxiety and the concern that you're showing. And so I think you can get to self involvement through other paths than narcissism. And extreme anxiety might be one of them.

[Brené Brown]

Wow, okay, that's really interesting because I will say that when I am in peak eldest daughter anxiety. Aren't those memes rude? Instagram's calling me out every third scroll.

[Adam Grant]

But can I just point out there's no love for the eldest son ever. We never even get mentioned.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, but we get mentioned in the. My meme. My meme yesterday said, were you really a pleasure to have in class or were you the oldest war the eldest daughter with an undiagnosed anxiety disorder?

[Adam Grant]

I was like, fuck you, dude.

[Brené Brown]

I don't Even know you. I'm looking for shoes on here. Like, so

[Adam Grant]

I think we should take away your Instagram password.

[Brené Brown]

Yes, you should, if that's what you're being served.

[Adam Grant]

Go on.

[Brené Brown]

I am. And the next one was like, the oldest daughter could read a room before she could read a book. I'm like, okay, like, hyper vigilance has an upset. I always know what's going on next door. I can tell you if you need to know. I can keep us all safe. But I do think anxiety. I don't know, would you say, like, the vulnerable? I'm not familiar as familiar with those constructs and the differences, but it seems to me through my lens, they're ultimately both about self protection. Right. Ego protection, Whether it's because I'm not good enough or because I'm better than everyone else. But this is what I always say about that. When I was growing up, my Meemaw, my mom's mom, she lived in San Antonio. I would go stay at her house for a week and she would say, whatever you want to do, you can do. Like, we could do anything. And I was like, putt putt golf on Monday. We're going to see PG movies on Tuesday. Because I wasn't allowed to see a PG movie till I was 16. Yeah. She took me to what was the name of that? With Sally Fields and Burt Reynolds. The Race Car. Smokey and the Band. Smokey and the Bandit. Yeah. I mean, like, we did all the bad things. So she said, I'll take you anywhere. Brene just called me sissy. Actually, I'll take you anyway. Anywhere you want to go, Sissy. But not anywhere where I have to stand in one place for too long. And as a child, you didn't understand, like, how standing in one place could be worse than walking. But at my age, I get it now. I can't stand in one place for too long. But I often think about. People always used to ask me, so is the opposite of I'm not enough, I'm better than everyone. And I said, that's the pain of standing in the exact same place for too long. Like, I'm better than anyone and I'm not enough. Two sides of the exact same coin. It's judgment. It lacks complete self compassion. It lacks grace for yourself. So now I'm like, oh, that's why Meemaw's legs hurt when she stood in one place for too long. Like, we try to jump out of I'm not good enough, which is that vulnerable narcissism to I'm better than everyone else, which is the grandiosity. Same thing. It's a place of like, self protection and woundedness.

[Adam Grant]

There's basically been one guy in Republican politics who's argued for a regime change in Iran for years and for America to take a proactive military role in making it happen. Ambassador John Bolton, President Trump's former national security advisor. But now even Bolton says Donald Trump is messing it up.

[Brené Brown]

As far as we can tell, he did no preparation of the opposition actually inside Iran. No coordination, no effort to see what they would do, no effort to support them, to provide resources, money, arms, if that's what they wanted.

[Adam Grant]

Telecommunications.

[Brené Brown]

Just no coordination at all. And they don't seem prepared for it.

[Adam Grant]

How Trump lost the Republican Party's biggest Iran war. Hawk today explained every weekday and on Saturdays too. In 1984, Apple launched maybe the most consequential computer ever. It was not a good computer particularly. There was actually a lot wrong with it. But the Macintosh had all of the right ideas about what computers would become, and it kind of changed everything. This week on Version History, our chat show about the best and worst and most interesting products in tech history, we're telling the story of the Macintosh and why, again, despite not being very good, it managed to change everything. Anyway, that's version history on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts, I want to pick up on this. This theme of judgment, which I think is so interesting. I think that people, people are judgmental because they're trying to be discerning. And what they don't realize is that judging actually impairs judgment.

[Brené Brown]

Wait a minute, I'm going to disagree. Hold on. I feel it coming.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, good.

[Brené Brown]

Wait, no, wait. Judgment. Say that first.

[Adam Grant]

Judging impairs judgment. So let me explain what I mean by that.

[Brené Brown]

What do you mean?

[Adam Grant]

That. Okay, so the moment that I judge you, I am no longer capable of looking at you through an even close to neutral lens. Right. I've already predetermined what you're like. I have identified a list of flaws or shortcomings of yours. And at that point, I can't see you accurately. I can't see you clearly anymore. And so I've judged you instead of actually being an accurate judge of you.

[Brené Brown]

But what if I'm right?

[Adam Grant]

Then you are too invested in being right.

[Brené Brown]

I'm asking for a friend.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

What if my judgment is spot on?

[Adam Grant]

Well, we were texting about this, but we didn't talk about it.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, that's right, because you said, save it for the podcast. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. So, okay, so I Think that sometimes you have strong reactions.

[Brené Brown]

Oh shit. You mean this conversation?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Do you want to have this conversation? Sometimes you have strong reactions to people you've just met. Is that a fair statement? Especially if they're influential.

[Brené Brown]

I don't like fancy people. When I meet people that are either celebrity power or influence, I'm gonna be suspect.

[Adam Grant]

And I understand the suspicion. But if you've already then sorted them into a box and said, okay, they must be narcissists.

[Brené Brown]

No, I don't say that. I don't say that.

[Adam Grant]

What do you say?

[Brené Brown]

They're dodgy as fuck, man. That's different. I would never label someone as a social worker. I don't believe in pathologizing. I would just say you're dodgy and. No.

[Adam Grant]

All right, so. But then anything else you see them do is going to be filtered through that lens and you become. It's confirmation bias. It's a self knowing prophecy. Right?

[Brené Brown]

Yes. I knew you were going to go right into confirmation bias, Adam. Confirmation bias rant. Go ahead.

[Adam Grant]

And you're doing it right now.

[Brené Brown]

I love it. Oh my God.

[Adam Grant]

It's a minor miracle that we're still talking, isn't it?

[Brené Brown]

I like it.

[Adam Grant]

No, what's interesting actually is I think it's. I wonder how much of it is confirmation bias and how much of it is the. Maybe the evil cousin of confirmation bias, which is desirability bias.

[Brené Brown]

Desirability bias?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. You know this one? So do you all know the distinction between the two? Confirmation desirability bias. Okay, here. This is going to be a 30 second crash course. Are you ready?

[Brené Brown]

It's powerful.

[Adam Grant]

Confirmation bias is I see what I expect to see. Desirability bias is I see what I want to see. And I wonder what worldview leads you to want people who are powerful to be dodgy.

[Brené Brown]

Okay, so do you want that?

[Adam Grant]

I guess is the first question.

[Brené Brown]

I don't want that. But let's. Let's be okay. If we're going to go here. Let's go back to when you and I were together at a conference.

[Adam Grant]

Uh, oh.

[Brené Brown]

And I said, I'm waiting for someone to walk with me to this thing. And you said, why? You know, you don't like to go by yourself or what? And it was a friendly question. And I said, I don't know, it's weird when I go by myself. And you said, why? And I said, because I'm gonna get stopped many times. And especially cause this was a conference where there was a lot of powerful people and they will unload on me Demand things from me and ask me and I don't know them, but they'll just be like, you know. And you're like, really? Because we do the same thing and that never happens to you. And I said, why don't you walk with me? By the time we got there, he was like, hell no. Why are these people stopping you? What is going on here? So I think it's not. I don't want. It's not desirability or confirmation bias. It's self protection. Because I don't think people know that I'm super introverted. And if you stop me and you, you tell me really hard and heavy things and then you're. And if anyone in here did it, it would probably be. It would be okay. It could be maybe awkward.

[Adam Grant]

Well, not everyone, but most people.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah. But like, but when, but when it's an influential or famous person, they'll say, can I get your cell phone number? I'd love to talk to you about this, you know, And I'm like, I don't have a cell phone. I mean, I'm a terrible liar. I'm like, they're like, email. And I'm like, I don't email. Let me give you. Let me.

[Adam Grant]

Here's my fax number.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah, fax me. Fax you. So I think it's self protective, but it's also, it's like I see dead people like that movie. Like,

[Adam Grant]

yeah, spoiler alert.

[Brené Brown]

Yes. I see how people sometimes with influence have entitlement and are open to collecting people like me. Like they collect tchotchkes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And so I'm suspect.

[Adam Grant]

So why does that happen to you and not me? I think I can think of three possibilities. One is gender.

[Brené Brown]

Okay, we're done.

[Adam Grant]

No, but there's more. Two, I tend to talk mostly about data. And you go deep into people's emotions.

[Brené Brown]

That's true.

[Adam Grant]

I think that maybe creates a more personal or parasocial connection. But then three, also, you're a social worker. You actually help people you can. Right? And they think you're a therapist.

[Brené Brown]

I mean, people do think I'm a therapist. Which I'm like, would you want me to be your therapist? I mean, like, I have a therapist, but would you want me to be your therapist? No, you would not. I'd be like. And he said, what? No, we're done. Let's text him right now. I would be terrible at that. You're the psychologist.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, but not the kind who actually helps anyone.

[Brené Brown]

So that's not raise your hand if you've been helped by Adam's work. Like, that's not true. I think it's the topics I study, but I think it's gender. I think a lot of it is gender.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so then the question is, you make a judgment of that person when they very inappropriately dump vulnerability on you, and maybe also show some entitlement and even some narcissism in what they ask of you. But is that an indication of their character? Or is that a moment that showed you a problematic tendency they have which may coexist also with some virtues along with that vice?

[Brené Brown]

Or do I give a shit which one of those it is? But honestly, that is the question. Do I care if that's your character? Do I care if it's a temporary lack of judgment? I don't care. Just keep walking. Like, just. I actually. I actually. I am a good person, FYI.

[Adam Grant]

You don't have to defend that.

[Brené Brown]

No, but I don't love it. And I don't. The only thing I can tell you this. The only time I felt like this before was when I was pregnant.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, and everyone wants to touch you with no permission.

[Brené Brown]

And people would come up and touch me. And I was like, ooh. A pregnant body's not a public body. A pregnant body's not a public body. You know, like, you know, back then when we were learning all the new language, like, this is my safe space.

[Adam Grant]

Quick aside. I had no idea that even existed until Allison was pregnant with her oldest. And the first time someone made a beeline to rub her tummy, I was like, wait, you think you can touch a stranger just because she's pregnant? And I was like, can I go up and just start rubbing other. How is this suddenly okay? And so I started drafting an op ed that was called please stop touching my wife. And nothing came of it. But this is horrifying. And so you feel this when. Yeah, okay, I get it. So here's the question.

[Brené Brown]

I'm being diagnosed by the psychologist.

[Adam Grant]

No, I don't.

[Brené Brown]

In real time.

[Adam Grant]

I'm not qualified to diagnose you, and I don't have a diagnosis. I think the. The self protective instinct is understandable. I think the question is, then what do you do with it? Because I think your impulse is to just not be in the room.

[Brené Brown]

We're talking.

[Adam Grant]

Let me decode.

[Brené Brown]

We're talking about. Do you want to go to this event where there's a lot of people like this? And I'm like, no. Never in my career have I ever Been. Nor do I want to start going now. I'm waiting for Longhorn football season. I'm waiting to start tubing when it gets warm. No, I don't want to be with these people. At the same time. It's an amazing. The one time I've done something like that, it was a really interesting learning experience. But you know what? You know what I don't like this is happening in real time. Is it awkward?

[Adam Grant]

It is now.

[Brené Brown]

Well, no, but it wasn't before. But you know what I don't like? I don't want to be a part of a world of exchange and transaction. Like, I have no interest in power, celebrity. I can, you know, make my own money. And so I think, I worry that that world is transactional and that we see evidence today of people that made very dangerous decisions to get close to power.

[Adam Grant]

And this is what narcissists do, right? They use people for their own gain.

[Brené Brown]

Yes, that's it.

[Adam Grant]

That's the connection.

[Brené Brown]

I knew it was gonna tidy up in a bow. A big Texas taffeta bow.

[Adam Grant]

Here's the thing, though. I think so your self protective response is mostly to opt out when you get invited to address a group of world leaders or CEOs or Hollywood people. And I get it. And there are people who will say, don't you know you should not be in that room? And there are people who always are in that room. I don't want that room to exist without voices like yours in it.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, sweet. I mean, that's really thoughtful. That's really kind of.

[Adam Grant]

You all are with me. So I'm just going to pile on a little bit more because I want to be able to say later, Brene, remember when all the people at south by were cheering for you showing up? Where is the moral compass if you opt out and only the transactional people show up and they run the world? That scares the hell out of me.

[Brené Brown]

Bummer. Can we do it? Not during football season.

[Adam Grant]

I'll settle for that one.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, no, I do. I have watched you do it and navigate it really well. And you are the least power proximity person. You.

[Adam Grant]

What's the opposite of a star fucker?

[Brené Brown]

A star runner. Join me. Yeah, I think it's probably my reaction. Even when we're talking about narcissism and leadership, it's just. It feels so dangerous because at the inside of it, whether we're talking about US politics, we're talking about global leaders, we're talking about leaders and organizations, at the bottom of it is dehumanization. And it's about transactional access to power, access to influence. And I feel like that is just never. It has always been so cautionary to me. And I don't. And I think part of it is, like my pathological introversion, that I'm not good in those situations. I mean, I am. You know what? I am actually good at them. You're not good in those situations.

[Adam Grant]

You don't like them?

[Brené Brown]

I'm very good in them at them, actually. But it's very costly for me privately. And I think I remember the first time I was the first Random House author in the history of Random House to do a book tour without a book signing. And so the first time I went like. It launched in la, the book tour did. So I looked up and I said, I won't be signing books today. I'll be happy to stay an extra 30 minutes or 45 minutes and talk to you about the work, but I'm not gonna sign your book because there's nothing. My signature has no value. And I need to go home whole to my kids and my husband. And that leaves me less than whole. And in that second, every woman in the room jumped to their feet and started clapping. I wasn't paying attention to what the guys were doing. Cause I just saw women.

[Adam Grant]

Because there were four guys in the room at that time.

[Brené Brown]

No, there were a lot, including, I think, the Seattle Seahawks. But I think the women were like, it goes back to the bank account. You know, it goes back to. I can go to those rooms and I can talk and do those kind of things. And I don't. Like. I wouldn't mind if they were here and I talked and I left. But the cost for me is high.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I just. I've never known you to be someone who is unwilling to pay a temporary price for potential lasting contribution.

[Brené Brown]

No, I'm not. I'm happy to send them a book and listen to the podcast, the Curiosity Shop, wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. Okay, so I think this recording is gonna launch as our third podcast. So just. I'm curious. Cause we have 22 seconds left. What do y' all think? Podcast. Yeah. We don't always get along.

[Adam Grant]

Wait a second.

[Brené Brown]

We always get along. We always get along mostly. But we don't always agree. But I think that's okay today, right? People need to be able to get along and not agree, potentially. But I'm grateful for you.

[Adam Grant]

The gratitude is mutual. I'm not gonna make a cheesy heart symbol. I like you. I really do.

[Brené Brown]

I know y' all had a lot of choices about where to go with your fancy badges, but we were really excited about launching the podcast at south by Southwest and really excited to do it with y' all and so we're grateful. So thank y'. All. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

[Adam Grant]

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning [e-mail] thanks to

[Brené Brown]

Canva for their support. With incredible tools to boost your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real. Canva. It's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn [e-mail] thanks to SAS for their support.

[Adam Grant]

It's an important question to ask of any corporation. Are the company's values aspirational, or are they actually showing up in what people do? Data and AI Leader SAS lands in the second category. SAS has 50 years of experience helping people in organizations make better decisions with data, and they brought that same rigor to AI building accountability and human oversight into the technology itself. Visit sas.com to learn more about SAS's commitment to responsible, trustworthy AI. That's sas.com.