Adam Grant (2:16)

Yeah. I have a ton of questions for you about it.

Brene Brown (2:18)

Okay, this is a really funny story. When I was first doing the shame research, this was probably 20 something years ago, we were running a group in a domestic violence shelter, piloting a curriculum. And like the third group we ran, the self nominated leader came up and said, I've met with everyone in the group, we have a proposal. And I said, oh, you know, okay, great. And it's always good to know who the Emerging leader is in a group situation. And she said, we don't like the word shame. And I was like, oh, that's gonna be tough. Cause it's a shame resilience group. And she said, we would like to, moving forward, say shamay instead. And so for the next. Yeah, the next nine weeks, when people would be sharing or when I'd be talking about it, or the co facilitator who's actually the clinician, I was the researcher. You know, someone would say, listen, I was. So that really put me into some really deep shamay. And so.

Adam Grant (3:11)

Yes, that's hilarious. So you take the shame out of shame by mispronouncing it.

Brene Brown (3:15)

Yeah. You know why? Because just the word shame can elicit. It's got a contagion to it that's hard for people.

Adam Grant (3:23)

So I can absolutely see that.

Brene Brown (3:25)

Can you see that?

Adam Grant (3:25)

Yeah, I mean, frankly, I. I mean, did you see what happened in the Michigan football program last fall?

Brene Brown (3:32)

Oh, yeah.

Adam Grant (3:33)

Anybody? I grew up in Michigan. I went to grad school there. A lot of my family went there. I've been a die hard Wolverine fan forever and it's hard not to escape the feeling of shame there. But we won a national championship, so I'm feeling a little better.

Brene Brown (3:44)

You did win the Natty. Congratulations.

Adam Grant (3:46)

Thank you.

Brene Brown (3:47)

What a. What a. What a slugfest game it was against you, Colin.

Adam Grant (3:51)

It was a little ugly.

Brene Brown (3:51)

Yeah, it was a little ugly. But congratulations.

Adam Grant (3:53)

Thank you.

Brene Brown (3:54)

I will proudly say go. Is it this Michigan? Is this the sign?

Adam Grant (4:01)

I've never done that.

Brene Brown (4:02)

Oh, I don't know. I'm big into the signs of the mascots. So we're gonna talk about Shami.

Adam Grant (4:07)

All right, I'm ready.

Brene Brown (4:08)

Okay, so where do you wanna start? You want to start with your issues?

Adam Grant (4:11)

You're a shame expert? Yeah.

Brene Brown (4:12)

I mean, yeah. So I always start like with the one, two threes. One, we all have it. Two, no one wants to talk about it. And three, the less you talk about it, the more you have it. So I am thinking about doing again. This was two decades ago, doing grand rounds at a hospital. At a hospital. Psychology department. Psychiatric department. And afterwards the head of the psychiatric department came up and said, this is the first conversation I've been here for 30 years that we've ever had on shame. And it's the number one presenting issue we deal with. No one is talking about it. And at this exact same time, I was having my PhD students do a content analysis to see in all of the primary texts that are adopted across psychology, social work, counseling, how Much are we talking about shame? And at that time, which again, it would have been 1998, we found one chapter, and it was written by me in 70 texts.

Adam Grant (5:21)

Wow.

Brene Brown (5:22)

Yeah. This is one of those things that we have become very slow to talk about because of the contagion of the word itself. So when we talk about diagnoses or we talk about issues, we can find some comfort in us and them. But there is no us and them and shame to be alive. You know it, everyone's got it, no one wants to talk about it. The less you talk about, the more you have it. So I think that we were early and there have been. There were people, tangy and daring, great researchers, really doing excellent research and compiling research. There were some folks in addiction who were talking about shame because that's a really complicated relationship, addiction and shame. So the one tooth threes. I think the big thing to know about shame is you can't talk about it until you differentiate it from what we call the other self conscious affects. So affect, fancy word for emotion. The other emotions that. That make us feel self conscious that are reflection on self. So shame, guilt, humiliation and embarrassment.

Adam Grant (6:33)

That tracks.

Brene Brown (6:34)

That tracks.

Adam Grant (6:34)

So far so good.

Brene Brown (6:35)

Yeah. So big difference in the ones we use interchangeably. Shame and guilt. Shame. The best way I explain it, shame is I am bad and guilt is I did something bad. Shame is a focus on self. Guilt is a focus on behavior. And so I always like, this is because I came up teaching this in graduate school for social workers. I always like to say, you get your paper back, you got a crappy grade. And the way we measure shame or guilt proneness in a person is really by their self talk. So you get your paper back and you have a D, which is hard to conceptualize. I was like, I'm not liking this. You have a D for dude, do better. And your self talk is, God, I'm so stupid. I'm so stupid. I'm such an idiot. Shame. You get your paper back, you get a D. Your self talk is. God, it was really stupid to go out Thursday night and not study for this test.

Adam Grant (7:36)

Guilt.

Brene Brown (7:36)

Guilt. Focus on, you know, behavior versus you. And guilt is adaptive. Would you agree? I mean, guilt is holding something you've done up against your own values and experiencing, I guess what we would call cognitive dissonance. That psychological discomfort that I did something or failed to do something aligned with my values.

Adam Grant (8:01)

Yeah. Or that that hurt someone else. Yeah. Or. And I think, you know, it's interesting. I think a lot of people push back on the Idea that guilt is useful because they've been on one too many guilt trips.

Brene Brown (8:13)

Right.

Adam Grant (8:14)

But I mean, I think the evidence is incredibly strong. We know that in romantic relationships, guilt is a driver of repair.

Brene Brown (8:21)

Right.

Adam Grant (8:22)

You. You want to right your wrongs. You probably know Becky Schomburg's research on leadership showing that leaders who are prone to guilt are actually more responsible leaders because they worry about letting others down and they try to do the right thing. And I think it's a much more functional emotion than most people realize.

Brene Brown (8:41)

Okay, so let's pause here. And I want to talk about adaptive guilt versus I'm taking on shit that doesn't belong to me.

Adam Grant (8:55)

Yes, please do.

Brene Brown (8:56)

Which can be gendered. You know, like I am responsible for everything and everyone and I feel guilt that doesn't belong to me. And so I think we have to make the distinction on guilt as defined by taking self responsibility for your choices and how they impact other people. I think that's adaptive.

Adam Grant (9:25)

Yeah, I think so too. Can we add one more layer onto that? Which is? I think there's a difference between. I look at my behavior and I recognize that it doesn't measure up to my standards or other people's standards versus somebody else is imposing guilt on me and trying to make me feel bad and manipulate me into then doing their bidding.

Brene Brown (9:44)

Oh my God, that's huge. Yeah, that's huge. I think in the purest form of guilt being adaptive, it's self reflective, it's self evaluative. You know, I think, and this is a gender issue, I mean, I think women, you know, women carry a lot of things. And I think our. Because we pick a lot of things up off the ground and because a lot of stuff is shoved our way in equal measure.

Adam Grant (10:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Brene Brown (10:10)

And it's. And the reason we pick things up off of the ground, I'm gonna have to say, is also socialization. Okay, so we have shame and guilt. I did something bad. I am bad. And you have to remember that shame is the feeling and belief that we are flawed to the extent that we are not worthy of love and belonging and connection. This is very survival based stuff, which is why people have a hard time talking about it. So the other two. This is where my work has dramatically changed. So we have new evidence. And everything I said before about humiliation was wrong. It's different now.

Adam Grant (10:51)

Wow, that's a strong statement.

Brene Brown (10:52)

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I'll tell you why. Early on, and aligned with other researchers looking at humiliation, we believed that the mediating variable between what could make somebody Feel guilt versus humiliation was simply the variable of deserving. So I'm going to give you an example that actually happened when we were doing the research. And this was pretty shocking. We were in a classroom, I think it was fourth grade, and the teacher handed out and they knew why we were there. And so we had consent from parents, consent from the school district, handed out the papers and had one left and said, I've got one paper left and it doesn't have a name on it. Anyone here want to guess whose paper this is that doesn't have a name on it? And kind of people got very quiet and the students got fearful and said, susie, did you get back a paper? No, Susie does not get back a paper because Susie doesn't have a name on it. Susie, I'm gonna put the name on it for you. S t u P I D so I want to. I want to. I know, I know. Look on your face. I want to kind of pause this for a second. Let us take a breath and walk us through a couple things here. So we use that story as an example of several things. The first is the difference between shame and humiliation. So if Susie's self talk is, God, I'm so stupid. Why am I so stupid? Why don't I remember my name? Shame. If Susie's self talk, this is how we used to talk about humiliation was, she's so mean. She's the worst teacher ever. I did not deserve that. That would be humiliation, right? And we believed early on that humiliation was dangerous than shame because there was a self righteousness to it and you would report.

Adam Grant (12:42)

Right? I don't own it. It's their fault, not mine.

Brene Brown (12:44)

I don't own it. Right. I don't own it. Also, as a caregiver or a parent, I'm much more likely to hear about humiliation than shame because with shame, there's nothing to report. I am stupid. I got called stupid. With humiliation, I'm not stupid. I got called stupid. And so it's really. And so that deserving piece was a huge part of how we thought about humiliation. But I want to go back and I have notes here because I want to talk through. And we'll come back to Susie in that example because it's harsh. This is what's changed my mind about humiliation. It's a series of studies. Let's go start. Susan Harder and colleagues examined the media profiles of 10 prominent school shooters between 1996 and 1999. Harder and her colleagues reported that in every case, the shooters described how they had been ridiculed taunted, humiliated and teased by peers. They were spurned by someone in whom they were romantically interested or put down in front of other students by a teacher or administrator. All events leading up to the shooting had a history of profound humiliation. Not enough to move me yet. Then the report prompted a series of studies by Jeff Ellison and Susan Harder that found links for peer rejection, humiliation, depression and anger with both suicidal and homicidal tests tendencies. And this is really interesting because we talked about bullying from the south by Southwest stage. Right. Their studies suggest that bullying alone does not lead to aggression. Instead, individuals who are bullied become violent, specifically when feelings of humiliation accompany the bullying.

Adam Grant (14:28)

Wow.

Brene Brown (14:31)

So all of a sudden in the research, humiliation is taking on a completely different color. Last, and this is a researcher I've followed for decades, Linda Hartlane. She ties together a lot of the research from several areas to propose a model explaining how humiliation can lead to violence. She suggests that humiliation can trigger a series of reactions including social pain, decreased self awareness, increased self defeating behavior, decreased self regulation that ultimately lead to violence. And I want to share this quote from Hartling with you. Humiliation is not only the most underappreciated force in international relations, it may be the missing link in the search for the root causes of political instability and violent conflict. Perhaps the most toxic social dynamic of our age.

Adam Grant (15:20)

Wow.

Brene Brown (15:22)

So I think what was news to me when I read these and I and I changed course in Atlas of the Heart and kind of said, let me, let me introduce the rethink here.

Adam Grant (15:32)

I get behind that.

Brene Brown (15:34)

You get behind that, don't you? Is bullying alone doesn't lead to violence. But the combination of bullying and profound humiliation.

Kerastase Advertiser (15:46)

Did you know your hair ages just like your skin does? The new Chronologiste line offers luxurious youth revitalizing care for aging hair. It reverses the five key signs of hair lack of thickness and volume, dullness, dryness and frizz in just one night. Use the full range of Chronologiste shampoo mask and overnight serum and wake up to visibly fuller, smoother, healthier hair. Shop the new chronologiste line@kerastase.com Zootopia 2

Adam Grant (16:17)

has come home to Disney.

Brene Brown (16:19)

Let's go get ready for a new case.

Kerastase Advertiser (16:21)

We're gonna crack this case and prove

Brene Brown (16:23)

we're the greatest partners of all time.

Adam Grant (16:24)

New friends.

Brene Brown (16:25)

You are Gary the Snake and your last name the Snake Dream Team Hindu Habitats Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home.

Adam Grant (16:39)

You're clearly working at Zootopia 2.

Brene Brown (16:42)

Now available on Disney. Rated PG.

Vox News Narrator (16:47)

Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been talking about the war in Iran in distinctly biblical terms, citing Psalms, the resurrection of Jesus, and the book of Quintus.

Brene Brown (16:57)

And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother.

Vox News Narrator (17:04)

President Trump is comparing himself to Christ. Vice President Vance is fighting with the Pope. Watching all of this is the increasingly influential Pastor Doug Wilson. He co founded the church that Hegseth attends. Wilson's a Christian nationalist who would like the USA to be a theocracy. He'd also like to help us get there, though he doesn't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

Adam Grant (17:24)

I believe that it is accelerating. I believe that we're making significant gains.

Brene Brown (17:29)

I see assembling resources and I'm encouraged in that labor.

Adam Grant (17:34)

But I don't expect to see what we're praying for in my lifetime.

Vox News Narrator (17:38)

Pastor Doug Wilson and how much you should worry about his plans on today. Explained from Vox Weekdays, afternoons, wherever.

Adam Grant (17:47)

Okay, so talk to me about what humiliation is, because from that description, it sounds to me like just a combination of shame and embarrassment.

Brene Brown (17:56)

So, embarrassment. So that's really interesting because we're talking about the four conscious, self conscious affects, shame, guilt, humiliation, embarrassment, embarrassment. The hallmark of embarrassment is fleeting, often funny with time. But the real hallmark of embarrassment is when it happens to me. I don't feel alone. I know I'm not the first person to mispronounce someone's name or walk out of the bathroom with toilet paper on my shoe. So what I think is the definition of how I would think about humiliation based on these studies is internalized public shaming. So it's a combination of shame, because I can feel shame alone. You know, I can try on an outfit and look in the mirror and then have that warm wash come over me and be like the delta between what I thought I look like and what I think I look actually look like is shaming. Or I can. You know, for me, a real example of shame as a public person is when someone says something really hateful and personal about me. I don't feel shame about that. I feel shame when I think about someone I love reading it. Do you know what I mean?

Adam Grant (19:14)

Yep.

Brene Brown (19:15)

Like, I hate that feeling. And then I feel I have that whole warm wash of small want to disappear. Am I lovable? That kind of thing. And I've got a lot of tools now to get through that. So I'm not very shame prone anymore. I mean, Jesus, two decades of research,

Adam Grant (19:32)

you Think that should be the ultimate armor. Right.

Brene Brown (19:35)

That's the big door prize. But I think that humiliation has a public belittling piece to it that shame doesn't always have.

Adam Grant (19:45)

Yeah. So that makes me think we're using the term wrong in sports. Then when we talk about teams being humiliated by other teams, usually that doesn't lead them to feel unworthy or unlovable. Right. I think oftentimes they realize, okay, we were not up to the standard we wanted to be at. So they were humbled, but they weren't humiliated.

Brene Brown (20:06)

I think it depends. Okay, so this is, this is so interesting. I think it depends on how the narrative the team tells itself. Certainly I have been with teams post trouncing in locker rooms where the feeling was humiliation. And the coach drove that home. Yep, they drove. They, the coach drove home. You are not worthy. You are not worthy of that field. You are not worthy of this jersey. You are not worthy of this franchise. So I. So it leads me to something else and I want to not forget to go back to Susie. The one thing that's really hard about the self conscious affect, shame, humiliation, embarrassment and guilt is that they're highly individualized. So I tell this example often. If I forgot your birthday or Alison's birthday, How dare you. How dare you. Yeah, Adam's wife today, I would probably have a glimmer of embarrassment or guilt and say, hey, happy belated birthday. I hope it was a great one and can't wait for what's gonna unfold this year. If I forgot your birthday. When Ellen, my oldest, was somewhere between 0 and 5, I would have gone straight into shame because I was trying to balance being a PhD student getting, getting a position as an ABD, a marriage. And everything I, everything I failed to do was a reminder of how half ass I was. So what is shaming for me can be humiliating for you, can be mildly embarrassing for someone else. It's highly. So when you say, what language do we use to describe the sports team in the locker room? It depends on their narrative.

Adam Grant (21:59)

Right. That makes a lot of sense.

Brene Brown (22:01)

Does that make sense?

Adam Grant (22:02)

It does. Okay, so one follow up question because I want to talk about how to deal with shame. And what do you do for Susie? I've often had a hard time relating to people's experiences of shame. I lived a lot of guilt and embarrassment in my life, but shame is pretty foreign to me. I get like, I get it when kids feel it because they don't know any better than to internalize. Like they haven't, you know, often they haven't developed a sense of self, and so I did something wrong can really quickly bleed into there's something wrong with me. What I've always been puzzled by is why don't people outgrow shame? Like, as an adult, you should know if you're not severely harming other people or doing anything unethical, you're probably not a terrible person. Like, why, why is that so rare for people to realize that? Is that. I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but. No, it's a genuine one for me.

Brene Brown (22:57)

No, it sounds like a genuine question and it sounds like an important question. And it's really important because you're not the first or 500th person who's asked me that question. And I think it's really important because the antidote to shame is empathy. And so when you don't understand shame, it can lead you to empathic failure with people who are in it. Sometimes not because you lack empathy, but because it's like you're not. You don't really think this makes you a terrible, unlovable person. Right.

Adam Grant (23:25)

That's exactly my response.

Brene Brown (23:27)

Right.

Adam Grant (23:27)

It's actually worse. Like, well, that's just irrational. Like this specific thing you did or the choice you made. Why is that casting a shadow on your whole sense of self and character?

Brene Brown (23:38)

Yeah, I think that. I don't know that I really have a great answer for this. I mean, I think for a lot of us who were raised with a healthy dose of shame, so that being good and being right and being all these things felt conditional for love. I think shame is a very hard thing to overcome. I think the other thing is one of the most common and profound expressions are functions of shame is perfectionism. Perfectionism, like when perfectionism is driving, shame is riding shotgun. Because perfectionism is the belief that if I can look perfect, do it perfect, work perfect and deliver perfectly, I can avoid or minimize shame, blame humiliation.

Adam Grant (24:34)

Right.

Brene Brown (24:35)

And you know, you know how many adults struggle with perfectionism.

Adam Grant (24:38)

Yeah.

Brene Brown (24:38)

Right. And so I think it comes to the idea that, and I would not say it's just parenting. I would say we're learning more and more that it's hardwiring. I think that's another thing. I've radically shifted on that for a long time. We would all say, those of us who studied self conscious affect, parenting is the number one predictor variable of shame. I think it's definitely a variable. I think kids can come hardwired for a sensitivity of self criticism. What do you think?

Adam Grant (25:07)

I mean, this has been probably my biggest Revelation from reading developmental psychology and behavioral genetics in general is that I think overall, we overestimate nurture effects and underestimate nature effects 100%, which anyone who's had a second child immediately realizes. Parents of one child are really strong believers in nurture. And then all of a sudden, number two arrives, and you think you did the exact same things, and they react really differently. And all of a sudden, you realize there's a lot of pre wiring that happens here.

Brene Brown (25:36)

Yeah. And I'm wondering, you know, I think about my own kids, like, what was it like to be raised by a shame researcher? I can tell you that Ellen's kindergarten teacher called me one day and said, wow, I completely get what you do. And I said, why? And she said, we had the glitter center today. And I looked over at Ellen and I said, you are a mess. And she sat straight up and she said, I may be making a mess. I am not a mess. Yeah. I mean, like, wow. Yeah. And so I think that that's fantastic. I think that ability, and I've experienced it in you, like in whatever the research term is for shit ton. You have a tremendous ability to separate behavior and put behavior on a table and dissect it without being emotionally invested in that.

Adam Grant (26:35)

Yeah, that's my job. That's what I do.

Brene Brown (26:39)

Yeah. But I also think it's your job and my job and anyone that does what we do to understand that that's probably more rare than it is common.

Adam Grant (26:49)

Yeah. And I struggle with people who don't do that instinctively.

Brene Brown (26:54)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (26:54)

Like, this is a logical error. Stop confusing the person for the action.

Brene Brown (26:58)

And. And I think that's good leadership. And I think that can be really good leadership. Because a lot of times what I'll have to tell people is if we're doing a postmortem on something that went wrong, I have to say very distinctly, hey, we're looking for failures in systems, not failures, people as failures. We're looking for failures in systems. We're looking for failures in systems. We're looking for choices, you know, and shame proneness is two things at the same time. Very tough to lead someone that's deep into shame proneness, because when they go down, they don't get back up easily. Two, it is absolutely leveraged to get productivity out of people. And we'll talk about that in a minute about how shame shows up at work. So I think it's really important to understand the difference between shame, guilt, humiliation, embarrassment. I want to go back to the conversation where Susie.

Adam Grant (27:54)

Susie. Yep.

Brene Brown (27:55)

We debriefed with the teacher and said, help us understand what's happening.

Adam Grant (28:02)

Talk about separating behavior from character, by the way.

Brene Brown (28:05)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (28:06)

I mean, my first impulse, even as somebody who likes to do that and does it frequently, would have been to say, fire that teacher. Like, no teacher who thinks it's okay to do that to a student should be employed in this profession.

Brene Brown (28:17)

I agree.

Adam Grant (28:17)

You should not be trusted with children.

Brene Brown (28:19)

I agree. And I mean, we do have. We have two things about teachers and administrators and coaches that are important. Don't hear one without the other one. 85% of all adults we've interviewed over two decades can remember something so shaming that happened at school. It forever changed how they thought of themselves as learners. Wow. Two, over 90% can remember a teacher, a coach or administrator who absolutely help them believe in themselves. So there is nothing we can draw from that except for the sheer power those folks have. Yeah.

Adam Grant (28:52)

Big time.

Brene Brown (28:52)

And more people use it for good. But shame can be used as a classroom management tool, for sure.

Adam Grant (28:57)

Wow.

Brene Brown (28:58)

So when we asked the teacher, tell me what you were thinking. Tell me how you experienced Susie's response to what you said. And she said, she's so smart. She's such a good kid. She is not putting her name on papers. She's forgetting basic things. Do you know what happens to kids like her when they're held back in fourth grade? Do you know what chances she has of being successful if she's held back in fourth grade? We cannot let her be held back in fourth grade.

Adam Grant (29:26)

Wow. That teacher has a broken mental model of her job.

Brene Brown (29:29)

Well, I don't know that she has a broken mental model. I think she has a real lack of options for skills building. I think she has not thought through. I think she believed probably similarly to how she was raised, but it's an assumption. We didn't get into it. If I torment enough, and a lot of parents do this, if I torment enough, you'll change. As opposed to saying, I need to call an ard, I need to get a specialist involved. I need to understand what's happening here. She cannot afford to be held back.

Adam Grant (30:09)

Wow. But it's just. It's such a misdiagnosis of the problem.

Brene Brown (30:13)

Right.

Adam Grant (30:13)

To think that, well, she doesn't care enough and therefore I'm going to mock her in front of the class. And now all of a sudden she's going to feel so much fear of being in that situation again that she's going to be attentive to detail and careful.

Brene Brown (30:27)

But how does that. You just described how Marketing and advertising works across the country. You just described how social media works across the company at the country. Like, this is how the world in many ways works. We will humiliate shame and mock you into believing you are not worthy of connection. And then we will sell you the beer or the sweater or the eyeshadow that makes you lovable. So I don't know that her thinking, while the demonstration of it was one of the most painful things I have ever. And I wanted to run out and stop it, but you can't. We did give her some tools and she did end up calling the ard, which is that a national term. Ard, like bringing together a bunch of folks from the school administrators, school counselors, outside testing folks to figure out what was going on. I have to tell you that shame is how a lot of pillars of capitalism are built in work and certainly advertising and media.

Adam Grant (31:32)

So interesting. I've never seen it through that lens at all.

Brene Brown (31:35)

Yeah, I mean, if everyone. Imagine what would happen in the diet, cosmetic, plastic surgery industries if today everyone woke up and looked in the mirror and said, I'm amazing, I'm worthy of love and belonging. I mean, industries would collapse within 24, 48 hours. It would be the airline, post 9 11. Like, a lot of things work because we've commodified what will make us feel less ashamed. So you're an outlier.

Adam Grant (32:12)

Good to know. Thank you for calling me that.

Brene Brown (32:14)

Anyways.

Adam Grant (32:16)

All right, so what do we do about it? I would love to learn how to be more empathetic and help people out of shame. As a parent, as a colleague, but also, how do you help people deal with it internally too?

Brene Brown (32:30)

Okay, so shame resilience is really interesting. You remember petri dishes?

Adam Grant (32:35)

I do, yeah.

Brene Brown (32:36)

So if you put shame in a petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially into every corner and crevice of your life. Silence, secrecy, and judgment. If you douse it with each of those, it will grow into everywhere. Everywhere.

Adam Grant (32:50)

Can we call it silence, secrecy and scorn? I just wanted to alliterate, move on.

Brene Brown (32:55)

Oh, yeah. I was like, wait, I'm trying to think. Like, is that the same judgment is really dangerous for shame?

Adam Grant (33:01)

Yep.

Brene Brown (33:03)

But I appreciate the alliteration call out. Okay, if you have shame in a petri dish the same amount and you douse it with empathy, you have created a hostile environment for shame. Shame cannot survive empathy. Because what empathy does is empathy, first and foremost helps us believe and see. I can be seen and I'm not alone. And shame needs. Shame doesn't do well when you wrap words around. Doesn't want to be spoken. It wants to live kind of, you know, inside building, building, metastasizing. So empathy is the antidote. Let's start with. I think this is interesting. And I'll put a PDF up on the show notes. Let's talk about how we the three kind of most common ways we deal with shame when we go into it. Have you ever gone into shame?

Adam Grant (33:59)

I don't know. I honestly don't know if I have.

Brene Brown (34:02)

It'd be unusual.

Adam Grant (34:05)

I can think of feeling intense guilt and embarrassment. I don't think I can come up with an example of a time I felt it. Shame.

Brene Brown (34:13)

I love it.

Adam Grant (34:15)

Which is why I'm so useless when other people are feeling it. No, I Foreign to me.

Brene Brown (34:20)

I mean, I don't. There are some affects that I don't have a ton of experience with that I think I can get close enough to and understand. So I don't think that's the lift. Might be bigger to understand. So three kind of ways we protect ourselves from shame. And this is. These are called. I love this Strategies of disconnection. And they're from the Stone center at Wellesley. Again, Linda Hartling's work. One, when we're in shame, we move away. We withdraw, we hide. Two, we move toward we people please. And three, we move against. We use shame to fight shame.

Adam Grant (34:58)

Okay, so this is a version of fight Flight or Fawn.

Brene Brown (35:02)

It is absolutely. It is absolute tide to our defense mechanisms, 100%. So I'll tell you a very quick story that I've used for, again, forever, just to illustrate it. So very quick story. And I think it's interesting because a lot of my early stories were about navigating being a new mom in academics, where they're like, that's cute. Conceptually. Don't look like a mom, smell like a mom, or act like a mom. Right. I mean, we're from the same tower. So I got invited by the Nobel Women's Initiative, all the living Nobel Peace Prize winners to go to be on their board and go to a meeting. Charlie was only six months old. I was really afraid about. I was afraid to go. Ellen, I know this is not a big deal for a lot of people, but she was having her first swim meet and Steve and I were swimmers.

Adam Grant (35:53)

Of course. That's a big deal.

Brene Brown (35:54)

That's a big deal for me. I couldn't decide what to do. I talked to Steve and it was kind of a scary situation because Sharin Abadi from Iran had just Won the Nobel Prize. And there was a lot of threatened violence against the summit. So I was like, oh, my God, am I gonna go? Am I gonna miss Charlie? Am I going to miss the swim meet? Am I gonna. Is there gonna be violence that we're gonna have to, you know, like, what's. Like, there was a lot of things. And so Steve was like, you gotta go. So I went. First day back in Houston, I'm in carpool. I see this woman walking up to me, and, man, this woman is so dangerous. I mean, she's just a. She's a hard person for me in every context. She's the kind of person that after she talks to, you're like, I feel slimed or shiv'd. One of the two.

Adam Grant (36:40)

Wow.

Brene Brown (36:40)

Yeah. So she walks up and I roll down my window and she goes, I mean, this much. And I'm like, hey, we're in carpool line. She goes, where have you been? And I said, you know, in my thing that I say to myself, mantra, don't shrink, don't puff up. Just be in your sacred ground. So I was like, oh, I was out of town for work. And she goes, who took care of those babies while you were gone? And I said, their father, Steve. And she said, oh, my God, it must be so hard to let other people raise your kids when you're out of town working all the time. And so one of the things that's really helpful is people who have the highest levels of shame resilience, they can physically recognize shame, because when you're in shame, you are not safe for human consumption. Do not talk text type, do not do anything. And so I know my shame when I'm in shame. And you're gonna find this so interesting. Time slows down, I get tunnel vision, my armpits tingle. It is the exact same we have found in the research for 20 years. Trauma response.

Adam Grant (37:54)

Wow.

Brene Brown (37:54)

Like, if I'm driving down the highway and it's raining and the 18 wheeler jackknifes in front of me, time's gonna slow down, I'm gonna get tunnel vision. My armpits are gonna tingle. I'm in flight or fight. So I'm like, oh, my God. Don't talk, text or type. Don't talk sex or type. And I said, like, I went into a totally scripted moment. I said, oh, I've gotta pull up for the line. Nice seeing you. So I raised my window back up and the car in front of me had not moved. So I literally went up three inches and then did not make eye contact with her while she stood right here. I was like, because what would moving away look like? It would mean grabbing my kid, getting home, hiding from carpool, hiding from the other moms at the school, just disappearing. What would moving toward look like? I would say, oh, my God, I know. It is so hard to let other people take care of my kids. And you're the best mom ever. What is the risk throwing up in your own mouth. Then you've got moving against.

Adam Grant (38:53)

And this is where I go, yeah, you want to. Where?

Brene Brown (38:58)

I literally would have said, have you seen your kids in school? You should let someone raise them. You know, like, that's where I'm going.

Adam Grant (39:06)

I kind of want you to have said that.

Brene Brown (39:07)

I know, I know. But the problem is none of those are me. All of them would cause downhill shitshow. So what did I do? So here's shame resilience. I got Ellen, put her in the car, got home, got her started on her homework, got her a snack, went into my closet, closed the door, called my best friend and started crying and said, why am I such a half ass mom, half ass scholar, half ass wife, half assed researcher? Why? You know? And she's like, you know, we just ended up laughing. Which is normally often the case in those situations. But I reached out for connection. She responded with deep empathy. And I was, okay. But these shame shields, these kind of ways, patterned ways of. And they call them strategies for disconnection. Because you're disconnecting from the pain of shame, Right? Do you have a strategy, but in

Adam Grant (40:08)

the process, you're disconnecting from your own values.

Brene Brown (40:11)

Then that's it. No, that. Okay, say that again in the process.

Adam Grant (40:14)

I mean, I don't want to say it word for word. I think what's happening is you're choosing to avoid shame, but you're also losing sight of your own principles.

Brene Brown (40:22)

That's it. Because what if I would have been really shitty to her?

Adam Grant (40:26)

You might have regretted it.

Brene Brown (40:27)

I would have regretted it for sure.

Adam Grant (40:29)

There is a part of me that wants to say, but just as a matter of justice, you should be able to say something like, you know, I was always told that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and leave it at that.

Brene Brown (40:42)

Yeah, I don't think. I think, okay, so help me with this. This is Adam Grant's getting ready to help us with shame.

Adam Grant (40:48)

We'll find out.

Brene Brown (40:51)

One of the things that we've learned is that when you go into shame, you come out of your prefrontal cortex and you get very limbic.

Adam Grant (40:59)

Right? Yep.

Brene Brown (41:00)

So coming up with smart, fun things to say.

Adam Grant (41:02)

Not easy.

Brene Brown (41:03)

Usually happens a day later.

Adam Grant (41:04)

Yeah. You get the George Costanza jerk store moment. That's what I should have said.

Brene Brown (41:09)

That's what I should have said. Yeah. And you. That's why I just. Do I borrow this from someone that was one of the first early qualitative researchers, research participants. She said one of the things that she developed when she was in shame is to go like this. Pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain. And she goes, am I crazy? And I said, no, you're really smart because you're bringing your prefrontal cortex back online.

Adam Grant (41:33)

That is very smart.

Brene Brown (41:34)

Do you know what I mean?

Adam Grant (41:35)

Yeah. Well, okay. So I guess I do have a way of doing this mostly to help other people when they encounter it. What I like to encourage people to do is just to have a mantra that will be a more effective way to connect to their values. My favorite one is, I'm not gonna let other people define my worth.

Brene Brown (41:57)

That's really powerful. God, but it's so fricking hard.

Adam Grant (42:00)

It's hard to do it in the moment. Right?

Brene Brown (42:02)

Yeah. I don't. I actually think. Would you agree that you'd have to be pretty squarely in this part of your brain to act on that, not to say it. It could be the stepping stone from Fight, Flight, Fawn, it might be. Or I think Fight, fight, Freeze, and Fawn are all actually options. Cause I think a lot of people in shame just. Yeah, they just.

Adam Grant (42:26)

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's right.

Brene Brown (42:29)

So do you think to say the mantra is step one of the neural pathway back to the front?

Adam Grant (42:35)

It could be.

Brene Brown (42:36)

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, one of the things we do, when we do, when we teach this work and facilitate this work, is we tell people, this is hard because you're building new neural pathways.

Adam Grant (42:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ideally. Right. That then leads to a bigger internal dialogue or conversation with a friend around. Why am I putting weight on what this person thinks? I don't even like this person. Of all the people that I might hand over the power to define my value, she would not be high on that list.

Brene Brown (43:05)

I mean, that's it. You know? And people have. When I've told that story before about the. About the mom at the school, they always say to me, why don't you. Did you circle back and say, hey, I want to talk to you? And I'm like, hell, no. That's an investment.

Adam Grant (43:19)

Yeah. And I don't that relationship is not worth it to you.

Brene Brown (43:22)

That's not worth it to me.

Adam Grant (43:24)

Have you heard from her since you've told the story? Did she recognize herself in it?

Brene Brown (43:28)

No, I've never heard from her.

Adam Grant (43:29)

Interesting.

Brene Brown (43:31)

I think certainly you're bringing up something that's really important to understand, which is a lot of the research on shame now will talk about. Unwanted identity is really the quintessential elicitor of shame is unwanted identity. And so one of the exercises we have people do is it's very important to me to be perceived as. It's very important for me to not be perceived as.

Adam Grant (43:58)

Right, because your shame triggers are the identities that other people might attach to you that you don't want any part of.

Brene Brown (44:06)

That's it. Yeah. So I think it's. Unwanted identity is a really big part of it. And I think once you get into that work, you're in therapy. Like, I mean, like, you're really trying to figure out, where do these identities come from? Like, I'll give you an example from my family. It was very shaming in my family growing up to be seen as high maintenance. Like, three girls and a boy. I'm the oldest sister. Go figure. We had to be like, baseball hat, no makeup. Let's go. If you had to. If you were on a car trip and you had to use the restroom, and you were like, can you pull over? And it was on the wrong side of the freeway, not the direction you're going. That's high maintenance. You know what I mean? Like, and so it took me 20 years to undo that.

Adam Grant (44:50)

Wow. And now you say I'm complex.

Brene Brown (44:54)

I am complex. But now, still, I mean, like, literally last weekend, Steve was like, we were driving from Houston to Austin. He's like, I'm gonna pull over at, you know, at the. At the truck stop. And I'm like, it's on the wrong side of it. He's like, okay, you sound like your dad, you know, and so those things. Unwanted identities are tough.

Adam Grant (45:17)

That's powerful.

Brene Brown (45:18)

Yeah.

Home Depot Advertiser (45:22)

Right now at the Home Depot. Shop spring Black Friday savings and get up to 40% off, plus up to $500 off select appliances from top brands like Samsung. Get a fridge with zero clearance hinges so the doors open fully, even in tighter spaces. In your kitchen and laundry. That saves you time. Like an all in one washer dryer that can run a full load in just 68 minutes. Shop Spring Black Friday savings, plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more at the Home Depot offer valid April 9 through April 29 US only C store online for details.

Depop Advertiser (45:52)

You tell yourself no one wants your college era band tees, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

Kerastase Advertiser (46:23)

With Sam's Club, you have the freedom to shop your own way. Curbside pickup delivered to your doorstep. Come in and grab it yourself. Yes, yes, yes. They've got plenty of options. Your call. Say yes to shopping the way you want. Join now@samsclub.com yes. And you must be 18 years or older to purchase a membership. And membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samclub.com yes, yes. And for details.

Adam Grant (46:51)

Okay, so this, this makes me think about imposter syndrome because in a strange way, there's an. It's not an unwanted identity, but it's an unearned identity or it's an unearned image. So how does shame relate to feeling like an imposter?

Brene Brown (47:10)

Not good enough. Just not good enough. Not smart enough. Not good enough. Not MBA'd enough. Not experienced enough. Not enough. And so when we talk about imposter syndrome, I always go to HBR articles, stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. February 2021 Rashika Tulshan, Jody Anbury like this article. I think it was the most downloaded article of 2021 on HBR. This is really important because. And let's talk about this. Let's get into it. I think imposter syndrome is real. I think people can feel like that for sure. And I think some leaders and cultures go out of their way to make sure people feel like imposters. Then it becomes very dangerous when people internalize that.

Adam Grant (48:02)

Yes.

Brene Brown (48:03)

Do you agree?

Adam Grant (48:04)

Yes. I'm so glad you made that distinction because a lot of the discussion I saw about that HBR article I thought missed something really critical, which is there's an MIT professor, Basima Tufik, who was one of our PhD students, and she's done these amazing studies. It's the most rigorous work on imposter syndrome, period, where she just surveys people on how often they feel those everyday imposter thoughts. I guess they're. Sorry, let me say that a little differently. She surveys people on how Often they feel like imposters, but it's not a syndrome. Right. It's not, I'm a fraud. It's, maybe I'm not as good as other people think I am. Maybe I'm not up to the challenge of this big role or promotion that I've gotten. And she finds that when people have those thoughts more often, they actually end up working more persistently. They end up learning more from other people. Because this is related to our discussion of metacognition. They know there's a gap between what other people expect of them and where they are currently. There's a sort of a confidence versus expectation gap. And they want to work hard and learn as much as they can to close the gap. And it becomes motivating to say, okay, I've got to live up to those expectations. That I think is a healthy way of dealing with those feelings. What you're describing is something very different, which is making you feel like you're not good enough and trying to use that as almost a weapon to induce shame and motivate you to become a more indentured servant of the organization.

Brene Brown (49:34)

Yes. It would be really interesting for. I would love to understand. I would love to see data. Maybe it already exists. I would love to see research on what are the variables that exist externally and within a person where the gap between confidence and competence leads to positive.

Adam Grant (50:02)

Yes.

Brene Brown (50:02)

And when does it get internalized and lead to shame, self doubt, and underperformance?

Adam Grant (50:11)

That's the question. That is the question.

Brene Brown (50:14)

Yeah. I just know that I can tell you, for me, early in my academic career, I had a lot of imposter syndrome, and it was engineered. I had some of my own, and I was aware of it, but some of it was very intentional to drive kind of fear in. And what it was really is to drive deference of tenured faculty.

Adam Grant (50:45)

Wow. Right? It's going to put you. We're going to put you in your place.

Brene Brown (50:49)

Yes.

Adam Grant (50:50)

Yeah. And I think it's interesting because when I think about that, you actually just resolved a puzzle for me, or you gave me an idea about how to resolve a puzzle, which is this article comes out and it talks about how women are constantly told they have imposter syndrome. Whenever I bring up imposter syndrome, people stereotype it as a problem that's more pronounced among women than men. But what I didn't get until just now is, but men don't internalize it the same way. I know when I've felt like an imposter, I just look at that and say, all right, I'm not there yet. Let me go and put on a growth mindset and try to figure it out. Whereas a lot of the women that I've worked with will be in the same situation and say, well, this must mean that I'm not capable.

Brene Brown (51:40)

And what happens when you're in a culture like today, where in the military, you've seen black men and women, brown women and men, women discharged from positions of duty when they're excellent military leaders, when you've seen black women systemically moved out of the workforce? So it's not just, wow, I'm really insecure, folks. It's also like, you've got cultural forces. Yeah. That are beating you down.

Adam Grant (52:13)

Yeah. No wonder you feel like an imposter. You've been told your whole life that you shouldn't be there.

Brene Brown (52:18)

Yeah. And then we've got, you know, an administration that is the ultimate act of, like, cronyism and unqualified. So, like. So I think. Yeah, I think I. The big takeaway for me is imposter syndrome. Shame. Micro macro lens. Look at both. Humiliation, you know, micro humiliation. We see it tied to violence, but look at humiliation from a macro. Look at the current administration in the U.S. humiliating every day for the last three weeks. Europe, our allies. Humiliation from a macro perspective. And I think this was Linda Hartling's thesis here, when she said, not only the most underappreciated force in international relations, it may be the missing link in the search for root causes of political instability. Like, how many times are you going to use your authority to tell people in other countries and of other cultures that they're less than, you know?

Adam Grant (53:25)

I mean, I was just gonna ask you what. What your biggest takeaway was, and you just nailed it.

Brene Brown (53:32)

I think my biggest takeaway on Shammey, on imposter syndrome.

Adam Grant (53:37)

It's possible not to laugh.

Brene Brown (53:38)

Yeah. Shami.

Adam Grant (53:39)

It takes all the wind out of the shame sales.

Brene Brown (53:41)

It does. Shami. Humiliation imposter syndrome is understand what they are and look at them from both a micro and a macro lens. You know, And I think all three of those have in common deep internalizing of things that don't belong to you. And I think a great final note on internalization is Giselle Pellicaut, the French woman who has, you know, when that court case came about, about her husband not only sexually assaulting her, but drugging her and inviting her 50 strangers to do the same.

Adam Grant (54:29)

Disgusting.

Brene Brown (54:30)

They said, you don't have to face them in court. You don't have to bring them in. And her response was so powerful. This is not my shame to carry. We will put this shame on the right people. This is not my shame to carry. So a huge externalization of that doesn't belong to me.

Adam Grant (54:53)

Yes.

Brene Brown (54:54)

Which is very powerful because it's so rare, because individual choices to not internalize are very difficult in a world where the social messages are so strong.

Adam Grant (55:07)

I think that's so important. I think my biggest aha. As I think about this conversation is it connects to something one of my mentors, Sue Ashford, often talks about, which is past hauntings. And when you talk about, like when you were. You were explaining to me why people continue to feel shame about these unwanted identities that, you know, as an adult, they could know better. That's not me. There's so many of them are related to our past hauntings.

Brene Brown (55:38)

Oh, yeah.

Adam Grant (55:39)

That, you know, the things we were shamed for as children, those got internalized. And I think that just that was a light bulb moment for me.

Brene Brown (55:49)

I mean, I mean, hugely. Yes. Past hauntings. And we didn't talk about this, but I think it's worth taking a minute because the past haunting brings up something for me about how shame shows up at work because we think of our personal and professional selves as different, but they're one integrated self. Past hauntings that are personal. And I love the framing that you're putting on this. Also show up at work in professional shame. And so two things I want to say. One, the number one shame trigger at work across the board has not changed in our research over 20 years. The fear of irrelevance. Think about what that means in today's workforce with AI.

Adam Grant (56:36)

Oh, my gosh. That's huge.

Brene Brown (56:37)

Right? The number one shame trigger at work is our fear of irrelevance.

Adam Grant (56:43)

I'm so glad you said that, Brene, because you just answered a question that's been in the back of my mind since our south by conversation.

Brene Brown (56:49)

What was the question?

Adam Grant (56:51)

It was about the shame based fear of being ordinary as the definition of narcissism. I thought that was profound. I haven't stopped thinking about it since you brought it up last month. And yet it dawned on me there are non narcissistic reasons to have a shame based fear of being ordinary.

Brene Brown (57:07)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (57:08)

Which is I want to make the best and highest use of my time. I want to make a unique contribution. I want to add value. And the threat of not being able to do that from AI, I can see how that could lead to pervasive shame.

Brene Brown (57:21)

And I think that's what we're up against right now, I don't even think we're. I don't even think AI is presenting as a skills issue as much as it's presenting as a trust and agency issue. So the fear of being irrelevant is one way that shame shows up at work. But let me just list some others back. Channeling comparison. Favoritism is a huge shame trigger for people at work.

Adam Grant (57:45)

Past haunting a parent favoring.

Brene Brown (57:48)

Oh my God. Or a teacher. I was doing work in a company that was switching from servers to cloud and they literally named them like old school and cool kids. And the top leaders would always, in public stuff, associate more with the cool kids, the cloud kids. And it was like people were calling in sick, people were leaving after 20 years. It's just favoritism. I'll tell you the other big shame trigger. Hidden gossiping, sarcasm. Tying people's self worth to their protectivity to try to get people to produce more teasing. These are all ways that shame shows up at work. And I always say if you're looking for shame at work, it's like looking for. It's like looking for a termite in a house. If you walk through a house and you don't see termites, you still have the inspection before you buy the house. Cause they could be behind the walls. And that's usually where shame lives in organizations. If you literally walk through an organization and you see shame, that would be like. That would be like looking at a house and seeing termites on the wall. This is not good. And I'm going to give you a great example of where this happens. Finance. Every quarter, they post everyone's numbers. Then the person with the highest number packs up all their stuff and pushes anyone out of the office that they want, you know, so empathy is the antidote. Understanding, I think your shame triggers your unwanted identities. Understanding the shame shields you use to self protect because they move you away, you know, from, I think, who you want to be. And then being able to share your story with someone who's heard the right to hear it. And having an empathic response back is so powerful because shame dissipates the moment you know you're not alone, that you can be seen and cared for. Shame is like, shit, I can't hold on.

Adam Grant (59:48)

The idea that shame shields are like a band aid instead of a cure is another big aha for me.

Brene Brown (59:53)

Oh my God, they're so.

Adam Grant (59:53)

I didn't realize that. But you're protecting yourself in the short run, but you're not actually putting yourself in a position to deal with the experience in the long run.

Brene Brown (60:01)

And my aha too is I've never been able to articulate quite as clearly as you have in two decades of talking about shame shields. They move you away from your values. So while they may offer temporary relief in the second that you fight back with shame or you people please or you disappear downstream, they cause more damage and more need for repair.

Adam Grant (60:22)

Well, you said it. You were saying when I do that it's not. But your friend really helped me. I'm not myself. Yeah, I was just reflecting it back to you.

Brene Brown (60:29)

I like the reflection. Well, this was an amazing conversation.

Adam Grant (60:32)

Yeah, it was.

Brene Brown (60:33)

And I'm excited about the next episode. See you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

Adam Grant (60:48)

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows@podcast.voxmedia.com ever spend

Brene Brown (60:55)

all day fishing and catch nothing?

Adam Grant (60:58)

That's what happens to hackers when Cisco Duo's on Watch every login, every device, every user protected. Cisco Duo fishing season is over. Learn more at duo. Com.