The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability"

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
Originally aired: July 23, 2026
Host: Brené Brown
Guest: Iko Bethea (Leadership Coach, Author of "Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable")

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Main Theme

This episode is a deep-dive exploration of Iko Bethea's "Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable" framework and its application to modern leadership. Brené Brown and Bethea unpack what it means to lead with both care and accountability, focusing on self-leadership, navigating power and identity in teams, and the essential role of curiosity and generosity. Across a lively conversation and powerful on-air coaching moments, they demonstrate how slowing down and honest self-inquiry lead to more equitable and courageous organizations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Brené & Iko’s Collaboration

[05:34]–[11:35]

• Iko Bethea joined Brené's "Dare to Lead" facilitator training and quickly stood out as a curious, grounded, and equity-minded leader.
• Bethea shares how Brené’s casual referencing of scholars like bell hooks and Audre Lorde immediately made minoritized participants feel seen:

  "What was magical, that I had not really seen somebody do before, a white person do before, was that Brené talked about...bell hooks, Audre Lorde...as if everybody in the room should know these people. And automatically she did something which, like, flipped the room almost."
  — Iko Bethea [08:01]

2. The Reality Gap Between Research & Practice

[11:35]–[14:06]

• Both wrestle with the difficulty of translating psychological safety research into lived, organizational reality.
• The critical missing conversation: power and identity.

  "We'll never build [psychological safety] without a conversation about power and identity. You just can't."
  — Iko Bethea [13:34]

3. Introducing Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable

[14:06]–[20:14]

• Anchored: Clarity on one’s core values.
• Aligned: Ensuring intentions and impacts match up.
• Accountable: Holding self and others responsible for bridging intention-impact gaps.
• The framework is rooted in making explicit the dynamics of power, identity, vulnerability, and systemic context.
• Practical example: Not just inviting every voice, but naming and navigating the barriers posed by systemic power (gender, race, tenure, etc.).

  "Vulnerability is not the same for everyone and what makes it different...is our identity and where power sits, and we can't ignore it."
  — Iko Bethea [16:36]

4. Why Curiosity and Generosity Are Essential

[24:26]–[28:16]

• The framework only succeeds with a posture of curiosity and generosity.
• Differentiates between "assuming positive intent" (which can bypass accountability) and "believing people are doing the best they can" (which allows for compassionate accountability).

  "Curiosity actually is a result of...care. Because to be really open and curious about something somebody's saying...I'm listening for connection."
  — Iko Bethea [28:18]

5. Accountability Without Shame

[28:16]–[32:41]

• True accountability isn't punitive or shaming; it's done with care and curiosity.

• Inquiry and dialogue (versus accusation) helps people own and learn from their impact.

• Memorable quote:

  "A lot of times we think with words like empathy and generosity, it means that I can't hold somebody accountable, but they're not mutually exclusive."
  — Iko Bethea [28:55]

6. The Three Levels of Listening

[36:07]–[38:21]

• Channel 1: Listening to hear.
• Channel 2: Listening to understand.
• Channel 3: Listening for connection (the goal in coaching/leadership).
• When a leader shifts to "listening for connection," everything changes—vocabulary, pausing, body language, emotional tone.

7. Practical On-Air Coaching: Slowing Down & Self-Regulation

[39:00]–[46:00]

• Through a real-time example, Iko coaches Brené through a difficult conversation she'd like to have.
• Highlights:
  • The importance of understanding and naming emotions and somatic responses.
  • Challenging the "false sense of urgency" that drives reactive (versus values-aligned) decisions.

  “We will go through that because we do know that one of the things we fall into is false sense of urgency.”
  — Iko Bethea [44:02]

8. Mastering the Real Machine: The Self

[45:59]–[48:40]

• Brené and Iko agree: learning to lead, regulate, and embody oneself is much more complex (and more important) than any technical or AI system.

  "The thing that is the hardest is managing this machine here...The most complicated thing to lead is yourself."
  — Iko Bethea [46:00]

9. Slowness and the Power of the Pause

[48:52]–[53:07]

• The urgency culture in organizations is at odds with the reflective, self-inquiry required for real change.
• Leaders are the "metronome" for their teams' pace.
• Practicing slowness creates room for deeper dialogue, safety, and aligned decisions.

10. Values Work: Why Fragmenting the Self Breeds Burnout

[55:33]–[60:15]

• The exercise of narrowing down to two core values is vital—too many values dilute integrity.
• Many leaders ask, "Should I choose work or personal values?"—a sign of learned self-fragmentation.

  "The bigger that gap is between who you are, and show up at work as and at home, the more you're going to be in the doldrums and it contributes to the burnout."
  — Iko Bethea [57:42]

11. Self-Leadership, Courage, and the Long Way Around

[62:13]–[62:50]

• True self-leadership means no shortcuts. Most of us want the fix, the “script,” or external validation, but lasting transformation requires doing the “long way around”—slowing down, being present with discomfort, and listening for possibility.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On attribution and equity:

  "Attribution is really, to me, very important."
  — Brené Brown [11:35]

• Insight on the cost of inaction:

  "Privileging comfort over winning is not going to work in this environment."
  — Brené Brown [17:20]

• On the necessity of power awareness:

  "Making sure that you're naming that you're aware of what the different variables are for folks and vulnerabilities. Because we know that vulnerability is not the same for everyone...it's also our identity and where power sits."
  — Iko Bethea [16:36]

• Humor and humility:

  "Yeah, I'm like, fuck people this week, just to be honest with you. But it's not a healthy place to work from."
  — Brené Brown [25:39]

• Coaching lived and embodied:

  "You are so embodied in this work that it's so scary to sit across from you when you're in it."
  — Brené Brown [45:31]

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Important Timestamps

• [05:34] – How Brené and Iko met: "Dare to Lead" facilitation stories.
• [08:01] – Flipping the room for equity, referencing lived expertise.
• [13:34] – Missing link in psychological safety: power and identity.
• [16:36] – Practical lessons on power, identity, and fostering safety.
• [24:26] – Curiosity, generosity, and assumptions about positive intent.
• [28:16] – What accountability really means (not punitive).
• [36:07] – The three levels of listening.
• [41:47] – Coaching: working through tough conversations and somatic signals.
• [46:00] – The body's complexity vs. AI; self-leadership.
• [53:07] – Organizational urgency, nervous system recalibration.
• [57:42] – Why bifurcating self between work and home leads to burnout.

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Tone

Dynamic, candid, and compassionate. Both speakers blend rigorous inquiry with personal storytelling and humor. There’s a strong undercurrent of empathy, resilience, and a commitment to transformative leadership, even (and especially) when it’s uncomfortable.

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Episode Takeaways

• Psychological safety and true accountability are impossible without acknowledging and navigating power and identity.
• Anchored, Aligned, Accountable leadership is rooted in self-awareness, embodied presence, and an unwavering commitment to curiosity and generosity.
• The most challenging and important system to manage is oneself—transformative leadership begins with self-leadership.
• Leaders and organizations must challenge urgency culture and create space to slow down, reflect, and align with core values.
• It's imperative to close the gap between professional and personal selves—a unified, values-driven presence is the antidote to burnout and fragmentation.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to lead with rigor, heart, and equity—whether in the C-suite, in nonprofit work, or in personal relationships.

Transcript

[Brené Brown]

This episode is a lesson in vulnerability. It's an opportunity to see what lightning in a bottle looks like and feels like. And it's a very exciting opportunity for Adam and I to introduce you to Ikopathia. So I'll start here. Every now and then on stage, when you're interviewing someone, you get this sense that the people in the audience are just. You could hear a pin drop. That's what happened earlier this year when I was interviewing Iko Bethea, one of the most respected senior leadership coaches in the country. I was interviewing Aiko at the Better Uplift conference. And I was talking to Aiko about her new book, Anchored, Aligned and Accountable, which I'll tell you about in a second. And we basically got into a real life, real time role play while she was coaching me through a leadership conflict that was tearing me up at the time. And when our session at the conference was over, half the audience was in tears and the other half were lining up to talk to ico, I think, about their, about their conflicts and leadership. But Ikobothia is a friend and mentor. She is an absolute partner for me in the DARE to Lead work. She's one of the most incredible coaches and facilitators that I've ever had the privilege to work with. She has just authored a new book called Anchored, Aligned and Accountable, and she introduces a framework that focuses on why self leadership is so critical in today's complex operating environment.

[Iko Bethea]

Environment.

[Brené Brown]

In our conversation, we dig in to the difference between assuming positive intent and believing people that are believing that people are doing the absolute best they can and holding people accountable. Aiko teaches me about this powerful coaching practice of three levels of listening. And she talks about how our bodies and minds are the real machines that we need to master before we worry about AI or machine learning or anything else. I think at a time when many of us are struggling to find ourselves and to find each other, her Anchored, Aligned, Accountable framework really offers a clear, practical path to building trust and connection as leaders, as partners, as friends, and I will say as parents. I use it with this framework with my kids. I'm so proud to say that her framework has become deeply integrated into the DARE to Lead work and transformation work we do with organizations around the world. So welcome to this masterclass in coaching. It's a real opportunity to learn. I was gonna say at my expense, but no, it's okay. I was worn out by the time it was over. I went back to my hotel room, into the conference, hotel room, had a little bit of a good cry. An equally powerful laugh and then took a nap. And just a reminder, hiatus ends. This is the last hiatus podcast and then we're back next week with you can hear. I think you can hear me smiling with a new podcast where we are joined by Roger Bennett, one of my favorite people in to talk about lessons on love, laughter and what the World cup meant to the world. So I'm glad you're with us. Thanks for hanging in during our hiatus and we're excited to be back with you. Support for the show comes from ServiceNow. AI is moving fast across the enterprise, but without visibility, it's just chaos. Different tools, different models, different teams using AI in completely different ways. ServiceNow turns the chaos into control. With the AI control tower, you see all your AI across the business in one place, what it's doing, what it's done and what it's about to do. So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com Monday.com AI agents took over

[Iko Bethea]

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[Brené Brown]

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[Iko Bethea]

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[Brené Brown]

Welcome to the Curiosity Shop, a show from the Vox Media podcast network.

[Iko Bethea]

Hi Aiko. Hey.

[Brené Brown]

I cannot tell y' all how excited I am to be here with my friend. Teaching partner, facilitation partner, co conspirator. What other words would you use?

[Iko Bethea]

All the things.

[Brené Brown]

All the things to talk about. And I think everybody got a copy. Anchored, aligned and accountable.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

I thought it would be fun to tell you a little bit about our relationship and how we met to start there. So we were doing a dare to lead facilitation training and jump in and correct me if I get this history wrong because you know how history is.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes. Yes.

[Brené Brown]

Subjective.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yes.

[Brené Brown]

And one of our senior facilitators reached out to me and said, if you can get Iko Bathea to come to one of your trainings, it would be amazing. We worked together at the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and she is such a badass. You really want her in this community, and even if she doesn't want to be in the community, you want her at least at a training. And I was like, okay, okay. So we reached out and you said, yes, yes. What did you think?

[Iko Bethea]

I was excited. I didn't know what to expect, so I was super excited. Yeah, I was just ready to learn. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

That was apparent when she got there. So basically, for three intense days, these trainings are. These facilitation accreditations are super intense. I lead them. It's a lot of uncomfortable learning and unlearning. And Iko was like the magnet in the room. Someone would share something, and my instinct would be like, oh, hell no. That is not the way you were gonna do this. And I would just be getting ready to form those words. And Aiko would say, I'm curious. Tell me more about what you're thinking. And I'm like, yeah, I'm curious too. And that person would share at the end of. Was a problematic thought, but she's like, I really appreciate you. So honestly, I was like, yeah, me too. I too. Whatever she said.

[Iko Bethea]

And then I think something I would want to share too, because I can be a skeptic. And if many of you know my background, you know that I'm probably not the most. I have not always been the most open person all the time. So one of the things that Brene did in this training, which is very unique, I think many of you might be able to relate to, is that in the training, I think the composition is when you enter a room, if you're like the. If there are not a lot of women there, you probably automatically notice how many women are there. Right. And you know where they are, what exit, where to go. If you're any kind of the only anything, you recognize the other people who are like you.

[Advertiser Voice]

Right.

[Iko Bethea]

Right off. So one of the things it was probably like, what, four or five brown people in this room of I don't know how many people. 250 or 150 or something. And what was magical, that I had not really seen somebody do before, a white person do before, was that Bernay talked about within the first. This was about her work, her dare to lead work, and was throwing out the names like bell hooks, Audre Lorde, when they were saying these, as if everybody in the room should Know these people. And automatically she did something which, like, flipped the room almost. Where if you were one of the only or others, you felt like this was your room. And I don't know if you know the power in being able to do that, where people who are not usually seen all of a sudden in a room of that many people feel like, I belong here. And so when we did meet, like, during a break, I said, was there, like some pre reading or something I missed? Because I don't know if everybody here knows who bell hooks and Audre Lorde is, and you're kind of surprised or what have you. But the idea that all of these other voices and people you brought into the room as a part of your regular vocabulary and speaking of them as they are teachers and they are people who taught you, it flipped the room. And that is not an easy thing to do, is to create equity into a room where just some identity. Not because something weird is happening. Because sometimes when you walk into a room, you automatically know that you might be at a deficit and not a story you're telling yourself, because that's how rooms work. Sometimes we're not speaking about things, and you're able to flip the room without even doing. I don't know. I don't think you were doing it intentionally because you kind of were a little bit surprised when we talked about it. But that power of being able to do that, and if you do it in a way that's almost like a second nature, is what we need more of what people should be able to do. And that's what stood out for me. And I thought, oh, she's kind of dope. She didn't even do that on purpose. It wasn't a, oh, this is Brene Brown. It was like, damn, this woman really flipped the room. Yeah. So that's what stood out for me.

[Advertiser Voice]

Wow.

[Iko Bethea]

I don't know if I ever told you that. No, I thought that was important to say. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

I was scared about what was coming.

[Iko Bethea]

She's like, what's she really gonna say? I was wondering why you're frozen for a minute, like, what's happening? Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. I wouldn't have my career without, to be honest with you, just very specifically the black female mentors and teachers and scholars. That shaped my thinking. Yeah. So I. So maybe what I should do better. I'm taking the feedback from that. Maybe what I should do better, which I can not do well sometimes, is make assumptions about bell hooks and stop capitalizing her first and last name. She doesn't do that. I should invite people more into the scholarship that framed my life, maybe.

[Iko Bethea]

And you do that. And even if any of you have strong ground, even naming people as teachers who are with us now and being able to say that I'm happy to be amongst those folks too, but. And always being so mindful of attribution,

[Brené Brown]

because I take attribution very seriously.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

I have to say that's tough in our business.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes.

[Brené Brown]

I've already seen two LinkedIn posts that started with, I have a really good idea for building psychological safety. We should get anchored, aligned and accountable. I was like, yeah, dude.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

I said, oh, I agree. Iko's work has really changed me. That's ikogithea A ik. You know, like, so attribution is really, to me, very important. Yeah.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So we became friends and we spent a lot of time kind of learning together, challenging each other, laughing inappropriately. Inappropriately. And we got into really hard conversations about the gap between great research and our experiences on the ground trying to do what that research said. Psychological safety is a great example of that important research, validated, huge contribution. We are both embedded deeply. She is a senior Dare to Lead coach and a senior Dare to Lead facilitator. When I say senior, I would say if we're involved deeply with a company, she's often the coach for the CEO or someone in the C suite. As part of our transformations, she's doing the facilitation of the senior leaders going through the Dare to Lead curriculum. And so we're embedded together and our conversations often sound like, damn, this is a good idea. This is tough when you're in front of people. And so we one day in Houston, eating seafood from Good Company, we asked, we were like, is it going to be possible to actually build psychological safety the way that the majority of companies are doing it right now? Which I'm not sure or unsure whether Amy intended this, but Aiko was like, we'll never build it without a conversation about power and identity. You just can't. And I said, I agree. I've never seen it done. And I said, maybe this is something that we'll struggle with the rest of our careers. And then the next thing I know, I'm talking to her. She goes, I have a framework. I was like, what do you mean? And she said, I have a framework. I think we can do it. And I was like. And she said, I think people need to be anchored in their values, be very clear about what they are, get anchored in their values, make sure intention and impact are aligned and Create teams where people are accountable for their anchoring and their values and accountable for the gap between intention and impact. I think we need anchored, aligned and accountable cultures because we, we went back and forth a lot right on Safe

[Iko Bethea]

Spaces and just about why safe spaces don't work, why Brave spaces don't work, why psychological safety could work better. And it's hard to create equity into a room when you're not acknowledging where power sits. Right? And power isn't just about your label as you're the CEO of a company. Like there are other ways that power shows up. Even if you're the team that has the largest budget, you have longer tenure. But we also know power shows up just in the systems we navigate. In terms of gender, some faith based, what's your first language? Do you have an accent or not? The size of your body, how attractive you're considered to be, your race, all these things have signposts and impacts. In terms of power, how do you tell somebody that you're going to be psychologically safe here? Because I'm going to invite you to tell the truth because the truth is really important and we really need it. Without understanding that the implications of telling the truth is also connected to how much power you're perceived to have. Or if you're somebody who automatically has a system, exercises power over you based on your identity by default. Because all of a sudden, just because you go into the doors of Acme company, it doesn't mean you're divorced from society. Right? All those things are with you if you're a mom. And even if you're at a very high level in organization, it feels different if you have to leave early to go and do something with your kid or your kid is sick than it does if you're a parent who's a male gender male identifying and you say, I have to go take care of something at home. One gets, ooh, ah, that's so great. Another one's like, uh, again. And we know all of these things follow us because we're in a system. So if I don't name it and I don't say, hey, Beth, I notice X, Y and Z. I want to hear your voice more. I know that these things may be difficult for you to say because of what the room is made up, but I want to hear your voice and super important. And if you feel like there's a limitation or a barrier, let me know and we can figure it out or don't have Beth fix it and say, figure it out. I'm going to tell the whole room, I want to hear everybody's voice. That means I want to hear Bob's voice, I want to hear Beth's voice. I want to make sure that we are creating the space for that. I mean, it puts a little bit of a warning out in the air of, we're all here together. And this is what I need from all of you. And when you see that being breached, what does accountability look like to hold that space and. And to keep that fidelity to that commitment that you made? Because you can say it all day. Right. But if you're actually not holding yourself and the space accountable was a matter that you said it. Because Beth is still going to be ridiculed or not get that promotion because she dared to say X, Y and Z. So there is accountability for the person who does hold the space, which has a lot to do with power. That may not even be the person in front of the room. Right. It may be the person who has the most influence even outside of the room. But making sure that you're naming that you're aware of what the different variables are for folks and vulnerabilities. Because we know that vulnerability is not the same for everyone and what makes it different. It is in our landscape and other lived experiences, but it's also our identity and where power sits, and we can't ignore it.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. I have to say that I have never seen a company come successfully through a transformation if they're trying to transform from playing not to lose to playing to win. I've never seen a company successfully do that without honest conversations about power. And the CEOs who are fearless about doing that are the ones who are putting winning ahead of discomfort. Privileging comfort over winning is not going to work in this environment. I just have to go back to this because I'm such a space girl. But if you look at Artemis and you look at those pictures like I put up on LinkedIn, a picture of them hugging and said, we're crying and cheering. Because this is what it looks like when smart, kind people from different lived experiences come together to face challenges together. We need every voice in the room. We need every different lived experience in the room. And so I don't think without a conversation about power and identity, that happens.

[Iko Bethea]

That's right. That's right. And it works in so many ways. Like, we have mutual colleagues who are running huge companies, and we know folks who are women over huge companies. And even that part about them being able to own and say, hey, there's some spaces that are going to be barriers against me because I'm a woman in this field. And for them to say that, what does that mean when that person names that? That means that they're not only willing to be vulnerable enough to name what we already know to be true instead of acting like it doesn't exist and doubling down, but you're also inviting and recruiting people to do their part to support your success and to not be able to look away and act like they don't know that this deficit exists, not because I'm any way less, but because of what a system is and that helps them. And you look them dead in the eye that well. So I want you to know this so you can't walk around like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't see that happen. But for me to be able to say, hey, I know it's going to be different for me because I may be the only brown person in the room, I may be the only first gen person in the room. I'm the only person who doesn't have this or that. And I want to name that. Doesn't mean I'm saying I'm any less, but I need you all to know it so that people can't act like they don't know the trapdoor that's always existing there. Because sometimes you do need people to be able to step into the fold and into the gap so that whenever that impact happens, they can't say, I didn't know that's what would have happened. Or they're just so much more vigilant of holding the space. It's not just holding the space in service to you, but holding the space so that it can be the best that it can be so that it can be impactful and so that we are all awake at the will. You can't just walk away and totally exonerate yourself from accountability because you can say you didn't know. I'm naming it now because I'm naming how I know I'm walking into this room and what could possibly happen so that you're awake and on the will too. At the will, too. We all need to hold it because we all want to have a certain impact.

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[Brené Brown]

1, 2, 3.

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[Iko Bethea]

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[Iko Bethea]

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[Brené Brown]

I love the metaphor. The awaken at the wheel. Amy Webb, the futurist who studies AI and technology. When we were talking last year, I said, you know, in her future predictions about AI and technology, I mean, this is a person at south by Southwest. They line up at 2 o' clock in the morning to get into her session because her futureing and her strategic futureing is so accurate, especially around technology. And I said, what is happening right now? And she said, we have hit a huge, dangerous piece of ice. And what people don't know is that if you weren't raised where there's a lot of ice, you flame on the brake and steer out of the ice, which really is deadly with AI and what's coming, keep your foot off the brake, use the gas and steer into the ice. Steer into the slide. And when you say we need everybody's hands on the wheel, everybody awake and accountable. We are steering into the ice right now because of the level of uncertainty and complexity I think in the world. We need everybody there. And without naming what's happening in rooms around power differentials and identity, we are excluding hands on the wheel at a very fraught time. Okay, I have some questions. So Aiko gives me her framework. I'm like, oh God, I think this is going to work. And now we're teaching it as part of Dare to Lead. So thank you for letting us do that.

[Iko Bethea]

Thankful that you embraced it.

[Brené Brown]

No, it's huge. I got a chance to use it the night that she told it to me with one of my kids. I have two Gen Z kids in their 20s adulting hard. It's exhausting for Me. Because we know how the story ends. Right. You know, perspective is a function of experience, but you can't do that is what my therapist tells me. So I had a call from one of my kids who said, I'm in this real dilemma with my roommate, and I'm so pissed off, I don't know what to do. And I was like, anchored, aligned, accountable. Anchored, aligned, accountable. And I said this to my roommate, and he got really pissed off, but that's not what I meant. And I said, let's go through this new framework. And we spent 20 minutes going through the new framework. And he was like, I don't think I'm taking accountability for how my stuff is landing. I was like, Ikopathia 2026. It's been so helpful for me, personally and professionally. Would you agree or disagree? These are actual questions that we have not rehearsed.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay. We haven't rehearsed anything, y'.

[Advertiser Voice]

All.

[Brené Brown]

So, yeah. That your whole framework is driven by curiosity and generosity.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes. So it actually only works with those components. And a couple of things. I have an assumption. So when we're talking about generosity, how do you define generosity? You have a definition. Oh, I have a Generosity.

[Brené Brown]

I was like, oh, generosity. We always say, what's the. It's the assumption of positive intent. So we talk about generosity as part of big. What boundaries need to be in place to be in my integrity. To make positive assumptions about your behaviors and your actions and your thoughts. So for me, it's the assumption of generosity.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes. And you have a more specific definition you use often, which is this idea of that people are doing the best that they can.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, that one. Yeah.

[Iko Bethea]

So one of the things I want to say is about is the difference and a nuance in saying that I believe that people are doing the best that they can versus saying I'm assuming good intentions.

[Brené Brown]

Yes. I do think. Yeah, I'm not feeling like that this week. That's why it didn't come to me.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. I'm like, fuck people this week, just to be honest with you. But it's not a healthy place to work from. It is the hardest part of my research that confronts me every day is working. You're so good at it. It's irritating

[Iko Bethea]

on some days. On my good days. But this idea of knowing that. Believing that people are doing the best they can with what they've got. Yes. With what they've got in the minute,

[Brené Brown]

and that it's not that they're not capable of doing things better or learning, but to assume that people are doing the best they can. I just want to give you a quick primer on how that came up. I called bullshit on that. I did not believe that people were doing the best they can. I spent a year doing a qualitative study on who believes that and who doesn't. And basically, just from a research perspective, the assholes do not believe people are doing the best they can. And generous, grace giving people believe that people are doing the best they can. And my favorite question actually came from my husband where I said, do you believe people are doing the best they can? And this is after I came home from a focus group of people in prison who were mostly in recovery, who was like, yeah, I think people are doing the best. I think I'm doing the best I can with what I got right now. And I was like, do you believe it? And Steve was like, I'm not sure, but my life is better when I assume people are doing the best they can.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes. Yes. So what? Yes. So I want to say there's a nuance there about why that's different between a assuming best intent.

[Brené Brown]

Yes. Say it.

[Iko Bethea]

So when I am assuming best intent, are you ever going to a meeting and they say, like, with the norms, what we're going to do is we're going to assume everybody's best intention about everybody. Now, there's a power play in that because if someone says something crazy, you know, something really off, like Anna says something that's really off, and that's an affront. If I have to default to I'm assuming best intent, she has the best intention. Now, I don't really hold her accountable for what she said. Instead, I swallow whatever it is that I noticed that impacted me because the first thing you say, wait a minute, Aiko, let's just assume that Anna's doing. She's got the best intentions. She's doing, you know, it's very different from saying she's doing the best she can right now, because now I have permission to actually hold her accountable.

[Brené Brown]

God, say it again.

[Iko Bethea]

And then the curiosity part comes into play. Because part of holding people accountable, how many of you, when you hear the word accountable, you think, yes, accountability, or when you hear accountable, you think that's scary and about to be put on a pip.

[Brené Brown]

I'm on the first one, I saw

[Iko Bethea]

a lot of hits on that. On that second one, because accountability sounds scary because the way we do it and exercise or have been learned and conditioned to do is that it feels punitive. Yeah, there's going to be shaming et cetera. So the accountability is. Some accountability can be done with generosity. And that's why those two go together. And with that, by my just being curious and not assuming best intentions, but my being curious and asking Anna, hey, when you said that, what was it that you meant? Tell me a little bit more, because I feel like I didn't understand that by having Anna go back and replay and think about what the hell did I mean when I said that, that's holding her accountable in a way that's really out of curiosity so that she can actually think about it. And she's like, oh, okay, well, this is what I think I meant. And then I can say, oh, okay, well, this is how it landed. Because this is what this word means for us, blah, blah. But I understand what you meant. So now I get to share with her. I don't say, you know, that thing that you said, it was blah, blah, blah, blah, where you're not necessarily assuming best intent. But I'm also not thinking she's doing the best she can right now. I'm not being curious. And curiosity actually is a result of. Reflects care. Because to be really open and curious about something somebody's saying. Now I'm a. I'm a recovering attorney, litigation attorney. So I had to learn to ask questions in a way that weren't a yes or no. Because you're trained. Don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to. But for me to be fully open and curious, it feels really different. Because now I'm listening for connection. Now I'm listening to really know that I don't know what she meant. Totally different person for me. And now I'm going to be open to what Anna actually says. And I'm like, oh, okay, I get it. And now we're actually in greater connection because I gave the gift of this critical care of curiosity. I say curiosity is care because you take time to listen, right? You have to take a beat. You have to suspend the stories that you're telling yourself. You have to be open. You have to have a degree of emotional agility to be able to do that, especially if in some way I was activated or landed in a certain way. Curiosity is careful and generosity. Believing somebody's doing the best they can doesn't mean I'm not going to hold them accountable. A lot of times we think with words like empathy and generosity, it means that I can't hold somebody accountable, but they're not mutually exclusive and the way of how to carry them both. So that accountability is not a scary thing. It's actually a thing that we do to grow. I'm getting smarter. And I also am having greater connection with Anna. And one of the things with Brene and I, when people are asking about even our friendship and this idea of don't people get it wrong sometimes? Don't they not blah, blah. My way of weighing it with somebody is are they willing to learn in the moment and listen and give me the care of being curious. And Brene's probably one of the most curious people I know where she's like, huh, okay. But she's also going to call bullshit and say, I don't think I agree. Like, I don't want you to fold like a folding chair. I want you to actually bring some rigor to it so that I can understand you better. And in that it's not always going to be roses. Right. Because if I understand that somebody has this value that is like the antithesis of mine, I might realize I need to reset boundaries. I'm not just going to say, oh, we were really curious and she said some shit. She said some stuff that toe check.

[Brené Brown]

I mean, I don't even know why you're crying because you're. I'm going to win that thing. So, yeah, I just do. I'm not recognizing you. You with those language shifts, but go ahead.

[Iko Bethea]

We're trying not to have any Morse code going on sometime, but lawyer. So it's really great to understand somebody better and to be in connection versus them having to cover or hide or for me to just feel like I have to take whatever somebody's serving me. But I want to at least be clear on what are they serving me and is it a story I'm telling myself and how do we hold this relationship? So, yes, the framework presumes generosity and curiosity, which require emotional agility. They require the ability for you to slow down. They require you to be curious about the other person. They require you to self interrogate. And those aren't things that are easy to do. And we're woefully under skilled at that.

[Brené Brown]

You know what I think is.

[Iko Bethea]

So

[Brené Brown]

yeah, sometimes when I just listen to you talk, I just want to cry. You're really. You've been really important to me. Yeah, I get real mad real fast. And you can get real mad real fast too. But I think this idea of curiosity and generosity as acts of care and acts of connection that also don't exist without accountability is kind of the heart of how I experience you as a person. It's how I experience you professionally as a coach and a facilitator. And it's the heart of this. I want to say it one more time because you and I talk a lot about. When talking about woefully unskilled, one of the things that really came out in strong ground, which I think people struggle with the most right now, not one of the things is paradox and the ability to hold the tension of seemingly opposite things. But I think you are just like a bull in a paradox china shop. Like, you're not a. You don't really care whether people do it well or not. You're like, look, you got to understand curiosity, generosity, or care. And care does not exist without accountability. Like, think about that for a minute. Like, that is. That's hard work. When you think about when you said woefully underskilled, which I really like that framing, I'll be using that. I'll give you a quarter every time I say it because it's so nice compared to, like, we suck ass at this, but woefully under skilled. Give me a yes or no or weigh in any way you want on the following. Self awareness. Is that one of the woefully under skilled things that are required?

[Iko Bethea]

Absolutely.

[Brené Brown]

Emotional regulation?

[Iko Bethea]

Absolutely.

[Brené Brown]

Nervous system management.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes.

[Brené Brown]

Mindfulness?

[Iko Bethea]

Yes.

[Brené Brown]

Anything else that I'm missing? Like, these are hard. These are big skills. Right.

[Iko Bethea]

I think in practicing all of those, the ability, they all require the ability to pause. And when you're talking about with Amy Webb and what she was saying, like the. With it, like the more complex we get, the more complexity there is in society, the higher the requirement is for us to pause. And the only way that you can move from reactivity to responsiveness is to have self awareness. The only way you can have self awareness is to understand how your body responds to things, which is the nervous system regulation. It's the somatics aspect of. Is what your breath is telling you. It's where you sweat. It is also then this cognitive part of who is this person to me? And one of the things I talk about in the book is the different levels of listening. So most people understand, like listening to hear.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, gosh. Okay. If you're a note taker, warm it up. Like, get your pen ready. Is this where you're going to talk about third?

[Iko Bethea]

Yes.

[Brené Brown]

Okay.

[Iko Bethea]

This is in your book, y'. All.

[Brené Brown]

This is wild.

[Iko Bethea]

But we have the channel one, which is like the listening to hear. Right. We have channel two, which is listening to understand, but channel three is very different and it's listening for connection. Because what I notice in coaching and facilitation is that woofly prep the person to think about how do you want it to be? Not like the outcome, but how do I want it to be for me and Anna, I want to still be in relationship with Anna. I don't want to hurt her. I want to understand her. Like this idea of listening for connection. What I notice is that people have a whole different choice of vocabulary words they use when they're thinking about connection. Some things I'm not going to say to somebody when I'm thinking are words I'm not going to use. The eye contact is longer, the pausing is more substantial because I'm creating space for that person to enter. I'm no longer centered on me, but I'm centered on that person. Which means everything changes about the energy and the conversation. So when you said the degree of self awareness, my mindfulness changes, that almost comes in right away. And if you're in a moment where I've got two teenage boys where you're not like, ugh. And if I look at them, I'm looking at them like when they were babies are young and I'm that nourishment and that care, my voice, everything about how I hold them in the conversation changes. And so this idea of the care that you give people when you're listening for connection changes everything. And I don't think I've ever seen it not shift. The way a leader or person shows up or a person talks to their, you know, partner or spouse. And I say, well, we're going to go to channel three listening. It's almost like you see their whole body shift now. It's not like I have to win. I need to know, how am I going to respond? They're not going to get up on me. All the bullshit that I name in the book. And now you're just with that person and you're being who you really hope to be in your most aspirational form.

[Brené Brown]

Isn't that good? I mean, let's just. Let's just pause like, yeah, okay. So when I've called you before and I've said, I mean, I have to have this really hard conversation with someone we both know and can we talk about it for a minute? You would say, what?

[Iko Bethea]

How do you want it to be?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, I was like, I want to fricking win is what happens. I want to win. I want to be understood. I want full disclosure from the other person about their sucking choices.

[Iko Bethea]

And then you say, what and then I say, how do you want it to be with that person? So it's never really about the issue, right?

[Brené Brown]

Not really.

[Iko Bethea]

It's about the issue. Anybody who's a coach knows that it's never the issue. It's all these other things. And when you go back to, well, how do you want to be? So you ask the person. It wouldn't have been applied in this case with the idea of, like, how do you want to be as a leader? And if they keep talking about these transactional things, I want to be the best. We want to have the highest production and blah, blah, blah, blah. How do you want to be?

[Brené Brown]

So I would say to you, I want to be clear, kind, and I don't need to be liked, but I want to be clear and kind. Yeah.

[Iko Bethea]

So I would ask you, okay, how do you feel right now as you're talking about it?

[Brené Brown]

Just.

[Iko Bethea]

I want you to go to the issue that's at hand. How do you feel when you think about that issue?

[Brené Brown]

I don't wanna talk about how I feel. Just tell me what to say.

[Iko Bethea]

What I will say may be really different from what you're gonna say.

[Brené Brown]

This is exactly what she does. Is this helpful? Yeah. So I don't wanna talk about how I feel. Just. Could you just. Could you text me what to say

[Iko Bethea]

and I'll say, yeah, let's take a beat and let's get on the phone right now. Because what I say is not going to necessarily. It's not my relationship.

[Brené Brown]

I don't care about the relationship. I just need to know what to say.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay. And I think that you know exactly what to say, but let's walk through it.

[Brené Brown]

Why do you think you.

[Iko Bethea]

I know what to say because I have unconditional positive regard for you. And I know that you are unconditionally resourceful.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Then I just start crying usually. I don't know. Yeah. So this is really one of the things that I just have to like. You know, like when you're in a role play and you have to pause it when you're facilitating to tell the room what's happening. Like, one of the things that Aiko has taught me the most of that's in this book that is I can never unsee and I'm really not good at, but I'm working on it, is transformation and change requires expansiveness. You changed me with that. And even right now, what you're doing is. I'm just trying to push you faster. Just tell me what to say. That's great. I don't need. I mean, my body's like. But who cares?

[Iko Bethea]

Just.

[Brené Brown]

Can you tell me what to say? Look at her right now. She is not engaging. She's going like this. What are you doing? What's happening?

[Iko Bethea]

So I do. Can we go back to the scenario? Cause I want to. Yeah, I do want to go back to that. And I'll tell you why afterwards, when you think about. Let's just call this person Beth. This conversation you want to have with Beth.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Iko Bethea]

And the thing that happened. Yeah, I want you to go back to that. How did you feel in the moment? How. When it happened?

[Brené Brown]

What I would probably say is pissed off.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay. Yeah, pissed off. And how did it feel? Was your heart beating fast? What was going on?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, I mean, I get like. My armpits were tingling. My heart was beating fast. I couldn't swallow. I was getting tunnel vision.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah, I know that was hard. I wanted to take a beat. And let's think about. How do you want to feel when you're with Beth? When you're talking to Beth?

[Brené Brown]

I don't think I can do this without crying. She's not moved. She's not laughing at my jokes. She's just not. She's like. Yeah, she's just. She's not moving. And what's bouncing off of her onto me is. I'm not gonna do this with you. I'm asking you a question. So how do I wanna feel with Beth? Like, ideally, like, what would be my vision, my pie in the sky? I wanna be calm. I want to be thoughtful. I want to work from a hypothesis of generosity. I want to be generous, but I also need to be clear. And I want to hold someone accountable in a way that facilitates change, not fear. That's probably what I really would like the most.

[Advertiser Voice]

Okay.

[Iko Bethea]

And you believe you can do both?

[Brené Brown]

I'm not sure. Not right now.

[Iko Bethea]

So what does it take for you to get to the place where you'd be able to.

[Brené Brown]

Honestly, I'm gonna need to work out.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay.

[Brené Brown]

I'm gonna need. I'm gonna need to work out. I'm gonna need to go walking or play pickleball or I'm gonna need to sweat.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay.

[Brené Brown]

And move my body.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay.

[Brené Brown]

I'm not gonna be able to do it right now.

[Iko Bethea]

Okay. It's good you know yourself well, what you need.

[Brené Brown]

Yes, I do know myself well. But I'm feeling time pressure to do this right now while I'm mad.

[Iko Bethea]

And I would ask you about, what's the driver behind that time pressure. We will go through that because we do know that one of the things we fall into is false sense of urgency. So I would ask you about what

[Brené Brown]

is the driver behind it? This is the hardest stuff you've ever said to me in our friendship is my false sense of urgency. I want to get out from underneath these feelings that I'm having right now. So what's driving? I'm telling you what you taught me before. I would have said, I don't know. I just need to do it right now because I'm coming out of my skin. I think what I've learned from you is probably firstborn daughter with undiagnosed anxiety kind of things. And I feel like I'm coming out of my skin. And if I do it now, I can be calm again.

[Iko Bethea]

Mm. Yep. So you can get that initial relief.

[Brené Brown]

Yes, I need some relief.

[Iko Bethea]

Yes. And it may be at the expense of what,

[Brené Brown]

Being aligned in my values.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah. So just. This is a reason why we don't fix and we don't jump in. Because a lot of us, when we're jumping in and we're being the fixer, is for our own dopamine hit is not in service to the person in front of us.

[Brené Brown]

I mean, was this like a. I mean, like. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I gotta say that, like,

[Iko Bethea]

you are

[Brené Brown]

so embodied in this work that it's so scary to sit across from you when you're in it. Like, I wanna make a. I want to talk about Ben and Wes or her kids or my kids. But, yeah, this is hard for me. Can you tell? It's hard for me, really? Thank you. I'm having a hard time.

[Iko Bethea]

I just want to say, as much as we talk about AI and how fast things go and the complexity and it's so complicated, blah, blah, blah. The thing that is the hardest is managing this machine here. And I would rather jump into a system and be like, we got to do this. This. This had to be done yesterday than manage the most complicated system we have on Earth. But we want to take away AI and all these other things, but we don't want to learn how to manage and embody ourselves. And most of us live from here to here. And if we actually had to be in our bodies all the time, how different would the world be? But we would be dealing with something that's so much more complex than AI and the strategy and strategy culture. It would be so much more complicated. And we're more willing to do that externally than managing this here, which is what we are accountable for. We give up that Accountability so that we can just jump on the chat. That's what it told me to do. That's what my coach told me to do. That's what my mom told me to do. Because guess what? When people tell me what to do and they give me the answers and the fixing, guess who doesn't have to be accountable. That's right, because I can be, like they told me. And we're scared. We talk about how it's hard to hold other people accountable. A lot of us don't have the fortitude to hold ourselves accountable. So I'd rather go to ChatGPT or call my coach or my therapist or, you know, yell at my mom or do whatever are the kids are driving me crazy versus managing this right here. So the book, you know, this book is really about self leadership. And we want to read an HBR article or MIT Sloan Review to tell me how to be a better leader. But I don't want to live in this body, hold myself accountable for my inner landscape and what happens when I'm in liminal spaces. The most complicated thing to lead is yourself. And it's easier for me to read. I'm going to read what Washington Wall Street Journal said today about being a leader and doing that. So if it's that easy, we would just do 1 through 3 of what HBR tells us to do all the time, right? But the idea of I have to live in this body and hold myself accountable and slow myself down and understand what are my thoughts, what impact is that going to have? Own that in certain spaces I might not have power. Doesn't matter how many credentials you have or own in other spaces I do have power. And now I'm accountable and I can't say no, I don't have power. And now I have to be awake at the will and be responsible for what I'm doing, how I'm impacting people in a room, I can't pass that off. How much scarier is that than saying, oh, AI is coming to get us and we've got. It's a complex world and so blah, blah. It's easier for me to do that than to manage this.

[Brené Brown]

Damn. Yeah, yeah. I don't. There's something. Have y'.

[Advertiser Voice]

All.

[Brené Brown]

Did you notice. Is it just me, but did you notice the slowness? It is so antithetical to the world

[Iko Bethea]

because we're actually the ones who get to. We get to pump the brakes, right? But do we have the mindfulness and presence to be able to pump the brakes, or is it easier to say it had to be done yesterday versus asking what's the driver for that? Does it really have to be? What would we what would the trade off be? It's easier to be in the frenzy of X, Y and Z. We like to feel my worth is based on how much I produce, how quickly I produce it and I make that, give the answer and do all these other things versus what does it take to pump the brakes and knowing that we're all the metronome for our own system and if you're leading team, you're the metronome for that team and you give people permission to slow down. With my kids, I'm the one who gets to show up and be slower so they can slow down and give them that permission. But many of us don't self regulate and take accountability for that. Instead we get on the program, this NPC program of got to do it, got to blah blah blah blah without asking the questions or creating any type of friction or rigor in a system or even imagining what would that be like if I did

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[Brené Brown]

It's interesting. We took your framework of anchored, aligned and accountable and not only are we trying to do it individually in our organization, but we're trying to build what we're calling an above the line, anchored, aligned and accountable organization. So not just at a micro level, but at a macro level. And the productive challenge, either for me or people on my team around tell me about the urgency is fundamentally creating breakdowns that we're having a hard time recovering from. We have built such a mental model and a mental model is not only how you see the world, but how you assess your value in the world and at work. We have built such a mental model around urgency. I have built. I mean I'm the founder, right? So I have built. I have built and then surrounded myself with like minded people who have helped me build a mental model of urgency. And when I've taken your coaching and done some of my own work around, can we take a breath for a minute and get curious about why we're

[Iko Bethea]

doing this so quickly?

[Brené Brown]

People are having to excuse themselves and leave a meeting. Like there's a real nervous system reaction to your framework.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah, yeah. We're not used to silence. 1 feel really uncomfortable. Anybody feel like they have to fill in a silence every time it gets quiet, like I gotta jump in there. So we're not used to silence, not used to pauses. We're not used to somebody actually asking us something and waiting for the answer and being really curious about Y, X, Y and Z. We're not used to that. And so our nervous systems. There is a requisite of a reset. It's either you're going to try something new and get different results or you're going to stay on the same train and burn out real fast and still be pointing at everybody else about why. Or you're going to have a reset to think about how you want it to be and aspire to that. I will say because there's practicality in businesses too about sometimes things do have to be done at a pace. And one of the things I do know about the framework is when you have done the work of being anchored into your values and really understanding what they are, what drives you, what are the behaviors, actually helps you to make decisions more quickly.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, I agree.

[Iko Bethea]

It helps you to make hard decisions quicker knowing that, hey, this may not be how I want it to be and I don't love it, but this is how I know it has to be. It helps you to understand and be intentional about the compromises you might make. Because this is really a privilege to be able to every moment be like, I'm in my values and I am working at this company and I'm still in my values. And because you do have some trade offs, but it helps you to understand, recognize what they are more quickly and for you to be able to negotiate and say, I don't like it, but I'm going to do it at this moment for this reason. So that's. If I'm coaching somebody, they're like, I can't leave the job. So I'm doing this and making this decision and being in this space. Even though the friction with who I want to be is here because I need to pay for my insurance, for my kids, because I need blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's really different than just staying on a train and being reactive and not taking a beat about why. Because I'm being intentional. I know what my values are. This is why I'm doing that trade off. And this is why I'm showing up like this right now. I talk about some of the stories in the book. Like, I don't. I believe in people showing up as they are and the moments when I have not. I know exactly why I didn't do it.

[Brené Brown]

Exactly.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah, I know what the cost is and I've done the calculation, but I know I'm doing it. And that's how you live a life that's not a life of regrets. Does he know why you did that?

[Brené Brown]

You and I together have taken probably thousands of leaders through values exercises and we do the same values exercise. One of the things that you and I talk about a lot that is, I think you've helped me see it clearer than anyone that I've done that work with because we facilitate together often is we'll start the values exercise. We know from the research 20 years of data from. Because we've taken 170,000 people from 45 countries through Dare to Lead. We have a ton of data. We know that when you're going to work from values, having 10 values is not helpful. Having around two values is really helpful. And we're generous in facilitation. You get to pick 10, but then you have to back into two. What two are the places where all the other eight are forged. Right. So for my two values are faith and courage. What are your values you want to share?

[Iko Bethea]

Justice and loyalty.

[Brené Brown]

Justice and loyalty. So one of the things that we're always Struck by is how many times. In fact, it happens most times when we're facilitating this, people will say, do you want our personal values or our professional values? And we did an article together recently about the book. And can you talk a little bit about your answer when. Because I said to you, why do you think that's a question? And because of the way the data lead is kind of set up, we're mostly facilitating with the C suite and their direct reports. And there are other facilitators that work across the organization. That's usually where we are. So these are people with a ton of experience, 25 years, 10 year working. And I asked you, why do you think people ask that question?

[Iko Bethea]

And can you share your answer?

[Brené Brown]

Because I thought it was really connected to what you're saying right now.

[Iko Bethea]

This idea of we've learned how to bifurcate ourselves, right? So you're at home, Stephanie, and then you're at work, Stephanie, right? You put your war paint on. By the time you get into the door, you're somebody totally different. But the reality is you're the same person in the same body. And that gap, the bigger that gap is between who you are, are, and show up at work as an at home, the more you're going to be in the doldrums and it contributes to the burnout and all these other things. But this idea of knowing that you are the same person and giving yourself permission. When I get home, when I get to work, I'm not all of a sudden not at home. Iko, who kind of panicked three times when there was a police officer who was driving behind me. And I'm wondering what's going to happen next. I'm that same person. When I get to work and I open, I turn on my laptop, right? And the idea of giving ourselves not only the reality, recognition of that's we're the same person, but also giving ourselves grace to make sure that those, both those people, that one person, but both the identities of at work, at home can be folded together. And when you have folks who are saying, are my values different? What about my values at home and at work? You know how much contortion that requires and the exhaustion and the acknowledgement that we ask people to do here is knowing what those top two are and how they drive, how you show up in all spaces, knowing that you're not always going to be able to defer to what your choice would have been, but knowing why in this moment I might have to make a different decision. I'm the same person and I reconcile. I understand why I'm doing this, but can you imagine? I just want you to think about the pretzel people are contorted into to say I have a different set of values between when I'm at home and then when I get to work. And I can just tell somatically from your experiences. You all see that's some real bullshit. And it's hard. And one of the reasons why I'm asking Brene earlier about our scenario was how do you feel in your body? Your body's not going to lie.

[Brené Brown]

Oh, I hate that part. That's a hard part.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah. It's not gonna lie. And how do you want it to be? And the relief people get. So if you need some intrinsic motivation of showing up how you want it to be, it's the next question for I would have had Brene. Well, what's the delta? What are you required to get to, how you want it to be or what's getting in the way? You have some reality checks around that.

[Brené Brown]

What do you mean?

[Iko Bethea]

So if someone says, I don't know why I can't. Why? Why can't I do both? I mean, if I say, why can't you show up like that with Beth now? And it takes forever. Because sometimes it's not that. I don't know, but I'm scared to say it because what if I do tell Beth and then she says this to me? Like, the idea of possibility of hurt or rejection. What if she goes and tells everybody what if? Blah, blah, blah. It's all the things that get in the way of us being courageous leaders. Because it's not the fear, it's the armor. Like all of the what ifs, but once somebody has named it, now it's there. Can't change what you're not aware of. But once I realize what the barrier is like, oh, man, what do I have to do about. And I'm willing to do it. Once I realized what the castle in the sky looks like, how I want it to be with Beth, how I want to feel. I don't want to feel pissed off. My shoulders are tight and blah, blah, blah. I don't want that. How do I want to feel? I have an idea of how I want it to feel. So now I'll know it when I get to that place. But I also can name what is getting in the way. And most of us, how do we jump right into this is what you need to do. 1, 2, and 3. But not actually bringing the person back into what their solve is and what their intrinsic motivation is. Because the answer I would have given to Brene would have been like, we're shit. Right? Because it would have been my fix and my thing and I would have felt great and walked off. But you would have still been sitting with it. But you have now idea of this is how I want it to be. And you realize for me to be able to get there, I need to do this other thing because you know yourself well enough. A lot of people don't know I need to work out, I need to do this. They don't know it. So now we need to walk through that and all these gaps in how. We don't know how to lead ourselves, but we expect to read an article and to get it or to call our friend or for them to fix it or for us to call our parent and ask them or to ask ChatGPT. But we're the ones in this body and are accountable for and have to live in it. But we want the shortcuts.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, you're not good at the shortcut. I gotta tell you. You are the long way around, which I. Yeah, like, you are the direct path into what's real. And I just. We're out of time. Can you believe it? I was gonna take. I was gonna have her solve some more of my problems, but is she amazing? Let's give it up for Aiko.

[Advertiser Voice]

Let's do it.

[Brené Brown]

Let's give it up. Standing O.

[Iko Bethea]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

All right.

[Iko Bethea]

Awesome.

[Brené Brown]

If you need a coach, don't call her. She busy. Thank y', all. Thank y' all for listening. I hope you took something out of this that was meaningful for you. Again, just blown away by Aiko's coaching mindset, her abilities to be present, to listen for connection. Just a real mentor for me. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. We have fun things planned and we're grateful for you joining us. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group and granted production. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network.

[Advertiser Voice]

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