← DC High Volume: Batman
DC High Volume: Batman
Interviews with Batman: Dark Victory Editor Mark Chiarello and Supervising Sound Designer Jonathon Roberts
00:48:59
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- [00:59]
A
Hi, I'm Koi Jondreau and welcome to DC High Volume Batman. In this monthly companion series, we sit down with the cast and crew of DC High Volume Batman and Beyond, where we last left off in the story. We're about to have Bruce Wayne have a very important conversation with the young Dick Grayson. And what we're about to do on today's show is sit down with supervising sound designer as well as mixer Jonathan Roberts and a legend of the industry, art director and former editor for dc. Man, that has given me so many years of incredible books, Mark Chiarello. So excited to talk to these gentlemen. Let's first bring out Mark Chiarello. I'm honored today to be sitting down with Mark Chiarello, 28 years as art director at DC Comics, the SVP of art and design, as well as currently still illustrating some of my favorite books on the shelves. It is such an honor to sit down with you, man.
- [01:55]
C
Pleasure to be here.
- [01:55]
A
I'm so excited to talk about this with someone who is so versed in this over different generations of the character, because that to me is what this is all about, is bringing in a new audience and revitalizing it for people that know these stories so very well. But going back to the beginning, what was your gateway into Batman and what did he mean to you in the beginning before you'd actually worked with the character so deeply?
- [02:16]
C
Sure. Well, you know, like so many kids that grew up in the 60s, the late 60s, early 70s, I was obsessed with the Adam West Batman TV show. It was monumentally large. You know, every kid in the neighborhood couldn't wait for that show to. To come on tv. And ever since then, you know, Batman's been my favorite character. Like so many people, I find that.
- [02:38]
A
He'S such an interesting gateway into comics because of the human element. There's such an approachability somehow to a billionaire in a mask. But we all have this connection to him. As you worked with the character in so many different ways, how did he evolve in your mind's eye and the perception of the psychology of Bruce Wayne and Batman?
- [02:53]
C
You know, somebody asked me recently why Batman is and was such a popular character, and I don't know the answer to that. Some people say, well, he's not superpowered. You could become Batman if you have the money, I guess. Some people say it's that incredible rogues gallery of villains. I really don't know. The odd thing to me about Batman is he's the only character he's been around since, what, 1939. So that's. I'll do the math. 80 something years, I guess.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah.
- [03:28]
C
He's the only character that has been popular for all that time. From comics, then, I guess radio shows, then television. Like I mentioned the Adam west shows, back to comics again, then the movies. No other character has stayed popular throughout his entire existence.
- [03:44]
A
That's a beautiful point. And I think he speaks to a lot more people than the average character. There's a universality to Batman, and I think. I think a big part of it for me is Gotham. I think Gotham is an element that is a character to Batman, but it's also something that we can all relate to, whether it's people fearing cities or people that live in cities. Like, there's a universality of like, oh, that's a scary place. What is it about the setting of Gotham that you enjoy working in?
- [04:08]
C
I'm a real big movie nut. Like many of us, I love film noir movies. And to me, Gotham is. Is the ultimate film noir location, you know, and everybody has their own, their favorite flavor of Batman. It's, you know, some people really like the superhero aspect. Some people like. I'm a real big fan of the old TV show Columbo, so I like the detective aspect, but I think everybody loves that film noir feel to it, which Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale did so well in their run.
- [04:38]
A
I feel like this really captures the Tim Sale art in a way that I haven't experienced, where Gotham feels so alive because you're hearing things that are impossible even in any other medium. I mean, in a film, you've got to have the actors in some way front and center. And, you know, TV shows, you got to move the plot in a certain direction for that 22 minutes. But here you kind of envelop yourself in the sounds of Gotham and it feels like a noir. It feels so detective heavy.
- [05:04]
C
Absolutely. I love that aspect of, you know, guys with fedoras and Tommy guns and, you know, and one of the things Jeff did so well was he integrated all of the. All of those flavors that I mentioned. You know, it is a superhero comic, but it is heavy on the super villains. Batman has such a great rogues gallery of super villains. You know, he was able to synthesize all those parts of what Batman could be and what Gotham city could be.
- [05:32]
A
Now, speaking of Jeff, you stepped in as editor for Dark Victory, and this was something that was following the incredible long Halloween that was following a lot of the work that Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale had done. And Dark Victory is such a unique piece that is so obviously Gotham Heavy. What was it like stepping in? How did that come to be? I'd love to hear about the editing process of this iconic story.
- [05:49]
C
Sure. When I first got into comics, I was. My boss was a guy named Archie Goodwin. And if you mentioned that name to, you know, old time comic fans and professionals, especially people revered this guy. He passed away quite a few years ago, but Archie was the greatest. He was the greatest editor ever to work in comics. He was a phenomenal writer. He wrote the Star wars strip and Batman. He wrote so many great things. And I knew Jeff a little. I had met Jeff a few times, and when Archie passed, he had been this great editor on the original series. And when he passed, Jeff asked me to take over as editor. And I was just. Boy, talk about big shoes to fill. I think I said no at first. I just can't do it. And they. They said, all right, Mark, enough. You're. You. You're t. Je it's yours. If you know Jeff, he told me what I was doing, so.
- [06:45]
A
Sure.
- [06:46]
C
And then I got to meet Tim and we hit it off like gangbusters. Great guy. Really fabulous guy.
- [06:53]
A
And did you feel the weight then? I mean, you. You turned it down, so you clearly had felt the weight. But what was it like following the Long Halloween? Even in the narrative that was already established, the long Halloween has only grown, but it was still like the long Halloween. Then what was it like editing a story that was following that?
- [07:07]
C
Well, it was pretty easy because as I said, Jeff knows exactly what he's doing. He's brilliant writer Maybe my favorite writer in the history of this medium, but Jeff will tell you what we're doing, you know, So I remember there was a boy. I hadn't thought about this in a while. There was a page where he got something wrong, and I was like, I got you now. I got Jeff, and I called him. There was a scene, and I'll probably misremember it. There was a scene where the hangman leaves a note at one of the murder scenes, and Batman's reading it. And, you know, as I'm reading the script, I realized Jeff got something wrong. He got a really important clue from the hangman's letter. He got it wrong. And I said, dude, you got it wrong. You're not as good as you think you are. So he is as good as he thinks he is, and I think he is because he. He rewrote the scene where Batman got the clue wrong, and he had Robin get the clue right. And of course, Robin goes, excuse me, I think I know the answer here. And Batman says he kind of blows off the kid, even though he loves Robin, he blows off the kid later. Robin, I'm trying to figure this out. Robin goes, no, you got it wrong. And here's the real way it should be looked at. And to this day, I goof on Jeff about that whole thing.
- [08:27]
A
The great Jeph Loeb, even he has flaws, and I love that he's the Batman in the scenario. No, no, no. It's all perfect. It's fine.
- [08:32]
C
Sure. But Jeff, being the consummate writer, he fixed it with his writing.
- [08:35]
A
It's genius. And the fact that he was able to, like, mistake a letter for Hangman is ironic. But then also the fact that you, as the editor, got to have that moment with Jeff, that's something so special in a murder mystery story. Something that small can change the course of history, right? That's so special. Now, I love that we have this relationship with Jeph Loeb's writing, but also with Tim Sales art. And Tim Sale, to me, is one of those artists that not only is it immediately iconic, and not only can he somehow redesign characters and make them feel authentic, both the original and his version. Like, his Catwoman, to me, is unilaterally his, and it is Catwoman, but also I believe in the other formats. Like, it's a really unique take that he can change so much, but still, like, that's Catwoman. When you see Tim Sale art as you're editing something like Dark Victory, what's that workflow? Like, what's that relationship like as an editor, to see these beautiful pages come.
- [09:23]
C
In, that was great. I mean, you know, the. All those years I was the art director at dc, by far the best part of the job was getting to know the people I worked with. I became great friends with Adam Hughes and Darwin Cooke and Cully Hamner and Dave Johnson. These great, great artists that I was also fans of their stuff. Big fans of their. There's not a bigger fan of Tim's work alive today. I just loved what he did. I love what he did. Timmy came at it from pure storytelling. To me, that's what comics are. Whether you're the writer or the artist or the letter or the colors, it's got to be about one thing, telling that story. Look, either you can draw well or you can't. That's, you know, that's almost peripheral. Yeah, you're not going to get work.
- [10:07]
A
If you can't go so far.
- [10:09]
C
But Timmy really, you know, he came from a tradition of the great storytellers. There was a guy named, there was an artist named Alex Toth. T o T H who was this brilliant created space ghost. He was brilliant old time artist in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 50s. You know, Tim and I would talk about Toth all the time. Like if Tim was late on a deadline, I would never call him up and say, hey dude, you're late. I would call up and talk about Alex Toth or I would talk about Joe Kubert or these great Wally Wood, these great artists, you know. And then when new artists came on the scene who had the same sort of outlook and approach to comics, Eduardo Riso And John Romita Jr. You know, I would call Tim and we would talk for two hours and okay, he was late, but when he got off the phone, he was all jazzed to draw this stuff that's beautiful.
- [11:04]
A
And I love that his muses were the, the artists that inspired him, but also the new blood that's really beautiful that he had that feeling about like Russo and Johnny Jr. And their work is astounding as well.
- [11:13]
C
Very much so, yeah.
- [11:14]
A
Now working with Tim Sale, his visual dynamic of Gotham to me speaks so much to that noir we talked about and that style and that aesthetic. But also, like I said, the specific. Were there pages that surprised you and they'd come in, you had the, you had the unique perspective of seeing them before the rest of us. Were there moments where you'd see something, you're like, oh, this is so like revelatory or this is not how I saw it. Or like, you know, those Impact moments.
- [11:33]
C
Yeah. You know, the difficult thing is I collect original comic book art, and every time Tim sent in a package, I'm like, tim, I'm taking pages 11 and 14.
- [11:42]
A
Mine.
- [11:44]
C
No. I was always amazed. I had such a great. Such a great run of luck with working with some of these artists and Timmy foremost in that I got to see these pages. And those were the days where the artists would mail their stuff in or FedEx their stuff into the office. So you'd hold it, you'd see it. Now it's. Everything's digital, so you just push a.
- [12:04]
A
Button, open an email. It's not as impactful as.
- [12:06]
C
Sure, sure. No, you'd run down the hall, hey, Tim's new pages are here.
- [12:10]
A
That's so special. Yeah, that's such a one of one life experience you got to have. That's so beautiful.
- [12:14]
C
Yeah.
- [12:15]
A
Now, speaking of one of one life experiences, at the top, I said, man of many hats, you're also currently still illustrating and actually illustrated issue three of the Last Halloween, which is really personal to me because growing up, the Long Halloween was a gateway comic for me to get my friends. Like, that was. You know, I know you don't read comics, but this one, like, that was kind of my pitch to join me in this crazy world. And now the Last Halloween feels like a love letter to that. And it's honoring not just the story, not just continuing the story, but honoring Tim in a really wonderful way. And you illustrated issue three, and I. I love what DCs doing with different illustrators covering it. What was like for you personally to draw that issue?
- [12:55]
C
It was great. I had just ended my run at DC being the art director, and I went back to being an illustrator comic book artist after all those years, and I sort of had to get my sea legs, and I had to say, can I do this for a living? This is weird. You know, it's easier to tell people how to draw instead of actually doing it. And Tim would send me Jeff's scripts for Last Halloween, and it was 10 issues. It was planned for 10 issues because he knows I'm such a big fan of Jeff's writing, you know, And I'd say, tim, send me the new script. And he'd send them to me. And I loved what he wrote, and Timmy was really jazzed to draw the series. And then Tim died, and it was just heartbreaking and terrible, and we really miss him to an incredible degree. So Jeff calls me, hey, Mark, you're drawing all 10 issues of the Last Halloween. And I was like, Literally, Jeff, have you ever met me? I haven't drawn a comic in 30 years. I said, I'll tell you what, I'll draw one. I'll draw one issue. Let's get all the. The best artists in the business to draw the other nine issues. And that's. That's where we went with it. I mean, Klaus Jansen drew an issue. Bill Sienkiewicz, the incredible Bill Sinkevich, but there was no way I was drawing all 10 of those issues.
- [14:15]
A
I love that. It feels like. It feels like a celebration when there's, like, someone's, you know, 10th, 20th year, a character's anniversary. But it's to Tim, like, I love that, you know, often variant covers have a number of artists, but you don't often see full stories and. And that being each issue. But it feels like it's a lot of people honoring the man himself, which is really beautiful.
- [14:33]
C
Very much so. It was odd, though, to draw that issue. My. My issue was the Riddler is the main vil villain, and Catwoman's got some great scenes with Robin in it. It was hard because. Do I draw it like Tim? Do I draw it in his style? No, that's not right. I shouldn't do that. I had a great conversation with Richard Starkings, who sort of like the guardian angel on all the stuff we're talking about. This great designer. He lettered all the books we're talking about. Very close friends with Jeff. I said, richard, how am I going to draw this thing? I don't draw like Tim. And he said, mark, Tim was a big fan of your stuff. Don't draw it like Tim. Draw it like yourself. And, yeah, as I was drawing it, I wish I could have called Tim and said, hey, how do I draw Robin's feet in this one panel? I don't know how. He wasn't around, but I. I think he was. I don't mean to be corny. I think he was sitting on my shoulder as I drew it.
- [15:26]
A
Every time an issue comes out, I. It like it's a book I sit and experience and. And I love that third issue. I think you did a really wonderful job.
- [15:32]
C
Thank you.
- [15:33]
A
It's a really special piece of art in all the ways, but as a love letter as well, it's really special.
- [15:38]
C
Jeff's. Jeff's script was just so easy to draw. It was so much fun. I was nervous, like, oh, my God, am I going to be able to get through this? And I just. I enjoyed the whole process. You know what was really fun was, again, Tim was Looking over my shoulder. So I put in a ton of Easter eggs. People missed a lot of them. I thought, oh, they're gonna see what I put in this panel. There was one guy on a podcast who caught every single thing I put in there. I mean, the story starts in a department store, and the riddler's buying jigsaw puzzles. So, of course. And it takes place during Christmas time in the winter. So I, of course, I have sale, 20% off. But the word sale, it's Tim's last name. Big everywhere.
- [16:20]
A
Oh, I love it. I think it's a really special thing to continue it. And for me, this is, you know, an audio adventure that paints a picture. And you're so tied to editorial and art. What are some of the pillars of editorial and art that mean so much to you? With your 28 years experience in giving guidance and all those elements? What stands out to you since you've been such a part of comics in that structure?
- [16:43]
C
I just love the history of comics. I mean, I adore the history of comics and the history of American illustration. Artists like Norman Rockwell and NC Wyeth and Leyendecker. Because you're telling a story. I'm not a real verbal guy. I'm a picture maker. And the fact that you can make. You could tell a story through your. Through your artwork is great. I don't have to leave the studio. I don't have to talk to people. I could just sit and draw. That's. That's great. And Tim was a really sweet guy. He was a great guy, but he was kind of a quiet guy, too. So I would call him, and we would talk about Norman Rockwell, and we would talk about. We were both big baseball fans. He was a Seattle Mariners fan. I'm a Yankee fan. So we would scream at each other if the Yankee. If the Yankees be.
- [17:29]
A
No matter what.
- [17:29]
C
Yeah, no matter what. But. But we would talk about the history of comics and who were his favorite artists. And who were my favorite comic book artists. Gene Colon and Jim Starenko and John Romita and Jose Garcia Lopez. That was the greatest thing to meet these guys and gals, you know. Fabulous.
- [17:49]
A
Your editorial experience. I love that. It sounds so much like community. Like, when I ask about editorial or art, your answer is always, like, the human element, the community. And I think that is so much about what I love about comics is that back of the comic store on a Wednesday conversation. And whether it's the professionals or the consumer, there is a community. And to me, dark victory. It adds a darkness, but also the Mystery has a palpable heaviness to it. And what was it like when you were editing, having a story that you knew was so good but also had that. That resonance of. Of weight? There's a. There's a foreboding, and almost like your shoulders being pulled down when you're doing something like Dark Victory. How was that editing?
- [18:26]
C
Hey, look, there have been a million great, great, great artists who have drawn Batman over the years. I won't even go through the list of them. There's so many great, talented people. But for me, what Tim and Jeff did, that's definitive Batman. For me, for my personal taste, Tim captured that inky, wet Gotham City and shadows and Venetian blinds. He was perfect for that.
- [18:50]
A
And I agree with you with Jeff. I think he's one of the greats, and I think there's a special tone that's captured. There's a reason we see these stories adapted often. There's. And we had this universality of them. And last question for you. With Dark Victory in this medium, it has the potential to bring in a new audience that might be unfamiliar with comic books in general. It has the potential to make a comic fan of someone that gets them in the comic store. What would you want to tell a person that has no access to Dark Victory yet going into it? What's the impact you hope the story has for a new consumer?
- [19:21]
C
I think that's up to the. To the experience for. For a fan, a new consumer, a young fan. When I was a kid, I used to listen to the radio late at night. I'm not that old. It's not like the 1930s.
- [19:33]
A
But the only access was there was.
- [19:35]
C
A show, a guy named Gene shepherd who would just tell stories. And I just. You know, you'd sit in your bedroom, you'd lay on your bed in the dark at night, and it would fill the room with these stories. Yeah, I'm hoping that's what you guys are gonna do with. I know you have some great actors on tap, and I hope that fans have that same experience with this.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah. To me, I want the world. The world's panic, but Batman, I want the experience all the way through. And I can't thank you enough. 28 years. Impacting characters that literally taught me to read that have impacted me my whole life. I learned so many morals and ethics from your time on these books. So thank you very much.
- [20:12]
C
Oh, my pleasure. I hope you like my new stuff. The stuff I'm drawing.
- [20:15]
A
Issue three rocked me. The fact that I was worried about that title to the level because I love Tim's work and it really was a great idea on paper to go, oh, artists, each page. Then I was like, okay, it's about to start happening. How am I going to feel when I see it? And issue three and everything from the last Halloween so far has been such beautiful work and such love to the work.
- [20:35]
C
I think it all comes down to Tim and Jeff, especially Jeff. You know, the love they had for each other. They were The Lennon and McCartney of comics and Jeff was not going to drop that ball.
- [20:47]
A
That's beautiful. And thank you again for all your work.
- [20:49]
C
My pleasure.
- [20:52]
A
I'd like to thank Mark Ciarello for joining us today. He is an absolute legend of dc. It was an absolute honor to meet him and talk all things Batman.
- [21:06]
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A
Speaking of talking all things Batman, we would not be here right now without this next guest. Jonathan Roberts is our supervising sound designer. He is our mixer. He is the architect of sound here at DC High volume Batman. And I cannot wait to hear how he hears things pertaining to Batman. Let's bring out Jonathan Roberts sitting down today with our supervising sound designer and mixer, the great, the one and only thing, Jonathan Roberts. How are you, man?
- [22:36]
E
I'm great, Koi. Thanks for having me.
- [22:38]
A
Of course. I love the work you've done in the show. I love the detail and the focus and I want to get into all of that in depth here in a moment. But I want to go back to the beginning. How did you first get involved in this type of production? Not specifically the show, but the audio format. What drew you to it in the beginning?
- [22:56]
E
Well, I Have a background in music, composing music and doing sound design for theater. I love both of those things quite a bit. But that led me to doing live music with a band, which turned into the band being hired as a slot machine writing sound team. That turned into commercial audio, which turned into podcasts. And then I heard about fiction podcasts, which was like the coming together of all these things I'm interested in. And that's when I got. That was maybe seven years ago that I got hooked on this kind of like audio storytelling.
- [23:45]
A
I love that because it does feel like a natural progression, like dominoes falling into the next into the next. What is it about the. The medium of fiction and of mixing for narrative that's most creatively fulfilling for you?
- [23:59]
E
Well, I love to help. I love telling stories, but I love that we're partnering with the listener's imagination. And so it's very unique in that we're not just creating a scene. I'm not just like putting sound to a scene that everybody sees the same way. I'm sort of like inspiring a bajillion different scenes in people's minds by like creating this sound world that then they take with them wherever they want to go to listen. And that seems really unique and special to me.
- [24:39]
A
I love that. No, I totally agree. It's very visual in its way of experiencing and you're controlling the audio side of that visual, which gets to be imagination. It's get to be so much. And I really think with DC high volume Batman, having a visual element of the story that people have access to, to choose or not to, also allows a different imagination, which I adore. Now how did you come across this project in particular?
- [25:05]
E
Yeah, well, we could talk more about that. That component with the visual is new for me to have and probably for a lot of people to have, like this graphic novel alongside the audio experience is really cool and a first for me. But I got to work with a lot of great audio creators at Gimlet and Spotify and some of those teams. Folks there have been collaborating with people at Realm and dc and as time went on, I've always wanted to work with some of these folks. And hearing about these audio legends like Fred Greenhalgh is one that you know well. But hearing about and listening to their works before, it's cool for me to then get to work with them. The team's really special on the show.
- [25:52]
A
Yeah, I've only heard the highest regard for each and every member of the team. And it's only compounded like I love working With a team that speaks highly of each other and then each person you talk to, you realize it's this close knit family and with your job of supervising all of that. And I've heard, I've heard of these Dans and all these different team members. What's it like to oversee so much talent and also have the final product come from that creativity? Does it feel like you all have shared responsibility? Do you all kind of have that trust each other in the net type thing? Like, what's the workflow like?
- [26:24]
E
Yes, I do. I do work closely with a team we call Danforce, Daniel Ramirez and Dan Brunel who helped and work on their additional sound designers working on this show. And we've worked together on a lot of other shows so it's cool to be connecting with them. And we speak a lot of the same language in post production audio. But where I said post production, where I'm really at the end of this thing that has been built up through many, many, many, many people from pre production conceiving, not even counting the original graphic novel, just all the great audio makers that come before me. My role is sound supervisor. And what that means is I'm shaping the final sound and doing the final mixing and bringing it all together. But all these other folks put in, whether it's recording the actors, composing the music, editing, putting the dialogue together, it all kind of like my success depends largely on their, like what's coming to me upstream. Does that kind of make sense?
- [27:30]
A
Totally, yeah.
- [27:31]
E
Yeah.
- [27:32]
A
Now with sound mixing, I feel like that's something a lot of people know, like, but more abstractly like I feel like the average person has heard of sound mixing and, and that as a concept. But what is the actual day to day process of mixing once you have all those disparate parts?
- [27:49]
E
So for me I get, I get the material after it's been recorded and dialogue edited. So I'll get from the rest of the team, Fred and Roshan and Joey Fishground and Andaz Productions, all those folks are putting this thing together faithful to the script. I'll get the dialogue and I'll get the what all the sound effects are and I'll get the, obviously the graphic novel. So then it's my job to put it in the world and put all kinds of sound effects in different layers of sounds that we hear. And then it goes to Sam Ewing with support from Marcus Begala to put in the sound the score in. Then it comes back to me and I put that all together. So there's all these layers that happen after the dialogue comes that really I'm. I'm particularly excited about and am well suited to sit like in that spot in the process and we talked about.
- [28:50]
A
It at the top and now I want to deep dive. I'm a huge comic book fan. I'm a huge graphic novel guy. I'm a devout fan of the medium. And this has been an incredible experience for me because I never thought I would experience Long Halloween for the first time again, much less year one. And so I've been really enjoying having a new take on it. But for someone working so closely with the text and the visuals, do you lean exclusively on the scripts? Do you lean into the visuals? What's your creative process like when you've got those two tools at hand?
- [29:23]
E
Well, typically on audio fiction, I'm just getting the script and, you know, conversations with the director. So this one's really unique in that we have the graphic novel and the adaptation has been so faithful to the graphic novel that I really, I literally have a. I bought like a separate vertical monitor that can like have the graphic novel open all the time right next to him, pointing to it because it's right there, studio. And so it's really unique that I can usually I'm just sort of like imagining this scene and trying to like build it up. But to be able to see it is also. Is really fun and it also really helps. This is a fast paced show so it really helps that we all can lean on that thing and be. It's like a shortcut to speaking the same language, which is really important in audio.
- [30:18]
A
I feel like every one of the actors has said something similar. So it's cool to hear the, you know, both sides of above and below the line. You guys are all using this one unifying force to bring you together.
- [30:28]
E
Yeah, yeah, it's cool. And it's not like everything's decided. It's like so much is there, but there's still. It doesn't feel really like shackles. We can still. There's so much that we can still do, which is pretty cool. The, the actors and, and all of us in post production still have our voice and our way to our stamp on it, which is. Which is cool.
- [30:49]
A
Well, whenever I describe comics to folks that don't read them, I always talk about the space between the panels and I consider that the moment of creativity. Like between the panels, you're the director, you're the actor, you're the writer. Between the panels, you're living that character. And what I really enjoy about this Process is you get to use your skills to make the. Between the panels a different form. And so what that square is becomes something between the next square. And I love that you've all had this unifying force to make this one thing. And on your end, you get all those pieces, put it together. How do you ground yourself into a place of consistency between panels? Much less stories, Much less these three different stories. Like, what's that through line for you to make sure you've got this connectivity?
- [31:33]
E
Yeah. Well, I think part of the way to keep them cohesive has been the restriction, the speed at which these come out. So there was a lot of, like, puzzling out for this team, I would say, on how we all are advanced audio makers, but how do you do this, like, very cinematic rich thing at a fast pace?
- [32:03]
A
Yeah.
- [32:04]
E
And that requires putting some, like, guardrails on what you're creating and sort of, like, standardizing some of the sounds. And so building a, like, it's been helpful to build a pretty robust library of, you know, ambiences and scenes and even clothing that the people wear and try to stick with it pretty in the interest of keeping the pace going. And I gonna guess Sam has a. Sam Ewing doing the score. Has a sort of a similar thing. Like, I know you talked a little bit about the themes that he has. It's sort of like there's so many choices to make in audio that to have it by having these, like, pillars to lean on, it helps make the whole thing doable. And also, I think a side product is it's cohesive because we have. We're recognizing these sounds coming back over and over.
- [33:05]
A
So I like that the uniformity that comes from having that laser focus inherently gives you certain structure.
- [33:11]
E
Yeah.
- [33:11]
A
Now, on the Batman side, were you a Batman fan before this? And has that changed in being so in the world of Batman since?
- [33:20]
E
I. I have not. I didn't grow up like a deep comic book reader or a big Batman fan. I. I grew up going to the movies and, you know, sort of following Batman in a casual way. But this was new for me, and I didn't really know the graphic novels really even. Which I hope isn't, like, too startling for you. But I. What's unique, I think about me is that I'm like, as I'm creating it, I'm learning about it, and it's resonating with me in ways that people have probably, you know, like, it struck people years and years ago. And I'll have the unique, like, chance of, like, oh, I'M making this scene. I'm sort of, like, experiencing it for the first time. And I'll get, you know, several episodes into a series, and I'll be like, oh, I can see why this is such a hit. This is great, you guys.
- [34:19]
A
This Batman guy, he's gonna do well. This character is really something special.
- [34:24]
E
Yeah, I. I just, like. I'll tell you the. Lately, it's like the loneliness that he's. That he's grappling with. I know people have talked about. I'm sure you've. You and many, many other people have talked about this for a long time, but Dark Victory was. Is particularly moving for me. And I'm sitting in your room. You can see me right now. I'm in my studio, and this is in my basement. And I'm down here. It's like my bat cave. And I'm making stuff for this and all kinds of shows, and I'm here alone. And you have so much, like, control in these audio shows where you can, like, if you want something to be over, you know, sound like it's in a totally different place. You can, like, make all this stuff right here. And I have a lot of power, a lot of gadgets, but I'm here alone. And it's both inspiring and then also, like. Like, I can't be alone all the time. I. I sort of, like, I'll be working on a Batman scene, and he'll be sort of saying something like, you know, I need these other people in my life, or, you know, better written. And I'll be like, I do. I need to get upstairs and I need to connect or I need to reach out to the other people on the show.
- [35:39]
A
I love that, man. I think it's really. I. I'm not a comic thinks there's any sort of barrier to entry. I love however people find these stories. And I think what's beautiful about high volume is it's an opportunity for people that are more comfortable in audio than comics to discover the stories and then maybe. Or maybe not pick up comics. But I love that you're getting the things that comic fans have gotten out of Batman for years and finding it in your medium. So, I mean, I think that's kind of the point. And I also. I love that it is about connecting to the character. But you're getting to do it in a very unique way because you're shaping the narrative and finding your connection in shaping the narrative. When you get these individual files and you're starting to piece it together, you're Uniquely poised to hear some of it buttoned up for the first time and. And put together. What's it like when you hear that mix that you've compiled for the first time, feeling that cinema feeling that completed sense of awe, like, do you still get that? Wonderful.
- [36:36]
E
Yes. It's cool when it's like. It's like a. It's an experience of a. Of an image, like, locking in and it happens at different times. It's like I can tell when a scene is on track to being in a good space, when the image is clear in my mind, at least I can't guarantee it will be for everybody else. But once that locks in, sometimes it happens with just the dialogue. Sometimes it's with like, certain sounds that are in. Sometimes it takes. It's not till the score comes when Sam's laying in these, like, shifts that are happening when I can feel like when. When Grundy and Batman are like, swooping down the. Down the drain, through the sewers.
- [37:22]
A
Yeah.
- [37:22]
E
And forget which episode of Dark Victory. But they're. But they're went to. It's like. It's like, ah, I keep seeing. They're just. They're just splashing around. They're splashing around and then like, I don't know, changing the way the panning goes or changing the way, you know, Sam's score comes in. Suddenly it's like, oh, I can see them, like, swirling just like the pictures. And so I. It happens at different times on each, you know, with each mix. But once, it's like once the image at least locks in my mind or I can see the thing, then I feel confident to, like, share it to Fred or Roshan or the rest of the team and see if it locks in for them. And you know, in dc, seeing what. See what the feedback is at that point.
- [38:05]
A
In a similar vein, are there moments from production that stand out for you? Any. Aha. Moments of like, piecing this to this together or a certain episode or any. Any even troubleshooting, any moments that, like, evolved you in your job that you remember distinctly?
- [38:21]
E
Well, right out of the gate in Year one, it was clear, like, oh, this show, for me, it's a lot about one thing at a time, like beat by beat by beat by beat. Like, stuff can be action packed, but it has to be like one thing at a time for the listener to follow. And so that that came, you know, some of that initial fighting with like, Flass and Gordon in the beginning, getting those beats to be really clear, you know, so it's not Just like a. Just like a mess of punches, you know, what. What's happening? We're running at him now, and then he, you know, then he falls on the ground or he flips over. So mapping those out. In my pro tool session, I'm often, like, writing markers in, like, you know, punch, step on the foot, turn, spit blood, trip, drop, gun. You know, this is all in. Those beats are all happening one at a time. So figuring that out has been really important for me and trying to make the show clear enough for people to follow. So much happens, you know, at all times.
- [39:40]
A
Like, so much is always. I mean, comics are so dense when you look at them that way. When you break them down in that structure.
- [39:46]
E
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [39:47]
A
How do you think this will inform, like, whatever you work on next? Do you think that, you know, learning that detailed minutia and focus and analyzation, do you think that's going to inform your work going forward where you have a different, like, structure?
- [40:00]
E
Yes, this. Working on this show. This is my first superhero show. And, yeah, it's been really influential for me to make sure those beats are really clear. And on other projects, I can tell, like, I get mad if it's not things. If too much is happening on top of it of other things.
- [40:23]
A
That's fair. I could see that on your perspective. Totally. I'd be so frustrating.
- [40:27]
E
It's like I, you know, a lot of stuff, it's hard to explain. Like, stuff does overlap, but it was like. But you have. I guess Marcus Pagala was describing this to me because I was getting in. This is the first time also. I've had so much score in this, in. In a show and different from. I don't know, maybe it's. Maybe there's more overlap than I think. But, like, it's really important to have one thing take the forefront and then something else come in the background. And it's happening all the time. Like, you know, this big emotional swell is the score. And then this comes all the way out, and we have punch, punch, punch, and then we have dialogue. Everything else is out. Dialogue's coming out. And then, you know, all the. Suddenly we need to know that we're in, you know, in a shipyard. So we need ambience here, but then it's got to go all the way away. So learning that. That you can make these big shifts in service of the listener following stuff has been really influential for me.
- [41:34]
A
That's really interesting. It's like a rack focus, but for audio, like, I think in the visual language and Then you're doing the audio version of where your ear focuses like your eyes would focus in a photo.
- [41:47]
E
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, It's. It's tricky because if there's no sound, we don't know it's there. In audio, if there's somebody's not. If somebody's silent in the whole scene, we forget they're there.
- [42:05]
A
Right.
- [42:06]
E
But if you hear everything all the time, you're also lost. So it balance to get people to hear and see what we're hoping for.
- [42:17]
A
I love that man. Now, now this medium is so rapidly growing. There's such an audience, there's such a. A fervor for audio. What do you think is the future of this medium? Like, where do you see things going? What do you want to see?
- [42:32]
E
Well, I, I can see this is the first time I've had this, like the, you know, where we've made the, the version with the, the graphic novel as well. I see a lot of potential there. That's really cool. And like reviving other, other comics, other stories. Love that. Really fun. I wouldn't have thought that I would be so inspired by that because I'm always like, let's get rid of the pesky visuals. We got our imagination. But I love it. I also love that. And on the other side, I love that it gives people a new reason to check out audio like this. Because I want, I don't want people to lose or I want people to discover the joy of taking a story with them out in the woods or driving or wherever, to hear this story that's made in the context of their own life in a totally unlikely place. So I hope that this new kind of show that we made is inspires people to like discover these audio stories also.
- [43:38]
A
I absolutely love that man. And one last question for you, because this is DC high volume Batman. What do you want, folks, whether they're discovering it for the first time or reliving these stories in a new way, to glean from this run of year one into long Halloween, into dark victory, like what you connected to the loneliness, the isolation, the gadgetry, all those things. What would you want folks to connect with, with this story? What story do you want to tell from this?
- [44:04]
E
I want people to have that same kind of. I got goosebumps when you're asking me that. So it's funny. I must have connected with this too. You know, my connection was like, was this loneliness. But I bet people, everybody else has something in there that they connect with with Batman or another character that they can see. Themselves in this. And I think it's throughout these books that there are these things, moments where people can see themselves and I hope people have that same kind of moment that I had for themselves.
- [44:34]
A
Oh, I think that's the power of these characters and the power of your work with these characters, man. Like, I have loved every beat of this and hearing all of what you do that goes into it. I could not thank you enough. It's so special as a comic fan to get to experience this in an all new way. So thank you so much for your tireless work on this incredible project, man.
- [44:51]
E
Thanks for the encouragement and for the chance to geek out about audio with you. It's really fun. Thanks. Koi.
- [44:57]
A
Oh dude, the work is there. Thank you. I'd like to thank both Jonathan Roberts and Mark Chiarello for joining me today. I love how multifaceted not only Batman is, but how multifaceted making art about Batman is. There's so much that goes into it. There's so much passion and love, and these two gentlemen both clearly love this character and love making stuff around him. And speaking of stuff around Batman, this is a very Dick Grayson centric era in Dark Victory and I wanted to give you guys some comic book recommendations that I love with Dick Grayson front and center. First up, let's talk about Robin and Batman, which is a run from Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nien with incredible watercolor art. Dustin Ian brings his trademark flourish of color and vibrancy with Jeff Lemire's incredible vibrant writing. And this is a really fun tale because it's from the Robin side of that classic Batman and Robin feel book. Also highly recommend Nightwing from Bruno Ronaldo and Tom Taylor. One of my favorite runs of all time. This is a multiple Eisner Award winning incredible time with Nightwing. Start with volume one leaping into the light. It is, I would say, one of the most approachable DC comics of all time. You can pick up just volume one and really dive into for quite a lot of issues in this one continuity in this one storyline. And to put it briefly, it is a story where Alfred passes away and those millions of dollars Alfred had get inherited by Dick Grayson. And the age old question of why doesn't Bruce Wayne invest in his city instead of punching mentally ill people? Well, that gets answered because things can go wrong even when you invest into Bloodhaven, which is what Dick Grayson does. So we get a lot of Dick Grayson trying to be a benefactor, a lot of Nightwing having having to solve problems the Batman way. And why Those characters are so different or what makes them so interesting. So highly recommend you check out Nightwing Volume 1 as well as Robin and Batman for two very different eras of Dick Grayson that are both absolutely astounding. Both can be found on the DC Universe Infinite app, which is DC's online comic book catalog filled with tens of thousands of incredible DC comics. I spend so much of my time there. I highly recommend you do as well. I also spend a ton of time at my local comic shop. You can also get both of these at your local comic shop which is I love supporting local shops, I love supporting the community. I love keeping stores alive that are are hiring and keeping us nerds going. So I highly recommend you support your local comic shop whenever you can. It helps the writers, it helps the artists, it helps the community, it helps the nerds that want to go to a comic shop. If you ever see me at one of yours, say hi. Hunt me down there. Also hunt me down on Instagram and tick tock and YouTube. All of those at Koijandro. Happy to talk to you digitally as well. So please find me. Let's talk comic books. Follow me and I will show you more comics to read. And until next time, thank you for loving comic books, thank you for loving Batman and thank you for watching the show.
- [47:39]
E
We'll see you soon.
- [47:43]
A
Thank you for joining us in this special episode of DC High Volume. Batman executive producers for Realm, Carly Miliori and Roshan Singh Sambi executive producers for DC Mike Palata and Victor Diaz, Adam Boffa, technical director Insung Huang engineers Jason Gambrell and Echo Mountain. Hosted by me, Coy Jondreau. Special thanks to Fred Greenhalgh, Kalyn West, Olivia d', Arienzo, Sam Ewing and to comic books for existing.
- [48:30]
E
For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries and a drink. We may need to change that jingle.
- [48:44]
C
Prices and participation may vary.