Brandon Dickert (3:50)

Buenos dias, Chelsea. How are you?

Chelsea Handler (3:52)

Buenos dias. Que taoteva.

Katherine (3:54)

Oh, muy bien, muy bien.

Chelsea Handler (3:56)

I figured I'd speak Spanish. I'm in Jamaica right now, so I thought I would, you know, that's apropos of Jamaicans. I'm getting all my countries confused. I figure we just should start speaking Spanish everywhere because of Bad Bunny and let letting all these white cranky people know that it's too late.

Tim Gunn (4:13)

Yes.

Katherine (4:14)

My mom.

Brandon Dickert (4:15)

This was so funny. My mom's visiting, and Brad and I didn't watch anything with the super bowl. And I told her. I was like, yeah, we didn't really see anything. And my very sweet mid-70s Mennonite mother goes, you didn't watch Bad Bunny? And then she made me turn it on and, like, walked me through all the symbolism, and it was just absolutely wonderful.

Chelsea Handler (4:34)

I'd walk me through all the symbolism because I didn't catch all the symbolism. I never catch all the symbol anything. In movies, in culture, in art, I'm always like, oh, what? I'm like, I need someone to. I need a culture guide. Yes.

Brandon Dickert (4:47)

Did you know the wedding was a real wedding?

Chelsea Handler (4:49)

The wedding that they showed? Yes. I, I, I. Well, I wouldn't have, except that I read that, so I wouldn't have known it. So I'm not. I feel smart sometimes, and then there are many other times where I just feel incredibly stupid. So I. I don't know. I'm somewhere in the middle.

Brandon Dickert (5:06)

That's the world we live in. It's not your fault. Yes.

Chelsea Handler (5:08)

Yes. I'm excited, though, because I have shows tonight. I'm on my way to Madison, and then I have Milwaukee, and then I have Toronto, Casino Rama. Where else do I have this weekend? Detroit that's right. I'm coming to Detroit on Saturday night. So there's still tickets for that show. So definitely come. And there's still tickets for Milwaukee. I have started the High and Mighty Tour. We are on our way. My listeners better. I better see all of you on tour. Okay. Ladies and gay men.

Sydney (5:35)

Yes.

Brandon Dickert (5:35)

I've gotten so many emails from people who are like, I'm coming to this show. I'm coming to that show. So it's really exciting. And, like, say hi to people when you're at the show. Like, meet other listeners, meet other fans. Like, I think that's one of the most fun things about going to a show.

Chelsea Handler (5:46)

Like. Yeah, I know. I love that. I love when my fans meet each other, become friends.

Katherine (5:50)

They see.

Chelsea Handler (5:50)

I see that a lot. There's some. There's a lot of women that come by themselves. I'm like, you couldn't get anyone to come with you? And then they hook up with each other. And I'm like, oh, that's nice.

Brandon Dickert (5:59)

Yes, absolutely.

Katherine (6:01)

Absolutely.

Brandon Dickert (6:01)

Well, our guest today is someone I'm very excited to join.

Chelsea Handler (6:05)

I know, I know. As was I. It was a very great conversation.

Brandon Dickert (6:08)

Yeah.

Chelsea Handler (6:09)

He is a cultural icon who isn't these days, best known for his role as mentor and executive producer on Project Runway and Making the Cut. And he's a former chair of fashion design at Parsons School of Design and a New York Times bestselling author whose career has been rooted in elevating others with clarity, compassion, and conviction. Please welcome Tim Gunn. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Look who's here. Hi, sweetie.

Tim Gunn (6:38)

How are you, Chelsea?

Chelsea Handler (6:39)

I'm great. How are you doing, Tim Gunn?

Tim Gunn (6:42)

I'm better for being with you and Katherine.

Chelsea Handler (6:44)

You look like a very serious news broadcaster right now.

Tim Gunn (6:50)

Well, thankfully, I'm not a news broadcaster.

Chelsea Handler (6:52)

Seriously. Thank God we're not news broadcasters. I was just listening to a really interesting podcast. I don't know. Do you ever listen to Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, like, Pivot or any of those podcasts?

Tim Gunn (7:04)

Occasionally. Occasionally. The only one I listen to regularly is yours.

Chelsea Handler (7:08)

Oh, my God, Tim. Do you know what a compliment that is? I love it. I love it, and it's really true. Let's get married, Tim. I feel like we're on the exact same page. You know what? Oh, this is what I want to talk to you about. Well, first, let me finish my thought. So I was on my way here today listening to a podcast, and it was just talking about new media and how you're really kind of more untouchable when you produce your own thing, you know, and you like on YouTube and doing like. Independent media is now on the rise because of all of the quashing of opinions.

Tim Gunn (7:38)

Oh yeah.

Chelsea Handler (7:38)

And all this old media, it's like it's so stale anyway, and it's on its way out anyway. So that, you know, the president going after all that stuff is just another reason for independent media to rise up. And like, when people like Don Lemon who take to the streets and some other great examples like Tim Dylan on the Bulwark and all these different people doing their own things is really getting a lot more attention. And I don't know how exactly you monetize that, but there is a way. So that's promising and that's something to keep focused on in these days that we're living in. Tim.

Tim Gunn (8:11)

Oh, these days are quite unbelievable. I just have to say I feel very fortunate and very lucky to have my health and to have shelter and to be here with you and Catherine.

Chelsea Handler (8:22)

First of all, I want to talk to you about your celibacy. Let's talk about that. That's one of the reasons why I think we could make it as a couple because I feel. I feel like, you know, there's no, I'll leave you alone, there's no pressure. We'll enjoy each other's company. We have any qualms about telling the other person to get the fuck out of our space when we need to. And we have similar sensibilities, I feel like. And we don't have to worry about having sex.

Tim Gunn (8:46)

Exactly. It's perfect.

Chelsea Handler (8:48)

How long have you been celibate, Tim?

Tim Gunn (8:50)

I've been in New York for 42 years. 43 years. Wow.

Chelsea Handler (8:57)

So this was a choice that you made?

Tim Gunn (8:59)

Yes.

Chelsea Handler (9:00)

Tell me about that choice. Were you just tell me why.

Tim Gunn (9:04)

Well, I would keep a psychiatrist very busy, I can say that.

Chelsea Handler (9:09)

Oh, that's right, because I'm also a.

Tim Gunn (9:10)

Psychiatrist and you're a good one. I had a very serious nine year relationship in Washington D.C. and I loved this person deeply and would have done anything for him. And I still remember the night that it all ended. We were in bed watching mash. It was the first run. And he said to me, I have no patience for you any longer. I want you to leave. I had my own apartment, but I had been living with him for years. And I left. I drove to my apartment on Rock Creek Parkway and I had to pull off because I was hyperventilating. I was beside myself with self flagellation and self pity and it was awful. And this is someone I worked with. So it wasn't as though I just would never see him again. And one of the things that he told me that night was that he'd been sleeping with just about everything that walked by. And I had been loyal and faithful to him. He was the only person I'd ever been with. And this is the advent of AIDS. It's 1982. Wow. And I thought so. The self pity then turned to completely unbridled anger because I thought he may have given me a death sentence. And I was tested every six months for 10 years for HIV. And thankfully, I had a clean slate.

Chelsea Handler (10:42)

Yeah, thank God.

Tim Gunn (10:43)

But whenever I was even tempted to engage in something that could become serious with someone, all this would come back like Niagara Falls, and it would just take the desire away. And I have to say, being celibate and being someone who lives alone was a bit of an adjustment. But now I wouldn't have it any other way. And Covid and the pandemic and our sequestering brought this all back for me because we had to stay home. And I'm probably one of the few people who really loved it.

Chelsea Handler (11:19)

Another thing we have in common. This is not a popular thing to proclaim, but I also loved the beginning stages of COVID I'm not gonna lie. I was slightly disappoint, disappointed when people were told to go back to work again.

Tim Gunn (11:31)

We are kindred spirits. I felt the same way.

Chelsea Handler (11:34)

And we could imagine the funds. We could co mingle. I feel like I'm supporting too many things in my life. And I'm like, I just wanna join up with someone who also has a robust bank account, and we can just be fair with each other so that there's not so much pressure on my shoulders. So it's probably a better deal for me than it is for you, but I'm just throwing it out there. And throughout this podcast, I'll continue to remind you of the possibilities. I'm so sorry to hear about that relationship. And what a horrible ending to a relationship.

Tim Gunn (12:04)

I'll invoke a phrase that I use all the time. And my mother absolutely hated this phrase. Things happen for a reason. And sometimes the reason isn't revealed at the moment. It may not be revealed for days, weeks, or months, or sometimes even years. But had this relationship not fallen apart, I would never have moved to New York. It would never have happened. In 1982, when this relationship was still ongoing, I had been offered a teaching position at Parsons here in New York. And I said no. I said, I'm very happy. I have no desire to leave D.C. but a year later, after my life had changed, Parsons called again. And I said, I'll be right up. And two weeks later, I was living here.

Chelsea Handler (12:44)

So, like, how long do you think it took you to get over that relationship, to really, truly be grateful to be in your own company to that point?

Tim Gunn (12:55)

Well, to be honest, upon reflection, I would say it was the end of those 10 years of being tested for HIV. I thought, okay, I have a clean slate, I'm good. But every six months I would have this bout of anxiety about what if it took a while? And, you know, I occasionally relive it in my head, but it doesn't hurt any longer.

Chelsea Handler (13:21)

Right, Right. I mean, I think I'm asking you this because so many of our listeners call in, as you may know, about these kinds of issues. When are they gonna get over something? How do they deal with such a big loss? And it sounds like you went in a certain direction and were able to heal from that and feel like this has been the right decision for you. After a lot of reflection with, I guess, Covid reinforcing that. But is there anything that you can share with our listeners about coming to grips with a breakup, coming out of a relationship that was a long relationship?

Tim Gunn (13:57)

I can only reflect upon my own experiences, really. We all know that time is a great healer, but the amount of time that it takes depends upon the circumstances. It was helpful for me to get out of Washington because I wasn't seeing him every workday.

Chelsea Handler (14:14)

What was it like when you did see him after you guys broke up?

Tim Gunn (14:17)

It was completely horrible. Horrible. I wanted to kill him and I wanted him to hurt as badly as I have been hurt. He seemed to be impervious to it though, so it was just great to get away. And also moving to New York, I had this huge learning curve about this entirely new environment and different social interactions and a completely different academic environment in which I was teaching. So that was a wonderful. I won't say it was a distraction. It was just a new beginning and it was truly new. So I would say to someone who's been in a long term relationship that's terminated in some way, it's good to, I won't say change your job, but.

Chelsea Handler (15:10)

It'S good to move to another city and change your job if you can. If you can afford to do either of those two things or just get.

Tim Gunn (15:18)

A new living environment, something that makes you know that things are different in more ways than just this relationship going away.

Chelsea Handler (15:26)

I think what you're saying is, the world is so much bigger than we are. In that moment of defeatism, you know, or brokenheartedness, the world is so much bigger. And it's like sometimes you have to physically take yourself into a new version of your world and a new part of the world geographically, to understand that how big the world is and how small that was. Even though it was massive to you, it's a blip in your history now. And because you've made such a big life for yourself. Did he ever make contact once you hit the big time?

Tim Gunn (15:57)

No.

Chelsea Handler (15:58)

Yeah. Good.

Tim Gunn (15:58)

No, I haven't heard a thing.

Chelsea Handler (15:59)

That's awesome. That's awesome.

Tim Gunn (16:00)

It's fine.

Chelsea Handler (16:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Dickert (16:01)

What's that thing they say about, like, success is the greatest revenge, Success is.

Chelsea Handler (16:05)

The greatest revenge, or revenge is a dish best served cold. Yes, yes, I agree. I agree with that. Cause by the time you ever get revenge, sometimes you just don't even care. You know? You don't care. You're like, I don't care about you looking like. I remember breaking up with a certain boyfriend, and I couldn't wait until it hurt him. Right? You know what I mean? In a way that I was like, wait until you see how much you've lost. Like, I'm valuable. I brought everything to this relationship, and you fucked it up. And, like, now when I see him, I can see how much he misses me and how much he cares for me and respects me. I mean, he doesn't try to, like, get back together with me, but it's very apparent, and I don't get any pleasure from that. Cause you moved on. You know what I mean? I'm just like, oh, I knew it. And it came true. And I think that's true for so many of us. You know, by the time you get what you were looking for, it's a little too late.

Tim Gunn (17:02)

I agree.

Chelsea Handler (17:03)

So, Tim, tell me. Okay. You have one of the most distinctive voices in television. So I want to. Cause I have a distinctive voice. So when I'm sometimes talking, I could be on a ski hill, covered in ski gear with a face mask on, and people will hear me and be like, chelsea. And I'm like, what the fuck? I can only imagine how annoying it must be for you, living Manhattan and going out to restaurants. I mean, what is it like when people hear your voice and don't even see your face?

Tim Gunn (17:32)

Chelsea. All this incredible phenomenon happened after I turned 50, and that was 22 years ago. So I am delighted to have people shout out or say hello. I consider it to be really A great honor. And it doesn't. Not only doesn't bother me, it actually kind of invigorates me.

Chelsea Handler (17:55)

Oh, that's a great answer.

Tim Gunn (17:57)

I love that I've still got something.

Chelsea Handler (17:59)

Yeah.

Tim Gunn (17:59)

But it's very flattering.

Chelsea Handler (18:01)

Yeah. Yeah. You look very sharp today. Also, I would like to know, what do you sleep in? I would like to know what Tim Gunn's wardrobe for nighttime is.

Tim Gunn (18:11)

I sleep in a white V neck T shirt and J. Crew pajama bottoms.

Chelsea Handler (18:19)

Okay. With a cigar in your hand.

Tim Gunn (18:21)

No. Maybe a Manhattan.

Chelsea Handler (18:25)

I like the idea of falling asleep with a Manhattan in one hand and a cigar and sleeping with your arms over your head all night to protect your property. I wanna ask you, what do you think? I hate trends. Okay. I hate fashion trends.

Tim Gunn (18:38)

Me too.

Chelsea Handler (18:39)

I fucking hate it. And I know you do. And so what is the. Let's think about what you think is the most annoying fashion trend of the last five years.

Tim Gunn (18:50)

Well, for me it's easy to say, though. The more I say it, the more ubiquitous this item becomes. And I know it's kind of hackneyed now, but in God's great kingdom, how did leggings become a pant?

Chelsea Handler (19:08)

I know.

Tim Gunn (19:08)

How did it happen?

Chelsea Handler (19:09)

I agree. I agree. I don't understand. I don't remember when people used to get dressed up to go to the airport.

Tim Gunn (19:17)

Yes. I miss those days.

Brandon Dickert (19:19)

Yes.

Chelsea Handler (19:19)

I mean, that was a little bit before my time, but I remember watching planes like, you're a little bit older than me. But when I remember watching, like Love Boat and those kinds of things, and you saw the way people would travel for vacations and you don't need that. Like, you don't need to be in a three piece suit to get on an airplane. I'm not suggesting that. But be decent and respectful of others. Like, don't have your skin out. You know what I mean?

Brandon Dickert (19:46)

So why do you want your skin touching the airplane? No, no, no.

Chelsea Handler (19:49)

Yeah. Don't be in flop flip flops on a plane. Like, there should be some sense of decorum. I think I've approached almost every airline and offered to make an etiquette video. But I think because I'm such a divisive figure, they're like, no, you're not the one.

Tim Gunn (20:02)

Yes, you are. I don't take advice from you any day.

Chelsea Handler (20:06)

Thank you. Thank you. And every flight attendant asks me to do it. They're all like, please, Chelsea, do something. And I'm like, I'm here on this flight during the next five hours if you have any issues with anyone Please. I'll hand. I like to intervene and be an interloper in situations that don't involve me at all. That's a bad fashion trend. I also think when trends change every six months, it's like when people take that seriously. I find that very annoying. It happens with language as well.

Tim Gunn (20:34)

I call people who chase trends fashion victims.

Chelsea Handler (20:37)

Yes. Yes.

Tim Gunn (20:39)

And I'm always saying to people, don't chase trends unless it's something that really appeals to you, that pulls at your heartstrings. And also, you and Catherine know it's fashion's pendulum and it's retail's pendulum. They want us to buy stuff, so they've gotta keep changing things up.

Chelsea Handler (20:55)

What do you think the best fashion trend of the last five years has been?

Tim Gunn (20:59)

I don't know that there's been one. Honestly, it's been the slobification of dressing. Athleisure Rising. I don't understand it.

Chelsea Handler (21:14)

Yes, Athleisure is gross. Cause it's also. It's intimating that you just worked out. And also are in the public, walking around, getting out. Even at the hotel I stay at in New York. And next time I come to New York, we're going out for a drink. Tim, I don't know if you drink. I love it, but you can watch me drink. Do you drink?

Tim Gunn (21:32)

Do I drink?

Chelsea Handler (21:32)

Yeah, you drink, right?

Brandon Dickert (21:33)

Also, Manhattan, please.

Tim Gunn (21:34)

I'm a hair shy being an alcoholic.

Chelsea Handler (21:36)

Okay, great, great. We're on the same. Another thing. Okay, so, yeah, we're gonna. I'm gonna give you my phone number because we need to have a drink.

Tim Gunn (21:43)

I'd love it.

Chelsea Handler (21:43)

As enjoyable as this is, I'm going to want more of you. Oh, Athleisure wear. Yeah. That intimates that you are or infers that you came from a workout. And when I stay at my hotel in New York that I stay at, I only stay at one hotel. I love it. It's the best hotel. I wish I could say the name of it to promote them, but I don't want any more people there anyway. They have, like, a club lounge, you know, where you get to go and have breakfast or cocktails or whatever you're in the mood for dinner or lunch. And even when I go to the gym, which is on the same floor as that club lounge. If I go into the breakfast room or the club lounge in my outfit from working out, it is only to retrieve a water or get a green druse. I would never sit down in those chairs after a workout. I find that repugnant. I find that People who walk around, especially when you're a woman, because you have fucking wet vagina stains.

Brandon Dickert (22:34)

Swamp ass.

Chelsea Handler (22:34)

Yeah, swamp ass. And walking around in public after a workout, you have to go home, do charse, and then go out into the streets. And the leisure wear that you see on planes, same goes for that.

Tim Gunn (22:47)

I agree.

Chelsea Handler (22:47)

You're basically saying I worked out, even though, you know, most people are wearing it without working out, too. It's like, I worked out, and now I'm ready to relax more.

Tim Gunn (22:56)

I have to share an anecdote. I work out with a fitness trainer, usually once a week, sometimes twice. We work out in Central park, and I wear my workout clothes, which I only own because of Jason and the fact that I work out with him. So I was walking from my apartment on the Upper west side to the park, and a woman stopped me and she said, how dare you? I said, I'm sorry. She said, how dare you wear these clothes? This is exactly what you tell people not to wear. And I said, I'm going to work out. I am not going out to lunch. I'm not going shopping. I am working out.

Chelsea Handler (23:36)

Yeah, yeah, exactly everything. The lines have been blurred about a lot of things. Thank God for your voice. Now, you were in the room when Heidi Klum put on her famous worm costume.

Tim Gunn (23:49)

Yes.

Chelsea Handler (23:50)

I don't know why I'm putting up quotation marks. I don't know what that's about, but you were there. And at any point during that, did you think, what the fuck are you doing?

Tim Gunn (23:58)

The entire time. The entire time I thought, what the fuck are you doing?

Chelsea Handler (24:02)

And did you advise her? Did you tell her what you thought?

Tim Gunn (24:06)

Well, it was too late. I only believe in telling people about things that they can change. She was already many hours into this costume, and what I really wanted to ask her is, how are you gonna move in this thing? You're gonna have to writhe on the floor like a worm.

Chelsea Handler (24:23)

Like a worm.

Tim Gunn (24:24)

Yeah.

Chelsea Handler (24:25)

Yeah.

Tim Gunn (24:25)

It wasn't pretty.

Chelsea Handler (24:26)

Yeah. No, it wasn't. It was very silly. A lot of people liked it. What do you think about dressing up for Halloween?

Tim Gunn (24:32)

Well, I don't do it, but I've for the last five, six years, and this will be the sixth or seventh year I've been a host of the New York Public Library's Halloween party.

Chelsea Handler (24:42)

Oh, nice.

Tim Gunn (24:43)

And you have to come dressed as a literary figure or a book or something. So it stimulates the brain, and I love it. And people become. They get very, very ambitious.

Chelsea Handler (24:55)

Well, that's very different. That's different. That's not. Yeah, that's not an adult, like, high level prostitute nurse party you.

Tim Gunn (25:03)

No.

Chelsea Handler (25:04)

Yeah. And I don't really.

Tim Gunn (25:05)

It doesn't appeal to me.

Chelsea Handler (25:06)

No. And if you could dress up as an author, then you could basically just do whatever. Dress the way you're dressing anyway. Or as a writer or as a literary figure. Tell me what your favorite fashion city is in the world.

Tim Gunn (25:18)

Oh, New York.

Chelsea Handler (25:19)

Really?

Tim Gunn (25:20)

And I say that because this city accepts you however you want to dress. It's very, very democratic in that way. And you'll stand at a street corner with 39 other people, and no two people are dressed alike. And I love that about the city. They're fashion capitals. Paris, London, Milan, Rome. But they tend to be somewhat formulaic, and people at a certain level tend to all look the same. And I enjoy the fact that the city is so incredibly diverse.

Chelsea Handler (25:56)

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess at a certain level, the wealthiest people all kind of start to dress the same. Yeah, There's a uniform almost. Right, Agreed. Yeah, that makes sense. So what was it like when Project Runway approached you and you became, after your first season, the biggest breakout star? Like, how did that hit you?

Tim Gunn (26:16)

Well, do you know the story of how it all happened?

Chelsea Handler (26:19)

I don't.

Tim Gunn (26:20)

I was chair of the fashion design department at Parsons. It was January of 2004. The producers called me to say that they wanted to come to my office and speak to me about this. This reality show they wanted to do about fashion. And my response was the following. I said, fashion reality. I said, this industry has enough trouble without that. And they said, well, just let us come. We'll only require 10 minutes. So I googled them. This is what I'm always grateful for. Google. And found out that they were the Project Greenlight producers. So, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, a reality show about making movies. And so I thought, well, they have a lot of integrity and a seriousness of purpose. So they came, and I became instantly seduced when they said that they wanted to work with real fashion designers, not pick people at random off the street and say, you. We'll make you into a fashion designer. And I got excited, and then I didn't hear anything for months. And then there was an abrupt phone call saying, we really do want to work you through. Now, this was in a capacity as a consultant. My role on the show did not exist. It was in no one's vocabulary. So two days before the designers were arriving, the producers asked me whether I would be willing to go into the workroom and ask them what they're doing. And I said, well, it's how I've spent most of my life, so, sure. But I never dreamed I'd be in the cut of the show. I thought, as long as they have the designers responding to me, no one needs to see me, no one needs to hear my voice. And accordingly, I didn't go to the premiere party. I thought, well, if I'm not in the show, it'll be rather humiliating. And if I am in the show, what is the show? Is it sexual antics in the apartment building where the designers are staying? Because I will also tell you, our first five seasons were on Bravo, and when we were taping season one, well, no one certainly knew who I was, including Bravo. So I'm standing in the real and metaphorical dark of the Parsons Auditorium, where we were taping the fashion show, and the judges deliberation, and this woman standing next to me, who I didn't know, turned to me and said, who's going to want to watch this? This is like watching paint dry. And I said to her, you were corroborating my worst fears. So after she left, I asked someone, who was that? Grumpy Gus? And they said, oh, that's Lauren Zelasnek, the president of Bravo.

Chelsea Handler (28:53)

Oh, how funny. I know Lauren. Yeah, for sure. So what happened? Are you able to talk about what happened with Project Runway? Or is that not. Do you not want to talk about that?

Tim Gunn (29:03)

Oh, I can talk about anything with you.

Chelsea Handler (29:04)

Okay. Yeah. What happened?

Tim Gunn (29:06)

Are you thinking of something specific?

Chelsea Handler (29:08)

Well, I mean, you're not doing the show anymore.

Tim Gunn (29:11)

I'll be perfectly transparent about it. I wasn't invited to the party.

Chelsea Handler (29:16)

Oh, I see.

Tim Gunn (29:19)

My agent called the producers to say, we understand Heidi signed up. We haven't heard a thing about Tim, and they said we don't want him.

Chelsea Handler (29:28)

Oh, my gosh.

Brandon Dickert (29:29)

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Tim Gunn (29:30)

Yeah.

Sarah (29:30)

Wow.

Tim Gunn (29:31)

I mean, it was devastating at first, but as I said earlier, things happen for a reason. And I feel extremely lucky to have had 19 seasons of the show, 16 with Heidi, and I have a beautiful Emmy sitting on my kitchen counter. So no complaints. I feel very, very, very lucky.

Sydney (29:51)

Great.

Sarah (29:52)

Great.

Chelsea Handler (29:52)

I mean, listen, you got a lot out of that show, and that show got a lot out of you. So many people, especially queer people, have such a role model in you, and you've set such a high standard for so many queer people and regular people, too. But you really are somebody that so many queer people look up to. I wonder, when you were growing up, did you have anyone you looked up to?

Tim Gunn (30:13)

It was so hard then. I grew up in the 50s and the 60s. There were the decorators in the Doris Day movies who were not role models I wanted to have. There was Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched. Everyone was very flamboyant, and I thought, that's not who I am. But I will also say it wasn't until my late teens that I came to terms with my sexuality. I knew what I wasn't before then, but I didn't know what I was. And no role models in that regard were non existent, I have to say.

Chelsea Handler (30:49)

Yeah.

Tim Gunn (30:50)

And also, homosexuality was considered a mental illness until the American Medical association or the American Psychiatric association, whichever it was, removed it from the list in 1972. So the whole time I was growing up, it was thought that this is something that's extremely bad and needs to be cured.

Chelsea Handler (31:11)

It's unimaginable to think. I mean, even now that we're in this kind of administration and all of these things are up in the air, it's just unimaginable to think about a time growing up that, like, what a muzzle that puts on so many people. What a muzzle, you know, it is to have a government tell you something is illegal, that you. That is a natural feeling in your body. Like that is. It's perfectly natural to have someone say, no, that's not true. You're not real. Your feelings are inv. We decide. I can't get over that. Like, I can't get over government's interference and choices like that.

Tim Gunn (31:46)

I can't either.

Chelsea Handler (31:47)

It's just crazy. Like, you don't want an abortion, then don't get one. You don't wanna be gay, then don't be gay. You don't have to be gay. No one is making people be gay or transition. Nobody. That's not true.

Tim Gunn (31:58)

It's not true.

Chelsea Handler (31:59)

It's all just. It's all crazy. You know, I wonder what you think about this. I have an older gay gentleman in my life, and I remember, like, a couple of years ago, we were in London and he was bemoaning the whole trans movement, saying that it's really hurtful to include them in the LGBTQ community. And I was like, wait a second, you guys went through this yourselves, like, in the 90s? What are you talking about? How could you possibly not wanna invite everyone in? So I'm interested to hear your take on that, which I guess is you obviously support transgender people.

Tim Gunn (32:35)

Oh, I do. I will say, though, o. I'll confess something that I actually stand by this happened years ago. I was asked by a fashion publication how I feel about trans women walking the Runway during Fashion Week. And I said, and I stand by it still. I said, I'm not a fan. And the reason I'm not a fan is because the fashion industry is always looking for a museum who defies a woman's shape. And, you know, we've had eating disorders, and we had limb lengthening that was happening in Eastern Europe. Anything to make the model look longer, taller, skinnier. And in the case of a male who's transitioned to female, there are no hips. And that was my objection. I'm all for. I'm a huge supporter of trans individuals. In fact, a young trans woman used to fence with has since this new administration, gone undercover. But it's the intimidation of this administration.

Chelsea Handler (33:44)

As if it's not enough of a struggle to deal with that issue alone that you need. You know, I have so many friends who have children who are trans, and the worry and the fear and the constant daily fear of something happening. You're already scared when you put a child out into the world. It's already scary. It's scary to have your kids go to school and possibly get shot. It's scary to, you know, have your kids be out in public. When we live in such an unsafe country right now and people are using violence to express themselves, Imagine having that muzzle be put on you as if. As if you can choose to not have those feelings. It's so sickening on every level. On a much lighter note, I had no idea you were a fencer.

Tim Gunn (34:28)

Oh, yeah.

Chelsea Handler (34:29)

Wow.

Tim Gunn (34:29)

I started fencing very late in Life at age 62, so 10 years ago.

Chelsea Handler (34:35)

Cute, Tim. That's so cute.

Tim Gunn (34:39)

It's a fantastic sport. It's a workout for the body and a workout for the brain.

Chelsea Handler (34:42)

Nice.

Tim Gunn (34:43)

With a tremendously long history. It's wonderful.

Chelsea Handler (34:46)

Wow. Yeah. That is cool. I need to learn a little bit more about fencing. I'm not educated enough about fencing.

Tim Gunn (34:51)

Well, I wasn't either, Chelsea. It's been a tremendous education.

Chelsea Handler (34:55)

What got you interested in fencing?

Tim Gunn (34:58)

I was being interviewed by a very dynamic young man, and I didn't know anything about him. And he shared with me that he's a three time Olympian and a silver medalist in fencing and that he had just opened a fencing club on the Upper west side. I said, the Upper west side? That's my neighborhood. So I went to visit him, and I was enraptured with this activity, this action, all of it, including the uniform. And I became his eighth student. He now has over 400.

Chelsea Handler (35:33)

Wow.

Tim Gunn (35:34)

So I was there at the inception of this club and it's just. It's very, very thrilling. It's also. Well, I have to tell you, on Sundays we all arrive at the club. I mean, those who want to participate.

Sarah (35:51)

Yes.

Tim Gunn (35:51)

Or this is our church. In fact, it's in a synagogue. The club. So you bout everyone at the club on Sunday, regardless of age or gender. And I'm old, I'm slow, I know it. And this is a speedy sport. At least saber fencing is. I've only won one bout and it was against a nine year old girl who was about three and a half feet tall. Aria. Aria. And I have to tell you, I. In the middle of this bout and you have to score five points to win. In the middle of this bout, I thought, should I throw it to her? Should I? But I had this crazy lust for winning. I thought, I've never been this close to actually winning this. And I thought, I can't do it. So after I won, she burst into tears. I give her a hug, I go to her mother and I apologize. At any rate, I persist. But Arya, still, she left the club. But I see her occasionally in the neighborhood.

Chelsea Handler (37:05)

Poor Aria. Poor Aria.

Brandon Dickert (37:07)

That's a good prisoner.

Chelsea Handler (37:09)

You know what? It's a great story for both of you.

Brandon Dickert (37:13)

I have a quick question about, like, since you've been working out, you've been fencing. Obviously your musculature has changed. You know, you've got your traps, they're popping. Have you had to have your suits tailored?

Tim Gunn (37:24)

Well, I buy off the rack, but they are tailored.

Brandon Dickert (37:27)

Okay.

Katherine (37:28)

Okay.

Tim Gunn (37:28)

Yeah, I don't do custom.

Katherine (37:31)

Okay.

Brandon Dickert (37:31)

And has that changed, like as your body's changed with working out and putting on more muscle?

Tim Gunn (37:36)

Well, my trainer Jason knows that I'm not interested in building muscle. I'm more interested in retaining and gaining strength. And I started practicing intermittent fasting. I only eat once a day to keep everything off because the older you get, the less you metabolize. So even if you're just following the same routine, the same diet, you get bigger. And I can't afford a new wardrobe.

Chelsea Handler (38:05)

I mean, you look good, so.

Brandon Dickert (38:07)

Yeah, you look very strong.

Tim Gunn (38:07)

Thank you.

Chelsea Handler (38:08)

Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna be right back with Tim Gunn after the big game. Like everyone else, I had opinions about the commercials because of course I did. And there was one that I couldn't stop thinking about from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school, not in some overproduced movie scene way, but in a way that felt very real and very relatable. And as someone who is Jewish, I can tell you those moments are not small, even when people try to treat them that way. What the ad captured so well is that antisemitism doesn't always show up yet. Sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it's casual, and the impact is still huge. The response in the ad wasn't perfect or dramatic, it was human, which honestly is what can actually make a difference. So if you saw the Blue Square alliance commercial during the Big Game, I hope you really watched it. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is an easy way to say you noticed and that you care. You can also learn more by following and upto Jewish hate on Instagram or TikTok or by visiting standuptojewishhate.com if you're looking for a wine that's not just delicious, but also a total crowd pleaser, let me introduce you to Josh Sellars. This California wine brand has over a dozen award winning wines. From crisp Sauvignon Blancs to velvety Merlots. Josh Sellars has the perfect wine for every occasion. Serving up a juicy steak at your next barbecue. Josh Sellers Cabernet Sauvignon is the perfect pairing. Unwinding with friends after a long week. You can't go wrong with their Pinot Grigio. With so many delicious wines to choose from, Josh Cellars has something for everyone. Josh Cellars wines are made for sharing with those who matter most to you and each wine is made to exacting standards. So no matter which varietal you choose, you can be confident it will be well balanced and delicious. Josh Cellars is a proud sponsor of Dear Chelsea. Visit www.joshcellars.com Chelsea and join the Wine Club to get 20% off off. Please drink responsibly.

Sarah (40:07)

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Chelsea Handler (40:59)

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Katherine (42:06)

And.

Chelsea Handler (42:06)

Now we're back with Tim Gunn and we're going to take some questions, which is, I'm assuming it's going to be your favorite part of the show.

Brandon Dickert (42:13)

Well, our first question comes from Ross. This one's just an amen.

Chelsea Handler (42:17)

He's a steer.

Brandon Dickert (42:17)

Chelsea My name is Ross and I'm a 29 year old gay man living in NYC and working at a multi brand fashion showroom. My job is amazing. I get to meet new people, travel to Paris four times a year, get free clothes and work directly with designers.

Tim Gunn (42:32)

Wow. A dream.

Brandon Dickert (42:34)

Sounds great.

Chelsea Handler (42:35)

Yeah, lots of perks.

Tim Gunn (42:36)

What's the problem?

Brandon Dickert (42:38)

So I work on the women's team and I have two co workers who have quickly become some of my best friends. Friends. I've been on the team the longest two and a half years and the other two are at roughly the one year mark. I recently found out that I make about $12,000 less than they do for the exact same job, same title, same workload. I'm starting to feel resentful of my job and the people I work with and do not know what to do. Do I ask for more money? Set an ultimatum? Do I just leave? I feel like everyone I Talk to has a different perspective and solution. And I'm feeling lost. Would love your advice, Ross.

Chelsea Handler (43:10)

Tim, would you like to go first?

Tim Gunn (43:13)

Well, I have a fair amount of experience with this, to be perfectly honest. Yes.

Chelsea Handler (43:19)

This is interesting. This is the reverse of what I normally hear. And I'm wondering if this is a gay male thing. Like are gay men getting paid less than women?

Brandon Dickert (43:27)

Right. Because the women in this situation are.

Tim Gunn (43:31)

My experience goes back to Parsons where I was for 24 years. The last seven and a half of which I was chair of the Fashion Program program. Prior to that I had been teaching. And later in my term at Parsons I had an additional responsibility as associate dean. And as associate dean, department chairs reported to me for instance, and full time faculty. So I knew what people made. And the department chairs made a fair amount of money, certainly more than I made. But I was an associate dean. It was completely different. So then I become the chair of Fashion Design. There are 230 students. It grows to more than 800. I'm making so much less than the other department chairs. And I know why. It's because they're moving forward my salary and they can only add a certain percentage to it from when I started. And new people coming in were always making more money. There were full time faculty at Parsons in my department who were making more money than I was. Was. So revenge can be very sweet. I was going through a reappointment review which happens supposedly every five years. But mine had been postponed because of the department growth and things changing in the department rather dramatically. And that was my doing with the faculty. So I was up for reappointment review. And when I was associate dean I oversaw reappointment reviews. So I knew intimately what one had to do. And I kept being told that I had to bring the dean the broomstick of the witch of the west. And I kept doing it until we reached an impasse where I thought, I can't do this. I'm not able to do what you want me to do. But I said it to myself at the same time. The CEO of Liz Claiborne had come across the street. We were across the street from each other and dropped this incredible surprise in my lap. He wanted me to be his first hire and his chief Creative Officer over 46 brands. And I had this wonderful revenge moment with the Dean where I made an appointment to see him. I brought him an envelope and he asked me, is this what I want? And I said, I am absolutely certain it's what you want. And what he had Been asking me for were recommendations from fashion educators in Europe. And I thought, I know one person. But he said, well, I'm very disappointed. I need three. And I thought, this is total bs. So I loved watching him open the envelope as he realized that this was my letter of resignation. And I got back to my office and the president of the university called and was screaming, you owe me a year. You owe me a year. I said, you know, I've been here for 24 years. You owe me a bon chance. But what's the moral here? I don't believe in ultimatums. I believe that this young man should. Should shop himself around the industry and look for another opportunity. Because it's demoralizing to know that people who came in after you are making so much more.

Chelsea Handler (47:00)

But also, there's no harm in asking, is there? I mean, why not ask first and say, I know that they're making more than me? So, like, did he say they came in after him? Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Dickert (47:09)

Like a year and a half. I mean, and you could do both.

Chelsea Handler (47:11)

You could ask pen shopper.

Brandon Dickert (47:13)

Absolutely.

Chelsea Handler (47:14)

To what Tim is saying.

Katherine (47:15)

But also.

Chelsea Handler (47:15)

Also ask. You never know.

Brandon Dickert (47:16)

I mean.

Chelsea Handler (47:17)

I mean, they've already indicated that they don't respect you because they're paying these two women more. But there is no harm in asking. And, you know, it's a good. I think it's a good exercise to ask for what you are.

Tim Gunn (47:27)

Well, I don't disagree at all. In fact, I agree. It's nice, though, to have something in your back pocket. Because until I started making more money, in a manner of speaking, because I want you to know, the first, when I was still at Parsons, I was making almost nothing off of Project Runway. So it wasn't as though, oh, I have this additional income and I'm double dipping. It's nice to have something in your back pocket just in case. Because I always thought, if I lose my job, I can't afford my rent. I mean, I'll really be destitute. So it's a better fuck you if, in fact, the negotiating meeting, if it goes awry, you can just walk and just say, okay, I'm out of here now. And you know what's interesting? Going back to my situation at Parsons, they could have offered me more money. It didn't have to be as much as Liz Claiborne was offering. If it had been $20,000, I would have stayed because I envisioned my entire life remaining at Parsons or my working life remaining at Parsons. There was no effort towards that. None. I'll also tell you that Diane von Persenberg is a dear friend and she was a board member at Parsons. And after the call from the president, I received a call from her and she said, you can't do this. You've done so much work in the fashion department, you've repositioned it. And I said, diane, let me cut to the chase. And I told her how much I was making. And she said, without missing a beat, leave.

Chelsea Handler (49:03)

Leave now.

Brandon Dickert (49:05)

It's good to have a.

Tim Gunn (49:06)

But there was never an effort to pay more, right?

Chelsea Handler (49:09)

Yeah, of course. Because people are gonna get away with whatever they can get away with.

Katherine (49:13)

Yeah, right, right.

Brandon Dickert (49:14)

Ross, will you have your answer? And good luck. Our first caller today is Sydney, and she's 28.

Chelsea Handler (49:20)

Sydney, sweetie, I would like to talk to her actually.

Brandon Dickert (49:23)

Okay. She says, dear Chelsea, I've been with my boyfriend for five years. Our life is pretty good, except for our sex life. We started dating when we were both 23 years old and have hit the many young adult milestones together. Job and career, bouncing grief, living with a partner for the time, losing friendships, etc. At the beginning, our sex life was fun, but after the one year mark, it just fell off. He does not show outward interest, even though he says he thinks about it often. He has expressed his lack of insight on what he thinks about his sexuality. He grew up Catholic, but no longer practices and was taught that it was a bad thing, so he hadn't taken the time to discover what it could look like for him. He told me that it was honestly easier in the beginning when we were casually hooking up because love wasn't involved yet. But now that he loves and respects me, the way he cares doesn't align with how he viewed sex. Then. I figured once we settled into real adult life, that part would work itself out. But now we barely have sex. I've tried asking pointed questions, giving him space, tried telling him to man up, tried the nurturing approach. We've tried therapy. I've asked if he just never wants to have sex, because then at least I would have an answer. And nothing has worked. He does have OCD and says things like, I want it to be spontaneous, but I also want to feel clean and prepared. He acknowledges that those two things clash, and I can tell he knows he's disappointed. We talk about it a lot, but I am tired of talking and I just want to fuck like the girl I used to be in the past. There's a lot of love in this relationship. Despite this, we live well together, have a great group of friends, have Future goals. And we're touchy with each other, but it's cute, not sexy. I do love him dearly. Dating and men in general are both scary as fuck. And if a guy ticks all the boxes but one. Should we really break up over this? Sydney, hi.

Chelsea Handler (51:01)

This is our special guest, Tim Gunn.

Brandon Dickert (51:03)

Hi.

Tim Gunn (51:04)

Hi, Sydney.

Chelsea Handler (51:05)

So Tim's celibate. I'm celibate in the moment. Katherine probably had sex on her way here today with her husband. She also works on the podcast, and they're very horny, especially in the car. Okay, so you're not married?

Sydney (51:21)

No. Right.

Chelsea Handler (51:22)

And how long have you guys been together? In total?

Sydney (51:25)

Five years.

Chelsea Handler (51:25)

I mean, sex is a pretty big box to check for you. I started out with Tim being celibate because that's not important to him as it is to you. And for me, it would be important in a relationship because that would be. One of my primary reasons to be in a relationship, would be for the sex. I mean, that would be a big component. You know what I mean? I would expect to be having sex on a very regular basis. Otherwise, I can hang out with my girlfriends. So it's not just one box that he's not checking. It's basically one of the kind of foundational aspects of a relationship is sexual contact. And. And. And that can mean a variety of things, but if you're not not satisfied, then that's not going to change. And if you've been down the road of therapy, you've been down the road of trying different things and, you know, doing different things, like, are you ready to actually, like, leave a relationship over this?

Sydney (52:18)

I don't know. Like, I think that my views have changed a little bit because it doesn't feel as important as it used to. And we do. We do have sex. It's just not maybe as often as I would want.

Sarah (52:30)

Want.

Sydney (52:30)

And when we do have sex, it's really good. Like, I'm having a good time.

Tim Gunn (52:35)

Yeah.

Sydney (52:36)

Part of me is thinking, like, maybe I need to. I think I've been pushing him so much to get to my level, and, like, maybe I need to think about me for a while. I don't know.

Chelsea Handler (52:48)

Yeah, I would think that. You know, listen, that doesn't ever work in relationships when we're trying to force something on somebody else. It doesn't work that way. It's kind of like you change your behavior and people change their behavior because of your change in your behavior. That's. That's what happens. So I would definitely say to do that and focus on yourself. Is there any world in which it would be acceptable to you and or to him to have sex outside of the relationship?

Sydney (53:11)

No, not him. He's been cheated on before, like in the past. I think that that would never be, like, he would never be comfortable.

Chelsea Handler (53:19)

Right. Okay, well then you have that answer. So you're not gonna do that.

Sydney (53:23)

So.

Chelsea Handler (53:24)

Okay, so your options are to stay in the relationship. I think why don't you start with, instead of making like some decision about your relationship, why don't you just really pull back the pressure mode and really catch yourself, like really start focusing on all of the attributes of his that you do appreciate and that you do love. Remind yourself on a daily basis, write em down every morning the three things you love about him. Write that down every morning. Like, what do you like about him today? What was a highlight of your day with him? What was a great moment that you had with him? And do that for a moment to just really get like a catalog of where you are in this relationship and if this is something worth fracturing the relationship or if it's something you can live with. But also I predict that if you do pull back, you are going to get a different response from him.

Sydney (54:10)

Definitely.

Chelsea Handler (54:12)

Nobody wants to be pressured and felt be made to feel guilty, especially when it's about them performing.

Sydney (54:18)

I think if I like gotten my dom era, he would really appreciate that.

Brandon Dickert (54:23)

Well, and that is another big question is like, is there a world in which like he is. It's not about his pleasure necessarily, but like, you're in the mood and he can pleasure you. You guys can do that together and then like, he, he's off the hook. Like, he doesn't have to perform in that way.

Sydney (54:38)

Yeah, I think he would be happier if that was me. If I was the one that was just like, it's time, I think. But I've never been that person, so.

Chelsea Handler (54:46)

Well, that's another option. I think that's a great option.

Brandon Dickert (54:49)

That's a really good solution.

Chelsea Handler (54:50)

I didn't even know that was an option until you just brought it up. So you had the answer to your own question. Why are you calling me?

Sydney (54:56)

Well, I don't know how to be a dom.

Chelsea Handler (54:58)

Ah, you don't know how to be a dom. Have you watched Dying for Sex?

Sydney (55:03)

Yes, I have.

Chelsea Handler (55:03)

Okay, great. You can do what she did. I mean, that was, you know, that was it. You can say, hey, I'm coming home. I want you to go down on me like, I've had a long day. Let's go. I'm gonna go Take a shower, whatever. And then you could go down on me for 20 minutes or 30 or a fucking hour. Like, you make the rules like that. So there's two options. And you can try both of these approach. You can pull back, like, let it, you know, give it some space. Let's talk about sex before you get into your dom era. Give it a few months. You know what I mean? Just pull back. Don't pressure him. Don't make sex a priority. Just, you know, just do your thing and see where that takes you. If in a couple of months nothing has changed, then you. I think you should propose that and learn about it. Read about it, Go online and read all you can. I mean, most people don't start out that way as dommes. They learn about it and they're like, oh, this sounds like a me. I just listened to a great podcast about this woman who is dom and I was like, oh, she's like an extreme marathoner. And she just like, loved. I mean, well, she was into BDSM too, so. But she was extreme marathoner and she loved the pain in her body that she felt from like hurting herself and hurting herself. And she wanted to feel that in the bedroom and she wanted to feel. This is a little bit different than what you're talking about. Obviously it's another extension, but. And I was like listening to this podcast. It's that New York Times podcast that talks about relationship. And I was like, oh, I have a friend. I've sent it to my friend who's an extreme marathoner. She's like, I'm not into this shit. Don't send this to me. But it was interesting. She found out she didn't like it, but, you know, she tried it and that was bdsm. So she was really trying to like, you know, be in pain and hurt herself, which is not what you're describing. So there's a delineation. But yeah, I would say give. Try some different things to get some different results.

Sydney (56:49)

Definitely. I agree.

Brandon Dickert (56:50)

Is he in any kind of treatment for his ocd?

Sydney (56:55)

No, I think we hit a kind of a wall in our therapy sessions and we're going to go to do kind of individual for a while. I think it's time to stop that part and do some self work.

Brandon Dickert (57:07)

Yeah, I think that's a good plan because, you know, if this is sort of an something that's caused by ocd, just like getting a handle on some of that for him and getting some tools might be really helpful in this area as well as other areas.

Sydney (57:19)

Yeah, And I think for me, like, I'm way too tuned into his tendencies of just like the way he likes things. And so like, if I see like him dissatisfied in his environment, it also pulls me out of it, but that's also not my responsibility. So I've kind of had a hard time.

Chelsea Handler (57:37)

Like that's something to bring up in therapy because that's just codependency, you know. So, yeah, talk to your therapist about that and just. And like do what I suggested. Give everything a decent amount of time. Give it a month, give it two months and then. And see if anything changes and keep us posted.

Sydney (57:51)

Okay.

Chelsea Handler (57:52)

Okay, thanks. Okay, bye. Thank you.

Sydney (57:55)

Bye. Thank you.

Chelsea Handler (57:56)

Bye.

Tim Gunn (57:57)

That was genius advice.

Chelsea Handler (57:59)

Oh, Tim, stop it. I mean, have I been more compatible with any guest that we've ever had on everything that you say, honestly. Hi, Doug, I have my dog here. I wish you could see him. He's so, so good looking and he's so stylish.

Brandon Dickert (58:14)

He's very sweet.

Chelsea Handler (58:15)

He is stylish.

Brandon Dickert (58:16)

He's done.

Chelsea Handler (58:17)

He's not that sweet actually.

Brandon Dickert (58:19)

He was sweet to me today, which.

Chelsea Handler (58:20)

I'm talking to women, but men, he's like, no thanks. Which I wonder where that comes from.

Tim Gunn (58:27)

Is he a certain breed?

Chelsea Handler (58:28)

Yeah, he's a chow chow. He makes fluffy.

Tim Gunn (58:30)

Oh, they're adorable.

Chelsea Handler (58:31)

And he's all black, so I haven't had a black chow chow yet. So he is gorgeous.

Brandon Dickert (58:35)

Yeah. Well, our second caller today is Sarah and she is wondering about purpose and her subject line is how much purpose is too much Purpose?

Katherine (58:43)

Purpose.

Chelsea Handler (58:44)

Great question.

Brandon Dickert (58:45)

Dear Chelsea and Katherine, thank you so much for putting your time and energy into this podcast. I'm writing to ask about purpose and more specifically how you identify what your purpose is and how to know how much time and energy you want to put into a specific activity. A bit of background. I'm currently being treated for stage 4 metastatic colon cancer. Last year I was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer after what I thought was going to be my 45 year old preventive care colonoscopy instead. The next months included surgery followed by 12 rounds of chemotherapy over six months. I thought that would be it. But three months after finishing chemo, my early detection surveilling indicated that the cancer had returned. More testing confirmed metastases in a lymph node and I was put on another course of chemo for another six months. I currently have a couple treatments left to go before they determine next steps. During the time of shock and fear of the recurrence, I came across research backed anti Cancer Living book and my husband and I recently Reddit. We made lifestyle changes and took on a mantra of moving forward by saying yes to new opportunities like selling our house and moving into an apartment in the French Quarter in New Orleans and taking a last minute trip to Las Vegas to see Beyonce. All that said, in the 10 days between my chemo treatments, I feel better than ever. And I have in my adult life. On those days, I'm operating at 100% and I realized before my diagnosis I was consistently at 75%. This experience of being a cancer patient, which I still find hard to write or say out loud, has left me asking, what is my purpose in this? I've learned so much about the importance of getting colonoscopies as soon as you can, navigating treatments and finding paths to feel good. That I want to share, but I'm not sure how much time and energy to put into the sharing. Is sharing with close friends and family enough? Do I want to write more of this down and share it with my broader community? How much time and energy do I want to put into this? Any guidance on how you decide what is the right amount of time and energy for you to put into a project or purpose would be much appreciated. Love all your work, but especially this pod which I often put on during chemo treatments to drown out the folks blaring Fox News in the infusion center. Love ya, Sarah.

Chelsea Handler (60:41)

Ugh, I can't even imagine having to deal with that and then listening to Fox News. Jesus. Hi, Sarah.

Sydney (60:50)

Hi.

Chelsea Handler (60:51)

Hi, you beautiful human being. This is our special guest, Tim Gunn. Oh, hi Tim.

Tim Gunn (60:56)

Sarah, you are a beautiful human being and quite a hero.

Katherine (60:58)

Oh, thank you.

Chelsea Handler (60:59)

I mean, just that letter alone, listen. Yeah, I love this question because you are like, you are living proof that you need to be living, you know what I mean? While you're here, live, live it up. I love that you went to Vegas and went to go see Beyonce. I love that you gave up your house or bought an apartment in the French Quarter. Like, these are things that you do to live like. And I understand that there's the purpose sense of this question. I understand completely what you mean. How much are you allowed to be selfish in, like, you know, under the umbrella of selfishness and just do your own thing and like, take care of yourself and how much do you need to give back? I would honestly say with everything that you've been through, it is really the most important thing is to take care of you and your happiness and the time that you are here to enjoy yourself. As much as you possibly can. You've been through hell and you've handled it with aplomb. I'm sure there have been very dark days, and I'm sure there have been lighter days, but it's a heavy burden to bear. And I think what you're doing is perfect. The fact that you're contemplating it means that you're thinking of others during such a time where you know your health is at risk. And I just wanna say, whatever you feel moved to share, to do outreach to help and share your experience to others, then do that. But you don't have to adhere to a certain set of guidelines that are just. That are arbitrary. You know what I mean? You don't have to. You don't have to help other people. You actually really have to help yourself. Because by helping yourself, the need to help others is almost kind of like it's just a natural progression of things that are gonna happen. You know, people see you carrying yourself in a certain way. Even at the. When you're getting your chemo, people can go in there and be down and out. And you going in there and having a positive attitude and being hopeful or being optimistic or being kind of is already showing and demonstrating something to others. And as far as you sharing, I really would just say you are the number one priority. And whatever excess or extra time you feel like you have, then you could go and do those things. But by no means. This is not your job to educate people on cancer. Tim, what do you think?

Tim Gunn (63:14)

Well, I'm reflecting upon something, Sarah, that you wrote about writing. I think you really should. Should keep a diary, chronicle your journey, even if it's 100 words a day. I think it would be purging and cathartic for you. And it's something tangible that you can also share if you choose to do so. But I think the most wonderful thing about writing, and I'm a writer, so I do this myself, one of the most wonderful things about writing is you. You wrap your brain around how to articulate the feelings that you have. And it can just be extremely helpful and can give you a lot of insight to things. But I am completely blown away by your courage and your tenacity and your will to live. It's extremely inspiring.

Katherine (64:09)

Thank you. Thank you all for all of that. I really appreciate it. It's helpful to. To hear that, like, encouragement of just, like, what do I. Like, what am I feeling? And do that and like, one thing at a time. And I think to Tim's note, Chelsea, I know you've mentioned this a lot. Like, when I do write, I do a gratitude list, and I try to make it a long list. So then I have to get into, like, little, like, little things that you wouldn't think about. And I kind of have a mantra of just like, you know, I'm living today. I'm living today. Well, tell what you know I'm living for. And then I kind of fill in the blank, which kind of helps just like every day be like, like you said, appreciative of like, oh, you know, I have this day. And what's beautiful about the day?

Brandon Dickert (64:57)

Well, here's a question for you, too. There are a lot of people obviously listening to this, so you're already helping them by, like, reminder to get your colonoscopy, like, go in for checkups. Because you've learned so much. Is there anything that you'd say to our listeners about, about what else they should know, what else they should be screening for?

Katherine (65:12)

Yeah, I would say, you know, like I said, I, I, I am somebody that's like, okay, follows the rules. So I was like, I'm 45. I need to get my colonoscopy. So, you know, talk to your doctors about that. And I would also say, you know, as I ref, I thought, oh, I don't have any symptoms. I'm going to be fine. And then when it happened, I could kind of look back and see, like, okay, there were changes happening. And I was kind of saying, oh, it's just stress, or it's just this or just that. So I would say, you know, if you feel something changing or different, like, ask your doctor and just talk to them and, like, ask questions. Because, you know, if we would have, you know, you could say, what if? But if, like, I would have gone in maybe a year earlier, it might have been a different situation. So just listening, I think listening to our bodies and when we. Something feels different are not right. Asking those questions.

Brandon Dickert (66:08)

Thank you so much, Sarah.

Chelsea Handler (66:10)

Yeah, Sarah, thank you so much. And like, again, back to the purpose. I think a lot about my purpose is like, I think a lot about just spreading light, you know, Like, I've been going through a really rough time recently. And every morning I'm like, and this is immaterial stuff, you know, stupid stuff, but just a fucking emotional toll it's taken on me. And I have just, like, every morning I'm like, okay, try again today. Try again. To be light, to be other people's, like, get out of your own problems and be other people's light. Like, demonstrate light. And that's not to say that's not what I'm saying to you. That's what I say to myself. But you can do the same thing with your situation, to demonstrate grace, love, gratitude to all of the people that you come into, like, contact with and make that a daily practice. And there's purpose in that. That's immeasurable.

Katherine (67:02)

Yeah. Thank you.

Chelsea Handler (67:03)

Yeah. So we wish you well, sending you lots of love. Thank you for calling it.

Katherine (67:09)

Thank you.

Chelsea Handler (67:09)

Okay. Bye, Sarah.

Katherine (67:11)

Bye.

Chelsea Handler (67:12)

Okay, we're gonna take a break. Tim and I are getting married. And we'll be right back after the big game. Like everyone else, I had opinions about the commercials because of course I did. And there was one that I couldn't stop thinking about from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school, not in some overpriced produced movie scene way, but in a way that felt very real and very relatable. And as someone who is Jewish, I can tell you those moments are not small, even when people try to treat them that way. What the ad captured so well is that anti Semitism doesn't always show up yelling. Sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it's casual, and the impact is still huge. The response in the ad wasn't perfect or dramatic. It was human, which, honestly, is what can actually make a difference. So if you saw the Blue Square alliance commercial during the big game, I hope you really watched it. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is an easy way to say you noticed and that you care. You can also learn more by following anduptojewishhate on Instagram or TikTok or by visiting stand upto jewish hate dot org. If you're looking for a wine that's not just delicious, but also a total crowd pleaser, let me introduce you to Josh Sellers. This California wine brand has over a dozen award winning wines. From crisp Sauvignon Blancs to velvety Merlots. Josh Cellars has the perfect wine for every occasion. Serving up a juicy steak at your next barbecue. Josh Sellers Cabernet Sauvignon is the perfect pairing. Unwinding with friends after a long week. You can't go wrong with their Pinot Grigio. With so many delicious wines to choose from, Josh Cellars has something for everyone. Josh Cellars wines are made for sharing with those who matter most to you. And each wine is made to exacting standards. So no matter which varietal you choose, you can be confident it will be well balanced and delicious. Josh Cellars is a proud sponsor of Dear Chelsea. Visit www.joshcellars.com Chelsea and join the Wine Club to get 20% off. Please drink responsibly.

Sarah (69:12)

It is a new year, new us. And why not new year, new dogs? The dogs need to be healthier as well. Well, I have the same conversation with myself about my furry babies, Biggie and Smalls. This is why they love Just Food for dogs. Real fresh, 100% human grade food ingredients you can pronounce and recognize. Beef, sweet potatoes, green beans. Are you getting hungry? Well, so are your furry babies. Choosing dog food is very confusing and we don't spend as much time on it as we do for ourselves. Every brand claims to be fresh and natural and healthy. Healthy. So you have to tune out the marketing and listen to the experts. Just Food for Dogs is the number one vet recommended fresh dog food. If you are cleaning up your act this year, do the same for your dog. They deserve the best, just like you do. Go to justfood for dogs.com 50% off your first box. You are welcome.

Chelsea Handler (70:04)

Let's be real. We all want to look a little younger without a visit to a surgeon, lying about our age, or pretending we suddenly drink more water. That's why Plexaderm is taking the beauty world by storm. Millions have tried it and not to mention it as a 4.0 review on Amazon. Why? It's because it works. So say goodbye to dreaded puffy under eye bags, wrinkles and crow's feet. With Plexaderm, your skin can look years younger in minutes and it lasts up to 10 hours. 10 hours? Seriously? Influencers rave about it. Fans can't get enough and we are just obsessed. Elle magazine even gave it their Editor's Choice Award for Best Instant Wrinkle Filler 2020. Basically an official stamp of approval from the pros. The best part? The appearance of fine lines. Wrinkles under eye bags dramatically reduced in 10 minutes or less. No surgery, no gimmicks. Just results that last. So join the millions of users and try it now for only $14.95 with free shipping. Visiting plexaderm.com Chelsea that's plexaderm.com Chelsea.

Sydney (71:12)

And.

Chelsea Handler (71:13)

We'Re back with Chelsea and Tim Gunn. What if I change my name to Chelsea Gunn?

Tim Gunn (71:19)

I love it.

Chelsea Handler (71:19)

Chelsea Guns.

Tim Gunn (71:21)

I could be Tim Handler.

Chelsea Handler (71:22)

Tim Handler. Yeah, that sounds more mellifluous actually. That's got a nice ring to it. Tim. Okay, Tim, this isn't on our.

Tim Gunn (71:30)

Actually, listen to this. Chelsea.

Sydney (71:31)

What?

Tim Gunn (71:32)

We could be gun handler.

Chelsea Handler (71:35)

Chelsea and Tim Gun Handler. And that you have to use both of our names when addressing either one of us. I like that. Yeah.

Brandon Dickert (71:41)

You have to get your concealed carry permit.

Chelsea Handler (71:44)

Okay. Tim Gun. This was absolutely delightful. I loved having you on. Please come back anytime you want. And thank you for sharing everything that you shared today.

Tim Gunn (71:54)

Oh, well, thank you for having me on the show, and I love being here with you and Catherine and I would love to return.

Chelsea Handler (72:01)

Okay, well, we'll definitely have you back.

Tim Gunn (72:04)

Can't wait.

Brandon Dickert (72:05)

Word of the week, Bilingual edition. Our first word of the week is do Ducharce verb. Spanish.

Chelsea Handler (72:14)

To shower.

Brandon Dickert (72:15)

Ducharsay is Chelsea's Spanglish for you'd better shower your swamp ass if you're wearing Athleisure Ducharsay. Our second word of the week is Bon Chance Franglish for good luck. Bon Chance is a perfect way to wish someone luck if you're a refined gentleman like Tim.

Chelsea Handler (72:40)

Okay, guys, I am officially on my high and Mighty Tour. February 19th, Madison, Wisconsin. February 20th is Milwaukee, Wisconsin. February 21st, Detroit, Michigan. February 22nd, Rama, Ontario. That's Canada for those of you who don't speak Canadian. March 13, Cleveland, Ohio. March 14, Columbus, Ohio. March. March 15, Cincinnati, Ohio. And then March 20 is Denver, Colorado. March 27, Portland, Maine. March 28, Providence, Rhode Island. March 29, Springfield, Massachusetts. April 10 is Chicago. I'll be at the Chicago Theater. April 11, Indianapolis, Indiana. April 12, Louisville, Kentucky. April 16 is Albuquerque, New Mexico. April 17 is Mesa, Arizona. April 23 is Kansas City, Missouri. April 24 is St. Louis, Missouri. April 25 is Minneapolis, Minnesota. April 30, Nashville, Tennessee. May 1 is Charlotte, North Carolina. May 2 is Durham, North Carolina. May 6, I'm doing Netflix is a joke festival. I will be in Los Angeles. That is a new announcement along with Atlantic City. May 15th, Saratoga, California. May 16th, Monterey, California. May 17th, Modesto, California. And then June 4th, Portchester, New York. June 5th is Boston, Mass. And June 12th is Portland, Oregon. And then Seattle is June 13th, so suck on that, everybody. Go to chelseahandler.com for tickets.

Brandon Dickert (74:14)

If you want advice from Chelsea, write in to dearchelsea podcastmail.com Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartMedia. Follow Chelsea on all Socials, Chelsea Handler, and find Catherine on TikTok lashkadabra. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brandon Dickert executive producer Kathryn Law. Find full video episodes and minisodes now on Netflix and get tickets to see Chelsea live@chelseahandler.com.

Chelsea Handler (74:42)

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