Live Every Day Like It’s Your First with Suleika Jaouad

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Dear Chelsea

Episode: "Live Every Day Like It’s Your First with Suleika Jaouad"

Release Date: April 23, 2026
Host: Chelsea Handler
Guest: Suleika Jaouad (journalist & author)
Producer/Co-Host: Katherine (Catherine Law)

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Episode Overview

This moving episode of Dear Chelsea centers on resilience, creative transformation, the power of journaling, and making meaning from hardship. Chelsea Handler and Suleika Jaouad—author of Between Two Kingdoms and The Book of Alchemy—share a deeply personal and inspiring conversation about surviving life’s crises, the gifts of vulnerability, and practical advice for personal growth. The show balances humor with heartfelt candor, including vibrant anecdotes about love, illness, journaling, and even dog rescue. Listener questions also guide an honest discussion about intimacy and caregiving post-crisis and overcoming journaling blocks.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Suleika’s Story: From Crisis to Creativity

• Diagnosis & Unexpected Detour
  • Suleika describes being diagnosed with leukemia at 22, right as she planned to embark on an ambitious career as a war correspondent.
    • “I have whatever that missing gene is when it comes to fear. If there’s a building on fire, my instinct is to run toward it... I’m most comfortable in crisis.” (09:19)
• Letting Go of Productivity Equals Worth
  • Initially, Suleika tried to “muscle through” her limitations by planning to read the Western canon while hospitalized—but found herself instead bingeing Grey’s Anatomy and grappling with her inability to meet old ambitions.
    • “For as long as I can remember, I’ve had this ambition monster at me. Suddenly, I found myself, for the first time ever, stuck in bed without the possibility of doing anything.” (11:13)
  • The forced pause led to an “important course correction,” learning to focus on small, meaningful moments rather than relentless achievement.
    • “What does success feel like for me today? The answers...were really different.” (14:32)

2. Journaling as Healing, Reflection, and Art

• Journaling Origins & Personal Practice
  • Suleika began keeping a journal during treatment, framing herself as a “reporter in a different kind of conflict zone.”
    • “While I wasn’t going to be a war correspondent in the way I’d hoped, I could report from the front lines of my hospital bed.” (17:11)
  • Emphasizes the importance of honesty and privacy in journaling.
    • “You want to write it assuming no one's ever gonna fucking read it.” – Chelsea (06:24)
  • Shares practical tips: write by hand if possible, even try with the non-dominant hand, and keep the bar low—"one word, a doodle, or a mark in the margin" counts. (29:19)
• The 100 Day Project & Family Creativity
  • Inspired by designer Michael Bierut, Suleika committed to 100 days of journaling, with no perfectionism—a transformative experience.
    • “I decided I was gonna write every day, but it didn’t matter what it was...And I needed that accountability of doing it with friends and family.” (30:12)
  • Her whole family joined: her mom painted tiles (assembled into a “shield”), her dad wrote 101 childhood memories.
    • “It was like this really beautiful project, and I’ve done many since.” (34:29)

3. Alchemy: Pain into Meaningful Growth

• Defining Alchemy
  • Suleika sees “alchemy” as transforming hardship (“lead”) into something meaningful (“gold”).
    • “I’m obsessed with alchemy, this idea of transforming something base or worthless, like lead, into something precious, like gold.” (35:39)
• Family Dynamics: From Toughness to Tenderness
  • Her family’s initial impulse was to be stoic during illness; now she champions vulnerability and emotional honesty over “tough skin.”
    • “I’m no longer a proponent of tough skin...what I realized...was that we wanted to have tender skin.” (36:12)
• On Survival and Personal Change
  • Reflects on the Hemingway quote, “The world breaks you and you are stronger in the broken places,” and Viktor Frankl’s wisdom on agency.
    • “Lots of people go through illness...It doesn’t just automatically turn you into a better person.” (20:30)
    • “There’s a space between stimulus and response...and in that response is your freedom and growth.” (20:30)
• Life After Crisis
  • Confronting mortality changed her relationship with time.
    • “We move through time as though time is infinite. Especially at 22...But, it goes by like this. And while I may live a little closer to that truth, it's the case for all of us.” (21:23)

4. Love, Intimacy, and Partnership

• Relationship Evolution
  • Suleika discusses reconnecting with her now-husband Jon Batiste after a major breakup and describes the openness, patience, and flexibility required, especially concerning chronic illness, infertility, and grief.
    • “He would come into my apartment and I’d be crying over my ex, and he'd say, 'Of course you're crying over your ex…’” (38:28)
    • “He said to me, ‘There are many ways to have a family.’” (41:40)
• Marriage Anxiety & Redefining Partnership
  • Both Suleika and Chelsea bond over having once dreaded or rejected the idea of marriage, tying their fears to feminist upbringings and a desire for independence.
    • “There were a lot of important things [my mom] was passing on...but...felt like the math of it didn’t work. How to do that and also...be a wife or...mother.” (47:46)
  • They celebrate building relationships “their own way.”
    • “I think a relationship is something you co-create. It doesn’t have to look like the thing your parents had or what people tell you it should look like.” (52:39)

5. Journaling and Vulnerability: Listener Advice

• Caller Tara: Intimacy After Caregiving
  • Listener Tara describes burnout after caring for her husband through medical crises, now feeling pressured in their intimate life (64:49). The hosts and Suleika:
    • Normalize her experience and encourage her to validate her own exhaustion.
    • Recommend couples therapy (“car maintenance”) and stress the ongoing invisible work of caregivers.
      • “Caregiver burnout is very real...it's only once the crisis was past that [caregivers] were able to take inventory of what had happened, of the exhaustion, the cumulative traumas.” – Suleika (68:18)
    • Suggest practical communication tools: writing letters/voice notes instead of having all conversations live.
    • Producer Katherine notes, “Three times a week is above average for a couple that's been together five years. You're doing great.” (71:14–71:28)
    • Playfully suggest “kink” as a way to connect practical needs and intimacy. (73:20–73:39)
• Listener Brittany: The Fear of Private Writing
  • Brittany asks how to journal honestly when fearing others might read her writing.
    • Suleika shares a middle school story of a journal being exposed, and recommends lockboxes, tearing up entries, or painting over them to ensure privacy. (78:54–79:17)
    • Encourages deep honesty, referencing, “If you want to write a good book, write what you don’t want others to know about you. If you want to write a great book, write what you don’t want to know about yourself.”
      • “Journaling, when you’re doing it deeply, requires you to sometimes write things you don’t want to know about yourself.” (82:16)

6. Living with Recurrence and Legacy

• On Living with Uncertainty and Illness
  • Suleika reveals she is not in remission, but her relationship to life feels healthier than ever.
    • “Even though my prognosis may be worse than it’s ever been, my relationship to my illness – but also my life in general – is healthier than it’s ever been.” (85:20)
  • Pushes back on “Live every day as if it’s your last”—calls it exhausting and unsustainable.
    • “I've come to believe that is the worst advice...I’ve had to shift to a gentler mindset of living every day as if it’s your first, which is to say waking up with a sense of curiosity and wonder and playfulness.” (86:54)
• Finding Joy in Small Things
  • Adopts senior dogs as a form of daily happiness—and a humorous “Oscar weekend dog rescue” tradition.
    • “I'm veering dangerously close to crazy dog lady territory, but...there's a lot of joy in coming home to a group of dogs.” (56:04–56:45)
    • “Not because it makes sense...But because it makes you happy.” (88:32)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Vulnerability and Honesty in Journaling

“You want to write it assuming no one’s ever gonna fucking read it.”
— Chelsea Handler (06:24)

“Journaling, when you’re doing it deeply, requires you to sometimes write things you don't want to know about yourself.”
— Suleika Jaouad (82:16)

On Surviving Hardship

“The world breaks you and you are stronger in the broken places... People don’t just automatically turn into better persons after hardship.”
— Suleika Jaouad (20:30)

On Living in the Present

“I’ve had to shift to a gentler mindset of living every day as if it’s your first, which is to say waking up with a sense of curiosity and wonder and playfulness that little kids do so easily.”
— Suleika Jaouad (86:54)

On Relationships & Individuality

“I think a relationship is something you co-create. It doesn’t have to look like the thing your parents had…”
— Suleika Jaouad (52:39)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Personal introduction, gratitude journaling talk: 06:04–07:55
• Discussing Suleika’s diagnosis and reframing life: 10:19–15:34
• Journaling practice and 100 Day Project: 27:19–34:54
• Alchemy, family, vulnerability: 35:39–37:19
• Relationship with Jon Batiste & thoughts on marriage: 38:28–53:48
• Dog rescue adventures: 53:48–58:54
• Listener question: Caregiving, intimacy, & couple advice: 63:01–74:03
• Listener question: Honest journaling: 78:31–84:54
• Closing reflections on living with illness & finding daily joy: 85:20–89:20

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Final Takeaways

• Resilience doesn’t require stoicism—it thrives on honesty, vulnerability, and finding joy in the moment.
• Journaling is a powerful tool for self-knowledge, healing, and creativity—make it your own, keep expectations compassionate, and protect your privacy.
• Relationships grow through transparent communication and creative partnership—even in the face of chronic illness or shifting life circumstances.
• Living with uncertainty is difficult, but small pleasures and authentic curiosity carry transformative power. 'Live every day as if it’s your first.'

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Books Mentioned:

• Between Two Kingdoms by Suleika Jaouad
• The Book of Alchemy and The Alchemy Journal by Suleika Jaouad

Featured Project:

• American Symphony (Netflix/Obamas’ production)

Contact:
Send listener questions to [e-mail]

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Transcript

[Chelsea Handler]

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pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks any questions? That's why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, each episode features real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you see most, breaking down the questions you wish you'd asked from which meds may not mix well to what vaccines you need before a big trip. They will bust myths, decode trends, and share practical advice that you can actually use. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and it's about more than just awareness. It's about actually taking that next step and getting support if you need it. But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive, they're not sure it's going to work, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system. And that's exactly what Rula is built to fix. RULA makes therapy feel a lot more approachable and honestly, a lot more human. Find a therapist who actually fits your needs, not just whoever's available. And with insurance, sessions average around $15 copay, which makes it feel way more doable for a lot of people. You can sign up in just a few minutes, get matched with the right provider, and even book something as soon as the next day. No jumping through hoops, no confusion, just real help when you're ready for it. And it's not just about starting. Rula helps you stay consistent and actually make progress because taking care of your mental health isn't a one time thing. It's something you build into your life during Mental Health Awareness Month and beyond. If you've been thinking about therapy, don't talk yourself out of it. This is a really easy way to take that first step. So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com that's r u l a.com to find a therapist the easy way. Okay, for the High and Mighty tour people, we are rocking and rolling. These are the shows we have coming up.

[Sponsor Announcer]

April 23 is Kansas City, Missouri. April 24 is St. Louis, Missouri. April 25 is Minneapolis. April 30 Nashville.

[Chelsea Handler]

May 1 Charlotte, North Carolina.

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May 2 is Durham, North Carolina. May 6 in Los Angeles at the

[Chelsea Handler]

Saban Theater for Netflix is a joke.

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May 15th I will be in Saratoga. May 16th Monterey. May 17th Modesto, I will be in Port Chester on June 4th.

[Chelsea Handler]

And we added two new dates to the High and Mighty Tour. On June 3rd I am coming to Saratoga Springs, New York City. So pre sale has begun for that. And then on June 28th I am coming to Nantucket.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And pre sale has started on that. June 5th I will be in Boston, Massachusetts.

[Chelsea Handler]

June 12th I will be in Portland, Oregon. And June 13th I will be in Seattle, Washington. June 27th it's going to be Hyannis, Massachusetts.

[Sponsor Announcer]

August 6th is Red Bank, New Jersey. August 7th I'm coming home to Montclair, New Jersey.

[Chelsea Handler]

August 15th is Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

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September 18th Santa Barbara. September 19th San Diego. September 25th I will be at the Beacon in New York City. September 26 I will be in Philadelphia. September 27 New Haven, Connecticut. October 2 Atlanta, Georgia. October 3 Baltimore, Maryland. October 4 Saginaw, Michigan. October 9 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. October 10 Toronto, Canada. October 16 I'm coming to Boise, Idaho. October. October 17 Spokane, Washington. November 7 I will be in San Francisco and November 13 Salt Lake City. November 20 Austin. November 21 Houston, Texas.

[Chelsea Handler]

November 22 Irving, Texas. December 5 I am adding a second show in Denver for those of you

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who couldn't get tickets to the first one. And on December 6th I will be

[Chelsea Handler]

coming to Vancouver, Canada. Okay, those are all my dates.

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For the High and Mighty door go

[Chelsea Handler]

to Chelsea handler.com for tickets. Hello, Katherine.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Hi, Chelsea. How's the tour going?

[Chelsea Handler]

Tour is going. It's a lot with Yamanika. It's a full time job having her

[Suleika Jawad]

on tour with me.

[Katherine (Producer)]

It's kind of a nanny job situation.

[Chelsea Handler]

It's basically I've turned into a nanny. She slept in my room again. I opened that door accidentally one weekend when she had overbooked her double booked herself. And now she once a weekend wants to sleep together, which, you know, is once too many times for me. So I don't know. We're gonna have to really reconfigure this weekend. I have Kansas City, which I'm so excited about. I haven't been back to Kansas City in a while. I'm going to Kansas City Thursday night, and then I have Minneapolis and I have St. Louis, so I have lots of good stuff. Oh, nice.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Actually, I think our minisode callers for this week are gonna be seeing you in Minneapolis, so you'll find it.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, good. Oh, good.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

I can't wait to go to Minneapolis and give them some love too. They need it.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Yeah, yeah, That'll be coming out tomorrow. So everybody listen into that minisode. It's very cute and funny.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. About the couples counseling.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Yes, some couples counseling. Chelsea, I have a question for you that's related to the guest for this week. So I've been trying to do the gratitude journal, and it feels a little stiff to me to just be like, I am grateful for this. I am grateful for this. Like, how are you writing it? Is that what you're doing, like, listing things? Are you getting more creative with it?

[Chelsea Handler]

That's funny. I'm reading another book called, like, mind, mind, mind your body. This new book, which is also talks about journaling and like, the big which, which we talk about in this episode with our guest is like, you want to write it freestyle, knowing, like, I think anything that prevents us from this isn't to your point exactly. But, like, you want to write it assuming no one's ever gonna fucking read it. You know, like, bad Bruno was over this morning and he's like, I'm writing it as like, you know, to vent. He goes, so I delete it every day too, because I'm like, I don't want anyone to ever see this. But that's how I'm able to be my most honest self. And I think that is, like, I do think that stops everyone from being fully honest. Cause you, like, you want to be grateful just for the things that you're supposed to be grateful for in case anybody ever reads your gratitude list. Like, that's how I think about it. So I do think it's a little stiff, but, I mean, I do it just more of an exercise. And I do write, or I sometimes do it in Spanish, and I write soy aggre de sido or, you know, or estoy agridecido practicamos.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

Like, just to do it. I don't know, but it is kind of perfunctory. You're just doing. I don't say the same things every day, but I do just go through. Mine is like, how are you gonna make today special? And name three words to describe yourself and what are you grateful for? So it's like, three different things. But, yeah, I guess it can be. I mean, I think if you're really getting into journaling, you really do have to get a journal and just, like, let it rip and then put it in a fucking safe.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Yeah, yeah. See, I have, like, my journal journal that I've been trying to get back into. And then I have, like, my little gratitude journal, which is my little, like, daily. My daily driver. Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

It's really hard for me to write long form in handwriting. Like, I've lost that. Like, I'm on. I'm on a computer. You know what I mean? Like, that's where. So it's.

[Caller Tara]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

I don't know. I've gotta get into it, though, because everything I'm reading about it, it's everywhere I go. So that's a sign. Is that.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Do they talk about that in your Mind Body book that you're reading right now, too?

[Chelsea Handler]

Mind You'd. Body. Yeah. It's a lot about meditation and journaling. So, like, just to, like, connect with yourself, you know, to. To connect our conscious to our unconscious.

[Caller Tara]

Yeah. Okay.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Ooh, and I love our guest today. She's perfect for this conversation.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Oh, well, she's very exciting.

[Chelsea Handler]

She wrote the book Between Two Kingdoms, and her new book is called the Book of Alchemy. So please welcome Suleika Jaw. Well, I am so thrilled to be sitting down and talking with you, because first of all, Katherine's here. This is my producer. She's in la. Catherine's here. She's gonna chime in whenever, so just so you're aware.

[Suleika Jawad]

Amazing.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Periodically.

[Chelsea Handler]

Periodically with her own questions. I first became familiar with you with your last book, Between Two Kingdoms, which was so beautiful. A friend of mine handed it to me and was like, you have to read this book. You're gonna love it. And I was blown away by your story. And so. And just your attitude, the way that you dealt with everything in such a graceful way, at least in the book, that's how it came across. And I'm sure you had your moments that maybe weren't so graceful. But then I started following you on Instagram and I didn't realize you were married to Jon Batiste. And so then I started watching your relationship from afar and I was like, these two are such a magical couple. And not an Instagram magical couple. Yeah, yeah, a magical couple. And there's magic there. And so I've just been so blown away by your perseverance, your fortitude, all of it. I just find it so inspiring and such a wonderful story to be sharing with people. You know, anyone going through something like this, which I don't know anybody else who's gone through something like this, but I know there are people out there that have. So let's just start with. I know you have a new book out. We're gonna talk about that. I've read it. But I wanna start talking about Between Two Kingdoms and when you found you were able to start to write about your experience.

[Suleika Jawad]

So I'm someone who was never interested in writing in the first person. When I graduated from college, I wanted to be a war correspondent. I have whatever that missing gene is when it comes to fear. Like, if there's a building on fire, my instinct is to run toward it.

[Chelsea Handler]

It's like an amygdala that you're. Yeah, yeah, that's your fear part.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. Like, I'm most comfortable in crisis. Like, if you're going through shit, I'm the person to call. Like, I get calm when there's chaos.

[Chelsea Handler]

Okay.

[Suleika Jawad]

Everyday normal life a little harder for me to manage. I could have been like an ER doctor in a different life, but when I got sick myself, you know, I was 22 years old, diagnosed with leukemia. Diagnosed with leukemia. And.

[Chelsea Handler]

And about to begin your life.

[Suleika Jawad]

Right, Exactly. It's like, what do they say in college graduation speeches? Like, you're going to be entering the real world. And that was the goal. The goal was independence. The goal was to find my way. The goal was to do what all my other friends were doing, which was launching their careers and traveling and all the other, you know, big and small milestones of early adulthood. And I, for as long as I can remember, have had this sort of ambition monster at me. And I had my one year plan and my five year plan and my ten year plan, et cetera, et cetera. And suddenly I found myself, for the first time ever, stuck in bed without the possibility of doing anything. And that was really hard for me. And it was really important for me because when you're a person who can easily, as I do, conflate productivity and momentum with a feeling of self worth and meaning, to be stripped away from the ability of doing anything is really hard and for me was really necessary. And so, in a weird kind of perverse way, it felt liberating to not have expectations of myself, to not have external expectations, and to not be able to do anything.

[Chelsea Handler]

So if you can recall, like, what was the period of time between your diagnosis and the acceptance of what you're talking about? Like, because initially you would think, okay, how are you gonna fix this? Like, I'm gonna do the chemo, I'm gonna do all the treatment, and I'm gonna be. You know, you have your plan for that. Right. Which also obviously doesn't go your way all the time. And. But I know you had a lot of support from your parents. You talk about that in the book. Your parents sound amazing. Yeah. What was the period of time between finding out about that and then accepting, okay, I'm not gonna be doing any of the things that I had planned on doing in the moment that I wanted to do them.

[Suleika Jawad]

Okay. So I remember so clearly the day I was admitted to the hospital right after my diagnosis. I was gonna be in the hospital for six weeks. And I packed a giant suitcase filled with books, and I told my professor, father, I'm going to use this time to read through the rest of the Western canon. And I had worn peace on my bedside table. And it's kind of absurd to me now because, of course, I didn't read any of those books. Instead, what I attempted to do was to set the world record for the number of Grey's Anatomy episodes watched consecutively. And I think it was this real reckoning with these new limitations. And at first, I bucked against those limitations. I tried to muscle through them. And at some point, after weeks and weeks of trying and failing and feeling even worse for failing than I already did, I realized I had to surrender to these new limitations.

[Chelsea Handler]

Was it like in a spiritual sense? Like, were you feeling that in a spiritual sense or in a pragmatic sense?

[Suleika Jawad]

Both, honestly, like, I had such limited energy that I could maybe do three things. Two or three hours worth of, you know, spending time with family or whatever it was that I was doing. And what that forced me to do was to figure out what was possible within those limitations. And to get really clear a reframe of what had been the central question, which is, you know, what does success look like? And a shift to a question of what does success feel like for me today? And the answers to those two questions were really different. It wasn't reading War and Peace. It was spending time with my family. It was laughing. It was watching something silly. It was not trying to do something big and ambitious, but something much quieter and just kind of following my curiosity without having a goal in mind.

[Chelsea Handler]

And I think that's applicable to so many people in so many different circumstances, not just if you are very sick in the hospital or going through treatment in the hospital. I think it's really important for all of us to sometimes be like, okay, today's not the day for me to be successful. Today's not the day for me to accomplish all of these ideas of what I believe accomplishment is. Sometimes you do need to lie in bed and watch Grey's Anatomy whether you are sick or not. Totally.

[Suleika Jawad]

And sometimes that's what success is for that day.

[Chelsea Handler]

Right, Right.

[Suleika Jawad]

And so that led me on this journey of not having goals, which, counterintuitively, was an important course correction. Because what I ended up doing was not trying to be a work correspondent, because I couldn't be a work correspondent. It was becoming friends with, like, my hilarious hospital neighbor Dennis, who was mounting a strike against the cafeteria because our meal trays kept coming up with the food's still frozen. It was, you know, getting to know my nurses and residents. If you've ever been sick, then you know that the nurses are the ones who run the show. And, you know, just writing in my journal just for myself, I remember, like, one of the first little anecdotes I wrote was about Grey's Anatomy, because a resident came to my room, and I said, does your life have any resemblance to the cast of Greys? And she was like, we have just as much sex, but everyone is significantly less attractive. And I wrote that down in my journal, and it made me laugh. And suddenly, the hospital was not this grim, depressing place that I was forced to be in. It was a place where a lot of life was happening and a lot of story was unfolding. And I realized in keeping this journal that I was using it as a kind of reporter's paddle. And that while I wasn't going to be a war correspondent in the way that I'd hoped, I could report from the front lines of my hospital bed from a very different kind of conflict zone. And so that's how I started Writing about that experience, and I love that

[Chelsea Handler]

because it's so emblematic of life. Like, everywhere you look, there's life happening.

[Suleika Jawad]

Totally.

[Chelsea Handler]

And sometimes we are so wrapped up in our own lives that we don't look around. You know, we're so consumed. I know that I felt that way the last couple weeks. I'm just like, oh, my God, what's wrong? Like, I can't even. You know, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to stop and look around and, like, look at people, take them in. You know, make eye contact, make sure you're smiling and saying thank you and please and all of the basic things. But beyond that, there's so much more to look at. Whenever you are in an environment that you're unfamiliar with, there's so much life happening.

[Suleika Jawad]

And while it's important to have goals, sometimes the goals can distract you from the unexpected things that are unfolding in the meantime, from the more interesting story or the more interesting goal that may not be part of the plan, that may not make sense, but ends up actually being the thing that opens up a whole new world. And that was it for me. I'm still a really private person, but in writing in the first person, I realized, you know, as uncomfortable and exposing as it felt, there was so much grist there. There's so much I wanted to talk about. Not specifically about illness, but about things like early menopause, which I went through when I was 24 years old as a result of chemo, about, you know, the impact on relationships, about how you keep yourself sane when you're navigating an insane healthcare system. Like, there was just so much there. And it was that important lesson of, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to travel far to find an interesting story. There's always something interesting unfolding right in front of you.

[Chelsea Handler]

Right? And even though your story is very interesting, I mean, you being in and out of the hospital as many times, you were so many close calls. I mean, that book was just astounding. I couldn't believe when I was reading your first book, I was just like, I can't believe this woman is alive to tell this story. So I can't imagine the gratitude and the depth in which you came out of that with. The depth that you came out of it with, to become such a person that has survived something like that. And also for your parents. I mean, watching your parents care for you, watching how much it must have. How difficult it must have been for them. To watch you go through all of that, that really had a huge impact to think about. To think about what it must be like to be parents and have your child be in that situation was really heartbreaking.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. And there's that old Hemingway saw of the world breaks you and you are stronger in the broken places. I don't think that sense of gratitude just naturally happens. I don't believe that people necessarily go through something difficult and emerge better and braver and stronger and wiser for what they've been through. Viktor Frankl, there's a quote attributed to him that says there's a space between stimulus and response, and in that space is how you choose to respond. And then that response is your freedom and growth. So lots of people go through illness. Lots of people go through hard things. It doesn't just automatically turn you into a better person.

[Chelsea Handler]

Into a better person.

[Suleika Jawad]

My friend Max said, who is a friend of mine who I met in treatment, who's also in treatment. He said, you know, just because you have cancer doesn't mean you can't also be an asshole. But I think those moments when you get brought to your knees open up an invitation for reckoning about what is working and what is not and what your priorities are and what it means to actually live a good and meaningful life. Because I think for so many of us, you know, we move through time as though time is infinite. Especially at 22, I was like, I have time to figure out who I am, time to figure out what I want to do. And I think the biggest shift for me was that relationship to time. We're not here for that long. It goes by like this. And while I may live a little closer to that truth, it's the case for all of us. And you have to ask yourself those questions. Otherwise it's too easy to be swept up in the busyness of life and to kind of tumble into your. To dos and into every day headfirst without actually taking a moment to get still and to ask yourself what it is you really want. I mean, you have this great framing in your memoir, and I think it was a Viktor Frankl quote, too.

[Chelsea Handler]

It's just so funny that you just said that Viktor Frankl quote, because yesterday I was in an interview and somebody read that quote to me, no way. And I was being interviewed, and they read that exact quote that you just assumed. And I was like, God, Viktor Frankl must be in the room with us. He's, like, following us around. And with pleasure, I invite him to stay. I need a little bit more Viktor Frankl in my life.

[Suleika Jawad]

Totally.

[Chelsea Handler]

Such a beautiful. He has so many beautiful quotes and yes, everything you're saying is so beautiful. And you're so eloquent. Like I just love your voice. Like I just. I wish you would just do voiceover for all these books, audio books. Because I could listen to your voice for a long time.

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[Chelsea Handler]

there is a constant challenge getting things done fast and done well. Why not have both? That's why Wix Harmony stands out. It's an AI website builder that helps create a website quickly without compromising your vision. A fully functional site can be built for any business just by describing the ide, and you can choose to chat with AI or edit everything manually to get it exactly right. There's also Aria, an AI agent available to answer questions or help complete tasks. And here's what makes it even better. Aria doesn't just live in a chat box. You can click anywhere on your site and ask her to make changes instantly. It's these details that make creating with Wix Harmony feel seamless. Join millions of businesses already using Wix and try Wix Harmony for [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com Harmony this show is brought to you by BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month, a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a journey. Some days feel good and Others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it out all on your own. But the truth is, no one has all of the answers. Having someone with you to listen, to understand and to support you can make all the difference. This month. Check in with yourself and understand where you are right now. If you've been feeling overwhelmed, stay stuck, anxious or unsure. It's okay. Those feelings are more common than we think, and we don't have to navigate them alone. That's why there's BetterHelp. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] dearchelsea that's betterhelp.com dearchelsea. You're probably hearing a lot about longevity right now. I know I am and I know I care about it. And when it comes to skin, aging is linked with a decline in cellular energy. As that energy decreases, skin doesn't regenerate or renew itself as efficiently. And that's when you start to see dullness, fine lines and loss of firmness. Obagi Medical has been trusted by dermatologists for over 35 years. Their newly launched facial serum new gen cellular renewal serum is powered by NAD and supports skin's natural renewal processes at the skin cell level. In clinical testing, skin appeared up to

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[Chelsea Handler]

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[Chelsea Handler]

I wanna ask you, you talk in your book, your first book and then the book of alchemy. And you also have the alchemy journal that also was released recently. You talk in your book about this period of time in your life. That's when you started to really journal. You committed to saying, like, I'm going to write no matter how I feel in the hospital every day, I'm gonna start writing. And that's how you began. And that's where this book came from, right? The Between Two kingdoms.

[Suleika Jawad]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Handler]

And so I think when you make a commitment like that, when I started reading your book, I'm like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this 100 day commitment. Because the book of Alchemy is about committing to journaling for 100 days and then it's a series. You talk a lot about why, you know, in the beginning of the book about why you started journaling, how you started journaling, what it's given to you. And then there's lots of prompts from lots of famous authors about why they journal and what their prompts are, which are beautiful because it really gives you an avenue to really pick your own lane and figure out how to give back to yourself in a meaningful way. I think when you talk about something like journaling, and I love what you said because this has been my never ending question. Can you write it or, I mean can you type it into your phone or do you have to write it? And you talk about how important it is to you personally to write it, to feel the pen in your hand. And there's even a suggestion there to write with your non dominant hand, which I thought was like, oh wow, what an interesting way. Cause then you're really out of your head.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

You know, you're really trying to like write with the hand that's non dominant and like that's an interesting way to get out. But you could also paint. You could. There's so many beautiful suggestions in this book. So talk to me a little bit about the impact that you felt from actually, and I know you've taught this in your classes, the impact that you felt personally after completing like 100 days of doing that.

[Suleika Jawad]

So I am someone who is really bad at being consistent. I feel like you're different. You're probably someone who wakes up and works out every day. I have never been that person. I am the person who like starts not just strong but like in an extreme way for about two to three weeks. Then I drop off, then I never do it again. And that was true of journaling before this period. Like I was the person who would like, buy a beautiful journal with the intention of filling it out, write in the first couple of pages, stop, then buy a new journal because that journal was ruined and proof of my failure, and start all over again. And so I really liked the hundred day project, which came at the suggestion of a friend when I was in that first summer of just being in such a low down place.

[Chelsea Handler]

Is it Michael Beirut, right?

[Suleika Jawad]

Michael Bierut? Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

Okay.

[Suleika Jawad]

And I liked it. I was hesitant about it because I didn't think I could actually get through the hundred days and I didn't need further proof of failure. So I knew I had to keep the bar really low. And I decided I was gonna write every day, but it didn't matter what it was. It could be five pages, it could be one word, it could be a doodle, it could be a mark in the margins, but that I was gonna do it every day. And I needed that accountability of doing it with friends and family. But what was interesting in the course of doing it every single day was that of course there were days where I felt like I had nothing to say, but. But often it was, especially on those days where if I pushed through that resistance, I realized it was when I needed it most. And so at the end of that hundred day project, I had a body of work. And it's kind of amazing when you do one tiny thing every day, the way in which it can accrue. And I not only felt the satisfaction of having completed it, but what it showed me was that within these very constrained circumstances that I found myself in, there was actually a lot I could be doing right there from my bed. I got really inspired by the long lineage of artists and writers and musicians who found themselves bedridden for one reason or another. Frida Kahlo is a famous one who, when she got into an accident and found herself bedridden, started painting these self portraits that ended up making her one of the most famous artists of all time. But what it also made me realize was that I had always loved to write. I knew this. I didn't quite know that it could be a career. But I think in that fallow period where I was just doing something for myself for the first time, I was following the thread of my curiosity and my intuition without any expectation of it going somewhere or becoming something. And that ended up leading me to the thing that I not only wanted to do, but could do. And so that the source material of that journal became my first ever writing gig, my first time being published, which was this New York Times column and video series called Life Interrupted. And that's a lesson I've learned again and again as someone who likes to be busy, who likes to constantly fill my days to the brim, that I need to schedule unstructured time to do things for myself just because I'm interested in them, but to do them with consistency or to do nothing at all. And that often the best ideas happen when you get quiet enough to notice what you're thinking or feeling or what's happening around you.

[Chelsea Handler]

And your parents did this with you?

[Suleika Jawad]

My parents did this with me. My mom painted a tile every day. She's a visual artist, and she assembled it into a shield and hung it above my bed and told me it had protective powers. And my dad, who grew up in the south of Tunisia, who rarely talks about his childhood, decided to write 101 and a nod to 1001 Arabian Nights childhood memories. And he ended up compiling them into a little stapled booklet for my brother and me. And so it was like this really beautiful project, and I've done many of them since, but especially, I think, in periods where I feel profoundly stuck, and my impulse is to just, like, force myself through it and muscle through. What it's taught me is that there's, like, a lot of interesting stuff to learn in the stuck place. And it's not actually the moment to force yourself forward, but to maybe sit in the uncertainty and to excavate what. Whatever is coming up.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. And to lean into that discomfort, in a sense. Right. To lean into the resistance of the moment. I think we live in a world now where we want instant results from things also. So we think, oh, we're gonna meditate for three days, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. It's over. It's like. Well, that's not really how it works exactly. It's a cumulative effect. And I think what you're talking about also is a cumulative.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, I think journaling, just like anything else. It's like going to the gym. You can't just go five times and reap the rewards. It's a muscle you have to build, and you have to push yourself through the period of resistance, through the period of exhaustion, and then you start to reap its rewards.

[Chelsea Handler]

It's so beautiful. It really is. It's so inspiring. I just want to, like. I mean, your parents must be so grateful to have this experience with you. You know, like, what a beautiful experience to share with both of your parents. What a beautiful project to share, even though the circumstances weren't beautiful. It is beautiful. You made something that could have been ugly and hard to think about into a beautiful experience.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's why I'm obsessed with alchemy, this idea of transforming something base or worthless, like lead, into something precious, like gold. And I think, especially in a moment of upheaval, there's an invitation to do that. But for us as a family, it was really transformative. I grew up in a pull yourself up by the bootstraps, have tough skin household. Both my parents are immigrants.

[Chelsea Handler]

Your dad's Tunisian, and your mom's Swiss, right?

[Suleika Jawad]

My mom's Swiss. Exactly. And when we first went through this, you know, the impulse was to be stoic, was to put on a brave face for each other, was to wait until we were alone to cry individually. And I'm no longer a proponent of tough skin. What I realized through that experience, not just myself, but as a family, was that we wanted to have tender skin. We wanted to feel the things that were happening to us. The heartbreak, the joy, the funny moments. Because there's a lot of things, it might sound strange to say that are funny about having cancer, that emerge.

[Chelsea Handler]

I believe that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

And more than feeling them, we wanted to be able to share them together. To not just put on our brave faces and to privately deal with our fears and our grief, but to talk about it because it was such a missed opportunity, not just for. For supporting each other, but for a depth of intimacy that I think when we're all trying to be tough, when we're all trying to be brave, gets lost.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating to think of. It's almost kind of like, you know, you want all the families that are unable to communicate healthfully, which is basically every family totally. Whatever our dynamics are, they're off, you know, totally. Like, if you have a great, fun family, that's great, but there's something off. I was thinking about this family that I admire so much and, like, they have so many siblings, and it's just joyful every time you go over there. And then I once went on vacation with them and I realized how fucked up their family was. Like, everyone was fighting. It was crazy chaos. And I was like, oh, God, this is everything. You know, you always look and you're like. But to go through an experience, like, where someone's, you know, life is on the line as a family and to actually level up to that experience is what you're describing. And. And it yields such beauty and such a great result. And then to top it off, I know you were in a relationship when that happened, when you were, you know, very sick. And that went on for, like, was it four years?

[Suleika Jawad]

Four years. Four years.

[Chelsea Handler]

And then your relationship ended and then you met John, who you already knew from band camp. Is that right?

[Suleika Jawad]

When we were teenagers, yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

Right. And so you guys. How did you guys reconnect again?

[Suleika Jawad]

We reconnected not long after I got out of treatment and that big heartbreak. And I was in a place. And frankly, for as long as I can remember, I always thought to myself, like, I'm not someone who's built for long term relationships. And I thought to myself, I Will either have no husband or I will have 10 husbands.

[Chelsea Handler]

That's exactly how I feel.

[Suleika Jawad]

And so when I met John, I was like, not only is this bad timing, I'm not ready for this. I'm still so sobbing every single day over this breakup that I've gone through. I'm a wreck physically. But I also love John because he was my friend, someone I'd known for a long time, and I certainly didn't want to put him through my chaos. And then there were other things, too. I was infertile. I was going through menopause. How. When do you bring that up? When you're dating someone new? At what point? All of it just sounded like a bad idea to. And John is someone who, for as long as I've known him, has been unlike anyone. But he was so good about it. Like, he'd come in. Into my apartment and I'd be crying over my ex, and he would say, of course you're crying over your ex. Not only were you together for as long as you were, but you lived through something so intense and so hard, it would be weird if you weren't crying for your ex. And it takes a particular kind of man to say that, to not feel threatened by it, to give you the space to grieve and to move forward. But even so, you know, we were together 10, 11 years before we got married. And I think John and this relationship, this marriage that we now have, has surprised me in every way.

[Chelsea Handler]

I mean, you must think of that as alchemy.

[Suleika Jawad]

It is alchemy, certainly my own personal alchemy when it comes to my understanding of myself and relationships. But I think any relationship requires acts of alchemy.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. And to have. I mean, he's such a huge. He's got magic all around him. You know, you just see him do his thing on stage or even when he's talking. Like, everything he does has just this kind of energy that is very unique. And it's easy to see that about him. And I can see that about you as well. So for those kind of. And they're not the same kind of energy. So for those two energies to come together is alchemy. And yes, it's true for all couples, but there's a certain magic surrounding you. I mean, I don't wanna put that on you, but I think you must feel that way too, to have met someone like that at the time in your life and to have it be so. Have someone that is such an understanding person, that is so gracious and is you know, not a lot of people would be understanding of watching another person cry about their relationship that ended when you're entering into a new one.

[Suleika Jawad]

Totally.

[Chelsea Handler]

Not a lot of people know how to give that space or are secure enough to be able to give that space. Certainly not a lot of men.

[Suleika Jawad]

And I remember, you know, like maybe three weeks into dating, I brought up the infertility piece and he said to me, there are many ways to make a family. Let me back up and just say for someone who is terrified of marriage and had very mixed feelings about it, the, the first week we started dating, he said to me, what are your intentions? Because just so you know, I'm not interested in dating unless there's a possibility of it leading to marriage. Which was actually so endearing to hear, you know, a man in his 20s say, and also a little scary. But about two or three weeks in, when I brought up the infertility piece, he said to me there are many ways to have a family. And he said, if we end up together, maybe that'll look like having kids. Maybe it'll look like fostering or adopting, or maybe it won't. And maybe we'll just be like the world's best aunties and uncles or godparents to our friends kids. So he got it. And that's not to say, you know, it was all magic the whole way through. But I think he's someone who puts in the work, who understands that people have their ups and downs, that we evolve and grow and who is there for every step of it and there to put in the work to make it work.

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[Chelsea Handler]

there is a constant challenge getting things done fast and done well. Why not have both? That's why Wix Harmony stands out. It's an AI website builder that helps create a website quickly without compromising your vision. A fully functional site can be built for any business just by describing the idea. Then you can choose to chat with AI or edit everything manually to get it exactly right. There's also Aria, an AI agent available to answer questions or help complete tasks. And here's what makes it even better. Aria doesn't just live in a chat box. You can click anywhere on your site and ask her to make changes instantly. It's these details that make creating with Wix Harmony feel seamless. Join millions of businesses already using Wix and try Wix Harmony for [e-mail] harmony that's wix.com harmony when it's time to get a new car, where do you start? Car shopping can be, honestly, a little overwhelming, but it should be fun. Buying your next car should be exciting. And it can be. And if you can remember one thing, it's cars.com My dad was a used car salesman, so I know way more than I want to about the car buying process. And that means I also know how to get a good deal. And that's also why I'm uniquely qualified to tell you how easy it is to find the Perfect car on Cars.com Cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you figure out what vehicle is right for you. Their site is super easy to use, and their advanced search filters allow you to filter over 2 million new and used cars to find the exact car that you're looking for. Every review is written by a real person reflecting a real life experience. That's how you know you can trust the dealerships. On cars.com cars.com features transparent deal ratings, including tools and badges to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal. Finding a good deal is pretty important, and by understanding how a car's price compares to others in the area, Cars.com will help seal the deal. So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with cars.com where to next? Longevity is getting a lot of attention right now, especially when it comes to what we put into our bodies. But one of the most visible signs of aging shows up on the skin and it's associated with a decline in cellular energy. That's why Obagi Medical approaches longevity skin care differently. As skin loses energy over time, it doesn't regenerate or renew itself as efficiently. And that's when you start to see changes like dullness, fine lines, and loss of firmness. Trusted by dermatologists for over 35 years, Obagi is innovating with skin longevity at the skin cell level. Their breakthrough new gen cellular renewal serum is formulated with their proprietary age control complex and powered by NAD to support skin's natural renewal processes and help address multiple visible signs of aging. Ooh la la. In clinical testing, skin appeared up to six years younger after 12 weeks of use. If you're looking to support skin longevity with a clinically backed approach, learn [e-mail] and new customers can use code CHELSEA15 for 15% off qualify terms apply. Why were you so scared of marriage?

[Suleika Jawad]

Hmm.

[Chelsea Handler]

Because your parents seem like they have a strong union. Like, where does it come from? Do you think?

[Suleika Jawad]

Wow, I mean, this is probably a much bigger conversation than can be contained in this time that we're spending together. You know, I think prior to getting sick was a bit of a hellraiser. My dad used to always say, I pity any man who falls in love with Suleika. And I think I just thought I was someone who there were a lot of things I wanted to do. I was someone who went through a lot of phases. And for whatever reason, maybe based on early dating experiences, what I took to be a fact was that the longer you are in a relationship with someone, the harder things get, the more distance that grows, the more incompatibilities that reveal themselves. And I didn't see myself wanting to or being able to sustain that over the course of an entire life. You know, I grew up with a mom who was very much a feminist, who never wanted to get married, who is very focused on her career, who ended up, you know, I was a surprise. And who ended up, much to her surprise, loving being a mother. But my whole life would say things to me like, focus on your career. Only have a kid if and when you've established your career and have enough momentum to sustain that. Be financially independent, never be dependent on a man. Like, I think there were a lot of important things that she was passing on to me, but that, for whatever reason, especially as someone who had a lot of ambitions and a lot of big dreams, felt like the math of it didn't work. How to do that and then also how to be A wife or maybe a mother. I also happened to graduate the year that Anne Marie Slaughter wrote that essay about Can Women have It All? And her conclusion at the end of it was no. You know, women of our generation were told, you can go to college, you can have the big career, and you can have the family. But the question of how to make that all work and the math of it was never clearly explained to most of us.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah, right. And I do think it's possible, but it's like a future idea, you know, when we figure out our roles, our gender roles in a more equal way, then that will be possible. But it is. I don't think it's impossible. I just think it's not as easily attainable as it will be in the future.

[Suleika Jawad]

Why do you think you thought you were someone who would either have no

[Chelsea Handler]

husbands or 10 for similar reasons to what you're describing? I was a hellraiser. And I am kind of still like, you seem like that's my next question for you and I want to answer your question, but like, do you still feel like a hellraiser?

[Suleika Jawad]

Definitely.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yes. Okay.

[Suleika Jawad]

And in intentionally directed way.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yes.

[Suleika Jawad]

I'm no longer a chaos hellraiser in every area of my life.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yes, exactly. So I feel that way too. Like there has been an evolution. And while I haven't been through anything like what you've been through, I've had my own kind of growth edges, you know, things that make you go, oh, like I wanna take all these great attributes and refine them instead of having them be. I don't wanna be in attack mode. I wanna be in, you know, I wanna be a strong woman and I wanna stand up for things and make sure that people know I'm reliable, dependable, consistent. You know, like, those attributes are meaningful to me. But with regard to a husband, I just always felt like that was an antiquated idea. Maybe like it's too old fashioned, like there's gotta be a new iteration of marriage or. And I also had this fantasy in my life of just having lots of lovers. Like I just totally always. And I still do. I'm always like, I just want lovers, you know, I just want to be this kind of bon vivant that just goes around the world, you know? And now, I'm sorry. So I'm in a monogamous relationship as we speak, but I still have these ideas and I still have these kind of thoughts, and I'm always willing to examine them further. And actually, okay, maybe this relationship changes you or maybe this circumstance changes you. I'm not locked and loaded like I thought I was when I was younger. And I think that's something that you attain as you become older. You start to realize that everything is malleable and nothing is fixed.

[Suleika Jawad]

I think that was my big unlock as well. Like, much like any creative process, I think a relationship is something you co create. It doesn't have to look like the thing that your parents had or what people tell you a relationship should look like. I'm someone who loves to spend time alone. I love to spend time with my friends. And we've built a kind of life that accommodates. You know, when John goes on tour, people will often say to me, is that hard for you? And I'm like, no, I love it. I love to miss him. You know, I love when he's home. But I also love having my own time. I get to have my girlfriends come and stay with me for two weeks, which I do. Also, when he's there, I get to just be with myself and my dogs and go deep into a project and vice versa. When I'm on the road, he's happy too. And there's something really beautiful about realizing you get to be the architect of your relationship, even if it looks like nothing, like anyone else's relationship, and you figure out the thing that works for you.

[Chelsea Handler]

And congratulations on your new Chihuahuas.

[Suleika Jawad]

Oh, my gosh.

[Chelsea Handler]

I saw yesterday that you posted on Instagram, how many Chihuahuas did you end up getting? 2 or 3. It looked like there were about eight Chihuahuas in that picture or one of the pictures. And I was like, I hope they didn't get all those dogs.

[Suleika Jawad]

So the love of my life was a little terrier rescue I got at 22, who died four years ago. And after that, I was like, I can't go through this again. I don't think I can ever have a dog again. Fast forward. We've gotten one dog every single year since.

[Chelsea Handler]

When you go to la.

[Suleika Jawad]

Well, the first two were not in la. So two years ago we went to the Oscars. Our documentary American Symphony was nominated. And Normal people.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, you won a Grammy for that also.

[Suleika Jawad]

We did Normal people, when they're traveling somewhere, look up like cool bars to go to great restaurants. I always go on Petfinder. On the flight over, I see this senior, toothless, hairless dog that's seven pounds, named Lentil. And without consulting John, without consulting anyone, I filled out the application on a whim. And when I landed, the application had been accepted. And I was too scared to tell John what I'D done. So I woke up the next morning, ubered to go pick up this dog, brought it back to the hotel, and John woke up and he was like, what? First of all, what is this? Is this a dog? Is it a bat? Like, is it a meerkat? And also, why is it here? And I was like, it's fine, we're just fostering. And he was like, during Oscars weekend, when we have so much to do? And I was like, yes, it's all good. And a few hours later, a TSA approved dog carrier arrived at our door. And he was like, and what is this? And I was like, just in case. Anyway, I've decided this is my tradition and that it's happened once. And so when we were back in the Oscars, at the Oscars, I was joking about how maybe I should get, you know, another dog. And the joke was on me. Cause we ended up coming home with two senior toothless Chihuahuas. So we currently have five dogs in our house.

[Chelsea Handler]

Where did the other two come from? Oh, this has happened every year.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, so five. Okay, so you have.

[Suleika Jawad]

Okay, yeah. The math is getting complicated.

[Chelsea Handler]

So, okay, here's a question. When you're going to all these events, are you bringing the chihuahua with you? The rescue or the fo. As a foster. When you're fostering or you leave it in the hotel room.

[Suleika Jawad]

I leave it in the hotel room. I get a dog sitter.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, you do.

[Suleika Jawad]

I briefly consider skipping all of the Oscar events because the dogs were arriving that day and I was very excited to meet them. I think I'm veering dangerously close to crazy dog lady territory. But to me, like, I don't know,

[Chelsea Handler]

there's a lot of joy in coming home to a group of dogs.

[Suleika Jawad]

There really is.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have fantasized about this. I have fantasies of my own about this. With chow. My type is a Chow Chow. Your type is a Chihuahua. I want to have five Chow Chows coming at me when I come home. But it's really. I'm just never home. So that would just. It's not ideal, but I'm gonna make that happen at some point in my life. Cause I want a farm, you know,

[Suleika Jawad]

that's what I want.

[Chelsea Handler]

I just want them all playing with each other all day, being friends, hanging out, you know, a big backyard, which I have. So, I mean, I guess I could do it, but I mean, it is. I like that kind of lack of control.

[Suleika Jawad]

And I've gotta say on the record, my type is not a Chihuahua. I was never a small Dog person. Oh, I thought we have a lab. We have a medium sized dog, and then what I will say my most recent type is, is a baby grandma.

[Chelsea Handler]

I thought you guys, I thought the Chihuahuas yesterday. Am I misspeaking?

[Suleika Jawad]

No, the most recent are two chihuahuas. Oh, okay, two out of five.

[Chelsea Handler]

Two out of five are Chihuahuas. So two fifths.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, yeah, two fifths.

[Chelsea Handler]

Okay. Oh, so you do have a lab.

[Suleika Jawad]

We have a lab.

[Chelsea Handler]

And what are the other two?

[Suleika Jawad]

The other one's a medium sized mutt. The third is a hairless Mexican dog.

[Chelsea Handler]

The first one. The OG The.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, the OG Oscar rescue.

[Chelsea Handler]

So who walks all these dogs? Do you walk all the dogs?

[Suleika Jawad]

I walk the dogs. But I also feel like we're nearing a point where we may need to hire a dog nanny.

[Chelsea Handler]

A third party, right?

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Handler]

That's inspiring. I like that. I like that that's how you spend your Oscar weekend.

[Suleika Jawad]

I do. It's like, you know, those weekends for me are kind of stressful. I'm like an introverted extrovert. I like a small group hang. But after a couple of hours of small talk, I start to go blank behind the eyes. I get anxious. And those things are anxiety inducing, but they're also not. It's like it feels high stakes, but it's not like we're doing, you know, pediatric brain surgery. No one's life is on the line. It's like your shoes don't fit or whatever.

[Chelsea Handler]

Right.

[Suleika Jawad]

And so I like when my brain is hijacked by something other than that. Preferably.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

A senior dog who needs some love.

[Chelsea Handler]

A senior dog rescue. Okay, on that note, we're going to be right back with Salaika Jawad. There we go. Fanatically.

[Suleika Jawad]

Got it?

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Okay, great. Did I get it? You got it. Okay, great.

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[Chelsea Handler]

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[Suleika Jawad]

Jawad like a Thad, but not really.

[Chelsea Handler]

Salaika. Jawad.

[Suleika Jawad]

Jawad.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. I have problems with phonetics and names.

[Suleika Jawad]

That's okay. I have four vowels in my last name.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is a beautiful name if you get it right.

[Suleika Jawad]

Sean calls it a vowel salad.

[Chelsea Handler]

Okay. We have callers calling in for advice. Are you ready for this, Katherine? What do we have in store for Suleika today?

[Katherine (Producer)]

Well, let's start with our caller today. This is Tara.

[Chelsea Handler]

She says.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Dear Chelsea, my husband and I have been together for five years and married for one. This past year has been incredibly difficult. He underwent several surgeries, numerous medical appointments, and ER visits. We also had to move in the middle of it all. I handled everything. Planning the move, packing, coordinating movers, while also managing his medical care. As a medical social worker, I was the one scheduling appointments, contacting insurance companies, and making sure his care stayed on track. All of this while working full time, maintaining the household, caring for our two dogs, and managing the financial responsibilities. This year took a significant toll on me, mentally and physically. It felt like I was in constant survival mode. His last surgery was in October of last year, and he returned to work in January. Now that life has returned to some sense of normalcy, a new challenge has surfaced in our relationship. Our intimacy. While he was sick, our sex life was understandably limited. Now that he's feeling better, there's a lot of pressure from him to have sex. Frequently, he expresses that sex is more than physical for him. It's how he connects and feels valued. And I understand that perspective. However, at 45, my sex drive is not the same. We're currently intimate two to three times a week. But this isn't enough for him. He also wants more variety, more experimentation, lingerie, use of toys. It feels like the expectations keep increasing and I struggle to keep up. At the same time, I feel overwhelmed. At home, I handle the majority of the household responsibilities. Cleaning, laundry, caring for the dogs, managing daily tasks. He does cook, which I appreciate, but beyond that, I carry most of the load. It's difficult to feel emotionally or physically open. When I feel exhausted and unsupported, I am trying. I've made efforts to initiate more intimacy and to wear Things that make him feel desired, even when I don't particularly enjoy them. I'd really value your guidance on how we can approach this in a healthier way. Tara.

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh, hi, Tara.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Hello.

[Chelsea Handler]

We have a special guest today, Salaika Jawad, who actually has been through many similar things that you've mentioned. First of all, thank you for calling in. And wow, you've really been through a lot and you've held it together, and I can totally understand why you feel you're in a state of overwhelm.

[Caller Tara]

Definitely, yes. It's been really hard.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Do you have someone that you're talking to? Do you have a therapist?

[Caller Tara]

Yes, I talk to my therapist every two weeks and have a great support of friends and a spiritual practice.

[Chelsea Handler]

Great, great. So you're already firing on a lot of cylinders, so that's important. I'm gonna say a couple things, and then obviously, I want you to jump in too, with any feedback you think might be helpful. I think, you know, this is a really difficult situation and not something that so many people can relate to. Not everybody experiences these things, but you're a rock star for being able to support him in this way during this time. So make sure you're telling yourself that every day. And while that doesn't give you permission to control the dynamic of the relationship, it does give you a sense of value and purpose independent from everything else in your life. So just kudos to you for staying the course and being a rock for somebody. Cause that's really important. And everyone in his situation or going through something similar needs that. But with regard to sex and stuff, I mean, it does sound like you guys have to have a conversation with a third party to kind of balance everything out. It seems a little bit demanding from your side of things. A little demanding and a little bit. You're not required to deliver on all of those fronts at all the times. You have a lot on your shoulders. And so I feel like there is an avenue for him to gain a better understanding of everything that this has had on you. Like this kind of. I don't want to say onus because it has a negative connotation, but all of these responsibilities have taken a toll on you in a way that he needs to have probably a little bit better understanding of. So I guess my next question is, do you guys have a therapist that you speak to, or does he have one that you speak to together or does he have one?

[Caller Tara]

No, he doesn't have one. And I've been looking into trying to find a male therapist for Us as a couple. Because I feel like a lot of times if a male tells him, like, your expectations are way too high, he might be able to be more open to it. If it's another female therapist saying, you're asking for too much.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Caller Tara]

So that would be our next step. But it's been hard. Like, I feel the bar keeps on getting up. It's not only we don't have enough sex, now we have enough. But then it's the same positions, or can we get a toy or can we do something else? And so I feel like I constantly trying to keep up with what's next in order for him to be 100% happy with our sex life.

[Chelsea Handler]

Right. And I also think that, like, he's probably feeling great for the first time in a long time. And really, like, this is a way of expression and a way to make him feel better. And so that's totally understandable as well. But I think a good therapist will be able to. And you're right to get a male therapist, I think. Cause there's so many emotional things that go along with this Suleka, not just the sexual component. Right. Like, he has to have an understanding of everything you've been through.

[Suleika Jawad]

I just wanna first acknowledge how much you've been carrying. Caregiver burnout is very real. And as someone who was in the patient's chair, so much of the focus often is on the patient, but you're living alongside it too. And I know both for me, but also for my caregivers, in a way, it was only once the crisis was past us that they were actually able to take inventory of what had happened, of the exhaustion, of the cumulative traumas. And so I couldn't agree more with Chelsea. I love couples therapy. We think of it as car maintenance in my marriage. And I think often it's. Sometimes people think, oh, couples therapy is something you do when you're on the verge of breaking up. But it's something, I think that's good to start before things reach an inflection point. The other thing I'll say is sometimes having these conversations is hard. And right now you're doing not just a lot of labor, but also a lot of invisible emotional labor. And it can be hard to talk about that in a way where it doesn't feel like you're saying, look at all the things that I do for you. And someone responds with, but look at all the things that I do for you. And so my husband John, you know, years ago, in the early years of our relationship, when we Were navigating, feeling like we were both overwhelmed. Had this idea that instead of writing in a journal individually, which we both do, we would start writing each other letters. Because sometimes the thing you say in conversation makes it difficult to actually get to the there, there. You end up in a back and forth, and everyone's interrupting each other or queuing up their next thought. And to my surprise, like, I would write this letter to John or do it in a voice note. And I didn't even really know what I was feeling until I had the quiet to actually say it myself. And then we'd take a photo. I text the letter to him, and he would write one back. But I think the communication piece here is so important. And I'm curious if he has a sense of how much you're carrying and how much of that you share with him.

[Caller Tara]

I think he did have a sense because he was. Encouraged me to take time off, and I did. Took time off. Finally I went away for a whole week, and it was great. So he did have a sense. But then when it comes to sex, I think that he gets blinded.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah.

[Katherine (Producer)]

I do want to also point out that, like, three times a week is above average for a couple that's been together five years. Like, you're doing great. I love your idea of getting a man involved to be like, that's a lot. Like, that's doing great.

[Chelsea Handler]

And like.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Yes. But, you know, you might also engage him in, like, one of the sexiest things that you could do for me is to help take some of this off of my plate so I have the energy to feel sexy later in the day. You know, if you take the dog for a walk and give them their dinners or whatever the, you know, whatever the daily tasks are, like, relate those two things together in a really concrete way for him so you can be like, if you are able to take these things off my plate, there's a better chance that I will feel sexy later or, like, have the space in my mind, body, and brain for that.

[Suleika Jawad]

Okay, great.

[Chelsea Handler]

But I also think it's important for men to understand that women we, like, we don't always love to be pursued. Sometimes we want to come to you and, you know, like, that's something that you can say in a very gentle, loving way. Like, it's not so sexy all the time. When I feel pursued all the time by you sexually, I want an opportunity to come to you and say, okay, I'm in the mood, or initiate sex. Those are different ways of communicating things so that he. Cause I have A feeling. He feels like this is his. He's feeling healthy and strong again and wants to kind of show his manhood off. There could be an element of that, which is why a male therapist will be great to deal with that. But there's also gentle ways that you can communicate that and how you're feeling. Because, you know, as Salika said, like, you are in triage during this time and you're just coming out of it. I mean, you're out of it, but like, your body and your brain aren't always in the same moment together. So, like there is trauma involved. Like you were in survival mode for a long time and now you're just kind of like coming down. So there's a lot to deal with there. And so I'm so glad you're seeing a therapist and talking to someone about it because that stuff and getting yourself recalibrated to these newer, healthier circumstances is also an adjustment.

[Katherine (Producer)]

And if he's really into this, like exploring some kink stuff, maybe you need to do like a dom sub thing where like you're making him do something.

[Chelsea Handler]

Katherine loves this shit. She loves it.

[Suleika Jawad]

I love it.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Put on some high heels, boss him around, make him do the housework, be very hot.

[Chelsea Handler]

Stop asking you for sexual.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, two birds with one stone. More health on the domestic front while playing into the kink.

[Chelsea Handler]

Exactly, exactly.

[Caller Tara]

I like that idea.

[Katherine (Producer)]

All right, Tara, will you follow up with us after you guys see a therapist together?

[Caller Tara]

Yes, we'll do.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Tara, you're amazing. You're amazing. Everything you've done, rock solid. You're a rock solid woman.

[Caller Tara]

Thank you so much.

[Chelsea Handler]

Bye.

[Caller Tara]

Bye.

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[Katherine (Producer)]

Right. Well, we'll wrap up with a little quickie.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah, let's close out with a little quickie.

[Katherine (Producer)]

So our wondering question today is Dear Chelsea, I'm 35 and lately I've been trying to get back into journaling, but I'm having trouble writing without thinking. I have to write as if someone is reading it. I sit down to spill my heart onto the page and instead it comes out censored and dry. Just a list of what happened that day without any color. How do I get past that? Brittany?

[Chelsea Handler]

Oh yeah, you talk about this in the book.

[Suleika Jawad]

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest reasons people don't journal. This is what lockboxes are for. And, you know, I had this semi traumatic experience in the eighth grade of leaving my journal in my bag in a gym locker room and a girl at my school finding my journal and reading it.

[Katherine (Producer)]

Oh, no.

[Suleika Jawad]

Now, I've always been a very adventurous journaler, which is that I don't think of the journal as a space where you have to necessarily write in the first person about things that are happening. My journals were like full of fantastical stories with aspirational female protagonists. And so in my journal, I had written essentially a bunch of lies about boys. I said I kissed that I certainly hadn't. And it was like in that blurred line between nonfiction and fantasy. And so she went around and told everyone that I had written these things, that I was a liar, et cetera, et cetera. I now look back at that moment and I wish I had just owned it and said, yeah, it's not lying, it's a journal. It's private. I get to write whatever I want in there. I get to play make believe. I get to whatever. But I think it's really scary to show up as your most unedited, vulnerable self in any space, let alone in a physical object that might fall in the wrong hands. And so my advice to you, get a little carry on. Suitcase with a lock. Get a lockbox. Do whatever it is that you need to do to feel like you can say whatever it is you need to say. Write your journal entry and then paint over it. How do you feel about that?

[Chelsea Handler]

I totally relate to what she's saying. And when I read it in your book, in the Book of Alchemy, like, when you talked about people's reluctance to journal the same thing, it's like, I always kind of. Even when I'm alone, like, even when I get on my knees and pray, I feel like I'm being watched. And I'm like, hopefully the person who's watching me can help me. But I've always have this idea that someone will see it or watch it. So I can totally relate to that. But in a more practical sense, there are ways to keep privacy. You know, there are ways to remain private. There are. You know, you can do all of these things. And I liked what you said in the book or about Taylor, the idea of tearing it up once you write it, to kind of start with that idea. Cause now I have a gratitude journal that I write in every morning just to write. And sometimes I think, oh, this sounds so. And I was like, it doesn't matter. Stop that. Stop thinking someone's gonna read this. And just. Also, I kind of think about it in a way. So what if everybody does also? Who cares? But that doesn't really help this person. But that's. When you're asking me how I feel about that, I kind of think, like, it doesn't matter what anyone see. I write to myself. It doesn't. It doesn't change how I feel. It doesn't change how I am in this world. If anything, it's more liberating to know that, like, I stand by everything I say, you know, Totally.

[Suleika Jawad]

And that we all have the same insecurities and fears and angst. But I think what you said is so astute and so interesting, which is sometimes the deeper fear isn't that someone will read it. It's actually writing and reading what it is for yourself that you want to say. It's so vulnerable to articulate what it is that you're. The truth of what you're feeling. I'm reminded of during my first book, I had this post it note above my desk that said, if you want to write a good book, write what you don't want others to know about you. If you want to write a great book, write what you don't want to know about yourself. And I think journaling, when you're doing it, deeply requires you sometimes to write things you don't want to know about yourself. And that feeling of being exposed may actually not be so much about other people reading it, because there are lots, as you put it, practical ways to make sure that that doesn't happen.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. I think it's also so important to own for women, especially, to own your thoughts. I have a feeling that there's a big differentiation between, as a whole, men thinking about what people know about them versus women. We also have to be a little bit more. We have to embrace ourselves a little bit more than we do. It's a little bit too critical, a little bit too judgmental. And this has been going on for the last 10,000 years, since we turned into a patriarchy that women are. So we're scared and that's how we shrink. And so I think that really embracing that idea and really writing down the things that you're icked out about, for lack of a better term in this moment about yourself, is a great liberation. It's really great to write down all of the things and read them and be like, this is who I am. And it's beautiful.

[Suleika Jawad]

Totally. The poet Muriel Rukeyser has this great line. She said, what would happen if one woman told the truth about her life? The world would break open. I think it's scary to tell the truth about your life, about what you're feeling, about what you want, especially when you're not doing it with an audience.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Suleika Jawad]

Then you actually have to tell the truth.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yes. Right. That's the truth.

[Suleika Jawad]

And you have to look at it, and then inevitably, you have to do something about it.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jawad]

And so I guess, to me, what's on the other side of that fear may be the thing that is needed most.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Well, beautifully said. You're a beautiful person. I'm just blown away by you. Thank you. But I mean, I just really. I'm so moved by your story. I'm so moved by your life. I'm so happy that you're. Are you healthy now?

[Suleika Jawad]

I'm not.

[Chelsea Handler]

You're not?

[Suleika Jawad]

I'm not. I had a recurrence three years ago. And then again two years ago. But the weird thing is, even though my prognosis may be worse than it's ever been, I think in a weird way, my relationship to my illness, but also my life in general, is healthier than it's ever been.

[Chelsea Handler]

I believe that. I believe that. And you said something, I don't know if you said it or John said it, about the attention that you give to your illness, that it doesn't overpower your existence, that you give it the amount of attention it deserves and not one ounce more. Right. And so what does that mean for you?

[Suleika Jawad]

So when I learned two years ago that the leukemia was back a third time, I was, like, just undone. I spent a month in bed, and I just didn't know how to deal with that level of uncertainty, how to move forward with it. And I kept saying to my doctor, like, how do I live? Like, what do I do with this? What do you do when you have no idea what's gonna happen in three months or six months? How do I make plans? How do I go on trips? How do I make commit to work projects that might take several years to see through? And the thing he said to me is the thing people often say, which is, you have to live every day as if it's your last. And I've come to believe that that is the worst advice.

[Chelsea Handler]

I agree.

[Suleika Jawad]

It's a lot of pressure to make every family dinner meaningful, to make every day as great as it can be, and it's just exhausting. So I'm done doing that. I've come to believe it's bad advice generally, because if we were all doing that, we'd be declaring bankruptcy and the world would devolve into chaos. And so the way that I do that, in terms of. Right. Sizing my fear and going about living my life is that I've had to shift to a gentler mindset of living every day as if it's my first, which is to say waking up with a sense of curiosity and wonder and playfulness that little kids do so easily. And when I do that, it's not about, like, the big bucket list things. It's about finding small joys. It's about lowering the pressure and the barrier to entry and just moving towards what feels nourishing, what feels fun, what feels interesting.

[Chelsea Handler]

And the things that make you smile, you know, sharing smiles with strangers, like those innocent acts or like, you know, little acts, I guess those things. It's like, you know, when you find yourself smiling alone at your house, you know, like, looking out the window and looking at a tree and smiling. You're like, that's, that's actually quite beautiful to have moments like that. And we all get swept up in this sea of craziness. So it's a great reminder.

[Suleika Jawad]

Or adopting five dogs. Not because it makes sense. It certainly does not. But because it makes you happy.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yeah. Thank you, Suleika. Thank you, Chelsea. Suleika Jawad. Is that right?

[Suleika Jawad]

Perfect.

[Chelsea Handler]

I get it. I knew I get it now. Dub that in for all the times I fucked up.

[Suleika Jawad]

Okay.

[Chelsea Handler]

The book is called the Book of Alchemy and there's also the Alchemy Journal. Both are out now. And her previous book, Between Two Kingdoms, you can also purchase. And her column that she mentioned in the New York Times is called Life Interrupted. And also American Symphony. If you haven't seen American Symphony on Netflix, it was produced by the Obamas, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That was an Oscar nominated film, a Grammy award winning film, and it was a beautiful illustration of your lives together and just everything. So thank you so much for your time today.

[Suleika Jawad]

Thank you, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Handler]

Yes, thank you.

[Katherine (Producer)]

If you want advice from Chelsea, write in to dearchelsea podcastmail.com Dear Chelsea is a production of I Heart Media. Follow Chelsea on all socials elseehandler and find Catherine on TikTok lashkadabra. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brandon Dickert executive producer Kathryn Lawrence. Find full video episodes and minisodes now on Netflix and get tickets to see Chelsea live@chelsea handler.com.

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[Chelsea Handler]

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[Suleika Jawad]

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