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Dear Fantasy Reader
Ep. 5 Onyx Storm Deep Dive: Ch. 9-12 | Easter Eggs, Theories & Key Moments
02:32:24
Join your favorite Quest Squadmates—Hannah, Kinsey, and Karly—as they dive deep into chapters 9-12 of Rebecca Yarros' captivating fantasy, Onyx Storm! First, they'll journey into the Archives Vault for a quick chapter recap before diving...
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- [00:00]
Hannah
Hey Lights.
- [00:01]
Carly
Hey Swipes.
- [00:02]
Hannah
You ready for the nasty weather? Oh yeah, that's what we windshield wipers were made for. How about you, Lights? You remember your training, right?
- [00:09]
Kinsey
Of course.
- [00:10]
Carly
When you guys are on, so are we.
- [00:12]
Hannah
We're shining a light too.
- [00:13]
Kinsey
Really on safety for Oregon's rose, making it so everyone can see each other coming. Aw, we all go together so well.
- [00:19]
Hannah
Oh, here comes the rain.
- [00:21]
Kinsey
We're on.
- [00:22]
Hannah
Let's go.
- [00:23]
Kinsey
Remember, when your wipers are on, make.
- [00:25]
Hannah
Sure your headlights are on too.
- [00:26]
Kinsey
Lights and swipes.
- [00:27]
Hannah
It's the way to go.
- [00:28]
Kinsey
A reminder from odot this message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy?
- [00:36]
Hannah
Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money.
- [00:38]
Kinsey
App that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place.
- [00:45]
Carly
With Greenlight, you can send money to.
- [00:47]
Kinsey
Kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids.
- [00:51]
Hannah
Spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight.
- [00:59]
Kinsey
Get started risk free@greenlight.com getstarted that's G-R E E N L I G H T.com getstarted Dearest fantasy readers, welcome to the Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast where we travel through the pages of our fantasy favorite Romantasy novels. I'm Hannah.
- [01:25]
Hannah
I'm Kinsey.
- [01:26]
Carly
And I'm Carly.
- [01:27]
Kinsey
Join us as we take flight into the world of the Empyrean series, diving deep into Onyx Storm, breaking down characters, scenes foreshadowing and more, fangirling over Shadow Daddies, building theories as we go and more.
- [01:44]
Carly
With that content warning and spoiler alert, we will be covering anything and everything Empyrean series to this day and any content Rebecca Yarros has given us. So if you haven't read 4th Wing, Iron Flame and Onyx Storm in its entirety, go do that and we will be here waiting when you are done.
- [01:58]
Hannah
Also, due to the nature of these books, this podcast is rated R in content and language.
- [02:03]
Kinsey
As Rebecca Yarros says, readers who may be sensitive to these elements, please take note and prepare to face the storm. We have dragons to ride. Quick update. You will notice that we have added a few ad slots into our episodes. This is to help us fund our operation costs so that we can continue to create high quality content for you all. So thank you so much for your understanding. If you would like to listen to episodes or watch them ad free, we do have that option over on our Patreon.
- [02:39]
Carly
This week's Star of Navarre Award for review that made our heart soar goes to Princess, who wrote New to Fourth Wing and I love this podcast. Not only does it confirm some theories, but you guys present so many different theories. I didn't even think of reading the books. Sharing this podcast with all of my book nerd friends. So excited to hear the rest of your episodes. Thank you. Thank you so much Princess. I love it when I hear that people are recommending the podcast to their friends, their other friends. That's my favorite thing to hear. So thank you so much. If you are enjoying this show, please consider leaving us a review. It's a small thing that makes a big difference.
- [03:13]
Kinsey
First objective breaking into the archives vault for a summary report of chapters 9 through 12 with our squad mate Kinsey. As a reminder, if you don't need a refresh and would like to jump ahead, you can find the timestamps for each section down in our show.
- [03:28]
Hannah
Notes Violet and her squad are sent to the Samara Outpost as punishment, where they are met by Lt. Col. DeGrensey, who, unlike Gen. Eidos, is not a complete bag of dicks. De Grency is surprised and certainly not thrilled to hear Eidos was given command of Basgaeth. He's also appalled that Eidos sent cadets to the front line, revealing that Eidos had old intel because the fight is no longer active. Exhausted from a long flight, the squad rests in Zaden's old room for the night. Violet has a strange dream where she's searching for a family photograph while surrounded by blue flames. Chat is there, and before waking up, Violet insists that Chat must save herself because she's the future Queen of Tirandor. The squad overhears that Vennon are attacking Newhall, a small village just outside the wards where Merrin's family is located. When they realize that none of the riders at the outpost are able or willing to help, the squad votes unanimously to rescue Merrin's family. Violet and Taryn fly ahead of her squad, looking for evacuees for the flyers and Andarna to retrieve. As they make their way through the valley, a storm is brewing. They're alerted by Maze, a dragon stationed at Samara, that they have been ordered to return immediately. Violet asks if they can ignore her and Taryn retorts that he does not answer to Maze. As they fly through the storm, multiple Wyvern appear and give chase. As they fight them off, Violet notices a silver haired dark wielder who appears to be waiting for them. This was all a trap. Taryn manages to kill One Wyvern, but another is closing in when Aytrim. No, not Aytrim. Krod. Garruk's dragon takes out the wyvern. Just as the coast seems clear, a highly suspicious tornado appears, knocking both dragons right out of the sky. Taryn is flung into the mountainside and knocked unconscious, and for a moment Violet can't feel Terran breathing and their bond goes dark. She panics, thinking this is the end, but as she reaches out again, Violet feels a glimmer of the bond still there. Relieved he is still alive, Violet assesses her surroundings and realizes she's stuck in her saddle, dangling above the ground at a 90 degree angle. Garruk finds Violet after leaving his own unconscious dragon and he helps her off of Taryn. Violet dislocated her knee in the crash, so Garruk sets and wraps her knee while they are waiting for Andarna to send reinforcements. Barely able to walk and unable to wield with their dragons knocked out, Violet's day goes from bad to worse when the silver haired Venon appears before them and shocks them both by wielding lightning. She introduces herself as Theophany, revealing that she knows everything about Violet. Similar to Violet's worst nightmares, Theophany suspends Garak in the air and holds his life hostage in exchange for Violet answering a single which dragon bonded her first, Tern or the Irid? Connecting that Andarna is an Irid and that this is a trap for Theophany to capture her, Violet tells Andarna to fly for the wards. Theophany taunts Violet by telling her that eventually Zaden will leave to join the Venin and that Violet will go with him. Additionally, Theophany encourages Violet to remember her mercy and choose Theophany rather than Berwin as her teacher. Violet finally feels Taryn's power again as he starts to wake, and just as Taryn snaps towards Theophany, a Wyvern plucks her off the ground and carries her away. Violet confronts Garak about how he traveled hundreds of miles to reach her in just minutes. He couldn't have known until after Maze notified the other dragons. As Violet left the wards, she realizes Garak must be a distance wielder and she tells Garak to leave before anybody else notices her squad shows up and they immediately return to Basgaeth, where Taryn lands directly in the Quadrant courtyard to face a not so happy Brennan and Zaden. Since Violet can't walk, Zaden uses his shadows to carry her to an empty room for Brennan to mend her knee. Zanen is Furious about Violet leaving the wards, and Garrick appears to plead her case for the third time. Violet's squad arrives, including Merrin's newly orphaned little brothers. General Ada shows up just in time to be absolutely everyone's problem and informs Merrin that her brothers are not welcome in Navarre and need to go back across the border. Zaden steps in, declaring that they are now citizens of Tirandor and will return to Orisha instead. Frustrated, General Eidos storms out, but not before informing them that he is moving into Violet's mom's previous living quarters. After Brennan finishes mending Violet, Zaden kicks everyone out to seemingly argue with her. But as soon as they have, Priv finally breaks his own rule and gives Violet the kiss of a lifetime. Just when things are finally getting good, Zaden breaks off the kiss because he still just doesn't seem to trust himself to not lose control with Violet. Violet confronts Zaden about Garak and Zaden confirms that some marked ones do have second signets and that's why their dragons chose them for the ability to have more power and create their own army. Violet tells Zaden about what really happened with Theophany and that Violet suspects the Venin have signets. Over the next week, things return to normal, with the squad resuming classes. Violet receives a coded letter from Zaden where he secretly informs her that he slipped and channeled while protecting civilians outside the wards. In a desperate attempt to find answers for her cure, Violet and Imogen go see Jack and trade an imbued medallion for answers to four questions. With the medallion, Jack channels to live and see another week right before being mind wiped once again by Imogen. That was a lot.
- [08:39]
Carly
Every week you read this. I'm so impressed.
- [08:41]
Kinsey
Great speed on that one. That was solid.
- [08:44]
Carly
Yeah.
- [08:45]
Kinsey
Grab your leathers, Quest Squad, as we are taking flight to the front lines. Diving right into our analysis and discussion section where we walked through the most important and interesting plot points and moments. In this section of chapters, we get.
- [09:02]
Carly
Violet's first stream in Onyx Storm, which we now know was actually her experiencing Merrin's dream. I just want to know why Maren's dreams seem to foreshadow almost exactly what would happen to her parents. I am kind of wondering if the flyers have more access to magical abilities than we realize. Or that they even realize. Is it just a coincidence? Is it some ability Violet has that she is now exercising within this dream? I do think it makes sense for the Griffin flyers power to develop and come more powerful as they now seem out of balance. With both the dragons and the venom. What are we thinking on this?
- [09:43]
Hannah
I don't think Rebecca believes in coincidences. There's no way.
- [09:48]
Kinsey
No, absolutely not.
- [09:50]
Carly
I agree.
- [09:50]
Kinsey
I think our podcast is foolproof. Three seasons now of not coincidences. Yeah.
- [09:58]
Hannah
And so far, all of the dreams that Violet has seen are all, as you said, Carly foreshadowing for events. And for some reason, it's only ever happened with the Venon. Specifically, there was Zaden turning Venon. Then we got Maren's family being burned by wyvernfyre. And I found it really odd that her dream specifically described her parents, and then it said parents, and then, oh, no, my family. But it never said specifically her siblings. It just said parents. So it just seems to be foreshadowing to me.
- [10:29]
Kinsey
Yeah, I definitely think it's foreshadowing, but I do not think that it was Maren seeing was happening at the time or like a premonition. Nor do I think that it was prompted by a Venon. I do see where you're coming from. And to be clear, in case this is somehow your first episode you're listening to of ours, we are quite aware that this is Violet's second signet, but this one I don't think is prompted by a Venon or, like, really to do with the Venon, because that would imply that Theophany tampered with Marin's dream. And I don't think that that's something that all Vennon can do, which I will explain in our theories section. Really excited for that one.
- [11:06]
Carly
Me too.
- [11:06]
Kinsey
But as you have pointed out before, Carly, this dream does seem to be a past experience from when they, being the Griffin Flyers, were attacked at Cliffsbane Academy, both because of Merryn's comments about Cat and Zaden choosing her, where she's like, you're the future queen of Tyrandor. Your people need you. Basically saying, like, he's going to choose you. And then Merrin also thinking that she hasn't lost her crown, she'll fight for what's hers. Of course, at this point, we know things have changed since then. Like, that's no longer going to be Merrin's perspective of Violet and Zaden and Cat's dynamic. But to further back this up, Merrin notes in her dream that the flames setting the place on fire are blue. And if we recall, back in Iron Flame, the parchment that De Vera printed out for battle Brief was news that Zolia, the city where Cliffsbane Academy was, fell to blue fire dragons that we now know are Wyvern. This is why the Griffin flyers were displaced and why they negotiated for them to train in Orisha. Cat even references this on the following morning, saying that they fought their way out of Cliff, Spain. And Merryn mentions how her family should have fled south to Cordon or Dreythis after Zoya fell instead of Newhall. So all of that to say, I think that this was Rebecca dropping clues for us to connect, that this was Merrin had already had, and it was like a reoccurring nightmare of it that was used as a tool of foreshadowing.
- [12:39]
Hannah
I will say that when I read the you're the future queen of Tirandor quote, I made a note in my Kindle that literally just said wts with, like a thousand Fs. I was like, wtff? But, like, not just because it's Cat, but because there is no queen of Tirandor. So unless Merrin was referring to the Queen of Navarre, expecting Cat to become the queen. Like, good luck hauled in, I guess.
- [13:05]
Kinsey
Yeah.
- [13:05]
Hannah
It just was so strange.
- [13:07]
Kinsey
Well, same. And I think that that's because it was back when Cat likely thought that the rebellion would try to secede, that Tirandor would become its own country, making Zayden king. Which also further dates the dream back. Yeah.
- [13:21]
Carly
So I still have a lot of questions on that dream, but I don't think we're gonna get answers to that until maybe even Book five. I will say I don't like that the dreams feel like it is something that is happening to Violet instead, something she is participating in. There seems to be a lack of choice so far in which dream she enters or if she enters one at all. I'm not loving this element of her signet.
- [13:47]
Hannah
I do think that she does have some sort of choice in the matter. Currently, when she enters a dream, it's just revolving around being in close proximity to someone who's having a nightmare. Maybe that's not really a choice. It's just like a proximity thing and when they're most vulnerable. But I do think she's actually trying to participate in the dream once she does get there. To me, it seemed like she was trying to manipulate Merrin's nightmare, similar to what she ends up doing to zaden in chapter 50. One part that stood out to me was, quote, every inch is a fight. My body refusing to obey the simple command to move. And sweat beads on my forehead as the flames spread to the linens on my bed. Note, the word move here was italicized so there was an Emphasis on the word move. Then later the narrator says, I try to yell, but it comes out nearly silent. Why can't I scream? So here I think that Violet was actually trying to compel Maren to move because Maren was in a state of panic. And we get that nearly lucid moment where the narrator is questioning why they can't scream. It's like Violet's actions can't happen because Maren is still partially in control of this nightmare. But at least someone, presumably Violet, is trying to do something, trying to scream. Rebecca was a little tricky here because it's in first person and not third person. So we don't know exactly like if this was Violet's thoughts or Maren's thoughts. So we don't know who was trying to move, who was trying to scream. But maybe it was kind of written to be almost like an out of body experience because her commands weren't actually working and she was looking through someone else's eyes. So I think it was Violet trying to do this and not Maren. But I don't know. I feel like she has some sort of control.
- [15:24]
Kinsey
I see where you're going with Maren. Specifically, it's saying, my parents like my family's picture. Right. I assumed this whole time that Violet was an active participant in every dream that she was in. But I imagine that her ability to influence it and be lucid, almost in it is going to be part of her signet evolution. Like, as you've mentioned before, maybe she can get to the point where she could kill people in her dreams or influence their thoughts or their actions. But I personally never read it as if she was just watching the dream with no control or influence elements of it, but not entirely. I think that her always slipping into nightmares may have something to do with the vulnerability of the person whose dreams she's entering. Which could also be something that her signet would evolve to be able to accommodate. Like normal dreams now that she's conscious.
- [16:16]
Carly
Of her ability to be clear. Like, I think she is trying to exercise control once she's in the dream. I'd like to see more control over if she enters a dream and whose dream and when. And this is, like I said, it seems to be kickstarted by something that's just happening to her. And then she gets to exercise some control. It's the starting of it. I'm sure we'll get to see more of that. I'm sure she learns. I just don't love that element of it so far. It just kind of grates me the wrong way.
- [16:47]
Hannah
It's always a surprise.
- [16:48]
Kinsey
Is it consensual? Is that what grates you?
- [16:52]
Carly
I don't know if that would be the exact word I would use. It's just that there's just this element of, like. I feel like it's maybe written to be more confusing than it needs to be. Yep. There's just an element of frustration as the reader.
- [17:06]
Kinsey
While I do think that that is a product of her not knowing about her signet, which we will no longer run into with future books. Right. Like now she knows. And for one, she's totally going to be focused on getting into Xaden's dreams. We know this. But I really am excited because it'd be pointless for her to have the signet and not utilize it in that way. More strategically.
- [17:25]
Carly
Yeah.
- [17:26]
Kinsey
And also consensually on her part. Though no one can technically consent to her doing that. Which is, I think, part of what makes it, like, borderline, the whole intrinsic thing and something she might struggle with. But I definitely think we're gonna get that. I can't see her. She's probably not gonna have as much control over it at first. But we've got two books. And I'm really excited. I feel this way about all of their signets. I really want to see them their most evolved. This is her at 10%. You know, there's, like, what directions? I think that's, like, first direction that she's gonna be able to evolve. And then it'll grow out to being able to be conscious and move around in the dreams. First step is choosing the dream and entering willingly. Consciously.
- [18:09]
Carly
Yeah. Moving on. In a matter of a few pages, Taryn is knocked unconscious by a very suspicious tornado.
- [18:20]
Kinsey
Understatement.
- [18:21]
Carly
Yeah. Garruk appears and is revealed to be a distance wielder.
- [18:25]
Hannah
A what?
- [18:26]
Carly
A distance wielder. You were right. Hannah. Thank you. And we meet Theophany Whiplash of, like, five pages. If I can say that.
- [18:38]
Kinsey
You can. Tornado's worth. You know, if you will.
- [18:42]
Carly
Tornado's worth. We discussed our reaction to Taran's death. Fake out. In our initial reaction episode, I did not believe he was dead. But I was interrupted by a Target special edition sale that will haunt me. So for an hour. I was wondering how badly injured he was.
- [19:02]
Kinsey
I didn't have it that severe. TL Dr. Is that I was a sobbing mess. I was watching my reaction video the other day. I filmed all of me reading, which is like days worth of video. So I keep mentioning it. But one day I will Go through it. And it's just me sobbing. It's literally is just gasps, sobs. And how is this happening so soon? It's like 30 pages in the book. Not really, but it feels like it. So. Yeah. But also the fact that this was just the first of many death fake outs that we get through this book.
- [19:35]
Hannah
Yeah. I was also super surprised by how soon it happened. And just like I said in the initial reactions video, I kept saying, guys, one of her dragons is going to die. Like, we're probably going to lose Taryn. But the moment that happened, I started to lose my shit. Like, I just started to panic cry. And I'm like, well, now they're super fucked. Because if they lose Taryn, they lose their lightning wielder. And that's like their biggest line of defense against these venoms. So I did not handle this scene very well. I cried a lot.
- [20:04]
Carly
I'm glad he didn't die. And you should be glad too, Kinsey, because if he had died in that moment, I would have been texting you, being like, this is your fault.
- [20:11]
Kinsey
You find Jinx did this.
- [20:13]
Carly
Yes.
- [20:14]
Hannah
I made that video after she finished the book.
- [20:18]
Kinsey
So still.
- [20:23]
Carly
So what do we think about the fact that Violet can't access her magic if Taryn is knocked unconscious?
- [20:31]
Kinsey
Well, I think that it tells us that if Taryn dies, that Violet's not gonna have her lightning signet. Which you were just hinting at there a second ago, Kinsey. It does make Violet being able to use her dreamwalking signet after supposedly unbonding to Endarna all the more suspicious. So we're getting kind of like mixed messages. But Indarna's unique. The scene indicates because he blacks out, and then she can't touch her power until she starts to feel it. And it's also interesting that she starts to feel it a little bit as he wakes up. So him being conscious is tied to her power. Even if she turned Venon, I don't know that she's going to be able to keep her signet. So I hope that means he's safe.
- [21:08]
Hannah
You're saying if she turns Ven in but he's dead?
- [21:11]
Kinsey
Yeah, maybe that would be a case. I could see it being allowed, but I don't think. I believe. I don't buy into that. But that is a theory I think we've tossed out about. Maybe some Benon got their sickness because they were previously fallen into Riders. I don't buy that. But I'm saying I could see it being a way to get around it. But I just don't see Taryn dying in her keeping it. But I also don't see Taryn making it through the whole series. But I also don't see Rebecca not letting us keep our main character's main distinctive power. So at this point, who the fuck knows?
- [21:44]
Hannah
I feel like if he did die, she would still keep that power if she turned Venon. But I think the main reason Rebecca included Taryn's bond going dark was just so that we could contrast it with the emptiness Violet felt once Andarna left. Because we know for sure, like, the descriptions were completely different. Like, with Taryn, there was still a glimmer of a thread, but with Andarna, it was like a complete wall. It was empty. It wasn't just dark. I think that's genuinely the only reason why she really included this scene. But I am concerned for Violet when it comes to fighting Venon without lightning, because I don't know, he's just knocked out and she can't even access the magic. Why does he have to be conscious in order for her to channel her magic from him?
- [22:29]
Carly
Yeah, I keep looking at this from a writing standpoint, a magic world building standpoint. I think it's a really interesting limitation to make clear at this point in the series. Violet doesn't seem cut off from Taran when he's asleep. So there's also the added limitation that he's too far away, she can't wield. But he is hunting in Iron Flame when Takara surprises her with the Venon and she can wield. So I just feel like this is a limitation that hasn't been clearly defined yet, which adds a bit of frustration when trying to understand the magic system. But I'm just also just not loving it as a reader. It's like I kind of feel like by the end of book three, we are halfway through the series. I want to understand the magic system better at this point. And there's these new limitations being thrown at me, and I still don't fully understand them. And they're not fully defined. I wish I just had a better grasp on that at this point.
- [23:24]
Kinsey
Back in our initial reactions episode, I was like, I don't understand what the reason was for this, for why Rebecca took Taryn out for it. And I think it was more to do with. Of course it has wider magic system implications, but I think it has more to do with what Rebecca was trying to get. She needed Theophany and Violet to have this conversation without Violet killing Theophany immediately. Violet is to the point where she could wield a lightning bolt and strike Theophany dead before Theophany could communicate any information. And I think that Taryn had to be knocked unconscious because if he, had he been awake, she could have done that or he himself could have. I also think it's why Andarna was not there with them, because her fire, like, there would have been things that Rebecca would have been forced to write in. But also Violet had to get there and she would never go without Taryn. I hear what you're saying, and I agree it is a limitation thrown in pretty late in the game and it has a lot of implications. But I also find it super intriguing to consider that that might be why she felt she needed to have some reason that Taryn could not have just solved the scene.
- [24:36]
Carly
Oh, I definitely think it makes sense to have more limitations, and I'm fine with the limitation. I just wish we had a better definition around it. Like, how far away is Taryn when these. Yeah, like, what are our boundaries here? I wish I felt like I understood what that looked like a little bit more.
- [24:51]
Kinsey
I don't think she has put them so that she has more room to play in future books.
- [24:56]
Hannah
It's just like a really weird inconsistency because like you said, Carly, she could wield perfectly fine when he's off hunting who knows where with Tokares, but when he takes Mira's dragon away at the very end, she can't wield again when she's with Theophany. And then, like, it's the sleep versus unconscious. Like, why does it make a difference if he was like, willingly sleeping and unconscious in that way versus knocked out? Yeah, I'm right there with you. Like, it's the distance. Like, I need to know, like, how much was the distance. Like, why.
- [25:27]
Carly
That's what I mean, though. I just wish I could visualize the magic. You want to know what the road expectations. Yeah, I do. I want a little bit of a road map for this to understand it better, so that's all fair.
- [25:39]
Kinsey
I don't necessarily think that the sleep is like, the severity of unconscious.
- [25:44]
Carly
I feel like we have to make a lot of leaps still, which I don't love. I don't want to be feeling like I'm leaping. I want to feel like I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe I was sleeping.
- [25:51]
Kinsey
Glided through.
- [25:53]
Carly
Yeah, yeah. But now I don't have to because it's. All of my stepping stones are built, you know, like, so well.
- [26:00]
Kinsey
I would be really intrigued to look at the comparison between the way that Kinsey, you pointed out that this bond going dark is described versus Andarna's bond, but also when Len cuts off Taryn's bond, because that's also described differently from Andarna's unbonding. And I noted that because I was trying to use it as evidence at first before I reread it to say that I didn't think they unbonded at all. Because, you know, we also have Taryn being blocked off, but she still feels in some way the connection to Taryn in that moment that is different from even this. So, yeah, she's making some new magic system rules. And it is intriguing.
- [26:42]
Carly
Yes. That's one word I really would love to talk about. Theophany. Are we good to.
- [26:50]
Kinsey
We are.
- [26:51]
Carly
Make a leap. I like talking about Theophany.
- [26:54]
Kinsey
I do, too. I like to like her name. Yeah.
- [26:59]
Carly
So Theophany makes quite a few suspicious statements in her conversation with Violet. Quite a few. Yeah. It was more than one.
- [27:07]
Kinsey
Three things she said.
- [27:08]
Carly
Yeah. And like the theme that seems to be the rest of this book, everything can be interpreted several ways. So we are going to walk through them. She tells Violet she wants her to answer one single question. Quote, now tell me, which chose you first, the one who gifted you the power of the sky or the Irid? So much to unpack here. Why is Theophany asking who bonded her first?
- [27:31]
Kinsey
Irid.
- [27:32]
Hannah
Now, I can't be the only one here who immediately thought, oh, my God, my theory of Andarna bonding first is about to be proven. Right. Like, I was holding my breath. I was just like, I thought that was it. It's coming.
- [27:45]
Carly
I was holding my breath for you, girl.
- [27:47]
Kinsey
Especially when we got to the end, I'm like, fuck, yes. He's also mentioning it. And then, yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah. First of all, why would Theophany care?
- [27:58]
Hannah
Right.
- [27:59]
Kinsey
That's the big question. Right. Even if she knew the reason that Len gave when he brought it up, that would mean that Andarna could unbond Violet if she was the second to bond. How would Theophany know that? For one. And I'm wondering is if she's thinking that maybe Andarna would unbond Violet to then bond with her. I don't know. That seems like a stretch. But also, why else would she give a fuck? Yeah.
- [28:27]
Carly
I want to point out that Violet never answers this question.
- [28:32]
Hannah
Nope.
- [28:32]
Carly
She asks her one question, she lets Garrick go on good faith, and she never actually answers the question.
- [28:40]
Kinsey
That's a common thing in this book, quite frankly, between Theophany, Jack. Like, Violet's asking all these questions all the time, and all of a sudden.
- [28:47]
Hannah
She'S mute or doesn't care for full answers.
- [28:50]
Carly
Yeah, no, I mean. I mean, I guess she's got.
- [28:53]
Kinsey
She's. She is a little bit distracted, you.
- [28:55]
Carly
Know, but, yeah, girl has some unmedicated add, apparently.
- [28:59]
Hannah
Hang on.
- [28:59]
Kinsey
I do want to back up. Do y'all actually think Theophany's line of thinking could have been that somehow she could convince Andarna to bond her?
- [29:07]
Hannah
There's no way. And Darda?
- [29:08]
Carly
I don't think so.
- [29:09]
Kinsey
Then why else could she would. What is significant about Theophany knowing?
- [29:13]
Hannah
I think it has to do with the type of magic or something. I. I don't know.
- [29:19]
Carly
I wonder if she thought Andarna could use her magic to fix something in her that she wanted fixed. Oh, like that so she could return to Temple or something like that. Because she talks about yearning for it. So I. I wonder if it was something like that.
- [29:32]
Kinsey
But what does that have to do with Andarna bonding sec. Or maybe she just wanted proof that Andarna was the one that could bend a bond.
- [29:41]
Hannah
Maybe it has to be like a pure bond. Like if. If. If she was her second writer or the second to bond to her. Like, it wouldn't be, like, the most pure type of magic.
- [29:50]
Kinsey
She wouldn't be, like, the first one to lay claim.
- [29:53]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [29:54]
Carly
I do agree, though. There is significance to this, and we're gonna find out. I think more about it later, because I don't. I know we get a little bit more later chapters, but I don't think that's it. I think we're gonna find out more later.
- [30:04]
Kinsey
I hope so. Too bad she's fucking dead.
- [30:07]
Carly
Yeah.
- [30:08]
Kinsey
I was hoping she could just tell us.
- [30:10]
Hannah
I'm so glad she died.
- [30:12]
Carly
Going back to this point where I was making. Where she never answers the question, she kind of asks the question. When Theophany says this, she says irid. Like, questioning that term. And I think this is foreshadowing that Kinsey is right. So even though she's not really answering the question, in a way, she's questioning the question. But the next word that's said in response to the question is irid.
- [30:38]
Kinsey
I don't think I'm following.
- [30:39]
Carly
So Theophany asks, who bonded you first? The one who gifted you the sky or the irid? And Violet responds with irid, but it's not truly the answer to the question. She's questioning what irid is. And I Think it's foreshadowing that it really is. And Darnell and that Kinsey is right.
- [30:58]
Hannah
It totally is. Guys. You cannot convince me otherwise. And especially when Leothang came back in, Violet said, oh, well, Taryn spoke to me first, but Andarna was silent. I'm not giving up. It's totally Andarna.
- [31:11]
Carly
I am with you on this, Kenzie. And I think this scene is actually foreshadowing for it. And the way that it is written, it is like sneakily snuck in there.
- [31:21]
Hannah
I hope you're right.
- [31:21]
Kinsey
I love that. I love that. No, that's. I'm also right there with you. That she for sure bonded first.
- [31:27]
Carly
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:28]
Kinsey
It'd just be more fun too.
- [31:30]
Hannah
Why does it matter for it to.
- [31:32]
Kinsey
Have been brought up twice? It's significant.
- [31:34]
Carly
It's gotta matter more than that.
- [31:35]
Hannah
It's clearly significant. Just give us some answers, Rebecca.
- [31:38]
Kinsey
Please. We're begging. Please. In book four, I guess we should start clarifying when we manifest which books we want this in. All right, I do have a follow up question, and it's kind of following up from our last conversation last episode. So in this set of chapters, Theophany seems to be associating the power of the sky with Tern in that quote, right? Distinctively saying the one who gifted you the power of the sky, and then separating that from Andarna. And we were just theorizing that maybe Andarna and the Irid breed in general, that their power could originate from the sky rather than the Earth. That was connected to some theorizing on regions and such. And I'm wondering what we make of that and if that changes, like the theory that we were kind of trying to build out from last episode.
- [32:30]
Carly
I want to quickly explain why. I think it makes sense that Andarna's power has to come not from the continent the way it seems to for the dragons, because when they are in the Isles, the bond between Andarna and Taryn and Violet all works. But if Taran's power truly didn't come from the continent and it came from the sky, his bond with Sigale should work. It does not. So to me, this is saying that the reason why this bond is working, it has to do with Andarna. Because if it had to do with even Violet, if we wanted to go another step further, her bond with Zaden would work. And it doesn't. So it has to be from Andarna. So I'm wondering if this sentence is written in a way that it's really what she's talking about is power, not magic. Like her ability instead of where the magic comes from. Yeah. So she has the ability to utilize the sky, but her magic that she gets from Andarna is like the sky or something else. Maybe entirely. Because that's just a theory. But it's the only way I can explain it. Because I'm like, if it was Tarn, it would work out on the isles. That doesn't make any sense. If it was Violet, her bond with Zaden would have worked. It has to be Andarna. It has to be something she has access to everywhere. Over the continent, over the ocean, over the isles. The only thing I can think of is the sky. It could be something else. It could just be that it just is in Andarna always and it has not tied to anything. But that being said, if Taran's power really came from the sky, it would have worked out on the isles. So I do think it has to be something within Darna. And I think what she is saying here is she is referring to her ability to wield lightning, which comes from tarnishing. And when she says power, she is separating that somehow from magic.
- [34:24]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [34:24]
Kinsey
Okay, that makes sense. And I'm glad it doesn't debunk the theory because that one was really exciting.
- [34:28]
Hannah
I didn't like it.
- [34:29]
Carly
Okay, I'm glad.
- [34:30]
Hannah
Just makes you wonder how she could still wield lightning on the isles.
- [34:34]
Carly
But we're not going to go there.
- [34:35]
Hannah
We are not going to go there. We are not going to go there.
- [34:38]
Carly
We have dueling theories on that. We will get to that later.
- [34:40]
Kinsey
Dueling, I love that.
- [34:42]
Carly
Yep. So the next quote from Theophany. Some do not believe, but I knew as soon as the cream robed scholars whispered about the seventh breed in your war college. Pity I had to leave so abruptly. One hasn't been seen in centuries. And I was hoping to set eyes on her.
- [34:59]
Kinsey
And I want to clarify. Set eyes on her, which I'll come back to. But I want to say the first part definitely seems to imply that Theophany heard it when she was visiting for the Jack heist that was unsuccessful. But the second part. The second part has me spiraling because what was Theophany about to say when she like she was hoping to set. What? Like it seemed like she was about to say something else. Hoping to set eyes on her. Like she changed her mind.
- [35:32]
Hannah
I mean, Violet even makes a comment right after that that she like perceived it as the threat that it was. So I think here Theophany is Clearly wanting to harm Andarna or, like, use her for her power, not actually see her. I don't think she was setting an item on her or a certain magic on her. I think it was just a threat. But it's odd to me because in future interactions with Andarna, Theophany still never causes her any harm.
- [35:59]
Kinsey
No, she looks at her with reverence.
- [36:01]
Hannah
It's like a threat that she never actually uses. But here I think it was just meant to intimidate. I don't think she actually would have done anything to Andarna.
- [36:11]
Carly
She wants something from Andarna. I don't think she's just gonna immediately drain her. No, but what does she want from her? And what did she think she could maybe get Andarna to do for her? I don't know. And it's like, I do wonder though, because when I first read that, I was like, maybe she wanted to set her hands on her and drain her.
- [36:27]
Kinsey
It's implied. Another action aside of eyes on her.
- [36:31]
Carly
I suspect it has something to do with the fact that Theophany is also a little different than the other Venon because she was fully dedicated to a God and then broke that to become Venon. And I'm wondering again, I think it has something to do with that that we're gonna find out. Based on Violet's journey with her being touched by a God, and now she's a writer. It'll be interesting to see if her character arc mirrors Theophany's a little bit.
- [36:56]
Kinsey
I have a crack theory question.
- [36:58]
Hannah
Yes, Go for it.
- [36:59]
Kinsey
Do you think in this world, if you are a Venin, a Dragon Rider and dedicated, that you are some sort of, like you're elevated in some capacity that.
- [37:11]
Carly
That some sort of super immortal?
- [37:13]
Kinsey
Yeah.
- [37:15]
Carly
Avengers level, probably something. I feel like you have conflicting things happening with your soul.
- [37:23]
Kinsey
We know that Theophany went from dedicated to Venon, but if you've already dedicated your life to and essentially your soul, can you then make that exchange? Is that possible? Or is it maybe possible, and it's just seen as a betrayal against that God, who, you know, you gave away what is now owned by them, essentially, potentially, to the other God, which is Malak?
- [37:48]
Hannah
Well, in Theophany's case, it didn't actually make her stronger. It gave her another weakness. Because there's only like really two ways to kill Venon. But because she was dedicated to a God, she had that third way to.
- [37:59]
Kinsey
Be killed, which could just be the magic requiring balance. If you're now all the more powerful which, again, she only has two of those three. I'm wondering if there's something that happens, if she also was bonded to a dragon that somehow elevated her in some capacity. Again, literally just came up in the moment, so.
- [38:18]
Hannah
But maybe she was bonded to an Irid. Maybe that's why she cares so much and knows so much about their bonds. Like, I don't know. Probably not.
- [38:26]
Kinsey
She definitely seems to know. I mean, clearly she knew their name and, like, more about them and the fact that she looks with reverence.
- [38:34]
Carly
So I feel like this one sentence just opened up so many questions.
- [38:37]
Kinsey
So many.
- [38:38]
Carly
And the only other one I have is. Is that she talks about how she hears the scribes talking about Andarna, which means that she was on campus. Hearing about that, we knew she was on campus to get Jack, but this means she was on campus back when they originally started talking about Andarna as well, before she fled.
- [38:53]
Kinsey
Oh, I didn't read it like that.
- [38:55]
Carly
Yeah, so she's like. I knew as soon as the Cream Robe Scholars whispered about the Seventh Breed, so. Yeah, but they could.
- [39:01]
Kinsey
Couldn't they have been whispering about it, doing research? Because Violet's still looking to do her quest, so we know that they're looking for research in the Library. I assumed it was all on that same trip.
- [39:12]
Carly
Well, yeah, she says. Pity I have to leave so abruptly. But I'm just wondering. She is high enough up that she could have hidden her Venn in this, right? She's a Maven. They can hide who they are. Jack says they could have been on campus. So I'm just wondering, how long was she on campus?
- [39:25]
Hannah
Also, just remember that the weather was super bad up until she left the very next day.
- [39:31]
Kinsey
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:32]
Carly
So I'm wondering how long she's on campus for. I'm very curious. I mean, she's dead now, so I don't know if it matters, but I am curious. Like in Rebecca, like, in the background, plotting this. Like what? Her vision. Of what? Of theophany. Where she was in this world. Even in Iron Flame.
- [39:50]
Kinsey
So I really didn't think about it that far back. Yeah, they had to have been there long enough, at least to drain all of the people in the infirmary, which I know. Can either, I guess. Couldn't take that long. If they just. But they didn't comment that the floors were drained. It was literally bodies.
- [40:05]
Carly
I will say that the draining the bodies was always really interesting to me, because we know they drained the writers because of their connection to magic, but they were draining everybody in the Frumity. Which was mostly infantry.
- [40:16]
Kinsey
Maybe they were desperate.
- [40:18]
Carly
Well, but I'm thinking though that it's like that there's just a small amount of magic in all life and that they're just draining life and that there's like just some amount of magic tied to the fact that there's life or souls.
- [40:29]
Kinsey
I mean, Jack's down there draining rocks.
- [40:32]
Carly
I know, so. So I just thought it was interesting.
- [40:35]
Kinsey
So many questions. It opens so many questions. All right, next quote.
- [40:39]
Hannah
So the third quote is what a prize you've won. Sometimes I forget just how short mortal memory can be. Mortal? As opposed to what? Immortal? How fucking old is she?
- [40:50]
Kinsey
Which we still don't fucking know. How the fuck old is she?
- [40:53]
Carly
I guess it doesn't matter. She's dead now.
- [40:55]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [40:56]
Carly
But sometimes I truly forget the amount of times I've read these books. And I feel like the first time I read them I just immediately was like, okay, Venon. So vampire rules basically. I think I just associated a lot of vampire lore, mythology with the Venon, just based on the brief description we had of them in fourth wing. And I forget how little everyone knows about the Venin because Violet is so shocked by this that she is likely older than a typical mortal human's life. And it's something I just assumed for so long that I just. I just forget. I forget how little they know. But it's calling into question for me why even the Griffin flyers records and history isn't providing this context to them. Because why would they have erased their history if they got blocked out by the ward so early on? So I'm just curious why she isn't learning more about this from their history if it is removed from their history, why was it? So I'm a sucker for the history and wanting to know everything that has happened for the last 600 years though.
- [41:55]
Kinsey
Well, I'm kind of also curious if the older Venin are actually going out onto the front. Right. Because we know they've only recently as Venin in general and that they've got networks started coming out of the barrens and things of that nature. So maybe the Venin were just really good at hiding that and the people that were like the top, that were the oldest, were hiding essentially to hide that fact. Or maybe no one ever got close enough to know someone's age. Right. Maybe that's like secretive Venin stuff.
- [42:28]
Hannah
You know who else was good at hiding? The Irids.
- [42:32]
Carly
True little Chameleons.
- [42:34]
Hannah
Yep.
- [42:37]
Carly
Maybe they never got that far before a lot of the history got erased. For them to realize that Venin could stay old, like, they've never captured one that they know for sure was tied to Year one or whatever.
- [42:47]
Kinsey
How do you date one unless you're torturing it?
- [42:49]
Carly
Yeah, how do you know? And so that is a good point. But I do just find it interesting in general, though, how much it seems like the Griffin Flyer's own history seems to be lacking in a lot of information on the Vennon that they just don't seem to have. So I just find it interesting how much they don't know based on how long they've been fighting them and collecting information, which is hundreds of years.
- [43:11]
Kinsey
We did get some sort of thing that dated Theophany back centuries. Right. I don't know what that reference is. We'll keep an eye out on it.
- [43:18]
Hannah
But she's at least as old as General Sorrengel. We know that much.
- [43:23]
Kinsey
I mean, I think that this was also setting up for the fact that General Daramor could be alive still and that he could be, like, the ultimate Big Bad.
- [43:31]
Carly
Yeah, he definitely could be. If it is General Darrymore, I hope he is somehow tied or linked to one of our characters, like through old family lines or something like that. Because if it's just some random person out there, even if it's a person from history, if there's not an interesting link to the people, to the characters we're dealing with now, I would find that a little less interesting.
- [43:53]
Hannah
Yeah. Because it's an awkward plug. Like, by the fourth book, we still don't really know who the Big Bad. There's just a general group like, oh, the Venin are bad. Some of the leadership are bad. So I agree. We.
- [44:04]
Kinsey
And Theophany really wasn't that bad.
- [44:06]
Carly
No, she was kind of cool.
- [44:08]
Kinsey
I could fix it.
- [44:09]
Carly
She was interesting. Yeah, she was a very.
- [44:10]
Kinsey
She was kind of sad when she died.
- [44:13]
Carly
I would have definitely liked to understand her better and know more of her history. Like, I would love a Theophany prequel. Like, how did she become the way she is?
- [44:22]
Kinsey
I typed this somewhere in my notes. But Theophany was the worst at edging because she kept. She kept teasing all of these bits of information, and then we just never are going to get it from her. That sucks.
- [44:39]
Carly
Yeah.
- [44:40]
Hannah
Well, what did you think about her referring to Andarna as a prize?
- [44:44]
Kinsey
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, you're right. I went right by that. Thank you, Kinsey. I was so thrown off by how interesting that conversation was. But it's interesting to me that Theophany Calls Andarna her prey in the same conversation as, and also called her prize.
- [45:00]
Hannah
The prize part also really stood out to me, because there must be a reason the Irids wanted the mortals to forget how powerful they are. Why are they so much more powerful than dragons, like normal dragons? Why are they a prize? We know already that they do have unique magic that works everywhere. It works on the isles, it works on the continent. They can go invisible. They can potentially maybe burn Venon, and we know for a fact they can manipulate bonds. But why are they hiding?
- [45:29]
Kinsey
We've got the answer that they said of, like, they just don't want people utilizing them.
- [45:33]
Carly
Right.
- [45:33]
Kinsey
But also the fact that Theophany is calling her prey and prize here implies, which we've been hinting at, that there's some alternative use, some plan that Theophany has to utilize Andarna. And whatever that is, I imagine, is exactly what the Irids have been trying to prevent.
- [45:50]
Hannah
If we never get this answer, I'm going to be so salty.
- [45:52]
Kinsey
There's no way. I really hope we get all the answers to. I think it all kind of comes together. Whatever Theophany keeps hinting at, I think is tied to one thing. And I have a theory on what that is, but we'll get to it.
- [46:04]
Carly
Our next suspicious quote is, and when you come with him, you will remember that I let you live today and choose me, not Berwin, as your teacher.
- [46:14]
Kinsey
Which was Theophany's entire goal for this whole book. That right there. Outside of wanting in Darna, of course, and using Violet as a leash to get to Zaden, it was to try and get Violet to turn and be her recruit, not Berwyn's.
- [46:28]
Hannah
Question. If they get to choose their teachers, then why was Zaden bonded to Berwyn and forced to follow his summons?
- [46:37]
Kinsey
Well, okay, so I don't think everyone is. I think that Zayden's had something to do with Berwyn getting to him first. Like he was the one physically, like within proximity when Zaden turned. And then Berwyn maybe like, claimed him or like, you know, marked. That sounds weird to say marked his territory. That's pretend. I didn't say that. And that Berwyn claimed him in some way. But I think that Theophany is giving Violet a choice here. Quote, quote, unquote choice through the information that she's providing. Like maybe when two Venin try and claim a single recruit, then that recruit gets to choose between them. I'm not sure. But regardless, she's giving her the option here. And saying, like, you're for sure gonna turn. You should just do it in a way that's, like, more beneficial to you. But I actually just think that this is, like, a rare situation that 2 venon would be so interested in one random recruit. Because, as we know from Jack, it is rare that a maven like Theophany takes interest in one recruit at all. So I don't know that they would really have had to run into this often.
- [47:50]
Carly
Yeah, it's an interesting problem for them to be, like, fighting over a recruit. Right. Like, they're doing this. It doesn't seem like it happens very often, and they get to choose. But I just don't feel like there's any way Zaden would have chose Berwyn. But the thing is, is that, like, Theophany kind of also has Violet cornered and is still trying to make her channel, but she's still saying, like, you'll choose me. And so I'm just like, I. For me, I feel like I need so much more information before I can get to the leap of, like, that it's because he did it in front of Berwyn. She still wants Violet to choose her, even though she's trying to get Violet to channel to save herself from Theophany. And so if it was, like, if you're channeling to save yourself from that Venon, maybe that person becomes your teacher. But that still doesn't really work for me with, like, what is going on with Violet and Theophany later in the book when they're confronting each other. I don't have a solid idea of why Zaden is tied to Berwyn, other than it might fit in with my theory that they're related.
- [48:55]
Kinsey
Interesting.
- [48:56]
Carly
Maybe that's it. But I'm not sure if that would even be. If that would matter. Like, in these. Whatever this Venon Magic System rule is, that seems to happen with the teacher. So I find it an interesting choice of words. And I just. I need so much more information on this.
- [49:12]
Hannah
Maybe it's just, like, whoever finds them first because, like, Jack wasn't. He didn't turn because he was in danger from another Venom. Like, he willingly chose. He knew that there was magic there. He reached for it because he's greedy and we hate him.
- [49:26]
Kinsey
I think it's the first venom that claims him.
- [49:28]
Carly
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Hannah
Because he said that, like, the higher ups can, like, sense them, and they, like, go towards them, and it helps them be found. So maybe, like, that's why. I don't know.
- [49:37]
Carly
But she still wants Violet to choose she keeps saying, like, Violet needs to choose her. Even when she's like, I don't know, I just think it's interesting that she's like, you know, I'm gonna get you to turn and then you're gonna choose me.
- [49:48]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [49:48]
Carly
I don't know. I think that there's something about this rule system that's still missing. I think there's gonna be an interesting twist, I guess is what I'm trying to say. That like, we're gonna be like, oh, we did not have enough information to quite get there personally.
- [50:04]
Kinsey
Hence the book about gods.
- [50:08]
Carly
Next quote. Yes. Besides the fact that he's subpar and you'd be chained to him, powerless to resist his orders, I'll let you keep both your dragons while giving you what you want most in the world. Her gaze drops to the conduit as wind pulses. The others must be here. Control and knowledge.
- [50:29]
Kinsey
So I have a theory on the first part that we are saving for the theory section because it's slightly complex. But the second part seems to imply that Berwyn would not let Violet keep both of her dragons. Which makes me wonder if Berwyn has some issue with Irids or what. The issue is that Berwyn would have it all with this. We know that he kills Panchak's dragon at the end. Does he fear the dragons not submitting? Or does being bonded to a dragon have something to do with the possibilities of being cured? Like, I'm wondering about the motivations behind why Venon wouldn't want the recruit to have a second dragon if she's even saying just one. Because it seems like she's implying the second. But if he has an issue with the second, why not just take them both out?
- [51:16]
Hannah
I think it just allows the recruits to have another source of power and they want them to probably completely lose.
- [51:23]
Kinsey
Their soul and continue like be totally reliant on them.
- [51:25]
Hannah
Yeah, that's what I guess, because he did also try to kill Sigail. And that's what got Zaden to fully channel was to stop him from killing Sigail.
- [51:34]
Carly
Maybe Theophany has information about something Berwyn wants with one of those dragons. And it would take that dragon from Violet. Maybe she would.
- [51:41]
Kinsey
Specifically the Irid. That makes sense.
- [51:43]
Carly
Yeah, but even Taryn, I mean, he's a very large dragon. He's one of the most powerful ones on the continent. And he's the one that allowed her to have like that lightning wielding signet.
- [51:52]
Kinsey
So you think he'd want to drain him?
- [51:55]
Carly
I don't know, but it seems like maybe if there's the emphasis on both, maybe it's that Berwyn wants to take one of those dragons for himself for some purpose, whether it is to drain them or something. Something totally different.
- [52:08]
Kinsey
All right, interesting.
- [52:10]
Carly
Theophany says what Violet wants most is control and knowledge, which was also her entire character arc in Iron Flame. And how, like you were saying, Hannah, her signet must be more than we know.
- [52:23]
Kinsey
Yeah, I mean, I really think that Violet being something adjacent to, like, a Mind Walker rather than a dreamwalker would make a lot more sense, because if you look it up, and to be clear, Rebecca could use as much or as little of the general understanding of mindwalker as she would like. Mindwalking is a superpower that allows a person to control or read the minds of others. It can include controlling thoughts, emotions, memories, and behavior. It did not necessarily say dreams for the source I was looking at, but I feel like dreams fits with that, especially considering, like, Merryn's dream's memory. And if we consider what those abilities give someone access to, it is all control and knowledge. Not to mention the fact that, again, Rebecca has said that we've only seen 10% of her signet. I just think it would fit so much more with this idea of, like, her needing control and knowledge. And dreamwalking just doesn't seem to provide that as much.
- [53:24]
Hannah
That really makes me think what knowledge Theophany would have given Violet if, one, Theophany didn't die, and two, if Violet actually did turn.
- [53:33]
Kinsey
Yeah, this is one of those things that I was like, I was waiting to get more clues from, or hopefully from Theophany herself, but then she died. And it's not like she was gonna reveal the cure. Right. So if we take that out, I'm wondering if maybe Theophany would have told Violet about the Venon dragon origin story and potentially confirmed Carly's theories that the dragons are actually the true villains.
- [53:59]
Carly
I definitely have thoughts on this, but can we talk about it after our next quote? Because I think it'll make more sense.
- [54:05]
Kinsey
Please.
- [54:06]
Carly
Yeah. So I, I. But I do want to talk about this more, so everybody hold that thought.
- [54:12]
Hannah
I'm holding.
- [54:13]
Carly
Okay, we're going to come back to the knowledge holding. I want to quickly touch on this. Theophany says that she is not aware of anyone bonding two dragons, and I am wondering if this calls into question the theory that one of the first six did bond two dragons.
- [54:29]
Kinsey
Absolutely. Because she's not the only one that says it. I believe that the Irids reaffirmed that later on in the books. Maybe Leathan, but I'm not quite certain that no one else has ever bonded two dragons. But I think this is one of those situations that comes down to the same issue. Should we take our characters for their word, or is this another situation of our characters having limited understanding and feeding us their assumptions?
- [54:55]
Hannah
So, yeah, I'm not fully convinced that one of the first six bonded two dragons, but we do know that lreyre had a relationship with the Irids. But as far as we know, she never bonded one, which to me, I think that explains why the Orishan wards were never put up. Because if she was bonded to one, then I'm sure, sure they would have used their fire to put up the wards. But then again, how would the Irids know how to break bonds if they've never been bonded in the first place? Like, is that just something they innately know, or were they bonded to people before?
- [55:33]
Kinsey
I mean, maybe it doesn't have to be a person, because Leophan even says, like you can he. He uses it as a way to say that Andarna can break her bond to Violet, but he's saying any. Which is why people have theorized that potentially Indarna broke mating bonds. So maybe they know from just being able to manipulate bonds in general. But I do think that that is. I still think I lean to. There's someone who has.
- [56:00]
Carly
I agree. Otherwise they'd have to. They wouldn't know how, it seems like. But if they haven't in so long, I think it calls into question how old Len is.
- [56:10]
Kinsey
They also wouldn't know that it would matter if one dragon bonded first.
- [56:17]
Carly
True. Like, how do they know all this if this wasn't something they were doing?
- [56:21]
Hannah
So does it have to be one of the first six, though? Or could it have been any other writer throughout history?
- [56:27]
Carly
The only thing we know about the first six is that they were the first six to survive.
- [56:31]
Hannah
That's true.
- [56:32]
Carly
So who knows? But who knows what those dragon shenanigans were up to prior to after the wars being put up and this being the only real history we have. Hmm, could be lots of shenanigans going on.
- [56:45]
Kinsey
Likely lots of shenanigans.
- [56:47]
Carly
Well, we get that random reference to some random king from a thousand years before unification. So why is that history worth mentioning? It's a thousand years before unification. What was happening back then? Maybe that's the era's history that we don't know about that's been also lost.
- [57:04]
Hannah
So many questions, so little answers.
- [57:08]
Kinsey
So I just have a follow up question that I threw on here that I'm really excited to see what you have to add about the control and knowledge part on Carly. But I found it really suspicious that the line before the control and knowledge was about Theophany allowing Violet to keep both of her dragons. You would think that Taryn would have reacted to that part, but no, they're just a description. And then the control and knowledge line. So I think it's really notable that Taryn seemed to respond specifically to the control and knowledge line, not immediately to the keeping the dragons part. Now it could be a reaction to the idea that Jack brings up of humans turning Venon because they do not want to be reliant on a dragon. But the knowledge part has me wondering if there is knowledge that Theophany has that Taryn thinks could poison Violet against him possibly. Again, connecting back to what we were just discussing about how dragons are or were the OG bad guys.
- [58:12]
Carly
So the short answer is yes. I don't know that I want to say that the dragons were the bad guys, but I think that they potentially created this problem, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And I want to point out another quote going back some chapters. There is a moment when she is going to get the Venin in the brig where they're holding Jack and she is thinking about some history of Basgaeth. And Taryn snaps at her. Pay attention to the present, not the past. He doesn't seem to want her thinking about the past and the history. I've seen this happen a couple of times throughout the books. And so I don't think Taryn wants Violet digging into the history. So yes, I do think that this is all connected back to him not wanting her to have knowledge about the dragons. Kinsey, you look like you have to say something.
- [59:08]
Hannah
Yeah, well, he shouldn't have bonded a rider with the mind of a scribe if he wants to hide it.
- [59:14]
Carly
Yeah, he said he knew exactly who and what she was. And yet he seems mad that she seems to be a bit of a historian who wants to look into this and figure this out. And that seems to be concerning for him.
- [59:25]
Kinsey
So what is the promise that he made Violet? That he would not withhold information that was going to directly affect her? Something similar to that.
- [59:34]
Carly
Yeah.
- [59:35]
Hannah
Yikey.
- [59:36]
Kinsey
Maybe he rationalizes it by it being in the past, but all of that affects it, which is one of the morals of the story that Rebecca is trying to tell, which is that history tells us things that we should be learning. Maybe Taryn is not on the same page as Rebecca with that.
- [59:54]
Carly
Well, and the dragons have such big egos about not being right, about not making mistakes, about refusing to admit that. He keeps saying dragons don't make mistakes, but he knows bade bonded Jack, and yet he still says that. And so I think that there is definitely some cognitive dissonance happening within our dragons, and they don't want to admit to some of this. And I'm not even sure that they all know, because I think maybe only the older dragons know at this point, but there has to be some history that they want kept buried, because I've also noted in the past that the archives are underground and fireproof, which makes them dragon proof. So who really erased the history? Yeah, so I'm on team. The dragons are suspicious. I don't necessarily want to say that they were the bad guys, but that they inadvertently, potentially created this problem.
- [60:53]
Kinsey
Yeah, I think I'm sold on it. It's canon to me at this point.
- [60:57]
Carly
That is the proudest thing I have, is that I have gotten you on team. Dragons are part of the problem, and.
- [61:04]
Kinsey
I don't want them to be. But it does make for an interesting story, doesn't it?
- [61:08]
Hannah
The fables even say that it's also part of the dragons.
- [61:11]
Carly
So, yeah, even the fables point to the dragons.
- [61:13]
Hannah
It's all there.
- [61:15]
Kinsey
Oh, okay. Still, on the topic of Theophany, we have to talk about this lightning, because lightning cracks while Violet is facing her down, and she assumes that. But Theophany is also a lightning wielder.
- [61:29]
Carly
Right?
- [61:30]
Kinsey
Because also, this is the first time she's finding out that they could even wield at all. So clearly, there's a lot going on here. We now know that she is a storm wielder. But I'm wondering if we think that Theophany was wielding this lightning herself or whether or not this is a similar phenomenon as to what was happening with the random lightning strikes out on the isles.
- [61:51]
Hannah
Whatever happened in the isles was weird, but I do think in this moment, it was Theophany. For one, they're outside of the wards. We do get Violet mentioning magic is more wild outside of the wards. And it's possible that Violet didn't have control of her magic in the Isles because of that reason. But to me, it makes sense that Theophany does have the ability to, quote, wield lightning, even though she's not technically a lightning wielder because she's still wielding a storm. And storms can generate lightning on their own. So this happens at the end of the book when she's battling, there is lightning there then. And she's probably, in a way, creating it. Just like she can create tornadoes and rain. But even if Theophany can control the direction of the lightning in a way similar to Violet, it's not pure power like Violet's signet. So I don't think it would actually have like, the same effect being used as a weapon.
- [62:47]
Kinsey
I like to clarify. We know for sure the first time Theophany does it. Theophany owns it. She's like, yeah, that was me. But it's the other time. See, I really like her. But the other times is when it's so much more similar and leaves room for speculation.
- [63:04]
Carly
Yeah. See, for me, this is why I think that the second time is like a red herring. I think we're supposed to think it's Theophany because the first time she owns it. So the second time. Sorry, Kenzie, I know you have a few dueling theories right now, but it's fun. Cause it makes me think about mine that much harder. I think we are supposed to be led to believe it was Theophany in that moment because Violet is assuming it is her. However, I think it's eerily similar to what happens out on the Isles. I don't believe that was Violet. I know a lot of people do, and it's totally valid theory. That's just not what I'm leaning towards at this point. I do think it was a God. I think it's a God.
- [63:40]
Kinsey
Which one, Carly?
- [63:42]
Carly
I think it's probably Dune, because that's when it happens out of the Isles. So I think it's a God that is maybe frustrated with Violet's situation because, like, it happens out on the isles when she is almost killed or not killed. They are not intentionally trying to kill her, but when she is fighting the queen. And it happens here when Theophany is, like, threatening her. So I think it's Dune making her presence known that she is frustrated with who this person she is trying to curry favor with is being treated personally.
- [64:15]
Kinsey
That's where I'm at. So that makes sense. Especially if you consider, like, if Dune is like watching over there, watching a Venon who was dedicated to you and has forsaken you to the point where you have. You will murder her if she touches a foot on your temple. Any of them. And then you have someone who you favor, who you've been trying to gain her whole life to be on your side, to choose you over whatever other God is also out for Violet's Favor.
- [64:43]
Carly
Yeah.
- [64:44]
Kinsey
Would make sense that she's like warning her, essentially.
- [64:47]
Carly
Yeah. And to be clear, I know this is not a theory. I have a lot of evidence for it. It's not a lot of evidence, but it's so much fun. I enjoy it so much that I'm kind of attached to it at this point. And so I'm just looking for any little pieces I can stick to it.
- [64:59]
Hannah
So we're on lightning watch.
- [65:01]
Kinsey
Yes.
- [65:02]
Carly
We'll add it to our storm watch.
- [65:03]
Hannah
Yeah. All right. So the squad has returned from General Eidos punishment, and they make it clear to him that they make decisions as a squad and will take the punishment as a squad. They're essentially making it clear to him that he can't get them to turn on each other. What are your thoughts on the squad dynamics versus the leadership structure?
- [65:24]
Carly
I loved this whole part. I loved how Colonel Atos is attempting to stick it to them and they are just not having it. And they are just like, do whatever you want. We don't care.
- [65:35]
Kinsey
That's my squad.
- [65:37]
Carly
Yeah. And I love how it calls back to this book of Brennan passage. It says, quote, at some point during your second year, you'll realize the trust you feel for friends and family has nothing on the loyalty you develop for your squad. We really see that here in this moment where they are like, we make decisions together, we take punishments together. I love it. But I want to point out, though, that this seems to be this odd dichotomy within the military structure in Navarre. Leadership trains them to be these tight knit squads that function closer than family because they need them to function independently as a unit, but because of that, they become less controllable, which is antithetical to the military structure. So it's an interesting problem that they are creating in order to have these hyper independent squads that function very well together. I mean, I'm glad that they're functioning independently of leadership at this point because leadership needs people checking them a bit more obviously. But it is interesting within a military structure to see this happening.
- [66:44]
Hannah
They're definitely a lot more mature than their leadership too. But I wonder if it's more so like other squads. They're just kind of like, well, we're stuck with each other and we just have to use each other for power. But in Violet's dynamic, they're actually very trustworthy of each other. They care. I mean, I'm sure it's that way in other squads as well, but they do see each other as family and they can't be manipulated or controlled and that's great. I mean, Riddick put his feet up on the table just to piss off Eidos. He's like, yeah, we're sticking together. It's fine. We don't care.
- [67:15]
Kinsey
Well, we've also got quite a few references from leadership commenting on how strong their bond is. Like, the fact that they've had conversations about how strong that squad was specifically shows that it's like, a little bit more unique. But I still think that there's levels of that across the board. You even see, what is it? First wing, the suspicious wing? They are somewhat so. But I think that the difference for our squad is that they can be controlled as far as orders go. And that can be a weakness that the leadership can manipulate. But their true loyalty is not to Nevarre past following those some orders. It's to each other.
- [67:59]
Carly
Yeah, I really respect them for it.
- [68:01]
Kinsey
Me too. Go squad.
- [68:03]
Hannah
Iron Squad.
- [68:04]
Kinsey
Plus plus Yeah, I guess it's gotta be Iron Squad. Cause, like, not our whole. Our whole squad wasn't on.
- [68:09]
Hannah
Yeah. They don't care about the boundaries of the countries. They're like, it's your family. We're gonna go protect them. So.
- [68:15]
Kinsey
And I love that respect.
- [68:18]
Carly
Yeah. And it's notable that they all vote to go unanimously. No one dissents. So much respect.
- [68:26]
Kinsey
Now we're talking about Zaddy. My favorite topic every episode.
- [68:33]
Carly
Let's see how much you love this one.
- [68:35]
Kinsey
Yeah, not so much.
- [68:37]
Carly
There are continuous mentions of Zaden's loss of control and the concerns that Garak, Zaden and Violet are having about it. How do we feel about the changes we see in his character at this point and what it foreshadows for the series?
- [68:52]
Kinsey
This is not the kind of loss of control I like to see in him.
- [68:56]
Carly
We all know which one it is. Hannah.
- [68:58]
Hannah
Yeah, for me, unfortunately, once I hit that 21% mark on my Kindle, all the hope that I had for Zaden just came crashing down. Like the moment he channeled again to save the civilians. Which, like, great. I'm so glad you helped people. But the moment he did it again, I just knew without a doubt that Onyx Storm was going to end the same way as Iron Flame. And it was also really telling to me that there was such an emphasis on Zayden not trusting himself, saying that he's not whole, that the control is difficult, that he would literally kill anyone and do anything to protect Violet. So I think here he's dangerous and he knows it. And it breaks my heart. And that's why half of my candle Notes are me just saying my Shayla.
- [69:48]
Kinsey
Yeah. I had Denial of Steel. Yes, you did. Through the book. But in retrospect. Yeah. Xaden's control has been mentioned as part of his character. It's part of his personality from 4th wing all through Ironpym. I don't even know if you could, like, we should just type it control into our Kindles and just see it. Almost all of them are going to be about Xaden. To the fact that even people were commenting. Everyone attributes Zaden is just like having this extraordinary self control. Also a huge part of their sex scenes, which I think is very much so connected to this. So I see now why Rebecca pushed it so much. So he starts losing control, understandably here, but I'm gonna try and shine some positivity here. I actually see his extraordinary control as the way that he was able to hold onto his love for Violet at the end when he lost the rest of his soul. Because we know from Jack that that shouldn't have been possible. And I don't think, like, the average person would have been able to do that. It's a result of this extraordinary self control. So just trying to defend my man for a second.
- [71:08]
Carly
I find it concerning because control is so integral to who he is and how he feels, functions and how he makes decisions. Yeah. And if you don't have control, how are you making real conscious decisions? You are things. And, you know, we see that in this quote where he talks about how there's something broken between here he taps the side of his head and here. And he repeats the motion above his heart. I can't control it. I know. And so he. He is recognizing that there is this loss and it's concerning for what he will become capable of. Because if you have no control, I mean, he could become capable of anything.
- [71:54]
Kinsey
Yeah. I mean, and Violet even tries to, like, talk about the civilians, and it's like, no, girl. Like, he's. He's telling you he's past that. It must have been whatever in this scene specifically, because we've been talking about it overarchingly because it is like part of his character arc through the whole book. But like, this scene specifically, we really see it with how Garrick even talks about it to Violet, it caught me off guard. Even on rereads that, like he was telling Violet pulled the quote. I've never seen him like that ever. I don't want to think about what he would have done if he'd been out here beyond the wards, because I thought that he was Going to rip the stones from the wall. He's always prided himself on control. He has to when he wields that much power. And I'm telling you, he lost it when he heard you were crossing the border. Violet, he's not himself. Which goes perfectly into what you were just saying, Carly. But that combined with the fact that Garrick comes rushing in and is like, it wasn't her fault. It wasn't her fault. And Zaden comments that it's the third time that Garrick has pled her case. And I'm. And that just like, makes me feel like Garrick was scared that Zaden was going to hurt her. Holding it for a second, we had a listener submit a question, a fair question for us to discuss. And they want to know if we feel like Zaden would ever hurt Violet and if we. That's. If we think that's coming up in the next couple books. Couple books, I say. And there's two left. The next two books.
- [73:24]
Hannah
I think he already did. Like, just the fact that he keeps channeling that hurts Violet. He finally turned to Simon and he left him.
- [73:33]
Kinsey
He left him physically, but. Yeah, you're right.
- [73:36]
Hannah
But like, you gotta think about those mental wounds too, those emotional wounds. And he abandoned her. He said that he wouldn't have like the ability to walk away, and yet he just did. And he left her all alone.
- [73:49]
Kinsey
I mean, I think going back to what we were just saying, he's not himself. It's not a fair. This isn't necessarily going to be Zaden unless there is a cure. He's lost the majority of his soul. And we can say all day long that he saved onto his love, but how much of that is your soul and how much of him is still there?
- [74:06]
Hannah
And he might think that he loves her, but is he even gonna be aware that she's in pain? Like, physically, if he does lose control, like, he might not stop.
- [74:15]
Kinsey
He was barely able to stop when he had almost all of his soul. I don't wanna say it, but I think he's going to physically. But I don't know that we can claim that that's him. Not to give him a pass. So I will probably.
- [74:29]
Hannah
That's when we'll know it's not him.
- [74:31]
Kinsey
But yeah, I mean, at this point. Right.
- [74:33]
Carly
I think what Garak personally was afraid of was that Zaden was gonna lose control of his powers. Like he would use his shadows and that they would become out of control and that they would inadvertently hurt her. Like, not purposely, like he wasn't Making a decision to hurt her, but that maybe what Garak is seeing is that when Daedon loses control, his shadows just kind of lose control. And he's afraid that Violet could be caught in like the crosshairs of it. And that's what he is concerned about. Because I think he also knows that Dan won't react well to hurting Violet. And that would also be really bad for everyone around. Yeah, it would not be good for anybody. I think if he did that, he would never forgive himself. But I think if we see Zayden use his magic against Violet, use his shadows against her, or cause her any sort of physical harm or threat of physical harm, I think it's going to be because he is trying to actually get her to understand how bad the situation is and trying to get her to start protecting herself from him. I don't think that that's a good decision or a right decision, but I do think that if it comes to that, it'll be him trying to get her to stay away.
- [75:46]
Hannah
That explains why he started the signet sparring.
- [75:49]
Carly
Yeah.
- [75:49]
Kinsey
Oh, well, he tells her that. Right. She needs to know how to find him and, you know.
- [75:55]
Carly
Yeah. So.
- [75:56]
Kinsey
What a depressing topic.
- [75:58]
Carly
I know.
- [75:59]
Hannah
Woo.
- [76:00]
Carly
We can talk about my favorite thing, please, Mark. Twin second signet.
- [76:05]
Kinsey
Yes. So of course we have Garak revealed as a distance wielder. And I will never shut up about calling that. I won't. Though I will point out that I theorize that it was actually his unknown first and single sole signet, not his second. But Carly, your theory about the marked ones, at least some of them having second signets, was correct and it is in fact his second. Now, I am still confused about this part, so we're gonna talk about it. It's when Violet asks Zaden, how often do second signets accompany these particular relics? Which is a very suspicious way to ask that anyways. And then Zaden responded often enough to be sure Kaori can't possibly have accurate records. But not too completely that anyone questions why I only present with one. Carly, you have spent so long on FaceTime with me about this exact topic and this exact quote. Can you please translate this, your interpretation of this to me and anyone else who may also be confused by this suspicious wording?
- [77:20]
Carly
Yes, I will say you're not the only one. I've had this question in DMs. And it's funny how, like, there's things that trip me up and then there's things that trip up other people and you don't know what Those are going to be until people tell you and you're like, oh, that's the thing that's tripping people up.
- [77:33]
Kinsey
This one has tripped me. So face first, concrete.
- [77:36]
Carly
Well, and hearing you talk about why, I was like, oh, I totally understand why now. So I think it's important that people think about this sentence in two different halves. We have the first half where he's saying often enough to be sure Kaori can't possibly have accurate records. What that means is he is saying Kaori's records can't be accurate or leadership would be questioning why more marked ones don't have second signets in the second half of the sentence where he says, but not too completely, that anyone questions why I only present with one. So in that half, he is explaining that even though it seems to happen frequently, at least amongst the marked ones, it is not 100% a guarantee, which is why none of the marked ones question why he only presents with one signet, since he is hiding his second signet from everybody but Violet.
- [78:35]
Hannah
Which is funny because he's the only one that has a confirmed dragon that bonded a relative.
- [78:41]
Kinsey
Yes, yes, but that. So I've actually gotten a lot of people message me about that one. And that part still makes sense to me because his was unique. His is not like the situation that all the other March ones are in. His grandfather was not written down on the records. His great uncle was. And so that doesn't apply across the board to the other marked ones. And I think people are trying to apply this to Zaden and he just. He has like a unique excuse, essentially. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's when Rebecca threw in what she did at the Denver Q and A, that made me question whether I understood this or not. And so I'm gonna give you the question and her response and then, Carly, you can break it down for us. Okay. So Rebecca was asked, can you give us some insight into how Kaori's records for dragon and rider bonds are incorrect? And so I interpret it to be a reference to this exact quote from Onyx Storm. It was an Onyx Storm book tour. They were on the topic of Onyx Storm, and this is the only mention of Kaori's records. Rebecca responded, so what makes you think the members of Empyrean always give their correct name to give to their rider? The riders aren't aware it's a different name. It's the rider that tells you the dragon's name for record. And then she goes on to further explain. So when the rider appears after threshing to give the name to the person who's recording the bonds. It's the rider that says the name, not the dragon. End quote.
- [80:10]
Carly
Yes. It caused a lot of chaos. Everybody freaked out, I guess, when she said that. Yeah, we all did.
- [80:17]
Kinsey
And it prompted what I found two or three hour phone call facetime between you and I, where I was like, if this is how you interpret it, then it means these things. But there's also this way. So you've narrowed it down to three scenarios of which this could mean. Please enlighten us. Yes.
- [80:34]
Carly
So I think it's important to remember we have what's canon in the book. And then we have things Rebecca Yarros has given us in interviews. And we're not exactly sure what exact situation she is referring to, which dragon, which situation. So we have to remember that. So the three possibilities with the marked one's second signets is that one, either the relics are responsible for the second signets for the marked ones, and Zaden just has this unique situation where his grandfather dragon bonded him.
- [81:03]
Kinsey
And then that means that not all of their relics will give them a second signet, though, because we know that. Correct. Okay. Okay.
- [81:09]
Carly
Yeah. So the relics are responsible, but not everybody gets one. The second possibility is that some dragons of previous family members sought out some of the marked ones, and the relics played a part in second signets as well. So it's like there's a mixture of people whose previous family's dragon sought them out, and they have these relics, and it's increasing the odds that they're going to get a second signet.
- [81:37]
Kinsey
Which ties into this quote from Rebecca saying that the way that they were able to do that is by lying to the person taking the records and potentially also the rider.
- [81:45]
Carly
Yes.
- [81:45]
Kinsey
About their name.
- [81:46]
Carly
And then the third possibility is that it turns out relics, they're not giving them second signets at all. And that what Zaden was doing here was cagily lying to Violet about what caused them. And that all of the second signets are only attributable to dragons bonding within the family line.
- [82:03]
Kinsey
Which also goes into Rebecca's quote.
- [82:07]
Carly
I think what muddies the waters for this whole thing is because Zaden has both.
- [82:11]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [82:12]
Carly
It causes a lot of confusion. And I think we have to think of Zaden separately, outside of all the other marked ones, because I could have.
- [82:17]
Hannah
Looked at the relic and used that as a marker just to find them during threshing. Because Zaden does also say, our dragons came looking for us. They knew what they were doing. And then he clarifies and says that they are building their own army. An army for what? To fight against the Venon, the Empyrean. Because we do know that the Eretian riot was all for altering the Vordstone. So I'm just trying to figure out what their motives are. Hannah, I haven't.
- [82:44]
Kinsey
I've got. My. Have had my hand raised, because I have a theory on that. Because I think that if it is playing a role as like a visual marker, right, for the dragons to seek this out, if that's one of the three options that it turns out to be true, I think it would make a lot of sense to me if the relics aren't actually giving the second signet, but the dragons are seeking them out specifically to get that second signet. Or if it's a case of it being something different, it would make sense if they're trying to build an army that they are targeting humans that would be more likely to rebel. It would make the most sense that the people whose parents were murdered by the country for rebelling, first of all, would then align with their values and want to rebel. And hence whatever it is, whether it's against the Empyrean itself, which I don't think I lean to it being that I think it's really truly that they're finding that what Navarre is doing is wrong. Rebecca has said so much in interviews, and I think that they just knew that their chances of finding. They didn't want to bond.
- [83:51]
Carly
Who would like.
- [83:52]
Kinsey
It's not like Taryn was going to go out there and bond Jack knowing that Jack was just going. You see what I mean? So I think it's more about the fact that those riders would be on the side of the rebellion.
- [84:05]
Carly
They are purposely picking people who will further their agenda. Yes. Yes.
- [84:10]
Kinsey
What a wonderful way to sum up what I just struggled to say.
- [84:14]
Carly
That's what I'm here for. My only thought on this, and I know I touched on this back with the flyers, and I'm like, why aren't the flyers powers growing to balance magic to what's going on with the Venin and the dragons? And I mentioned that earlier, like, it would make sense if we saw the Griffin Flyer's magic capabilities increase to be better and matched with the signet capabilities of the dragons and the Venin. Like, why are they so out of balance with everybody? I want to say that here as well, they are building an army of riders with second signets. What new imbalance are they creating? How Will magic respond?
- [84:51]
Kinsey
Ooh, that's such a good question. But it also begs the question we just talked about last episode, which is, is it already unbalanced? And that is actually a balance corrector. We don't know in situations, I'm assuming it is leaning to unbalancing things.
- [85:06]
Carly
But like I think I said in our last episode too, it feels like an arms race. This might be making the situation worse. I don't know.
- [85:14]
Kinsey
Well, let me ask. Does it. Could it technically be the balance to the fact that Venon are now recruiting from Besgaeth? Because we knew that they were recruiting in Clispane and so you get more Venin recruits. Clearly that's more magic that is on if we're going to put this simply of good versus Evil. And so we're applying the dragons to the good side of current times and the venom to the evil side. If evil is now recruiting more, that's increasing their power. Assuming we were ever at a balanced point. And now they're also recruiting from Basgaeth, which is even more. And so now these dragons who are bonding less. So we already have less bonded riders who is throwing off the balance. Now they're getting double the signets. Does that make up for the fact that there's less dragons that have bonded so less riders out there because now they have double the signets? I don't know. It doesn't seem like there's even that many marked ones that are in active service right now. Right. So it's. So it's such a good question. We have to know when the balance was ever. Even to see what was thrown off or what was account. It seemed. It's complicated.
- [86:20]
Carly
Yeah. I wonder somewhere in Rebecca's planning of this, like the scales of magic and what's out of balance, like what this does. Does it make it more imbalance or less in balance? And when was it in balance? And what was the next catalyst for pushing us towards this point?
- [86:39]
Kinsey
Well, I'm pretty certain that the reason that sparked this mind fuck that I that is my brain when I try and think about this is a quote from this book, specifically from someone who was saying that magic hasn't been balanced for a while or something. And then I was like, oh. Cause I always thought of it as like it tilts a little, then it tilts straight back and then it's like this constant counterbalance. And I think it is slightly. I think that she was hinting to that. But I'd also like to add that as much time as we Spend reading this book, analyzing it, prepping outlines, recording and discussing it. FaceTime calls where we talk about this book. There's no way that Rebecca has this much time to dig into the minute details of her world building and her story and each character while she's also writing it. Then I always go back to, is this one of the things we're going more than Rebecca could have ever been able to think deeply into. But to be fair, this is her magic system. It's something she set up. So I think this is one example where she's had to have thought about.
- [87:38]
Carly
This part and that nature likes all things in balance. It's such a huge scene that I feel like she knows what it needs to be in balance and what put it out of balance. So I'm just interested in what category this goes in.
- [87:51]
Hannah
Yeah, I do like the thought that because there are less dragons bonding, that they're purposely bonding people to give them second signets. I feel like that wouldn't make the balance worse. I feel like that would help them to be more balanced, hopefully, but we'll see.
- [88:06]
Kinsey
I could imagine that it's been unbalanced with the fact that there's less dragons bonding and that the veteran are now coming in and recruiting. I think that that demonstrates a huge shift. We don't have a lot of history before that. Right. But at least we know that things were kind of like at a neutral stall for quite a few years.
- [88:22]
Carly
Quite.
- [88:22]
Kinsey
Quite a few centuries for a minute. So maybe that was like, kind of a balance before something tipped it.
- [88:29]
Carly
But hard to know.
- [88:32]
Kinsey
Are we moving on to Jack?
- [88:34]
Hannah
Yep.
- [88:35]
Carly
I think we have to talk about everybody's favorite character.
- [88:38]
Kinsey
Oh, man. I can't believe dude is still alive. Okay, so Imogen and Violet go to Question Jack, which they've seemingly done weekly with Imogen erasing Jack's memories so he doesn't remember and can't snitch on them. Brilliant use of her signet. Love to see it all to get information from him. And here's what we learned. So we're going to walk through, like, a bunch of the things that we learn about Vennon from Jack. So Vennon can sense each other when they're new, which is how Xaden was able to track down the 17 Venn at the beginning and the ones trying to get to Jack. He explains that it's that way so that they will be, quote, found and raised by an Elder, usually a Sage. But in rare cases, a Maven may take interest, which was a clue that.
- [89:18]
Hannah
A Maven, like theophany, does not typically seek out a recruit, as she is with Violet.
- [89:24]
Kinsey
Yep. And he also reveals that, quote, initiates, Asims, we're all traceable to one another, but the Great hall could fill with Sages and Mavens and I'd never know. Neither would you. This immediately. My note in here literally is ASIMS can trace one another because I kind of just assumed it was just initiates. And so what that led me to Spiral about is I kind of assumed that Initiates is the first phase. So if it's happened recently, Zaden was going to detect it. And then I was like, okay, but clearly our squad hasn't turned Venom recently, because he would have detected that. So then I was thinking, okay, maybe they could still be Venon, but, like, it's been a while, so they'd be an Asym at this point. But now he's saying that Initiates could trace Asymms. So I don't think it's super likely that anyone in our squad or of lower rank in Best Gaiet is actually Venon at all. Because they're not gonna be Sages or Mavens.
- [90:29]
Hannah
That'd be insane, right?
- [90:31]
Carly
No, I don't think any of our squad is. And I think before we knew this, I was like, maybe this. Like, these are the list of people suspicious in the squad. That could be it. But now I'm like, definitely can't be any of them. Though I do have a line of thinking of who a Maven might be, but we can talk about that later.
- [90:44]
Kinsey
Well, I just want to note that we were. I mean, we had in our theories episode a whole, like, who could be Venom Full out discussion. It was like, anybody could be there.
- [90:52]
Hannah
I could stand by most of that.
- [90:53]
Carly
List, by the way, for this.
- [90:55]
Kinsey
I feel like I walked away from Onyx Storm being like, no, there are a lot more limitations to this. Leadership is still free game, pretty much. But any other second ears, first wing? Like, I really don't think they're going to be Sages. Definitely not Maven at that point. But unless they're just immortal and young. Like, maybe they froze their age young, but that's.
- [91:18]
Hannah
That's true.
- [91:19]
Kinsey
Complicated. So, all right, so Jack continues and he says, makes you wonder who's been channeling here for years, doesn't it? Who's been trading information for power? Kinsey.
- [91:30]
Hannah
Well, we do know for a fact that Panchik is a traitor. I firmly believe that he was already a Venin before the end of Onyx Storm. Although I do know some people don't think he turned until his dragon actually had died. But let's just say that if Panchak was already a Venon, this means he's likely a Sage or a Maven, because he was able to not only hide himself from Zaden, but Jack also says they've been doing it for years. So this man has been probably potentially been channeling for years, and someone is clearly trading information for power. Who else just rose to power suddenly? General Eidos. And he has a very difficult time controlling his temper. Who else has difficulty controlling their emotions right now?
- [92:19]
Kinsey
All right, this is fair. That's fair. I'm actually quite hesitant. I thought I would be more. He's totally venom. But after Rebecca, in a Q and A, emphasized that something she's trying to get across to us is that not all evil characters are Venin. Like, you don't have to. You can still be evil without turning. There's other forms of evil. And I think it would make General Atos a much more interesting character if there was another reason for him just being evil and thinking. Because he clearly thinks that he is on the right side of the war. So I think for him thinking that, but also not being Venon and being on Nevar's side, I think it speaks to a different type of evil. That would be really, really intriguing. And I feel like it might even be rooted in something else. Right? Like not Venon. But then that begs the question of, like, who. Who else would it be? And I'm thinking, like, maybe a scribe. Like maybe Markham.
- [93:17]
Hannah
Yeah, but he was on my list.
- [93:20]
Kinsey
You're like, yeah, he can. He can get it too, but not in that way.
- [93:25]
Carly
Yeah, I do have an idea who could be a high up maven. Venon.
- [93:30]
Kinsey
Do tell.
- [93:31]
Carly
On campus. Do you want me to say it now or save it for theories?
- [93:34]
Kinsey
Ooh, I'm kind of scared.
- [93:36]
Hannah
What do you prefer?
- [93:37]
Carly
We can just do it now if you want.
- [93:39]
Kinsey
Please.
- [93:39]
Carly
It's quick.
- [93:40]
Hannah
Okay.
- [93:41]
Carly
So, Hannah, this is inspired by something you pointed out.
- [93:44]
Kinsey
I am honored.
- [93:46]
Carly
Do tell. If you remember, in our Theories episode, I was like, maybe Quinn's Venin because she could hide her eyes.
- [93:51]
Hannah
I remember.
- [93:52]
Carly
And I was like, but Quinn died, so clearly she's not Venn in. However, who else is an illusionist?
- [93:58]
Hannah
Kaori.
- [93:59]
Carly
Professor Kaori. And who has the guide? You pointed out on the personal flaws and weaknesses of dragons, and he stayed behind.
- [94:09]
Hannah
Instead of going to Orisha. When Violet was certain he would go.
- [94:12]
Carly
He made sure he stayed behind. You pointed out that journal he was keeping it on, I guess. Not weaknesses. It's the personal flaws and habits of dragons you pointed out. I've thought about it ever since. When Quinn died, I was like, there has to be somebody who can hide themself. I think it's Kaori.
- [94:30]
Hannah
Oh my God, that would make me so sad. I love him.
- [94:33]
Carly
I love him too.
- [94:34]
Hannah
I will say.
- [94:35]
Carly
I think that's why.
- [94:36]
Hannah
Hannah, close your ears.
- [94:37]
Kinsey
But I can't. I've got headphones.
- [94:41]
Hannah
Okay. This is not a spoiler. If you don't know.
- [94:44]
Kinsey
Well, you can't say spoiler on the podcast.
- [94:46]
Hannah
That's true. No, it's a different thing. The voice actor for Kaori does play a bad person in the Acotar series. I'll leave it at that. Oh, well, maybe he fits a type.
- [94:57]
Carly
Interesting. Ever since you brought up that journal, Hannah, it's been super suspicious to me. He's an illusionist. I've been marinating on this for a while, but everything we've learned in Onyx Storm, I think it might be him.
- [95:08]
Hannah
Oh my God.
- [95:09]
Kinsey
I think it's really interesting. I think it could also the fact that he has all the records could make it really, really interesting.
- [95:15]
Carly
Who knows more about dragons and the venom seem to have a vendetta against the dragons.
- [95:19]
Kinsey
His obsession with dragons, almost reverence, but almost like jealousy.
- [95:25]
Hannah
Also, Kaori did go with Panchak when they did their two week rotation to learn about the runes. Didn't he go with them to Orisha because he was trying to figure out, am I thinking wrong? Did that happen?
- [95:37]
Carly
I'm just not sure that I remember.
- [95:38]
Hannah
It's all a fever dream to me because I was so sleep deprived the first time I had read Onyx Storm and I'm not there yet in my reread, but yeah, he was because when Mira was kidnapped, they asked Kaori to show Dreythis. So he went there and Violet had said, I'm not going to answer your questions about Andarna and blah, blah, because he was still going to ask questions to interrogate. So he went and he was there with Panchak. And then we're assuming that because Mera was kidnapped that Panchak was the one to be like, hey, let's go fuck him up. Telling him what to do to ruin their plans.
- [96:10]
Kinsey
Yeah, shit, that's a good theory.
- [96:13]
Carly
I think there's good foreshadowing for it because there's also a moment happens in the next set of chapters where Zaden comes back to campus and he's in a doorway and he's like leaning against the doorway and he's standing right next to Kaori. But there's like no reason for Kaori to even be there. He's like, completely silent. He doesn't have like a single line in that scene.
- [96:29]
Hannah
That's true.
- [96:29]
Carly
And it's almost like to point out that Zaden can just be next to Kaori and have no idea.
- [96:33]
Hannah
That was really weird scene. I was like, why are they in his office? It would also play into the fact that not everybody who's Venom's like, evil. Because, like, we don't really get evil vibes from him.
- [96:44]
Carly
We do.
- [96:45]
Hannah
Definitely from General Eidos. But Kaori seems like an overall nice guy.
- [96:49]
Kinsey
I like him.
- [96:50]
Carly
Yeah, I know.
- [96:51]
Hannah
Even Theophany's like, she seemed nice. I mean, maybe we're just crazy, but.
- [96:55]
Carly
Like, I'm just saying, he's obsessed with dragons. He has that very suspicious journal he's been keeping. Hannah, I got questions. I would say.
- [97:04]
Kinsey
I felt like that was gonna come up with the fact that he had, that it would be used against them. I thought of it in terms of Navarre, but sounds like it could be the Venon have access to all that information, which again, for Rebecca to throw out the Kaori's information thing and have this whole thing about the dragons specifically making his records incorrect. I really like that.
- [97:29]
Hannah
Wasn't it Jack's squad that stole the journal too? Like, what if Kaori could have been the maven to help Jack after he turned? But there's also Panchak.
- [97:41]
Carly
Yeah, there's.
- [97:41]
Kinsey
Well, and he also could be a sage, because remember, it's rare for mavens to take interest.
- [97:46]
Hannah
That's true.
- [97:48]
Kinsey
So the next thing that Jack revealed was that only initiates bleed, asking Violet to ask him why that is the case. And once again, Violet does not ask.
- [98:00]
Hannah
One of my biggest pet peeves of this book is she gets like, mind blowing information. She's just like, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I'll tuck that away for later.
- [98:09]
Kinsey
I think you're giving her too much credit. I don't know if she even thought about it that much.
- [98:12]
Hannah
I think she did. I think she was like, oh, that's interesting. But I. I am frustrated, obviously, that she did not follow up on Jack's statement, but she also had limited questions she could ask. I think she had said right away, like, I have four questions for you. So she just tucked it away. But I think it's significant what he said because it will help us identify who may have turned when and what level of venom they are. Which means it's important to pay attention to who does and doesn't bleed when they are injured or attacked. So if they don't bleed, then this tells us that they are secretly asim or higher. So we are also not just on Stormwatch, but we are on Bloodwatch to find a gun in traitors.
- [98:54]
Kinsey
Oh my gosh. Blood Squad?
- [98:58]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [98:58]
Carly
For real?
- [98:59]
Hannah
Oh my goodness. Now Jack also explains that you don't have to be taught how to become Venon if you're already experienced with the flow of magic. Someone who had never wielded would require instruction. But a Dragon Rider or Griffin Flyer. He shakes his head. The source is there. We just have to choose to see it. To bypass the gatekeepers and take what's rightfully ours.
- [99:20]
Kinsey
So this cleared up a long standing question of mine because I was concerned and we talked about it quite a few times on here, about the morality of someone turning Ven in without really knowing what they were doing. Exchanging their soul. But do you even know you're doing that? And how. That technically wouldn't make them bad if they didn't know like evil, if you don't really consent to that. But this does show that they do at least need to be instructed. Which still I suppose leaves room for Carly's theory on someone being tricked into thinking it was okay, but does clarify that like not your average person is not going to be able to go out there and just know to channel from the ground.
- [99:52]
Carly
I don't think it makes it clear that people know the price or that even if they do know the price that they could be tricked into thinking, well, it's just a tiny little bit of your soul.
- [100:01]
Kinsey
Yeah, no, I agree. I think they still don't have to know the. I think I'm just. It takes that out of the equation. If I as a human walked outside and felt magic down there and was like, oh, let me just pull that. I just don't know the price.
- [100:12]
Hannah
It's not an accident.
- [100:14]
Kinsey
I think they're more likely to know about it and make it like less of a. It's gotta be more of an intentional thing. Now that's why I was saying someone could be coaxed into it and like that whoever was instructing them was intentionally leaving that consensual information out. That's still a scenario. But I think it complicates things a little bit less that not everyone can just go out and then sell their soul without realizing it.
- [100:36]
Carly
I do think though that like if you don't understand the price it's not really a fair transaction. I've always said. It kind of goes back to Fae rules for me about how they can like, like trick you into things and that type of stuff. But I do find it interesting that it kind of seems like. That seems to be vague. And that maybe even if they did know, they could be like, oh, you're gonna take a little bit not understanding that you'll.
- [101:03]
Kinsey
They can't stop once they start, you'll.
- [101:04]
Carly
Never be able to stop. Yeah. And that. That doesn't all seem to be clear.
- [101:08]
Kinsey
Yeah.
- [101:08]
Carly
So it's interesting how it can happen to people. How they can make that choice, but also not understand the choice they're making.
- [101:17]
Kinsey
We also learned that their information is on a need to know basis for lower ranking Venon. But clearly we know that Jack knows something that Theophany does not want him to know. So much that she wants him dead and will go on a heist attempt to assassinate him.
- [101:36]
Hannah
Maybe it has something to do with her rivalry with Berwyn, since we know that Berwyn is Jack Sage. But how does Theophany even know that? Jack knows and has been spilling their secrets. Like Zaden, Violet and Imogen, as far as we know, are the only people who have been able to break Jack while he's been in his cell. So unless one of them is a traitor or they're being watched, Theophany shouldn't know very much about Jack and what he's saying. Unless Berwyn is infiltrating Zaden's mind while he sleeps. And Berwyn's, for whatever reason, shared that information with Theophany.
- [102:12]
Kinsey
Yeah, I don't. I don't interpret this as her having to know that he has been spilling secrets.
- [102:20]
Carly
I think that she probably knew that.
- [102:22]
Kinsey
He knew things from before he was captured that he was privy to something that was somewhat significant. But I think that this is a scenario she just doesn't want to risk it. Like she knows they're going to torture him. And Jack is known to be selfish if you know him for two fucking seconds. So I think it's just a precautionary thing. Though I do think it would be really interesting if it is tied to Berwyn.
- [102:45]
Hannah
Finally Jack says, quote, you talk like I'm diseased. When what I really am is free. He wavers. Well, free in part. We trade some of our autonomy in exchange for unfettered access to power. Maybe you see it as a loss of our soul, but we aren't burdened by conscience or weakened by emotional Attachment, we advance based on our own capabilities, our own talents, and not at the whim of some creature. There's no cure because magic does not negotiate and we do not wish to be cured.
- [103:14]
Kinsey
First of all, I know we've been kind of breaking these down. I think that one's crystal clear. It does prompt a lot of questions. Specifically, it did foreshadow and prep us for the fact that Satan was going to be swallowed whole, gonna lose his soul. Now, it contradicts the fact that he was able to actually grab onto some emotional attachment with his love for Violet. But the thing I really want to talk about with this is, is there a true cure for people who wanted to be Venon? Could there even be a cure for that? Because clearly rare cases like Zaden who turned for love have a chance. But if the end goal of the book is curing everyone, is that even possible? If nature likes all things in balance, you cannot have good without bad. So is the balance truly magic? I know that, Carly. You have a theory that all magic will have to be erased, and I think that that still stands. But that's not necessarily a cure for this evil, this soul corrupting evil that they want.
- [104:27]
Carly
Yeah, I don't know how you keep things in balance if you still have signets and all that power, because it just doesn't quite work to me that things stay in balance with only the dragonriders having access to signets.
- [104:40]
Kinsey
No, I think it would be a case where everyone would. I think it's the only solution. I just don't see how there could be a cure for someone who doesn't want. It isn't the disease, if we're going to that analogy, that someone would exchange their soul, the. The disease of evil, isn't that the corrupting aspect? You can't just give someone a tonic. I know it's not that. But like, doesn't the cure have to almost change that person's personality?
- [105:08]
Carly
Well, yeah, because I think part of it would have to be. You'd have to not want power.
- [105:11]
Kinsey
And how do you do that when you've got a million Jacks out there? Not really a million, but like, that's who turned for the most part.
- [105:18]
Carly
Right.
- [105:18]
Kinsey
Maybe not originally. Maybe they were forced by the dragons into it. But at this point it has become a selfish thing outside of cases like Zaden's. And it just makes me question on a morality standpoint, how there even could be a cure. It's the alternative. Killing them. I guess it's what I'm going with.
- [105:39]
Carly
I guess Perhaps the cure, if it is removing access to the magic, if the well gets cut off, they either have to evolve like Leopin said, and cure themselves, or they perish. I'm not sure how it'll work, but I do agree that I don't think all Venin will be cured, because I think you're right. Like, they have to want to be cured. They have to have wanted to perhaps change for the right reasons and want to change for those right reasons back again. But I don't know what it is yet. I don't know that we have enough to have those answers. I agree, though, that I don't think they can cure all of them, because they have to want to be cured, and they don't want to be cured.
- [106:24]
Hannah
I think the moment they lose their soul completely, even if they did have a desire at some point to be cured, they pretty much lose that once they channel all the way. Perhaps it could explain what Nolan was trying to do by mending Jack's soul, but he didn't want it.
- [106:43]
Kinsey
Yeah. Well, then we do see some personality improvement with that. We saw him be kind somewhat. I mean, he saved Violet's life, and I know everybody's been like, why would he do that if he's. So maybe that is. It is a mending of the soul, though. It's claimed that it's dead. But clearly Nolan showed that that's not the truth.
- [107:01]
Carly
He didn't actually mend him, though. I think that that was all an act, personally. But maybe we'll get more information finally from Jack in the next book. Anything significant if Violet finishes her questions? Yeah.
- [107:16]
Kinsey
Well, I have one more for you.
- [107:18]
Carly
Okay.
- [107:18]
Kinsey
And it's the final one. Violet asks herself at some point, will Zaden stop wanting to be cured? So that's my question. Do we think that Zaden will stop wanting it?
- [107:30]
Hannah
I really wish I could be more positive in this episode, but I think there's a chance that he could reach that point where he doesn't want the cure. We don't know how far his love for Violet will go when he continues to channel? Because who's to say that if he hasn't miraculously severed that part of his soul in the temple or whatever, who's to say he's not gonna lose that last remaining piece the moment he channels again? Cause he will channel again.
- [107:59]
Kinsey
Honestly, he probably did during the 12 hours at this point.
- [108:03]
Hannah
Yeah. We just don't know what's gonna happen to that last remaining p. And he loses his other feelings, so he might not care.
- [108:11]
Carly
I Think it's possible that Dane will get to a point where he feels irredeemable and as such, shouldn't ever in the future be with Violet, that there's no fixing it, that he will do things that are unforgivable, essentially. And that he won't see himself as worthy of being with her and as such, may not want to be cured. So that he won't be tempted to be with her.
- [108:34]
Hannah
My Shayla.
- [108:37]
Carly
But to be clear, bring things up a bit. I do think they are endgame and they will end up together and that there will be a path back by the end of the series.
- [108:48]
Kinsey
There has to be. Rebecca, please.
- [108:50]
Carly
Just maybe not in book four. So hold out for book five, people.
- [108:53]
Hannah
Yeah. Woo.
- [108:55]
Carly
You're right.
- [108:55]
Hannah
He might not feel like, worthy of a cure or worthy to be with her, but he could still get it.
- [109:01]
Carly
Yes.
- [109:01]
Hannah
Like maybe he wants it, but he just feels bad for taking it.
- [109:05]
Kinsey
That's a theme with him. Like, that's a common. Yeah, I think that.
- [109:08]
Hannah
That you deserve love.
- [109:09]
Kinsey
Fits his character arc too much.
- [109:10]
Carly
Yeah.
- [109:11]
Hannah
Time to head on over to our healer's quadrant to take a temperature check on our characters, our favorite moments and standout quotes. Who was hot for you this week, Hannah?
- [109:21]
Kinsey
Zayden had his moments. Zaden had his moments, which is one of my favorite. We'll talk about that shortly. But actually, it's Garruk. I know on my reread, I say this a lot, guys. It's becoming my thing. Garrett could get it. I really loved how defensive he was and helping her out the side. Garruk. That's my. How about you, Kenzie?
- [109:48]
Hannah
I also said Garruk because he was very supportive. But my second runner up is Taryn because that boy came with the sass and he survived being knocked out.
- [109:59]
Kinsey
I loved him. This set of chapters.
- [110:01]
Carly
Agreed, Carly. I have two as well. I have Imogen. You know, she goes with Violet to interrogate Jack. There's something about Imogen where she's so silently supportive. She's just very quiet. Like, she's a very quiet presence. And I really appreciate her so much in that sense.
- [110:17]
Kinsey
Quiet but assertive.
- [110:18]
Carly
Yes. Yes. And then I just want to give a small shout out to Lieutenant Colonel De Grency for the fact that he also hates General Atos and he helped fight the Venin across the border even after the wards went up.
- [110:31]
Kinsey
So, yeah, Dagurinci could get it too.
- [110:35]
Hannah
I think that leads into who is not hot for us.
- [110:38]
Kinsey
We all have the same General Eidos. Yeah. Moving on from that One. I don't think that one needs explanation. Favorite moments. Of course. This is literally in line with my hots. Garak. His distance builder reveal felt so validated. But nothing will ever beat Zaden in his shadows when he uses them to do fucking anything. It's like floating away out of body experience.
- [111:09]
Hannah
Anyways, Kinsey, I actually also chose Zaden using his shadows to get Violet off his back, but I have to have two, so I also really enjoyed Theophany just casually being like, so did you bond and Darna first? And then we got the reveal that she's an Irid. So I like that, too.
- [111:28]
Kinsey
Yes. I like. Also, we didn't talk about this, but Irid, I immediately said iridescent. And so when Riddick says it later, I was like, all right, I got it right. Even though they make fun of him. But, yeah, that reveal was nice.
- [111:38]
Carly
Is anyone surprised that I immediately did research on everything Irid could be?
- [111:43]
Kinsey
Not immediately, no. And I can't wait to hear it all.
- [111:47]
Carly
Yeah, I do think it's iridescent. But anyways, my favorite was these second signet confirmations. Just in general, all of everything about the second signet's being confirmed. I just ate it up.
- [111:59]
Hannah
You're like, I totally.
- [112:00]
Kinsey
Did you guys notice a trend? We literally put our theories being confirmed on social media.
- [112:07]
Carly
So predictable.
- [112:08]
Kinsey
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay. But this is my favorite part, because we have started a thing where every week, Carly and Kinsey try and make a bet of sorts, of which quote is going to be my favorite of the week. Because I am just that predict, unpredict, unpredictable. I'm just that unpredictable. Anyways, currently, It's a tie. 1v1. I have three this week. One is an honorable mention, so your chances are higher. But I'm convinced it's gonna stay a tie because I have been loud and clear about this one being my favorite quote. I'll use you to protect Tiran dor, but not Tiran Dor to protect you.
- [112:45]
Carly
I did have that one.
- [112:46]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [112:47]
Carly
And if anyone doesn't believe me, you can look at my word document. It's in there.
- [112:51]
Kinsey
We have checks and balances for this bet. Kinsey, was that yours?
- [112:55]
Carly
Yeah.
- [112:55]
Hannah
I mean, you've only said that quote a thousand times.
- [112:59]
Carly
I know.
- [113:00]
Kinsey
Like, it's so fucking good. Okay, the next one, it was hotter than rage and sharper than fear and cut deeper than helplessness, all because I couldn't get to you. Oh, that's so romantic. And hot. Okay, but switching it up just slightly. Honorable mention goes to Taryn with yes, I too have eyes. I love him.
- [113:29]
Hannah
We have had so much in common with these chapters because I chose three quotes from Taryn and the yes, I too have eyes was also one of them. My other two quotes from Teryn were, if you remove that belt, I will unseat you over the river and let your meager gods sort you out. Because sass and also do not dehydrate on my account. It takes more than weather to fell me. Wish I could say the same for you.
- [113:54]
Kinsey
I highlighted this one on my first read. It almost made my cut. It's incredible. Yeah, it's so good.
- [114:01]
Carly
Yeah. You overlapped with Hannah and I overlapped with you this week. Tensing. Oh, it's also the I have the if you remove the belt, I will unseat you over the river and let your. Your God story about. It's so good.
- [114:11]
Hannah
Taryn was just so funny. Like, and I'm like sobbing like, oh my God, he's dead. And then he's just like hitting back.
- [114:17]
Kinsey
With the iconic line, oh, so good.
- [114:21]
Hannah
So good.
- [114:22]
Carly
Are we ready to jump into our epigraph analysis?
- [114:24]
Kinsey
Yes, please.
- [114:25]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [114:26]
Carly
Now let's stop by the scribe quadrant for our epigraph analysis of the most thought provoking epigraphs.
- [114:31]
Hannah
The chapter nine epigraph reads, quote, calling cadets into active service in times of war may only be authorized by the commanding general of Pascaya. Article 8, Section 1, the Dragonriders Codex.
- [114:43]
Kinsey
Yep. So this is the article that General Eitos invoked to send the squad to Samara, which is an active outpost on the front lines.
- [114:51]
Hannah
Boo.
- [114:53]
Carly
The chapter 10 epigraph reads, Weather is the one great equalizer in battle, equally detrimental or favorable to both sides given the conditions. Without our wielders swaying that element to our advantage, we are at its mercy. From a Modern Guide to Aerial Combat by Major Constance Cara.
- [115:11]
Hannah
This epigraph foreshadowed Theophany coming into battle. Weather was also a major factor in the battle at the end of the book, and Re was concerned about fighting in the rain while the civilians were climbing the cliffs, when the dragons were also grounded due to strong winds, and so on. Since Navarre lost their strongest weather wielder, they are all left to theophany's mercy now.
- [115:34]
Kinsey
The chapter 11 epigraph reads, quote, in the hope and excitement this new development of the bonds between dragons, griffins and their humans brings, I wonder who has stopped to contemplate the nature of magic's balance. Do we not risk the equal rise of the very powers we seek to wield? Recorded correspondence of Nirali, Ilan, Commanding General, Cliffsbane Fortress Talira, Mikhail, Deputy Commanding General.
- [116:06]
Carly
Bazgaeth War Camp okay, you guys, you know, I love anything that gives us more insight into the history. So for me, this epigraph, it's everything we get confirmation that the bonds between dragons and griffins was a new development while Lira was alive and that bonding dragons and griffins both happened close together, which what the fables alluded to, but we didn't actually know. We didn't have anything. From the history, we get this ominous line about risking the equal rise of the powers they seek to wield, which calls into question, did the Venin already exist at this point? Or was becoming venom the only way to counteract the amount of power dragons and griffin riders now possessed? Which calls to what Jack says to Violet. Power should be accessible to everyone strong enough to wield it, not just who they see fit. You conveniently see me as the villain, but you're bonded to two, which he is referring to Violet's two dragons in.
- [117:10]
Kinsey
The or seems to be. There's lots of theories about that one. We'll tease out another time that Violet's.
- [117:15]
Carly
Bonded to something else.
- [117:16]
Kinsey
There's theories that that's referring to Zeta and Naolan.
- [117:20]
Carly
Oh, interesting. Well, I think he's talking about the dragons here. Personally, I know I've waxed and waned about the dragons and them starting this whole problem, but I think this might be pointing to that if they did not start this problem, they made it infinitely worse by creating signets. And it is worth noting that this is both the first correspondence from Narali Elan as well as the the first time we see it listed as recorded correspondence instead of recovered correspondence.
- [117:52]
Kinsey
Ooh, good catch.
- [117:54]
Carly
Which I loved. Yes, I went and searched through all three books, so did double check that one. It is the second time we see Lyre mentioned in an epigraph. The first time is in Iron Flame, and it is a journal entry where she is recorded as Lira of Moiraine. Notably, we get her last name now, Mikael, which means who is like God. Which is interesting, since the opposite name means God's appearance.
- [118:19]
Kinsey
Oh. Oh, shit. I'm just supposed to move on to the next epigraph from that.
- [118:27]
Carly
I just think it's interesting. I don't know that we have too much more to go off of on facts. We could theorize about this probably in another episode. And Will and I do have a little bit on lira down in the theory section.
- [118:40]
Kinsey
The chapter 12 epigraph. Reads, you might be angry when you realize I didn't wake you to say goodbye, but it's only because I no longer fully trust my ability to walk away. Recovered Correspondence of His Grace Lieutenant Zaden Ryerson, 16th Duke of Tirandor, to Cadet Violet Sorengale A lot of people theorize.
- [119:04]
Hannah
That this Chapter 12 epigraph letter was written as part of his goodbye to Violet at the end of the book. However, we need to remember that Zaden literally left Violet in this chapter for an assignment. It's also important to look at the rank of the character mentioned in epigraphs for time markers, and in this epigraph, Zaden is referred to as the Duke of Tirandor, but Violet is still listed as a cadet, not the Duchess. We know for a fact that Jesenia, AKA Rebecca, is carefully documenting epigraphs with the character's correct title to date when the document was made. So at this part in the timeline, we think the letter was literally written by Zaden and received by Violet within these chapters. Also, there is a little bit of foreshadowing here. I think it's heartbreaking to consider that perhaps part of the reason why Violet erased her memories at the end of Onyx Storm was because of how painful the goodbye was between her and Zaden. What if he literally couldn't physically walk away and they were disrupted by Garrett, who then forcefully took Zaden with him?
- [120:09]
Carly
Ugh. Okay, break my heart.
- [120:12]
Kinsey
I don't want to think about it, but I think that probably happened regardless of if it was why she had him erased. And that's. I don't want to think. I don't want to think about that. It's like a year and a half at least. Of like, I don't want to think about it.
- [120:26]
Carly
No.
- [120:28]
Kinsey
So, moving on, quickly take flight with us over to the hatching ground for our Easter Eggs and Moments of Foreshadowing section, which also includes suspicious moments that stood out during this reread and may spiral into theories, starting with chapter nine.
- [120:46]
Hannah
When they first arrive at Samarra, Violet's squad does not know where they'll be safe in the outpost, Violet realizes that, quote, even hundreds of miles away, he's still taking care of me and doesn't even know it. I think this is foreshadowing that Zaden will continue to protect Violet even while they're apart. In book four, he gave her Ryerson House and the title of Duchess, and I'm sure we'll learn more about other protections later on.
- [121:06]
Kinsey
Oh, I love ooey gooey Easter eggs. The next one is also Zaden related. It stood out to me that Violet can smell Xaden's mint in his old room in Samara, even though she says it has been months since he's been there. We also, which makes it even more suspicious, get a similar mention from Zaden in his letter from Ferven when he said, is it just me or does my pillow smell like you?
- [121:37]
Hannah
I thought this was a little interesting because even though he was in Ferven and not Samara while they were in Samarra, Violet makes it very clear that she slept on his side of the bed and Ri was in her usual spot. So part of me is like, was she somehow, like, infiltrating his dreams and like, because she was on his pillow, because she did smell the Venon's breath in iron flame during that one nightmare of Zaden. So I'm like, what if?
- [122:02]
Kinsey
Oh, that's interesting. Oh my gosh. I can't do the rabbit hole right now though. Okay, short circuiting.
- [122:08]
Hannah
Moving on to chapter 10. Taryn once again warns Violet to not channel more than she wields, which I think is foreshadowing that Violet is going to either turn or die from burning out, just like Naolin. So I think this comes from a place of fear. He lost Naolin and does not want Violet to suffer the same fate going forward. I think this quote could be very important. To pay attention to the exact details of what happened to Naolin is, I think, purposely being left out. It's still unknown to us, so we don't know how, if, or when Violet will find herself in that similar situation.
- [122:40]
Kinsey
And I want to point out how often that said that I was theorizing about that back in Fourth Wing, our season on fourth Wing, multiple times, because he says it all the time, so I think he's spot on.
- [122:50]
Hannah
It is not just Onyx Storm, he says this all the time.
- [122:53]
Kinsey
We also get Taryn's reference to your meager gods, further demonstrating the lack of authority and reverence that dragons have have to human gods. And I especially with how big of a role the gods play, it's got to come up in some more significant way. And during their tornado incident, Violet thinks, quote, oh, Malik, I am not ready to meet you. And at this point, it's clear that Vi is communicating with the gods in some capacity and doesn't quite realize that they're paying special attention and actually listening to her. Next, we get this moment with Garak during their encounter with Theophany, where He is sick from wielding so far or fast is the assumption that we're making. That is what Bode did at the end of Onyx Storm. But we know that he couldn't use his signet to counter Venon, which seems to be why it's making Garruk sick. Right. So I'm wondering if this is a similar situation, then how was Bodhi getting sick over wielding if he wasn't able to be wielding that first signet against Venon?
- [123:58]
Hannah
I think maybe he actually did find a way to wield against Venon because, I mean, like, other people's signets do work against them and maybe the overuse of his signet made him get sick. For all we know, he could have also neared burnout by using a second signet. Because let's be for real, I do not believe Bodhi saying he does not have one. Or he could have also neared burnout from relying heavily on lesser magic to be like faster and stronger in battle. We haven't really heard of that happening to a writer before, but like, like it's another possibility. Or maybe like you've pointed out before, Hannah, Bodhi wasn't actually retching and getting sick, but maybe he was bending over to channel from the earth. Or maybe Bode was sick to his stomach because he couldn't believe he just turned and it's like anxiety over his situation. So there's a few options.
- [124:46]
Kinsey
Yeah, I think any of those could explain it. Except I don't feel like Rebecca would give us that. That limitation to his signet and then turn around and that change off page. But I don't know. I think it's still really suspicious.
- [124:59]
Hannah
We need to keep track of how many times we say something is suspicious.
- [125:02]
Kinsey
Every episode. At least 50 times.
- [125:04]
Carly
Yeah.
- [125:05]
Hannah
Next for chapter 11. Garak is talking with Craud and says yes, I know how much energy it takes. Now this is a one sided conversation. So we only hear Garruk's part and not Crod's, but. But I'm assuming he was referring to the distance wielding and how much energy distance wielding takes. I think this is foreshadowing him turning Venin because we know he needed more energy to distance wield again. In that final battle of Onyx Storm, he did say he was near burnout. And we also know he went to and from Basgaeth twice. Then he took Imogen and Quinn back to their other location for safety. So that's at least five trips, maybe more. So it's quite a bit of distance that he's doing and he just used a lot of energy, just going from.
- [125:47]
Kinsey
Basgaeth to Samara, which would be in line with exactly what Rebecca said herself, that we need to look at who needs more than what they have been given to figure out who the brother is. So I think you're spot on with that one, Garruk. Yeah. Next, there is a notable moment where Garak reveals that it has been centuries since any sitting member of the Cenarium has been a Dragon Rider. Which is similar to what Violet said during the Iron Flame Archive's heist. Imogen had said that no writer has ever been king. And Violet started to say that that's not entirely true, but is cut off. And I feel like this is going to come back up in some way.
- [126:30]
Hannah
I have a fun little Easter egg, Violet thinks. I start as Zaden surges off the wall, coming at me with the force of a hurricane. That is not the last time he is compared to a storm.
- [126:42]
Kinsey
Aw, damn. And finally, for chapter 12, we have another notable moment where Violet says, quote, when Cygnisan's flyers arrive, will be near maximum capacity in the dorms. Which only makes me realize just how many dragons have stopped bonding in the last century. End quote. Violet has told us this before, that less dragons are bonding, but I didn't realize it was so extreme that all of Cygnisan's flyers could get them near maximum capacity. That is a significant drop in dragon's.
- [127:20]
Carly
Bonding in the last century.
- [127:23]
Kinsey
And next, we get this really suspicious, suspicious. Another one of those mentions moments where Emerie comments that Heaton has, quote, unnaturally good luck with cards. To which Heaton responded, zannahl is with me now. We do not know much about Heaton, but this feels like an Easter egg for future books.
- [127:46]
Hannah
It sure does. And finally, Violet gives Jack a tiny medallion of alloy from her conduit. This allowed him to channel and survive in his cell, despite the wards preventing his magic from working there. This quote clearly foreshadows Zaden being able to do the exact same thing in Deverelli. I knew that would be a possibility. Basically, they arrived on the islands and she had her conduit with her.
- [128:10]
Kinsey
I had, like, onyx thick blinders on as I was reading this book, because I had no idea. I mean, I. I was in denial he was ever going to channel. Like, I thought they'd find it. I don't know.
- [128:24]
Hannah
Honestly.
- [128:25]
Kinsey
Moving on.
- [128:26]
Hannah
It makes me happy for you that you did have those blinders on. Because for me, I had like a polar opposite experience. And the whole time I was Just like.
- [128:33]
Carly
Like.
- [128:33]
Hannah
No, God damn it.
- [128:35]
Carly
Existential dread.
- [128:36]
Kinsey
Well, it just delayed. It just delayed my. I had, like, a false light at the end of the tunnel, the whole book, and then it just never came. And I think that was hard for me. So I think, you know, there's two sides to that. Yeah.
- [128:51]
Carly
And finally, let's talk theories. Time for your signet sparring professors to help you hone your farsight and precognition signet. I want to start with the scenario. It was originally made up of the first six riders and were each from the province that each seat of the Scenarium is now responsible for. We know that Liryre was from Moraine, and she would have represented the Moraine province. These territories may be associated with the original territories and hatching grounds of each breed of dragon. Additionally, the gems that magnify lesser magics were originally associated with each territory. And the colors are likely tied to the dragon breed color from that territory. We know we have Ruby, emerald, Citrine, and Onyx, which are each a color of the dragons.
- [129:40]
Kinsey
So Citrine's yellow.
- [129:41]
Carly
It's like a yellowy orange.
- [129:43]
Kinsey
Ah. Oh, my gosh, I can't wait. We're doing a full gemstone deep dive bonus episode here. Soon I will go down a rabbit hole with the gems. Okay. Okay. So I've said this in previous seasons, but we get another mention of it, so I'm saying it it this season. I think that Taran and Sigail will be able to communicate over longer distances in book four or five, hopefully both. But I. I just need it to happen in one through their bond, just like Grime and Maze. Which is part of why I'm hopeful that no bonds were broken at the end of Onyx Storm.
- [130:19]
Hannah
I agree. And if any bonds were broken, I'd rather it be Sigail and Zaden then.
- [130:25]
Kinsey
Same, actually.
- [130:26]
Hannah
Sigail and Taryn.
- [130:27]
Kinsey
Yep.
- [130:27]
Hannah
All right. In chapter 12, Violet reassures Zaden that he would never kill civilians. She's 100% certain because she's Delulu about Xaden turning. But later, when Riddick finds out about Xaden and forces Violet to draw the line, Violet again says Zaden wouldn't kill civilians, but if that happened, then she'd know he isn't himself. This keeps popping up way too much for me to not believe that he will end up up hurting or killing civilians within the next two books. So when I read Onyx Storm for the first time, I literally made a Kindle note for this exact quote that said, well, now he will. Way to go Violet. So thanks.
- [131:02]
Kinsey
Yeah. No, he intentionally does not respond to it when he mentions it in the set of chapters. And that was him telling her and us, Rebecca telling us that he would have in that moment had he been there and that he will. And I think it's really interesting for our conversation about Zaden's relationship between control and losing himself and how he lost control and Garak said he was not himself and then her literally bringing it back up and saying that she'd know he isn't himself when that's at the end of the book. This is 9, 10, this is 12 chapters in out of 66. And he's already at this point that says he's already lost himself. I have been waiting this whole episode to talk about this theory. I think that Theophany revealed more about Xaden, Berwin and Violet than we initially realized. Now this theory is based on two other theories also being true. So I'm going to walk you through those first to explain how I got from point A to C. So we know that Vennon and Rider signets are the counter, the balance to each other. Lilith was the storm building rider to Theophany's Stormwind Venom. So there is likely a dream walking Venon. And the obvious conclusion to that is Berwin, who has been dreamwalking into Zaden's dreams, telling him things, touching him and even commenting on Violet being there and calling her a dreamwalker. He has to be the counter to her dreamwalker. And that is theory number one. We also have a mention from Rebecca that said that Violet is only at 10% capacity of her dreamwalking sickness, leading me to believe that she is actually a mindwalker of sorts. Keeping on with that same verbiage from Rebecca and that Violet will not be limited to dreams. That is theory number two. If both of these theories are correct, this could mean that Berwin is also a mindwalker and a really powerful one because he has had longer, much longer for his power to evolve, similar to Theophany. Which brings me to my core of theory three. Zaden tells us that he as the Venon recruit of Berwin is bound to him and has to listen to everything that Berwin compels him to do. I think that Berwyn is a mindwalker. The then encounter to Violet and that is how Berwyn is able to compel Zaden to do what he wishes. Which means I do not think that all Venon sages have this power over their recruits. I think it's unique to him. Which could explain why Theophany tells Violet in chapter 11 that she'd be. Violet would be, quote, chained to him, Berwin, powerless to resist his orders, end quote. But. But Theophany offered Violet control, implying that she would not do this. And it could also explain how much Violet was able to compel people. Because we have so many examples of that, that we thought that was going to be her signet. So often in Iron Flame.
- [134:24]
Hannah
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. Like, because I have had, like, it can't just be dream walking. It has to be, like, mind walking. Like, I don't know. But the compulsion comes back. I will not let the compulsion go. I will not let it go either. I will not let it go.
- [134:41]
Carly
It was so prevalent in Iron Flame that it's hard for me to believe that it's not tied to something. So I'm like, it's either her signet or it has something to do with the gods. And I have the only two ways I have of explaining it at this point.
- [134:54]
Kinsey
Yeah, well, I think it's so. It would be so interesting if it really is only Berwyn that could do this, because I think it would set limitations that would make it easier for Rebecca to work in if she has other sages that come about or other mavens. Or say Violet does turn and now she doesn't have Theophany. Right. It's much more interesting that somehow Berwyn has this special ability. Like, I'm not discounting the fact that they have a bond that is an abomination, as Zaden pretty much puts it. I just don't think that that bond is how he's actually compelling his sons or Zaden's brother and him to come there. And we know that he's summoned because his shadows are going without Xaden's control and he has to physically go there. And I just really think that is explained by not their Venon bond, but by Berwyn's power.
- [135:43]
Hannah
It makes a lot of sense because you also have to consider Berwyn is a sage. Theophany is a maven. She has, in theory, more power than Berwyn does. But as far as we know, she is not doing that to her initiates. So I think it has to deal with his signet for sure.
- [135:59]
Carly
How do we know Berwyn is only a sage? How do we know for sure?
- [136:04]
Hannah
Because Theophany refers to him as a sage, like, multiple times throughout the book.
- [136:08]
Kinsey
See, this was a point of contention with. Maybe that's a little bit serious.
- [136:13]
Hannah
Much contention.
- [136:14]
Carly
Much contention.
- [136:15]
Kinsey
Kinsey and I, we've had conversations about this. Because I kept calling him a maven because he is the same Venon at the end of Iron Flame that specifically says Sage. I'm a general. And by the epigraph where we get their Venon ranks, the generals are mavens. So I was for a while calling him Maven.
- [136:33]
Hannah
And then I went through the book and I found it.
- [136:36]
Kinsey
Yeah. So he seems to only be a sage, which is contradictory to what he himself has said. He seemed offended by the mention of sage.
- [136:44]
Carly
Yeah. I don't know. I still think he's a maven. Personally, I think Theophany just doesn't like him.
- [136:51]
Hannah
That's true. But also, like, who's to say he's not just, like, lying to Zaden like Theophany?
- [136:56]
Carly
Even Taryn says he's a general. Taryn says that.
- [136:59]
Hannah
But I don't think that general means they can't be a sage.
- [137:03]
Kinsey
It's that epigraph that really does. It equates their generals to being Maven. And that's where I was.
- [137:07]
Carly
Sorry. We don't have to come into now. I just. I feel I want to see that.
- [137:13]
Kinsey
I want to see that quote where she calls him that and see exactly how she worded it because it is contrary.
- [137:20]
Carly
I just have a tendency to trust Tar more than I would trust the rest of them. And if he's referring to him as a general, I'm kind of like leaning towards that one. But maybe. I guess I just feel like sage is like an honorific. They can be both a maven and a sage. They can be a maven and be a sage to somebody where they've reached the level of maven, but they're still acting as a teacher. I guess that's the way I've been just.
- [137:48]
Kinsey
I see what you mean.
- [137:49]
Carly
Interpreting.
- [137:49]
Kinsey
And I've been thinking of it strictly as ring.
- [137:51]
Carly
Yeah. It is interesting, though.
- [137:54]
Hannah
Either way, they're not the tippy top, either of them, because there is someone above them.
- [137:58]
Carly
I have a little mini tiny theory off of Hannah's theory.
- [138:03]
Hannah
Yay.
- [138:04]
Carly
I noticed that Theophany calls Garak a Walker. And then Zaden seems to know the term Dreamwalker. I kind of think that the Venin tend to use the term walker instead of wielder. And that is why we are seeing this sudden change in the terminology. It'll be interesting to see if we call them more other things Walker.
- [138:26]
Kinsey
Yeah, because we know that they call Violet lightning wielder multiple different venom.
- [138:30]
Carly
Yeah.
- [138:30]
Kinsey
And I guess it wouldn't make sense to call her a Lightning Walker. Distance Wielder. Makes sense to call him just Walker because he's physically walking into another place.
- [138:40]
Carly
But I do find it interesting that we've seen that she uses this term twice now for two different things. And I'm like, why does Zaden know what to call Violet? And I think it's because he learned it from the Vennon.
- [138:52]
Kinsey
Boo.
- [138:54]
Carly
So I think we're right. I think we have a dreamwalker amongst the Venn. It is likely Berwyn, but I think that's where he learned that term. I think that's why he knows what it is at all. Because the fact that Violet has never even heard of it is very suspicious to me.
- [139:06]
Hannah
Suspicious, yes.
- [139:08]
Kinsey
That's another piece of evidence that I use to present that she is. Not that. I really think that oftentimes when we're told of people's sickness, it's just because of their misunderstanding of what their current ability is, that it will evolve, which we've seen multiple times. And I. That's an example for sure.
- [139:25]
Hannah
Plus, she's only at 10%, so.
- [139:27]
Kinsey
Exactly. Exactly. All right. I have a theory about Jack and his signet. His unknown fucking signet that we. I can't believe we're three books in. We still don't know what this man's signet is. Okay, So I think that Jack's signet has something to do with pain or memories. So, like, through touching objects and getting memories or emotions from them? Something of a sort. Because of what he said in the interrogation chamber downstairs. Quote, did you scream for Ryerson to save you when they locked you down here and broke your bones? Did you cry for Ryerson when they strapped you to the chair and watched your blood fill the crowd cracks between the stones on its way to the train? I only ask because I swear I can feel it when I lie on the floor. All your pain singing to me like a lullaby. Now, I would like to say this could just be him being a fucking asshole, right? Like, he could just be making some assumptions here, but I don't think so.
- [140:26]
Carly
It is interesting.
- [140:27]
Kinsey
And I also want to say that I'm not using his pushing power into her from fourth wing as evidence for this at all. Because that is very strictly referred to by Rebecca as it being Venon Powers. We don't really know if Venon get a second signet. If they also have one from the dragons. I'm leaving that out of this theory as evidence.
- [140:47]
Hannah
This one definitely Makes me a lot more comfortable than Carly's theory of Jack being an intensic. This would make his signet more of a combination between varish and materio and Dain's ability. So we have, like, weakness, injury, memory through touch. And if you think about it, Jack was really obsessed with finding the weakest links within the wing and also causing pain. So it definitely tracks for, like, the need for his signet to develop. He could also just be crazy with the lullaby comment because he obviously knew that Violet was tortured there. I think everybody knew it was quite literally the purpose of this cell. Like, that's why it's there. If it's not even a signet at all. Jack was described as looking like death. So what if he just has a relationship with Malik? And when Violet was interrogated in that chamber, Liam was sent as a kindness by Malik. So maybe that same kindness is also being shown to Jack for whatever reason, and maybe that's how he senses her suffering.
- [141:40]
Kinsey
That would be a really fucked up kindness.
- [141:44]
Hannah
Yeah. It's like Violet's comfort is seeing Liam, and Jack's comfort is like, seeing her pain.
- [141:52]
Carly
That is dark.
- [141:54]
Hannah
On that note. Okay, I should see a therapist.
- [142:01]
Carly
Just kidding.
- [142:05]
Kinsey
So when talking with Garak, Violet starts to say, quote, you know, the last time someone wielded distance, but he cut her off. And I want to know when the last time was and why that is significant. Why did you cut us off, Rebecca? Violet. It's the worst edging. Violet said in Iron Flame that she only knows of two distance wielders in all of history, to which Zaden says was centuries ago. Now, keep in mind we have unreliable narrators, but if we're taking her at her word that there's only two, this sounds awfully similar to the chapter two epigraph that reads, the rarest signets, those that rise once in a generation or century, have manifested concurrently with an equal twice in our records, both critical times in our history. But only once of the six most powerful walked the continent simultaneously, implying that that was one of those most critical times. While clearly this is not an example of a signet that manifests once every century, it is said to be more rare than that. This makes me think that the last distance wielder was alive during the second most critical time in history, quite possibly both being alive at the other time as well, which we assume was the Great War, when the first six would have bonded.
- [143:29]
Carly
I feel like I'm in a spiral about what the distance wielder was paired up with, because it said that With a counter only twice. So I'm like, what was the other signet that they needed with the distance wielder at that time?
- [143:43]
Kinsey
I've always kind of assumed when it was called summoning that Ries would be the counter.
- [143:49]
Hannah
Oh.
- [143:50]
Kinsey
Because either you're taking yourself to a place or you're pulling an object to you, the center and destination is something else. As a distance wielder, where you are the center and destination of a given object retriever is what it's.
- [144:06]
Carly
I see the counter. Like, if you're thinking about, like, a direct counter to that signet is like, if you think of him moving through space, the opposite of space is time. So it would be like precognition, like scenes, or it's Aaric or some sort of time actual signet, like what Andarna was using. So I kind of see it as some sort of time manipulation. Whether it's seeing through time or slowing down time or something along those lines. We haven't gotten any confirmation that there is a true time manipulation signal.
- [144:37]
Kinsey
Well, and quite honestly, the issue is that we've been told of six rare countering signets. So think three pairs. But we've been told of way more than six super fucking rare signets and powerful signets. And that's where I'm like, I thought at first when we read this, it was going to be like a little bit easier to put together who it was. And we just have an overflow.
- [145:04]
Hannah
Don't we have seven for, like, the seven breeds?
- [145:08]
Kinsey
Well, and that's what I've also kind of pointed out that maybe it is a seventh before. But it's so suspicious that it's more than seven at this point. Right.
- [145:17]
Hannah
So we have Violet, Zaden, Dain, Imogen, Garruk, Rhea, Auric. Okay, that's seven, right? Am I doing my math right? I'm holding up my fingers. Maybe Violet and Zaden. Then there's Dain and Imogen, Garak and Arryk and Rhy. That is seven.
- [145:38]
Carly
That is seven. That is interesting.
- [145:40]
Hannah
Imogen can counter Dain or Brynn.
- [145:42]
Kinsey
But we're also told that, well, I guess that Brennan's isn't necessarily his power is rare, but his signet's not rare. Meera's isn't said to be rare, she's just more powerful.
- [145:55]
Carly
But Imogen's rare signet isn't the counter one, though. It's like the Earth stone wielder thing.
- [146:01]
Hannah
But she counters danger.
- [146:02]
Carly
Okay, pause.
- [146:03]
Kinsey
Though we're also talking about, are we also assuming that those first six had two signets of some way. Because how are. Lightning is a rare one. But also dream, Mind walking. Whatever the fuck is going on with her. Second shadow wielding. And then intensic. Does that not take up four slots alone?
- [146:20]
Hannah
That's true.
- [146:22]
Carly
I wondered about it because I'm just like. There's just too many rare, powerful signets. And I don't know what the original first six were the only. There's a few I'm confident on, but I'm not. I don't know. There's so many at this point that it's hard for me to be like, not these.
- [146:35]
Hannah
I'm on to all of them.
- [146:36]
Kinsey
Maybe. You know how some we've said that there's gotta be umbrella types and sometimes you can do like only one thing under that type. Maybe Dane and Imogen's is actually not the purest form. Maybe there's an umbrella that was like the purest type that could do both.
- [146:53]
Carly
Intense.
- [146:53]
Kinsey
And they can only do half of it. And so maybe they don't technically count. Yeah. Like, maybe it's just Zaden's signet. And then Dane and Imogen are not actually in there. But it's suspicious that they're counters.
- [147:04]
Hannah
But Imogen could also be the counter because she's like Earth and Garak, like travels.
- [147:10]
Kinsey
And that's another example of one that's just like, never supposedly happened.
- [147:13]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [147:14]
Carly
Yeah.
- [147:14]
Kinsey
Which I guess technically would mean it wasn't the one that was the first six.
- [147:18]
Carly
It doesn't make sense to me though, if it's never happened, why he knew what to call it. That's confusing to me. So I don't know.
- [147:24]
Hannah
Suspicious.
- [147:25]
Carly
I'm gonna need to graph this out.
- [147:28]
Kinsey
We're gonna have to. I think we have a list started from one of our previous episodes. So we'll just like fill it in.
- [147:33]
Carly
Play around with it, make a map. Some red string.
- [147:38]
Hannah
I should have that as my background here.
- [147:41]
Kinsey
Speaking of intrinsics, though.
- [147:43]
Carly
Yeah. I have a theory that one of the reasons they originally killed the Intinzics is that because they were trying to prevent the Venin from creating these counterbalancing signets and creating an intrinsic Venin. When they started realizing that the Venin were creating signets just like they were, so they started killing the intensics to keep a counter venon from appearing. And maybe they were trying to stop this ultra powerful intensic. Like a dreamwalker.
- [148:15]
Kinsey
I love that theory.
- [148:17]
Hannah
That makes sense.
- [148:18]
Kinsey
That's brilliant, Bass.
- [148:19]
Hannah
Gaieth is about to have a shit ton of new intzix.
- [148:23]
Kinsey
Well, and I think that we had some listeners send in some questions last week about our discussion from prologue through four, where we discussed the possibility of there being a counter to Violet's dreamwalking. And they didn't seem to believe that there would have to be one, that Violet might be unique. That doesn't seem to be like another shadow wielder out there, which I Actually, Carly, you've pointed this out. The King was said to have been killed by a shadow wielder at one point, which we could probably put together, could possibly be a Vennon. But I would like to throw out that we only know a handful of Venn. We don't know what other signets are out there that Venon have that could start showing up as new signets and riders. Or like there could have been a lightning wielding Venon. I'm not saying that's the case. I do think there is an argument for Violet being like the only lightning wielder because it's. It's technically manifested as an. A way for nature to balance out the spread of Venin, a unique weapon against that. But I don't think that any other signets would be safe from that. I think it is safer to assume that there is a counter venom out there or that there will be soon for any of our riders signets. And we just maybe haven't met them yet. They could be like anywhere that just hasn't come in contact with Violet yet. Now that doesn't mean they'd have to be as powerful. Lynx is not nearly going to be as powerful as Zayn ever was.
- [149:49]
Carly
Well, that's where I'm like, this balancing thing kind of starts to get kind of confusing when you think about like, well, that's not really balanced to that because he's not nearly as powerful.
- [150:01]
Kinsey
You cannot go one for one in this balancing.
- [150:04]
Hannah
Cause like, does Sloan balance Jack because he pushes power into people.
- [150:08]
Kinsey
But like, we assume that's a signet.
- [150:10]
Hannah
But we don't know it's a Venin thing. It's not really a signet.
- [150:13]
Carly
Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to say. I want to, but you know what?
- [150:18]
Kinsey
What a good discussion.
- [150:19]
Carly
I want to see Rebecca's notes on this.
- [150:20]
Kinsey
That was really intriguing.
- [150:22]
Hannah
Yeah. Can we see your map of how you world build?
- [150:25]
Kinsey
She says she has like a binder of all of her Easter eggs and things that she keeps in order and stuff that her husband has helped make her. Ma'am, I'm not rich, but I would give a kidney. Like I would give a I would die to have that information if she.
- [150:40]
Hannah
Could just like release it.
- [150:42]
Kinsey
Seriously as just we can buy copies. Please, I would beg you.
- [150:47]
Hannah
It would be so fun to see all of her thoughts and Easter eggs.
- [150:51]
Kinsey
It's not to check you or anything like that. It's strictly just out of pure curiosity of just the creative process. If you want to do a documentary, I'm not.
- [151:00]
Carly
I'm not against that and we'd be okay with it being 20 hours long. That's cool too.
- [151:05]
Hannah
If it's not obvious enough by us doing a podcast, we would be highly interested in seeing this information.
- [151:11]
Kinsey
Please, please.
- [151:14]
Hannah
All right, and that wraps up our Deep Dive episode of Onyx Storm chapters 9 through 12. Thank you so much for listening. Before we go, we want to give a special shout out to our newest Feathertail Patreon member, Robin R. Thank you for supporting the podcast and helping us to continue creating high quality content. If you'd like to hear your name in a future episode, you can join our Feathertails Tier 3 and we'll make sure to shout you out in our.
- [151:37]
Kinsey
Next recorded episode as a Feather Tale. You'll also get exclusive ad free full video episodes with the option of audio only, early access to our regular season episodes and PDF resources including Carly's weekly Onyx Storm annotations and more. If you'd like to join but would prefer to keep your name private, just let us know. You can check out our Patreon linked down in the show notes below to see all of the perks across our three tiers. We also do have a base tier for general support donations as well. And if Patreon isn't for you, there are still plenty of ways to support us. Leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify wherever you're listening, subscribing wherever you're listening, recommending us to your fellow empyrean readers and simply tuning in to each episode helps us so much.
- [152:26]
Carly
Thank you again for listening. Don't forget to join us for our next episode where we deep dive chapters 13 through 16. If you haven't already, check out our first season chapter by chapter's deep dive on fourth wings through the Lens of Iron Flash. There are over 30 hours of binge worthy content to explore where we pick up all of the things that Iron Flame changed about Fourth Wing, including all of the times Aiden used his intrinsic abilities.
- [152:46]
Hannah
As always, we encourage you to email us all of your thoughts, theories and suggestions. Feel free to DM us on Instagram or join us over on our free Discord group chat. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. It would mean the world to us.
- [152:58]
Kinsey
Until next time. Dearest fantasy readers, prepare yourselves for lessons from Professor Zaddy as we continue our journey through the Empyrean series. Yay.
- [153:12]
Hannah
I can't wait.
- [153:13]
Kinsey
I cannot fucking wait. I'm gonna walk you through those. First to explain how I got from point A to D, C, A. Wow. I can't do geometry. I can't. I don't know the Alphabet.