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Dear Fantasy Reader
Penn Cole - On Writing The Kindred's Curse Saga | A Dear Fantasy Author Interview
01:11:05
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Dearest Fantasy Readers, welcome to the Dear Fantasy Author Interview series where we get to talk with the brilliant minds behind our favorite Romantasy novels. I'm your host Hannah Michelle and this episode's guest co host is longtime Dear Fantasy Reader team member and soon to be debut romantic fantasy author Mary Cross.
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C
Hi everyone. I'm so excited to be here especially for this interview.
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B
Especially for this interview. Today we are chatting with one of our all time favorite authors, Pen Cole of the romantic fantasy series the Kendred's Curse Saga, where we will discuss her writing process and upcoming highly anticipated release of Burn of the Everflame.
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C
This interview has been broken up into two parts because we had so many questions for her that it ran longer.
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B
Much longer anticipated.
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C
So the first portion of this episode, Part one is spoiler free, but we dive into spoilers in the second half and you can find the timestamps for each section down in the show notes as well as a link to Part two once it releases. Due to the nature of this book, this podcast is rated R for content and language.
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B
Please join us in welcoming Pen Cole to Dear Fantasy Reader. Pen, thank you so much for being here.
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A
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
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B
We cannot overstate how honored we are that you have taken the time to talk with us. You are a huge inspiration to both Mary and myself and we are just internally screaming right now and just trying to hold it in.
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A
The honor is all mine and I'm really excited. I've been kind of on a no interview break for a little while while I really focused on finishing up Burn. And so this is kind of for me, one of the very first ones I'm doing leading into Burns release. So I'm like I'm so excited to finally be out and talking to people and like talking to readers and it's a really fun time for me as well.
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B
Well as our most anticipated read and you are one of our most favorite authors. To hear you say that is actually insane. So thank you.
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C
It's incredibly overwhelming, but in the best way.
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B
Yes, in the best way.
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C
For listeners who are just meeting you, could you introduce yourself and the Kindred
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A
Curse Saga I'm Pen Cole. I am the author of the Kindred's Curse Saga which begins with book one, Spark of the Everflame. It is a four book romantasy series. I think it skews more romantic fantasy, but very heavy on both fantasy and the romance. It follows a mortal healer named Diambellator who lives in this poor village that is very oppressed by this group of demigods known as the Descended. She kind of finds herself in the middle of a civil war between the mortal and the Descended and she uses her position as palace healer to, well, let's not give away too much, but she very much ends up in between these two groups of people, forcing her to sort of challenge her preconceived notions about both sides and just fight for the liberation of her people, while also understanding that maybe things aren't as black and white as they seem. And there's a very, very, very, very, very slow burn romance at the heart of it. If you like a slow burn, this is the series for you. I'm telling you, no one does slow
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B
burn quite like you do.
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A
You know, if you can believe it, it was supposed to be slower and I know your face is right now and my beta readers were like, you have to give us something. You have to give us a little bit. So I sped it up the tiniest bit.
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C
But the I don't believe you.
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B
I do not believe you. I also feel like you said that so eloquently for I mean you're wrapping up book four here soon, which this is a spoiler section, but we will be getting into that in the spoiler section. But to be able to go back to the very beginning and not spoil things is an impressive feat.
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A
I, you know, I try and never spoil because even if somebody comes to an event like having read the books, maybe their friend that they brought didn't. And so I, you know, don't like getting something spoiled for me. So I try as much as I can to really protect that reading experience for new readers.
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B
We are huge romantasy fan girls here. What is one thing, book related or not, that you are an unashamed fan girl of? And there are no wrong answers at the moment.
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A
It's Love Island. I'm obsessed with Love island, both USA and uk and I watched the French one and I watched the Australian one booked and busy. I know. I read something that said, like, the more you use your brain during the day at work, the dumber you need your TV to be night. And like, I guess, I don't know. I like it. It just, it gives me a chance to like, relax, look at somebody else's problems. Like, let the drama be with other people instead of in my books. So it's my favorite way to just like, relax at the end of a day.
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B
I am right there with you. Ironically, I was up until like 1:30 this morning watching to catch up on
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A
the last episode of the U.S. man, things are crazy.
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C
I feel like I've really missed out. I haven't watched it this year and like, it's too big a commitment. It's too big a commitment.
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B
You have to do a little bit at a time. Otherwise it just feels impossible.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I do think the UK season is this current one is one of the best they've ever had. Like, it's, it's. I've heard so good this season.
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C
Oh, maybe I'll have to catch up on it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
They just finished Casa More and oh my gosh, the drama is at an all time high.
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C
Casa Moore is the highlight of it, like 100%.
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A
And movie night is coming on Sunday, so I'm like locked in and ready. We have a group chat of a bunch of authors that watch a lot of reality tv. And so a bunch of us are gonna get on FaceTime and watch it together. We're so right.
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B
Wait, that's so wholesome. That's really cute. So cute.
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C
Really incredible. Do you remember what first sparked the idea for this story? Sparked and what made you want to write it?
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A
Well, a few things. I always knew. I mean, I've grown up loving fantasy and loving romance, and I always knew I wanted to write something that incorporated both of those genres. But recently seeing romantasy blow up, it really made me say, okay, I think now is really the time to like pursue this dream that I've wanted for 20 plus years. And so I knew I wanted to write a romantasy. I knew I wanted to write a really slow burn romance because books are never slow enough for me. It's like, can we just have the yearning a little longer? And I knew I wanted to write something that was very, very political. I'm a very political person. I'm very engaged in social issues.
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B
And, you know, we admire that about you very much.
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A
Thank you. It's really important to me and I feel so strongly that if I'm gonna create art I want that art to have a message and to hopefully do some good in the world. But I also wanted to write something funny and something like, really entertaining, and that would give people just a good escape from the world. So I was trying to think, how can I combine all of these different things that I want to do? And I have a little. I think every author has a document in their notes app that has all their story ideas, you know, and when I decided I was ready to write a book, I kind of opened up that document and I just skimmed and said, how many of these can I cram into a single book? And one of the ideas that really stuck with me, because I think I'm a world first author, as opposed to a character first person, is this idea. And I don't want to say too much because it is a little bit of a spoiler, but an idea. The world, the way that it's structured and in particular, the way that authority is granted or passed on to others or shared among families and just kind of the structure of how the crowns work, the kindred, the descended versus the mortals, that whole structure of haves versus have nots and authority versus oppressed was really at the heart of my original idea. In particular, this thing that happens at the end of Spark. That was sort of the first scene that came into my head. And I said, well, what does a world look like where that's a thing that could happen and what are the socio, you know, economic consequences? That's where the world really began to take shape. And I begin to think about just what this world might look like. And for me, I always imagine the world and then I think, who are the most compelling people inside that world? And so, you know, for me, that really became Luther, who has been prepared his entire life to be king and who is groomed for leadership and seems the perfect candidate for leadership. And, you know, dm, who is at the bottom of the rung of power and has no power, no influence, not a lot of money, just expects to live a very boring, normal life. And the way that those two, their worlds collide and they end up, you know, kind of having to work together in a way, I think was a really interesting way to examine this world
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B
that is so fascinating. Where do I even start? The socioeconomic layers that you had in this story. I mean, first of all, stepping back just a second to say that I found your books through you and your sociopolitical commentary, if you will, on socials. I went to school. My master's is in sociology, specifically of Whiteness and political sociology. And so when I saw your posts, I was like, wow, I already felt so drawn to you. And then I read your books. And just the way that you layer those messages in. In such a. Just a light on humanity in so many different aspects is part of why I ride for these books. And you, you. It's very inspiring.
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C
Yeah.
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Thank you.
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B
And then to hear that you pictured that scene specifically.
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A
That was actually originally the first scene of the series. It was supposed to open on that happening. And then I ended up readjusting and we went back and started a bit earlier, but that was supposed to be
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chapter one, so that's actually what I think I'd heard you say in another interview that book two was actually written in a different pov, or not POV
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tense, though it was written in third person and it was the first book I wrote. I ended up rewriting it all because I changed to first person and I went back and decided we needed spark first. But the first thing I wrote was basically the first half of GLOW in third person pov.
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B
So I would have loved to read the original, but I think that after being in DM's head and how much I just relate to her and loved seeing the different and just the internal conflict that is created inside of her, like being able to grasp that. I'm so glad that your journey took you that way so that we could read it from her perspective.
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Yeah.
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C
Oh, she is such an incredible character to read.
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B
We're going to talk writing process for quite a bit here. Selfishly, both Mary and myself are in the process of writing and publishing our romantic fantasy debut novels. And I don't know how many times I've said it so far, and I will continue to say you are a huge inspiration for us. So trust that we have more specific questions about your writing process to come. But generally speaking, what advice do you have for people who are considering writing and or publishing their first book?
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A
I mean, I could talk for six hours about the advice that I have, but I think probably the two biggest is, number one, always focus on the craft. Prioritize the craft. There's so many people with very negative attitudes that will say, oh, it doesn't matter how good the book is, or the books that succeed are not the best written ones. And everybody's got an opinion on that. But there's a reason why some books, like, there's a lot of books that you read and you say, that was a good book. Five stars, I loved. And then you never think about it again. And There's a reason that some books stick not just with one person, but with hundreds of thousands of people. And that they. That becomes like a book that's just cemented in their brain. They can't stop thinking about. They want to go back and read it 10, 15 times. And I think our goal should always be to write those books that stay with readers long past the time that they have read the last page and closed the COVID You know, I'm not going to say that there's not other factors, because of course there are. There's a million factors in what becomes successful and what doesn't happen. But if you write a book like that that just absolutely captivates people and makes them want to talk to other people about it, makes them want to say, you guys have to read this book. It will be successful. It will, you know, the readers will make it successful. So I think always focus on your craft. Write the best book that you can. Edit it well. Don't rush to get a book out until you really, truly feel in your heart that it's ready. Although we never really feel like our books are ready, but, you know, within reason. And it's important to learn about the marketing and all of that stuff too, of course. But no amount of marketing will sell a bad book. So always prioritize the craft and focus on writing the best book that you can and improving with every book that you write. And then, number two, I would say imposter syndrome comes for everyone. It is a beast. And it will absolutely convince you that you are garbage, that your books are garbage, that you should quit, that nobody will care. And no matter how many books you publish, that feeling, unfortunately, will never go away. I mean, I've talked to people who have sold millions and millions and millions of books, and they still, with every book they publish, they think, okay, but this one's bad. Like this one, actually, people are going to read it and think it's the worst thing they've ever read. And so you just have to develop, like a smarter second voice in your head that says, no. I know my readers are out there. I know there are going to be people that love this book. I know I'm capable of writing a good book. And I'm going to. No matter how scared I am, I'm going to do it anyway. I almost unpublished this series because I was so convinced no one would like book two. I don't know why I loved it, but my brain had just convinced me no one would like it. It was more political and there wasn't a lot of action or fighting. It was very much like politics and court intrigue and interpersonal relationship kind of stuff. And I thought, people are gonna think this is boring and it's not as glitzy as some of the other fantasy books out there. And I came, I mean, this close to deleting Glow and Unpublishing Spark and just giving up on this whole writing thing. And thankfully, I had a friend who pulled me back and said, no, no, no, no, no, you're not gonna do that. You're gonna publish this book. And forced me to do it. Scared. And thank God I did, because that's my favorite book in the series now. And a lot of people say it's their favorite book too. And it was the book that really made things take off and made people start paying attention. So I'm so glad that I didn't listen to the negative voices in my head and that I really did it. Scared. And I think that's, you know, that's what everybody who wants to publish a book has to do at some point is say, yeah, I'm scared. I'm terrified this isn't gonna be successful and I'm gonna do it anyway.
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C
That's such a beautiful answer. And also, we will need your friend's address so we can send them flowers
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to say thank them formally, thankfully. And I'm also so proud of you because I can imagine what that feels like. And then I'm just so grateful that, like, the love that it deserved was shown to you in a way that made you feel like you could keep going. Cause I love Glow. So to hear you say that is like, if Pen Goal has imposter syndrome, like, no shot. This is.
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A
You know, a lot of authors will go when they get into a bad headspace. They'll go read the one star reviews on their favorite book and see, like, the horrible, nasty things that people say about the book that they think is like the best written book they've ever read. And you'll still see thousands of people saying, this is garbage. It shouldn't have been published. And so I think once you start to learn that, you know, one person's trash is another person's treasure, like, it hopefully makes those negative voices feel less valid and more just somebody's opinion.
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B
Well, if ever I felt motivated, because right now.
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C
So do you have any recommendations for books about writing craft that you would recommend?
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A
I'm reading one right now that I really like. I think it's probably my favorite one that I've read called Secrets of story, I think it's by Matt Bird, I think is the name of the author.
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B
I love how I like went to grab a notepad. I'm like, this is literally my interview. I can listen back and just grab it.
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A
It's really good. He's more of a movie screenwriter guy. Find that a lot of the advice is consistent with books as well. And a lot of the stuff that he says is stuff that I have learned over the course of being a published author. And so he's just validating a lot of stuff that this is what I've seen from readers and how they've responded to things. It's a lot of information. I've never highlighted a book so much in my life, but there's so many nuggets of wisdom in there and it's really all encompassing. Where it talks about like idea formation and how to pick which idea to start with and how to build your characters, how to build the world, how to, you know, structure your plot, even marketing stuff. So it's very. A very comprehensive craft book that I really like. Incredible.
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B
Thank you for that. We will be reading that immediately.
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C
We will.
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B
And that same thread. Do you have any staple or foundational romantasy or fantasy genre specific books that you recommend for debut authors in the genre or even readers like craft books? I'm setting you up here to talk about.
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A
Cause she'll start. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
I heard you say.
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A
I was gonna say that's the OG book and the foundational book. For me, it was the book I read. I mean it's 25 years old now, so I read it when I was much, much, much younger. And it was one of the first true romanticies, I think, that had the epic fantasy second world, everything you would expect from a high fantasy book, but also a really compelling romance at the heart of it and a romance that was very intertwined with the plot so that it wasn't just like a side quest. It was their relationship was very intertwined with this plot to kind of save the world. I loved it. And I remember at the time it had a woman on the COVID and it was in the middle of the fantasy section and a woman wrote it. And that was a very rare thing at the time where it was just man, men everywhere. And I remember thinking like, why aren't there more books like this? Why. Why are there just a handful of authors that are being allowed to tell these stories? Because at the time, if you didn't have a stamp of approval from one of the big publishers, you Weren't you couldn't publish. There was so much gatekeeping and fantasy of women and women's stories. And I think that the massive success of that book really laid the groundwork for Romantasy as we know it today. I mean, there were certainly other authors, too. Anne Bishop, Nalini Singh, like Mercedes Lackey. That also we have to credit for this. But for me, it was Jacqueline Carey and Kushielstart. That is just, like, stayed with me for 20 years.
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B
Oh, Mary, our next buddy read.
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A
Yes. Very good. It's very. I mean, I think when you read it, you can kind of tell it was of a different time. It feels very sort of 90s. I don't know when it was 90s or aughts. Fantasy, if you like. Very flowery prose. You know, that kind of Lord of the rings style. 10 pages about a tree, like that kind of thing. If you like it, you will love this. Her prose, to me, is so poetic, and it's so beautiful. It's very different than most fantasy today, but I still love it. It's amazing.
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C
So do you have a special writing environment or setup or any rituals that you have when you're writing?
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A
It's a constantly changing process, I think, because I'm a constantly changing person. And so one thing I've really learned, especially over the course of writing Burn. Cause I've struggled a lot with burnout and writer's block, is that what works one week might not work the next. And so you have to be flexible with yourself and try new things. For me, personally, I really need a quiet, dedicated environment. So I have an office now. I wrote the first three books on my couch in my living room that stopped working. So now I have a really great office, and I try and really make it a shrine to writing. And really, nothing comes in, nothing goes out. Everything stays here. That's really focused on writing. And I have, like, my good chair, and I have my little walking pad. I have a beautiful view outside my window, which, for me, I need. Like, I need that sunlight and the brightness, you know, I have a candle that I light when I write that. That scent is like my scent for the Kindred Skirt saga. And I guess when I write something new, I'll have to get a new scent for that. But it's.
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B
I'm so curious what the scent is.
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A
It's so. It's Cyr Trudon is the company, and then the scent is Gabriel. Yeah, it's like a. They call it gourmet fireplace, which is. Oh, my God. This just Kicks me into my books immediately.
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B
I love the scandal now.
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A
It's so good. It's got like, you know, I think a lot of candle companies have like a fireplace or a firewood kind of smell, but it's a little bit less intensely smoky and it smells more like a fireplace in like a beautiful palace or something. Because you kind of also have these other almost like incensey, spicy, you know, notes to it. Ugh. It just makes me think of my butt.
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B
I love it. Well, yeah, I mean, also in the fact that your books are fire themed. Right, Exactly. So perfect.
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A
Exactly. And it's, you know, I found this candle when I was writing Heat and you know, they're on the road and they're traveling through the different realms and they, you know, living by campfire basically most of the time. And so it really, for me evokes that feeling of like cuddling up to a hot man in front of a campfire on the road, you know, in a fantasy forest or something. So that's.
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B
Well, in my mind it's going to specific scenes. We can't do it.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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B
But we can come back to it later. Do you use mood boards and also, do you have a book bible?
- [24:58]
A
Kind of. I started off using mood boards and then I immediately forgot about them and I've not really looked at them since. Something I'm plotting session. Yeah, I think it was really good for the plotting phase. Cause I'm a very visual person and so to see like the visuals of the world and the mood I think was super, super helpful in that early stage. Not so much in the drafting stage. Although I don't know, maybe. Actually, now that I think about it, it could be cool to have like a mood board of my world as I'm writing. Maybe I'll try that with the next one. I have a bible that I have been terrible about keeping updated, which made burn a nightmare because I would have to be like, okay, hold on, let me search through half million words to find where I said this person's eye color or whatever. So that's something I'll be doing much more like intentionally with the next. Whatever I write next is keeping a really thorough, in depth world Bible with
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B
as big as this world is too. I can imagine things just get lost in the sauce.
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A
I kept thinking, I can remember it. I won't forget this. No, no. I immediately forgot everything.
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B
What is the most valuable piece of advice you've received around writing?
- [26:13]
A
I remember. I can't remember who said it, but someone told me I read In a course, I think, like some kind of video course I took, maybe that the first idea you have is usually your worst one because it's usually based on what you've already read or seen in other places before. So, like, if you. If I were to tell you, okay, come up with a, you know, a book where there are trials, you might think about Hunger Games, or you might think about, I don't know, some book or movie that you've already seen where the protagonist has to, like, win a trial or go through different competitions in order to win. And it's going to be hard for you at first to separate those ideas, the stuff you've already seen done. And so the first two, three, four ideas you throw out are probably going to be very close derivatives of stuff you've seen. And it's really when you kind of exhaust what you already know and you start saying, well, what else could I do? Like, how could I do it even different than this, that you start to generate your own ideas and start to really pull out the stuff you haven't seen done before. You know, I'm a very, very heavy plotter. And one of the things I like about that is that the plotting stage gives me a chance to throw out my first idea, my second idea, my third idea, and kind of get those out of the way so that by the time I'm actually drafting, I'm onto the fourth, fifth, sixth idea that is much more interesting and much more unique than what I first thought of.
- [27:54]
C
Ooh, that is really interesting. And I think that really shows with the books as well. Like, I absolutely felt like Kindred Cursed Saga was a really original and a really different take that I haven't read before. And I loved that.
- [28:15]
A
Thank you. It's based on a lot of the standard traditional, like, fantasy archetypes and stories. And there's much about it that's very familiar. But I tried to take those familiar aspects and do them in a new way. So, you know, at the time I was writing them, Fae was like all the rage.
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B
Right.
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A
Everybody was writing Fae books. And I love Fae books. I mean, I still love them. But I said, well, how do I create something that's sort of reminiscent of Fae, but is its own thing and allows people to not bring in the lore or the baggage or maybe the stigma. Yeah, like people who are sick of Fae, like, how do I make something that they want to read that they will still like? And so that's how the descendant came to be is. You know, we have this group that sort of has some elements of Fae that we see in a lot of fantasy books, but they're their own thing and they have their own backstory and their own magic system and rules and all of that. So it's familiar, but different is, you know, always what I'm going for.
- [29:14]
B
Yeah. Well. And I actually, like, love thinking back. So Mary is my writing critique partner, and so we do a lot of brainstorming together. And I'm like, as you're talking about how your best ideas and most refreshing are going to be the more developed, I think that that's, like, I found that to be the case naturally. But I think there's also, like, I'll be reading because, you know, we, especially with the podcast, are reading immense amounts of romantasy books. But, like, you do see a lot of the same, like, items in the recipe, but it's so cool to see how, like, how you can twist it. And I think that those are, like, the coolest ideas can come from that. So, yeah, I love that advice. Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to share for listeners who are considering reading the Kindred's Curse saga before we move on to our spoiler portion?
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A
Hmm, I don't think so. You know, if you like Romanecy, give it a try. I think it's good. I'm a little biased, but I'm a fan.
- [30:16]
B
Well, we are also super biased. I'm obsessed with this series. If you are a listener who hasn't read it before, just. I don't know if I'm setting expectations too high by saying your life will change, but mine did. I really do feel like I, for the first time, found a lot of myself in a character and moral dilemmas and what you want. What would you do if you were in this situation? And I just. We'll talk more about it as we go, but I just think it's beautiful.
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A
It's a good book for the world right now, especially with Burn coming out. As I've been rereading Burn, I'm like this. I can just see how the world has been affecting me as a person and as an author, and how much of that made it into the book. Not even intentionally, but just me needing to work out a lot of emotional stuff that I'm going through, seeing what's happening in the world. And I think if you're somebody that looks around the world and you're feeling really frustrated or feeling hopeless or feeling like you just want to fight, you know, this is a book that's really gonna, I think, meet you where you are and you know, allow you to sort of work through some of those things emotionally.
- [31:31]
B
I cannot agree more. I think also I've said on the podcast before, like, what draws me to romantasy so much is with everything that is going on in the world, I want some semblance of control. Some semblance of like, I can do something that impacts this. There is hope at the end of the tunnel and your series does that for me. Like through these characters we are seeing change happen and what it costs to fight for change and just how to humanize other people. When maybe you are contemplating where your views fall in the world and how to love and care about other people in general. I'm not even going to get emotional right now.
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A
I fucking love this series.
- [32:16]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:18]
B
Okay. With that, it is time for the spoiler filled portion of the interview. So if you haven't read all three books currently released in the Kindred's Curse saga, this is your formal spoiler warning. While some of the questions may not prompt spoilers, they are in this section just in case. We recommend saving the episode and coming back to hear the spoiler section once you've turned the final page of Book three. We'll be here waiting. If you're pausing here, you can find links in the Show Notes to grab the books in print, ebook or audio. And as always, we highly encourage you to support your favorite indie bookstores if you can. Don't worry, we fully support one or three more impulse buys. If you would like to start, this is feel.
- [33:00]
C
I love it.
- [33:00]
B
If you would like to hear more from Pen Cole, give her a follow on social media. She is authorpencol on all major social platforms. Linked down in the Show Notes as well. Keep up with Pen's latest news by joining her Discord Reader Group. I love it. I'm a long time member here and subscribing to her monthly newsletter. The links for both as well as a full list of upcoming appearances can be found on Pen's website www.pencole.com. as I'm sure you could guess down in the Show Notes and also because this is not written in, but Pen is doing a guided reread or read for your first time starting July 13th.
- [33:38]
A
Yes, it's a reread. It's not spoiler free so I don't think it's appropriate for people doing their first read.
- [33:45]
B
Thank you for clarifying.
- [33:46]
A
Yes, it's really for the people who've read all three books so that I can tell you, you know how this happens in book three. Here's where I told you it was gonna happen in book one. Oh, yeah.
- [33:56]
B
I didn't realize you were like, oh my gosh. That sounds amazing.
- [34:00]
A
So it's kind of a look at the series in a different light. Having read all three books now, let's reread so I can show you all the things that you didn't see the first time through. I'm so excited.
- [34:12]
C
I'm so excited. Oh, that's gonna be incredible.
- [34:16]
B
As if I wasn't excited enough for my rereads. Oh, my gosh. Cause I'm an Easter egg girl. I loved to go back and just try and catch and see what I didn't before. And so I cannot wait. Okay, okay. Okay.
- [34:28]
C
Yes.
- [34:28]
B
Okay. Before we jump into all Things Burn, specifically, we do still have more writing process questions for you that we wanted you to be able to answer without being restricted by potential spoilers. This series is a masterclass in slow Burn. So I have to ask, ever wonder why scam calls feel so specific?
- [34:50]
A
Why they somehow already know your name,
- [34:52]
B
your city, or even your address? It's usually because of data brokers. These companies collect your personal information from across the Internet and sell it online,
- [35:02]
A
usually without you even realizing it.
- [35:05]
B
Things like your phone number, home address, family members, and even places you've lived.
- [35:10]
A
And once your information is out there, it spreads fast. That's where Aura comes in.
- [35:15]
B
Aura automatically finds your personal information on data broker sites and submits removal requests for you. Then Aura keeps monitoring to help make sure your information stays gone. You can even see where your data was found and removed. And Aura goes beyond data removal. You also get a vpn, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and up to $5 million in identity theft insurance. Right now you can try Aura free@aura.com
- [35:46]
A
hidden that's Aura.com hidden.
- [35:49]
B
This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Reece, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices, like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone. Al Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So minutes. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. what techniques did you use to tease out the slow burn but still keep the tension momentum throughout? And please feel free to be as specific as you'd like.
- [36:30]
A
I think for me, when I'm reading somebody else's book. Once they get together, I kind of get bored with the romance arc. Like, once they're. We're happy, we're in love, we'll burn the world for each other. The only. Not the only way, but there's only a few ways that you can create a lot of tension between them. And it's either like, somebody's keeping a secret, somebody gets kidnapped, or, you know, somebody is, like, pulled away. You know, somebody's lying to the other person, and they're like, I have to break up with you to save you, you know? And you can only do that for so long before readers start to get sick of it. And I think the part where you can do the yearning and people like it is in that flirting phase. It's in the, like, the glow phase, essentially, where it's like, we glow phase. We know we like each other, but we're not letting ourselves give into it. And it's like the looks across the room and the brushing hands. That is the. I always call it the feeling of that hand flex in pride and pride.
- [37:35]
B
I was about to say the Darcy.
- [37:36]
A
If you could bottle that up, like, that's what I want my books to be made of, you know? And so it was. How much of that can I put in this book? Where they clearly are into each other, but they're only allowing themselves these brief moments of connection, and, like, let me let that last as long as we possibly can. And so originally, they weren't even supposed to kiss until, like, the end of Heat, really. And I know. And then my Vader readers for Spark were like, we need more. This is like. We can tell that we're supposed to like him, but, like, right now, it's just kind of like a sense and not there's. The romance isn't, like, really established or it wasn't at the time. And so I really agonized over putting in a kissing scene. And actually, so many people told me to take it out. In fact, almost everybody told me to take it out. Which is ironic now, because it's like the number one scene everybody quotes. And most people say it's, like, their favorite scene in the book. I love that scene so much. And it became a really fun thing to play with in book two because it was kind of like, no, you kiss me. No, you kiss me. Actually, like, the little, you know, banter that they had.
- [38:50]
B
We're talking about, like, the stone wall. Yeah.
- [38:53]
A
When she's, like, got her knife to his neck and he's like, Go ahead. Like, I'll die right now if you kiss me first. You know? And so there was always a confrontation between them, but there wasn't a confrontation that led to a kiss. And so when I made that more of a romantic confrontation, I kind of was like, I'm not sure. Like, I feel like we're moving too fast. He would say that. I know. And then, you know, in Glow, there's almost nothing. They have that kiss right at the end, at the Challenging. But, you know, other than that, it's just, like, looks and touches and that's it. There's no spice at all in that book. And I was really worried about that. I was worried that readers would, like. Cause the perception is that readers only want spice, and they're constantly. Is it spicy? Is it spicy? Is it spicy? But I actually think when you look at the books that become bestsellers, they're not that spicy, honestly. I think it's the implication, like, the tension that people really want. They know it's coming eventually, but it's like just these little bits of it. And so in he, you know, they don't actually have sex until half a million words into the series. Like, crazy amount of time.
- [40:09]
B
Which, by the way, is the fireplace scene that I was thinking about. I was like, that's the one, right?
- [40:14]
A
Exactly. That's, like, the smell of that scene, essentially. And it's funny because everybody else is like, oh, my God, it's so slow. And I'm like, they've really only known each other at this point two months, and they've only been together for a couple of weeks at this point. So it's not that fast in their. On their timeline. And they've only been officially together for. Yeah, I think only a couple of weeks at that point. To me, it's not that fast.
- [40:43]
B
I don't know why, in my head, this timeline was so much longer.
- [40:46]
A
No, I know. It's because every day can be 10 chapters.
- [40:51]
C
Yeah.
- [40:51]
A
And so it feels like so much more time is passing than it actually has in the book. So I wanted it to be realistic in the book, where it felt like they've known each other for a long enough time that this level of emotion makes sense. It's still pretty fast, to be honest. But, you know, it at least feels like it makes sense.
- [41:12]
B
I mean, I was, like, cheering.
- [41:14]
C
Yeah.
- [41:15]
B
But I wanted. I wanted that to feel so earned. And I felt like there were even times where I was like, I want them to, but I just.
- [41:21]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [41:22]
B
Like, whatever XYZ thing was happening and so.
- [41:25]
A
But.
- [41:25]
B
And then just how beautiful that scene was. You're also talking to book girlies.
- [41:30]
A
Yeah.
- [41:31]
B
You know, so you knew what you were doing with that exact scene.
- [41:35]
A
And DM's a book girly. So, like, she's. She's for the girls. Oh, my God.
- [41:40]
C
One of my friends loves Luther almost as much as you do, Hannah.
- [41:47]
B
And almost. Thank you for saying almost.
- [41:50]
C
So many voice notes from her about the slow burn. And she's like, I need them to kiss, but I don't want them to kiss. But. And like, she gave you so much joy. So much joy. So, yeah, it was perfectly done.
- [42:05]
B
And we will get into the Lutheran haul. I promise you that. I promise you that.
- [42:10]
C
I'm really interested to know how you went about building the magic system in this world and what that creative process looked like for you, because it is so clever and so intricate.
- [42:24]
A
You know, I still, to this day, I'm not sure which came first, the magic or the culture of each realm. But they were very interwoven as I was creating them. And so if you look at each realm, the magic really represents who they are as a people as well. In Lumnos, they're very focused on aesthetics, and it's all about appearance. And so, you know, light and shadow is very much who they are in terms of, like, what you see is what's important. In Monteos, for example, they control stone and ice. They're very stony, icy people. They're very reserved. They're very cold, not emotional. They keep to themselves. Same in igneous. Right. Like, they're fiery, they're hot, they're, you know, intense, violent. Now, in the past, you almost saw a different side of that warmth because they're known historically for this, like, welcoming warmth and, like, bringing people in and taking care of people who come through the desert and just, like, this history of hospitality. And then because of the war and how unfairly they were treated during the war, you saw a different side of that warmth, and it became this violent, kind of fiery, you know, destructive force. And so each of the realms is really like that, where the magic is very intricately tied to the culture and their values and their personalities and how they respond to the other realms. And so I had a lot of fun playing with that and saying, okay, what kind of magic? Like, who are these people? What kind of magic can I give them? Or, I want this kind of magic. What kind of people would have that magic? It's a chicken and egg situation. I'm not entirely sure which came first. And maybe it was different for some realms, but those, they grew in my brain in tandem, for sure.
- [44:13]
B
Did they come before Diem did?
- [44:16]
A
Probably. Certainly before DM was as fully formed as she became. I think the role of DM in terms of like this girl who sort of gets plucked out of obscurity and becomes queen, she was there from very early on because that was the spark, no pun intended, that the story built itself around. But before I truly knew who was she, I thought about, okay, who is this? Like, what is this world that she is coming up in? And how has that affected her upbringing and made her who she is?
- [44:47]
B
I have two questions that might kind of weave in, but one, how did you decide on which abilities made your realms? And then also, did you always know that she was going to get at least the majority of them? Since we can talk spoilers.
- [45:05]
A
Yeah, it was. It was. I think I have to be careful because there's still spoilers to come. And Burn, for sure. But I think certainly the plan would be just knowing her. I guess we know now by the end of Heat, right. To her father is Ophiuchai. I don't think this is a spoiler. I can't remember if it's explained in super detail in Heat, but essentially the magic of that realm that they come from is that they can absorb magic and they can use it. Right. And so the Lumnos magic, the igneous magic, all of this magic, it's not hers. She essentially is able to take it from others and use it. And the mechanics of that will be explained in more detail in Burn. But it's not necessarily that she's like a child of every realm. She's a child of omnoscience and. Or like a descendant of Omnos. Right. I don't know. She kind of lives in this weird limbo of being part of things without being true member of them. And that's DM's journey. Right. She's lived among the mortals, but she wasn't really wholly immortal. And then she was, you know, the queen of Lumnos, but she still wasn't entirely of them. They still saw her as an other. And in many different ways, she exists in that sort of limbo space in between different groups of people. That is what allows her, I think, to be able to feel compassion for both sides and to identify with both sides and see things in ways that other people don't. Because she's not. She's really in the middle and not super entrenched in any particular group. Yeah, I don't know if that entirely answers your question.
- [46:50]
B
But no, it. It totally does. And now I'm like, in my head, I don't know why. Like, I'd made it up that she was like, intrinsically the fabric of all of them. So she just had them. I didn't realize that she was, like, taking them on.
- [47:04]
A
I mean, it does and doesn't. It's. You know. We'll learn more about how the magic ominous works in book four. But it's. There's a reason, I think I'm pretty careful that I have not. I will say she is not a descendant in the way that other descended are descended. That doesn't make much sense. But she is unique in how she is a descended. And there's a reason why certain things affect her differently. Why she has experienced. Like, for example, all the other descended have their eye color from birth. Hers, she had brown eyes when she was a child, and they turned gray. And there's a reason why she had that different experience as opposed to being, you know, a being born with blue eyes as a Luminos.
- [47:51]
B
Descended is what you're referring to. Separate from blood drop content. Like, how I hate the word purity. But the purity of her blood is being like. Because we're assuming that the family tree. She's way up here. If I'm saying something you don't want to be.
- [48:06]
A
Contempt, accent. It's not. I wouldn't say that. I think it has a lot more to do with how the realm of Omnos fits into everything. Because, again, it's been wiped off the map. Right? Like, it's been destroyed. Everyone has forgotten about it. The Kindred erased that realm from existence. And that, I think, had consequences for those who come from that realm.
- [48:37]
B
Okay.
- [48:38]
A
And so that, again, has allowed her, you know, in the way that she was able to, like, destroy the shield at the arena during the challenging. Right. Like, it. This forging magic that created this barrier, she was able to destroy it. It's not just because she's really powerful.
- [48:53]
B
It's.
- [48:54]
A
She's her own thing within this magic system. And that has. You know, that's again, why the hearthstone shattered when her blood touched it. She's not supposed to exist.
- [49:06]
B
You know, the reason that I had thought that she was sort of just the fabric of all of it is because she was born in the center of all of it. So I was like, oh, it's because she was born there. She got it. She. I mean, maybe. Maybe. I don't know.
- [49:18]
A
I think there's a. One of my favorite quotes in the book that I think goes underappreciated is at one point the queen of Umbro says prophecies can have many meanings. And that's very true. There can be many different explanations for the same thing. So we'll see.
- [49:39]
B
This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Reese, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices, like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our courting coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone aligned. Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So minutes. Create your own AI agent. Today on Monday.com most of us are
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A
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B
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A
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- [50:40]
C
So I'm now thinking like my head is going a mile a minute.
- [50:44]
B
Can you see the wheels?
- [50:46]
C
Literally, I am thinking about the scene after they get out of the prison when she is absorbing all of the powers and then, yeah, so yeah, she
- [50:59]
A
mentions feeling stronger every time she's hit with magic and it's essentially cause she's.
- [51:05]
B
We really saw that on the beach. Which by the way, the art that you have of that scene makes me cry. Like, stop. It's so beautiful. I'll link that down in the show notes as well for everybody. If you want to go check that piece out. It is Luther basically encasing dm, but there's a couple of them I think that you've had done of that scene and they're all so stunning. Okay. We really could just talk forever about. I mean, the way that my mind is just going a mile a minute right this second over that. Yeah, I can't wait for my read.
- [51:41]
A
All right, all right, all right.
- [51:43]
B
I do have a spiel here, but it does end with a question. So. Themes of social injustice are at the heart of the conflict in the Kindred's Curse saga. You did such a phenomenal job weaving in the nuance of empathy, logic, compassion and reasoning. So thoroughly for both the descended and the Guardians, starting with prejudice for the descended initially coming to understand and love them. You really see the villain group shift throughout the books, and you don't ever really end up hating any of them because you can really understand why they make the decisions that they do and what fuels them. It is so captivating to be able to see both perspectives and understand both sides. And now I will get to the actual question. What was your process like, trying to capture all of that? I know you mentioned, like, putting all the pieces together to make the world, but, like, as you went throughout it, how did you move throughout in consideration of all those aspects?
- [52:36]
A
It's for sure the hardest part of writing the books. And it's been the part that has kept me up at night the most, certainly, because one thing we see a lot of that I didn't want to write is, like, colonization is good, actually, or like the colonizer romance where you have a bad guy come in and actually she falls in love with him and whatever. I didn't want to write this book where we end up romanticizing a system or a group of people that are inherently flawed and have done something wrong, you know, but at the same time, I did want to show that this system of injustice, like good people, people who have good hearts and good intentions, can end up perpetuating a really unjust and oppressive system if they're not conscious about the role that they play in it. And so, like, for me, one of the most important scenes in the entire series is in Glow, when DM takes Taryn and Alix through Mortal City and she sort of shows them her life, and this is where I was raised, and this is what happened. And she remarks that she's, like, watching them, their eyes kind of open to the life that she lived and how lucky she is to have even made it to adulthood because of how bad conditions are and how terrible her life would be if she hadn't have become Queen. And, you know, they both feel a lot of guilt for having lived so close. I mean, just like a mile away from the heart of the depression and not have done anything. And, of course they knew it was happening, but it wasn't happening to them or their family or their friends. And so they were able to just sort of say, oh, that's unfortunate, and then go back to their regular lives. And, you know, there's a really important conversation DM has with Alix and Heat where Alix is like, you know, I feel so guilty. I should have done more. And she's like, yeah, you should have. You should have done more. But your guilt does nothing to help the mortals. Like, they don't need your guilt. They need your action. So what are you gonna do about it now? And I hope that a lot of people read that and see that, like, see the value in that conversation and in saying, yeah, I understand you feel guilty, but, like, your guilt isn't what's important. It's, what are you gonna do now? You know better, so do better. And we see, like, how do I use my privilege to help? And, you know, I have all of this because I'm a core one. You know, I have all these titles and this power. How can I use it for good? And that's the message, right? It's not like, oh, the colonizers are so nice. It's, you know, a lot of these people sort of unintentionally perpetuated this injustice. Once their eyes are open to it, how do they change it? How do they play an active role in dismantling it? And that's the message that I hope people take away. At least that's the intended message, is not that, you know, the very fine people on both sides thing. It's that you can be a bad guy without realizing you're a bad guy. And once you realize, like, oh, no, I'm a baddie, how do you then get out of that? And how do you take accountability for it and use your position for good? So that's really been the story I've been trying to tell, at least with the descended. And then on the mortal side, of course, you have the opposite of that, right? You have. We see Vance, who really represents the worst of the worst with the mortals because he's not focused on helping the mortals. He's focused on vengeance. And his actions do nothing to make things better for the mortals. In fact, in many cases, his actions make things worse for them. But he wants vengeance at any cost. And that, I think, is the alternative side of a fight for liberation is people who are less focused on ending the oppression and more focused on just violence and vengeance, which, again, yeah, what
- [56:40]
B
I admire so much about you, among a lot of things, is your ability to articulate, I'm saying the word things again, things so well and in such a nuanced way. I mean, the whole time you were saying that, I was trying to think of how to formulate what I really appreciated so much about the series because I do find the whole both sides argument to be really problematic. It is not just like, there are bad Guys on both sides. There are good people on both sides. But you were able to somehow show. And I won't try and mince you just said it so eloquently. I think that that is what I mean by humanity, in that the descendants are actually seeing that and then you're seeing action and not just the guilt. And I just, again, I'm nowhere near as eloquent with it, but I just love the aspect of how you weaved it in so intentionally. Came through so much to me, and I appreciate you so much for that.
- [57:32]
C
Yeah. And I think that those messages absolutely do come through. I'm in the UK thinking about, like, what sort of we're experiencing at the moment, and it's so relevant and. Yeah, I just think it's such an incredibly well handled exploration of that. And obviously your background is in law. I would imagine that has massively influenced how you present the argument.
- [58:02]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And just a lot of my activism work in my personal life, very much has played a role. One of the things that I have learned, you know, through 20 years of activism is that the most important thing has to be about focusing on the victim. Right. And how do we make things better for the affected group? Say you're just talking about racism, right?
- [58:26]
C
Okay.
- [58:27]
A
How do you affect the people who are impacted by racism? And if all you're focusing on is, like, anger at the racist, that doesn't do any good. It's a necessary part of, like, you know, the emotional response to racism. And certainly for the affected group, it's a. It's a very. It's a very valid. And it's a part they're entitled to. But as an ally, somebody coming in and saying, how do we fix this? You don't fix it just through anger and hatred. You say, how do I make this a better situation? And there's a lot of ways to do that. Yeah, but some of that is having those hard conversations with people who say and do racist things. People that disagree with you. I know a lot of authors that say, oh, if. If you support this politician or this political group or this political ideology, I don't want you reading my books. I feel exactly the opposite. Those are the people I definitely want
- [59:18]
B
to read my books, that needs to read my books.
- [59:21]
A
And I hope you learn something from them. I hope you take something. I hope it opens your heart and makes you a more compassionate person. That's what I'm trying to do with this story.
- [59:32]
B
And it's.
- [59:32]
A
I think, because of that, it's not a story. I Could have written when I was much younger because I was more on that, like angry, out in the streets protesting. And there's such a need for that. It's totally valid and it takes all kinds. Right. But as I've matured in how I understand these and as I've learned more from much more experienced and smart, more intelligent activists, is everything has to be about what actually makes things better for the people affected. And that is, I think, what I have tried to do with dm, where she's always thinking about, like, what is the impact on this gonna be for the mortals? And she tries to redirect things to that place, which I think is what makes her a really important figure as a potential queen, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
- [60:25]
B
Do you have any advice for authors or writers who are trying to weave that in, who may not have the background in activism in law? That. Not that that's what makes you. There's a lot that encompasses for you to be able to voice all of these things, but for someone who maybe is trying to weave that into their story resources that you recommend, and it's okay if you don't know off the
- [60:50]
A
top of your head, there's so many. I think having sensitivity readers is super important. The less involved you are in activism, the more of those you need, because the more blind spots you're going to have. Having a lot of people who are much more advanced in their awareness of all of that. Reading and giving you feedback and being open to it and not being really defensive about it is really important. I think making sure that in your everyday life you are exposed to those voices and that you're following that stuff, listening. You should be absorbing so many think pieces about everything that's going on in the world, and in particular from people from those affected groups. Because the way that a white person talks about racism is incredibly different than the way somebody who has lived with it, you know, is gonna talk about it. And a lot of the times, especially if you come from a really privileged group, that might make you uncomfortable and it might, you know, raise your defensiveness. And you have to learn to get over that and to listen anyway and learn from it. I think the more that you expose yourself to those voices and the more open you let yourself become to opinions that don't naturally come to you, the more it helps you be able to write these things that comes from a place that isn't just your lived experience. You know, a lot of the stuff in the books is not stuff that necessarily comes from me, but it's stuff I've heard from other people in social justice spaces and arguing about this is what we need and this is what is unfair. And this is why I wish people would spend more time talking about. And that stuff is woven into the books because that's what the actual affected people say about their oppression. And that's the voice that we need to be representing. Not necessarily the colonization has good people in it, too. We've got enough of those books. How do we do something different? So, yeah, I think just expanding the voices in your life is really important. You know, making sure that you're just really plugged into current events and. Yeah, I don't know.
- [62:58]
B
Which can be difficult, but necessary.
- [63:02]
A
And being careful about the sources where, of course, you're learning about this stuff has no sources without a bias. So it's. How do you cultivate a really rich, diverse group of sources?
- [63:15]
B
I'm gonna have to go back through this interview and take notes, like, thorough notes of your advice. It's been so rich with it, which I appreciate.
- [63:24]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [63:25]
C
Thinking about the Guardians, I know that you've said previously that the Guardians arc wasn't the original plan. Can you share more about that and how they came to be and the role that they came to play?
- [63:40]
A
Originally, DM was really the voice of the mortals, and she was the one advocating for them. And, you know, whenever there would be an argument about how the mortals should be treated, it would be her arguing with the descendants. That's kind of how I started writing when I originally wrote the first half of Glow as, like, the beginning of the series. And then I thought, like, we've met this girl and we know she's not fully mortal. So it's a little bit hard to see her as the voice of the mortals at this point, now that we know that she's only partially one. And also you have all of these descended, and then you just have this one sort of partial mortal, and there's no other mortals in the story. And don't they deserve to have a voice in their own story? And I said, you know, we need to go back. I need some mortal characters. They need to be more involved in the story. I mean, Henry was always part of it, but, like, I didn't feel like that was enough because there's a lot of different ways that you respond to an unjust system. Some people just say they put their head down, say, I just want to survive. Like, I don't want to rock the boat. I just want to keep going. And that's very Like Maura and Henry's father. Father, Right. They don't want to rock the boat. They just want to, like, get through the day. And then you have Henry, who's angry and who wants to do something about it, and he's sick of nothing changing. And then you have people like DM's father, who's trying to do the best he can from within the system and who is working with the descendants so he can hopefully steer them away from, you know, doing things that will hurt the mortals. And so you have all of these different people trying to deal with it in different ways. And I think it was really important to see that and see the different ways that people respond, because none of those is right or wrong. And it's certainly not for us to judge how they do it. But they also have those important conversations within the group. Like, you know, the. Henry has a lot of issues with the choices DM's dad has made and vice versa. Like, a lot of people have issues with the things Henry has done. And so I think it was important to acknowledge that there are a lot of different ways to respond to it. And people within that group might have their opinions about each other and the choices that they make, but then at the end of the day, it's like, well, okay, how do we all work together to help the mortals? And I just thought that story, we needed to tell it more in depth, and it couldn't just be DM telling it on behalf of these mortals that we almost never see.
- [66:11]
B
Well, when you put it, like, yeah,
- [66:14]
C
but it's so reflective of how society is as well. The. This is my way of doing it. I don't agree with your way. So, you know, and I know it's a fantasy, but it's so realistic in so many ways.
- [66:29]
B
Well, and I think we're used to seeing a little bit more black and white, and I think that what you captured so well was gray. And, like, how it is valid to maybe react in ways. Like, I think there's the. How do you tell the people being oppressed how they get to react?
- [66:43]
A
Right.
- [66:44]
B
And I think that that is something for the Guardians that I just loved about how you wrote this of, like, how do you get to tell them that? Like, yeah, we can love the Found family and understand that maybe they just weren't looking, but then how do they get to react when people resort to horrible things after horrible things are done to them? And I think, especially with the world right now, we can absolutely use that to, like, take a new lens on situations before we speak on them or jump to conclusions about what we think is going on. I know I'm being very vague there, but I think it can apply to a lot of different situations.
- [67:24]
A
I think the full story of the Guardians has yet to be told. There's a lot more about that that's gonna come and burn. Because at the end of we have, you know, in Spark and in Glow, we really see Vance's branch of the Guardians, which has sort of gone astray, in my opinion. And like I said, Vance is not focused on how do I make things better for the mortals. He's focused on how do I kill as many descended as possible because I'm mad. And it's no longer really become about helping mortals. And so there's actually a really great conversation when Luther and DM are on the boat on the way to the island for her coronation, and Luther is talking about his experience with Arlie. It has not yet been revealed at that point that she was the leader of the Guardians, right? And Luther says, you know, DM kind of asks him, well, why did you let her blackmail you? Like, why didn't you just tell the king? He would have protected you. And he says, well, to be honest, I didn't really object to what she was doing because at the time, she was, you know, stealing shipments of food and redirecting it to mortals. She was smuggling people out of Lumnos when they were accused of crimes they didn't commit. She was intercepting shipments of, like, silks and jewelry and sinking them to make a point, you know, and it was stuff that was actually, like, either making the situation better or making things less lopsided in terms of, like, wealth and all of that. And DM thinks, like, that's what I wanted to do when I joined the Guardians. Like, that was what I was hoping for, was to do things that would help people. And I don't feel like that's one of the real moments of cognitive dissonance she had in joining the Guardians is like, okay, but how is this helping? Because right now it just looks like we're just killing and hurting people. And, you know, in that final conversation she has with Henry the last time they talk in heat, she says to him, like, my mother's branch of the Guardians is trying to do things a different way. And they're trying to help and they're trying to, like, they foresee a world where the descendant and the mortals can live together in peace. And we're trying to achieve that and inequality. And she's trying to achieve that. Like, I'm with you on our goals. I'm with you on what we want from this world. Vance is not the path to choose to go down it. Choose this path instead. And we don't get Henry's answer, We'll learn more about the choice he makes in Bern. But that is really like the story of the Guardians, I think, is that they split in half and there's sort of Vance's branch and there's Orly's branch, and there's a lot of guardians that aren't sure yet which side of those branches they want to go down. Because the Vance's side is very attractive. Right. He's saying we'll wipe them from the planet. We'll take the land back they never should have taken in the first place, and we'll have our home back. And of course, that sounds like to most mortals, yeah, that's what I want. I want them gone, you know, but unfortunately, it's not realistic. You know, this is their home now too. And these people were born here. They didn't choose to be born here, they just were. And so how do we find a world where they can live together and it's beneficial for both of them and it's not unfair and unjust. And that's what Orly is trying to do with her branch of the Guardians. So I really struggle with making the Guardians look like the villains because I think when I think of Guardians, I don't think of Vance and his branch. I think that's like a bastardization of what they stand for.
- [70:54]
B
I think that's part of what's so fascinating about the nuances between the different groups. You really get to see so many different perspectives and how people react. And then, okay, well, what is the way forward of like what least harm?
- [71:06]
A
Yeah.
- [71:07]
B
And maybe some people aren't thinking about that, Right?
- [71:09]
A
Exactly.
- [71:10]
B
Well, a lot of people are thinking about that.
- [71:12]
A
And how do you get people to want that? Because sometimes they don't want to do the least amount of harm. Sometimes harm is the goal, you know, and sometimes that's understandable. It's incredibly understandable in a lot of cases based on what people have been through. But, you know, we still have to find a way forward that doesn't involve a lot of bloodshed.
- [71:30]
B
Yeah, well, you know, I didn't feel that way when I finished Heat. That was not what I was anticipating happening next, listeners, due to the unexpected length of the interview, three whole hours. We are pausing part one here. Part two will pick up right back where we left off and you can find the link to part two of the interview down in the Show Notes Notes once it releases. We've also linked Pen Cole's socials down in the show notes so you can follow along and stay up to date on the series. Pen is also hosting a guided reread starting July 13th leading up to Burns release on September 8th, and we will link that info as well down in the show notes. If this is your first time listening, welcome. I am Hannah Michelle Romantasy fangirl and aspiring author, and you're listening to the Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast Author Interview Series where occasionally I interview amazing authors like Pen Cole, Hannah Nicole Mayer, Stacy McKeown, Jade Presley, Hazel McBride Parker Lennox Brie Greenwich, and more to come. I created Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast in the summer of 2024 out of my deep love and appreciation for the genre and it's grown into a small team which today's guest host Mary is part of. We have a completed season Deep Diving Fourth Wing through the Lens of Iron Flame and are also starting a new interview series called Dear Fantasy Community here on Dear Fantasy Reader, where we bring other industry experts that are part of getting these books into our hands onto the pod.
- [72:57]
C
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribing, leaving a review, or simply sharing us with your fellow Romantasy readers goes a really long way.
- [73:08]
B
You can find more info about our previous and upcoming seasons, episode and events calendar, other author interviews, our contact form and more on our website dearfantasyreader.com and if you wouldn't believe it, also link down in the Show Notes.
- [73:22]
C
We would love to hear from you, so send us your thoughts, tag us on Instagram, or come and fangirl with us over your favorite Romantasy books on our free Discord Chat.
- [73:33]
B
Until next time, Dearest Fantasy Readers, May your chapters be spicy, your book boyfriends morally gray and devotional, and your TBR organized just enough to justify one or three more pre orders. And stay tuned for part two. I can't believe she talked to us through three hours.
- [73:58]
C
Three hours.
- [73:59]
B
Three hours.
- [74:00]
C
I could have gone for like another 10 or 12. It was incredible.
- [74:04]
B
An angel. We love you Pen.
- [74:06]
A
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B
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A
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B
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A
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B
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