Penn Cole - Preparing for Burn of the Everflame | A Dear Fantasy Author Interview

Summary

Dear Fantasy Reader: Author Interview with Pen Cole — Preparing for Burn of the Everflame (Part Two)

Date: July 30, 2026
Podcast: Dear Fantasy Reader
Hosts: Hannah Michelle (B), Mary Cross (A — guest co-host)
Guest: Pen Cole (C), author of the Kindred’s Curse Saga
Episode Focus: In-depth, spoiler-filled dive into Pen Cole’s writing process, character arcs, series themes, and the upcoming Burn of the Everflame, final installment in the Kindred’s Curse Saga.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Dear Fantasy Reader continues the team’s in-depth, intimate conversation with Pen Cole—the mind behind the Kindred's Curse Saga—with a focus on the emotionally gripping finale, Burn of the Everflame. Hosts Hannah Michelle and debut author Mary Cross ask probing questions about Cole’s character philosophies, writing journey, reader engagement, and her insights on handling the weight of a beloved series' concluding book. The episode is packed with personal reflections, behind-the-scenes writing challenges, and broader discussions on representation, fandom, and the nature of hope in dark times.

Note: This interview contains major spoilers for books 1–3 of the series.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Character Development & Surprises

Luther’s Arc & Devotion — A Study in Undoing Armor

• Pen Cole expresses continual surprise at Luther’s growth, noting he was the least known character at the outset because “he knew himself the least.”
• Luther’s fantasy of “raising goats on a farm by the sea” (02:10) was as shocking and touching for Pen as for readers, symbolizing his yearning for a simple, unattainable happiness.
  • Quote: “I had no idea. Oh, that’s so cute. I had no idea that was coming out of his mouth.” (02:35 – C)
  • Marie Antoinette’s “hamlet” at Versailles inspires the motif—a gilded version of peasant life as escapism (03:00).
• Luther’s journey in Book 4 is about forging identity outside devotion and service, notably to the “grey-eyed queen” (Diem), highlighting the pain of falling for something unattainable.

On Growth and Core Traits

• Pen pushes back against the idea that growth is about change; instead, it’s about “understanding yourself better” and learning when qualities “become toxic if taken too far” (08:14).
  • Quote: “Luther’s never not going to be a devoted, selfless person. … Can he do that in a way that is not toxic either to him or anyone else?” (09:10 – C)

Author’s Wisdom on Character Craft — Real Life Parallels

• Pen relates her own activism and learning from “call in, not call out” mentors, and how passion, like any gift, “is a weapon or a tool depending on how it’s used.” (10:41)

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Writing Process Evolution

Challenges of Series Finale & Burnout

• Spark (Book 1) “flew out in a month” (14:07), but subsequent books became progressively harder, both due to rising complexity and external pressures.
• Writing Burn was uniquely difficult—her first as a published, not aspiring, author, and the weight of reader and reviewer expectations led to anxiety, cautiousness, and creative blockage.
  • Quote: “Every single time I opened my phone … here’s my opinion on Spark of the Everflame, here’s what I think, what I like or don’t like. That really got into my head. That really messed me up.” (15:40 – C)
• Pen had to “erase and start over” after initial draft attempts felt inauthentic—writing “for the one-star reviewers” makes “a terrible book” (16:23).
• Learned the non-negotiable need “to protect writing time” and accept that writing the last book means “you have built the bars of your cage” in series continuity (18:41).

On Plotting vs. Discovery

• Burn was “heavily plotted down to the scene, the dialogue,” but the flip side is being “trapped” at the conclusion, with less room for discovery and spontaneity (21:18).
  • Quote: “When you get to the end, you’re really trapped. And it can make writing not nearly as fun.” (21:31 – C)

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Reader Response & Character Sympathy

On Henry: Misunderstandings & Reader Resistance

• Pen emphasizes Henry as “the voice of the mortals” and is troubled by fan villainization:
  • Quote: “I’ll always be a Henry defender until the day I die. … People interpret his actions in the most negative possible light when that’s not really what was intended.” (25:00 – C)
• Henry represents the realistic, flawed, reactive person most readers would be. His weakness is being a “follower”—his path is to “make a choice for himself” (26:16).
  • Quote: “He is also … a cautionary tale of what happens when you lose yourself to hatred … he’s very influenced by whoever is in front of him at the moment.” (26:16 – C)
• Pen wants readers to see that Diem “betrayed Henry as much as he betrayed her,” and that both carry emotional wounds and mutual betrayals (29:07).

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Thematic Discussions

Books as Tools for Reflection & Change

• Discussing literary impact, Pen asserts her purpose is “books that challenge me to think more critically … have just such a unique ability” (12:42), echoing hosts' comments about the foundational role of fantasy in moral development.

Flaws, Empathy, and Female Leads

• Pen rails against the “insufferable” label for FMCs: “It’s like the generic misogynist insult we throw at every female that we dislike, which is all of them.” (36:06). She’d rather write an FMC who is “relatable than likable.”
• Quote: “If you think my FMC is insufferable, wait till you meet me.” (35:55 – C)

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Easter Eggs, Foreshadowing & Rereads

• Pen confirms that “chapter one [of book one] has so much” foreshadowing for Burn (58:17); a “pretty significant clue” about Andre’s death is hiding there, though readers haven’t noticed yet.
  • Quote: “As far as I know, no one has found it … To me, it felt like a dead giveaway—but apparently nobody has seen it that way.” (58:33 – C)
• The design motif of the ten-pointed star references a secret “10th realm” hinted since the start (“Even on the dedication page…” (60:42)).
• Burn is written “for the re-readers”—context from Burn retroactively deepens earlier scenes (63:26).

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The Emotional Toll & Stakes of the Finale

Guaranteed Trauma (& Hope)

• Pen: Burn is best described in three words: “trauma,” “growth,” and “hope” (51:44).
  • Quote: "Hope is the message of the book … they’re fighting so hard to hold onto hope when the world is giving them so few reasons to." (51:57 – C)
• Pen cried daily writing Burn—sometimes from stress, sometimes joy. She wanted to do justice to every character’s arc (22:56).
• “No one is safe” in Burn; there will be significant, devastating losses, but never “just for emotional impact”—every death is “the right ending for them.” (73:25)

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Hints, Spoilers, and Looking Forward

Single-Word Spoiler:

• Pen’s word for Burn: “Father”—with “meaning on at least six different levels.” (55:00)
  • “There’s a lot of daddy issues. … There are so many ways in which that word carries a lot of weight.” (55:20 – C)

On Pregnancy Tropes & Endings:

• She rejects the idea that HEA (“happily ever after”) requires marriage and kids for every character—endings reflect each individual’s arc (56:08).
  • Quote: “For me, the way that each character ends in Burn makes sense for who they are as a person and have been consistently through the series.” (56:18 – C)

Easter Egg Guidance:

• Many major reveals and hidden clues—especially regarding Andre’s death—are embedded in book one. “You have all the pieces. You don’t have the last little thread that would help you put them all together.” (59:45)
• Reveals some symbolic clues: ten-pointed star, fortune-teller scene in chapter one (62:00).
• Pen is open to doing an annotated version or “director’s cut” in the future (60:32).

Magic System Insights:

• Hearthstone is central to the world’s magic: “the source of all descended magic” and is key to plot developments in Burn (64:12).

POV Changes in Burn:

• Burn will feature eight different POVs.
• Pen hints some POVs will surprise or even confound readers, but every POV is carefully chosen to deepen character understanding (65:34).
  • Quote: “There’s one chapter…from a certain character’s POV a lot of people told me not to do. And I still stand by that it was the right choice.” (66:02 – C)
• The last 10 chapters are a “wild ride” (67:31).

Scene That Didn’t Make It:

• Describes a scrapped emotional scene in which Diem’s scars—symbols of her mortality—would have been erased by accident; Pen couldn’t bear to write it because the scars came to mean healing and self-acceptance (48:04).

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Adaptation News

TV Adaptation in Development

• The Kindred’s Curse saga is in early process for a television adaptation with Disney. Pen is excited but measured about the odds of seeing it go to screen (77:36).
• Expresses gratitude for her showrunner, Heidi, who “cares so much about the fans and the core of the story” (79:03).
• Pen expects her involvement in adaptation will eventually wane unless she chooses to move to LA, but is satisfied the story will remain true to her vision (80:53).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “You can tell [your characters] what to do, but they don’t listen to you. They do what they want.” (01:22 – C)
• “The biggest surprise was Luther... He put who he is...in a little box and said, I’m never going to get to access this.” (01:37 – C)
• “Growth is understanding yourself better...not changing who you are as a person, but maturing in how you move through the world with it.” (09:10 – C)
• “Every good aspect that a character has can become toxic when they take it too far.” (08:23 – C)
• “Trauma, growth, and hope. Hope is the third. And yes, it’s a dark and very heavy book, but hope is the message.” (51:44 – C)
• “I genuinely think I cried almost every day of writing it. Not always for sad reasons.” (22:56 – C)
• “There is a brighter future on the other side of this. We just can’t give up.” (53:05 – C)
• “No one is safe. OK? I think that’s the right mindset to go into Burn with.” (73:33 – C)
• “For me, the way that each character ends in Burn makes sense for who they are as a person and have been consistently through the series.” (56:18 – C)
• “I would love to do...an annotated version, you know, director’s cut. ... There’s just so many things that I think...you have all the pieces. You don’t have the last little thread.” (60:32 – C)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Luther’s Character Arc & Inspirations: 01:22 – 06:22
• Theme of Toxicity and Character Growth: 08:14 – 09:49
• Pen Cole’s Activism & Real-Life Parallels: 10:41 – 11:46
• Writing Burn of the Everflame & Authorial Pressure: 13:55 – 21:31
• Handling Reader Expectations; Foreshadowing: 24:25 – 29:07
• Henry’s Arc and Sympathy: 29:07 – 33:14
• Female Main Characters & “Insufferable” Critiques: 36:06 – 38:53
• On Burn’s Thematic Words (Trauma/Growth/Hope): 51:44 – 53:20
• Hidden Easter Eggs in Book One: 58:17 – 62:00
• POV Innovations in Burn: 65:27 – 67:31
• TV Adaptation & Author Involvement: 77:36 – 80:53

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Tone & Style

The conversation is deeply personal, emotionally open, and at times humorous but always honest—akin to a thoughtful book club with a trusted friend and the series’ creator. Pen’s responses are considered, generous, and often profound, with both hosts vacillating between fangirling and genuine analytical inquiry.

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Final Thoughts

• Pen encourages readers to join a comprehensive, author-guided reread ahead of Burn’s release (July 13–September 8).
• She offers reassurances: readers don’t need to fear missing out if they can’t reread the whole series—“very comprehensive recaps” will be available.
• Pen closes with gratitude for reader engagement and excitement to continue discussions and experience Burn together.

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Further Resources

• Pen Cole’s guided reread and socials (linked in show notes)
• Recaps and character guides to be posted in preparation for Burn of the Everflame launch

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For fans of the Kindred’s Curse Saga, this episode offers not only excitement for what's to come but a sense of camaraderie and healing—as much for the author as for the readers. Expect emotional devastation, catharsis, and, above all, hope.

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Dearest Fantasy Readers, welcome to the Dear Fantasy Author interview series where we get to talk with the brilliant minds behind our favorite Romantasy novels. I'm your host, Hannah Michelle, and this episode's guest co host is longtime Dear Fantasy Reader team member and soon to be debut romantic fantasy author, Mary Cross.

[A]

Hi everyone.

[B]

Today we are chatting with one of our all time favorite authors, Pen Cole of the romantic fantasy series the Kindred's Curse Saga, where we will discuss her writing process and upcoming highly anticipated release of Burn of the Everflame.

[A]

Because we had so many questions for Pen, the interview ran much longer than anticipated and we've broken three hours. Yeah, we've broken the interview up into two parts. So you are listening to part two, which is entirely spoiled, spoiler filled. Meaning if you have not read the first three books in the Kindred Curse saga, this is your formal warning to pause and come back to this episode once you have.

[B]

We recommend listening to part one of this interview before diving into part two so you don't miss anything, which we'll link down in the show notes. Due to the nature of the series, this podcast is rated R for content and language. Was there anything else that surprised you as you wrote the series?

[C]

So much Surprised me so much. So much. I mean, your characters always surprise you, right? Like, you can tell them what to do, but they don't listen to you. They do what they want. I think the biggest surprise was Luther. He was the character I knew the least when I started writing the series. And I think it's because he knew himself the least. You know, he very much put who he is, what he wants aside and he like locked it in a little box and said, I'm never going to get to access this. So I'm putting it on a shelf and I'm forgetting about it and I'm putting on this armor of the prince. And that is who I am. And not just the prince, but like the prince who's there to serve the Gray Eyed Queen, right? Like his whole existence is to serve the Gray Eyed Queen and to serve Lumnos. And he just never lets himself think about life outside of that box. And it's really like that moment that they have when they're walking up the street in Sophos and Diem's like, okay, well what would you do? Who would you be if you weren't the prince? And he has the craziest answer, which is like, I don't know, I'd raise goats, like in a farm by the sea, I guess. And it surprised me as much as everyone else, but I think.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Oh, yeah. I had no idea. Oh, that's so cute. I had no idea that was coming out of his mouth.

[B]

The art you've got out of it too.

[C]

That was the biggest surprise to me, honestly. And I think it's because, you know, so much of the book is inspired by my life in Europe. But there's a. If you go to Versailles here in Paris, you go to. There's like Marie Antoinette's little hamlet and it's like a little farmhouse and there's like a dairy and a place like a chicken coop and all that, but it's made out of marble and gold and it's like the most fancy farm you've ever seen in your life. Because she was kind of like larping being a poor person, right? She was play acting and romanticizing what she thought a poor person's life was like. Like, oh, they don't have to worry about anything. They just go gather their eggs and they milk their cows and what a lovely simple life they have. Not me. I have this horrible life as queen and that was her escape. And I think in some ways that's kind of the headspace that Luther is in, which is like, I would love to just have this simple life where I, you know, cared for my goat and picked apples in my orchard and then I wouldn't have to worry about the woman I love being killed every day and you know, this big war and wearing a crown, et cetera, et cetera. And he. I think what he wants most in life is just like a simple life with the woman that he loves. And that is what I think the goat and that whole thing represents really, is this life where he just gets to focus on himself and the things that he cares about as opposed to living for other people. And because to him that's like a thing he'll never have. He never asked himself, well, who am I? Who would I want? What do I want out of life? Like, what would I choose? It's just not something he ever allowed himself to consider because it's too painful to fall in love with something you can't have, you know. So as he discovers himself and this is like a huge part of book four, right? Cause you know, he's on his own now is who is he if he doesn't have a gray eyed queen to serve? And he is on his own path. So I don't know. We'll find out.

[A]

We might need to take a minute because I might be about to Cry that, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a rough book for him, for sure.

[A]

I mean, great.

[C]

It's a rough book for everyone, to be honest.

[A]

It's not just Luther.

[C]

Every character has a moment where they're really forced to challenge themselves. And figure out who they truly are. And we're really approaching Luther's. Where he has to decide who he is outside of just Diem's sort of partner.

[A]

Yeah. But I think he is written so beautifully. Because you really see his devotion to Diem as he loves her, but you see his devotion to his position and to everything that he's been.

[B]

That, like, life purpose.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. I don't know. Maybe this is because I have not got a devotion in my life. But I almost feel like it's so heartbreaking that he feels that strongly that he's sort of never given and what would you do if you weren't doing that? I thought. And it's just. That's.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Really beautiful. It's sad.

[A]

Really sad.

[C]

It is sad. But it also. I think it's nice that he's now surrounded by people who want that for him. And who are like, that's something you should pursue. And not forcing him into this role of service that everyone else has forced him into his whole life.

[B]

I will come to explain this more later. That I am very attached to Luther. I don't know that actually really fully encompasses it. And I was just thinking about my reaction as you were saying all of that. Because at the same time, as it is very heartbreaking. And I'm quite scared to read Burn. Mary and I have talked about this a couple times. Like it's my most anticipated book. But I'm really terrified. Is that helping?

[A]

I'm gonna have to change my sleep schedule so we can read it together.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you know, I read that Pen Said space it out over a week. And I'm glad you said that, because I would have just tried to force.

[C]

But no, you're gonna need breaks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As much as that really is going to be difficult for me to read. As someone who deeply loves Luther. I also find something like. I don't know if solace is the right word. But as you were saying that and describing what he's about to face. I actually do find comfort's not the word either. Something around that realm. Because when you have a devotional character in the way that you do with him. And I love that aspect of him. I do think that that requires them to not have as much room for themselves. And so Because I so deeply care about him as a character. I do want that for him, even though I also simultaneously am like, no, let's just keep him devotional and happy. Is that really justice for him and his character, which I know that you have spent so much intentional time thinking about. For all of the characters to wrap up the books, which I think is personally worth any amount of time you could ever spend on this book, is because we all love them so much and we want that for all of them, not just Luthor. But I'm praised Luthor.

[C]

Everything good has a dark side, right? Everything beneficial can become toxic if it's too much. And we see that in so many.

[B]

You have the best quotes.

[C]

We see it in so many ways in the series. And, you know, DM's compassion and her willingness to forgive the people die because of it. And it causes a lot of issues. Luther's selflessness and devotion to DM will cause issues and has caused issues. You know, it was like, kind of the core of their conflict in book three. And all of this, like, every good aspect that a character has can become toxic when they take it too far. And so that's a big part of their growth journey is I think sometimes people look at character growth as, like, changing and becoming something different. I don't necessarily think that that's growth. I think growth is understanding yourself better and, you know, understanding when you go too far. And, like, how do you keep the core of who you are? How do you, like, not change who you are as a person, but mature in how you move through the world with it, use it in a more responsible, ethical way? And so that's. Luther's never not going to be a devoted, selfless person. He's just not. And if you expect that from him, you will be left wanting. But how does he. Can he do that in a way that is, you know, not toxic either to him or to anyone else?

[B]

I'm gonna be stewing on that response for, like, I'm really gonna have to take notes. I'm gonna listen back to this interview and seriously, like, not just for my burn reread, but so much of this, I also think can just be applied in real life. And then also, as we're both learning to write characters that people will love. I think that's such an important aspect to consider.

[A]

I know that all we've done is be like, oh, you're so amazing. We love you so much, and we do, but you are so wise.

[C]

I just sit here and think about these things on my Own for hours. And so, you know, I have a

[A]

little career suggestion for you. If you wanted to deliver classes and, like, people would.

[B]

I would take any courses you ever. Any topic. Not that you have the time.

[C]

But, like, I'm the product of people much smarter than me. You know, I'm the product of a lot of amazing, incredible people that have forced me to check myself and have called in as opposed to calling out, and have asked me when I was. Like, I mentioned I was younger and I was very passionate in my activism. And I had a lot of people who had to sit me down and be like, there's a toxic side to that. You're turning people away from the cause when you do that. And you are making things worse. And you gotta grow up and become an adult and mature, and how do you do this in a responsible way? And that was a real. Like, that to me is when I became an adult. It was like in my probably late 20s, but that was like, becoming an adult to me was understanding that, you know, passion is good, but it's also a weapon. And, you know, how do you make it a tool as opposed to a weapon? And that's true with everything about yourself. Kindness, positivity, you know, all of these things that can become very toxic if you use them in the wrong way.

[B]

And the way that you just mirrored your previous response about how you build your character arcs essentially to not necessarily change them, but to. You literally just gave your own.

[A]

I know that Hannah mentioned it earlier, and it's something that Hannah and I have talked about a lot, is how much we love your presence on social media. And I say this, like, even if I hadn't read your books, I would admire you so much because of who you are on threads specifically and your interactions on there. And I think you are so refreshing because you. You don't treat threads like it's an echo chamber.

[B]

I don't know if you knew that you were coming to more of like a let me tell you everything we love about you interview, but, like, technically, that's what we've done here, so. Oops.

[C]

No, it's nice getting to talk about the why behind everything, because that's the value of art. That's what makes books and reading so special, is that when there is. And nothing against books that are just written for fun, because goodness knows I have a lot of them and I love them. And there's value in that, too. But for what I'm trying to do and what I enjoy reading, I love when there's a deeper Meaning or it challenges me to think more critically about something in the world, and that is books have just such a unique ability to do that for you. It's a really cool tool.

[B]

They're so formative too. I mean, just some of the series that I read through middle school and high school, so foundational to my morals 100%. Of course, they evolve over time and you have more nuance as you get older and you learn more things. You learn how much you just don't know. You just find out how much you don't know. But books are so impactful like that, and this series was one of those things for me, truly.

[A]

How do you think your writing process has changed over the years or has

[B]

it outside of moving from couch to office?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Every book has been such a different experience. I think Spark just flew out of me. I wrote it in, I think a month.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Really fast.

[C]

Because it just. It was like that story was bursting out and I could barely type fast enough and I was having to force myself to go to bed. And even when I was in bed, it was like the next chapter was writing itself in my head as I'm laying in bed. All I wanted to do was write all I wanted to do. And then Glow was a little bit more of a. You know, I kind of mentioned like self doubt and can I really do this? And I loved writing glow, but I very much was beginning to second guess myself and say, is this right? Am I doing this right? You know, whereas Spark, I was just getting the words out because they were coming more quickly than I could analyze them. With Glow, it was a little bit more. I was in my head about it and he was just a beast because there was so much happening and I could feel myself writing a 500,000 word book. And I was like, I can't do that.

[A]

That's too.

[C]

And so it was reining myself in and saying, what of this story actually needs to be told? Because I could write 20 books on this series. You know, there's so much story that I could tell.

[B]

20 books on this series.

[C]

I can't. I can't do. I mean, I can. The material is there, but the will is not.

[B]

I get it. I understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I said what actually needs to be told here. But also, you know, the book was dealing. The war was starting and we were really getting. It wasn't just two sides now. There was like three and four sides. And we were getting a lot more nuance to everything. I spent a lot more time when I was writing Heat, just like sitting and thinking and saying, what is the right way to approach this conversation or what is the responsible way to portray this message or whatever. And so it was less about doubt and more about trying to be really responsible in how I. I told the story. And then Burn was every possible challenge you could imagine, because Burn was the first book I wrote as a published author. The first three I wrote before I ever published Spark. And so I went from writing those books in a vacuum where I wasn't really getting much feedback. I mean, I had some beta readers, but other than that, I didn't have reviewers. I didn't have social media telling me what I should or shouldn't write. And with Burn, every single time I opened my phone or my laptop, it was. Even when I didn't seek it out, it was like, here's my opinion on Spark of the Everflame, here's my opinion on dm, here's what I think, what I like or don't like. And that really got into my head. That really messed me up. I think every new author goes through this at some point where they really struggle with how do I. What do I take, if anything, from negative reviews, you know, and so that made me so much more of a cautious writer. And I was afraid to do anything that would upset people. I was afraid to do things that I'd been criticized for in the past. And that's a terrible way to write a book that is not conducive to good art, to be scared to do things. And so, you know, the first bit of Burn that I wrote was garbage and I had to erase it and start over because I was not writing the book for me. I was writing it for the one star reviewers, you know, and it was a terrible book as a result. So then it was. There was a lot of burnout and there was a lot of writer's block because I was just on tour constantly and I was doing signings and events and interviews almost every day. There was something and that made it really, really hard to. For me, I need to kind of stay in the world and not have any other distractions. And there was a distraction every day. You know, I would wake up, I would need to do a couple hours of admin work, answering a million emails, whatever, and then I would write for a few hours and then I would have an interview or I would have an event and that I couldn't do it. I was unable to, like, lose myself in the world like I had with the first three books. And So I had to learn that my writing time has to be protected, and I have to sort of withdraw from the world and say, you're not going to get me for the next few months and allow the book to be the only priority in my life for at least some amount of time. And that helps me get back kind of into the writing again. But then I also. I was still suffering from a lot of burnout, so the words were coming a lot slower. And I really struggled with, like, I guess just. I don't know. I don't know what causes burnout. I think it's honestly different every time you have it, but it just was a struggle to get words on page. Even though I knew exactly what was gonna happen, getting that from my brain to the paper was. It was like pulling teeth. Every single word was a battle. And so that was a real struggle. And I think part of that was that it was the last book in a series. And in the first three books, you can always change things. And you can say, oh, let me introduce a new plot line, or, you know, actually, I don't like this plot line. Like, let me just get rid of it. And you have so much control over what's happening. And in a book four, you have built the bars of your cage, and you're now sitting inside of it. And you're very limited in what you can do because so much of the world is built already. And I had to learn that that's the downside of writing a long series, is you can write yourself into a corner really quickly. And if I don't have freedom to make those creative changes, it becomes really hard to write. So I think I've learned a lot about myself and about writing and just being an author with each book. And I think as I continue to write more books, each one will be a very unique experience as I grow and learn.

[B]

I almost never know what to say back because I just so like, the level of information and how you deliver is incredible. So a couple things came to mind, and then you answered them immediately. Am I correct in that? I don't know if it's somewhere along the line I made this assumption or if this was actually said somewhere. But I want to say that I recalled you mentioned rewriting. I imagine you rewrote quite a bit of burn based on what you're saying here, but that the end sections. Why do I remember you saying something along the lines of, I really want to justice for each of them? And what that looked like. Took you time.

[C]

Yeah. I always knew how Things would end for all of them. And that never really changed. And that was part of the problem, is that I knew where the arcs would end, and so I had no flexibility to change that. And that's okay. Cause I still think where they ended is where it needed to end. But I think it's your muse, right? The part of your brain that likes creating isn't as excited by that. Like, just writing what you already expect to happen. It's not as exciting as saying, now what's going to happen? Like, what are we going to do?

[B]

Like, the discovery of it all.

[C]

It's the downside to being a heavy plotter. You know, there's positives and negatives to both sides. And I'm like, I still enjoy being a heavy plotter, and I still plan to do it in the future. But it's something I've had to learn. That, like, that's the downside is that when you get to the end, you. You're really trapped. And it can make writing not nearly as fun as it used to be.

[B]

When you say that you're a heavy plotter, what does that look like for you? Because I know that can range.

[C]

I had it down to the chapter, to the scene. I had specific chunks of dialogue before I ever wrote anything. I knew exactly where this story was going. I knew every bit. Of course, a lot changed, you know, as I was writing. And it should. Right. You should give yourself that freedom. But I knew exactly. I knew every character's arc. I knew the arcs of the Guardians, the arcs of the romance, the arcs of certain friendships and romantic relationships. And all of this stuff was planned out and the specific beats I needed to hit before I ever, ever started writing anything. I still think that was the way to go, because, again, it helped me get a lot of my bad ideas out, and it helped me get to, I think, what are much more interesting ways of doing it. But it certainly becomes less fun, you know, towards the end of the book.

[B]

I'm dying to read this book. Have you been to nonsection yet? I'm like, I'm dying to read this book.

[C]

I'm really proud of it.

[B]

I was about to say you could just see how much you've poured into the book to make it what it is. And I just can't wait to hopefully honor that by, like, devouring it slowly over the span of at least a week.

[C]

I genuinely think I cried almost every day of writing it. Not always for sad reasons. Sometimes it was just, you know, the stress. Sometimes it was the emotion of knowing it was coming to an end sometimes. Happy tears. A lot of Happy tears. My PAs. My PAs. The time they cried the hardest was, like, a happy moment. And, I mean, One of my PAs sent me a message. She disappeared for 45 minutes as she was, like, live reacting. And she comes back at the end. She's like, I just laid on the floor of my bathroom and just sobbed, like, naked. Because I was getting out of the shower. And I started, like. I turned on the audio, or not the audio, but, like, where it reads to you, you know? And she's like, I didn't even get dressed. Cause I, like, just started crying. And I sat naked on the floor of my bathroom, crying.

[B]

So basically, this book.

[C]

But it was a happy. People interpret that as, like, oh, it was devastating. No, it was a really happy moment. And I think it's just a really emotional book on so many different levels for me, for the characters, like, for readers, it's just gonna be a lot.

[A]

I am so ready for some emotional devastation.

[C]

I hope so, because it's coming.

[B]

I'm ready for the. Ready for the happy tears.

[A]

So, like, you really touched on it, talking about imposter syndrome and stuff. But was there anything else that made the writing process really hard or, like, anything that we've not already talked about?

[C]

Hmm. Not managing is the wrong word. But I guess the way that readers felt about characters was not necessarily how I intended for them to feel about certain characters. Oh, and part of the struggle with burn has been like, can I use burn to course correct that, or do I just let that happen? Because that's like, you know, the death of the author thing. Right? Once. Once you write it, it's out of your hands, and it's now for the readers to interpret. And that's something I've struggled with quite a lot. But I also think, like, Henry is one big example is that people have.

[B]

I knew immediately you were talking about.

[C]

People have very strong feelings about him. And because he. His role in the story is largely the voice of the mortals, it bothers me that people have such negative feelings about him and that they sometimes don't hear what he has to say about the war and the oppression and the injustice, because they dislike him because of his place as, like, a romantic foil to Luther. And so how, like, do I try and course correct that? Do I try and make him more sympathetic? Or do I just let it be and let people draw the conclusions they're gonna draw? But I think I also have some kind of responsibility to, like, not let every mortal who is Vocal about their oppression, become villainized, you know. And so this is why I talk about him a lot in interviews and why I stand up for him. And I'll always be a Henry defender until the day I die. Because, you know, I think he's really misunderstood, and I think people interpret his actions in, like, the most negative possible light when that's not really what was intended, at least from my end.

[B]

And I. I heard you're gonna make us pay for that. Well, I heard you make us pay.

[C]

Henry's journey is a very interesting one. And it's. I don't know.

[B]

I can see it's gonna be controversial flashing in your eyes that, yeah, we'll see.

[C]

We'll see what people have to say. But he, to me, is also like a cautionary tale of what happens when you, like, lose yourself, I think, to hatred and lose yourself to. Henry is at his core, a follower. Right. If all of his friends jumped off a cliff, he would dive right after them. And he is very influenced by whoever is in front of him at any given moment. When he's with Vance, he's like, heck, yeah, let's go kill some descended. Like, I'm down. When he's in front of dm, he's like, you're right, that's too far. Like, we should. We should scale this back, you know, like, maybe we can do this a better way. And, you know, Arleigh was his, you know, mother figure for so long, and she brought him into the Guardians and she really set him on that course of, you know, let's fight for the mortals, but, like, in a better way. And so when Orly was out of the picture, that's when he really went off the rails. So I think that part of his journey in particular is he gonna make a choice for himself as opposed to just listening to whoever's in front of him. And if he doesn't, who's he gonna put in front of him that he chooses to follow? So every single scene that Henry is in and every single conversation that he has is the hardest scene. Cause I care so much about how readers interpret that, how he is seen. You know, am I doing justice to the arguments that he's making? Cause I agree with most of them. And, you know, how do I preserve his place as sort of the foil to Luther and also like, this friendship with DM that is having its own ups and downs with his other role in the story as a guardian and as sort of, you know, this mouthpiece

[A]

for the mortals outside of Diem. And Luther, Henry is my favorite character. I love him, really. I really do. And I think part of the reason I love him is because I see quite a lot of myself when I was a bit younger in Henry, which probably tells you more than you need to know about me.

[C]

I honestly, I think Henry is who most people would be in his situation. Like, I think his response to everything is the one that whatever people think they would do in this situation, I think he's the one they would most realistically do. And I also think that's why people sometimes don't like him, is because he's a mirror in many, many ways.

[A]

And I think that's what it is for me, is that I am older now, and I can see where I've grown, and that makes me feel very fond of Henry. But the question is, we know that Henry is one of your favorites. What do you want readers to better understand about him and his character and his mot. Motivations?

[C]

As I mentioned, Henry has a couple different roles in the story. His sort of, again, the foil to Luther, right. In the romantic relationship, he stands in Luther's way. As we see by the end of Heat, that is no longer the case. Right. The romantic arc with DM has reached its conclusion and will not be going any further for multiple reasons. And then there's sort of his role as, like, DM's friend and the friendship they have between them. And that has had its ups and downs and, of course, is very complicated by the relationship aspect. But can he still be a person that DM would be proud of and that DM would want. Would, like, support? And I think he wants to be the kind of guy that would, like, make DM proud and that DM would want to call her friend. But right now, they're in a really tough place for that, for so many reasons. You know, he's. He feels like she betrayed him, and he. And she did. I mean, let's be honest. Everybody gives him crap for cheating on her, but she also cheated on him with Luther. So, like, fair is fair. Okay? Everybody's mad that he kept secrets from dm. She very much kept a lot of secrets from him. She didn't open up to him with how she was truly feeling about their relationship. She didn't open up to him about, you know, being queen or any of the things that were going on at the palace. And so they really betrayed each other in a lot of different ways. And he's justifiably so hurt from that and unsure he can trust her. And so as she's saying, okay, but, like, follow me down this different path in this war. He's really struggling with that because of that betrayal. And I think, you know, I've always said Henry has three journeys. He has his romantic journey with dm, he has his friendship journey with dm, and he sort of has the journey for his soul. Is he gonna choose Vance's path and kind of go into the darkness, or is he gonna choose a different path and still fight for the mortals, but in a way that he can feel proud of? And I think we know how the romantic one ends. I think the friendship one, I don't know. Maybe we know, maybe we don't. It's certainly not in a good place now. And then the third one has yet to be seen. And, you know, she leaves him with this choice of, I'm on your side with fighting for the mortals, but, like, go this way, not this way. And we don't see his answer. And I think getting his answer in burn is gonna tell us a lot about how that journey's gonna end.

[B]

Ooh.

[C]

So we'll see. We'll see.

[B]

I can't wait. I say, voice shaking.

[C]

I want people to have more comp. Compassion for him. I want them to put themselves in his shoes and see things from his perspective. I don't know if they will or not. I have a lot of doubts they will at this stage, but hopefully, you know, I'm going to keep being a Henry apologist, and maybe they will.

[B]

You advocating for Henry really made me look at myself and be like, oh, maybe is it because he's a mirror to me?

[C]

So do you feel guilty yet?

[B]

You're slowly, surely getting the fandom, of course, corrected.

[C]

Yeah. In the same way that he's villainized for what he says and does. Any kind of, like, rebellion group is villainized and called terrorists. They're, you know, well, we agree with your cause, but not your methods. And if you just weren't a little. If you weren't so angry, if you weren't so violent, maybe we would listen to you. And they're like, we've tried that so many times.

[B]

Well, and that's what I was saying earlier about, like, the. How do you tell the people that have been oppressed exactly how to respond? I mean, of course, there are, like, considerations that you hope that someone could have, but, like, taken to their most extreme point, how can you really expect that to be, like, a human reaction? Right. And I think that's. You capture that so well.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

Well, I think I'm gonna Eat. My first reaction to Henry when I read Burn.

[C]

We'll see.

[B]

You have moved me over to the light side, but good.

[C]

Join. Join Team Henry. There's not many of us, but it's a good team.

[A]

I love him. I really do love him. So, yeah. Which characters would you say that you were the most or least similar to, respectively?

[C]

I'm the most similar to Taryn, I think, for sure. Oh, yeah, he's man Guy in, like, himbo form for sure. He's like, we at least have the same sense of humor. He's me, especially when I was younger, that kind of very, very strong emotional reaction to everything. I mean, he's always at a 10 when he's either out of happ or if you cross him, going to a 10 in anger. And so he, I think, is very much like me in that regard. The characters I'm probably least like are the more measured ones, you know, the more, like, calmer. Like the Elixes and, you know, the Eleanors and all of them. They're much more reserved and, like, careful in the choices that they make. That's not me at all, I don't think. Or at least that's not how I see myself. Maybe it is, I don't know. But I think there's a little bit of me in all of them. And there has to be, because even the really bad characters, like even the Martha Hanovers and the Vances, in order to write them authentically, I have to put myself in their shoes and I have to say, what made them like this? Why are they so angry? Why are they so mean? And I have to believe that what I'm saying as them is justified and is right, because they do. And so the end result of that is that I have a little bit of sympathy for all of them. And there's probably a little bit of myself in all of them because I have to put myself in their shoes to write them.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

That is so cool that you can pour so many little different aspects of yourself because they are fully fleshed out characters. And it's like, how do you get there without understanding, like, why they're saying the things that they do? And they just feel so real, which is always the goal. But you executed that really well. I've said this already, so I'll make it simple here, but I resonated with DM a lot. And when I was reading your books, I think I just finished and then entered here's my own space of reading the books. I'm entering into the world of everybody's opinions about the books and things like that. And so I was in that timeframe, and I came across your thread that said something along the lines of, if you think my FMC is insufferable, wait till you meet me. And I resonated with that so much. I mean, if I didn't already love you, immediately I was like, yes, because I did resonate with DM so much. And it's like, just to hear you be like, well, you know, just, like, own that. Like, I love that.

[C]

And so that is, like, my least favorite word now, because every FMC in existence gets called insufferable. And it's like the generic misogynist insult that we throw at every female, you know, that we dislike, which is all of them. And the way that I see it applied to every kind of female character. If you're quiet, if you are, you know, shy, if you're kind, if you're mean, if you're every. No matter what kind of woman you write, if she's the leading woman, she will be called insufferable. It pisses me off, to be honest with you.

[B]

Mm.

[C]

But it's one of those things where I've had to just, you know, put my head down and say, listen, that's my girl. I believe in her. I think she's a great person. I think she makes eminently justifiable decisions based on what she knows and what she believes. And, you know, I wouldn't change a thing about her, except that she's dead now. So.

[B]

Ben, I was gonna say I just, like, love how much that you lean into that. Like, I've already gotten Alpha reading feedback, and one of the comments was like, well, we have to be careful to make sure she's not insufferable.

[C]

Good love.

[B]

You've watched Love Island. You've seen the Melanie meme where she turns. She's like, that's what I. That was my reaction to that. I was like, okay. Well, she's literally reacting naturally.

[C]

I know. I mean, it is part of writing where you want your main character to be likable. Although there are certainly authors that have done incredible jobs writing intentionally unlikable protagonists. You know, this is one of the interesting things about Secrets of Story that I mentioned earlier. The craft book I've been reading is they talk about how you get an audience to empathize with your protagonist. And it's not, you know, he uses the Save the Cat, which is sort of very, very, very famous. Craft book. Save the Cat says, we'll have Them save a cat in the beginning. And so they seem like a hero and they seem like a good guy. And we always want to root for a good guy. And, you know, the secrets of story response to that is, well, most people don't see themselves running into a birding building to save a cat. You know, they might think like, oh, yeah, I'd save a cat if I could. But like, they don't see themselves as a superhero who would do this big grandstanding thing, but they also don't see themselves as like a villain that would do all the wrong things. So it's like, how do you make your main character somebody that is sort of in that middle where the reader sees a bit of themselves in that person? And I think I'd rather have an FMC that is relatable than likable. But I think if you have an FMC that's relatable, the likability aspect takes care of itself, at least to the extent that it needs to.

[B]

Once again, the notes that I'm going to have to come back through here and take. I think that's such a good point because it's like, if you have characters that have to have a flaw, how do you then make sure that they aren't perfect? Because people will just. I mean, and female main characters are just going to take the brunt of that every time. Right.

[C]

I think as an author, you just have to make your peace with it and accept it and try to not let it get to you or not let it change your character either. Because at the end of the day, you know what the character needs to be. And that's your story to tell, not anybody else's.

[B]

I know that's right. Oh, here we go. Okay. You should know that Luther is my book husband. And I take that very seriously. Okay? Because I'm a lover girl. Like, I love a book boyfriend. That man is my book husband. What was the process like conceptualizing such a top tier mmc? I say his week. That's so ironic coming from the conversation that we just had. But I love DM2.

[C]

You know, I think that Luther, every character has a few words that sort of sum them up right? And his is devotion to the max. You know, it's just absolutely absolute, just complete selflessness and devotion. But also, I think he's sort of emotionally stunted in many ways, which is not to say that he's incapable of it. He just won't let himself go there. You know, he stops himself sort of before he can. And with DM is sort of the first time that he can't stop himself. He tries and he just sort of tumbles headfirst into these really strong feelings, whether he wants to or not. Heavy on the or not. Because, you know, she's just so inspiring to him in so many different ways. And so one of the things that I really loved about crafting him is that he starts off as this very cold, closed off, reserved, no emotion, you know, no strong anything. And then you see him sort of slip and lose it and lose his cool around her. And especially when people try and hurt her or insult her. He likes. Reacts in these ways that I think surprise even him. Like, why did I care so much that this guard, you know, insulted her or whatever. I just love watching him surprise himself as he grows and develops and like opens like a little flower opening up, you know. And that has really been. His character is just this onion that has been so tightly packed for so long and finally getting to see the layers that he. That even he didn't know existed.

[B]

I imagine that that sort of helped with the slow burn of it all. Like that level of restraint that he has just internally in general. And then how that bleeds into him and his dynamic with DM of not wanting to sort of let himself.

[C]

For sure. Absolutely. I think also his experience growing up being seen as the heir and having everyone want something from him and want to use him. There's a speech he gives in Glow when he's sort of confessing his feelings to her for the first time. And he says, like, you know, everyone wants a piece of you. And I never wanted to be that person because, like, I lived it and everyone either wanted to be my lover or my friend or use me or whatever, and all I was to them was like a future king. And he never wanted to be that person that saw in DM what he could have for himself. Like, you know, what could she give me that I want? And the great irony is that she's the one who challenges him, like, what do you want? You know, and that he's resisting that so much because to him that's selfish and that's wrong and that's how everyone else has used him. So he resists it. Cause he really sees it as doing wrong to dm, you know, to want a piece of her. And it's just really sweet watching that whole process on her behalf. Yeah.

[B]

But not his own.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that also is what gives them such a strong foundation, is that he is really careful to never use her in a way that she doesn't, isn't encouraging him to use. You know what I mean? There are times when she's like, no, no, no, like I want to be there for you. Like I want to support you in this way. And he will never ask for it. She has to sort of force it upon him. And that I think is what gives them a real trust and that safeness to their relationship. That she knows everything he asks of her or says to her is for her benefit and not his own. Gosh, as women do we want anything more than that? Right. That is all we want in life is a man we feel safe with and a man we know we can trust to never betray us, exploit us, take advantage of us, whatever. And he. I think part of what makes him so dreamy is that you really can't trust that of him. Even if he's acting weird and doing suspicious things, it's always because he's trying to protect you or save you from some kind of harm.

[B]

I love that you say you because I'm totally self inserting. Oh yeah. The travels and heat just flashed in my mind and how heartbreaking that was to see. But you know, we've gone down a lot of rabbit holes, so I'll hold off on that one.

[C]

That was a rough one. It was a rough time for him and it was a rough time writing him because I think it was the first time in the series where he was doing things I knew readers wouldn't like. And I thought, you know, I might lose him, like in the sense of like, readers might not like him anymore. They might say, well, he's no longer my book boyfriend. Because like he did these. He was kind of mean or kind of aggressive or whatever. And I just had to hope that with the whole Godstone poisoning, I had to write it because there were gonna be some people that figured it out immediately. And there were gonna be some people that's what helped.

[B]

It helped me not be able to. I didn't hold it against him because

[C]

I can't gonna be people who didn't know until he revealed it. And I had to write it in a way that it did justice to both of those reading experiences where if you understand why he's doing it, your heart is breaking for him and you know that he's pushing her away and it's devastating him to do it. Cause he feels like he's failing her by dying, you know, and if you don't know, then you are on the same journey DM is on, which is like, do I choose to trust this man, even though he's obviously keeping a secret and pushing me away. And dm, you know, she has that moment where she says she kind of recalls what her father said to her about, like, you don't have to know all of someone to love all of them. And she says, you know, you chose to stand by me. I'm gonna choose to stand by you. Even if you're keeping a secret from me, even if there's something you can't tell me, I'm gonna choose to trust you and stand by you anyway. And that.

[B]

God, I love them so much.

[C]

It's like a really sweet moment of just incredible trust between the two of them.

[B]

And the payoff with the Everflame Tree Library seed made it all worth it.

[C]

Finally made it all worth it.

[B]

I give them a little bit of

[C]

joy and then destroy it. You never, never trust a happy moment in a fantasy book.

[B]

Oh, well,

[A]

I feel like we've talked about it quite a lot, but did anything about his character change throughout your writing process that, like, surprised you?

[C]

I don't think anything changed. I think it was just watching him grow and develop that I. I saw it going in ways I didn't expect. You know, I saw him, especially when he became a little flirty or a little, like, would joke with her. Like, it was almost like he told a joke and was like I was funny. You know, like, we're all surprised together, even him, you know, even me. And it was just really cute. You know, boys can be so cute sometimes. And I think he had these really cute moments of a little bit of that shell kind of opening up and seeing who he is, who he would have been in a different life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Come out. Oh, don't get me started.

[B]

You're gonna make me cry.

[C]

Sometimes I think about, like, alternate universe. Luther and Diem, if they, you know, just were just two kids having fun and how different their lives would have

[B]

been with their goats.

[C]

I know. Oh, so sad.

[B]

I feel like you enjoy this. Yeah. Before we get into burn, can you share a scene that didn't make it into any of the first three books of the Kindred's Curse saga?

[C]

Yeah. So there was supposed to be a scene, and I can't remember exactly where I had originally slotted it in, but it was a scene where DM accidentally gets all of her scars healed away and she's been injured, and then a healer comes and helps her, and the healer goes too far and kind of wipes away all of the scars that she has from her childhood. And it was intended to be a really devastating moment for her because it feels as if it's like erasing her mortal hood, you know, and, like, the last of her. Because at the time, like, Andre was gone, and it sort of felt like her mortal life was just being erased step by step. And, you know, scars are an important theme in this series. They come up in a lot of different ways, and they have a lot of conversations about them. And DM loves her scars. They mean so much to her. And she smiles when she talks about how she got them because they're, like, all funny stories. And as I was thinking about getting to the point at which that that scene was supposed to happen, like, it was just too painful. I couldn't do it. I've done horrible things to this woman. But that felt like, too far. That felt like taking it too much of that I was ready to take. And it, like. I still get really emotional when I think about how she would have reacted to that and how broken that would have made her. So I said, I can't do this. I can't write this scene. I gotta take it out. And I think that was a really shocking moment to me because I. I sort of had this moment where I said, wait a minute. Am I saying that healing her, taking away all of her scars so that she has this perfect, flawless body with no blemishes, no anything, is too sad to write? And it sort of made me realize my own perception of scars and what they mean had changed over the course of writing the book. And, like, some part of me had healed through the conversations that she and Luther had had about scars. And that was really, really powerful to see how that book. The book could change me as a person in ways I didn't expect.

[B]

Okay. Well, it was already getting emotional, being up to you, but now I'm done for.

[C]

It's. Yeah. I still get really emotional every time I think about it because just, it's a really special thing for a book to be. Obviously, I want it to be healing in some way for my readers, but it's, like, so unexpected for it to be healing for me, too.

[B]

And your characters to do that for you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which feels so full circle.

[C]

It feels like DM gave me that gift, you know, Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It doesn't feel like a choice I made.

[B]

I think the emotion we feel right now is setting up perfectly for the burn, if you ever. Flame. Yeah.

[C]

For the trauma that is Burn. Yeah.

[B]

You know, you keep using, like. I'm noticing the word choice that you have, like destruction. Trauma. Like, I'm not ready, but I'm getting ready. I'm doing my best to get ready because we do officially have a Release date now, September 8th of 2026, which. Congratulations. I'm so excited for you for that.

[C]

A tiny bit more than two months away, which is crazy to think about.

[B]

It's gonna fly by, but also for you. Hopefully fly by for you, but for us, we're just chomping at the bit, you know? Yeah.

[C]

I'm so ready.

[B]

Ironically, I don't even know if I want to ask this anymore. If you had to describe Burn of the Everflame in three words, what would they be?

[C]

I mean, trauma, for sure. No, the third one. I'm trying to think of the second one. Change or maybe growth is a big one.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And then. And then hope. Hope is the third. And I. Yes, it's a dark and very heavy book, but hope is the message of the book. And it's. I think the reason why it's a dark and heavy book is because they're fighting so hard to hold onto hope when the world is giving them so few reasons to. And that, to me, is. Right. It's so reflective of what's going on in the world. And I think I wrote the book that I needed because looking around, it's so easy to give into hopelessness and apathy and say, you know, none of it matters. Like, it's never gonna change. You know, what can I do? I'm just one person. And everything is so terrible. And these characters are really fighting to not give in to that mentality and to say, no, this is worth fighting for. This is worth making sacrifices for. There is a brighter future on the other side of this. We just can't give up. So I think that part of why it's so heavy and hard is because it's so relatable in that way.

[B]

The relief that I just felt because, you know, like, I know that it's gonna be a time getting through. It's gonna be a little traumatic, I think, for myself to. But to know that there is that beacon of hope at the end.

[C]

Definitely.

[B]

I can't wait.

[C]

Definitely. And it's, you know, it's also a story about coming together. We now have a very serious threat in Ophiuchai, and the crowns are their own kind of threat, you know, and so how do the, you know, the good descended and the good mortals, like, how do they come out on the other side of this? Because the Queen of Umbros warned us nobody's gonna escape. This war, like, nobody is gonna get out of this unscathed. So what's gonna happen that's gonna pull every single corner of the realm into this war? And how is each corner going to respond to it? It's been a really interesting ride, and, you know, I think it says a lot about the world in so many different ways. So that has been therapeutic.

[B]

I think we're definitely gonna need some therapy, it sounds like, but invest in

[C]

some tissues, I would say. There's a lot of crying. Not always bad, but it's very emotional.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. I've got three emotional support dogs. They will get me through it.

[C]

You'll need them.

[B]

Me with my cat?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm not gonna be looking at me like a book girl. You're reacting like this over a book, but it's real to me.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Could we please have a single word spoiler for burn?

[B]

If you can do it at a single word.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We're trying not to ask too much. Yeah.

[C]

Single word spoiler.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

And it can be something that doesn't make sense until we read it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think. Okay, I'm gonna say a word, and I think people are going to draw assumptions from what word I say, but when I tell you this word has meaning on, like, at least six different levels that I can think of in the final book. And the word is father.

[B]

Oh, fuck.

[C]

There's a lot of daddy issues. We'll just put it that way. And. I don't know. We'll see.

[B]

I read those trigger warnings.

[C]

There's so many different ways in which that word carries a lot of weight.

[B]

Do you notice you just went right over that?

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[C]

We'll see.

[B]

I'm wondering if I want to ask the question that someone you can ask.

[C]

I don't. I can't promise I will answer. But you can always ask, how do

[B]

you feel about a pregnancy trope?

[C]

Okay, how do I answer this in a way that's not going to give anything up, I think.

[A]

I mean, you can give spoilers. We don't mind.

[B]

She might.

[C]

Okay, I'll give you my personal feelings on pregnancy in books.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

Like, separate from what happens in burn. I agree with people who think that a character does not have to end up married with kids to be. To have a happily ever after.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I don't think that that is the hea for every character. For some characters, they have dreamed of becoming a parent and having a big family, and for some characters, they just want to find the person they Love or they just want to achieve some personal goal, you know, they want to overcome some obstacle or whatever. So for me, the way that each character ends in burn makes sense for who they are as a person and have been consistently through the series. So I feel right about who does and doesn't end up with a child at the end based on what they have wanted for themselves previously in the series. Okay, okay.

[B]

Someone's gonna be a father. We just don't know who.

[C]

Maybe several people.

[B]

Well, there's a couple of them.

[C]

Maybe several people. I don't know. There's a lot of characters, and I think a lot of people apply the content warnings to just DM or Luther, and that's not the case. There's a lot of sibling pairs. There's a lot of parent child pairs. There's a ton of. Of familial relationships. So I think reading too much or assuming that applies to, like, the main character is not, of course.

[B]

Well, especially when we're getting several POVs, which we have a question about later. But, yeah, that's interesting. Okay. Have you heard Father Figure by Taylor Swift?

[C]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[B]

Okay. All right. That's what I wanted to know. That's what I was wondering. Maybe on one of those six fronts. Okay, Speaking of Taylor Swift, Easter eggs is the next topic. There are lots of hidden Easter eggs and moments of foreshadowing throughout the series. Many of which you've said previously are hidden in book one for book four in all of them. But, you know, we're talking about burren right now. Are there any that no one has caught on yet that you could nudge us toward for our rereads? I know you're doing the guided reread where you're gonna point some out, but, like, yeah, in case we get antsy

[C]

and read immediately, literally yesterday I sent a Screenshot of book one to my PAs, and I had highlighted a sentence, and I was like, you know, does this mean anything different now? No, absolutely not. I was like, does this hit different now? And they were all like, oh, my God. But there's a lot in book one, especially in chapter one, has so much. But there's also a very big clue. Do I wanna. Do I wanna say this? There's a pretty significant clue as to something related to Andre's death in book one that, as far as I know, no one has found, or at least if they have, they haven't mentioned it to me. To me, it felt like a dead giveaway, but apparently nobody has seen it that way.

[B]

Did you say dead giveaway on print.

[C]

I mean, when I showed it to IPAs, they were like, I would never have associated that with it, but it was like, to the point where I had to discuss it with my editor and say, is this giving way too much? Because I thought it was really obvious. But there's a pretty big thing in there. Yeah. That to me, gives away who's involved, but I don't know. We'll find out for sure and burn. You will get an answer to that for sure.

[A]

Interesting. See, my brain's doing that thing again.

[B]

Yep. I was just gonna let you talk as long as you were willing to talk.

[C]

There's a lot of stuff that, like, you have. Like, maybe you have the riddle or you have the facts, but you don't have the context yet to understand what it means. Like the line, like, give him our gift and, you know, tell him it is my command. That is an incredibly important line, but I don't think you have enough context yet to understand what it could mean. There's a few things like that where it's like, you have all the pieces. You don't have the last little thread that would help you put them all together.

[A]

This is completely off topic. It's not off topic, but off sort of the plan when it's finished and we've had Ben, would you ever come out and be like this, you missed this, you missed this? Or.

[C]

Yeah, I'd love to do that.

[B]

Do you want to come back?

[C]

I would love to do. I mean, I doubt I ever will, but it would be so fun to do, like, an annotated version, you know, director's cut.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Where I could say like this. Do you remember this? You know, and all the little things? Yeah. Because there's just so many things that I think. And that's part of what is going to make the Guided Reread really fun, is that I'm going to be able to say, like, for example, if you look at the book, and this is true, even in the indie version, it's a little different. In the indie version, it's like, even on the dedication page. But on the. There we go. If you look at the chapter separator in between, like, sections, and also in the indie version, on the dedication page, it's a ten pointed star. And if you go to the epilogue in Spark, when you see Arlie on the island, she mentions looking down and seeing a ten pointed star carved into the ground of the temple. And so these hints about this 10th kingdom or 10th realm were right in

[B]

front of us the whole time.

[C]

The whole time. You know? And it's like, there's just been so many little things like that that I can now say, like, I'm obsessed with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, have had so much meaning. And there's a really big one in particular in chapter one that it's like, unfortunately, I can't talk about it until after Burn, but, like, I mean, I guess I could. She DMs, like, thinks that this is, like, a fake fortune teller. Right. And she's like, oh, I. You know, I'm gonna find my true love, and I'll do this and I'll do that. And who we now know, it's Ursul, is like, oh, no. None of that for you, babe. And there's a reason why Ursula knew that and could say that. Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's only mildly terrifying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What I've gathered from all of this, outside of Easter Egg Queen, is that my TBR is destroyed for the rest of the year because not only am I gonna reread before I read Burn, but I'm also gonna have to reread after I read Burn.

[C]

I think everything's gonna hit different after Burn for sure.

[B]

But I love a series that can make me do that. Like that. Honestly, those are my most favorite things about books, is when a second or third or a fourth book changes and puts a whole new spin, and it's a RE experience, because. Sorry, tangent. Don't you always want to be able to reread your favorite book for the first time again? And it's sort of like that as close as you'll ever get to being able to do that when there's a new twist that just.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And I think I wrote my book for the RE readers. Like, I. I think. I hope the book is fun on a first read, but I think it comes alive on the second read when you understand, especially once you finish Burn and you go back and start over. I think you understand so much more about everything that way, and everything just gets a lot deeper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm taking notes for myself to ask you after we.

[A]

If we wanted to understand the forging magic, are there any scenes or chapters that we should reread or maybe have in the back of our minds when we're reading Burn, or before we're reading

[C]

Burn, there's a chapter very, very, very early on in Burn that I think will explain it in much more detail that will be helpful. We know that the Heartstone is, like, you know, the source of all descended magic.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that they have to use the Heartstone to sort of refresh the forging spell. And then they also use the Heartstone to, like, trap DM on the island and to kill anyone who comes onto the island. So everything is. The hearthstone is a conduit through which all the sin and magic kind of has to flow in order for them to manipulate it in their world. And so that certainly makes it an interesting element moving forward. That's all I'll say.

[B]

You've given us so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really appreciate it.

[C]

I think it's an underutilized tool, let's put it that way. Or maybe overutilized, depending on who you ask.

[B]

We're going to have so many conversations about this after Mary.

[A]

We ready off. We ready off.

[B]

So you previously mentioned that Bern will give us multiple POVs.

[C]

Eight.

[A]

Eight.

[B]

Okay. Can you give us any hints as to whose heads we might be in?

[C]

Lots of people. I don't think I've said who any of them are, so I'm trying to keep that close to my chest. I think obviously one of them is Luther, because as you've read the preview chapters, you know that Luther is one of them, and he's the one. I think that we probably. He might be the one we get the most from. Oh, I'm not sure. I'd have to look at the word count breakdown, but certainly a good chunk of the book is in his head.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

There's. What can I say? I think they're interesting choices. There's some that are. I think when people turn the page and they see a name at the top of the page, they're gonna say, what? Why are we in that? Why are we in this person's head? That doesn't make any sense. And in particular, there's one chapter that I remember that was a very controversial decision to write from a certain character's POV that a lot of people told me not to do. And I still stand by that. It was the right choice. I still think it was the right choice, but maybe someday I'll write a bonus chapter from the other one. But I was very thoughtful in who I chose, and I mostly used it as a way to step into another character's shoes that maybe might be misunderstood or maybe only understood on a superficial level. I think they're all characters that readers have pretty strong feelings about, and hopefully those chapters might deepen or challenge those pre existing feelings. Because, you know, once you're in somebody's head and you're thinking as them, it forces you to Be compassionate in a different way. And that's one of the best things about first person pov, you know? And so I tried to utilize that tool for that reason.

[B]

I cannot wait. I cannot wait. I feel like I'm gonna turn that page and be like, that's who she was talking about.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The last. I would say the last 10 chapters of the book are a wild ride. A wild ride. And my goal is with every single chapter, you're like, what the hell? What? What? What? What? Like, that's how I want people to go into the last 10 chapters of Burn, I think. Okay, we'll see. We'll see what people think.

[B]

Okay, well, on that note, now that I've broken you both perfectly sets me up for this. So you gave me the most pleasant birthday gift last year, posting on threads that you sobbed for 10 minutes to your husband, trying to tell him about a death scene that you had just written.

[C]

I hadn't even written it yet. That was the worst part, is I had just. I was in the process of beginning to write it, and I came up with a different way of how to do it that was so much more devastating. And he walked in the room at just the wrong time and saw me. And I'm like, tears are going down my face. And he's like, what's wrong? And I'm like, what if I kill this person? But I do it like this? And he just said, something's, like, wrong with you. Something's fucked up in your head, and walked away. And I'm sobbing, even affectionately, but, like, it's, you know, a much more devastating way for this person to die than I had originally planned.

[B]

Fucking great. Excuse my language. Great.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's really. Yeah, it's painful the way it happen, but I also feel so strongly that, like, it happens in the way that it was meant to and that it, like, it's the right ending for the character.

[B]

So we'll see. We'll see how. If I agree, we'll see how I feel.

[A]

How do you feel about voice note DMs just of people crying or screaming at you.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

I love it. I've got a collection fueled by reader's tears.

[C]

I have a collection of, like, sobbing reader photos. And it just brings me joy because I guarantee you, however hard you cried, I cried 10 times worse, I promise you. I actually have a video of myself writing for me the most painful scene in the book. And I knew it was gonna be painful, and I, like, videoed myself writing it, thinking I would use it as content later.

[B]

And then you're like, I can't show any of this.

[C]

So I'm like just sobbing, weeping like I couldn't breathe. I had a migraine for days afterwards. It was awful. And so I guarantee you, however painful it is for you, I promise you it was just as painful for me.

[A]

Like whenever authors say it's worse for me, I've always been like, oh no, they know what's coming. Like, they're just saying that. But now that I've written a book, turns out it is worse. It is worse for authors.

[C]

Yeah, it truly is. Because like, I have to make it happen. Like I have to actually do the thing. You know, I have to put the metaphorical dagger in their heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And especially writing like the lead ups. Like, for example, I was just rereading this the other day. Cause I'm preparing the recaps of the books. And I was rereading the scenes of DM and her father right before he dies. And especially that moment, that really sweet moment they have where he's joking with Taryn and they just have this adorable little moment. And I had to write that knowing in 15 pages this man is gonna be dead on the floor.

[B]

I sobbed so hard. Like I'm getting flashbacks. Same, same.

[C]

And so all of those moments, writing the sad stuff, knowing before the characters do how devastating it is, it's really rough.

[B]

Oh yeah. So I almost don't want to even ask this. I don't even want to ask this. But I do want to ask it first. The funeral invites traumatic, by the way that are going out.

[C]

Wait till you get to the real thing.

[B]

So that was. This was going to be my question. Is it for the same person, this person, this unknown death scene that we were referring to?

[C]

This one is. No. I mean, what? No. I don't want people to necessarily expect that there's a formal funeral. I mean, it sort of symbolizes that there's a lot of people who die and there's a lot of dealing with the grief of loss.

[B]

Okay. Symbolic in that way.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of time for funerals because people are dying left and right. So.

[B]

Okay, well then that makes my next question really hard to answer. Maybe easier to answer. I don't know. But specifically pertaining to the person whom you came up with this especially devastating end for. I know you can't tell us who it is, but is there a way like that you can give a hint? Sorry, we're asking so much today of like, who it is, but maybe we won't, like, get it immediately. Like, it doesn't have to be obvious.

[A]

Nope.

[C]

Nope. You're gonna be devastated in the moment. Nope.

[B]

You're like, I'm not taking. I'm not. You already went through the trauma of writing it. You're gonna make us go through.

[C]

I think I. You know, I'm gonna. I love to mislead as well a little bit. So I think there's gonna be a lot of clues that a lot of different people might kick the bucket. And some of them will, some of them won't.

[B]

Well, okay. Is there someone you can tell us it's not.

[C]

No.

[B]

Okay. I had to try. I had to.

[C]

No one is safe. No one is safe. Okay. I think that's the right mindset to go into Burn with is.

[B]

Yeah. Probably no one is safe and.

[C]

But there's quite a few losses, unfortunately.

[A]

Okay. The stakes need to be high.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

You can't have a war and not have lost. It's a necessary part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Even though for some of them, the deaths themselves were devastating, I feel good about where everyone ends up, including the people we lose. Like, I feel like it was the right way to end their arc. And I didn't kill them just for emotional impact. I killed them because it was the right ending for them. So I think that every character ends where they should. Right.

[B]

Sometimes that makes it hurt worse.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Does. Obviously, Burn of the Everflame is the final book in the series. Is it the final book? Is there any plan to write in this same world?

[C]

Again, there's no current plan. I generally don't like spinoffs. I like a self contained world. And I don't particularly love a world that has a bunch of different spinoffs. So I always said from the beginning, I will never write a spinoff of this series. Having said that, against my will, my brain is plotting one. There's one character in particular, and if I told you it was, you would be like. Like who? It's not somebody major, but there's a character in particular that I think following this character into the future and seeing what their life looks like decades down the line past the events of Burn would be really interesting. And because of their unique position in the world when the book ends. And so that is sort of in the corner of my mind, like, oh, that would be a really cool story to write. And then it would allow me to sort of revisit where some of the surviving characters are, you know, as they age and as their lives develop. Beyond the war. So I think I've woven in potential titles for a future spinoff into the book.

[B]

Oh, girl, you're done for it.

[C]

Maybe someday. Maybe someday I will release a book and not tell anyone it's connected to the series and just see who picks up on it from the title. I don't know. We'll see. But it certainly will not be the next thing I write or the next thing after that. Like, I need a break. So it would be much more in the future, but we'll see. I don't know.

[A]

You are an auto buy author for us.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Without a doubt.

[B]

Regardless of a universe or not, though, I will just be ecstatic if you ever did choose to write again in it. So especially if it's got Luthor, even just like on, it would be really

[C]

fun to have a moment where you come back and sort of revisit and see them briefly on page. But I don't. I've put these characters through so much trauma that I don't really want to put them through more trauma. I want to let them rest and have a happily ever after for the ones that survive. You know, for the ones that survive.

[A]

And a happy afterlife for the others.

[C]

Exactly, Exactly. Amazing afterlife for the others. So I don't want to disturb that piece for them, but I do think that there's more. Like, this world doesn't stop becoming interesting once Burn ends, so it would be cool to revisit that.

[B]

Love. Well, I'm already going to be like. That would make a really good title. That would make a really good title. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. The release date is not the only huge announcement we got recently. You also shared that the Kindred's Curse saga is in the adaptation process for a TV series.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Congratulations on that. First of all, how do you feel about it?

[C]

I'm trying very hard to be very measured about it and to not let myself get too, like, I don't want to get my hopes up because there's so many books get optioned, and of those, like, only a tiny percentage move into production, and of those, only a percentage actually make it to screen. And of those, only a tiny percentage get more than one season. So, like, there's so many places at which this could, like, fall short of what I hope it can become. And so I'm trying to just really enjoy the now of it and enjoy each stage as I'm in it for what it is. So actually, this morning I got an email from my showrunner. Heidi with a script for episode two. And I'm just so excited to read that and work on that together and see what we can make that. Because the process of episode one was so much fun. And we'll just take it one step at a time, and we'll hope for the best. I just. I really hope it makes it to screen. My fingers are crossed.

[B]

Me too.

[C]

Even if it doesn't, it's been a really fun process for me.

[B]

Oh, I bet.

[A]

I can imagine. Have you got any? Obviously, we're manifesting the success.

[B]

If it makes it there, yes.

[A]

Are there any sticking points that you would have for the adaptation?

[C]

The thing is, you as an author have very little control, like, almost none. Some people might be able to negotiate that. I was negotiating with Disney. Disney has all the leverage you could possibly have. And it was very much a take it or leave it situation. And especially coming off of. I mean, this is a lot of the same team that worked on the ACOTAR adaptation that didn't end up happening. And so there was a lot of, I think, feeling from that that they were just very nervous about taking on a book with a big fandom and all of the pressure that would come with that and all of the expectations, like the inability to have the freedom they needed to make a show, because what makes a good book and what makes a good show are very different things. So I think they were really nervous about that, and as a result, were very hesitant to give me very much, you know, anything. And what has been great is that my showrunner, Heidi, loves the book so much, and she cares so much about the fans and the. The core of the story and keeping true to what the story is, that she has become the advocate for that and I don't have to be. And she cares so, so much about keeping the story, the heart of the story, true to what it is in the books. And some of the superficial stuff might change and some of the story mechanics might change, but the message of the story, the heart of who each character is. She cares a lot about preserving that. She runs everything by me. She takes my feedback into consideration to, like, an incredible degree. But I also feel like if she didn't, if she just said, I'm gonna do this on my own, I would trust her to do that because she's so thoughtful about it. So that's been really a lovely part of it.

[A]

Oh, like, that's incredible. Like, really incredible.

[C]

And at some point, I will have to be cut out of the process, because the reality is, unless I give up writing and move to LA and sit in a writer's room. There's only so much feedback I can have. You know, things move fast. We're in that position now where it's much more conceptual and we're talking about the world and the story and how we're gonna tell it. And being able to be really heavily involved at that stage is setting a great foundation to move forward, hopefully in the future.

[B]

Yay. All fingers crossed.

[A]

Yes. And tires. Okay, so finally, and not that you haven't given us more than enough already, but is there anything else you would like to share with us about Burn of the Everflame or anything else that we haven't asked or touched upon, if

[B]

that's possible, that we haven't touched on something?

[A]

It's been so quick.

[C]

I don't think so. I mean, I hope people enjoy it. I hope they enjoy being back in the world. I definitely encourage people to reread the first three books if they can going into it, but if they can't, don't let that be a barrier. I'm gonna have some very comprehensive recaps. I mean, the one for Glow is like 17 pages. So when I say comprehensive, it's truly, if you need to know it, going into Bird, it's in the recap. And so hopefully that won't keep people from jumping into it because I think it's going to be a really fun thing for us all to experience together and hopefully have lots to talk about. You know, not just, like, to geek out about what happens in the book, but also to start some conversations about the world. So I'm just really excited for that conversation to begin very soon.

[B]

Well, and as I just have to say from readers, we appreciate so much how interactive you are. The fact that you're making these recaps, the fact that you're doing this guided reread where you're pointing out the things that like. Like, we wanna make sure we appreciate the attention to detail you've put through the books. And what better way to be doing that with you? It's so special. I don't know that another author has done that. And I love if maybe someone has, but I love the precedent that it could set with the visibility that you also have, too, and that connection between the authors and.

[C]

Oh, I hope so. I'm so excited about it. Cause, you know, like I mentioned, this is a really lonely industry. And as authors, we spend so much time just sitting by ourselves and we don't get to talk about our books to a ton of people who understand them. I mean, I could talk about my books with other authors, but they will never understand them as intimately as the readers do. So just getting to have that time to like talk about the books, as a fan of the books, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

With the readers and getting to like re experience them together, I think it's just gonna be like the most fun thing for both of us. And I can't wait.

[B]

Yes, I can't wait either.

[C]

I'm hyped about it. Ready?

[A]

So excited.

[B]

Well, Pen, thank you so much for chatting with us today and for the amount of time that you so graciously gave us. It truly has been such an honor. We admire you so much. The honor is mine.

[A]

We really do.

[C]

Thank you for caring so much about the books and for, you know, talking about them and supporting them. It really means a lot to me.

[A]

Oh, it is our absolute pleasure for

[B]

the impact that the series has had. It's the least that I could do to try and repay some of that. Truly.

[C]

Thank you. I appreciate it a lot.

[B]

Listeners, we've linked Pen Cole's socials down in the show notes so you can follow along and stay up to date on the series. Pen is also hosting a guided reread starting July 13th leading up to Burns release on September 8th, and we will link that info also down in the show notes. If this is your first time listening, welcome. I'm Hannah Michelle Romantasy, fangirl and aspiring author and you're listening to the Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast Author interview series where occasionally I interview amazing authors like Pen Cole, Hannah Nicole Mayer, Stacy Heughan, Shane Presley, Hazel McBride, Parker, Lennox Fray Grenwich and more. I love how long the list is getting.

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

I created Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast in the summer of 2024 out of my deep love and appreciation of the genre and the and it's grown into a small team which today's guest co host Mary is part of. We have a completed season Deep Diving Fourth Wing through the Lens of Iron Flame and are also starting a new interview series called Dear Fantasy Community here on Dear Fantasy Reader, where we bring on other industry experts that are part of getting these books into our hands. To the pod.

[A]

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribing, leaving a review or simply sharing us with your fellow Romancy readers goes a long way.

[B]

You can find more info about our previous and upcoming seasons episode and events calendar, other author interviews, our contact form and more on our website dearfantasyreader.com, comma, also linked down in the show notes.

[A]

We'd love to hear from you. So send us your thoughts, tag us on Instagram, or come fangirl with us over your favourite fantasy books in our free Discord chat.

[B]

Until next time, dearest fantasy readers, may your chapters be spicy, your book boyfriends morally gray and devoted AI death, and your TBR organized just enough to justify one or three more pre orders. Or four. Because now we're gonna burn. I love her. Like, I cannot properly articulate how deeply I admire her.

[A]

No, that was one of the most incredible experience.

[B]

Three hours of your life. Yeah.

[A]

But honestly, it's up there with the ERAS tour. Like, the same length of time. That was so impactful.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, you're so right. Three hours. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, oh, well, with her mention of father figure, I think she understands that impact.

[A]

I think so. Oh, there were so many times that I was like, I could cry.

[B]

And then all the information she gave, like, I was not expecting her to be that forthcoming. She wasn't lying when she was like, I'm ready to talk to readers about this book.

[A]

We are ready to listen. Tell us everything.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

That was like, thank you so much for letting me do this. That was the most amazing experience.

[B]

You share so much of my love for this series. So it's really special to me to have gotten to share this episode with this interview with you.

[A]

Thank you. And, like, you are the reason that I read the Kindred Curse saga, so it was your recommendation, so thank you.

[B]

Wait, I feel like there's a trend going on here. I think you said that to Hazel too, about a fateforged fire. And was it not Riftborn and Dustbound?

[C]

Yeah. For Parker and Brie.

[A]

Well, now I'm potentially a fateful gin. Fire would have been on my radar anyway.

[B]

Yes, for sure would have in the uk.

[A]

Yeah. But the Kindred Curse saga, I think I'd seen the covers and was like, do I need to put another series on my tbr? And then you said that I did, and I absolutely did. Yeah.

[B]

And shout out to my Instagram friend Katie, the Kindle Queen, because she is the one that DMed me. She's a listener. Back in the early days of Dear fantasy reader, she DMed me and she was like, I have a series. I think that you're gonna love it. And she convinced me to read Kindred's Kurt saga. And oh, my goodness, that was when the podcast was baby only months old. Thank you, Pen.

[A]

Thank you, Pen. Like, I would go to battle for her.

[B]

Oh, 1,000%. I think we're gonna have to with burn. She's gonna make us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I can't wait.

[A]

I know. I'm so excited. But I'm not ready. But I'm so ready.

[B]

But I'm not also not ready.

[A]

There's a lot. I've got a lot of emotions.

[B]

Thank you guys for listening.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

We can't wait to be traumatized together for burn of the Everflame.

[A]

Yay. Emotional devastation.

[B]

This.