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Dear Fantasy Reader
Venin Theories: Origins, Motivations & Secrets of the Empyrean's Greatest Threat
00:21:18
Welcome to Dear Dragon Reader, a special series from Dear Fantasy Reader podcast! Hosted by Karly, each episode dives deep into a specific topic from Rebecca Yarros’ Empyrean Series. In this episode, Karly unpacks the misunderstood lore...
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Welcome to the Dear Dragon Readers series segment of Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast. These episodes were originally part of the Dragon Readers Podcast, but we have since merged. My name is Carly, and in each of these episodes we dive deep into a single topic from the Empyrean series. This week's episode will be on the Venin. Before we get into today's episode, I want to give a quick content warning. This episode will have spoilers for Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. If you have not read those books in their entirety, this podcast is not safe to listen to. There is also a content warning. This episode may have adult language and themes discussed, so use your own discretion. Okay, now we've got that out of the way. I cannot wait to get into today's episode with you guys because let me tell you, this subject matter was absolutely a beast to organize. First, we're going to dive into the origin of the Venin and their motivations, because these two things are just so inextricably linked that you can't talk about one without talking about the other. So the fables give us three possibilities for how the Venin came to be. The first possibility we are given actually blames the dragons for how Venin came to be. It says that the first riders who learned to bond with dragons and how those bonds could turn on the rider if they tried to consume too much power. It almost sounds like it's talking about burnout, but in this instance, it's them becoming Venin. There's even a quote in 4th Wing that alludes to this. It says, in Navar's 600 year history of Unification. I've never read of a single writer losing their soul to keep their powers. The dragons keep us from that. The next line from the fables says others talk of a great evil that spread spread across the land as man became corrupted by dark magic and turned into creatures known as the Venin, who created flocks of winged creatures called Wyvern and scourged the land of all magic in their thirst for more power. Now this sounds very similar to what we know of Venon so far. In Iron Flame, it talks about them having a thirst for more power, draining the land of all the magic. It mentions Wyvern. And this is the first time that we know of in the fables that they have been referred to as Venin. But I do want to point out one difference. It says that the great evil that spread across the land as man became corrupted. It talks about it almost as if it's some sort of plague, some sort of illness. That spread across, that was uncontrollable, and that perhaps people did not have a choice in turning Venin. And the last fable states another talks about the dangers of wielding power from the ground instead of the skies, as one could easily start drawing magic from the earth and eventually be driven mad. This again is talking about themes we have seen drawing magic from the ground instead of the skies. We see Zaden doing this at the end of Iron Flame. And when it speaks of being driven mad. This is not the only time we hear someone speaking about this, except the other time is when it involves dragons. Sloane tells Violet that when dragons bond in the direct familial line, that it has an equal chance of causing a second signet or. Or madness. The next part of the fables we learn from Violet because she is quoting it to Xaden. She says one brother bonded to griffin, one to dragon, and when the third grew jealous, he drew directly from the source, losing his soul and waging war on the other two. But what I find interesting is when we get an excerpt from the fables directly later on. It says, but it was the third brother who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price. And what I find important about this is that the third brother is used to describe both the brother who turned Venon and also the brother who commanded the sky to vanquish his jealous sibling. While it's possible that Violet was just misremembering the fable when she quoted it to Xaden, I think it's more likely that the brother that turned Venon did not do it out of jealousy. I think it is very likely that some aspects of these fables are accurate, but also that some of them have been written to make the dragons and the Griffins look like the heroes of the story and not potentially the cause of the problem in the first place. And this is where we start to get into the motivations of the Venin, why they became Venon in the first place, and why they are now recruiting and waging war against Navarre. And when discussing the Venants motivations which are the villain in this story, it is important to remember that the best villains are the heroes of their. And I think to some extent the Venin did start out as the heroes, but over time have become the villain. Zaden says in Forswing, did you ever once stop to think that sometimes you can start out on the right side of a war and end up on the wrong one? And I think this is also what has happened with the Venin. And I think if you want to look at a roadmap for what happened with the Venin, what their initial internal motivation was, and how it has gone so far off the rails, you need to look to the Marvel show WandaVision. And I know that probably sounds absolutely bonkers, but I have a good reason. So stay with me for just a moment. Rebecca Yarros is a fan of Marvel. There is a moment in WandaVision that is eerily similar to a theme in 4th Wing. Just a heads up, this will have spoilers for WandaVision, but I will try to keep them as out of context as possible so that these spoilers hopefully stay as mild as possible. If you have not watched WandaVision. In WandaVision, there is a quote that says only the witch who casts the runes can use her magic in a given space. And in this moment we find out that in a space where a witch has cast runes, she is the only one who can use her power. And this is eerily similar to the wards in Navarre. The wards in Navarre use runes to make it so that only the dragons within their space can use their magic. And there are moments when Wanda is wielding magic as the Scarlet Witch and her hands turn black and her eyes turn red. And this is so reminiscent of how the dark wielders are described. And one of the major themes in WandaVision is how when you have knowledge withheld from you, you can be turned into a weapon unknowingly and be hurting the very people you should be fighting for. Wanda has to become the Scarlet Witch out of necessity and loss, to protect her family, to protect her loved ones, and out of grief and rage for the loss she has already sustained. And I think this is going to mirror what happened to the Venin and why they became Venin in the first place. And I also think we are going to see Violet's character arc be very similar to the Venin. Violet has already had the realization that by knowledge being kept from her, she has been turned into a weapon against people she should have been protecting. And we know Rebecca Yarros wrote about the last half to a third of Onyx Storm to Taylor Swift's Tortured Poets Department and that she often listened to who's Afraid of Little Old Me? And there is a line in one of the Avengers movies from Wanda that is so reminiscent of this song. There is a moment when the villain tells Wanda, I don't even know who you are. And she responds with, you Will. And I believe this is essentially what happened with the Venin, they were just people. They were going up against dragons and griffins, and they were nothing to them. And now the dragons and the griffin know who they are. And I think Violet's arc in this is similar, where she has becoming known to the Venin. There is a moment at the end of Wandavision where someone tells her they'll never know what you did for them. And she says it wouldn't change how they see me. And I think the Venin had a similar origin story hundreds of years ago. That whatever they did was for the good of humankind. And at this point, that has been lost to history. And that over time, they have just become corrupted and pushed to want more and more power and I think revenge. We are set to believe that the dragons and the Griffins are the heroes of this story against the Venin. But I believe that the dragons and the Griffins were likely part of the reason why the Venin became Venon in the first place. Because, let's remember, magic likes all things in balance. And what protection did the humans have from the dragons, who saw them simply as snacks or hindrances? If they didn't have magic, they had no way to protect themselves against the dragons and the griffin. It even alludes to this. In Fourth Wing. There is a quote that says, it was never our continent. From the very beginning, it was theirs, and we were simply allowed to live there. And according to Taran, he believes that dragons bonded riders because of Venin. He tells Violet that the first writers approached the Dens hundreds of years ago in order to stop the greater threat, the Venin. But the fables allude to people turning Venon out of jealousy. And so both of those things cannot be true. I believe that the origins of the Venin have a few likely scenarios. The first possibility comes from the fables where it talks about evil spreading across the land. It talks about it almost as if it is an illness. And I am wondering if the first people who turned Venin did not turn Venin out of choice, if it was some sort of sickness that they sustained. The other possibility, I believe, has to do with the hubris of the dragons. I believe it's possible that when they first started bonding riders, that they either bonded people within the direct familial line and people went mad and became Venin or something within their efforts to create wards, accidentally created Venin that would tie back into the fables where an evil spread across the land. So maybe the first people didn't turn Venon out of choice, but they turned Venon because of some mistake with creation of the wards. And perhaps the dragons originally only wanted wards to keep the Griffin out, whether it was sheer territorialism or to protect their hatching grounds. And the third likely origin, I believe, is that people became Venon to protect themselves against dragons. And then dragons voluntarily bonded people who were not Venin in order to fight the Venin. But in all of these scenarios, the Venin were originally the victim. And through the gain of absolute pure power, they have become corrupted. And now we have the Venin's current day motivations. Why are they waging this war against Navarre and why are they waging it now? I believe whatever happened hundreds of years ago with the original origin of the Venin has left a need for revenge against the dragons. And I do believe it is more specifically against the dragons and Navarre than it is against the Griffins and poor Emil. And this makes sense if you look at their behavior in Iron Flame. They skip over cities in Poromil in order to set themselves up strategically to go specifically after Navarre and the hatching grounds. And you may think it's simply because the Venin want the hatching grounds, so they need the hatching grounds more than anything else. And while I do think they need the hatching grounds, I don't think that is the ultimate goal or end game for the Venin. And I think the Venin in fact tell Violet this themself. At the end of Iron Flame, when Violet encounters the Vennon named Winn during the battle at Basgaith, that Vennon talks about how by turning Violet over, she will be rewarded by her sage and that she will be given the hatching grounds as a gift. And if that is the prize for getting Violet, then the ultimate goal isn't truly the hatching grounds. And while I think the Venon need both Violet and Zaden, I don't think they are the ultimate goal. I think they are simply tools that the Ven in order to get what they truly want. Now let's get into the timeline of the Vennet and why this is all happening now. And I believe that this timeline for this war against Novar ramped up and started getting put into place 50 years ago. @ one point, Xaden tells Violet that he believes they are 50 years too late to this war. And it is also mentioned that it's within the last 50 years that they realize that the Venin are no longer coming out of the Barrens, that they are now taking recruits and training people. And what do we know that happened 50 years ago, Sigeil's first rider, Zayden's grandfather, he allegedly died in the quadrant. However, it's important to note that riders are not supposed to start families and get married until after they are out of the quadrant. So if he did not survive the quadrant, I think it's worth asking when did he have a child? And if he did survive the quadrant and flee, it's worth asking why? I think it is very possible that Zaden's grandfather was also an intic and realized that he was going to be killed for the signet he manifested. And while we don't know for sure, I believe the grandfather is on Zaden's father's side of the family, his paternal grandfather. And that is because if he was a Ryerson, he almost certainly had knowledge of Venon already. In Iron Flame it states Ryerson House has never been breached by army. It survived countless sieges and three full out assaults before falling under the flame of the very dragons it existed to serve. And let's not forget that Ryerson House was the one entrusted with the ribstad chests which were almost certainly designed to hold Venon. And if the grandfather is Zaden's paternal grandfather, he would be tearish and would have knowledge of runes and could return this knowledge to the Venin so that they could begin making Wyvern again. And the Wyvern are a new appearance in Fourth Wing. At the end we find out that they have only known about them for the past few months. And this connection makes even more sense when you think about the nightmares that are happening in Iron Flame. Somehow both Xaden and Violet are having nightmares from the Venon. And it seems that at least some of the nightmares Violet is having, she is slipping into Xaden's nightmares. And this is because at the end of Iron Flame, the Venin that they refer to as the Sage, which we later find out is a general that Zaden knows that he is coming for him, specifically that he is waiting for Zaden. And then the conversation Zaden and the Venin have at the end of Iron Flame is the Venon reiterating all of the warnings that he had given Zaden in his nightmares, which are the same ones Violet remembers in her nightmare, which may have actually been Zaden's, because when she had that specific nightmare with that specific messaging, she was sleeping next to Xaden. And I think it's possible she slipped into his dreams through their bond. And it's also worth noting that this particular nightmare is when the description of the Venom changes for Violet. They go from being described as being very pale to tan. And it is also when Violet's sensory experience in this nightmare changes. The Venin touch her for the first time, and she can smell their breath, which is odd, because you don't typically have smells in dreams. And while some think the connection to the Venn through the nightmares is through Naylin, Taryn's previous writer, I think it's through Siegales, her previous writer, Zaden's grandfather. I think the Venin are using that connection to communicate directly with Zaden. And while I'm not exactly sure why the Venin want Violet and Zaden, I think it likely has something to do with their signets. We know that one of the Venon in history had the ability to wield Shadows, and they used it to take out the King of Poromil. And there have been a couple of references that Violet and Zaden's combined signet powers could be a problem for leadership because they are just too powerful. Imogen tells Violet, on your own, you're both capable of terrifying things with those signets together. You're a fucking menace. And in addition to their combined signet, I think there is something specific about Violet that they want that she does not realize about herself. And it has something to do with her hair. I think that is a signal to them that she has some sort of ability that they need or want or some sort of connection to the venom that just has not been made apparent yet that they still need. Let's not forget that Taryn told Violet that he knows not only who she is, but what she is. And it's the what that has me concerned for why the Venin might want Violet. And whatever the reason for Violet's hair, Rebecca Yarrow said in an interview that it was going to be difficult for Violet to come to terms with. So my guess is because it has some sort of connection to the Venin. Let's switch gears for a moment and talk about the lures that Navarre uses to attract the Venin at Ressen, at the end of Fourth Wing. We know very little about these lures, about who made them, why they were made, what they're using them for. But I have a few guesses for who made them. If I had to guess, it would have been made by Felix, because he's the one that made that orb for Violet. He's the only one we know who seems to engineer things like this. And we don't know how long Nevarra has had them. But my guess is, if it was Felix. It obviously had to be before he left, which would have been over five years ago. And what they are using the lures for, my guess, is to capture Venin. And that could be for a couple of reasons. To experiment on them. To either figure out an easier way to kill them or to figure out a way to cure them. Because we have that missive from Nolan to Lilith saying that they have not found any method of a cure, only control. And while everyone assumes that is specifically about Jack, we don't know how old that missive is. It doesn't have a date. So it's possible that this has been going on for a while, that they have been trying to figure this out. It's also possible that they wanted to capture Venon to get that poison that they use that disconnects riders from their dragons so that they can recreate it and also create an antidote. And while Violet speculates that they created that serum specifically for Jack, we don't know for sure that that's why they created it. Only that it's a newer development because they didn't start using it on the cadets until Violet's second year. I also think that it's possible that Navarre was using those lures to draw Venn to cities in Poro Emile to cause more problems for Poro Emile to keep them away from their outposts. One other item I wanted to to discuss is the connection between the Venin, the dreams and the serum. And that is because Violet notices that the Venin has a distinctly sweet smell to their breath in the dream. Which is an odd thing to notice and to point out. But also the cure for the serum that disconnects them from their dragon also has a sweet taste to it. I think there's potential for there to be connection between these two things because the Venin are the ones that had the poison that disconnects spiders from their dragon. And so I think we're going to find out that there is some odd connection between why the venom's breath smells sweet and why the cure to the serum tastes sweet. Okay, that is going to wrap up this week's episode on the Venin. Thank you for making it this far through. Next week's episode is going to be on dragons and Wyvern. And I'm also going to get into why some of the dragon's breath seems to smell odd and why those dragons seem to be connected to Venin. If you have any thoughts, questions Theor, Fourth Wing or Iron Flame, you can find me on my bookstagram account. Ookishisbetter hi, I'm Chris Gethard, and I'm.
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