Episode 2: The Congressman

Summary

Deep Cover: Episode 2 - "The Congressman"

Release Date: August 19, 2024

Introduction

In the second episode of Deep Cover's miniseries titled "Deep Cover: George Santos," host Jake Halpern delves deep into the enigmatic life of George Santos, the former Republican Congressman from New York. Santos, once celebrated for his compelling life stories and credentials, now faces a criminal trial amid revelations that much of his personal narrative was fabricated. Producer Amy Gaines McQuade teams up with journalists and insiders to peel back the layers of deception surrounding Santos, exploring his rise to power, the double life he led, and the impending legal battles.

Initial Exposure and Media Scrutiny

The episode opens with the first interactions between Neysa Woomer, Santos' communications director, and the media. Mark Cisano, a seasoned reporter from Newsday and author of "The Lying, Hustling, Grifting, Stealing and Very American Legend of George Santos," provides an in-depth look into his investigative journey.

Neysa Woomer [02:14]: "That was the first day I saw him in person. I remember we were walking through the Cannon House office building and you could hear a pin drop because people were like, that's George Santos."

The intense media fascination with Santos began mere weeks after his exposure, with reporters and cameras persistently surrounding his office.

Mark Cisano [03:12]: "Their first day is the same first day. And the press are also camped outside the office on that first day. And they remain outside the office even as the weeks drag on. They're not really losing interest in the George Santos story."

Preparing for a Public Image

Neysa Woomer describes the challenges of preparing Santos for a major interview amidst growing allegations against him. The task was compounded by the constant emergence of new stories that contradicted Santos' public persona.

Mark Cisano [04:03]: "The press is looking into a bunch of allegations that have come to light. And one of those stories is that Santos had faced multiple evictions in New York while also claiming publicly that he was a landlord. So there's an inherent contradiction there."

Santos' attempts to maintain his public image were met with increasing scrutiny, forcing Neysa and his team to continuously address inconsistencies.

Neysa Woomer [06:37]: "It's just like, even though I was with him for five months, it probably felt like 500 years at that point."

Discrepancies in Santos' Personal Narratives

A significant focus of the episode is Santos' portrayal of his mother, Fatima Devolder, and the inconsistencies surrounding her story. Santos claimed that his mother survived the September 11 attacks by escaping the South Tower of the World Trade Center and later succumbed to cancer linked to her exposure at Ground Zero. However, investigative reporting uncovered conflicting information.

Neysa Woomer [11:36]: "She got out of the building? Yes, she got out of the building."

Mark Cisano [16:46]: "The real story of George Santos starts in Queens. The family did not have a lot of money. You know, Santos says he grew up in abject poverty, and that appears to be true."

Further scrutiny revealed that official records did not support Santos' claims about his mother's employment and her presence during the 9/11 attacks.

Fatima Devolder [19:46]: "No campaign finance records show any evidence of her donating. She does not appear to have voted in any election in New York or elsewhere. She also does not appear to be a citizen, at least according to her own immigration records. So totally not, you know, not the story that he was telling."

Mark Cisano's Investigative Breakthroughs

Mark Cisano's investigative prowess shines as he uncovers the murky details of Santos' stories. His research extended to visiting Brazil to verify family histories and delving into public records that debunked Santos' claims.

Mark Cisano [18:23]: "You've hit on one of the first key discrepancies that people pick up on."

Cisano emphasizes the pattern of Santos blending truth with fiction, making it challenging to distinguish fact from fabrication.

Mark Cisano [19:56]: "So pretty quickly, Mark breaks this down and he's able to say, so much of the story that Santos tells about his mother just doesn't check out."

The Tragic Story of Fatima Devolder

The episode poignantly explores the relationship between Santos and his mother, highlighting genuine moments of vulnerability amidst the web of lies.

Fatima Devolder [23:02]: "They seem to have been very close, and also, in the way that many close relationships work, also kind of butted heads a lot."

Santos' financial struggles juxtaposed with his fabricated narratives raise questions about his true motivations.

Jake Halpern [24:26]: "It's just like Mark said, the pebble that becomes the mountain."

A particularly damning revelation involves Santos collecting funds from his church community to cover funeral expenses, which were never paid to the funeral home.

Mark Cisano [25:00]: "Specifically one story around Fatima's funeral... the funeral home was never paid their debt for Fatima's service."

This incident underscores the depth of Santos' deceit, transforming personal tragedies into tools for manipulation.

Patterns of Deceit and Lack of Accountability

The episode highlights Santos' strategic lies aimed at garnering public sympathy and political advantage. Cisano draws parallels between Santos' fabrications and the broader implications for communities he sought to represent.

Mark Cisano [34:28]: "As much as I wanna stay objective and remove myself from the reporting, I can't forget the fact that this is a huge part of my life and my family and our legacy... it's something that is taking people's lives and destroyed families."

Despite the mounting evidence against him, Santos continues to uphold his false narratives, leaving many to question his endgame.

Mark Cisano [40:17]: "When you think you have reached the truth, there is usually a catch."

Conclusion and Future Implications

"The Congressman" concludes with reflections on the potential consequences Santos may face as investigations intensify. Despite the gravity of his actions, accountability remains elusive, leaving both the public and insiders in a state of ongoing suspense.

Mark Cisano [41:16]: "Coming up next time on Deep Cover. George Santos."

Neysa Woomer expresses regret over being entangled in Santos' deceit, highlighting the personal toll of his manipulations.

Neysa Woomer [41:47]: "I'm furious because I spent some of my friends that I asked to support George. I mean, all of them, they know me, so they're, you know, and they were hoodwinked to know that I was hoodwinked."

Key Takeaways

• George Santos meticulously crafted a false personal narrative to gain political favor.
• Investigative reporting by Mark Cisano and others has systematically dismantled many of Santos' claims.
• The strained relationship between Santos and his mother, interwoven with deceit, reveals a complex character struggling with truth and identity.
• Despite evidence of dishonesty, Santos has yet to face substantial accountability, raising concerns about political integrity and public trust.

Notable Quotes

• Neysa Woomer [02:14]: "That was the first day I saw him in person. I remember we were walking through the Cannon House office building and you could hear a pin drop because people were like, that's George Santos."

• Mark Cisano [16:46]: "The real story of George Santos starts in Queens. The family did not have a lot of money. You know, Santos says he grew up in abject poverty, and that appears to be true."

• Fatima Devolder [19:46]: "No campaign finance records show any evidence of her donating. She does not appear to have voted in any election in New York or elsewhere."

• Mark Cisano [25:00]: "Specifically one story around Fatima's funeral... the funeral home was never paid their debt for Fatima's service."

• Neysa Woomer [41:47]: "I'm furious because I spent some of my friends that I asked to support George... they were hoodwinked to know that I was hoodwinked."

Final Thoughts

Deep Cover: Episode 2 - "The Congressman" offers a compelling exploration of George Santos' deceptive strategies and the profound impact of his lies on those around him. Through meticulous reporting and personal testimonies, the episode paints a detailed portrait of a politician whose quest for power has led him down a path of relentless deceit and moral ambiguity.

Transcript

[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Neysa Woomer]

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[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

Used to treat adults and children 12.

[Fatima Devolder]

Years of age and older who weigh.

[Mark Cisano]

At least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms.

[Jake Halpern]

With moderate to severe eczema, also called.

[Mark Cisano]

Atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin.

[Jake Halpern]

Or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new.

[Mark Cisano]

Or worsening eye problems.

[Jake Halpern]

You should not receive a live vaccine.

[Mark Cisano]

When treated with Ebglis before starting Epglis. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief?

[Neysa Woomer]

Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit eglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

[Mark Cisano]

So Jake, yeah, let me take you back to January 2023. It's a couple weeks after Jorge Santos has been exposed and he shows up in Washington, dc.

[Neysa Woomer]

That was the first day I saw him in person. I remember we were walking through the Cannon House office building and you could hear a pin drop because people were like, that's George Santos.

[Jake Halpern]

That's.

[Neysa Woomer]

Did you see it? That was George Santos.

[Mark Cisano]

This is Neysa Woomer. She was George Santos, communications director. You heard from her in our first episode. She was actually hired back in December of 2022. And her first day, and the first day she would actually meet Santos in person came in January.

[Neysa Woomer]

The amount of reporters and cameras that were outside of our office, it reminded me of something that you would see like back in the 90s, like when Princess Diana would show up somewhere.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow. This was Naesa's first day on the job as the communications director, whatever. But it was also George Santos, basically first day. I mean, the scandal's happening, but he hasn't even started his tenure as a congressman or he's just starting.

[Mark Cisano]

Correct? Yeah. Their first day is the same first day. And the press are also camped outside the office on that first day. And they remain outside the office even as the weeks drag on. They're not really losing interest in the Jorge Santos story.

[Neysa Woomer]

I've had multiple meetings with, you know, individual reporters and they're all saying the same thing. We can't leave until he speaks to the press. Until we get a soundbite, we have to stay. And I said, well, we're going to fix this.

[Mark Cisano]

So she realizes, okay, well, this is not dying down. We're going to book him on some big name show. He's gonna do a long sit down interview with a respected journalist and we're gonna prep him for that. And we're gonna spend this time before we have the interview even set up, we're gonna spend time prepping.

[Neysa Woomer]

The hard part was getting him to sit down and prep. He was very, just all over the place. And so I put out like this little list of like the 15 lies that I've already heard in the news. Because as I said at this time, it was just, you know, obviously his background from, you know, work, family, religion, and then the new stuff that was popping up.

[Jake Halpern]

What are the burning questions or the burning issues at this particular moment that people want to ask him?

[Mark Cisano]

At this point, the press is looking into a bunch of allegations that have come to light. And one of those stories is that Santos had faced multiple evictions in New York while also claiming publicly that he was a landlord. So there's a inherent contradiction there that.

[Jake Halpern]

Seems like so telling that he's being evicted and yet he's claiming to be a landlord. That's such a stark contrast yeah, there's.

[Mark Cisano]

Also new info and new allegations coming out basically on a daily basis.

[Amy Brown]

A New Jersey veteran says that the.

[Mark Cisano]

Congressman organized a fundraiser for his dying.

[Amy Brown]

Service dog back in 2016, only to.

[Neysa Woomer]

Pocket the money himself.

[Fatima Devolder]

In Brazil, a local performer claims Santos was Katara Ravash and that he once performed as a drag queen, something the New York congressman strongly denies.

[Mark Cisano]

Patch media reports, quote, two former Santos roommates told Patch several items went missing while they lived with Santos, including phones, expensive dress shirts, and checks from a checkbook. So it's just basically every time Neyssa turns around, there's a new story that she has to scramble, figure out what their statement is going to be, and follow up with all the journalists that are asking her questions.

[Jake Halpern]

So when Neysha is prepping him for this, this interview, what's her take on it? Does she feel that he is being, like, forthright with her? Does she still have faith in him as someone who is credible or not?

[Mark Cisano]

I think Neysha is stepping into this role and saying, I have been hired to do a job, and I'm going to do the best job I can do despite the circumstances. And, you know, Neyssa told me that Santos was always maintaining to her in their private conversations that he had answers for all of these things. And so when she's in that position where this is her boss, she wants to believe him and she wants to have his back and she wants to set him up for success because her boat's tied to his, you know.

[Neysa Woomer]

Oh, my God. It's just like, even though I was with him for five months, it probably felt like 500 years at that point. And my joke is always my theme song every day felt like was the Led Zeppelin song, When the Levee Breaks. It's just, I'm waiting for that to happen, so. Oh, wait, it did.

[Jake Halpern]

Keeps on raining Happy is gone Brave.

[Mark Cisano]

So in this episode, we're going to get into what Neysa and others would come to learn about George Santos while trying to sort fact from fiction stories that he's told about his family, specifically his mother. And while these stories are not necessarily related to the charges against him, I think they reveal something deeper about his character. And there's one story he told in particular that really struck a nerve. This is Deep Cover George Santos, Episode two, the Congressman.

[Neysa Woomer]

There are few people in this world you should not lie to. Your lawyer, your doctor, and your communications director.

[Jake Halpern]

By the way, I would ideally include spouse in there as well. Just saying. Just saying.

[Mark Cisano]

Spoken like a true husband.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay, so how does it go when she tries to prep him?

[Neysa Woomer]

Just getting him to sit down and prep was always. It was like. It's like getting a child to sit down and do their homework so very hard.

[Mark Cisano]

But she does get the chance to prep him briefly. And at a certain point in these conversations, the tone shifts.

[Neysa Woomer]

I'd say one of the hardest conversations I had was the death of his mother.

[Mark Cisano]

So in 2021, George Santos tweeted, 911 claimed my mother's life. And in the aftermath of the New York Times reporting, people find that tweet and they start asking more questions about that. And it was actually mentioned on Santos campaign website. It's actually still on his website to this day. It says, quote, george's mother was in her office in the south tower on September 11, 2001, when the horrific events of that day unfolded. And it goes on to say she survived the tragic events on September 11, but she passed away a few years later when she lost her battle to cancer. And this is one of the allegations against him, that this is not true. People do not find evidence to substantiate the fact that his mother was there. And NASA knows that this is something he's going to get asked about. So in her attempts to prep him, this is something that they talk about in detail.

[Jake Halpern]

Wait, what are the holes that people are poking in this story, at least initially, or are there any.

[Mark Cisano]

So when Santos tweet comes to light, there's a lot of questions. Because when you say 911 claimed my mother's life, that seems to imply that your mother died on 9 11.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah, that's what I thought when you. When you read it.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. And then it quickly becomes clear through reporting and just public records that his mother died in 2016.

[Neysa Woomer]

And one of the things we had talked about with him was just, did she. Because I saw the timeline of her death, and I had thought, well, I remembered Jon Stewart was starting to highlight a lot of problems that, like first responders, were starting to die as a result of 911 from exposure to the ash and dust that came from the World Trade Center.

[Mark Cisano]

So Neyssa, in that moment, understands that maybe it was just an error in how Santos chose to phrase the tweet, but that his mother died in 2016 from cancer, which was linked to her time at Ground Zero. That was the claim that Santos was making.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay.

[Mark Cisano]

Neysha is saying, okay, if you're going to be making this claim in public, then let's break it down. Let's talk through the details of this, because you will be Asked about it.

[Jake Halpern]

Right. And it seems like he can kind of make that argument somewhat credibly, because on the website, it's saying she passed away a few years later when she lost her battle to cancer. You know, it seems to me like he's actually got some cover here.

[Mark Cisano]

Yes. And she's quickly picking up on what he's saying, which is that. No, no, no. I'm claiming that she died later as a result of her exposure to Ground Zero.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay.

[Mark Cisano]

But Neysha wants details.

[Neysa Woomer]

And I asked him, I said, did she die as a result of 9 11? And he said, yes. I said, okay, so let's just break it down. Was she in the north or the south tower? And he said, the south tower. I said, all right, so she was in the south tower on September 11th.

[Mark Cisano]

Okay.

[Neysa Woomer]

Like, do you remember what floors she worked on? And he just said, well, you know, she worked for a cleaning company. So I did not have the. He did not give out the. I think he tried to say it was, like, the 34th or something. And I said, okay, well, so she did work in the World Trade Center. And he said, yes. I said, all right. So she got out of the building? Yes, she got out of the building. I said, okay, so she. She escaped. She's. She's safe. And I said, but, you know, was she exposed to the dust? And he said, yes.

[Mark Cisano]

And I thought, okay, so finally this is starting to make sense for Neyssa. She can understand the narrative that Santos has been telling. And even though he doesn't have all of the details, Neyssa is advising him. You know, this is a powerful story. This is an experience that people can relate to.

[Neysa Woomer]

You know, people will want to see a human side to you like that. And I said, maybe that's just. That's something you should talk about.

[Jake Halpern]

Hmm. It's interesting. Cause I heard that tape, and I hear her kind of poking a little bit too well.

[Mark Cisano]

Right. She's doing her job. She's saying, I'm trying to prep you for these interviews. Here's all of the questions that you may be asked about this. So let's try to get some specifics down. Right.

[Jake Halpern]

Mm.

[Neysa Woomer]

And then a few weeks later, I think the New York Times or MSNBC had reached out and said they had found proof that she wasn't in the country. And I thought, oh, my God. This is like, why are you doing this? It just. I thought, why?

[Mark Cisano]

Like, why?

[Jake Halpern]

I mean, that's the question, right? Does she have any answer to that question?

[Mark Cisano]

I would argue Neyssa is Still looking for her. Why? And Neysha isn't the only one that's trying to make sense out of all this. The guy that I think has gone the deepest down the rabbit hole is a journalist named Mark Cisano. And what he's found reshaped the way I think about George Santos. That's coming up next. Have you ever gotten sick on a very expensive, very non refundable family trip? Amazon One Medical has 24. 7 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are. And with Amazon Pharmacy, your meds can get delivered right to your hotel fast. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful.

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[Mark Cisano]

I had to call the guy who has done, in my opinion, the best reporting on Santos family and his background. His name is Mark Cisano and he wrote a book with a very long title.

[Fatima Devolder]

The book is called the the Lying, Hustling, Grifting, Stealing and very American Legend of Jorge Santos.

[Mark Cisano]

Mark worked for Newsday, basically one of the only major newspapers left on Long Island. And he's covered Santos since his first campaign.

[Fatima Devolder]

Back then, he sort of had to pick up the phone because no one was really calling him. And so he would, he would answer me or he would send a statement or he would have someone call me.

[Jake Halpern]

What was Mark's early take on Santos like in those first interactions?

[Mark Cisano]

So Mark told me that Santos seemed somewhat evasive.

[Fatima Devolder]

He definitely, you know, kind of would allide details and sort of tell you stuff that didn't totally make sense. But it was hard to tell in the beginning. This is what a lot of first time candidates are like. Right.

[Mark Cisano]

And as time went on, of course, it would become clear to Mark and everyone. Right. That Santos was not being transparent about his life on the campaign trail. It strikes me, reading through different stories of Santos, stories that he's told about himself, that a lot of the stories about him seem to start with the story of his mom. So what was the story about his mother that he was telling?

[Fatima Devolder]

Yeah, his mom was pretty central to his campaign. You know, she really loomed large. He called her a Wall street executive, you know, one of the first female executives on Wall street or something to that effect. He said that she escaped the south tower during 9 11. He said that she was a big political actor. He claims that she had donated over, I think he said something like 20 years donated to Republican politicians. He even said that she campaigned for Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani, that is, and brought him along with her, that he had fond memories of this. So this was his, the image that he painted of her. And the funny thing with Santos is that the truth and the fiction is sort of intermingled. And sometimes what starts as a pebble of truth, as one of his relatives told me, you know, turns into this kind of large mountain of lies.

[Jake Halpern]

Well, there's a bunch to unpack there. But one thing that jumps out is that when he was talking to Neyssa about prepping for that press conference, Neyssa says that he described his mother as working for a cleaning company in the World Trade Center. So that's at odds with her being a Wall street executive here? No.

[Mark Cisano]

Yes. You've hit on one of the first key discrepancies that people pick up on. You know, Santos tells this story about his mother, and because we have the Internet, everyone can kind of compare notes. He tells the story differently. So in certain tellings, she's a financial executive. In other tellings, she's working as A cleaner in the Towers. And it's a bit hard to parse out if any of that is true. But also, you know, he's projecting a version of his mom that in many ways mirrors the version of himself that he was promoting. Mark is very keen to figure out what parts of the story that Santos told about his mom, what parts of that can be substantiated. And he even travels to Brazil to report out, you know, what the family's history there is like.

[Fatima Devolder]

So to be careful, I tried to really see what, if any of that story about his mother was true. And all I can say is what we found out is certainly not true. No campaign finance records show any evidence of her donating. She does not appear to have voted in any election in New York or elsewhere. She also does not appear to be a citizen, at least according to her own immigration records. So totally not, you know, not the story that he was telling.

[Mark Cisano]

So pretty quickly, Mark breaks this down and he's able to say, so much of the story that Santos tells about his mother just doesn't check out.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah. And what seems to be clear to me that there's a pattern here with Santos, which is where there are small lies, if you dig deeper, there are bigger lies.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. It's just like Mark said, the pebble that becomes the mountain.

[Fatima Devolder]

Then there's this 911 story, which very central to the story he was telling about her. And I think struck a nerve in New York, where people do have 911 stories and everyone kind of says, you know, talks about where you were that day. Right. And doubly so on Long island, where so many of his constituents were cops or firefighters. Right. Or bankers, too, who were, you know, in the building. So a big deal to lie about. And again, you know, very hard to prove a negative. But her own immigration paperwork said that she was not in the country at the time. In fact, she herself filed paperwork in, I think it was June of that year, from Niteroi, which is the city outside of Rio where she grew up. So, again, you can lie on paperwork sometimes. Immigrants sort of aren't exactly clear on where they were and when, but no evidence to suggest that she was escaping. And in fact, in Santos campaign materials, he said that she escaped the South Tower from her office as a financial executive. Right. Which, again, she. There's no evidence that she was involved in finance at all.

[Jake Halpern]

So what do we actually know for sure about Santos, his family, their background?

[Mark Cisano]

So the real story of George Santos starts in Queens. The family did not have a lot of money. You know, Santos says he grew up in abject poverty, and that appears to be true. His mother, you know, took care of him and his sister. According to Mark, Jorge Santos and his mother, Fatima, had a very close but also complicated relationship.

[Fatima Devolder]

They seem to have been very close, and also, in the way that many close relationships work, also kind of butted heads a lot. I spoke to one person who, you know, worked on the campaign with Santos. This is kind of later on, after she's dead, years after she's dead, by the way. And Santos would still kind of have a kind of shakiness to his voice when he mentioned her. Right. In a way that didn't seem to be acting. It was kind of. It was. It seemed real. He. He would live with her as an adult, you know, from time to time. They were actual roommates. And even that was kind of. It would. It would have its ups and downs. You know, there would be moments when he was living, say, you know, in another part of Queens, and he would come to visit her and see her because he seemed to miss her, one roommate told me. And on the other hand, sometimes they were living together, and he would get in these kind of huge fights with her, Screaming, screaming, cursing so intense that his mother, Fatima, would go into her own bedroom and close the door and start crying. So this was kind of the back and forth with them.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay, so he has this kind of stormy relationship with his mom. Really close. They're living together. How old is he when his mom gets cancer?

[Mark Cisano]

He would have been in his late 20s when his mom died of cancer.

[Jake Halpern]

And how does that play out for Santos?

[Fatima Devolder]

Fatima gets sick, and Santos seems to have taken that very hard and tried to take care of her, tried to help her.

[Mark Cisano]

While this is going on, Santos appears to have struggled to pay rent more than once. So at the time where his mother is sick with cancer, Santos is appearing in court. And Mark told me about one such moment like this back in 2015.

[Fatima Devolder]

At one time, he shows up in court. One of his interactions with housing court in New York, where he's trying to explain why he didn't pay the rent. And one of his excuses is that he's caring for his mother. Right. Which, you know, don't know if that means that he wasn't actually able to pay, but it does sort of show their relationship and kind of their bond, their proximity. So she gets sick, she remains sick, and unfortunately, she dies in 2016. Some people see this as a real moment of transition for Santos that he kind of loses, obviously, a sort of close friend Someone who's very important to him. And that, that's when he seems to kind of lose control of his own story and narrative.

[Jake Halpern]

That's really. It's just really poignant. Like the idea that he's like, his mother's dying and he's basically so poor that he's going before the court and saying, I can't pay my rent and I'm caring for my dying mother. It's so interesting. He invents these stories to kind of engender our sympathy, but here it almost sounds like the real one is perfectly sympathetic in its truthful form.

[Mark Cisano]

Yes. Although I will say, because we were talking about George Santos, when you think you have reached the truth, there is usually a catch.

[Jake Halpern]

Well, I mean, yeah, maybe I'm a complete sucker to think that he would tell the judge the truth. And I have this feeling that you're about to tell me something about his mother's death that's gonna completely undermine the sympathy that I just fell for him.

[Mark Cisano]

Unfortunately, yes. So what Mark has found through his reporting around Fatimah's death is just really striking. Specifically one story around Fatima's funeral.

[Fatima Devolder]

Santos mother, Fatima passes away. Santos says that he's unable to kind of pay for the funeral costs. Right. He and his sister have had a hard time caring for her and they need money, basically. And so luckily they're all part of this church community, St. Rita's in Queens. Very close knit, kind of beautiful church. It's a really nice kind of communal place. And people there remember Santos and his sister. And so the church has a. They put out a kind of a call for help and they collect money for the family. Right. And it's in one of those collection box, like typical Catholic church. And that, that box is that that basket is handed to Santos. And what we know is that the funeral home was never paid their debt for Fatima's service. So we don't know exactly what happened with that box, but it left the church's hand and didn't seem to leave Santos's.

[Jake Halpern]

How much money are we talking about here?

[Mark Cisano]

One of Mark's sources estimated it was somewhere around $6,000.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow. I mean, okay, this is so crazy. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Like, he collected this money from all these people in his church under the guise that he was going to pay the funeral home for his mother's funeral. And then he takes the money and never pays the funeral home.

[Mark Cisano]

That appears to be what happened.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow. I'm really speechless. On some level, we're Talking about, like, how do you wrap your mind around lies? So there's lies of opportunism that we feel. We understand that, like, politicians will bend the truth, embellish the truth, inflate their resumes in ways that make them look greater than they really are. And it's not right, but we get it. That's part of the grimy business of how politics is done. But this is just something altogether different, Right?

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah.

[Jake Halpern]

What's your take on this?

[Mark Cisano]

No, I'm with you. I was astounded by this and at a loss for words even now.

[Jake Halpern]

I mean, it just raises the question, what, if anything, do we hold sacred? He clearly was close to his mom. That seems undeniable. He's living with her. Maybe they fought, but they were also very close. And then he's lying about the manner of her death as a way of self promotion. And then when it comes time to put her to rest, he goes to the community of which she was a part of, asks for their help in her name to honor her properly, and then embezzles the money. That's just a level of deceit. That is. That cannot be explained by opportunism alone.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah, you have to wonder what was motivating him at that point. And we don't know what his financial state was in that moment. So it's possible that he was really desperate and needed that money. And that's maybe one explanation for why the funeral home never got that money. But we just haven't gotten answers on this, so we won't know more about it. And of course, there's lots of things we still haven't gotten answers on. And, you know, when you're dealing with Santos, even the people closest to him, including his own staffers, have spent a lot of time just trying to pry the truth out of him. More on that after the break. The last thing you want to do when you're sick is go to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription, because then you're standing in a long line with a whole bunch of sick people, and everyone is sick of being sick around other people who are sick. Amazon Pharmacy will deliver right to you fast so you can get meds without congregating among the contagious. Healthcare just got less painful. Amazon Pharmacy.

[Amy Brown]

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[Mark Cisano]

I want to bring us back to Neysa Santos, communications director because when we last heard from her, she was prepping for this big TV interview where she had hoped that he would come clean.

[Neysa Woomer]

Whether you sit down with someone like Chuck Todd or Tucker Carlson, they're all going to be equally tough on you. And I want to find the right one who is going to be tough but like firm but fair.

[Mark Cisano]

Do you have any guesses on who they go with?

[Jake Halpern]

I have no idea.

[Mark Cisano]

They do not get Chuck Todd, they do not get Tucker Carlson, but they do get a journalist from across the pond, Piers Morgan.

[Neysa Woomer]

When Piers Team reached out, I thought, this is it. This is, this is my opportunity. We'll do it with a well known British journalist who has zero skin in the game when it comes to American politics and he's going to be equally tough on a Republican as he would be with a Democrat. So I thought he's going to be in the United States this week. Let's set this up and get it over with. Rip this band aid off and we'll be done.

[Mark Cisano]

The peers interview. Prepping for that. What are you hoping or expect? Expecting that he'll say the truth. So George sits down for an interview with Piers Morgan. On his show called Piers Morgan uncensored. And Piers goes there. He asks Santos about his mother.

[Jake Halpern]

I want to turn to something that's obviously very personal to you, and that's your own mother and this question of whether she was working, as you claimed, in her office in the south tower of the twin Towers on September 11th and then passed away, as you said, a few years later when she lost a battle to cancer. Now, there is no record of your mother, Fatima Devolder, ever having worked in the twin towers. So was that true?

[Fatima Devolder]

That's true.

[Mark Cisano]

Why is there no record of it working in. I don't know where people are looking or what they're looking for, but there is obviously no.

[Jake Halpern]

Because of what happened afterwards. There's a record of everyone that worked there. There's no doubt about who worked.

[Fatima Devolder]

I'm sorry.

[Jake Halpern]

Well, there's no doubt about who was.

[Mark Cisano]

There's no doubt of who worked in the buildings on. There was a full record done of everything. I'm very aware. So the way. The way that I look at this.

[Fatima Devolder]

And I've rest this case before and.

[Neysa Woomer]

Respectfully, please, I won't debate my mother's life as she's passed in 16. And I think it's. It's quite insensitive for everybody to want to rehash my mother's legacy.

[Jake Halpern]

It's painful to listen to. Like, you can feel his mind kind of churning to come up with something.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. You know, as the journalist, you never want to be a part of the story. But I found at a certain point I needed to say the thing that I was thinking the whole time. And I started getting into that with Mark, the reporter who wrote the book on George Santos. I'll share a little bit here. I grew up in Santos district. My father was a first responder on 9 11. He was a New York city police officer, and he did develop cancer that is believed to be related to his exposure. And he passed away in 2017. So sorry to hear that.

[Fatima Devolder]

Thank you.

[Mark Cisano]

The story that he's telling has a lot of resemblance to the story that my family shares. There is this community, specifically on Long island, that cares a lot about this specific issue of benefits for first responders and has a lot of sympathy and empathy for that situation. And so I think it's just a very specific lie.

[Fatima Devolder]

It is in the same way that his story about Jewish heritage was very specific, But I think he has a good ear for some of these things. And he's not from Long island, but like most New Yorkers, he kind of knows it very well and kind of understands, I think, all of its kind of highs and lows, the kind of glittery Hamptons part of Long island, but also this. This story of first responders and great tragedy. Right. And the kind of gritty reality of Long Island. And I think that he was aware of that and kind of used that.

[Jake Halpern]

Your dad was a New York City police officer, right?

[Mark Cisano]

Yes.

[Jake Halpern]

Was he a motorcycle cop? Am I remembering that correctly?

[Mark Cisano]

You are. My dad rode a motorcycle for a highway unit, actually based out of Queens.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay. Wow.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. I mean, I will be honest and say I did not expect the conversation with Neyssa or with Mark to go there, but in both cases it did. And obviously it's something that. As much as I wanna stay objective and remove myself from the reporting, I can't forget the fact that this is a huge part of my life and my family and our legacy, honestly. And I almost can't put to words how angry I feel hearing that someone is co opting that narrative for their own personal gain. Because it's a real narrative that has taken people's lives and destroyed families, and people live with that. And the fact that he would potentially try to claim this when there's been no evidence to corroborate it is just kind of infuriating.

[Jake Halpern]

He's appropriating. He's using the legacy of the Holocaust, and then he's, in this case, using the legacy of first responders. These are two tragedies that resonate with his constituents, and he's claiming them both as his own in a way that he has to understand is going to engender sympathy and bolster his popularity.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. And I think that this is a moment where that really clarified for me. You know, you could look at the lies that he's told and say, well, to what end is he doing this? And then I think when you focus on a few of these stories, you see the intentionality. You see that there is a reason that it's this specific lie and it's speaking directly to people who would then put him in office. There are still first responders who are receiving treatment related to illnesses that stem from their time at ground zero. There were real people who were harmed here because they were lied to, but also because in some cases, their stories were used against them in a way.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah. It's crazy, though. Like, did he not think he was gonna be confronted with these facts that there's a record, everyone that worked there because of how much significance that attack had? I mean.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah, it's a Good question. You see this time and time again with George Santos where he's faced with an allegation. He claims to have evidence or proof, but then we never see that evidence. Right. But the thing that is striking to me is there are certain lies that he has admitted were lies.

[Jake Halpern]

Like what. What was an. What's an example of that?

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah, so he admitted. Okay, I didn't go to Baruch.

[Jake Halpern]

Looking back on that lie, that seems like small fry compared to this. I mean.

[Mark Cisano]

Yeah. And I mean, why does he still hold onto this story about his mother even when so many people have challenged him on it? There's one version of the story that Santos tells, which is that his mother passed away in 2016 from cancer. And that appears to be true.

[Fatima Devolder]

Yes.

[Mark Cisano]

That's all he said?

[Fatima Devolder]

Yes.

[Mark Cisano]

But then there's another version, or there's an extended version, if you will, that links her illness to her experience at ground zero. And that's the part that most people have come to the conclusion is not true, cannot be substantiated, but it is a part that Santos has doubled down on. But again, with those retractions, like, he'll admit, okay, I didn't go to Baruch, but my mother did die as a result of 9 11.

[Fatima Devolder]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Cisano]

What do you make of that?

[Fatima Devolder]

This was kind of the crazy part about reporting this book is I would go down these rabbit holes and start thinking about, like, what is the nature of truth? You know, like, what can I. What can I actually, like, tell the reader is real about this guy's story? You know, typical relationships between human beings. You just. We assumes what someone is telling you is true because that's the easiest way for a society to function. And so there were moments when I was working on this where I would start making excuses for Santos, like, oh, who knows, Maybe she worked as a. A cleaner in one of the towers, and maybe she kind of got out after that kind of experience. Who knows? That could be true. Unfortunately, Santos hasn't given us any more details or any more explanation other than his lies. So I think it really is kind of up to him to sort of tell us what's real.

[Jake Halpern]

I mean, I think that's the tricky thing about Santos, is that he's not making up stories wholesale. He's mixing truth and fiction and weaving in bits of his own story that are really painful and difficult and creating this. This thing that is difficult to disentangle and difficult to challenge, and it's just confounding.

[Mark Cisano]

I'd agree with you, and I'm left feeling that even though so much of what has been uncovered might feel, you know, morally wrong, there hasn't really been any consequences in this point in time for George Santos. He's telling lies, he's co opting people's stories, he's betraying people close to him. But there's no real accountability for any of this.

[Jake Halpern]

It's interesting. Like we live, we live in a moment where sometimes when someone accuses you of being a liar, it's actually an asset with your constituents. Cause it's like, oh, it's the New York Times. The Democrats are calling me a liar. And in fact, you just double down on your position. And then, you know, it's like, look, my enemies are really out to get me. But it seems like Santos is dangerously close to the tipping point at which, you know, how long is he gonna be able to do this before he actually has to face the music?

[Mark Cisano]

Absolutely. I mean, George Santos flies under the radar for a really long time. But as he is in office that first year, something is starting to shift. There are investigations going on both with the Justice Department and in the House. And you get the sense that Santos and others are starting to feel like the walls are closing in. Maybe these investigations are going to start to catch up with him. Coming up next time on Deep Cover. George Santos.

[Neysa Woomer]

For me, I'm furious because I spent some of my friends that I asked to support George. I mean, all of them, they know me, so they're, you know, and they were hoodwinked to know that I was hoodwinked.

[Mark Cisano]

But they were upset that they were.

[Neysa Woomer]

Dragged into this and it was my responsibility. You know, I am mad at myself for not doing my own due diligence.

[Jake Halpern]

For more on Marc Gasano's reporting on George Santos, check out his book the the Lying, Hustling, Grifting, Stealing and Very American Legend of George Santos. This series is produced by Amy Gaines, McQuaid & Joey Fishground. Our editor is Karen Chikurji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Mastering by Jake Gorski. Fact checking by Annika Robbins. Our show art was designed by Sean Carney. Music in this episode is from Luis Guerra and Epidemic Sound. Special thanks to Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler and Greta Cohn. I'm Jake Halpern.

[Amy Brown]

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[Neysa Woomer]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

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[Mark Cisano]

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[Jake Halpern]

Restrictions and exclusions applied. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.