Episode 4: The Donor

Summary

Deep Cover: Episode 4 - The Donor

Host: Pushkin Industries
Release Date: August 28, 2024
Hosted by: Jake Halpern
Producer: Amy Gaines McQuade

---

Introduction

In Deep Cover: George Santos, Pushkin Industries delves into the intricate web of deceit spun by former Republican Congressman George Santos from New York. Episode 4, titled The Donor, offers a compelling exploration of Santos' relationships with his donors, the fraudulent activities that led to his downfall, and the profound impact on those who trusted him. Through intimate interviews and detailed investigative reporting, host Jake Halpern and producer Amy Gaines McQuade uncover the true extent of Santos' double life.

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Meeting the Donor: Kathy Soref

The episode centers around Kathy Soref, a long-time Republican donor from Long Island's North Shore, who became one of Santos' significant supporters. Nysa Woomer, Santos' former communications director, introduces Kathy as someone deeply embedded in conservative politics, having voted for every Republican presidential candidate since Gerald Ford.

Timestamp 02:15
Nysa Woomer: "Kathy's donors play a significant role in the indictments against him."

Kathy recounts her initial encounter with Santos at a fundraising event in Matatuck, where she was impressed by his charisma and perceived viability as a candidate who could win in a traditionally Democratic district.

Timestamp 05:33
George Santos: "George described himself as being independently well to do and felt that it was his civic duty to participate in public service."

Despite her reservations about his ideal candidacy, Kathy was persuaded to support Santos, contributing significantly to his campaigns and leveraging her network to build his political capital.

---

The Deceptive Facade

As the narrative unfolds, the episode reveals the extent of Santos' fabrications. Claims about his educational background, personal struggles, and professional experience were meticulously constructed to gain the trust and financial support of donors like Kathy.

Timestamp 10:35
Nysa Woomer: "Kathy has said to me that she had no clue about what George Santos was up to. And I believe her on that."

Kathy shares anecdotes about Santos embellishing his life story, including falsely claiming his mother attended Harvard and alleging he survived cancer. These lies were instrumental in building his image as a relatable and resilient candidate.

Timestamp 11:09
George Santos: "He told me that his mother went to Harvard."

Timestamp 11:20
George Santos: "He did tell me that."

---

Unraveling the Fraud

The episode delves into the criminal activities that led to Santos' indictment. Charging donors' credit cards without authorization and exceeding contribution limits were among the fraudulent actions that tarnished his political career.

Timestamp 20:39
Nysa Woomer: "Contributor number 12 was charged $15,800, almost $16,000 in contributions, which is $10,000 over what is technically allowed."

This overcharging was part of a broader scheme where Santos directed funds through Redstone Strategies, a company he heavily influenced, to funnel money into his personal accounts. The indictment highlighted over $40,000 in unauthorized contributions and significant misuse of these funds for personal luxury expenses.

Timestamp 22:05
Nysa Woomer: "He used the credit card billing information to transfer more than $11,000 to Santos' personal bank account."

---

Impact on Donors and Political Repercussions

Kathy Soref grapples with the betrayal, feeling defrauded and responsible for introducing Santos to her network of donors. Her frustrations extend beyond personal loss to systemic failures within the Republican Party's vetting processes.

Timestamp 31:12
Kathy Soref: "He would never have won as himself."

She criticizes Joe Cairo, the head of the Republican Committee in Nassau County, for inadequate vetting of Santos, which allowed his fraudulent activities to go unnoticed for so long.

Timestamp 35:09
Joe Cairo: "Unfortunately, we rely on the person to be truthful to us."

Despite initial efforts to expel Santos from Congress, the necessary two-thirds majority was not achieved immediately. However, a subsequent resolution in December 2023 ultimately led to Santos' expulsion, resulting in the loss of his seat for the Republicans and flipping it to the Democrats during a special election.

Timestamp 26:30
Jake Halpern: "The House votes to keep Santos in office for now. But in this moment, Nysa is done."

---

Systemic Failures and Lessons Learned

Nysa Woomer emphasizes the need to understand the systemic flaws that allowed Santos to deceive so many without early detection. The episode critiques the lack of rigorous background checks and the reliance on candidates' self-reported information, highlighting how simple verification steps could have prevented the widespread fraud.

Timestamp 38:28
Nysa Woomer: "The more interesting question is how does something like this happen?"

The episode also explores the internal dynamics of the Santos campaign, particularly a vulnerability report commissioned in 2021 that uncovered inconsistencies in his background. Despite these findings, the campaign chose to move forward, illustrating a critical lapse in accountability and transparency.

Timestamp 41:10
Nysa Woomer: "The report cost nearly $17,000. The results come back, and they find a lot of the same things that had been laid out that would later come to light."

---

Conclusion: The Aftermath and Moving Forward

As the dust settles, Kathy Soref reflects on the personal and political fallout from Santos' deceit. She expresses anger not only towards Santos but also towards the Republican Party for failing to safeguard her trust and investments.

Timestamp 37:40
Kathy Soref: "I'm done. I'm never talking to you again."

The episode concludes with a poignant reflection on the broader implications of Santos' actions, urging political parties to implement more stringent vetting processes to prevent similar scandals in the future.

Timestamp 34:16
Nysa Woomer: "Understanding the forces that put him in this position and allowed him to get away with seemingly so many lies and crimes without consequence for quite some time, that is the bigger issue to be addressing here."

---

Notable Quotes

• "He would never have won as himself."
  Kathy Soref [31:12]

• "He's accused of stealing to, you know, it's the old Machiavellian means to an end."
  George Santos [31:17]

• "The more interesting question is how does something like this happen?"
  Nysa Woomer [34:08]

• "I am furious with him. I mean, George pulled the wool over his eyes. It's like Mr. Ripley meets Catch me if you can."
  George Santos [35:09]

---

Final Thoughts

Deep Cover: Episode 4 - The Donor meticulously unpacks the layers of deception orchestrated by George Santos, highlighting the personal betrayals and systemic oversights that facilitated his rise and precipitous fall. Through Kathy Soref's narrative, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the human and political costs of fraudulent politics. This episode serves as a cautionary tale, emphasizing the necessity for vigilance and integrity in political endorsements and campaign funding.

Transcript

[Jake Halpern]

Pushkin.

[Ellie Hollander]

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[Nysa Woomer]

So, Jake, when we started reporting this series, I set out to speak with one of Santos's donors because I thought it would be interesting to talk to someone who chose to support Santos.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah, and I totally didn't think you were gonna get anyone to talk to you on the record.

[Nysa Woomer]

Me too. But also, I mean, Santos's donors play a significant role in the indictments against him. So I was hopeful I would get someone on the record. And now with George Santos pleading guilty in federal court, we won't have a trial. And so there's many people we won't hear from. But today you're gonna hear from someone who was subpoenaed. Someone who was expecting to have to testify about Jorge Santos and who, once upon a time, was his ally.

[George Santos]

I met George at an event in Matatuck out east on Long island, probably in 2021. It was hot, so it must have been the summer.

[Nysa Woomer]

This is Kathy Soref.

[George Santos]

It was an event that was held by someone I didn't know, but I had been Invited to this probably because of my history of supporting conservative candidates.

[Nysa Woomer]

She's a Republican donor who lives on Long island on the North Shore.

[Jake Halpern]

The North Shore? Like Gatsby country?

[Nysa Woomer]

Yes, exactly. Kathy has voted for every Republican presidential candidate since Gerald Ford. When I interviewed Kathy at her house, there was a lot going on. I got the sense that Kathy's house is. Is always buzzing with activity. And also, just me calling it a house is really underselling it because this place was massive. Outside, there are these colorful sculptures of animals all over the property. Like, think pink, blue, purple. The house is at the end of a private road. And when I parked outside, I noticed there was room to park, I guess, at least 10 cars outside the front door. What do you call the house?

[George Santos]

The Villa Gorilla.

[Nysa Woomer]

Where did that name come from?

[George Santos]

Well, it's disputed. My nephews take credit for it, but I think that Douglas named it that after a Warren Zavon song.

[Nysa Woomer]

Douglas is her husband. So all of this to say, she's got a great house for parties. Anyway, back to the moment when Kathy first met Jorge Santos. She told me that before she actually met him in person at that Republican fundraiser out east on Long island, she got a phone call.

[George Santos]

I don't know how much of a coincidence it was, but I received a phone call from George asking for money because he was announcing his candidacy before they'd even met.

[Jake Halpern]

He just, like, cold called her.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yes.

[George Santos]

Wow.

[Nysa Woomer]

Out of the blue, like he'd just.

[Jake Halpern]

Gotten a whiff of what she might do for him.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah, exactly. And then when she arrives at the fundraiser, guess who she's sitting with?

[George Santos]

We were seated at the same table. George described himself as being independently well to do, and felt that he. It was his civic duty to participate in public service.

[Nysa Woomer]

And Kathy told me that she liked him even from that first meeting, even if he wasn't her perfect candidate.

[George Santos]

George is not your average type and certainly not my ideal political candidate. But for a Republican running in Democrat New York, I thought he would be. He would win. So, you know, I said that I would support him and give him, you know, a couple of events, which I did to help him, introduce him to other people. So I expended a lot of my own personal political capital, meaning my friends and connections who participate in conservative politics, and they supported George for the same reason that I did.

[Jake Halpern]

What does she mean by that? What is her reason?

[Nysa Woomer]

I think she meant that he was the candidate who could maybe win in New York and in that district. You know, she found him quite charming.

[George Santos]

Well, he's kind of a Weird guy, but he's kind of oddly charismatic. He's whip it smart, a very, very quick thinking. He has a lot of, like, social references and he's very palsy.

[Nysa Woomer]

And Kathy isn't the only one who saw something promising in this new young candidate. She was just one of many donors who contributed to the Santos campaign. Donors who were deceived and in some cases defrauded. And these donors have played a huge role in his unraveling. The man who flew under the radar for so long and seemingly got away with a lot of lies and half truths and deceit has finally had to face some real consequences. This is Deep Cover. George Santos, Episode four the Donor. So, as you are aware, Santos was indicted twice. But I want to talk for a moment about that first indictment that came down in May of 2023. We were shocked. My phone is literally blowing up in the worst way. Possible inquiries about saying, is George going to jail? What's going on? And it's just, I thought my reputation is so screwed. That's Nysa Woomer. She was Santos communications director. So this indictment is for 13 counts. The charges range from money laundering to stealing public money, wire fraud, and making false statements to Congress. And it's in that moment that everyone can see for the first time really what sort of criminal allegations Jorge Santos is facing. These are things that go beyond the stories that he told about his personal life or some fabrications on his resume. A lot had been speculated, but things come into sharp focus when the charges come out. I'm disgusted. I'm thoroughly disgusted. I thought, okay, now we're in, you know, wire fraud and money laundering. You know, respect is gone. It became, it was too much and it became too toxic. And directly following that indictment, Santos faces a vote from the House. Someone introduces a resolution to expel him, essentially to oust him from Congress.

[Jake Halpern]

I personally in favor of this individual's expulsion from this House. Regrettably, however, I'm in the understanding that we currently do not have the 2/3 support from members of this House to expel that individual.

[Nysa Woomer]

So just to break down what's happening here, you're hearing from a Republican, also from New York, who is not happy with Santos. But at this moment in time, the Republicans have the majority in the House. And it seems like politically there are quite a few Republicans who don't want to put that into jeopardy.

[Jake Halpern]

Just to be clear here, this is a district that could swing back to blue.

[Nysa Woomer]

In theory, yes. So the House votes to keep Santos in office for now. But in this moment, naysa is done. You know, she's asked around for advice, and they've all basically told her the same thing. They just said, if I were you or if I was advising a client, I would resign. The longer you stay, the longer it's going to hurt you. NASA resigns right after that unsuccessful vote to oust Santos from Congress.

[Jake Halpern]

So I'm curious. Back in 2021, 2022, the donors that George Santos was courting, people like Kathy, do you get the sense that she had any idea what this guy was really up to?

[Nysa Woomer]

Kathy has said to me that she had no clue about what George Santos was up to. And I believe her on that. I mean, she had no reason not to trust him in that moment. I do get the sense that Kathy and Jorge Santos formed a friendship in the time that they knew each other.

[George Santos]

He came to my house several times. He would drop. He claimed to live near here. He told me that his mother died of cancer. He told me that his mother went to Harvard.

[Nysa Woomer]

He told you that his mother went to Harvard?

[George Santos]

Yes, he did. And he also told me that he had survived cancer.

[Nysa Woomer]

That George had survived cancer.

[George Santos]

Right. He did tell me that.

[Nysa Woomer]

Did he give.

[George Santos]

I didn't go into it because when someone says, oh, yes, I'm a cancer survivor, I didn't say, well, what kind did you have? I just was kind of stunned. I said, oh, I'm sorry. That added to his story and appeal, that he's a survivor.

[Jake Halpern]

You see, it's like a jazz musician. He's just improvising. I haven't heard these Santos stories yet. This is. Wow.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah. This was the first time I had heard a lot of this, too. And I think that maybe some of these stories were cherry picked for Kathy.

[Jake Halpern]

What do you mean that you think that some of these stories might have been cherry picked for Kathy?

[Nysa Woomer]

Like, these are things that Jorge Santos thought would impress Kathy. And I should say, Kathy would later tell me it was actually Yale that his mother attended, not Harvard, and that she actually isn't all that impressed by an Ivy League education. But regardless, I see this as Jorge Santos trying to play the role, trying to impress Kathy.

[Jake Halpern]

I see.

[Nysa Woomer]

And George needs someone like Kathy to like him. Right. Because Kathy is a door to connections, to more money. Which brings us back to this event that Kathy decides she's going to throw for George at the Villa Guerrilla. She couldn't remember the exact date, but thinks it was during the 2022 campaign. She told me she sent out printed invites and, of course, I wanted to hear every detail. Santos stood at the door. He was like the welcome wagon.

[George Santos]

He was greeting everyone. We were standing in the front hall and I would introduce him to everyone. It was casual. Then we were inside and outside. And then he gave his talk in the living room. George was very funny and engaging.

[Jake Halpern]

It's funny, the image of him standing at the door to this mansion as if he were welcoming guests to his own home. I mean, it just. That seems so believable to me and so kind of fitting for this guy's aspirations.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah.

[Jake Halpern]

And who were the people at Villa Guerrilla that evening?

[George Santos]

My focus is next generation. So we had quite a few young people here from the area. Maybe we had 30 people. But I'm sure he raised a fair amount of money. I had several of my local long time friends who showed up for it. It was tremendously horrible for me of what happened.

[Nysa Woomer]

What happened meaning when she eventually learned what Santos was really up to. When the New York Times story came.

[George Santos]

Out, the guy hoodwinked everyone. For me, I'm furious because I spent some of my friends that I asked to support George. I mean, all of them, they know me, so they're, you know, and they were hoodwinked to know that I was hoodwinked. But they were upset that they were dragged into this, and it was my responsibility. You know, I am mad at myself for not doing my own due diligence.

[Jake Halpern]

Does Kathie see herself as a victim?

[Nysa Woomer]

Kathy told me that she considers herself that she was defrauded by George Santos, but she does not think that Santos, you know, stole from her. She does not think that her credit card information was misused in any way. And the reason that's a relevant distinction is because Santos did steal from some of his donors by charging their credit cards without their consent for large sums of money.

[George Santos]

He did not steal from me. I probably in total, besides the, you know, probably cost me a few thousand dollars to give him an event. I probably, in addition, maybe it was about $6,000.

[Nysa Woomer]

I've seen Newsday did, like a review of federal election data, and I think they pegged you at like 7,000.

[George Santos]

Well, maybe some, you know, I don't really keep track of it. I gave him a check. I think maybe one time I gave him a credit card. I don't remember. I don't know. I'd have to go through all of my papers again, but it was, you know, nominal. Like $1,000 at a time.

[Nysa Woomer]

I have to ask the question, do you know of anyone who attended a fundraiser at your house, may have had their credit card information?

[George Santos]

I don't know for a fact any of that.

[Nysa Woomer]

So to be clear, Kathy does not know if anyone in her orbit that she had at the fundraiser was part of this credit card fraud scheme, whether they were targets for that. But I can say that the indictment lays out some other examples in detail. And Santos goes on a spending spree with his donors credit cards. More on that after the break.

[Ellie Hollander]

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[Jake Halpern]

So credit card fraud, that's a pretty big deal. How much are we talking about money wise here?

[Nysa Woomer]

So there's one example in particular that's laid out in the indictment. And to protect this person's identity, it's anonymized. So they're only referred to as contributor number 12. So this all begins when contributor number 12 sends their credit card info to the Santos campaign and the Santos team charges it for more than they should on that day. And this is an issue for two reasons. The first being that contributor number 12 did not authorize this overcharge. But also it's over the limit of what's allowed, which back in 2022 was $2900 that you could give once for the primary and then again in the general election.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay, so in theory, that's 5,800 for the two. Now what's the deal with contributor number 12? How much over was this person charged?

[Nysa Woomer]

So contributor number 12 was charged $15,800. So almost 16,000 in contributions, which is 10,000 over what is technically allowed.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow. I mean, is that. Was that a mistake you want to say, like, right. Did this happen more than once?

[Nysa Woomer]

It did. So Santos and his team attempted over $40,000 of contributions from Contributor 12 over the course of a few months. So they repeatedly charged his card. And then we see an even more brazen act when the indictment lays out that Santos just started sending money to his own personal account directly, again, without any authorization from contributor number 12. So in one case, they used their credit card billing information to transfer more than $11,000 to Santos Personal bank account.

[Jake Halpern]

He's like a kid in a candy store with no one watching, it seems like.

[Nysa Woomer]

And this is also the first time in the indictment we hear about something that prosecutors call company number one. At a certain point during the 2022 campaign, Santos uses the credit card billing information of contributor 12, charges $12,000, and it hits the account of company number one.

[Jake Halpern]

What is company number one?

[Nysa Woomer]

So the House ethics report and other reporting has identified company number one as Redstone Strategies. Redstone Strategies is all over this indictment as company number one.

[Jake Halpern]

And let me guess, it was formed just before the election.

[Nysa Woomer]

It was formed in November 2021. So, yes, around the time that Santos is mounting his campaign for the 2022 election, it was formed in Florida. Santos is a major stakeholder of Redstone Strategies. He has tried to distance himself, but his fingerprints appear to be all over this company. And so, basically, going back to contributor number 12 for a moment, they are charged $12,000 to Redstone Strategies. And then it seems like what prosecutors allege in the indictment is that Most of that $12,000 goes from Redstone Strategies directly to Santos personal bank account. Again.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay, so I have a question about contributor number 12. How did this person not notice that their credit card was being charged excessively by tens of thousands of dollars? Like, at my house, when I see, like, an Amazon charge for 999 that I don't recognize, I'm like, huh, so what's going on here?

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah, it's a good question. I wish I had an answer for you.

[Jake Halpern]

Okay.

[Nysa Woomer]

And I should say that there are two other donors who each made contributions of $25,000 to Redstone Strategies. That is a problem for multiple reasons. And Redstone Strategies was not set up to accept political contributions. It was not actually registered with the proper authorities.

[Jake Halpern]

Where does that money go?

[Nysa Woomer]

So they were told that money would go to pay for advertising, but it looks like that money, almost all of it so $50,000 total went directly to Santos's personal accounts. In the indictment, they say that that went to cash withdrawals, personal purchases of luxury designer clothing, credit card payments, a car payment, payments on personal debts. The House report gets even more specific. They claim that some of that $50,000 was actually spent at Hermes, the fancy Designer store. Over $4,000.

[Jake Halpern]

Right. Which is a legitimate business expense if you're going to convince donors at the Villa Gorilla that you are the man.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah, maybe he thought that that was justified. You know, so much of Santos campaign was trying to keep up appearances and court the Kathies of the world. Right. And show them that he was on their level. And so maybe he felt like he needed to engage in this kind of spending to keep up this Persona. By the time that that second indictment is out and the House ethics report has been published, a lot of people are just done with Jorge Santos. For at least some Republicans in Congress, they've seen enough and they have one more vote to oust him from Congress. In December of 2023, 2/3 voting in.

[Jake Halpern]

The affirmative, the resolution is adopted. The chair announces to the House that in light of the expulsion of the gentleman From New York, Mr. Santos, the whole number of the house is now 434. Hold up Amy. So what does this mean for Republicans in the House? Like what's going to happen with Santos seat?

[Nysa Woomer]

So there was actually already a special election held for Santos seat earlier this year and the Democrat won. So ultimately one less Republican in the House because of all of this.

[George Santos]

He was working in his own self interest and he succeeded bizarrely in becoming a congressman.

[Nysa Woomer]

You can still hear Kathy trying to make sense out of this, figuring out how this happened and who is to blame. More on that in a minute.

[N/A]

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[Ellie Hollander]

This episode of the Happiness Lab on the Joy of Giving is brought to you by the 2024 Subaru share the Love Event. There are lots of everyday things that bring us happiness, but few compare to enjoying a wholesome meal or seeing a friendly face. Sadly, these are simple pleasures too many of our seniors miss out on.

[N/A]

Most people don't realize that we have two epidemics going on concurrently in our country senior hunger and social isolation.

[Ellie Hollander]

This is Ellie Hollander, president and CEO of Meals on Wheels America.

[N/A]

So we deliver nutrition, but we talk about the power of Anak. There's someone coming in to check on those seniors, and they feel safe, more independent, and able to live out their best lives in the comfort of their own homes.

[Ellie Hollander]

Meals on Wheels calls this nourishment for the body and the soul, and Subaru is a big part of making it all possible. For 17 years, Subaru has made buying a car during the holiday season an act of love with the Subaru Share the Love event. From now until January 2nd, when you get a new Subaru, Subaru and its retailers will donate a minimum of $300 to charity. This generosity has helped Meals on Wheels make more than 4.6 million deliveries.

[N/A]

The relationship with Subaru is extraordinary. They're our number one automotive supporter, and they care. They always talk about the fact that they are more than just a car company, and Meals on Wheels is more more than just a meal.

[Ellie Hollander]

And Subaru's literally been putting the wheels in Meals on wheels by donating 50 delivery cars. But there's still so many more seniors needing help with waiting lists for people who have trouble shopping or cooking for themselves growing.

[N/A]

And those waiting lists average over 100 days, some as long as two years. So if people can donate, you can help end the wait for seniors who are looking for nourishing meals and friendly visits.

[Ellie Hollander]

The 2024 Subaru Share the Love event runs through January 2nd. To learn more, go to subaru.com/subaru More than a Car Company it's the night.

[Kathy Soref]

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[Nysa Woomer]

I was struck by one thing that Kathy said in particular towards the end of our conversation.

[George Santos]

He would never have won as himself. Which is another commentary on society. I mean, George in and of himself, he is a smart guy. I don't think he went to college, but in the future I think that college is going to be passe. And George, if he was left to what he could actually do, I mean, he's pretty smart and talented, but he didn't have the credentials. So he lied about his credentials and he didn't have the money. So he stole. Or I shouldn't say he stole. He's accused of stealing to, you know, it's the old Machiavellian means to an end.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow. He never would have won as himself is what she says. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, if I'm hearing her right, she's almost saying like maybe in some point in the future the things that he needed, like going to college is going to become passe. It's not going to be this kind of bar to entry. She's kind of seeing this future where some of the old benchmarks for what makes a good congressman or whatever are not there. And it's almost like she's saying he was ahead of his time and so he just had to lie to get around the kind of bars to entry that existed. But that he actually was smart enough and charming enough to that he had those kind of core aspects of what it would take, but he just couldn't get in because he didn't meet these other thresholds that we still insist upon. I don't know, it's like she's almost sympathetic to him in this moment.

[Nysa Woomer]

Oh, completely. And I found this fascinating because in this moment she's very self aware, I think, and that's what I hear is just, you know, society wouldn't have accepted him as himself.

[Jake Halpern]

It's interesting cause she says it's a commentary on society that society never would have accepted George for who he was. But what she's really saying is I never would have accepted George for who he was. I mean, in this case, she is the gatekeeper to this society.

[Nysa Woomer]

She is. Yeah.

[Jake Halpern]

She's the gatekeeper to this society completely. And I am certain, or I feel certain that George Santos understood that deep in his bones. And if that is true, I wonder if he held a contempt that fueled his ability and his willingness to brazenly lie.

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah, you're still. See, so you're still fixated on the why George Santos did this.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah. In the end, that's the question that I think is gonna. Yeah, that's the question that stays with me. At least. I keep thinking that, like, maybe there's kind of deeper explanations to what he did than maybe at first blush, it seems.

[Kathy Soref]

Yeah.

[Nysa Woomer]

Look, I think that it's interesting to parse that out, and we could spend the next 20 years arguing about the why.

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah.

[Nysa Woomer]

But for me, the more interesting question is how does something like this happen? Because I don't think understanding the psychology of Jorge Santos is going to prevent the next Jorge Santos. I think understanding the forces that put him in this position and allowed him to get away with seemingly so many lies and crimes without consequence for quite some time, that is the bigger issue to be addressing here. And so how do you prevent that from happening again? I mean, it's interesting. When Kathy first hears about the New York Times reporting, she's furious, but not even with Santos, as much as she's angry with the Republican Party in Nassau County. And one guy who is the head of the Republican Committee named Joe Cairo.

[George Santos]

Well, what the hell? What about picking up the goddamn telephone and calling Baruch, calling nyu, calling Goldman Sachs? And this was not the first campaign. This was the second campaign. And so to me, I mean, Joe Cairo should be fired out. You know, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I am furious with him. I mean, George pulled the wool over his eyes. It's like Mr. Ripley meets Catch me if you can.

[Nysa Woomer]

I asked Joe Cairo for comment about this. He conceded that there were some shortcomings in the vetting process. He once told a reporter, quote, I guess, unfortunately, we rely on the person to be truthful to us. But I will also say that there's no real requirement for these committees to vet members of Congress. So it really comes down to the parties and journalists and whoever else is paying attention to root out problems with these candidates who are running for office. And I think that that's what this story lays bare, that this is potentially a weak point in this whole process.

[Jake Halpern]

There are some federal jobs where they do vet people. I know I have a buddy who's a foreign service officer, and they did all kinds of background check on him. They even called me. I mean, there's a lot of federal government jobs where they vet people, but I guess this is not one of them. And it's interesting because Kathy, she's furious at Joe Cairo, the Republican operative who kind of made the introduction, because he didn't do this due diligence. And I get that on some Level like Kathy's job is to raise the money, it's not to vet the candidates. So she did her job, right? She opened her house, she called her friends, all this and that.

[Nysa Woomer]

Right? Because I think it goes further than that, that this was a personal relationship that she had with Jorge Santos. So she feels angry with the party for not vetting this guy better while also being sort of shocked that she's been lied to so extensively by this person that she trusted this guy that she let into her world.

[George Santos]

I'd never had anyone lie to me. So bald facedly.

[Jake Halpern]

When the scandal breaks, does she hear from George? Does he like call up to check in or anything?

[George Santos]

George was fishing around to see if I was going to be on his side and I said, I never want to speak to him again.

[Jake Halpern]

Wait, did she tell him that to his face?

[Nysa Woomer]

Kathy told me that one of Santos staffers reached out to her to kind of feel her out, but she says, in that moment, I'm done. I'm never talking to you again. It was clear to her she could see plainly that he had lied to her to her face, and she wasn't willing to tolerate that. I think Kathy really feels burned twice because she was duped by this guy, but also because she opened up her doors and her network and those people were also duped by Jorge Santos and she feels responsible. The moment for Kathy where I think this becomes incredibly serious is when the indictment comes down and she has to relive this all over again.

[George Santos]

Well, I was horrified. It was incredulous. I immediately wrote a letter of apology to my friends saying it was my responsibility for not doing my independent due diligence.

[Nysa Woomer]

You know, Kathy is clearly not happy with the Republican Party in New York. She made that extremely clear in our interview. But I think she also feels how a lot of people have felt. How did we not see it? There are numerous places in this story where you can feel like this is a story of the system working, right? That you have journalists and you have watchdog groups and you have investigators both within the House and within the Department of Justice that all do their jobs. And that's why we know as much as we know at this point about George Santos and the extent of his schemes. Right. I'm still stuck on the question of how did this go on for so long undetected.

[Jake Halpern]

I mean, cause like, look, and this is not to diminish, this is not to take away from any of the investigations that went on. But at the end of the day, the unraveling of this occurs by doing some very simple things. Calling up Baruch College and saying, hey, did this guy go here? Calling up Goldman Sachs and saying, did this guy work here? Or looking at his campaign finance records online, which are publicly available. Right. All of which is to say, this isn't Watergate. This isn't Deep Throat, where there's, like, some guy on a bench who's, like, revealing some secrets that otherwise would be totally inaccessible. This is information that is relatively accessible. And just for whatever reason, folks had not been picking up the phone and looking over the reports. And I'm not pointing a finger to anyone saying, oh, anyone failed, but I'm just noting that that's the thing that's so striking about this story. It's not that the information was inaccessible or contained by one impossible to access. It was just that no one bothered to pick up the phone. And that's kind of crazy.

[Nysa Woomer]

So. And this might surprise you, because it was surprising to me. Someone did pick up the phone, his own campaign, and a report was commissioned. Wait, and when.

[Jake Halpern]

Whoa, who. Sorry, this is crazy. Who commissioned this?

[Nysa Woomer]

In 2021, the Santos campaign commissioned a vulnerability report on their candidate. It's quite common in politics these days. You know, you would do opposition research where you're trying to learn about the other candidate. But there's also what they call a vulnerability study or a vulnerability report, which is, how can I best prepare for attacks that my opponent might make sure? And so the report cost nearly $17,000. The results come back, and they find a lot of the same things that had been laid out that would later come to light in the New York Times report.

[Jake Halpern]

Like what?

[Nysa Woomer]

Like that he had faced multiple evictions and that there was no record of his college degrees. So, again, like a lot of the. A lot of the things that we, the public, would learn about in December of 2022 were known to his campaign over a year prior.

[Jake Halpern]

Wow.

[Nysa Woomer]

There's reporting to indicate that members of his team left after that report came through. And Santos maintained to his team at that time that he had diplomas that he could show them. It's the same familiar Santos refrain of I have answers, I have receipts. But that never materializes. And so throughout this story, there are so many moments of when this whole thing could have collapsed because there were people who knew and walked away and washed their hands of it and for whatever reason did not come forward to out this guy.

[Jake Halpern]

I mean, if you thought. I mean, now I understand why Kathie gets so mad for not vetting him. Also, $17,000. Amy yes, we should say call out your listeners. We here at Deep Cover will do it for one quarter of that price.

[Nysa Woomer]

We will call Baruch College for a fraction of that.

[Jake Halpern]

You give me 500 bucks and I will call all the places the guy claimed to work and tell you if that's not true and you'll have it back in six hours.

[Nysa Woomer]

I know. I really want to talk to somebody who worked on that report. So these are still like, I still have questions here, right?

[Jake Halpern]

Yeah.

[Nysa Woomer]

I mean, I was really hoping that this would go to trial so we could air out all of the specifics. Like, who is contributor number 12, right? I don't know that I'll get an answer to that.

[Jake Halpern]

I'm wondering, you said you talked to Kathy after this. What's her feeling? Because she said she was expecting to testify. So how does she feel about. How did she feel about the plea?

[Nysa Woomer]

Yeah. So I actually wasn't sure if Kathy was gonna speak with me again, but I got her on the phone this morning.

[George Santos]

It was good news for me that George pleaded guilty on Monday because now I don't have to go and testify. Good thing that George went ahead and wasn't so arrogant as to continue this and that. At least he's fessing up and, you know, hopefully he will serve his sentence, be repentant, and hopefully he'll learn his lesson and we'll stop lying, cheating, and stealing.

[Nysa Woomer]

If he apologized to you, would you forgive him?

[George Santos]

Not now. Not now. You know, you don't again, you don't believe him until it's like you want to see what he actually does.

[Jake Halpern]

This series was produced by Amy Gaines, McQuaid, Izzy Carter and Joey Fishground. Our editor is Karen Shakerji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Mastering by Jake Gorski. Fact checking by Annika Robbins. Our show art was designed by Sean Carney. Music in this series is from Luis Guerra, Jake Gorski, and Epidemic Sound. Special thanks to Sara Nix, Eric Sandler, Sarah Bruguer, Carrie Brody, Jake Flanagan, Lydia Jean Cott, Jordan McMillan, Ben Nadav, Haffrey, Kira Posey, Owen Miller, Christina Sullivan, Sophie Crane, Faraday grunge and Greta Cohen. Additional thanks to Switchinboard Studio, Janelle Forsyth, Britta Galanis, Jason McQuaid and Karen Gaines. I'm Jake Halpern.

[Ellie Hollander]

The holiday season is back, which means it's a time for giving. Subaru and its retailers believe in giving back to those who need it most. For the past 17 years, Subaru has made the act of buying a Subaru during the holiday season an act of love when you purchase or lease a new Subaru. During the Subaru Share the Love event, Subaru and its retailers donate a minimum of $300 to charity. By the end of this year's event, Subaru and its retailers will have donated nearly $320 million to national and hometown charities. To learn More, go to subaru.com/subaru More than a car Company it's the night.

[Kathy Soref]

Before Christmas and all through the house, not a creature is stirring. Except you, because you forgot to lock the front door. Have you been there? Not anymore. With the MyQ app, you can lock your doors from bed or set them to lock every night automatically. Out holiday shopping and your parents show up unannounced, send them a code for the MYQ Smart lock while you finish shopping. From welcoming surprise visitors to securing your home during holiday travels, MyQ's got your back. Ready to boost your home's IQ this holiday season? Head to MyQ.com for many of us.

[N/A]

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