Snowball - Episode 4: Charmed

Summary

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball — Episode 4: Charmed

Pushkin Industries | Released November 24, 2025
Host: Olly Wards

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Main Theme

In Episode 4, "Charmed," Olly Wards delves deep into the labyrinthine fantasy world created by Californian con woman Leslie Mnookian, focusing on a bizarre subplot involving a supposed celebrity-studded book and movie deal. Through a trove of emails, Olly exposes how Leslie built intricate fictions—not just to charm, but to conspire, covering her tracks with a cast of invented assistants, lawyers, and even Hollywood stars. This episode explores the purpose and psychology behind these deceptions and marks the beginning of Olly’s on-the-ground investigation in the US and Lake Tahoe, searching for tangible truths about Leslie’s elusive past.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Book and Movie Deal Fantasy

• Olly discovers, through Leslie’s emails, an elaborate story involving a memoir, a film adaptation, and a supporting cast of characters—all apparently invented by Leslie.
• Central to this scheme is “Eric T. Weiss,” Leslie’s supposed entertainment lawyer, who claims a roster of celebrity clients and orchestrates book and movie deals for Leslie.

Notable Quote:
“Lesley wrote that in her divorce letter to my brother Greg. It's like she was toying with him... Leslie does draw blurry lines between fantasy and reality."
— Olly Wards [02:28]

• Emails refer to negotiations with real publishers (e.g., Simon & Schuster), a film to be shot by Sony, and actress Alyssa Milano set to play Leslie.
• Details are layered, with mentions of negotiations, legal threats, and script rewrites—making the fantasy nearly airtight for observers.

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2. The Call Sheet: A Fictional Cast of Characters

• The emails introduce Eric’s "assistants" (like Jackie, out for a hysterectomy) and a "ghostwriter" named Scooter, each with backstories and direct conversations with Lesley’s family.
• Olly notes the soap-operatic detail in the storylines, even down to mundane logistics and personal anecdotes, making the web more convincing.

Memorable Moment:
“It’s like a soap opera in Lesley’s inbox… If Lesley was creating all these characters then in a weird way it’s almost like she was writing a book. But it’s just a fictional world created in emails.”
— Olly Wards [12:22–14:23]

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3. The Real Purpose: Money and Evasion

• The emails often revolve around royalty payments and cash advances that never materialize.
• Eric's emails explain away missed payments, systems delays, and make excuses for Leslie's mounting debts—to her own parents, creditors, and banks.

Notable Quote:
“Eric is like a buffer between Lesley and her parents. If money owed to Lesley’s parents is delayed, Eric has a good reason.”
— Olly Wards [19:43]

• Olly links this web of fiction directly to Leslie’s need to buy time, excuse absent funds, and maintain credibility with increasingly skeptical family members.

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4. The "Eric T. Weiss" Revelation

• Upon closer examination, and following up on mysterious CC’d emails, Olly uncovers that Eric’s Gmail account uses the same password as Leslie’s, suggesting a single person behind both personas.

Key Exchange:
Olly: “So you’re saying that the password you were using for Lesley’s emails is exactly the same password that logs in to the account for Eric T. Weiss, which is a Gmail account. So it’s the same password, two different accounts?”
Father: “Yes.”
[25:37–25:56]

• This is a eureka moment for Olly and the family: the intricate world of lawyers and assistants is traced back to Leslie herself, casting doubt on all correspondence involving Eric.

Reaction:
“It’s crazier than I thought it was. So there it is. Eric and Leslie had the same email password. Ladies and gentlemen, Leslie Houdini. The Great Houdini.”
— Olly Wards [26:00–26:36]

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5. Family Motives and Search for Closure

• Olly discusses with his parents and brother Greg their hopes, disappointments, and search for closure, reflecting on the emotional wake Leslie left behind.
• The family’s main concern is neither revenge nor compensation, but understanding and acknowledgment of the damage Leslie caused.

Poignant Quotes:
“What I would really like is for her to acknowledge that she’s caused a lot of strife, to basically understand what she’s done and to try and not do things like this in the future.”
— Olly’s father [31:04]

“An apology would be nice. Before dad packed up the big box of Leslie docs, he had one last ditch idea about how to tie up some loose ends. Dad pitched this story to America’s TV drama magnate, Dr. Phil.”
— Olly & Greg [31:32]

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6. The US Road Trip: Chasing Leslie’s Past

• Olly, joined by his brother Simon, lands in California to trace Leslie’s early business ventures and personal history.
• Visiting Leslie’s childhood home and old bars, they discover a consistent pattern: unpaid bills, evictions, and failed businesses that mirror the collapse in New Zealand and Hawaii.

Notable Moment:
Marina Manager on Leslie: “She ran it into the ground, she didn’t pay rent and we had to evict her.”
— Recapped by Olly [47:11]

• They analyze court documents reflecting the Mnookians' entanglement in rent disputes, suggesting the parents’ involvement in the Tahoe bar business was more than passive.

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7. Patterns and Open Questions

• Olly questions if Leslie’s parents are just victims or potential enablers, noting their names on business registrations and court filings.

“Are Lesley’s parents just hapless victims in all this? Or are they turning a blind eye to what Lesley does?”
— Olly Wards [48:16]

• The episode ends with a new lead: a glowing review for Leslie’s next venture, a restaurant in Paso Robles, setting the stage for the next leg of Olly’s investigation.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• “You’ll never really know what was real or not.” — Leslie (via Betty), [02:28]
• “Sony cannot go forward with the movie until the book has been released. I have recommended that they film in Sun Valley...” — “Eric T. Weiss” (voice actor), [07:36]
• “Alyssa Milano has signed on.” — Betty, [08:11]
• “Leslie is prepared to use fake personas. So tracking her down and working out what's real and what's not could be more difficult than I thought.” — Olly Wards, [28:55]
• "She ran it into the ground, she didn't pay rent and we had to evict her." — Marina manager, summarized by Olly [47:11]
• “There it is. Eric and Leslie had the same email password. Ladies and gentlemen, Leslie Houdini.” — Olly Wards, [26:35]
• “It’s like a soap opera in Lesley’s inbox.” — Olly Wards, [12:22–14:23]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:11] — Introduction of voice actors for email characters
• [03:31] — Discovery of Leslie’s supposed book deal
• [04:12] — Introduction of Eric T. Weiss character
• [07:36] — Movie adaptation fiction and Alyssa Milano’s involvement
• [13:12] — The ghostwriter "Scooter"
• [17:49] — Analysis of motives: money, evasion, and family manipulation
• [25:37] — Revelation: Eric and Leslie’s email accounts share a password
• [31:04] — Family’s wish for acknowledgment and apology
• [34:41] — Start of the US road trip; reflections on family motives
• [40:05] — Tahoe courthouse visit; evidence of unpaid bills and evictions
• [47:11] — Marina manager recounts Leslie’s business downfall
• [48:22] — Discovery of Leslie’s next restaurant venture and preview of next investigation steps

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Episode Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is investigative but conversational, blending the emotional stakes of personal loss and deception with Olly's wry, self-deprecating humor. The show is unflinching about the damage done by Leslie, but also fascinated by her creative reinventions and the surreal invention of her alter egos.

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Summary

Episode 4, "Charmed," vividly exposes the extent and complexity of Leslie Mnookian’s deceptions—intertwining make-believe stardom with real-world consequences. Olly's investigation reveals not just the technical tricks Leslie employed, but the emotional effects on those around her, especially her family, who remain trapped in the uncertainty of what was real. As the curtain lifts on Leslie's invented Hollywood fantasy, Olly sets off across California to unpick the true story behind the con—one small-town court document and skeptical marina manager at a time, with more revelations promised to come.

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For the next stage: Olly’s search for Leslie leads him to Paso Robles, chasing fresh clues and fresh questions about whether closure is possible for any of her victims.

Transcript

[Olly Wardes]

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[Olly Wardes]

In this episode, we've used voice actors for Lesley and her parents, as well as her mysterious lawyer, Henry Eric T. Weiss and his staff.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

I'm sorry that now you'll never really know what was real or not.

[Olly Wardes]

Leslie wrote that in her divorce letter to my brother Greg. It's like she was toying with him.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

You'll never really know what was real or not.

[Olly Wardes]

Leslie does draw blurry lines between fantasy and reality. She just probably wouldn't have expected anyone to start reading between those lines. But that's what I'm doing now, and I've uncovered what I reckon is the strangest part of this whole story. I've found something completely bizarre in all those emails. In the box of Leslie docs that my dad kept, they reveal Leslie had a book deal with a big time publisher to tell the story of her Life.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Well, I am going to start on the book next week.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

He believes you would be great at script writing.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Oh, my head is spinning.

[Olly Wardes]

Welcome to Unravel Season four. I'm Olly Wardes and this is Snowball. So Lesley was writing an autobiography, like some kind of memoir of her crazy life. There's heaps of details about it in her emails. And who's handling the ins and outs of Lesley's book deal. Once again, enter Leslie's lawyer, her old mate, Eric T. Weiss.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

As your lawyer, I'm starting to.

[Olly Wardes]

This is the Eric who wrote a letter to Kiwibank confirming that Leslie had a big trust fund and he happens to be the namesake of the great Harry Houdini. Eric sends emails to Lesley as he negotiates her book deal.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

If you are willing to sign a contract that they will be your publisher for 10 years, this will allot you to begin on the other three books we have talked about. And you will only be on yours and Simon and Schuster's schedule.

[Olly Wardes]

And this is where the extra glitz really starts getting sprinkled. Eric T. Weiss isn't just a financial kind of dude who deals with trust fund admin. He's apparently a big shot entertainment lawyer. That's his main job.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

I am an entertainment attorney that has been in the business for over 20 years and have worked with many production companies, celebrities and musicians.

[Olly Wardes]

I guess that explains why Eric runs into so many famous names. Like in that note Leslie made in her travel diary that she left in NZ.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

May 3, New York. Eric met George Clooney, Julia Roberts, private jet from Dallas.

[Olly Wardes]

Movie stars and private jets. I like to imagine Eric T. Weiss as like a smarmy la showbiz type guy. Kind of arrogant like Ari Gold from Entourage, but shonky like Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad. I imagine him in a suit with a loud, colourful tie and I reckon he's got a comb over.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

I have not been in my office during the days due to the fact that I have been defending a celebrity case. Right now it is confidential, so I cannot say who.

[Olly Wardes]

So why is this celebrity lawyer working with Leslie then? Well, from what I can see in these emails, Eric claims to be lining Leslie up to be as rich and famous as the rest of his crowd.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Until you become famous, you are a nobody in this industry. But you already know that it will be worth it one day, Leslie. So do not get depressed. Continue to be strong and remember what the end result will bring. You will be financially secure for life and you'll be able to buy your dad that hummer you keep talking about.

[Olly Wardes]

Eric is really encouraging to Lesley, like he's beyond what you would expect a lawyer to be. Which is good, because as Leslie explains to her parents, writing a book is hard.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

The whole last ten chapters of the book that was redone has been denied due to the fact that it is too simple, similar to a story that was written by an author about 10 years ago. Oh, my head is spinning. But Eric said that lawyers are constantly finding books that are too similar and must avoid a lawsuit. That is why they are hired as in house attorneys. He said it happens all the time and we must rewrite it in a different wording.

[Olly Wardes]

So when I read these emails about Lesley getting a memoir published, I thought, well, that takes things up a notch. But that's not even the big picture, because that book about the story of Leslie's life was supposedly going to be made into a movie.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Sony cannot go forward with the movie until the book has been released. I have recommended that they film in Sun Valley, Idaho, which has the same picturesque setting as Tahoe.

[Olly Wardes]

I just can't believe how deep this world goes. So we've got Eric T. Weiss, Esquire, talking through the details of a movie about Leslie based on a book by Leslie. And that's not all. Leslie told her parents that for the big screen version, a big name was lined up to play her.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

The movie script has been accepted in flying colors. Alyssa Milano has signed on.

[Olly Wardes]

Pretty good casting. Remember Alyssa Milano from Charmed? Or as the daughter Arnie goes on a rampage for in Commando? She has long dark hair like Leslie's. Good choice.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Alyssa Milano will be an NZ in November. She's going to hang out with me for a week or two to know my personality. Study it. So I'll have to be on vacation from Greg and his family at that time. I hope we have a house by then so I do not have to sneak around his family. Eric said that I will be getting paid starting July.

[Olly Wardes]

Sounds like some real method acting from Melissa Milano taking on the role of Leslie. Ever since I read these emails, I can't stop wondering what a movie about Leslie would be like in a world where one woman's fantasies come.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Welcome to life.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Private chats from Dallas this summer.

[Olly Wardes]

Alyssa Milano is Leslie Mnookian in the Girl with the Dragonfly Tattoo. So obviously that movie never came out because it's fictional. Fictional in the sense that it didn't exist. That goes for the book, too. I got in touch with Simon and Schuster, the book publisher. I was curious, even though I knew what they would say. And yeah, they've never heard of Leslie Minookian or Eric T. Weiss, Esquire. I also hit up Alyssa Milano's manager. Ditto. Alyssa's manager actually told me after I called and explained all this to her. Both she and Alyssa googled Lesley. They found something about a restaurant and Alyssa Milano was like, I was supposed to play a chef. So it's all a fantasy. But the amazing thing about this bizarro world is just how detailed it is. There's this whole cast of characters. It's not just Eric. There's ghostwriters, agents, publishers. There's even drama between these people.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

We are having legal problems with James. He is not satisfied with any of the book and is threatening to sue Simon and Schuster if they do not present better writing. Can you believe this jerk?

[Olly Wardes]

He has nothing to do with it besides his name.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

And he is the one making threats. As your lawyer, I am starting to make threats.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Also.

[Olly Wardes]

Eric has so much going on making things happen for Leslie that he has his own team around him.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Hi, Leslie. Hope this email finds you well. At the moment, I am back in Bangkok still dealing with legal issues. Charlie rang me last night and things are changing again. I realize that you are being tossed around and I wish I could make this process easier on you. As of now, you are to remain in the UK and Alyssa is going to meet you in London for the entire month of June to get to know you personally.

[Olly Wardes]

I think Charlie is one of his assistants. And sometimes Eric gets so busy that another assistant, Jackie, takes control of his Gmail account. Good afternoon, Mrs. Mnookian and Mr. Manookian. I'm writing on behalf of Eric. He has had to fly out for an important meeting and had hoped to be back by this afternoon, but is delayed until tomorrow morning. Thank you for your patience, Jackie. EA for Eric Weiss. Then Eric even has to come back in and explain where Jackie has gone.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Dear Betty and Andy, I am very sorry for not being in touch sooner. Everything here has been very hectic. I have been handling legal problems and Jackie is going to be out for at least three months. She has had to have a hysterectomy.

[Olly Wardes]

So many specific details. A hysterectomy. It's like a soap opera in Lesley's inbox. This isn't where I thought this trailer would take me, but I'm kinda into learning about these characters. Leslie even has a ghost rider called Scooter.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Scooter came in to see me last night. It was like old times seeing him at the bar. He really has a great personality once you get to know him. After a couple of glasses of port he was talking to all the other people around him.

[Olly Wardes]

Scooter was helping to write Leslie's book and movie script. He was apparently even in New Zealand with Leslie, but of course Greg never met him. That's a shame because Scooter sounded like he was having a good time.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

I spoke to Scooter. He is loving nz. He said it is starting to get cold, winter is approaching but everyone is so friendly and helpful. He's already made a couple of friends and he is shocked that no one is pretentious or snobby. All classes of people hang out with each other, he said. There is no elite crowd. He also said that he has never slept so peaceful and it is very quiet around his home. He has never been so at ease with himself. He sounded so calm and clear headed. He asked about you and dad and says hello.

[Olly Wardes]

I keep asking myself are these characters too detailed to be fake? And I guess that's the purpose of all these subplots and characters. There's just so much banal detail it's hard to imagine someone making it up. If Lesley was creating all these characters then in a weird way it's almost like she was writing a book. But it's just a fictional world created in emails.

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[Olly Wardes]

So the big question about all of this book and movie stuff is why? As detailed and complex as this fake world is, I reckon Lesley probably invented it to serve a few purposes. Firstly, most of these emails in some way or another, are about money. Like here Eric is hustling royalty payments for Lesley.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

I have notified Sony that you are to receive income starting June 15th at the amount of $3,500 per month, and I have sent a written threat to Simon and Schuster that you are to receive $2,000 a month until the book.

[Olly Wardes]

Is finished it looks like Eric's emails are a useful way for Lesley to show people that she's either going to have some big cash money payments coming in any day now, or to explain why some money hasn't arrived. And then these emails are forwarded on to whoever Leslie owes money to. And sort of. Sadly, the main target of a lot of the smoke and mirrors seems to be Lesley's own parents. Eric even writes directly to them.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Hi Andrew and Betty. It has been over two months since our last emails to one another. I hope that everything is alright. It has been a long journey for me in Bangkok, an experience I hope to forget. My stomach is still groaning from the food and I have actually lost quite a bit of weight.

[Olly Wardes]

That's the big shot lawyer telling his client's parents about his travel stomach. Aside from the small talk, one of the main things Eric emails Betty and Andrew about is royalty money. Royalty money they're expecting from these book and movie deals. And that's convenient because we know that around this time they said that they were in deep shit debt and Lesley owed them money. But when these royalties don't come in, Eric has to explain.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Leslie has been on my tail about the pre royalty payments from Simon and Schuster and Sony. I have your scan of bank details and I am working on this as fast as possible.

[Olly Wardes]

Eric is like a buffer between Lesley and her parents. If money owed to Lesley's parents is delayed, Eric has a good reason. Or he steps in when she's not covering a bill. Like while Lesley was in New Zealand she had a speedboat in storage back in America. Fees were racking up and and her parents started getting calls about all the bills. So Eric comes to the rescue.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Thank you for following up with the boat. In Leslie's defense, I know that they were notified and kept up to date on the situation. We are just not sure who it was that fed us the info on the storage fees. But why beat a dead horse? Let's just get to the root of the problem and move on.

[Olly Wardes]

As well as explaining money stuff to Betty and Andrew, Eric serves a purpose of weirdly vouching for Leslie.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Have a nice night and I look forward to settling this matter for you and Andrew. And let's leave Leslie in New Zealand where no one can hurt her or her character. She is a great girl who is just too nice and too trusting. But these are the qualities that people love most about her.

[Olly Wardes]

I guess if you have a character covering for you for not paying bills and stuff, why not have them pump up your reeboks and talk you up as a person too. Wherever in the world there is trouble with Lesley, Eric swings in with an explanation.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Lake Tahoe next to Hawaii is one of the most corrupt communities I have done research on.

[Olly Wardes]

Maybe that takes the heat off Leslie when her parents hear bits and pieces contradicting her stories. And throughout it all it does look like at least Betty thinks Eric and his assistants and all the book chat and even Eric's Bangkok travel gut are real. Here's what Betty wrote back to Jackie.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

So glad that Eric is okay.

[Olly Wardes]

If you can say what he is.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Experiencing is okay, maybe he's the one.

[Olly Wardes]

Who should write a book.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Well, hope he gets back soon safe and sound again.

[Olly Wardes]

Thanks for all your help and keeping.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Us up to date. Date Betty.

[Olly Wardes]

I feel like every time I read through these emails dad cut and pasted into word docs, I figure out another piece of the puzzle. The other day as I read them again, I started to realise something. A lot of these emails are directly between Eric and Lesley's parents. For ages I just figured that they had ended up in this box because Betty must have forwarded them to Lesley or she was cc'd. Dad usually didn't take screenshots, he just copy pasted the text. So there's often only from and to names and a date. But now I'm thinking, hang on, it's weird. How many of these direct emails between Eric and Betty and Andrew we have? How did my dad see these ones in Lesley's account? Were they really all forwarded on to Lesley? Sometimes they're even talking about Lesley in these emails. Like here Eric tells Betty and Andrew he's not going to make it to the event in New Zealand.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

I am not sure I will make it for Leslie's wedding. I have not told her yet since I do not want to disappoint her.

[Olly Wardes]

Am I missing something? So I ask dad. There's emails that are directly from Eric to Leslie's parents and it's like she's not on cc. So I don't understand how you have those emails.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I was also getting emails. I was spying, if you like, on Eric's emails as well as Lesley's.

[Olly Wardes]

How did that happen?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Because it's at one stage this is when I started thinking that Lesley seemed to be using Eric as her kind of alter ego or something. And I started to think about that and then I was thinking, well if she is Eric, then maybe I can look at Eric's emails with her password. And I did and it worked.

[Olly Wardes]

Why didn't you tell me this. When we were talking about the. Eric should have told you this. Um, he definitely didn't. I think I would remember that. When I went back to New Zealand to start this investigation, I asked dad to step me through everything chronologically. We mustn't have got to that bit. I'm sure I've told you, like, I've been through this whole thing trying to find the real Eric T. Weiss and the dude in Michigan and all that stuff. How long after you. You contacted him, and how long after you started accessing Lesley's email?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Before I. Before I twigged. I can remember where I was in the basement there. And it was a bit of a breakthrough moment, as you can imagine. And I still find it odd that she went to the great lengths, as she did, if, in fact, Eric is her, that his emails to her. He emailed her as well, of course, giving her advice, and she emailed him telling him how terrible things were and blah, blah, blah. And so I thought Eric did exist, and it wasn't. And I still wouldn't write that off, even though the password seems to hang about as being the same.

[Olly Wardes]

So you're saying that the password that you were using for Lesley's emails is exactly the same password that logs in to the account for Eric T. Weiss, which is a Gmail account. So it's the same password, two different accounts?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yes. And the fact is.

[Olly Wardes]

Oh, my God. I just. I can't believe that I've been. That I've. That I haven't nailed this yet. You know, I've been working on this thing for eight months, and it turns out that you had access to Eric T. Weiss's inbox as well as Leslie's. Like, don't you think that's crucial?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Like, I'm sure I told you.

[Olly Wardes]

I'm sure I told you. I am just absolutely, like, obviously you didn't get it. Leslie is Eric. I am just.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah.

[Olly Wardes]

Like, I don't even know what to make of this whole thing now. It's crazier than I thought it was. So there it is. Eric and Leslie had the same email password. Ladies and gentlemen, Leslie Houdini. The Great Houdini. After reading all these emails over and over, wondering about whether the people in them are real or not, I kind of feel like I know the gang. Eric. Jackie. Scooter. Dad says the emails from Eric's account slowed down. After a while, Eric and the gang's story started to come to an end.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

I am working long hours trying to get these contracts back in place. Not to mention I am getting tired of the music scene. It is grueling hours and most of the bands that I represent are immature punks whose heads are up their rears. I found out today that Jackie has been put on permanent disability and will definitely not be coming back to work. So Scooter is going to help me out three days a week.

[Olly Wardes]

Jackie. The EA's hysterectomy mustn't have gone well. Okay, so now we know pretty much for certain that this whole world really is in Leslie's imagination. So if Leslie created and played the role of Eric and Jackie and Scooter, and probably more I don't even know about it just seems so weird, the lengths she went to to deceive her own parents. At the very least, Betty seems totally convinced that Eric is real. And to be fair, other people were convinced by Leslie's world along the way. Even Kiwibank. It feels like Leslie herself might be so far into this fantasy that she sort of believes in it. Or at least she uses the characters to create an ideal version of herself in a world that she had liked to live in.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

Scooter feels that you have what it takes to be be a wonderful writer. He believes you would be great at script writing.

[Olly Wardes]

It makes me think, am I trying to understand something more complicated with Lesley than where I first started? Lesley doesn't just use fake documents. It looks like Lesley is prepared to use fake Personas. So tracking her down and working out what's real and what's not could be more difficult than I thought. But I have to give it a go. I need to get onto Lesley's home turf. I need to go to the us. I can only find out more about what's real by playing an away game. This is a trip my family has always wondered about. Every time there was an airfare to Los Angeles, that was a good price. We'd think, let's get on that and go and find her. Before I get on a plane, I want to understand what they would want as closure. Years ago, I remember Mum saying she was tempted to want some sort of revenge. I asked her about that. Oh, no, I wouldn't say revenge was the word.

[Eric T. Weiss (Lesley's lawyer persona)]

What?

[Olly Wardes]

Really? In the early days, I just thought, you poor silly woman, what have you done? No, it was never revenge. It was to get Greg healed. To be in something like this, you feel like you've got to have the last word. Maybe to see that they haven't destroyed you, but to let them have a moment of discomfort. And while my dad Spent years investigating this himself. He wasn't after revenge either, just answers.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I wasn't revengeful or really wanting compensation. If there was some available, I wouldn't turn it down, of course. But the prime goal was to figure out what the heck was going on here.

[Olly Wardes]

Dad found out a surprising amount of stuff from my auntie's basement in Auckland, but eventually he had to put it all aside and get a job.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I had to pull finger and do something, you know.

[Olly Wardes]

You had retired?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah, I had retired, really. So I had to sort of rejig my life a bit there. What I would really like is for her to acknowledge that she's caused a lot of strife, to basically understand what she's done and to try and not do things like this in the future.

[Olly Wardes]

And my brother Greg would like to hear Leslie say sorry. Oh, I wouldn't mind getting an apology. Well, not for me, but for Mum and Dad. Yeah, an apology would be nice. Before dad packed up the big box of Leslie docs, he had one last ditch idea about how to tie up some loose ends. Dad pitched this story to America's TV drama magnate and moustache enthusiast, Dr. Phil. The letter he wrote is five pages long and there's a bunch of attachments. I thought my bro Simon might be interested in seeing it. Simon, you know how dad was pretty obsessed with investigating this whole thing? Did you know he actually, actually wrote a letter to Dr. Phil pitching our story?

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Are you serious? Have you got any? Have you got any?

[Olly Wardes]

Look, this is it here. It's in Comic Sans font.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Oh, my God, it's so 80s.

[Olly Wardes]

And I really like the top line of it. It says, a tale of deception, fraud, narcissism and devastation. That's my impression of that.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

It's straight off the bat, like, intense.

[Olly Wardes]

That's brilliant. What do you think of my impression of Dad?

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

I mean, yeah, I know what you're getting at. Like, slightly exaggerated, but pretty spot on.

[Olly Wardes]

Even though I'm now investigating this story for Australia's national broadcaster, every time I call dad, he still brings up getting our story. And Lesley on Dr. Phil.

[Lesley Mnookian]

You know, mum was looking at Dr. Phil the other day and Mum and I were saying she needs to get on Dr. Phil.

[Olly Wardes]

I don't know why you're obsessed with Dr. Phil. Well.

[Lesley Mnookian]

He gets to the bottom of things.

[Olly Wardes]

I'm getting to the bottom of things.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I know you are.

[Olly Wardes]

I may not be Dr. Phil, but I'm going to back that up and get answers for my family. It's time to get on a plane to the.

[Justin Richmond]

Descent and into LA itself.

[Olly Wardes]

Greg isn't coming with me to the us And I get that he wants answers and an apology for what Lesley did to him, but he doesn't want to wade that far back into this part of his life. All right, Touchdown usa. Here I am in la. Every time I come here, I kind of think about doing the mission that I'm about to set off on. Going to find Leslie and hear her side of the story. It's just unreal to actually be doing it this time. The lead up to this trip has been kind of nerve wracking. I felt like I needed some support, so my other brother Simon is coming for backup. I meet up with him at the airport. Oh, there he is. There's my boy.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Here's my bro.

[Olly Wardes]

Simon arriving after what, a 15 hour flight? He looks pretty fresh. Easy to look fresh when you got no hair, though. How are you, man?

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

That's horrible. Layover in Fiji for eight hours is pretty, pretty tight.

[Olly Wardes]

Just good to see you, eh? You too, bro. The plan is to jump in a car and work our way through the places I think Leslie might have lived. When I show Simon the car that I've hired, he's not best pleased that I went for the economy hatchback, so he insists on an upgrade.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

We've got a muscle car. We've got a 2019 Dodge Challenger here.

[Olly Wardes]

It looks like a stingray on wheels. Yeah.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

But I kind of feel like a pack of cocks as well. Is it part of that, Part of that going on? You know what I mean?

[Olly Wardes]

It's definitely a. People will look at it and kind of go, are you trying to enhance something here?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Oh, yeah.

[Olly Wardes]

It's not the most inconspicuous car to be driving around in. As we try to sniff out information. The first rule of trying to be a detective is incognito look stylish. Our first stop is to cruise by the house Leslie grew up in. I just want to understand where she really comes from. We're just gonna, like, kind of park, maybe even just here, which is right on the corner. We need to kind of figure out which house it is actually. Let's just do a drive by. So how would you describe this area, man?

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Well, to be fair, like, it's not exactly what you'd. It doesn't scream trust fund.

[Olly Wardes]

This place is exactly how my brother Greg first described it. It's classic Middle America. Houses close together, grassy front yards without fences. We pull up across the road. There's a blue and a red car parked in the driveway. So, no, that's.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

It's the house beside there.

[Olly Wardes]

Ol.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

It's the one up there. Okay, mate. First rule of a stalk out, suss out which house it is. So it's the one beside that.

[Olly Wardes]

Now we're looking at the right house. It doesn't look like anyone's home. Lesley had used this address a lot over the years. Like, it's the home with that phone number given to Kiwibank that was supposedly for Eric T. Weiss. Someone in this house apparently took the bank's call to vouch for Lesley's trust fund. Betty and Andrew might still live here, but we figure it's too early to try and talk to them. I need to find Leslie first. If she had warning I'm out here looking for her, she could go to ground and I might never find her. At different times, Leslie's lived all over the state of California. And what I think was Lesley's first bar before New Zealand, before Hawaii. Her first business ever, as far as I can tell, was up the top of the state in a place called Tahoe. That's where we're going to start knocking on doors. So we head off on the long drive north. I have to say, you've made a pretty unusual choice of snacks, bro. I mean, like, who gets banana chips and beef jerky, man?

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Well, I wanted to stay away from sugar, but so I've just gone to. I don't know. I don't know what you'd call it, to tell you the truth.

[Olly Wardes]

I don't know. Just beef jerky's just. It's like eating a belt.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Have you tried that?

[Olly Wardes]

Yeah, it's gross.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

No, it's actually edible.

[Olly Wardes]

It's leather. Give me some. Give me some chips. Yeah, we have to stop again sometime. After some bad snacks and a long drive, the palm trees give way to pine trees as we climb in altitude. And high up in the mountains, we finally spot Lake Tahoe. Wow, this is a beautiful spot. I'm sitting on a boulder at a mountain but pass. There's snow on the ground all around me. Pine trees in the distance, rolling hills have snow all over them. And out to my left, I can see the shimmering blue of Lake Tahoe. And we've come here because this is where Leslie owned her first bar, the Breakwater, which is what the one in Hawaii was named after. And Simon's taking a picture of the lake next to me. Simon.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

We've come to busting at a selfie, but okay.

[Olly Wardes]

Well, it was 20 years ago that Lesley was here. It's quite A transient town. There's a lot of sort of tourist operators. It's seasonal. So in my inquiries so far, I've actually found it quite hard to speak to anybody that was here in the early 2000s.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Is there anybody?

[Olly Wardes]

I've been told that the guy who sort of runs the place that Leslie had her business remembers things, and I was told that.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

And so he's still about?

[Olly Wardes]

Yeah, he said through somebody else that he didn't want to talk because he thought Leslie runs with a pretty dodgy crowd and he was a bit scared.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Okay, well, what's he gonna be like once we turn him on his doorstep?

[Olly Wardes]

Oh, have to be nice. Before we start talking to the locals, though, I've got some documents I want to look at. Walking into the El Dorado court, taking a shortcut over some snow. I've searched the court records online. It seems like there might have been some drama here as well. And Simon's just pulled up to pick me up. Got a couple of papers to talk him through that I managed to get from in there.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Hey, man. So what's the goss?

[Olly Wardes]

So there was about eight cases versus the Minookians that come up on the online search. But it's important to note that these didn't end up in a judgment, so there was some sort of settlement before they went too far. But these files were put through to the court, and they basically look like Leslie and Andrew, because he was the licensee of the Breakwater in Tahoe, weren't paying their rent.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

But when you say Andrew, you mean her dad?

[Olly Wardes]

Her dad, yeah. There's been at least a couple of times where they got served a notice. And I'll just read it out to you. Please take notice that you were in default of payment in rent in the estimated amount of $11,519. This is the kind of thing that happened in New Zealand and Hawaii. So the pattern goes back 20 years. The interesting thing is this time her parents might have been involved in the business. Their names are on the paperwork as managers and licensees of the bar. To me, this just says that there was perhaps not the slickest of management of the Breakwater in Tahoe. And it's reminiscent of the Dragonfly, for sure. Sort of having bills not being paid and people chasing them.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Yeah, it was exactly the same. People were serving notices all over the show.

[Olly Wardes]

But these documents can only tell me bits and pieces. I want to talk to the landlords who were chasing that rent from Lesley. Her bar was in a marina, a group of shops and restaurants. Right on Lake Tahoe. So we head over to the marina to see who we can find. This is the spot where the Breakwater was. There's the Artemis Cafe here, which is where the Breakwater was. I'm looking at it now. It's kind of got a log cabin feel to it. The rest of the marina has boat hire and a grill that's right out on the water, looking out at the Lake of Tahoe, which is super nice. And it's a great spot that Lesley had chosen for the first hospitality business she had, the Breakwater. And I'm basically going to go in there now and just skulk around and see if I can find anybody who was here 20 years ago that might be able to tell me anything. I remember at night they used to have like some rager parties out in the front of the plaza there, kind of outdoors, and it used to be pretty packed. She did good business from what I understand. Right, and by she you mean Leslie, the lady who owned the Breakwater?

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Yes.

[Olly Wardes]

I think she had a partner, but I can't remember who it was. All these memories I'm finding are pretty vague, but I know there's a guy around here who's been running the marina the whole time. I heard this guy remembers Leslie, but that he keeps to himself. Also, apparently he's nervous about stirring anything dodgy up. I reckon I can explain things if I can just find him. Can't even find any pictures online, so I don't know who I'm looking for. There are offices above the shops. I'm wandering through. I see an open door, so I go upstairs.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Hello?

[Olly Wardes]

We'll be right back.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Olly Wardes]

Just as I give up and go to leave, I walk right into him in the car park. He didn't want to be recorded or named, but the conversation I had with him was pretty interesting. When I found Simon again, I turned my Recorder back on. Alrighty, bro. Yeah. So that guy was happy to confirm for me that he reckoned her parents owned the breakwater that was here and she was running it for them. And his words were, she ran it into the ground, she didn't pay rent and we had to evict her. So I guess that lines up with what we found from the court today.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

It lines up pretty hard with the Dragonfly, too. She's definitely good at bearing restaurants.

[Olly Wardes]

So Leslie's business in Tahoe ended in a bin fire, like the ones after it in Hawaii and nz. But could there be a difference to the pattern in Tahoe? Maybe Lesley's parents were involved here. Leslie's dad, Andrew must have had a sense about what happened in Tahoe. He was named on a bunch of those court filings I found where the marina owner was chasing Wren. Both Betty and Andrew are on the Tahoe Breakwater Bar's business paperwork as managers, as well as the liquor licence. We've heard about how people in Hawaii and my family in NZ tried to talk to Lesley's parents about what was going on. So are Lesley's parents just hapless victims in all this? Or are they turning a blind eye to what Lesley does? When Andrew wrote to my parents after the collapse of the Dragonfly, could he have been alluding to his own experience? As far as our empathy for you.

[Justin Richmond]

It is more than you realize.

[Olly Wardes]

My next lead is the most recent I've found so far. It's a clue about where Lesley went after she left New Zealand. It's an online review of yet another restaurant. Somehow, only four years after the Dragonfly and my family went bust, it reads like Leslie was back on her feet. Leslie's next restaurant was called Phenomenal. The whole phenomenal concept was extremely well thought out and executed by owner Leslie Mnookian. Her prior experience of owning and operating of Burgermor and Lincoln Tahoe, a California it's called Phenomenal, with an F in a town called Paso Robles.

[Simon (Olly's brother)]

Wonder if you tricked into that. Yeah. Successful. Yeah. I mean, it's made a lot of people unsuccessful, to be fair, but.

[Olly Wardes]

So we're going to go to Passer Rebels and we're going to ask around and find out what happened with Phenomenal. Hello? This is is just insane. She told me, never fall in love with a Kiwi. They're the worst men.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

I have the worst news ever. Oh, shit.

[Justin Richmond]

She's done it again.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

A private investigator showed up at my door. You did that on purpose, you fucking manipulative bitch.

[Olly Wardes]

She loved you? No, not at all. That's Next time on Snowball.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Binge episodes of Deep Cover Presents Snowball.

[Olly Wardes]

Early and ad free with a Pushkin plus subscription.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Find Pushkin plus on the Deep Cover.

[Olly Wardes]

Show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin FM Plus. Pushkin subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts throughout the year. This message comes from the International rescue committee. The IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years. The International Rescue Committee helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts in places like Gaza and Ukraine and responding within 72 hours of crisis.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Donate today by visiting Rescue.orgRebuild that's Rescue.orgRebuild.

[Olly Wardes]

To learn more and donate today.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a.

[Olly Wardes]

Very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means half day. Yeah, give it a try@mint mobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

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[Olly Wardes]

Speed slow 135 gigabytes of networks busy.

[Betty (Lesley's mother)]

Taxes and fees extra.

[Olly Wardes]

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