Snowball - Episode 5: Black Widow

Summary

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 5: Black Widow
Release Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Ollie Wards

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Overview

In the fifth episode of the Snowball series, Ollie Wards tracks the aftermath of his family’s disastrous run-in with the Californian conwoman, Leslie Mnookian. The episode, titled "Black Widow," centers on Leslie’s next chapter in California, where she repeats her patterns of deception and financial manipulation. Ollie, joined by his brother Simon, meets with Leslie’s more recent victims—including her former partner “Cameron”—and traces her ongoing impact on those around her. Ultimately, the investigation moves toward a possible face-to-face confrontation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction: Chasing the "Black Widow" (04:45)

• Ollie describes Leslie’s dualistic world: one of “fantasy,” where she invents characters and stories about herself, and another in which real people are drawn into her cons.
• Ollie and Simon travel to Paso Robles, California, to investigate Leslie's actions post-New Zealand, setting a lighthearted tone with "True Detective" aspirations in a muscle car.

2. Meeting Cameron: The Next Victim (07:33)

• Cameron (pseudonym), the real owner of the restaurant Phenomenal, recounts his relationship with Leslie.
• Cameron describes Leslie's charisma and how their romance quickly escalated to cohabitation and business partnership:
  • “She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and wanted to have the zest for life and just enjoy life.” (08:19)
• Cameron’s friends were skeptical, noting Leslie was "not his usual type."

3. Signs of Deceit: The Restaurant Scheme (16:29)

• Leslie leverages her purported hospitality experience to convince Cameron to invest heavily in starting “Phenomenal."
• Leslie misrepresents her business contributions and repeatedly tells others it's "her" restaurant, despite investing no money.
• Cameron uncovers erratic, suspicious financial behavior:
  • “She went and basically told everybody that it was her restaurant. And most people found out much later that she didn't even put a penny in there.” (17:03)
  • Leslie forges documents and receipts (e.g., faked PG&E bills), triggering debt and vendor complaints.
• Cameron discovers forged checks—one for $30,850 made out to cash, others for payments to Leslie’s father.

4. Emotional Fallout and Coping (21:07)

• Cameron describes the emotional and financial devastation:
  • “I didn't lose my house, but I was close. I did lose my car. ... I just need to figure out a way to survive.” (21:30)
• Despite evidence of fraud, Cameron decides not to pursue legal action, feeling it is too painful and preferring to move on.

5. Processing Betrayal: Family and Friends' Reactions (22:37)

• Cameron is open to helping Ollie and Greg find closure or "help someone else have closure."
• Cameron’s partner describes his struggle to process the trauma, having previously pushed it “under the rug.”
• Cameron notes how the experience permanently altered his ability to trust:
  • “Trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. … I definitely don't have as much trust for the people in my lives.” (24:34)

6. Cameron’s Daughter’s Perspective (26:31)

• As a child in the house, she found Leslie initially fun but soon experienced emotional manipulation and verbal outbursts:
  • “She started yelling, you did that on purpose, you fucking manipulative bitch.” (26:57)
• Leslie’s remarks induced lifelong insecurities, e.g., about body hair.
• She reflects: “A part of me believes that she’s just a really broken person that just has a lot of issues and just can’t help but to wreak havoc wherever she goes.” (28:28)

7. The Pattern Repeats (29:24)

• Ollie recognizes the cyclical nature of Leslie’s cons—opportunities squandered, fake documents made with literal “scissors and glue,” and repeated flight from confrontation.
• Cameron mentions Leslie's chronic debt and hints that her family may (enablingly) bail her out:
  • “I know her parents helped her and supported her. There was definitely one credit card… ran up a credit card and her parents paid it off for her…” (33:36)

8. The “She’s Done It Again” Realization (34:58)

• Cameron recounts a moment when Leslie’s own mother, Betty, realized the repeat fraud:
  • “And then she's like, oh, she's done it again.” (35:12)
• Betty leaves and is never seen again; Cameron warns the bank and removes Leslie from the business.

9. Searching for Leslie—Modern Clues (36:22)

• Cameron receives receipts from Leslie's pharmacy loyalty account, tracking her purchases and confirming she still lives nearby in San Luis Obispo.
  • “At first it was kind of comical… She’s buying gummy worms… NyQuil… mascara…” (36:22)
• Ollie and Simon prepare to stake out Leslie's location, feeling both nervous and determined.

10. Interview with “Sarah,” the Ex-Friend and Wine Manager (39:38)

• Sarah shares her experience being charmed and drawn in by Leslie, only to be scapegoated and ostracized once she started asking questions.
• She later encounters Leslie working at a supermarket—a full circle from her hospitality queen persona.

11. Final Family Debrief & Emotional Climax (45:16)

• Ollie updates his family over video chat; their reactions are a mix of disbelief, exhaustion, and a desire for closure.
  • “It's beyond reason, isn't it, that she could do these things. Tonight we've learned from you that it’s a pattern.” (45:14, Mum)
• Greg’s wish for Leslie: “Her behaviour has to come to an end. And chaps from New Zealand are gonna help bring that end of behaviour about.” (46:30)

12. Cliffhanger: The Supermarket Showdown (50:13)

• The episode ends as Ollie and Simon arrive in San Luis Obispo, poised for a direct encounter with Leslie at her workplace—a literal and metaphorical confrontation years in the making.

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Memorable Quotes

• Cameron (Restaurant Owner) [04:45]: “We do not even call her by her name anymore. So we call her the Black Widow.”
• Cameron [08:19]: “She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and wanted to have the zest for life and just enjoy life.”
• Cameron [17:03]: “She went and basically told everybody that it was her restaurant. And most people found out much later that she didn't even put a penny in there.”
• Cameron [17:56]: “She took the logo from their website, put it onto a blank piece of paper, wrote it out. This is your receipt... she had that in the books. As if she had paid.”
• Cameron [20:50]: “This is something that is the most disturbing. $30,000, $30,850 made out to cash. I have no idea where the money went. I mean, I'm an idiot for allowing that to happen.”
• Cameron’s Daughter [26:57]: “She started yelling, you did that on purpose, you fucking manipulative bitch...”
• Cameron [24:34]: “Trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. ... I definitely don’t have as much trust for the people in my lives.”
• Cameron [29:11]: “All the time and effort that she put into creating scams… if she just took the brains of that and did something right with her life, she could probably be successful.”
• Betty (Cameron quoting Leslie's mum) [35:12]: “Oh, she’s done it again.”
• Mum [45:14]: “I have no hatred for her. I don't really have any anger for her. She just leaves me gobsmacked. It's beyond reason, isn't it, that she could do these things.”
• Greg [46:30]: “Her behaviour has to come to an end. And chaps from New Zealand are gonna help bring that end of behaviour about.”
• Sarah [44:04]: “Listening to her just, like, spin and spin and spin and spin, like, I felt empathy for her. And I really had a hard time stopping myself from inviting her over…”

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Important Timestamps

• 04:45: Nicknaming Leslie “Black Widow”
• 07:33: Introduction to Cameron, the real restaurant owner
• 17:03: Cameron explains Leslie’s false representation at the restaurant
• 17:56: Discovery of forged receipts and financial mismanagement
• 20:50: Forged checks and the major cash withdrawal
• 21:30: Cameron wrestles with the impact and the decision not to press charges
• 24:34: Cameron discusses trust issues post-Leslie
• 26:57: Cameron's daughter describes verbal abuse and manipulation by Leslie
• 29:11: Reflection on Leslie’s wasted talent and potential
• 34:58: Leslie’s mother recognizes the pattern of fraud
• 36:22: Pharmacy therapy: the bizarre email receipt clue
• 39:38: Interview with Sarah, former friend/wine manager
• 44:04: Sarah’s conflicted empathy toward Leslie
• 45:14: Family video chat, reactions, and reflections
• 50:13: Ollie and Simon stake out the supermarket, ready for the confrontation

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Conclusion

“Black Widow” peels back the next layer in Leslie Mnookian’s web—demonstrating how her manipulations, charm, and chaos replay in new locations with new victims, only to yield the same heartbreak and confusion. Through candid conversations with those caught in Leslie’s orbit and introspective moments with his own family, Ollie builds empathy for the collateral damage while honing in on the elusive motivations behind Leslie’s actions. The episode ends on a palpable note of anticipation, setting the stage for a confrontation years in the making.

Next time: Ollie and Simon set out to meet Leslie—face to face.

Transcript

[Host/Advertiser]

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[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Guaranteed Human.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

This is Tim Harford from Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford. It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes. Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds. All they have left is a life raft and each other. How will they survive? The true story of a family's fight for survival, hosted by Becky Milligan. This is Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Apple TV subscribers get special early access to the entire season. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. This is Michael Lewis from Against the Rules, the big short companion. This podcast is brought to you by FedEx the new power move. You know those people who show up late to meetings or events on purpose to make themselves look like they're so busy? That's really the old power move. The new power moves are calling out logistical problems before they arise, or knowing every detail about your shipment every step of the way. FedEx the new power move. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com. Pushkin. This episode contains occasional course language and we've used some voice actors to bring emails to life. I've been trying to understand how my brother's ex wife, Leslie Mnookian, thinks my journey so far has been like tunnelling through the Matrix. I've been gradually digging deeper into into the world Lesley lives in. Actually, it's kind of like two worlds. It seems like Lesley has a fantasy world where she invents characters and a Hollywood movie about her life. But she also lives in the real world where people like my brother Greg are drawn into her spirals. I was absolutely like the sitting duck, mate. Greg called me the other day and I guess he's been thinking about that too. Like who's the most prime target for an American female con artist with black hair? It's Greg Wards. You couldn't have lined it up better, honestly. I would suggest I was the most obvious target. I was looking for the North American accent. It was done and dusted. Day one, man. So do you think that she actually knew that as well? And I guess it just made things easier for her. No, she didn't know that because she didn't know who I was. But it was the collision of multi fraudster versus the other side being someone wanting to believe in the American dream, man. So far I found out about the trouble Lesley got into before she came to New Zealand. But now I want to know about what happened after Leslie left Greg the Dragonfly and New Zealand behind. And the only way to find out more is to get closer to Leslie. Literally. I'm on her home turf in California with my other brother Simon.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

It's hot and sunny like California should be.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

We're doing our best detective impressions in Hawaiian shirts in a muscle car. We're definitely more Flight of the Concords than true detective. Alright, we have the car running a gentleman rumble, rumble in the background. It's a purr.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

It's a purr.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

But we've got good leads and we're determined to find out more. We are today heading to a northern Californian town called Paso Robles. I'm following this trail to find answers for my family and to find Leslie. Let's hit the road. Sweet. I'm Ollie Wardes and this is Snowball.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

We do not even call her by her name anymore. So we call her the Black Widow.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

She has a laugh that could, you know, you hear it across the room.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

How did she get over on you? How did this happen?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

She was just kind of reckless with everything. I don't think she ever thought she would actually get caught.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

And he basically said when I got home there was a bongload, a martini and a blowjob and I just didn't think about it.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

I don't think she'll talk to you. I think she'll see you and she'll run out the back door.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

I've had so many dreams of like talking to her. I just want to ask her like, oh God, like why did you do this?

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Where we're heading is about three and a half hours northwest of la, driving into wine country. There's vineyards and boozed up baby boomers everywhere. It was only four years after Leslie left my brother Greg and the failing Dragonfly in when she popped up here in Paso Robles running another restaurant. This one was called Phenomenal. That's Phenomenal with an F. A review of Lesley's new restaurant appeared on travelpasso.com.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

The whole phenomenal concept was extremely well thought out and executed by owner Leslie Mnookian. Her prior experience of owning and operating a burger bar in Lake Tahoe, a California Cuisine, fish and steak restaurant in Maui and an artsy breakfast cafe in New Zealand taught her what is required to launch a successful business in the food and wine space. That and eating in 47 countries in seven years.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

That's only a bit cheeky. Lesley telling people about her successful bars in Tahoe, Hawaii, and now an artsy breakfast cafe in nz. Lucky the journalist who wrote that didn't check any references. So here's another grand opening, another hospitality business, and maybe this time things turned out differently. No. Before we came to Paso Robles, I tracked down the people involved with this restaurant and. It sounds messy. Here we are, Simon, driving through Paso Robles. The streets are really wide. The houses look like they're made of Lego, in that they have a tiny little stoop and that they're all perfectly trimmed and painted. Hello. Hey, guys. We're all right to park this monstrosity of a car here, are we?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Absolutely.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

This is the real owner of that restaurant. Phenomenal. He's happy to talk, but I've changed his name to Cameron. So good to meet you in person. He doesn't want to have any more personal or professional impact from what happened to him.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Hey, nice to meet you, man.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Thank you for having us. He's a business guy, engineering background, big build. He's got a grey goatee. Cameron invited Simon and I round to his really nice house. It's on a hill with a view of trees and other big villas in the neighbourhood. To get up to his front door, we climbed a rock staircase through a terraced garden. It's a blue sky day. Is it always like this?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Yes, pretty much.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So we're sitting out on the balcony. Cameron says that when he first met Lesley, he had just been through a divorce. One night he was having dinner with his mum and Leslie was their waiter.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and wanted to have the zest for life and just enjoy life.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So they start dating. They were only together a few months when things jumped to the next level.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Next thing I know, she was just there a lot more and she's like, well, hey, I shouldn't be paying rent when I'm here a lot anyway, so I'll just move in. And it just kind of happened. It wasn't like a discussion, it just kind of. Kind of unfolded.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron was okay with that, though. He thought it'd be fun to have Lesley around. And it sounds like he was right. Cameron's friends remember Leslie joining their crew. We instantly became friends.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

I mean, she was easy to talk to. She was interesting and interested in everyone. I mean, it was just so, so.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Easy to get along.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

And she always had fun things, you know, she always came up with fun things to do and you definitely had the sense that she like came from money.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

But another of Cameron's friends I spoke to reckons Leslie wasn't his usual type. She seemed very nice. I did think that she was an odd match. Didn't seem his, you know, his typical cup of tea for a relationship. In what way? You know, very outgoing, just different differences even in her appearance. She's loud, she has, you know, large hair, long nails, painted. So I think that it was a have an out of character relationship for him. Cameron's mate asked him what he saw in Lesley. How did she get over on you? How did this happen? And he basically said, when I got home there was a bong load, a martini and a blowjob and I just didn't think about it and I just said yes. And I signed. We'll be right back. Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P I N Q U E-S-T.com Spinquest is a free.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

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[Host/Advertiser]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Lesley was also adventurous with all her worldly experience. She encouraged Cameron's desire to travel and they started planning a trip down under.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

I've never been to Australia, so I thought that would be great. Let's go to Australia. I was in the process of actually getting scuba dive certified, so the goal was to go down there, do some wine tasting in Barossa, go see Melbourne, make sure I see all the sites, and just make a trip out of it. So flights were booked, hotels are booked.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

But Lesley's checkered past was about to interfere with their plans. Because back in New Zealand, my dad was still trying to figure out what had happened and where Leslie had gone. Dad was reading about book deals, movie stars and boats in Lesley's emails. Like you heard last episode, he thought it all might be real. And he was wondering how Leslie could get away from New Zealand and her guarantee of the Dragonfly bank loan without paying a cent. So dad arranged for a private investigator to find Lesley to see if all the glitz and glamour was legit and to see if she would forfeit her boat to help pay off the loan. And this American PI, he found her at Cameron's house. We know what happened next from Lesley's perspective because she emailed a friend about it. A private investigator showed up at my door. Dave Ward's hired him to find me. I kindly invited him in and we had a long talk about all the accusations that they have made against me. The PI found Lesley so convincing that from the report he sent back and her emails, it seems like she managed to flip him to her side. Lesley even refers to him as my PI at the end of her email to her mate. Even though the PI was working for my dad, he ended up giving her information, including one crucial piece of intel. The PI told me, I have a warrant for my arrest in nz. It wasn't a warrant for arrest, but the cops told me that they would be alerted if Lesley set foot in New Zealand. And those flights that Lesley and Cameron had to Australia only a week later. They were connecting through New Zealand. If they went on their holiday, they. Leslie might have had to have a little chat with the Kiwi cops. So she panicked. Leslie had to come up with an excuse as to why they couldn't get on that plane.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Next thing I know, she says there was. She came up with a couple different stories. And so. But the final story that we landed on was that there was so many major storms happening in Australia at the time. There's that the. The Great Barrier Reef was going to be cloudy. We weren't going to be able to scuba dive there because you wouldn't see anything. So the whole purpose of, you know, one of the purposes to go there is to. To enjoy the scuba diving and snorkeling and stuff. So it was based on weather at the time.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

They were meant to be meeting some friends in Australia and they copped a different excuse from Leslie in an email. I have the worst news ever. Cameron and I are not going to make it to Australia. As you know, Cameron uses air miles for travel to Australia. Well, we were printing down all of our arrangements and Cameron noticed that our names were spelled wrong on our ticketing information. I'm so upset, I do not even know where to begin. I have been on the phone all night cancelling and changing bookings. So their tickets were void because Cameron got their names wrong on the booking. It's a testament to how doggedly Lesley can tell a story that everyone just let it slide. Leslie was spinning an even more important story for Cameron. It was Lesley's greatest hit story of being a successful restaurateur. And predictably, it wasn't long before Leslie started suggesting that Cameron should invest a ton of money in a new restaurant. And like a lot of people before him, Cameron. Cameron was keen.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

So I thought between the two of us, you know, if she's already done it four or five times, this would be an easy situation. I can invest in this. I can do this and make a nice, successful business in the local area here.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Eventually, Cameron agreed and they launched Phenomenal. The restaurant started strongly. The headline of that review you heard before was the phenomenal story of a great new Paso Robles restaurant. Love a pun title. Cameron says Lesley wasn't actually employed at the restaurant, but as his girlfriend, she was helping out with a bunch of stuff.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

She went and basically told everybody that it was her restaurant. And most people found out much later that she didn't even put a penny in there. Not a dime, not a dollar. She did spend time in there but you know, she was just kind of reckless with everything, including when we were purchasing equipment, you know, we were buying equipment and all of a sudden, next thing I know, she was returning something and then going and getting some other piece of equipment, the same piece of equipment with the lease. And so the money flow would just be crazy in the fact that like, wait, I just bought a new 10 burner stove and now all of a sudden I'm leasing one. Where'd that money go? And so it was things like that where it just didn't make sense.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

As Cameron talks about how Leslie was involved at his restaurant. I've got deja vu. Cameron says strange stuff was going on with the accounting. Phenomenal was a tapas joint. But it sounds like it was the books that were getting cooked or at least a bit scrambled.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

One time PGE called me and said, by the way, we're shutting your electric off. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I paid it. And they're like, no, you're like six grand in the hole. And I'm like, no, I have these receipts. I sent them the receipts and they said these are fraudulent. She took the logo from their website, put it onto a blank piece of paper, wrote it out. This is your receipt for this dollar amount for, for this account. And had that in the books. As if she had paid.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Wasn'T just the electricity bill that wasn't getting paid. Quite early on, someone stuck a flyer on the windows of the restaurant saying, shame on you, phenomenal restaurant. You are doing business at the expense of local subcontractors. Pay your bills. When I ask Cameron if I can see some of this stuff, he takes me inside. Cameron goes to the filing cabinet and comes back arms full. He dumps his papers on the polished wood dining room table. You've got a couple of red folders here. One of them's got Black Widow written on it.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

So most of my friends, we do not even call her by her name anymore. She's not worthy of being named. So we call her the Black Widow.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

And of course, the Black Widow famously eats its romantic partner after a little while.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Right? Exactly.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron spreads out a bunch of papers on the table in front of us and starts to take me through what happened.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

So what I have in front of me here are a bunch of bank documents. And you know, the thing is that, you know, when you're running a business, you don't typically run it through a lot of cash based things. You want to make sure there's a paper trail, but for whatever reason, she chose to go and withdraw cash. So I can't prove that she's taking this cash and put it in her pocket or her bank accounts. But all I can do is say, well, here, okay, this month alone there was $6,000 withdrawal by cash. $5,000, $5,000, there's another 5,000, there's another 3,000. That's in 30 days withdrawal of cash. Cameron could keep going and he does $5,000, $2,000, $3,000.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

While all this was happening, Lesley wasn't being paid like she was on the phenomenal staff. Cameron says the deal was until the business started making money, he was covering everything like food, rent and overseas holidays. But maybe Lesley thought she was entitled to some money in the meantime. It's just the next thing he shows me looks like a murky way for Leslie to sort herself out with cash. He pulls out some scans of cheques he reckons Leslie forged his signature on.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Oh, look at that. It happens to be to her father, Andrew Mnookian, for $650 minimum credit card payment is what it's showing here, not my signature.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Then there's a real big boy. Cameron says he made the mistake of leaving a blank check around for emergencies.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

You know, this is something that is the most disturbing. $30,000, $30,850 made out to cash. I have no idea where the money went. I mean, I'm an idiot for allowing that to happen.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

I mean, that's actually probably physically quite a lot of paper. Like I would imagine going up to the bank teller and handing that check across and they would sort of have to go into the vault and, you know, get a bag and manager approval and all that kind of stuff.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

So it goes on and on and on.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

I mean, did you think about going to the police when you found this?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Yes, it's too painful to go through that. Part of it was the survivability piece is that, you know, I still had to move on in my life. I didn't lose my house, but I was close. I did lose my car. I had to let that go, you know, and so there's been so many things along that way that I'm like, you know what? I just need to figure out a way to survive. And not only that, it's a small town, so, you know, it was better for me to just suck it up, understand that I made a mistake with who I partnered with, and chalk it up as a life experience and move on.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So it all happens again. Allegations of fake documents, forged checks, mysterious lumps of Cash going missing. Then Lesley gets to walk away. Only this time, it was Cameron's conscious choice not to pursue her, even if he wanted to change his mind. Now it's probably too late. There's a statute of limitations on fraud in California of three years. We sit around the dining room table talking for ages and Simon starts to wonder, if Cameron didn't talk to the cops, then why us?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Obviously, you decided not to kind of approach anyone else about it. What made you talk to Ollie and leads us to be sitting here together? So I guess, first and foremost, I think the fact that I had it bad, but your brother Greg had it way worse, and your parents. So for me, at that point in time, it was kind of like, well, you know, what if there's a way that I can somehow help? And whether it's help this be successful or help her to be stopped or to somehow help someone else have closure, that was pretty important to me.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

But it turns out it wasn't that easy inviting us to come over. Cameron's partner has been sitting with us this whole time, nodding her head to what she already knows and at times looking pretty shocked as she finds out more. When Cameron told me about it initially, I could just see this black cloud above his head and he was just, for a few days there, he didn't know if he wanted to do it or not. And I was excited about the possibility of this happening because I knew just from the outside looking at Cameron, that he needed to process it, because I, in my opinion, he kind of put a lot of things, just shoved it under the rug and just wanted to pretend it didn't ever happen.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

And I knew that.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

I just kept putting it in a file cabinet. It's like, you know what? Let's just. Let's just look at this 10 years from now. Let's laugh about this in 10 years.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

I mean, he did have an inkling that maybe someday he would be happy that he didn't throw away some of these papers. But I knew he needed to process all that that had happened to him. And once that happens, with any trauma, once you are able to actually finally process it all, you can really then go on with your life. That's when Simon and I start to realise this stuff is still present for them. They've got this nice house on a hill and they're doing well, but the betrayal of your trust, that kind of thing takes longer to get past.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Did this kind of change the way you'd look at kind of going into business or even going into relationships after that, like, do you. Did it negatively affect you like that, or. Unfortunately, the bad part of that is, you know, it's like, trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. And I definitely don't have as much trust for the people in my lives, and so therefore, I definitely have to verify a lot more. I mean, I think I appreciate the things that you have around you a lot more than. Than I did before because, you know, I was fat, dumb, and happy or whatever, and just, you know, I was. I was doing well, and I was. I was making my bills. And, you know, after that, it's kind of like, well, wait, what makes you happy? And I truly was not happy during that period of my life because it was the. Probably the highest stress level I've ever had in my life.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So this whole experience did have a lasting effect. There's that phrase, it's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. With this relationship, Cameron definitely lost, but was there love? You were with Lesley for a couple of years. Did your relationship get to that point where you think she loved you?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

No, not at all. I don't think she was ever in love with me. I think she was in love with the opportunities and the lifestyle. No, I never really felt any love from her. You know, there was at times some respect. That was about the only thing like, hey, you're successful in your career. But for the most part, no, it was more like, you know, two people just going out and having fun. At times, when we go places, it was more about, like, let's go have fun. It wasn't about any kind of a romantic situation.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

There's one other perspective I wanted to get from this time in Cameron's life. Cameron's daughter was living with them when Lesley moved in. She was around 10 at the time. Now she's 18 and off at college. I wanted to hear how all this went for her. Cameron suggested I give her a call.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

Like, when I met her, I, you know, thought she was fun. She's really, like, kind of tough and, like, unlike other women that I had met or other, like, female, like, I don't know, figures in my life. So I thought she was kind of cool at first. She, like, would always, like, wrestle with me and, like, roughhouse and, like, you know, talk about, like, being tough and all this stuff.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron's daughter says that Leslie was sort of a playmate rather than a parent figure.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

Like, I remember one time, like, when we were playing basketball, like, I threw the basketball at her, and it hit her in the boobs and she just like got so mad at me. Like, she started yelling, you did that on purpose, you fucking manipulative bitch. Like, what the fuck are you doing? And like she just would just go off suddenly and I just like would be totally freaked out and like not know what I did. And my dad would always like say like, oh, she's just, she's never been around kids. She just doesn't really like know that you're not supposed to do that.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

As time went on, it sounds like their interactions became more hurtful.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

She was like, oh my God, honey, you must get made fun of so much in school for your mustache.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

And.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

For your, and for your, your body hair. Like I remember I did like, I. And she was like being like relate, like trying to be relatable. Like I remember I did and like, you know, I didn't have like a mother who would like help me with that kind of stuff. Like your mother, you know, like your mother, your mother obviously like isn't talking to you about this, but I can like help you and teach you how to shave your legs and I can give you this cream that you can just put on your lip and it'll get rid of the hair. And at the time like I was like 10, so I didn't even have any. Like, not like I didn't even notice it. I had never been made fun of it and I like, was just like, I don't know, kind of like suddenly like self conscious about this thing.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron's daughter has thought a lot about it since.

[Cameron's Daughter or Sarah (Wine Manager)]

Okay, this is really hard to say. I've actually, like, in the aftermath of her like leaving and whatever, like I had so many dreams of like, like talking to her just because like I felt like there was never any closure there. But what would you want to say to her? I, oh God, why did you do this? Like, I, like a part of me believes that she's just like a really broken person that just has a lot of issues and just can't help but to wreak havoc wherever she goes.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

I always wonder, I mean, all of the time and effort that she put into creating scams and creating all these things, if she just took the brains of that and did something right with her life, she could probably be successful.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

It's unreal because our dad had just sold his business just before they bought the Dragonfly and he invested sort of 200 grand cash and then guarantored the loan for them. She didn't invest a single cent in the whole thing yet she had this opportunity. We were talking about it today where like it was a beautiful place and it was in a nice part of New Zealand and it had a great start and everyone she could have if she ran it well, it could have been a great life. So again, I don't understand why Lesley seems to mess up these great opportunities in her life. By now I sort of expected to find a bigger purpose, a master plan, some kind of reason for all this. Like you'd think there would be a bigger payoff for Lesley. Even if these tens of thousands of dollars are going into her own pockets, is it worth it? In the end, Leslie doesn't seem to end up with much. She's not a master criminal. Some of these fake documents look like she's made them with real life scissors and glue. Her deceptions always seem to catch up with her. And then Lesley's whole world gets turned upside down yet again and she has to move to a new place. So why does she do it? We'll be right back. Spin Quest Social Casino the presents are open and you're over the in laws. It's a perfect time to grab your phone and play spinquest.com with live dealer, blackjack, crafts and a ton of slots. And here's a great deal for the holiday, a $30 coin pack for $10. And if you're hearing this ad, you can play right now on SpinQuest.com SpinQuest.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Michael Lewis from Against the Rules, the Big Short Companion this podcast is brought to you by FedEx. The new power Move. Hey, we all know those people who you run into at work who want you to think that they have power and you don't. You know people who show up late to meetings and events late on purpose to make themselves look like they're so busy. People who put you on hold, or people who never sit at the conference table in a meeting. Instead they're always perched in the back, lording over everyone. The real power move is actually having access to the biggest data networks, powered by the biggest delivery network, using predictive analytics to manage your entire supply chain, and having end to end visibility for temperature controlled healthcare shipping. FedEx the new power Move Cameron does mention one thing I've heard before, something that might explain some of what she does.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

I know her parents helped her and supported her. There was definitely one credit card that I remember that she had said something about, like she ran up a credit card and her parents paid it off for her and so therefore she had to give them money at various times to help pay off the credit card that she ran up. And it was a big number, but I just remember she would sometimes have to make payments to her parents.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

This kind of thing was going on when Lesley was in New Zealand too. There's an email her mum Betty sent warning Lesley about using their credit card. The last time you had it was for two days and you ran up $2,000 on it, of which, although I was promised a payback, it never came as usual. So maybe Lesley is constantly in debt and maybe the one debt that she can never really run away from is the one she owes to her parents. Cameron spent a fair bit of time with Lesley's parents. They even moved up to Paso Robles for a while when things were going well. By the time Cameron was trying to figure out the phenomenal financials, kind of surprisingly, Leslie's mum Betty came to help with the books. One night, Betty was in the restaurant office when Cameron was realising how bad things were and Betty said something that stuck with him.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

At some point in time, we were discussing something and I said, well, this is unacceptable. We can't be running a business in this way. And then Betty was like, what's going on? Because I don't raise my voice very often. And I was like, this is. This is just insane. What? How can this be happening?

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

And.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

And then she's like, oh, she's done it again. And it was just this revelation, like all of a sudden she Just knew what had happened and where we are. And Betty picked up her purse and left, never to be seen again.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron had seen enough. He kicked Leslie out and he warned the bank what he suspected was going on.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

And she went in the day that I shut it off and was trying to withdraw a large sum of money. And they said, nope, you're off the account. She apparently started crying and saying, that's not fair. That's my business. This is my company. This is all these things right there. So the president of that bank told me all this whole story.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So Leslie was gone from another restaurant. Another mess. This time Leslie didn't go far. Cameron has a clue for us about where Lesley might be now. He's actually been kind of getting running updates about where Lesley is from a pretty strange source. For some reason, when they were together, his email address got added to her loyalty account with a big American pharmacy chain.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

And so somehow I get these emails that says every time she makes a purchase, I get a receipt for what she purchased. And at first it was kind of comical. I'm like, oh, great. So she's buying gummy worms, some NyQuil, some crazy mascara or whatever. Oh, wow, okay. So she must have a cold this weekend. And oh, hey, you know, now she's got the munchies because she's buying all these snack things. And it was, it was quite comical to know that she was still in the area and at the same time going, she hasn't changed a thing.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Cameron tells Simon and I the receipts have been coming from a place called San Luis Obispo.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

San Luis Obispo.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

How far is that from here, Cameron?

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

It's about 30 minutes from here.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

That's us. So Simon and I jump back in the car. Next stop on road trip to Snowball. It's an easy drive through a valley. San Luis Obispo is a tidy little town, mostly one and two story buildings surrounded by green hills. But there is something about this place that starts to freak me out. We are entering what is probably Leslie's town, so she might see us nervous again. Imagine feeling nervous for, for like weeks on end. And that's me. I have this knot in my stomach because we could be busted at any time and I don't know what that would mean. I don't know what it would feel like for Leslie to see us and go, whoa, Simon and Ollie. I've always known that somebody was gonna come looking for me or would. Has it been long enough? And she's got no idea. And we're just a couple of Americans, one in a Detroit Tigers hat and one in a Yankees hat, cruising through town in a muscle car.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Well, the thing is, I think the amount of people that she's duped, like we're not the only people that she's kind of wary of seeing. You know, imagine the list of people that potentially could be coming to look for her.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So the thing is, we still don't know where to find her and we can't just hang out on street corners until she walks past or something. But Cameron has given us another lead. He knows someone else who lives in San Luis Obispo. It's the former wine manager from Phenomenal. Apparently, she had been friends with Lesley. She's up for having a chat with us. So we head over to her place. She doesn't want to have her real name used either. It's another small town. So I'm going to call her Sarah. Here we are. I'm just pulling into the driveway. Beautiful garden. I think she's there in the. In the. In the garden, doing some weeding and stuff. This is my brother, Simon. Hi, Simon.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Nice to meet you.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Nice to meet you.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

You're not Greg.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

No, I'm not Greg couldn't. Greg's one brother in between us.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Got it.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Okay.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Yeah. He's got a little girl to look after and the job probably would have.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Been a bit too emotional for him coming out, potentially.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Well, we can go inside.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Thank you so much for having me. Sarah's place is right on a golf course. Like, her windows occasionally get some smashed by shanked shots. She met Leslie soon after everything went down in NZ when Leslie came back to the States.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

An instant friendship. We had both just moved to the area. We didn't know a ton of people and we were part of this opening team. I was new, I was nervous. I didn't know. I only knew one other person. And so the charm definitely drew me in. She just, you know, she has this very charismatic quality about her that she can just introduce herself and instantly want to try and make a connection with you. And it's like she uses her wide range of, as she said it, of worldly experience, and uses it to kind of become a little bit of a. Like an older sister. It will get better. Everything's okay. You are amazing. You've got so much going for you. And that was just. That was her way.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

I've got one thing on my mind that I can't help but ask. You know, please tell us what you heard about what happened in New Zealand.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Well, I heard your Family's pretty terrible. Pretty terrible.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Simon's laughing.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Sounds about right.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Yeah. No, I remember because I was going to New Zealand, she told me, never fall in love with a kiwi. They're the worst men. The worst men. You never want to fall in love with a kiwi. But about your family, she basically distilled it down to was your parents were after her parents money.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

But as far as we can tell, Lesley might have actually transferred my parents money to her mum and dad. Anyway, while she was away from the us, Sarah stayed in touch with Leslie. And when Phenomenal was opening, Leslie wanted Sarah to move back and be part of it.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Yeah, I was a restaurant person and I always wanted to be a sommelier. And so she presented the opportunity. She's like, you know what, if you're ready to come home, just come home and be, be my wine director. Be the person that is that buys the wine for the restaurant. You can make all the selections.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

And with that, Sarah became another person drawn into Leslie's restaurant dreams.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

But then once, kind of the honeymoon period was over, I guess for the restaurant and more rumors started going around about town that maybe a vendor hadn't been paid. Then, you know, more seats sat empty, fewer people were coming in, and Leslie really started disappearing. She just wouldn't show up. And she's like, I just can't. I'm too stressed out.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Eventually, Sarah started to realize what was going on. She started asking questions about all the things that didn't add up with Leslie.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

So I became public enemy number one in the restaurant. I was feeling the rest of the staff treating me differently and that's basically because she was just trashing me, badmouthing me because I wasn't her little number one worker bee anymore.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Sarah says that Lesley tried to make her a scapegoat for some of the chaos at Phenomenal.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

It was heartbreaking. It was, quite frankly, heartbreaking and absolutely confident, Shaking. Because I had always prided myself as being someone, a good friend, a loyal friend, and really damn good at my job.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

The whole experience left Sarah feeling like she needed to get away. She quit. But after Lesley was kicked out of Cameron's house and Phenomenal, Lesley didn't move country or even state. She moved to the same town as Sarah. And being a pretty small town, they eventually ran into each other about a year ago. This might be the final lead. I need to find Leslie. It turns out that after running at least four different bars and restaurants around the world, Lesley was working in a supermarket. Sarah heard her laugh from another aisle.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Yeah, I heard the laugh and I was like, surely not. Absolutely not. No way. And then I got to the end of the aisle and I froze. And she was, like, restocking something, and she looked over and just says, hello, Sarah. And, like, half an aisle away, like, she knew it was me. She saw it was me, and I was just like, oh, my gosh. Hi.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

They chatted for a bit. Leslie even acknowledged she couldn't get away with much in a small town.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

Well, she was. It was like calling out the elephant in the room. We couldn't not talk about what had happened. But then it's like she checked herself and realized, oh, this person knows some of the things I've tried to get away with in a small town.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Despite everything that happened between them, Lesley almost talked it away.

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

I think this is just, like, a testament to her and her charm. When I ran into her at the grocery store and listening to her just, like, spin and spin and spin and spin, like, I felt empathy for her. And I really had a hard time stopping myself from inviting her over to that gathering I was having at my house that night. Even though, like, it's. It was the wildest thing. And I'm very grateful that I did not open that Pandora's box again.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Well, that's exactly what I'm going to try and do. I'm here to open Pandora's box. The supermarket Sarah is talking about is just around the corner. If Leslie still works there, I'll be able to find her. How do you think she would react when we turn up? Well, it'll be just me, really. Simon's a bit intimidating to. To roll up with as well. I keep saying that, but I just find you intimidating, mate. Yeah.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Cause you used to get beaten up when you were little.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

What do you think she would say to all of this stuff that's happened now?

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

I don't think she'll talk to you. I really don't think she'll talk to you. I think she'll see you and she'll run out the back door. She might confront you. I don't know.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

So this might be it. We might have found Leslie. Simon and I figure we'll scope out the supermarket later. What we need to do now is call Mum, dad and Greg back home. They're hanging for updates. So we find a place to stay and call a family. Skype meeting. It starts the way they always do. G'. Day, G'.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Day.

[Host/Advertiser]

G'.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Day. Hey, hey, hey. Ho, ho. Yo, dad, have we got our video on? Doesn't look like we Have. Once the tech stuff is sorted, it's down to business. How are you guys? Yeah, good. Hey, tell us, what have you done today, for goodness sake? I tell them everything you've heard. Just. Mum wants more detail about what we've been eating and if we're looking after ourselves. After hearing Cameron's story and how similar it was to ours, Mum has some thoughts. I have no hatred for her. I don't really have any anger for her. She just leaves me gobsmacked. It's beyond reason, isn't it, that she could do these things. Tonight we've learned from you that it's a pattern. So she knows very well what she's doing and what works. Then I tell them about where Lesley's been working. She works on supermarkets. Yeah, man. What do you make of that? Oh, she'll be planning her way to climb out of it by burning someone else. She'll have more mascara on now than ever before, trying to trap someone else. And what do you think of everything we've told you so far, man? Just ticking like lots of bells are going in my head and I just think she needs to be stopped more than ever before. What we're gonna do is stake out the place tomorrow and try and figure out what time she's working and be there for either the start or end of her shift. It's very important that we don't intimidate her or physically, you know, threaten or get in any sort of altercation. It's. I'm. I'm really going in, palms open, trying to be friendly. Highly important. Greg, what do you think she's going to say? Firstly, I wouldn't probably expect too much. She's. The mechanics in her head will work pretty fast and she'll be. This is not good for Lesley Minookian. What's an escape route? So what will I do if I've got this one shot, one opportunity to talk to Lesley, I want to know what everyone would want me to say. So we go around the room just to basically turn her life around. That would be my thought for her. I would say she needs to know what a hell of a lot of life she's missed out on. Yes. That she could have had a really nice life here in New Zealand. That's a great point, Mum. My desire for her would be that she understands the issues that she's dealt out to a lot of people around the world, that she genuinely seeks to rehabilitate herself into some sort of normality. I don't know how that could be. Maybe Dr. Phil could help her at long last. There it is again. Dad getting a plug in for Dr. Phil. Simon and I are laughing so hard we have to turn our mic off. Greg has been really courageous letting me tell this story. I've been hoping that this whole thing will bring him some sort of closure. So I ask him what he would say to Lesley. That's a tough, tough question. But it would be along the lines that her behaviour has to come to an end. And chaps from New Zealand are gonna help bring that end of behaviour about. Sorry, Sorry. What would I want you to say to her right now? I'd just say it's over. Because we're gonna make it that way. Keokaha, bro, you've been real brave through all this, man. As we wrap up sharing some love, there's another message that gets repeated. Be safe. Be safe. Love you guys, man.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

Love you guys.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Be well, okay? Love you. See ya. Be good. After our family meeting, I lie awake in the cheap motel bed rehearsing what I'm gonna say. I've been working on this thing for months, but my family has been dealing with the fallout for years. And all this time later, it could all come to some sort of culmination. I have no idea what I'm in for. She's walking just in front of you, bro. Where?

[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

In the middle.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Walking just down the middle. Straight down the aisle, halfway between me and you. Okay. Oh, yeah, I see her. I see her. That's next time on Snowboard, Binge episodes of Deep Cover presents Snowball early and.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Find Pushkin plus on the Deep Cover.

[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

Pushkin plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts throughout the year.

[Host/Advertiser]

You've probably heard me say this connection is one of the biggest keys to happiness and one of my favorite ways to build that. Scruffy hospitality. Inviting people over even when things aren't perfect. Because just being together, laughing, chatting, cooking makes you feel good. That's why I love Bosch. Bosch. Fridges with vitafresh technology keep ingredients fresher longer, so you're always ready to whip up a meal and share a special moment. Fresh foods show you care, and it shows the people you love that they matter. Learn more, visit Boschhomeus.com Black Friday is.

[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

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[Cameron (Restaurant Owner)]

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[Ollie Ward (Main Narrator)]

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[Host/Advertiser]

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[Guest or Secondary Narrator]

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