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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Dara Caponigro, and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.
- [00:16]
B
Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining my Deep Dive today. And we have a very one of my favorite people on earth on our Deep Dive today, it's Nancy Braithwaite. So Nancy and I met probably in the late 80s when I was an editor at House Beautiful and she was a designer in Atlanta. And we were tasked with creating the house of the 90s. So House Beautiful used to do these projects where we would move all of the furniture in and photograph it and then move all of the furniture out. And Nancy and I were together for weeks upon weeks, and it was a real bonding moment. I loved every second of it. She has been my teacher, my friend, my inspiration since then. And Nancy, I'm so grateful that you joined us here today. I mean, you are truly one of one of America's greatest designers. And I think people are in for a treat today. There's no doubt about it. And one of the things that I love about you most, besides the fact that you have incredible integrity and a vision, is the fact that you're very modest and you're not a self promoter and you've managed to arrive at cult status. I mean, I really believe that you have groupie fans. Your book Simplicity is Now in its 15th printing. I think you told me. I mean, I know you've worked your tail off, but you haven't worked on really. You've never had a PR agent or anyone like that. And you have arrived through sheer talent. So thanks for joining us today.
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C
It's fun to be here. It's fun to see you, as always.
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B
So can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you're from, and when you knew you wanted to become an interior designer?
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C
Well, I was born and raised in Chicago. I am so happily a Midwesterner. I just am a Midwesterner. And through the years, I've had lots of clients in Chicago. The moment I get off of the plane, I go, I'm home. I feel like I'm home. The people are polite. They're so friendly. There's a certain sensibility about them that is simplicity. And I relate to that. Not too much makeup, not, you know, just simple.
- [02:35]
B
So when did you know you wanted to become an interior designer?
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C
Well, there wasn't a specific time, but my mother was a very tiny, really beautiful woman. Te tiny if she weighed 100 pounds. That was a lot. And she found it very difficult to find ready made clothes to fit her. They just were not available. So she began to design and make her own clothes. As she sewed, I watched. And guess what? Pretty soon I was designing and making my own clothes and I had the nerve to wear them years later. What really happened that was so helpful is the sewing techniques I had learned. The soft furnishings of an interior, the draperies and the bedspreads and the pillows and all of that require sewing technique knowledge. And once you have that, you can be more creative and artful in your constructions. So that sewing, you know, I always say every interior designer should have, have, you know, two or three semesters of sewing. The workrooms always used to say to me, we love working with you because you understand how things go together. And I do.
- [03:54]
B
All right. So then how did you get your start in interior design then?
- [03:59]
C
Well, I graduated from Michigan State University and I began my career as an industrial designer with Sunbeam Corporation. Along the way, I met my husband Jim, and we moved to Atlanta. And at the time, House and Garden was a very well read shelter magazine and it was popular and everybody would die to be in it. And they ran an article from time to time that was young designers to watch and they encouraged you to send in your work. And I sent my work in and they published it. I was beyond. I was someplace way beyond. I was so thrilled. I really thought, well, my design career is beginning. What I didn't know at the time is it my design education. My education was really beginning. I didn't even know what I didn't know.
- [05:02]
B
And then what happened then, you know, obviously you got clients and all that kind of thing. So what was the next chain of events?
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C
The big thing that happened to me then was I'll never forget it. I was really struggling with my own living room. And, you know, a great place for a designer to hone their craft is in your own home. Because no one's, you know, being critical. You can do anything you want. And I was really struggling with the design of my living room. A friend came over, one of my best friends, and said, well, can't you just make it pretty? And I went, what does that mean? I thought, well, I can do pretty. I wanted something more. Pretty was just not enough. And a week or so later, I went to the Kips Bay Show House in New York and there I saw a library that was designed by Thierry Despont, the French architect and designer.
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B
Yes, such a talented man.
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C
Oh my God. I just Stood there. I was mesmerized. I didn't even know what was going on. And I'm sure they would like me to move along a little bit, because I was planted, because I couldn't quite understand what had happened. And I thought, you know what? This is something more, and I need to find out what this is. And I began my quest for something more.
- [06:32]
B
And you did it mostly at home as your experiment, and then you wound up getting clients. Is that what happened?
- [06:37]
C
Well, it took me a long while to find out what it was, and I always played at home because I wasn't cruising, but I began to play in my clients rooms. It was. It was a revelation to me. That design was so very important, and it really had real meaning, and so much of it turns out to be just fluff. But the really good stuff is wonderful. Just wonderful.
- [07:10]
B
Yeah. Well, you really do have such a unique way of seeing things and distilling things. I think that is. I mean, obviously, you're a creator, but you're also a distiller. You know, I really think that you get things down to their essence, which is so unusual. There's no fluff.
- [07:27]
C
You know, I now see my interiors in a very, very specific way. I think my role as an interior designer, I take this very seriously, is to create unique environments. Unique. Much like Thierry Despond had done, with clear, forceful, powerful visual statements. And that's what. I don't want to walk into a room, go, huh? All right. I want to go into. Walk into a room and say, I want to be. I want to be enveloped with a visual memory. I really do. It's really. It's what drives me completely. And I work and I work and I work until I get to that. That point.
- [08:12]
B
Some people must have thought you were crazy, right? I mean, you know, here's this woman who is so deliberate and unusual. Did you ever run into that where people didn't understand who.
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C
Who. I tried not to let anybody know how I was working so hard. You know, I'd like to, because that doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence with someone that you're spending a lot of money with and time with. And I just. I would come home and work, and I study, and then I studied some more, but I knew there was something more out there. I knew that the track I was on, I would look at some, you know, again, like Thierry Despond, or I would look at Albert Hadley room, a Billy Baldwin room. You know, they were. There was something very different, and you knew it instantly. When you saw it, I mean, you.
- [09:07]
B
Didn'T copy it and you took the lessons from it and you made it your own.
- [09:10]
C
Right? Yeah. And, you know, I love interiors once again that captivate the senses and have the viewer going, wow. You know, the oohs and ahs. I go for the ooze and ahs because I think, oh, I go, good.
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B
But you have to feel that too, probably, right? I mean, you're striving for.
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C
Oh, yeah. Oh, I can't. No, it's not. I don't let them know. But I have to work and work and work till I reach what I call my PowerPoint. Yeah, do that. I walk away. I rest for a day or two or whatever the timing happens to be. Then I go back and look again, and my eye is full, fully filled. My senses are kind of titillated. I know I've done that. I know I've done the job I need to do.
- [10:04]
B
Yeah. I remember when we did that house of the 90s. We had a lot of late nights, but we were struggling with the living room because House Beautiful back then was a pretty commercial magazine. It wasn't exactly an artful magazine. And you had your own sensibility that you wanted to get across, but it also had to be somewhat commercial because of the magazine that we were, you know, creating for. And we had found this screen that had mother of. The mother of pearl.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Like inlay, like in a checker, in a. In a square. And we were struggling with the room because it just didn't have that power that you were talking about. And you had the idea of creating a checkerboard in the screen. And we cut out, like, blue construction paper, put it in every other one, and it was genius. It was like all of a sudden, sudden something that was rather bland had a point of view. It was such a simple thing, and it really carried the room. I mean, I will always remember that.
- [11:01]
C
You know, every part of a room has to have that same excitement. A room is a composition. There are many compositions in a room, and you need to analyze not only the totality of the design of the room, but all these minor compositions because they all add to the whole.
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B
Right, right. When did simplicity come to play such an important role in your work?
- [11:28]
C
Well, it happened very specifically when I met Deanne Levison. She is a dealer in American antiques, a consultant to the distinguished firm of Israel Sac, who specialized in 18th century American antiques, and who were responsible for really, for almost all or a great many of the pieces that are in Winter Tour. They only Dealt with the very finest of the finest and the finest. And she was consultant to them. And she specialized in American antiques as well. I met her and then very shortly after she was asked to exhibit at the Eastside Winter Antique Show. She asked me to design our booth. We had just met, so it was really a moment, a special moment in my life, and I was very excited. So here we are, two little Southern girls going to New York and to the east side Winter Antique Show. Wow. We were so happy. Scared to death. Scared to death. So I designed her booths, and the first one I did was featured in the New York Times. Livingston. Above the fold, no less.
- [12:47]
B
That's so cool.
- [12:49]
C
We got up at 4 in the morning. She went out to get the paper, and there we were and had come by and said, this is very special. Tell me about you and tell me about the setting. We sold everything in the booth the next year. That first year, we were in a terrible position in the show. We were kind of on the outside, obviously, the newcomers. Next year, they move us right in to the center of the show. It was deanne that taught me about authenticity and simplicity. She instilled in me, and to this day, it's still the same, an unwavering regard for the integrity of an object. She'd show me something again, we were at the show, so I was surrounded by all these fabulous antiques. And we'd walk around because we were there for, you know, a week and a half. And she would show me an object, make me examine it. She'd say, look at it, Nancy. Look at it. I'm looking. I'm looking. What is it you see? What do you see? She taught me about the purity in distinguished objects, to understand their form and to comprehend why they're so beautiful. You cannot imagine how fortunate I was. Deanne and I became fast friends, and we spent 30 years doing this, and we spent 30 years collecting with her. It was the most exciting time of my life. And this is another part of my design philosophy that I want things to be the best as they can be, within budget reasons, of course. And I now know how to get there, which is another invaluable lesson. She taught me to see. She taught me to see. And, of course, being able to see is the first step in simplicity. I need to talk a little bit about Albert Hadley, the iconic American designer. This is a quote from him which I think is amazing. He said, seeing is a very difficult thing to do. Most people look at a lot of things, but never really see anything. Looking is emotional. Oh, wow. Look, but seeing is an educational, intellectual process that's powerful.
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B
It gives me the chills.
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C
Well, it's true. It's true. When you see something, it means your eye knows how to focus, compare, and contrast. That's a lot of knowledge to bring to an object. And then you need to evaluate what belongs and what doesn't belong, because if it's a bastard piece, there'll be stuff in there that doesn't belong. And can you imagine how wonderful it is to look at anything, any object, and be able to see what's good about it and what's bad about it? And then you bring all that knowledge to your client when you select pieces for them. It's wonderful. I mean, she, other than my husband, I think, and my children, was one of the most important people in my life for sure, because she taught me all this.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Wasn't easy.
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B
You had to be ready for it, right? I mean, not everybody. Not everybody would be open to that. So you were ready for that. So it's about exposure and being willing to see and educating yourself like a desire, like a passion to educate yourself.
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C
And once you reach that point where your eye has been educated, you can do anything. And I feel, I think today so many designers haven't had the privilege of this education like I have.
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A
We're going to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers and trims. Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. So head to Schumacher.com to check it out.
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B
Tell me a little bit about your. Kind of like the principles that you've developed over the years, because I know.
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C
You have them and I do, and I apply them. I applaud them. And I'm so fortunate. I finally come to a space, a place where I understand. I understand what I need to do. I have developed over the years with a lot of work and experience. My route, what I call my rules, my guidelines, my disciplines. I call them my elements of design. Every project has these elements. No matter what. There is a hierarchy in which I consider them. The first and so much first is architecture. I have such a respect for architecture. Absolutely. To me, it's the most important player in any interior, followed by compositions. A room is made up of several compositions. Then I consider color, then I consider pattern, I consider texture, and finally, authenticity. And I consider them in that order with, again, architecture being the head of.
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B
The group and tell us about the relationship between architecture and interior design.
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C
I think the first and most important design element, like I said, is architecture. I think it is a sculptural skeleton of a room, and it is the most important part of a room. I need to say one thing in caution, though. Something I've learned that interior decoration. We're not talking about architecture. Decoration can either reinforce or haplessly negate architecture. When architecture is true and powerful, the designer's job becomes so much easier. You know, any. Any room that has great bones, any house like yours, it's not hard as long as you don't mess up the architecture.
- [20:07]
B
So what would you do if you were an interior designer and you've been given this job and the architecture is lousy and the budgets aren't packed big enough to fix it? Like, what would you do? Do you have any tips for that?
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C
Yep, I sure do. You pull out the rest of the tools I talked about. You go after the compositions. You can bring scale and power and everything to the competition. Then I think about color. Then after those are big chunks. You know, color is a very potent tool.
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B
Right.
- [20:42]
C
Compositions are an important tool. Architecture is my first element. Design competition. Composition is my next. Composition is nothing more than the arrangement of objects within a given space. Every room contains numerous compositions which we have talked about that range from small to large. The largest of these courses, once again, its architectural footprint, then is followed by its floor plan, Then the larger, to smaller seating compositions, and finally tabletop arrangements. I really believe, most importantly, that these compositions drive the success or the failure of a room.
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B
All right, let's talk about color.
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C
Well, color is another thing that I highly respect. I think it's mysterious. I think it's compelling. I think it can be potent. It's personal. But no two pairs of eyes are alike, and no two people see color in the same way. Color depends on the surrounding light. Light. And it changes constantly from daylight to nightlight. I think one of my most important rules about color. Always choose your color in the room in which is to be used. If you have a favorite den, put your color in. Check what it looks like in daylight or nightlife, and see if you're happy, if you spent a lot of time in this room. For me, anything that is ethereal and slightly mysterious is good. It holds my eye. And I really. The more. The more complex it is, the better I like it.
- [22:40]
B
Okay, next we're going to talk about texture.
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C
Well, that's my fifth element of design. And very simply, every object reveals its character through its surface. Every material is the same thing. I think texture attracts the eye, but also kind of invites the touch. The one thing I want to say here that's so important is when you put a texture on a fabric, make sure the function is considered. You can't put a fragile texture on something that's used all the time. So you need to respect texture and put it where it belongs. And, you know, everything in a room has texture.
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B
All right, let's talk about scale and authenticity a little bit.
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C
Authenticity, as I said before, is, you know, it's my six element design, but it's one of the most important objects. Show what they were, where they have been and how they're used.
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B
I wanted to ask you a little bit about whimsy because one of the things that I find so unique about your work. So, you know, you talk about power and you talk about simplicity, and, you know, you could think it's a little scary if you just heard the words, but when you know you and you see your interiors, there's so much surprise and delight. And I find it interesting that you have a whimsical side because it doesn't seem obvious at face value. So talk a little bit about whimsy and what that does for you.
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C
I think every interior, most. Most often, even the most serious rooms, can benefit from a little touch of whimsy. Now, if the client isn't a whimsical person. No, you. You don't want to do that. But I love Lindsay.
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B
Yeah, it reflects your personality, I think. So tell us a little bit why you like Lalanne so much.
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C
He captivates me. We were in Paris at the Klingon Corps Antique show, and actually, Jim discovered this one Sheep. And I was busy working with a client and an architect, and he said, there's something you need to see. So we kind of escaped away. And I went, oh, my God. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know anything about. I said, buy it. Just buy it. Buy it. It was our first piece of Lalam. It goes back to simplicity. His line, there's not an excess any place. His line is so true, so right and so pure. He doesn't need anything else. And that, I mean, that's my design hero. When things are so simple, they're down to their smallest manipulation. And of course, now all his pieces are in major museums and institutions, and the prices are unbelievable. We have several of the stuff. Pieces were very lucky. I just fell in love with him. We even commissioned him to do Some birds for us.
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B
So what year was it that you found your first sheep?
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C
I think 30 years ago.
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B
Okay.
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C
And he was. We paid nothing for them. He wasn't known then. He wasn't known to me. He's beyond genius to just simply do something and say, I'm done.
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B
Yeah. You have to know when you're done, right?
- [26:25]
C
Yep.
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B
So what are the most important things that every young designer needs to learn and understand? I always like finishing with that question because, you know, it's. It's important for you to share those insights.
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C
Well, I think I've talked about it already. I'll just, you know, say it again. Educate your eye. Educate your eye. Find concept that makes you happy. Develop it and stick to it. Experiment, but always educate your eye and care about your craft. I mean, anybody that's successful cares about their craft. So you have to learn to work your craft. You have to learn to set your rules, set your disciplines, set your guides, decide what it is that's important. For me, it was always. It developed into simplicity. And the education of the eye is everything to me. Interior design is fun, but I think it's also pretty serious. You know, a client depends on you and looks to you, and I think you need to give them the respect of training your eye to give back to them.
- [27:54]
B
Well, that is great advice. This was amazing. I am so appreciative of your joining us, and it was so great to see you. I haven't seen you in so long. I've talked to you, but I haven't seen your face. You are a genius, one of a kind, with a one of a kind approach to design. And I'm grateful you're in my life. So thanks.
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C
And I'm grateful you're in my life.
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B
All right, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, everyone, for joining.
- [28:22]
A
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.