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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series.
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B
In which Frederick's editor in chief, Dara Caponigro, and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating. I'm Emma Bazillion and I am the content director at Frederick magazine. And thank you everyone, so much for joining today's Deep Dive podcast. Our guests, Bunny Williams and Elizabeth Lawrence really need no introduction, but here's a little bit of information about them anyway. Bunny Williams founded her eponymous design firm in 1988, and since then has built a legacy of incredible, layered, classic, and just really soulful design. In 2017, Elizabeth Lawrence was named the firm's first ever partner, which led to the renaming of the firm as Williams Lawrence in 2023. Renowned for balancing refined beauty with welcoming and livable appeal, their work is rooted in tradition and history and exudes a creative, contemporary vision for unexpected, timeless spaces that, above all, celebrate the personalities and styles and lives of their clients. So, Bunny and Elizabeth, thank you so, so much for joining us today and sitting down for a chat.
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C
Well, thank you for having us because we're such fans of Frederick and the whole team, so we are honored to be a part of this.
- [01:28]
A
Yes, we're very excited.
- [01:29]
B
So I guess just to kick off, can both of you tell me, just briefly, how did you enter the world of design?
- [01:36]
C
Well, I kind of knew from a very early age it's what I wanted to do. I tell this story a lot, but when I was a teenager, I was probably about 16, I went with my parents to the launching of the Greenbrier Hotel. And a famous designer, Dorothy Draper, had just finished completing this entire hotel. And I was blown away. I had never seen anything like it. Emerald green walls, you know, plaster palm tree pilasters, black background carpet with cabbage roses. And it kind of put a bee in my bonnet that if I was ever wanted to do anything, I've always been creative, it would be interior design. And so when it was time for college, my parents wanted me to go to a liberal arts college and I didn't want to do that. So I found myself a junior college that had an interior design program. And it just is all gone from there.
- [02:31]
A
It's so funny because I can remember specifically the first time my family stayed at the Greenbrier and having that same reaction. But I never thought it was something I could do as a career. So I went to undergrad at the University of Richmond and I started to get really interested in photography and was doing photography. And then after college, I Had this heart to heart with my mom, and I said, you know, I like photography, but I don't want to shoot weddings on the weekends to make ends meet. And she said, well, why don't you go to take some interior design classes? And I said, oh, that's something I could do as a career. You know, it had always just been something that my mom and I did together, my mom was doing. And so I moved to New York, and I went to New York School of Interior Design. And after my first year there, I said, I need an internship. And so I started sending resumes. And my mom said, well, why don't you send a resume to Bunny Williams? And I said, mom, I don't think Bunny has interns. And she said, well, you never know. So I sent it, and they were the first people to call me, and they offered me a summer internship. And so always listen to your mother. And then I met Bunny, and I was an intern. And I was an intern for a while, and then, you know, I kind of rose up through the ranks. And it's been a wonderful experience. It's been wonderful to feel like I was raised here in interior design. You know, I call Bunny my design mother. There's a real history for me here, and I love the history of this firm.
- [03:55]
B
I mean, I think everyone was so excited when the Williams Lawrence announcement came out. And, you know, you really put your. Not just your stamp on the firm, but your name was on the door now. And I find it just really fascinating because, you know, you see so many young designers, they work for, you know, an established firm, and then they go out on their own. I think it was you said in 2016, you had approached Bunny about, you know, taking your next step and wanting to go out on your own. Instead, you ended up becoming a partner in the firm. So, Bunny, can you tell us a little bit about your decision to promote Elizabet to partner and add her to the business name. And, you know, kind of why, Elizabeth, you really embraced, you know, this partnership model rather than wanting just your own name on the door of an interior design firm.
- [04:45]
C
You know, it's very interesting because I went through the same issue when I was at Parrish Hadley for 22 years. And I started out, you know, as Mr. Hadley's secretary, you know, the shopper, whatever. And what was interesting is that they. I love that firm. I love being there. But it was almost impossible for Mrs. Parish, particularly to give up any part of the firm. I mean, it was to her, it was her firm. And so I left. I Started my own firm and I realized how important it is to take care of the people who work with you who have come in learned. I hope that, you know, Elizabeth is such a big part of this company in many, many ways, not only creatively, but business wise. She has an amazing vision. Things I don't even think about, she thinks about. And I'm just hoping for her that for her future being a part of this firm will open doors for her. That it's a legacy that I hope means something in the design world. And it didn't take me long, you know, to really think about it. When Elizabeth came to me about the future, I'm like, of course your future's here. I mean, I can't imagine it any other way. And so I was thrilled when we could make that happen.
- [06:15]
A
I had never really thought that a partnership was, was something that would happen. And just because I hadn't seen it really happen very many other places in the interior design world, you know, I see a lot of people leave and do their own thing. And I love being here. I've always loved being here. There's a really great culture, it's a really great group. So, you know, I went to Bunny and I said, I'm thinking about this. And Bunny immediately said, well, it's here. And I was just totally blown away by that because she had been in a way, thinking about that and she's so forward thinking, you know, she's thinking about what's next and she's not getting caught up in any ego about that. And, and she's sharing. And I was totally blown away by it. I said, I never even thought it was a possibility. So I said, give me a minute, let me think about this. And I remember I called my now husband of the time and I said, and he said, what? And I mean, we were both just like, you know, this is unbelievable. One thing I said to Bunny is I said, I want more of a hand in the day to day running of the office and the business side. And she said, sure, go at it. That immediately made me really feel like I had something to add. And there's a legacy here. I always say to Bunny, if I am successful, this will go on beyond me. And that's the goal. And there's a legacy of good work, really great customer service, because that's really a big part of it. And we've had good people here at the office and the firm and I, we want to continue that. And I understand that. And I've been through kind of every position Here, and it's really exciting. And I think, you know, it's exciting for younger people to see that this is an. This is a possibility and they should stay and learn also.
- [08:00]
C
Elizabeth and I may be the creative forces in. In this team, but it takes a team to do the projects that we do. And when you come in, our coordinators, our, you know, all of the people have been here for a while, they have trained, they're happy here. And it's why we can produce the amount of work we do, produce it on time, make our clients happy, because we understand the process, as does our whole team. I remember someone said to me, why didn't you go out on your own before when you were at Parish Hadley? And I said, because at Parish Hadley, I had this backdrop. I had an accounting office, I had. I had the infrastructure. And you start on your own and you have no infrastructure. And so I think people can get into trouble when they don't understand how important the infrastructure of a business is. And we are a business. And I think Elizabeth, through, certainly through a lot of Elizabeth's doing, we have this great infrastructure in this company, and we love that. And it allows Elizabeth and me to be more creative and to do the things that we do best because we can depend on the rest of the team to do their roles. And also, if you don't perform, I mean, the hardest thing, if you're a young designer trying to start out on your own, if you don't perform, your. Your reputation can be ruined in one job because everyone says, oh, well, don't hire him or her, because we didn't get our sofa in time and it was the wrong size and this didn't happen. And, you know, the things that can go wrong in this business are extraordinary, and we probably all had them, but luckily we can head them off at the pass.
- [09:47]
B
Since you're officially made partner, what changes have you implemented or kind of how is. How has the business evolved?
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A
It's been some things with hr and, you know, it goes back to this. We. This whole thing we keep saying about how we have a great team. Bunny's. She doesn't want to stand over someone while they're doing their work. She trusts them to do their work. And it's. It's more of implementing that. We trust everyone in the. In the office to do what needs to be done to get the job done. And so, you know, it was about kind of giving people a little bit more freedom to do that if. If they needed a little bit more time here off because they traveled, you know, working some of those things out. And we've looked at our contracts. We've updated things for the future. Every time we do a project, something happens, and we say, oh, we need to add this to the contract. And so we've updated these things. We've progressed. And so, you know, even interviewing new people, I sit down with other people in the office, and we interview as a group. So it's about making everyone involved in the process and feeling like they have somewhat of a say.
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B
Are there kind of differences in your design aesthetics, approaches that complement each other?
- [10:58]
C
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, first of all, there's an age difference that lets you look at things in a different way. I think having a young eye and a young approach to how people live is essential. You know, and I'm always love to try to push something and try something new, and. And I think that that experience gives you the confidence to say, well, why don't we try this? Have we ever thought of this? Something a little. Maybe a little outrageous. But, you know, we share that enthusiasm in design, and I do think we're kindred spirits about how our room should be put together, how we want to live. But she has a much more vibrant sense of color, maybe, than I do. So there's. There are things that. That are very good, and you want. You don't want everything to be the same and our projects aren't the same. I mean, the thing that's interesting in the body of work we do, I mean, Elizabeth and I have done very contemporary apartments, and we. People don't quite understand. They think we have a look. Well, I think we have a quality, and I think we have a sensibility to making rooms livable, but not just that they're traditional or modern or, you know, we like to mix things up a lot.
- [12:19]
B
Elizabeth, how do you feel like you have been able to, you know, kind of build your own sensibility?
- [12:26]
A
So I think Bunny's always very encouraging of that. And, you know, if we're working on a project together, sometimes I bring her something and I'm going, in my head, I'm going. I don't know. I don't know if she's going to like this, you know, and sometimes she loves it, and sometimes she looks at me and kind of raises an eyebrow and says, well, let's see. And, you know, so there's a comfort there in being able to try new things. And one thing that Bunny has always encouraged in everyone is what's new. Explore. Go see. It has made me more Aware of constantly trying to look and find the new thing. And so she's instilled that confidence in me to explore that. And it's fun. I think everything Bunny does, I'm always like, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. But because I respond to it. And we do have, as Bunny said, we have this kindred spirit about our design sense. And we do. You know, it's the other thing Bunny said about we're doing modern spaces that people don't see. And so when we're doing those modern spaces, we're. That's when you really have to say, what's new? You know, who's the new artist? And kind of go out of your comfort zone.
- [13:32]
B
You know, I'm sure that there are times when you do disagree. When that happens, how do you. How do you work through it?
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C
We don't disagree. We really don't. You know, I trust her explicitly and, you know, I know whatever she does, it may be pushing my envelope, but I know it'll still be something I find creative and imaginative. A partnership is. It's like a marriage, you know, you've got to make sure that the values, that the person that you're going to be with is your values. And Elizabeth, from the day I met her, she is creative, talented, but understated. There's no ego. She's just a wonderful person. And, you know, there's a lot of complicated people in our business, and egos can get out of hand and the pretentiousness can get out of hand. So I think that being with Elizabeth is, you know, we. We see eye to eye on so many things.
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B
I feel like you should be hosting a marriage advice podcast. I mean, this sounds like the healthiest relationship I've heard about.
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C
But, you know, oftentimes people, I mean, whether it's. Whether it's a romance or a business thing, you. You sometimes think, oh, I'm going to pick the opposite of me, you know, and that often can be, you know, not work, because that's where you have too much conflict. There are things that are. That Elizabeth is much better at than I am, like looking at the business. I mean, I just didn't do that. And she's. She's amazing that way. But I think that you have to have. The core values have to be similar for a relationship to work.
- [15:19]
A
We're going to take a quick break.
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B
To thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers and trims Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. So head to Schumacher.com to check it out. Do you find that being on social media and having that as a tool, does it make your job easier or harder?
- [15:53]
C
The thing that bothers me the most about it is that it became a crutch for people where they thought they were learning about design by going on Instagram. They didn't go look at things. They printed out Pauline Rothschild's bedroom or this or that and they copied it. You know, they're like, oh, this was a famous room. Well, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And I think the creativity went down the tubes because when I was, you know, started out, we had magazines for sure, but you had to go look at things, you had to hunt them out. You also had to go shopping. There was no first dibs, there was no ability to shop online. And it worries me that I think there's a dumbing down of people's exposure to exterior design. You have got to go into a room to feel it. It doesn't look the same on an 8 by 10 photograph. I'm sorry. And you've got to, you know, get into spaces and try to understand, try to what I call feel a space if you're going to be good in this business. So I think that I been around so long, I look at all these rooms and I'm like, oh, that's a copy of so and so's room. And I saw that room and that was Alberto Pinto someplace. Or this was Jacques Grange, or this was, you know, you see these influences that. But they're not from the creative soul of a person. It's what they've deemed that they've gotten from Instagram. Social media. I don't know. I mean, yes, I think it, you need it. I have a furniture company, you know, I have a new book for sure. You, you want an audience to hopefully buy your book and look at your furniture. I think that social media people have created design careers on social media. People who had no experience have created a profession with social media. I find that amazing. As Elizabeth knows, I usually have to get somebody to do my Instagrams. I mean, I get the picture and then I screw it up on the phone and whatever. I mean, I mean to do it, I meant it to do it this weekend and I wanted to post two pictures but I couldn't figure out it wouldn't let me post the two Pictures. I was so frustrated, so I don't use it as a tool, but I realize that is where it is. And a lot of people who have a big name now, they created their career, not like I did, working for 22 years for power, sadly, but on Instagram, on social media. And I don't know how I feel about that.
- [18:34]
B
And Elizabeth, you know, as someone who has come up more in the age of social media, I mean, how do you approach it in your work?
- [18:42]
A
My younger clients are sending me things on social media constantly and, you know, pictures of famous rooms, pictures of things they've seen on their friends, Instagrams, through their travels. But I want to make sure that whatever we're doing for them doesn't feel like a copy of this famous room that they've seen for me creatively and for them, unless there's something very specific that they're just in love with, a wallpaper or something. So they're seeing more, I think, than they used to, you know, than a client used to. You know, a client only had access to magazines or books before, and now they have access to magazines, books, and social media. And social media has it all. So they're more exposed.
- [19:26]
B
I mean, if someone sends you a, you know, a photo of like a Gloria Vanderbilt's apartment and say, you know, I want this, and how do you kind of tell a client, you know, I'm not going to remake this room for you, but, you know, here's kind of what we can do to bring that spirit into your space.
- [19:42]
A
Well, sometimes I think it's really about dissecting what they love about the photo, because sometimes it's not the whole room. Sometimes it's just a wall color or it's the rug, or it's the collection of china in the cabinet. And so it's really about talking to them. What do you love about it? You know, what. What aspects of this do we want to pull from? And they. They usually come around to, yeah, I don't want to copy someone else's. I want something that is unique. And I think people who come to us want that. You know, they're looking for something that their friend doesn't have.
- [20:15]
C
We were. I have to laugh, though. We. We were starting a project, and Elizabeth asked the clients, they were younger to send us. They said, do you have a scheme boards or do you have mood boards or whatever? Oh, yes. And so they send this big notebook full of pictures that they'd been printing out from Instagram, social media. It was all over the map, Elizabeth and I were looking at and I said, okay, we have an all white room here. We have a purple and chartreuse room over here. We have a minimal room here. We couldn't figure out from this thing that they sent us of what their real direction was. So that's the other thing I think that can happen is that people look at things and it comes down to the content of what you're doing. So you have to get them back on track to say, okay, where's your house? What's what, what is your project? Because you'll find that the minute they can focus on their lifestyle, their house, their project, those things don't seem as important.
- [21:21]
B
I feel very much like that client of yours. Half the time I'm like, you know, I want an all white room with just linen. And you know, then you see a photo of a room that's covered in chintz and you're. Well, that's what I. I mean, it really. There's a lot of beauty in the world and it's very hard to kind of distill that into what you want in your own space.
- [21:37]
C
You know, I always say that an all white room has got to have some very good things in it. You either have to have some major art or some major furniture, or you're just going to look like, you know, I'm sorry, a catalog. And it's color and pattern when you're starting out. I know with myself, when I first bought my house in the country, I didn't have anything. I didn't have a piece of furniture, I didn't have a picture on the wall, so I had a lot more pattern, I had a lot more color because I didn't have things. And over the years, as I've bought more art, as I've bought better furniture, I've toned down the decorating because I didn't need the decorating as much because I'd, over all these years have gotten better things. So I often think that, you know, it's great when you're starting out and you don't have a lot color and pattern and everything. You can do a lot with it and it can be exciting and, you know, you may change over time. I always encourage, we encourage our clients to buy the best they can and that it not be throw away. And so Elizabeth and I both, particularly with young, tried, try to get them to buy one or two good pieces of furniture. And you know, we skimp on other places because that's the good paintings and the good furniture that they'll have Forever.
- [23:04]
B
You know, one of the things that I love so much about English decorating, there is much more of an embrace of color and pattern and a willingness to experiment and combine things. What inspires you about that?
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C
The whole thing about the influence of English houses of which I've gone to see many, many. What was interesting is many of the houses that we that exist, that we that are famous, were lived in by generations and generations and generations, and each one of those generations traveled. They courted the furniture designers of their time, the painters of their time. So because a family passes on a house from generation to generation, it changes in a way, because each generation brings a newness to that place. And so you're. You're fascinated by that. I mean, that's what, to me, is the kind of essence of English design, is that you can have an 18th century chair with a modern painting over it. And to me, that's what's always been so exciting about what I call the English interior, is that they were willing to, you know, put Roman antiquities with, you know, modern art, with chintz. You know, what's better than a chintz chair and a Rothko? I mean, it's fabulous. And they would do that. It, to me, sort of undecorates the whole thing. It makes it have a personality. I. I think Americans want. Often want things more decorated. They want it more matched. I mean, how many times has somebody said, oh, it doesn't exactly match? And I said, well, it doesn't. It has to blend. It doesn't have to match. But, you know, it's. It's their casualness about it, and it makes it very cozy and warm, and everybody walks in those rooms and they're happy.
- [25:01]
B
You know, I've seen a handful of projects of yours that do really surprise in their modern sensibility. What is it that you enjoy about working on these more modern projects? And where does that fit into your business?
- [25:16]
C
I don't think any of us want to be stayed. It's interesting in design. Some people had a look, and they did it over and over and over again. And you knew whose room that was. I thought, I don't really want to have a look because I don't want to do the same thing over and over again. How boring is that? I don't have to get out of bed to just repeat the same scheme 55 times. So I think it's our curiosity. I mean, Elizabeth and I talk about this all the time. It's looking for that thing that's new, is thinking about the space and saying, Okay, I could do this in my sleep, but how can I. Bland and interesting and exciting, and maybe it's getting older. I don't want to feel old now. I don't want to wear a tutu and purple hair. But, you know, you want to try new things. From the design standpoint, it's a little bit like, okay, I look at every project. I think Elizabeth does, too. This is a blank slate. Where are we going with this? That's what keeps your adrenaline going.
- [26:19]
B
I also. I know you have a garden book, A new garden book. Not your first, of course. I mean, how did you become such, you know, a passionate gardener and landscape designer?
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C
You know, it's funny. I bought. I bought our house in the country 40 years ago, and I really bought it because I wanted a garden and I knew nothing, but I used to just love, on the weekends, going out and digging a hole in ground and planting something. And I love flowers. And, you know, my mother was a gardener, and I grew up in the country, and I like the country. And so we bought this house. I ordered my first garden from a company called Wayside Gardens. They sent me the plan and the plants. I mean, I didn't know a petunia from a, you know, hydrangea, and it just grew from there. And I think that being you know, a designer, I have amazing garden friends who are much better plants people than I am. But I'm hoping that I combine the plants world with the design world. And so over the years, I've just gone on and created this monster of a garden that I love, and my greenhouses and the conservatory, and it's just, you know, it just gives me so much pleasure. And this book is. It's interesting because I wasn't going to do another book, but it's called Life in the Garden. But I think when I look back on it, when I bought this house 40 years ago, I knew I wanted to create a home. My mother died when I was 23. My father remarried. We didn't live in a family house. You know, he built a house in Long Island I missed growing up in, where we had family home. My cousins lived down the road, my great outburter. It was all about family. And I was, you know, in my 30s, but I thought, I want to have a house that I'm going to have forever. And so this book, it's. It's about the garden, but it's life in the garden. And it's my nephew's wedding. It's my niece and her husband and the baby and it's the dogs and it's the greenhouse and it's, it's garden tours, it's everything. It's inside, outside, and it's very personal. And it is about this home that I have created over 40 years. And the last chapter in the book is my nephew, who's a wonderful writer, talking about coming there from when he was a child. And he's come there since he was born and now his children come and he shares that memory of what this home has meant to him and his family and my family.
- [28:59]
B
I really, I feel like that the idea of kind of building something for future generations, you know, whether it's your own business or your homes or gardens, is just something that, you know, seems so important and such a core part of how you approach design and life. And it's just really, it's wonderful kind of being able to think ahead like that. Of course, your skill at decorating with antiques is unparalleled and kind of mixing eras and genres and, you know, just sourcing incredible things. So how do you train your eye to know what you're looking for and you know, be able to find these incredible, one of a kind antiques?
- [29:35]
C
You go look at the best all the time. And I mean, you should go, you should go to an auction house, you should go to a museum, you should go look at the very best furniture you possibly can see because that's where you learn what's called patina. That's where you learn the color of wood. I mean, when I was in my 20s, I would spend almost every Saturday at Sotheby's, Park Burnett in their auction room. You know, it's an education. And if you educate yourself, talk to dealers, don't be afraid to walk into a shop. The dealer's excited to have somebody walk in and talk to them. And even if you can't buy anything, you will learn something and see it. You have to see things to learn about good furniture. And that's when you can then go to the junk store or the place that nobody's going to and find something good because you've trained your eye.
- [30:34]
B
What to you is the, is really the key ingredient in making a house.
- [30:39]
C
Into a home comfort scale and thinking about how people are going to live in that room. You know, I always say I started Bunny Williams home because I couldn't find drinks tables. I mean, I can't stand sitting down in a chair in a room and I've got a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and there's no place to put It. So there are these things that you think about that make people feel comfortable. Because I always say, you know, not everybody who comes to my house really cares about interior design. I mean, I have a lot of friends I love, I mean, wonderful gardeners. I mean, they're not. They may be great gardeners, but they. They're not. You know, they're not. They don't want to look at every piece of furniture I own. But I want those people to be comfortable in my house. And I think it's the way we arrange furniture. We, you know, are you going to watch television? Where's the television? Can everybody see it? What's going to happen in this room? And when you make that work, then you make a room, whether it's. Whether it's traditional or modern, that functions.
- [31:48]
A
I agree with all of that. I mean, the function of it for a client. And it's so interesting because you learn all these personal things about them, asking these questions, how they will live, even to, where do you plug your cell phone in at night to charge? And, you know. Or, you know, where do you want to plug in your hair dryer? Where do you want your hair dryer stored? But it's all those little things that make their lives so much easier. And when the house is done and they've been living in it, they say, I really can live here. You know, from the seating plan to those little things about, you know, where they're putting the remote control or plugging in their cell phone at night. And it's those details that really matter.
- [32:24]
C
I find a room that's a little bit more organic, allows you. If something moves a little bit, it's okay. And I think that that, again, adds to a comfort level in a space. But then also, you know, I'm fairly casual. I mean, obviously, I use a room when people leave, I go tidied up and puff the pillows. But we like mismatched things. We like things that we kind of go to an extreme to make it not perfect so that it's more approachable, too.
- [33:00]
A
That way people don't feel uncomfortable sitting in your, you know, one fancy chair, you know, or, you know, oh, if I move this a little, it's really, as Bunny says, you know, making people feel welcome.
- [33:11]
C
And you want a room with what I call highs and lows. I mean, I always say, you know, a boule cabinet. I mean, which is the most expensive inlaid kind of furniture you can have, should have a basket on it. I like. I like the juxtaposition of high and low. I mean, if everything is too high or too low, then it's cookie cutter.
- [33:32]
B
Well, thank you both so, so much for joining us. We are just so excited to see how your business evolves and how your work evolves and, you know, just kind of bringing your. Bringing your name and your firm into the next generation of design is really thrilling to watch because you don't get to see that every day.
- [33:51]
C
I'm the luckiest person in the whole world when Elizabeth applied for her internship. So I am really, really blessed. And thank you so much for having us today.
- [34:01]
A
Yes. Thank you so much.
- [34:04]
B
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.