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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Derek Caponigro, and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.
- [00:16]
B
I am Hudson Moore, the senior design editor of Frederick. I am so excited to introduce our guest on today's Deep Dive. She is an icon in the fashion and design publishing world and has recently launched her second career as a craftsperson. I recently had the pleasure of shooting her new collection for Schumacher at her home on the Hudson. Please welcome Marion McAvoy.
- [00:38]
C
Hello, Hudson. How are you?
- [00:41]
B
Hi. I'm fine. How are you?
- [00:43]
C
Good. Congratulations on your book.
- [00:46]
B
Oh, goodness, thank you. Well, I would love to get started by you just talking us through your editing career. I'd love to have you walk us through the highlights.
- [00:57]
C
Well, I'm a Californian, went to usc, party girl, had a great time there, flunked out, moved to New York to work for Women's Wear Daily and W. And they sent me to Paris, where I was a fashion editor. I mean, I was there along with Saint Laurent and Lagerfeld and Kenzo and Givenchy, and it was absolute heaven. And I was very young and very green and very scared. But I learned. I learned, I watched, I listened, and I picked up a lot of things I could have never picked up anywhere else. I was very lucky. And fashion was the, I guess, the gateway into design. I think fashion is very much a younger person's game, quite frankly. If you're good at it, you're young, you're going to take risks, you're going to be brave, you're going to go crazy. You're going to say, why not? Then suddenly life occurs and you spend more time at home, and your home becomes the center of fascination. And it happened with me. I think probably by the time I was late 30s or 40, I was ready to explore the miracles and depths of design and living well. It was very natural for me to go from fashion to. From dresses to rooms. Not that I don't care about dresses today. It's just I kind of figured most of that out. And the room part you never figure out. I mean, it's. It could go on generations and, you know, the mysteries of decoration are pretty profound, don't you think?
- [02:53]
B
Totally.
- [02:54]
C
There's always something to learn.
- [02:56]
B
Absolutely. So you came back from Paris?
- [03:00]
C
Yes, about 17 years later. Meaning I had a thorough saturation with the kind of crazy and dangerous and wonderful and beautiful French culture and Italian and English, because as a fashion editor, I was constantly Going to other countries to see different designers and collections. So it wasn't just Paris. It was pretty much all of Western Europe.
- [03:30]
B
How did your time spent there in Europe influence you?
- [03:34]
C
Profoundly. I mean, to this day, it's maybe some of the food I serve, my color preferences, my love of trim, incredible, crazy details. I mean, Europeans are different than we are Americans. I think of us as having great verve, great straightforwardness. Brave Europeans have had centuries more of figuring out how to live beautifully and well, and they know some more things than we do. There's nothing wrong with that. We, however, have, I think, fabulous enthusiasm that's immediately apparent in a way, whereas a European enthusiasm might be clouded by extremely polite and good behavior. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [04:31]
B
I've never thought about it that way. That's so interesting.
- [04:34]
C
Well, and what the Europeans, I think, liked about me and my American cohorts at, let's say, Women's Wear Daily or any magazine there was that kind of unbridled enthusiasm and curiosity about their culture. That's kind of winning, don't you think?
- [04:55]
B
Totally.
- [04:56]
C
If somebody's curious about what you're doing, you. You're going to tell them what you're doing, and you're going to be nice to them.
- [05:04]
B
I've read in interviews that you had several mentors while you were there in Europe, one of them being Saint Laurent. What would you say that he taught.
- [05:14]
C
You the best taste and color sense and naughtiness ever? Everything was so right and so perfect and so crisp and daring but charming. He just had a way of doing things that even the craziest stuff he did was ravishing. There was a way of approaching, and he wasn't a braggart, and he was mysterious. And, yes, he was troubled and truly, truly a genius. And I guess the main thing is that man's color sense was beyond anything I have ever, ever, ever come across ever again. Impossibly good and unpredictable.
- [06:07]
B
I'd love to talk about your color sense, because I find you have an incredible sense for color, namely your signature of black, white, and red. Tell me about your devotion and love for that palette.
- [06:24]
C
I love it because I think it's very bold. I'm not saying I'm very bold, but you can't miss it. It's highly contrasted. I love a high contrast. Also, the color red is sensual. It's welcoming, it's flattering, it's suggestive, it's fun, it's festive. It's a wonderful color to live with. I have recently, thanks to Kate at krb, and my friend Madison Cox started to understand green. And green, of course, is the color of nature. Meaning it should be the most beautiful color of all, shouldn't it? You know, spring starts coming, it ain't coming up in turquoise, honey. It's green. It's green and green and so many different greens. Anyway, I've been exploring greens lately, but I think red, black and white is probably my. You're right, my all time favorite. I like yellow too.
- [07:30]
B
Oh, I love green and yellow too. So you used to give a speech I read somewhere called the 12 Steps of Style.
- [07:39]
C
Oh, my God.
- [07:41]
B
I'd love to know a few of those steps if you remember them.
- [07:45]
C
I don't. Oh, here's one that I really believe in. If you have nothing antique in your house, you don't care about the past or you don't have a past. If you have nothing contemporary in your house, you have no future. I think a good room always has a reference to something, some excellent thing in the past or something you love about past days gone by. And if you don't have something that's new, that tells me you don't care much about your own time. We all live in a certain time, and I think we should reflect that time. Not in everything in a house, but at least in a few things. For instance, you have contemporary art on the walls. Why not 18th century furniture and the reverse? You have no furniture. And beyond, you've got, I don't know, everything in there was made in the last 50 years. Maybe you have old masters on the walls. How fabulous would that be? Contrast.
- [09:01]
B
Absolutely.
- [09:02]
C
Contrast, I think, is a big, A big thing for me. Not all, not all of the same.
- [09:11]
B
I'd love to move to talk a little bit about your craft. So you left your editing positions in the fashion and design world. Yes. Started your new bout as a craft person. How was that transition for you? Did it feel natural?
- [09:27]
C
Yes, because I'd always done things with my hands. I have good hands. I don't know, they're steady. They do what I want them to do. And I've always, I don't know, doodled, done. Not knitting or anything that's too boring. Just, I don't know, finding things, a lot of stuff in the garden and gluing it together. And I've always done stuff like that. And then thanks to, again, Kate at krb, she encouraged me to do this stuff for real, like professionally. And I thought, what, are you crazy? Well, it, it challenged me to do them better, whatever I was doing. You know, collages. With pressed leaves and flowers, for example. I love doing that. I'm crazy about that. People liked it. Hudson, I couldn't believe it. They liked it. So I did more, and that's what happened. And then Dara saw some things that I'd done and said, well, what about fabric? I'm thinking, yeah, fabric, we love it. Pattern, we love it. Our house is, you know, a celebration of those things. Do it for real. So it's thanks to Schumacher that I get to do it for real.
- [10:45]
B
Well, that collection is a real triumph. I mean, it's just amazing.
- [10:49]
C
I don't know. I hope people like it. I hope they like it because it's done with a happy heart and hopefully it's cheery because who wants to be depressed in their own house, for goodness sakes?
- [11:04]
B
Well, I think you totally nailed it. I think it's great. While we were doing the photo shoot for that fun collection with Schumacher, you told me that you don't consider yourself an artist.
- [11:16]
C
No, I. Not a fine artist. Let's say decorative artist. I'll accept outsider artist. Dara called me that once. I thought that was kind of fun. But I am not formally schooled, and I do not want people thinking that I'm comparing myself to Alex Katz, Bryce Martin. You know, I'm not a fine artist. What I do is, I think artistic, but that doesn't make me a fine artist.
- [11:47]
B
Where would you say your inspiration comes from for your collages and your other pieces?
- [11:52]
C
I think this is. First of all, I like geometry. I like repeats. I like things that insist on something. In other words, I am a circular pattern man. You're going to get 500 circles.
- [12:07]
B
Yeah.
- [12:08]
C
And they're going to be maybe a little different, but you're going to get. You're going to insist that circles are what you want. A lot of the collage stuff, the pressed flowers and pressed leaves, came because I had started to garden for the first time at an old age. Like at 60. And what I like most about. I'm a terrible gardener, by the way, but I'm enthusiastic about it. What I liked most was seeing and watching how the different trunks and twigs and branches and buds and how they moved, how they reacted to each other. There was something very, very fascinating about watching or looking at live plants. I didn't try to do the same thing with a dead flower leaf. I. It just started happening. That something I had noticed in a. Let's say, on a Dutch rose bush was of so much interest to me, it almost looked kinetic. I like things that look like they're dancing, but I. But that's not on purpose either. It's just the way it is.
- [13:32]
A
We're going to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers, and trims. Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty, and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. So head to Schumacher.com to check it out.
- [13:58]
B
Your work requires you to spend a lot of time alone.
- [14:03]
C
Yes.
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B
Do you. Do you enjoy that? Is it a. I love it.
- [14:06]
C
I would never, ever, ever have an assistant because it would take more time for me to tell that poor assistant something than actually do it. And the assistant would end up crying and quitting. It would be a disaster. I think. I think I love working alone also. I live in this tiny house on the Hudson. It's incredibly peaceful and there's eagles flying and, you know, the rivers right there. I have plenty of light in my tiny craft room, and I'm happy, happy, happy there. I work standing up, but I work with my back to the view because I don't need to be distracted. Yeah, you know, it's highly deep. Most. Most of the. The work that I do, at least on those collage things, is gluing, and it's very dangerous because if the glue is in the wrong place, the paper's ruined and it's a mess. So I have to concentrate. And I love it. I love. Working is my favorite thing. And then cooking and making dinners and stuff like that.
- [15:14]
B
That's so fun. Well, you're quite the entertainer, too, I hear.
- [15:17]
C
No, I mean, everybody has this idea. It's like I'm whooping it up seven nights a week. Maybe one night or one night and one lunch a week, I'll have friends over, people over.
- [15:31]
B
That's so fun, though. There's something that's so joyous about having other people in your home and getting to share your world with them.
- [15:39]
C
Well, but that is important, isn't it, Hudson? I mean, if you had this gorgeous house, let's say, and you never had anybody over, of course you'd still think it was gorgeous. But you'd be kind of a mean person, don't you think? I mean, or kind of a tortured person.
- [15:58]
B
So insular.
- [15:59]
C
Well, yeah. I mean, nice things are nicer when they're shared often.
- [16:05]
B
Absolutely. I'd love to talk a little bit about your decorating, too. You once said that decorating shouldn't be Scary.
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C
Exactly.
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B
What do you think decorating should be?
- [16:17]
C
Well, I think by scary I meant it shouldn't be intimidating. I think that if one is a monarch and has several billion euros to throw around. Yeah, you're going to do a pretty impressive home situation. I think there are very few people in that realm. You expect kind of a mondo biondo house from a Bezos, right? I mean, come on, he's not going to give you, you know, charming, rustic for his main house. It ain't happening. Okay. And it's appropriate in a way. He's got billions, so it's going to be a billion. Scary looking decor. Now, for those of us not in that category, I think making things to the point where, number one, are you able to move around in it, sit down, look at it without either hating it or being bored by it? So important. And I know that sounds kind of practical, but if you're not somewhat practical, you're going to have a very tough home life. You've got to think about a cushion on that sofa that sinks in in the right way. Someplace where you can actually put your feet up, put your head on the arm, read a book. You don't want to be in a place that's so stiff and so limiting, it's going to make your life really miserable. You know, when I came back to New York from Paris, one of the first people who helped me on my way, let's say, in the decorative world was Albert Hadley. And he said, I don't know, I said I had seen some house, I thought it was so fabulous. And he pointed out that it wasn't appropriate, meaning that either the person was not quite up to the grandeur of the gold leaf or whatever, or that the place was too humble for the dramatic person. In other words, inappropriate. And it's an old fashioned idea, Hudson, but it makes sense. Today you want to fill your little chalet in the woods with Louis Quatorze cans. Or says furniture. I don't think so. Even the craziest of contemporary artists doesn't want to do that and vice versa as well. You're going to fill your chateau near Chantilly with, I don't know, Adirondack deck chairs. Probably not, no. So there's a great lessons to be learned about where's the house, the style of the house, what's the size of the house, what's the light around the house? You know that all these things good designers always consider.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah.
- [19:22]
C
But for those of us who aren't professional designers, we could use some help Right, Absolutely.
- [19:28]
B
I think context is so important. And Albert Hadley was also so good at comfort. He.
- [19:34]
C
He really understood it. He understood. And he would walk in a room and if you. If he didn't want to sit down in a chair, you knew you were in trouble. Yeah, Yeah.
- [19:46]
B
I would say that your home and your work and your whole world is really a testament to playfulness and joy. But what would you like your work to be known for?
- [19:57]
C
Oh, I love that you said that. I'm not an unhappy person. I think I'm hopeful again. I'm happiest when I'm working on a project that's heaven on earth to me. I am a bit of a workhorse. I love my friends and my family, and I. Why be depressed? Why do something in your house that isn't uplifting? And I know I sound like Pollyanna, and I'm not. Trust me. Life should be. Some of it should be a celebration, and you should celebrate it. And good design is essentially about that, I think. Uplifted. Absolutely. I want to be uplifted. But again, I will go to some maybe fabulous manoir or villa or chateau in Europe and look at the divine craftsmanship of various oil paintings and sculpture and so forth. Yes, that's terribly important. But I think for our domestic situations, our homes make them welcoming, make them sensual and something that we love, honestly, truly love and love every day, not just on the weekend, huh?
- [21:18]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [21:19]
C
It makes sense every day that where you fix your coffee looks pretty good because that's going to be one of the first things you see in the morning.
- [21:28]
B
That's so great, Marianne. This has been such a treat.
- [21:32]
C
Well, Hudson, it's always a treat to see you. Come back. And next time, no cameras, no lights, just a giant, giant pot of chili with lots of condiments. How about that?
- [21:45]
B
I'd love it. That sounds so great.
- [21:48]
A
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.