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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Derek Caponigro and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.
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B
I'm Dara Caponigro. I'm the editor in chief of Frederick magazine. And welcome to my Deep Dive. Today we have the eminent American architect Gil Schaeffer with us today. He is one of my favorite architects of all time. And thanks for joining.
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C
Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be back with you.
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B
You've accomplished so many things in the last few years, it's kind of mind boggling. And I mean, you've always been an accomplished architect, obviously, but you have a book out, a new third book. You have a documentary out, which is kind of amazing. Yeah, yeah, you've been on fire. So I wanted to talk about your book because last night I started to read it and I have to say, I was completely blown away by your introduction. I just thought it was so beautiful and so personal and, like, your voice was like. You really, like, just drew me in. It was like I was talking to you.
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C
Oh, thank you.
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B
Yeah. So I wanted to ask you, like, is that something that you've always been able to do? Is it something you had to work on? How did you get to that place where you talk so personally to the people reading the book?
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C
Yeah, I guess that's a really good question. I think that when you design houses, they're so personal. It's such a personal relationship that you have to be kind of available emotionally, in a way, to your clients, and you have to make a connection to them, I think, to succeed. And. I don't know. So as I sat down to write my first book, I worked with. I've always worked with Jill Cohen, who you probably know, who's someone who helps guide architects and designers in the process of putting together a book. And she said that people really want to, you know, in order for people to engage with you, they have to really kind of know you and understand you. And, you know, that was something that I then had to work on because I think architects, if left to their own devices, they do these very dry academic monographs where they lay out the project one after another and they show all their drawings and. And that's great, but not that many people are really interested in reading that other architects are, but most clients are like, it just. It's like, it's not that engaging. So the more human side of life and. And the things that. The experiences that and memories that shape, I found that shape houses for my clients. And my ability to tap into that, I discovered through the course of doing my books was really. Because I was thinking a lot about my own memories. And so. And the way I grew up and the way I lived and the houses I saw. And that enabled me to maybe for certain clients, the ones that came to me and felt like I connected with them, it enabled me to connect with them because I had experience that could hopefully in some way relate to theirs or the, you know, in their own houses and in the one they wanted. So I always thought, okay, well, so if I'm connecting to my clients on that level, I need to keep going with that. And. And then a lot of stuff happened in life in the last five to seven years, I guess, since the last time I wrote a book, you know, I. I got married and I had a wife and a family. I had teenagers in my life, which was completely mind blowing. So it was. It was. There was stuff to write about.
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B
Yeah, yeah. You said that all that stuff made you a better architect. It made you a better listener. I was really struck by that, yeah. And then you talk about how your stepdaughter wanted to bring a pool inside the house, like a little mini pool, and your stepson brought a reptile into his room. How did it make you feel to have that disorder? It must have been an adjustment.
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C
It was really hard. And, you know, of my wife, Courtney, were here with me, she would be laughing in the background. It was. It was hard, I have to admit. I mean, I'm a pretty, you know, buttoned up, kind of Virgo kind of guy. And that was that. The chaos of that was pretty hard to manage initially, you know, mentally. But, you know, one has to be. One has to be able to pivot in life, I think, and grow.
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B
Yeah, I. I feel the same way about being married and having kids and dealing with breakage and, you know, we have three dogs now, all that stuff. I do think it makes you a more tolerant, understanding person.
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C
It truly does. It truly is. And I think so. There was, you know, that was something that I think helped me to be a better husband and parent. But then I also think it helped me to be a better architect because I learned more firsthand rather than academically about the messiness of life and about how you have, yes, you can design these picture perfect worlds for your clients, but then life happens. And so the houses have to be able to bend and tolerate that and thrive, actually, in that.
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B
So was there anything specifically that you can point to that you started to think about differently in terms of designing houses once you had your own family.
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C
I think I just had greater insight into the ways that rooms that are family oriented, their uses will evolve and change over time. Let's say the family room, right. That the way going to use it when you have toddlers or little ones is going to be different than when you have teenagers. And that you're actually going to be grateful that you have another room when you have teenagers so that you can, you and your spouse can go escape from that and let. They're gonna, that they're gonna take over the space. They're gonna, you know, if their boys are gonna be big and they're gonna use up a lot of that, you have to have big refrigerators for boys. You know, just stuff that's. Obviously any parent would be like, well, of course already and you know, and I of course knew it to some degree academically. But you, you know, there's nothing like experience.
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B
So I just want to remind or mention the name of the book because I didn't that. So it's called Home at Last Enduring Design for the New American House. Right. And this is the third of a trilogy.
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C
Yes. I mean trilogy sounds so pretentious, but I guess it's the third in a series of three. And I think, yes, I hope that there'll be more, but they won't. I think they'll be different because my practice, it was a certain way over 20 years with me at the head of it as the design partner. And now I have two new design partners with me. And so I hope that we'll, we'll write something, you know, new together that'll be different, that will reflect the new way that we are as a company. You know, this kind of wraps up 20 years of working on my own with an amazing team of people, but me having the ultimate say so. And now we're embarking on something a little different, but you know, a continuum but with leadership besides me in the mix.
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B
So your, your partners, do they have. I mean obviously you must have all share core, core values. But are there certain things that make each of you different?
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C
I'm sure that there are. I think that. But just to start with the commonalities, my partners are Amy and Kevin Busilato. And Amy was my first employee 20 some odd years ago and Kevin, her husband, came shortly thereafter to the firm. And so we were collectively with some others involved in kind of the. Creating the core of our company and our first projects and our culture. And so it's really wonderful to have them back here with all of us working together because of that shared history and their sort of innate understanding and value for understanding of. And value for the culture of our company, which I think is so important in any company, as I'm sure you would agree. You know, in your team, the culture of the team that you've fostered is so vital to success. And then there's the design approach, which I think is very similar, but they're younger, so they have hopefully new ideas, different ways of doing things, and that I think will be really interesting. And also they're teachers or they've had. So when they left me, they went to South Bend, Indiana to teach at the University of Notre Dame in their architecture program, which is one of the great classical architecture programs in the country and one of the only ones. And so they're teachers at heart. And that having a learning environment in our office is something that's always been important. But it's great to have people who actually teaching as part of who they are in the firm. So that's something that I don't really have. So. So I'm really excited about. Even though, you know, I hopefully in day to day practice, you're always teaching the people that you work with. You're sharing the knowledge that you have. But it's great to have somebody else who values that and keep that going.
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B
Yeah, well, I was struck by that in the documentary, you know, just the, the dialogue that you and the people in your office have together. And it really felt like a very team oriented, cool place to work.
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C
I mean, I think that makes it an interesting place to work if everybody can bring something to the table in the process. And, and frankly, the work is better because, you know, it can't all emanate from one person. I mean, I suppose it can, but it's not going to be as interesting or as informed, I think, as if you work with an amazing team of people.
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B
Right. I find that on the magazine too. You know, everybody brings a different viewpoint and you wind up with this amazing amalgam of all these wonderful ideas and it's so much better and so much richer in the end.
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C
Yeah, that was the word I was going to use. It's just a richer product in the end. Yeah.
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B
So how many people in your office do you have now?
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C
I think it's around 45. I don't know.
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B
Oh my goodness.
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C
Somewhere around there.
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B
So that's quite a bit bigger than a few years ago, right?
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C
Yeah, yeah. And we have A, we have a little office in South Bend, Indiana, and then we have a big office here in New York. So between the two, it's 45 plus. I think.
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B
Wow, that's impressive. What comes with that, though, is a lot of managing. So do you have to manage the office or do you have an office manager?
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C
I think, well, I have, for one thing, I have an amazing fourth partner or third partner. There's four partners total. Lou Taylor, who's been a partner with me here in New York for a number of years, and he manages really the operations and the financial side of the equation. And, boy, is that a wonderful thing for an architect to have because, frankly, we don't know very much about running businesses. Business side of it. So Lude manages that. And then Amy and Kevin are really day to day on operations and project oversight. And I tend to focus on design and, you know, and working with clients. But. Yeah, but they're much more hands on.
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B
Yeah. So it allows you to do what you really like, probably. And. Yeah. What you're most excited about.
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A
We're going to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers, and trims. Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. They've recently launched a beautiful new collection of fabrics with interior designer Mark D. Sykes. So head to Schumacher.com to check it out.
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B
All right, so let's just go back to the book for a second. So you have eight projects in the book. Each one is more beautiful than the next, but there were two that completely blew my mind, and the one that blew my mind the most was that boathouse.
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C
Yes.
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B
So what an extraordinary project. And I have so many questions about it.
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C
All right, fire away.
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B
Everyone has to get the book to see the photographs, but maybe you can just describe it, because you'll describe it better than I will.
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C
It was a project that some clients of mine for whom we'd already done some work. It was in the same town on the coast of Maine where they had a house. And they said that, you know, do you want to go see this building that's for sale on the harbor? It's really cool. You'll be, You'll. You'll love it. And so they took me over to see this. This enormous long building that stretched from the street down into the. Which had been built as a boathouse in 1904 for 105 foot steam yacht to be pulled into the building in the winter months, entirely pulled into the building, which was kind of extraordinary. So the scale of the building was breathtaking, even though when we went to see it, it was a complete ruin or virtually a ruin. And they said, wouldn't it be fun to restore this? And I thought, oh my God, it's completely terrifying to think that we would have, you know, that we could somehow restore this. It was landmarked by the state of Maine, which meant that in restoring the outside, we had to put it back exactly the way it was in 1904, which was. It was pretty simple shingle clad building, but with a sloping roof because it sloped all the way down into the harbor. And then we made it so that this couple had a smaller boat than the enormous steam yacht that had originally been in that building. And so about half the building we put, we made with a boat basin that. With water coming into the. The building where you could bring your boat in. And then the other half, the question was, well, what do we do with that? And there was this enormous volume of space. And we said, well, maybe we'll make it kind of like a entertaining space, like a nautical party barn and then a guest cottage kind of up at the top where there had been the original kind of offices associated with the original boat. And so that's kind of what we did, to say it in the simplest terms, but hopefully something interesting.
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B
Oh my God, it was so interesting. It is so interesting. So when you look at. When you're in a live in one of the big living areas, there's a huge glass wall, right, that looks into the boat, like in the r. Into the. Is it a river or the ocean or.
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C
It's the. It's the harbor. So it's the ocean. I mean, it's the harbor. Yeah. So.
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B
Oh my God. So from an engineering perspective, how does that even work? Like, how do you. How does the water not come into the house? And what happens when the water level rises? And I mean, I'm so.
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C
Well, it was a technical challenge to say the least. And the water does come into the building, but hopefully never into the dry living spaces that this, that enormous steel and glass wall that divides the two spaces can take water. The sills are raised up off the floor so you step over them to get in. And it was technically quite challenging, but exciting. I mean, I think in my, you know, sort of at my age, at this state in the game, that's kind of what I look for is projects that are really Interesting and challenging and not what you've done before. And I'm not that I don't. I mean, so this was definitely not something I've done before, and I probably will never do something like it again. It's so extraordinary, but fun. And then. And then how to make. What would the inside look like? And we. We restored the interior to feel very much as it had been. We use. Reuse the old wood. We. Any new wood that we put in was actually reclaimed old wood so that it had the spirit of the original building. And then we wanted it to feel kind of like a cabinet of curiosities for this. For this couple's life, their travels and the things they collected and their books. And so it was felt personal in some way, you know.
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B
Well, it's a pretty cool project. Congratulations. Well, then you did the Japanese yoga studio, which I was amazed by. I don't. I'm not an expert in Japanese architecture, but it looks. Well, it looks like you were. Yeah, it seemed like it was all those beautiful joints, those Japanese joints. And how did that come about?
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C
Well, so we were doing this little kind of guest compound for these clients in Maine, and sort of midway through the project, we'd already. You know, we were. I think we were even under construction, and they. They went on a trip to Japan for three weeks and came back and they said it was the most incredible trip. It was incredible. You've been to Japan, right, Gil? And I said, oh, actually, I never have. And they said, well, they were completely appalled. And they said, how is it that you're even allowed to be an architect if you haven't been to Japan? That's insane. And they said, well, we want something Japanese in this project somehow. And you and the wonderful landscape designers, Stephen and Tanya Moore, they said, figure something out, but we want some memory of our trip to Japan. And so Stephen did this wonderful cascade water feature that kind of cascaded down the side of the hill. And. And I thought, well, we have this building that was going to be a gym. Maybe we can do something more interesting with that. And so I went on a trip to Japan and to Kyoto and did a little research and realized that I needed to kind of up my knowledge on Japanese tea houses and such, and came back and we did this design, and we had all the tatami mats. It has floors of tatami mats which we had made in Japan. And of course, anyone who knows the Japanese people, the sense of precision, they fit perfectly. They arrived and they went in, and it's kind of a little puzzle that they all fit together and they. And. And also a tribute to the builder, who's an amazing builder, that everything fit perfectly. And we used old reclaimed or antique heart pine for the wood. And. And the walls have either above the paneling, plaster or linen. And it's sort of. Kind of a wonderfully serene space, I think. And they use it every day for yoga. It's amazing.
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B
The other project that I love that you talk about in the documentary, Design in Mind, Unlocking the mysteries of Place, but it's the house that sort of feels like an English country house and how you situated it on the land and how important where a house is placed is to you. I thought there was such a beautiful relationship between the house and the land and how you carved areas out around the house. It was really brilliant.
- [19:51]
C
Yeah. I think that house can show. Shows really well how important the synergy can be between an architect and an interior. Sorry, a landscape designer. And really that the success of each depends on the other. And together they make something really magical. It was a hilly site that rose up quite high, and you would have the spectacular view at the high part of the property. But Debbie Nevins helped us realize that you could never build up there. And so she moved the site down lower on the land, but nevertheless in a sloping section of the site and really nestled the building in. And then we made this kind of a collection of spaces that were made between building and landscape and hedges and stone walls. And it's a pretty wonderful place because there's all these different rooms that are made outside with landscape. So it's one of. It's a project I really love for the way that. The synergy between landscape and architecture.
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B
Yeah. It's really special. And there are those stone walls. Remind me what they're called that they use. Yeah. And how are they. Like, what's the purpose of those walls?
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C
So English country houses had them often because there would be, you know, pasture land just beyond the house, and sometimes there would be a deer park or there would be sheep or something, and you. Or horses. And you didn't want them wandering right up onto the lawn in front of the house. So they would make a kind of plateau for the house. And then the wall. The land would kind of drop away and with a kind of retaining wall. And so from the downhill side, the sheep would see a wall, basically. And from the uphill side, it just seemed like the lawn continued into the meadow. So it's almost like an infinity pool for lawn.
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B
And Thomas Jane decorated that house. I ask you yeah, it's beautiful. I know that you work with Red Kai High a lot. Yes, with Thomas. You also do your own decoration sometimes for houses. So when you're working with a designer, how does that process work?
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C
We do some decorating, but it's very few projects among all the projects we do, because I actually really enjoy that collaborative process. And so how does it work? I think it has to start at the very beginning. You really want the decorator to be on board at the very beginning because you. You both are going to have ideas and they need to gel together and you're working towards one goal. I found that when the decorator came in later, they always get their way. So it's just much better that you're all on there together working from the beginning. And so, you know, sometimes there'll be some architectural ideas that usually we start with the plan and then they kind of troubleshoot it and say, you know, well, where are we going to put the bed in that room? Does it, you know, or I have this idea that the garden room is going to have lattice on the walls or triage or something, you know, so you go back and forth and. And you refine it as you go. And I love that process. I think it's really interesting. And hopefully what you end up with is something that on your own, each one of us wouldn't have come up with whatever the final thing was, but somehow together we do something that is more than the sum of the parts.
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B
Well, lucky designers to get to work with you. I'm sure they must be so thrilled when they find out that you're the architect.
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C
I think we try to play well with others.
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B
I'm sure you do. So tell me a little bit about how the documentary came about.
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C
Oh, well, that's entirely. Credit goes to Peter Leiden at the Institute of Classical Architecture and Art. He had seen a talk that I gave and he said, we should make a movie about this. And I said, well, I'm not really a video guy. I don't know any, you know, it's not my natural habitat. And he said, don't worry, we have great guys who do this. And so Peter. It was really Peter's brainchild. And as part of the series that the Institute has done, with architects and designers talking about their process and walking you through some of their projects. And so that's what we did. And it was really. The credit goes to Peter and Surrender Pictures, who made the film, who were amazing. And I just spoke and showed up and had some projects to show, and they really made it into something that I think was. You could understand the process, hopefully of design a little bit from it.
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B
I think so. And you were a natural. You looked very comfortable in front of the camera. In the documentary. There's a part where, you know, you have a huge library, a huge design library. And you're looking, you talk about looking through history and how nobody does it alone and you know, the ideas are, you know, come from so many different places and that of course, you put your own personal spin on it, but that there's a lot of study that goes into it.
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C
Yeah.
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B
So I wanted to ask you a little bit about some of the houses, you know, the great historic houses that have resonated with you.
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C
Ah, I've gotten a lot of inspiration from English country houses and the way they interact with the landscape and you know, both, both the sort of high style classical ones and the more vernacular ones that are earlier. So I love that. And then, and then I looked a lot to the American classicists who did houses. David Adler, Charles Platt, to name just two, of course Lutyens in England, who I think influenced a lot of American practitioners as well. I mean, there's endless number of them. Bottomley in America, who did a lot in Virginia, in California, George Washington Smith, who was an amazing residential architect. We just, I just spend a lot of time looking at the way they did houses and the way that they made them feel kind of settled into the landscapes that they worked in. And that's something that we really try to do. And I think in all of them there's, there's the sense of, there's perfection, but there's also a little bit of imperfection. And I think that is the key when you're looking back to not get too hung up on the perfection of the, of the historic model. Because, you know, like life, like the, like my introduction, life is messy. And most of the time these houses reflected some of that messiness. It wasn't always perfect. And I think that's where you get the charm in a house. If it's all perfect, it's a museum. It doesn't feel like home. And so having a little bit of that, the wonkiness, I think is something that makes a house feel more human and more relatable and cozier.
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B
But that's a real gift. To be able to accomplish, accomplish that perfection, I think in a way is easier. You have to have like a certain intuition or something, you know, that that doesn't just come naturally, I don't think.
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C
Yeah. And you read that then that intuition, you have to rely on it. And it's a fine line. You can blow it and go too far and it's corny. And so it's trying to always thread that needle and find that line between charm and corniness.
- [27:15]
B
And then the places that you grew up in, I know for sure had a big effect on your architecture and what you do. And I remember when I was at Veranda, we did your grandmother's, we did that piece on your grandmother's house. And I didn't realize that you had a stint in California. That looked pretty cool, that house.
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C
Yes. Yeah, that was wacky. Talk about wonky. That was, that had a big. It was right on the beach south of Santa Barbara. And the living room window was actually a glass garage door that rolled up onto the ceiling inside the room. You know, in a way that only a California house can do. Right. You know, that you could just open the whole wall of a house. But that, that has really insinuated itself into our work in a variety of ways. Just making walls of houses that can, the doors can pocket into the walls and you can open it up and you can turn it into more of an open air pavilion. When the weather permits you to do.
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B
That to our listeners, make sure you pick up Gil's book again. It's called Home at Last, Enduring Design for the New American House. And you should not just look at the pictures, you should read it because it's really special. So, Gil, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
- [28:26]
C
Thank you. Dara.
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A
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.