← Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin
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- [00:01]
Pastor Joby Martin
Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.
- [00:17]
Pastor Matt Carter
All right.
- [00:17]
Host/Interviewer
Welcome back to Deepen. Hope everybody had a happy 4th of July. This is where we are. Welcome, Pastor Matt Carter.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Good to be here, man. As always, we are going to be
- [00:29]
Host/Interviewer
diving into a large chunk of Matth here, and, man, we're going to see, just like we have all year, that there's a lot of topics that it brings up, but also there's this golden thread that weaves through it, namely the kingdom of heaven, you know, like you've told us, Pastor Joby. So why don't we start off with this? Because it starts off with paying a tax, the two drachma tax. So there's maybe a little bit of a historical context we can get into about what that is. So you want to explain a little bit of what. What that. Temple taxes.
- [00:59]
Pastor Matt Carter
Yeah. I mean, and you're right, you know, one. Just for. For some background, the way that we structure this is our lead pastor. Pastor Job Martin sits down with the word, just digs into it, and then get some wise counsel on how to lay it out. And, and. And the way that we lay it out is try to. Try to pick a theme that we feel like runs through the whole thing. And. And Pastor Joby said something just a minute ago, which I hope he repeats it. But really the theme that we're going to see in this text is that, is that you've got people that feel like that they can do things. They can act in a certain way and kind of put a lasso around God's neck and force him to do what they want him to do. And yet the complete opposite is what Jesus is teaching is that God is God, we are his children, and we come to him in humility. And so you see this thread throughout it of us approaching God in humility, honoring him, putting him first, receiving his will for our lives, realizing he's coming after us, not we're coming after him. And it starts with this really interesting subject on the temple tax. Jesus and disciples had just come into Galilee, and Pharisees roll up on Jesus and they do what they always are trying to do. They're trying to trip him up. They come up to Peter, you know, and they're like, hey, is your. Is your boy Jesus going to pay the temple tax? And a little bit of background on that, the temple tax was two drachmas, which is the equivalent of one shekel. And that. That'll come into. Come into play in a little while. But the idea is, is that every male, every head of the household had to pay two drachmas a temple tax. It was kind of almost kind of like a tithe.
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Pastor Reagan
Almost.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Almost. It was just what. How the. The priest and all, you know, got paid and that sort of thing. And so they came to Jesus saying, hey, are. Are you going to pay this temple tax? And how he responds is pretty fascinating. And so that's how it gets started.
- [02:58]
Host/Interviewer
Do you remember, Pastor Jo, if there's anything about Roman occupation and with this tax, because it was something like, if I. They were allowed to do this as a bit of a skirt around the Roman tax, if they said a certain thing, know, if you.
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Pastor Reagan
Yeah, the Romans didn't care what you believed as long as you just kind of stayed to yourself and didn't cause a big ruckus. That's it. So they made the Roman Empire made concessions to folks that, hey, worship your own God, do whatever you think you. You need to do. We're wrong. We're the greatest things ever happened. We think what you're doing is just an exercise in futility, but as long as y' all don't cause an uproar down there, then you can do what you want.
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Host/Interviewer
Right?
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Pastor Reagan
It's that kind of thing. Rome was getting theirs.
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Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
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Pastor Reagan
And Matthew knew it better than anybody. The, the. The thread, like you said, that's going to tie this thing together. I don't know what. There's something in the human heart, man, that the more you go to church, the more religious you become, the more you begin to, like, identify yourself as a keeper of the rule, and you're better than the people that you don't perceive or keeping the rules that you think are the most important. And so, I mean, I know I bust on the hoas all the time, but it is that, bro. I mean, all of a sudden you think my yard belongs to you because you are on the hoa. And now you think it's your business to walk around with a clipboard and point out what everybody's doing wrong.
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Pastor Matt Carter
That was one. That was one. If you want to talk about hoas for a second before we get spiritual, that was one of the biggest aha moments of my adult life, bro. You know how you turn 22, 23, and you become an adult and you have to do stuff like pay taxes and go to work and all that?
- [04:41]
Pastor Reagan
Stuff.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Well, man, my wife and I scraped a bunch of money together. We bought our first house back in the year 2000. And, man, I'm like, I own a house.
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Pastor Reagan
Yep.
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Pastor Matt Carter
And then I learned two things. Number one, I don't own the house. The bank owns a house. Number two is that I got fined because my trash cans weren't in the right place and they were gonna, like, they could. I don't think it put like a lane against my house or whatever. I'm like, this is America, for crying out loud. Yeah, this ain't Russia. Anyway, let's talk about the Bible.
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Pastor Reagan
But it is that, though. It's that same sort of like, I mean, bro, I don't know. My algorithm shows me like, HOA's gone wrong. And it's people losing their ever loving mind on homeowners because they think they have power because they are the rule keepers and you are not keeping the rules. And so, bro, this is what begins to happen with religious people in. In every situation, you know, and so with Jesus in this passage, going to talk about. We talk about the temple tax. We'll do a deep dive on that. Carter, you got some incredible insight there. Jesus gives this illustration of greatness. Cuz again, the Pharisees walking around with their clipboards go, we're the great ones. Look how many boxes that we have checked. And Jesus, like, you completely missed this. See this little kid? In the Kingdom of God, greatness is this childlike faith with this utter dependence on God. He talks about temptation and then he also reorients us to be like, you're celebrating the wrong things. You're celebrating how good you are. And what the kingdom of God heaven celebrates is when a lost sheep gets found. Like, you're not even.
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Host/Interviewer
Yeah, that's good.
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Pastor Reagan
Like, you got your merit badge. I got nothing against the Boy Scouts, but you think your merit badge is the highest form of God's Attaboy. And it's not at all, bro. The highest form of God's celebration is when you put your yes on the table. When you're part of the rescue team and you allow yourself to be used by God to go rescue one of these lost sheep, you're celebrating the wrong things.
- [06:43]
Pastor Matt Carter
It's a. One of the things that you. That I. I learned when I started really preaching the Bible, gosh, back in the mid-90s, is how often God talks about his own glory. I mean, if you want to get your mind blown, do a Bible study on how many times God says he does something for his own glory and you really get the sense that the Pharisees over and over and over again are trying to get glory for themselves. They would have never admitted it. They would have cloaked it in religion, but they are trying to get glory for themselves. And the whole theme that even runs through the cross is God glorifying himself, Jesus glorifying the Father, the Holy Spirit glorifying the Son. And then you got the Pharisees all throughout the New Testament saying, glorify me. And so he's speaking against that. You know, I. Let me. I'll tell you something I think sets this up. Well, Pastor, you ever. You remember a guy named Pastor John Bassano? Does that ring a bell? Yeah, he was the pastor of Houston's First Baptist Church back in, gosh, the 70s and 80s. He would be. He'd be like the J.D. greer, you know, of, of, of back in the day. He was a. He was a big deal in the Southern Baptist Convention. And the dude could just slap, bring it. He could preach. And I think. I think Houston's first grew to 7 or 8,000. It was a big church. But anyway, man, when I was going through seminary in my 20s, he got to be one of my. My professors, okay. And, dude, he was old. He was like 75 years old at the time, and he was just overweight. That's before pastors worked out. And. And my man would just sit back. Back on the desk and his stomach was round. My. Like, my old man, he would sit there and he would just hold his belly like that and teach while he was holding his belly. I'm like, I want to be like that when I'm. That's hype. But he said something. You know how you. You hear some old men say something hype and it just sticks with you. He said something one time. It's the only thing I remember him saying. But it's amazing. He said. He said, man, it was a room full of pastors. He says, when it comes to the kingdom of God, if you ever see man exalting himself over Christ, if you listen carefully, you can hear the hiss of the serpent. And I think that's the center of this theme is Jesus is speaking against and fighting against and teaching against man exalting himself over the Lord.
- [09:22]
Host/Interviewer
We're. And I don't know where the chronology is here. I mean, it's getting towards the back half of Matthew. And it makes me wonder, are the Pharisees changing their tactic a bit? Because you notice who they talk to. Like, instead of directly confronting Jesus, they say to Peter hey, does your master pay this tax? Well, obviously, probably. Jesus is not far away. And I love his answer. He says, what do you think, Simon? Do? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others? Yeah. So that kingdom has been a huge thing this year. So why would he. He, like, zooms out, like, what's this about? Why would he bring up the kingship and sonship idea?
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Pastor Reagan
Carter, go ahead. You were.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Yeah, well, first of all, I think it's funny. Peter answers the question, but he don't know, you know, he's like. They're like, hey, is your boy Jesus? Is he paying the temple tax? And Peter's like, yeah, course he pays the temple tax. And he goes, jesus, are we paying temple tax? Which is exactly what I would have done. I love Peter. I relate. But I mean, let's just jump in.
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Host/Interviewer
Look at.
- [10:24]
Pastor Matt Carter
Look at 17. Gosh. Starting verse 24. He says, when they came to Compernum, the collectors of the two drachma tax, and that's the temple tax, went up to Peter. So they go up to Peter and said, does your teacher not pay the tax? Peter said, yes. And when he came to the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, what do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll? From their tax from their sons or from others? And when he said, from others, Jesus said to him, then the sons are free. So that's one of those verses in the Bible. You're like, what Jesus in the world are you talking about? But Jesus makes an interesting statement. He said, hey, look, do the sons of kings, do they have to pay the tax?
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Host/Interviewer
Right?
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Pastor Matt Carter
And like, no, no, sons of kings don't have to pay. They collect tax from everybody else. If you're a son of the king, right, you're free man. You don't have to pay a tax. And so basically, what Jesus is doing here is something pretty fascinating. Jesus is the son of the king. He's making a point here that the earth is the Lord's and all that it contains. God is the creator of heaven and earth. He made the. He made the metal that the drachmas were made of. He's God, and he's the son of the king. And he's like, I do not have to pay this. I'm not required. I'm part of the family. I'm. I'm reigning in the kingdom of God. And yet he chooses to. Which, you know, when I was first studying this, Pastor Joby, I found that fascinating. I mean, you. In my opinion, are one of the best teachers on generosity that I've ever heard. You've studied it in depth. And so here you have the creator of money, who is the son of the king, saying, go pay it. It's almost like he humbles himself before a government that he had authority over.
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Pastor Reagan
Yeah. And the temple is his father's house.
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Pastor Matt Carter
That's right.
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Pastor Reagan
And so. But he's going to do it so as to not give offense.
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Host/Interviewer
And.
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Pastor Reagan
And he's going to do it in a miraculous way. Listen, man, I have had. Not really 1122, but, you know, there. There are folks out there right now that spend an inordinate amount of time trying to tell followers of Jesus why their money is theirs and they don't have to tithe anymore. Because. And it's amazing the hermeneutical gymnastics that folks will go through to try to convince people. They're asking the wrong questions, man. To try to convince people. No, no, no. What you have is yours, and you should be able to do with it what you want to do with it. And so you don't have to tie the ties. And Old Testament thing. And, you know, all this, the tie. There's a Levitical law, and it's actually 23, 23 and a half. And then, you know, all these kind of things. And what they're doing. They're doing the same thing that I see in this total. Like they're walking around with a clipboard going, what's the bare minimum that I can get away with and still calm and still go to heaven. Yeah, dude, Tithing or not tithing is not going to get you in or keep you out of heaven. But if you say that Jesus is your Lord and you're honestly trying to convince yourself of why you should not bring your first and best to the local church of which Jesus is the head of the real qu. You really should dig in there because it kind of sounds like money is your Lord. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. But. And if you want to spend all of your time pointing out what all the other churches are doing wrong, okay, then find one that you think is faithful to your understanding of the scripture and then be radically generous to God. You can't actually be generous to God, but because you know it's all his. So how do you. How can you be generous with something that's not yours? But. But you. You bring. You be faithful, a faithful steward of what God has given you. This is a perfect example of the opposite of that. It aligns exactly with what folks today because here's what it comes down to. It comes down to justification. Are you justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and you lean wholly and completely on it? Or are you constantly trying to justify yourself before God based on your activity, what you have to do and don't have to do, and why you've justified in your own mind why it's okay. And then you use God's word to try to justify you instead of submitting yourself to the word of God as a justified believer and saying, well, the moment I called him my Lord, I said, you're the boss of me. I'm not the boss of me. And so I'm going to do what you say. And submission isn't submission until you don't like it. When you're, when you're Lord and Master, it's not submissive if you do what you like and that just happens to align with what he wants to do. It's just convenient. It's submission when he tells you to do something and you don't understand it, you don't like it, and it's just. And you have enough sense to realize, well, the. Probably the only reason I don't like this is because of my own immaturity. Like, I don't want to forgive the way you said forgive, but I'm going to trust your ways are better than my ways. And I said, I'm going to believe you for my salvation. I ought to believe you in the way I live my life. So I'm going to do it even though I don't like it.
- [15:47]
Pastor Matt Carter
You know, I. This hadn't happened very often, but there's been a couple times with my sons and I say a couple, like a couple over the years where I'll ask them to do something that they either don't understand or they don't want to do right now. This didn't happen really when they were super young, but it happened a couple times. They were teenagers. And I went, man, that's impressive, first of all. But I remember Sammy one time when I was thinking about when my wife and I were praying about going to Sagemont, the second church pastor Austin's home for 18 years, and then. And then took a, a church revitalization in Houston, and we were seeking the Lord on it, and we were going to have to move my youngest son his freshman year in high school. And we had made the decision
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Pastor Reagan
we
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Pastor Matt Carter
weren't going to do it unless the Lord really spoke to him about it. And we came to him and presented to him and I'll never forget what he said, Pastor Joby. He said, dad, I. I don't really understand it. I'm not really sure I want to. But if God is calling you to it, and. And this is what the Lord wants for us, I'll do it, you know, and the whole thing is, dad, I trust you, is what he was saying. And so what Pastor Joby's talking about is, man, there's going to be things that the Lord calls us to do. And I want to talk about this from two angles. There's going to be things that the Lord calls us to do that are contrary to what we would want or desire for ourselves. Submission means you trust your father and you bow the knee in those situations and do it, because maybe you don't understand it, but that's what he wants. Money's a classic example. But I want to. I want to talk about the other side of the coin of that. Pastor Joby. When I. When the gospel messed me up, you know, when. When it really hit my heart, what the gospel truly means, that I was dead in my trespasses and my sins. When. When I was a lost sheep that it's about to talk about, and he came after me. I wasn't pursuing him. I was running from him. And he found me and he brought me back, put me on his. On his shoulder, brought me back home. Like when it hit. When it hits you that you are in the pig pen of your sin, which, you know, it talks about in. In Luke and, And. And. And the father runs to you and embraces you and calls you a son and gives you everything he has, man, when that hits you, when it hit me, I'm like, what else could I do? Money. Money. When the gospel really messed my heart up is when money and giving the kingdom stop being an issue for me. And so, man, for anybody that's. That's out there listening, if you struggle to give to the kingdom, man, I don't. I don't want to shame anybody, because I get it. I've been there. But I would. I would challenge them to. To look at your heart and really see, man. Has the gospel transformed me? Because for folks that I know that are in love with the Lord and been transformed by the gospel, it's. It's a joy in order to do it.
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Pastor Reagan
Yeah.
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Host/Interviewer
If I.
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Pastor Reagan
When I talk to people that are trying to hold on or. Or it. It. It might not be money, it might be they're trying to justify some other thing that the Bible said don't do, but they Think in their own position. They're unique, so it's okay for them. I'll often just go like, all right, so what happened to you, man? Something happened where trust was destroyed. And you thought that if you just grab onto it and you are in control that somehow this thing's going to go better. I've shared this before, but I was having a. I was yelling at JP one time he was in high school, and I was losing it, man, I'm so mad. And I was like, dude, do you. Do you have any idea how good you have it, man?
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Host/Interviewer
You got it so good.
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Pastor Reagan
I was like, dude, do you have a mom and dad that love you and everything we tell you to do is for you and if you would just do what we say, your whole life would be better. And I felt like God said, tell him again, dad, tell him again. And I was like, you got a dad that loves you, and if you just did. Oh, wait a minute. I don't think we're talking. How am I so dumb? How am I so dumb? Because I have a dad that loves me. I got it so good. And everything that he tells me to do is for his glory, but it's also for my joy. And every time I do it my own way, it goes bad, man.
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Pastor Matt Carter
But our kids do kind of have it better than we do. I mean, I'm just being honest anyway. You know, I tell you, there's a fascinating part of this, this verse that, that when I was studying for this, I looked into, you know, one of the things I'm. I'm getting a lot of joy from in my old age is. And I've. I guess I always have, but is reliving the truth that the Bible is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword. I keep waiting for there to be something wrong in it or for me to disagree with it, or for there to be something that contradicts life. And man, the exact opposite has happened. I'm 52 years old and the longer I study it, the more I'm like, my gosh, this is true, every word of it. But bro, there's something really cool in it. Was studying this. And look at, look at, at 17 and praise God for large font Bibles here, but look at 17. I guess let's start in 25. And so Peter says, yes, that, yeah, he pays the tax. And he said when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, what do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of earth take toll or tax from their sons or Mothers. And when he said from others, Jesus said to him, but the sons are free. In other words, sons of the king don't have to pay. He goes, however, not to give offense to them. In other words, I'm going to humble myself before the authority in this arena. Watch what he says. He says, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take it and give it to them for me and for yourself. And you're like, what in the world is Jesus doing here, man? Because he very easily could have said, yeah, let's humble ourselves before the authorities. That's what God asked us to do, even though we don't have, you know, I don't have to because I'm the son of the king. So go talk to Judas. He's got the money, prayers, and go give him two shekels. It's not what he does. He says, peter, here's what I want you to do. First of all, even though I don't have to pay, we're going to do it. He says, I want you to go to Galilee. Which, by the way, they were in Galilee. They were close to the water. You've been there before, Pastor Jovi?
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Pastor Reagan
I have, many times.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Pretty cool. And he sends him back to the place where Peter first met Jesus and just says, I want you to go fishing. Which turns out Peter knows a few things about. And he says, I want you to catch a fish. And the very first fish you catch open its mouth. And he says in it is going to be a shekel. You know, when you're reading the Bible, one of the things that you're looking for is, especially when you're reading the Life of Jesus. Jesus never does anything that doesn't have purpose. He's always trying to teach something through his actions and through his words. And so when you're reading the Bible there, you know, and as I was reading, I'm like, okay, Jesus, what are you trying to teach Peter by sending him back to the lake to do what Peter did at first, to catch a fish and to provide for the money there. And, and. And this is what I found out. So, interestingly, couple things. Number one is Jesus provides a shekel. Which I looked it up, and at that time, in Jesus time, a shekel was twice the amount of the temple tax. So a shekel was four drachmas. I thought, that's fascinating. And then it kind of hit me that he literally sends Peter back to the very place and The. And the thing that Peter used to do in his old life and the way that Peter used to provide for himself, the way that Peter used to come up with his own money, the way that Peter used to provide for his family and for his. His neighborhood and all that stuff was fishing. He goes, go back, do what you used to do. Except this time, I'm gonna provide for you, and I'm gonna give you more than your wildest imagination. So, man, I'd love to. I'll give you twice what you think you were gonna get. I think Jesus is teaching. If you'll just trust me, if you'll put God first in your life, you're gonna realize a couple things. One, I'm gonna provide everything you ever need, even when you don't think it's right, even when you're scared. The other thing is, when I do provide, it's always gonna be more than you could provide for yourself.
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Pastor Reagan
So, yeah, there's no doubt he teaches it. He comes back to the same theme over and over and over. Anybody that's ever like, well, I think the church talks about money too much. You would have hated the teaching ministry of Jesus. One out of every three things he said was about money. I did the. I. I had the. Our team look up the percentage that I talk about it. I would have to quadruple the amount of times I talk about money in order to just catch up with how much Jesus talks about it. So anybody, too, that's like, well, I love the teachings of Jesus. I often am suspicious that they've actually read them unless they're just ridiculously generous with their finances, because he just talks about it all the time. And so it. It fundamentally, I think this is why he next goes to the. The child thing, you know, because he says, unless you turn and become. Which is another way to say, repent.
- [25:36]
Pastor Matt Carter
Yeah.
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Pastor Reagan
So unless you repent and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven and the fundament. There's a lot of things there, but fundamentally that means is you got to trust your dad, and nothing will expose what you actually trust, like the way you handle money. And ultimately, like, if you go back to Matthew chapter six, this is the illustration that he gives is, hey, man, look at God and the birds and look at God and the flowers. Are. You mean. You mean to tell me that birds and flowers trust God more than you do? Because what you're thinking is, if you could just take hold of all this, then you can guarantee your own security and your own satisfaction. And the problem is is what you're putting your trust in. Money does not have the ability to satisfy you or bring security, but seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And these things, and these things that he's talking about is satisfaction. And security will be given to you because you'll be ultimately satisfied in him. And then the temporary things of this world will just be like gravy, man. It's just extra. Like, praise God, I get to live indoors and eat hot food. I got different clothes I can wear and I get to drive a car and man, that's just extra. But none of that satisfies me. God, you, I'm satisfied in you, so I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me is a verse about finding ultimate satisfaction in him. It's not about scoring touchdowns. And my eternal security is in you and you alone. There's no number on a computer screen that can give me security. And so as a demonstration to my heart, over and over and over, I'm going to bring to God my first and best to remind my heart every. On the first day of every week, I'm going to bring my first and best to the one who is first. And it just reminds my heart that, hey, listen, we are not putting our hope and trust in the temporary things of this world. We're also not putting our hope and trust in our own fleshly desires or our own elevated intellect to think, well, I know better than God, so what I'm going to do, instead of bringing my first and best, here's what I could do. I could take that money and I could invest it. And in that investment, I could make this amount of percentage and then I could. Okay, what are you talking about, man? You're trying to outsmart God. There's. You bring your first and best of God, then you invest from there for the future and then you enjoy all of it.
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Pastor Matt Carter
And I think that's the heart of the. The. The shekel versus the two drachmas.
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Pastor Reagan
Yeah.
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Pastor Matt Carter
Jesus is saying, I'm going to provide more for you than you could ever provide for yourself. And so, man, I think as you look at all of this, Pastor Joby, I think one word just screams off the page for me. It's dependence. I think that's the thing, that's the theme. It's dependence on God. I mean, think about how the Pharisees that live their life by pulling up their bootstraps and following all the rules, which produced self righteousness, which produced, look at me, I did it right. You think about that cat that was in the temple courts going, I tithe mitten deal. I'm awesome. You know? And the other dudes like, I'm a sinner. Lord have mercy on me. Jesus said, that cat that's crying out for mercy, that's one going to heaven. And so what you see here is a dependence. And so think about how crazy it must have been for the Pharisees to hear this.
- [28:57]
Pastor Reagan
Yeah. Because if you get.
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Pastor Matt Carter
You got to be dependent on God.
- [29:00]
Pastor Reagan
If you get down into 18. All right, so he's like, all right, y' all want to do a little object lesson? Who's the greatest? And then he brings him a child who. It's not like children today. We worship children today, right? I mean, straight up there. They were neglected. Most of them didn't get a name until they were older. They could not own anything. They were just. They were like. It was like, get out of the way, kid. And then Jesus brings the kid to him and says, unless you turn and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. All right? The next thing is, but whoever causes one of these little ones that believe in me to sin. Okay, so what's the temptation there? Like, how. What he's saying is, if you try to convince these kids that the way God's going to love them is you hand them your religious clipboard, and then you gotta. They. They think, if I don't obey all the rules, then I'm unacceptable for God. Then he gets into, you got. This is why a lot of times when you teach it, you just teach each little section, and you don't see the flow of the whole thing. And so he goes, all right, so woe to you. Woe to this world when it comes to temptation. Now, temptation is a reality because of the sin in the world, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes. Tie that together with what he just said about the little kids, bro, it'd be better for you to go drown in the ocean than to teach a false gospel, which is, if I obey, then I will be accepted.
- [30:39]
Pastor Matt Carter
So you. Bro, I've never seen that before. And you're. You're right.
- [30:44]
Pastor Reagan
So you're saying that it's all one conversation.
- [30:47]
Pastor Matt Carter
It's one conversation here. And Jesus is essentially talking about when you cause a child to stumble. That's not separate from the previous verse.
- [30:54]
Pastor Reagan
Correct.
- [30:55]
Pastor Matt Carter
And so. And. And so what's he saying? He's saying you gotta be like a child to Enter into the kingdom, right? And so if you cause somebody to not have a childlike faith, but to rest on self righteousness, you might as well jump in a leg and die. Dang, man.
- [31:09]
Host/Interviewer
The Pharisees are obsessed with rightness. And it seems like the disciples are obsessed with greatness. And Jesus is like, no, no, you're doing it wrong. And he says, become like a child. And you know, they don't. They don't have quotation marks like when it says, whoever receives one such child in my name. Because he's not talking about just little kids literally, right? He's talking about the condition of a person who's humbled themselves before Jesus.
- [31:37]
Pastor Reagan
I think it's both. And I mean, part of the brilliance of the way Jesus taught is it could mean, like, I would also say these days, especially with things like we see the release of the Epstein files, and you see Tebow testifying before Congress about trying to get this Hope act passed whereby we could just identify children who have. Who are being sexually exploited. I do think there is a next gear of anger and wrath in the character and nature of God when you do something to hurt little children. The abortionists, on and on and on, okay? And I also think theologically what he is talking about here is the person that is brand new to their faith. If you're trying to tell the person, it doesn't count. You got to grow up first, and then you can be saved. And Jesus like, no, you got to be born again, and then you start to grow up. But if you tell people, you got to be grown, you got to be mature in your activity, then you will be acceptable before God. That is the temptation that Jesus is like, you don't understand the Gospel. And then he's like, so let's talk about. Let's talk about sheep. A lost sheep doesn't get out there and figure out in his own geniusness, you know what? I have made poor decisions. I'm going to come home. No, no, no, no, no. The shepherd goes after the lost sheep, and you're the lost sheep, you dummy. So humble yourself and receive the gospel. And men realize, if you want to make God happy, then you get on the lost sheep hunting team instead of the HOA clipboard box checking team.
- [33:27]
Host/Interviewer
You know what's funny is that the other, the other text where he uses, he goes into what sounds like a repetition of his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount about lust, you know, gouging out, cutting off 100. And when you put it in the context of religious duty, he Says, be as. Think about how ruthless a good Christian is against lust. Yes, very ruthless.
- [33:49]
Pastor Reagan
Yeah.
- [33:50]
Host/Interviewer
And he's saying, be just as ruthless against the clipboard version of religion as you would against lust and sexual temptation.
- [33:57]
Pastor Reagan
100, bro.
- [33:59]
Pastor Matt Carter
That's all. That's, that's fantastic. And so it's interesting because, and I would like yalls opinion on it because I didn't, I didn't study the temptation text super intensely. But you know, he's obviously talking about dependence. Dependence on God for provision, dependence on God for salvation coming like a child later on. He's like, dependence on God to be found and brought back to him. And then, and then he jumps in to this concept of temptation and he tells you to jump in and do something.
- [34:33]
Pastor Reagan
Right.
- [34:33]
Pastor Matt Carter
And so if the temptation comes, you cut your foot off. It almost seems like it's, it's contradictory. You have any thoughts on that and why?
- [34:42]
Pastor Reagan
Well, here, here's back into the context. So there's a group of people all the way back in verse 24 that are trying to bust Jesus over some religious regulation. Yeah. Okay. So woe to the one by whom the temptations come. So what is the temptation that the Pharisees are bringing to the spiritual children?
- [35:06]
Pastor Matt Carter
Self righteousness.
- [35:06]
Pastor Reagan
Self righteous.
- [35:07]
Pastor Matt Carter
Anti gospel.
- [35:08]
Pastor Reagan
So I think what he's saying is I don't care what title they have. I don't care how pointy their hats are and how what, how fancy their
- [35:15]
Pastor Matt Carter
religious, how long their tassels are.
- [35:18]
Pastor Reagan
They are a cancer in this body and you need to cut them out because they are leading people away from me. This is not. No, you protect that man of God because you know nobody touches God's anointed too. When people quote that nobody touches God's anointed, I'm like, that's Saul taking a pee in a cave. Are you Saul? Is that what you're saying? No, no, no, no. It's like David was the good guy in that scenario and it was just his humility that he cut off the robe and he didn't like take Saul out there. Yeah.
- [35:50]
Pastor Matt Carter
And I would say the apostle Paul is God's anointed and God touched him a few times.
- [35:56]
Pastor Reagan
So that's it. So if I'm the lead and founding pastor of this church, okay, so what if I began to teach a works based righteousness? Fire me today, man. Yeah, and fire me today. And if you're at a church where somebody is teaching a false gospel, man, you might not have the ability to fire the person. Then you get your things, get your wife Go get your kids out of the kiddos ministry and don't ever come back. Yeah, because it is. It'd be like you're putting your children in such a danger.
- [36:30]
Pastor Matt Carter
It's a danger of, you know, that Jesus says is if it's found in your life, you'd be better to jump in a lake. I, I would ask, I think something to be really interesting and applicable is for us to talk about how does this show up in modern society? You just bre. Talked about it a little bit. What does it look like for individuals to struggle with this spirit? A lack of dependence. And what does it look like in churches? I'm. I'd love to unpack that for a minute.
- [36:56]
Pastor Reagan
Let me preface it with saying, I think we live in the greatest country. I'm pro America. I think many, many, many of the, the things that the founder, the ingredients that they put into this, the mix and bake this cake is brilliant. But. But they also have some significant shadows. So the brilliance is that we have certain inalienable rights giving to us by our Creator and we should treat every single person as an image bearer of God. Praise God for that. But the great shadow is this hyper individualism that has played itself out in. You can't tell me what to do. I do whatever I want to do because I'm the boss of me. And Jesus is saying, unless you turn from that and humble yourself like a little child, you can do whatever you want to do and it's going to lead you all the way to burning hell. That's exactly where that pathway leads. And our culture is ripe for that.
- [37:54]
Pastor Matt Carter
Yeah,
- [37:56]
Host/Interviewer
one thing, but before you ask that question, what I thought of is that so many of us are inoculated to the danger of morality and religion because it feels like it produces benefits. Like, it's similar to talking about the positive things about American society. Like, yeah, that's good. It's good to live in a just society. It's good to follow the rules. And so I think so many people, especially those who grew up in church like I did, don't see the danger. I mean, he's saying it's dangerous. Cut it off, get it out. If you're, if you're tempted towards justifying yourself through religion, cut it out. So many of us don't see it because it, the lie that's inherent in it is that. Yeah, but it's better than running the streets and absolutely cutting whatever, whatever it is. So you compare, you inherently compare it to something worse and say, well, it couldn't Be that bad. That's why people end up coming to God saying, see, I'm contributing to this King. God's lucky to have me. And so that's what's shocking about so much of what Jesus is saying, is that even you have to repent of your religion. Like you said many times, Reagan and
- [39:01]
Pastor Reagan
I were at Passion this year, and by the time this comes out, I will. I think I will. May have already talked about it. I'm not sure if I'm gonna preach this or not. JP Paluda, who's become a friend and who's preaching saturated this year, he says, all right, this in Passion is, I don't know, 10,000, I don't know how many thousands college kids, a lot, gathered at the Rangers Stadium in Texas.
- [39:27]
Pastor Matt Carter
It's a lot.
- [39:27]
Pastor Reagan
Reagan and I were there, and Baklude is like, all right, scale of 1 to 10, 1 being. I don't think so, and 10 being, yeah, 100. How many of you think you're going to heaven? Who's it, like a 1 to 3? Some hands go up, and that's concerning. But I'm like, well, maybe these people are just being honest, and they don't know if they're saved or not. You know, they. They need to get saved, and they know it. The most terrifying one is when he was like, all right, you're like a 6 to 9, 7 to 9. The majority of the room raise their hands, and then like, who's a 10? Who knows they're going to heaven? It was like, me and Reagan. You know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, no.
- [40:11]
Host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [40:11]
Pastor Reagan
This is the Passion Conference, bro. This is supposed to be. I mean, these are college kids that have decided that with their Christmas break, they're, you know, they're not going to Cancun. They're going to Texas to worship Jesus. And they still aren't sure if they've done the right thing, prayed the right prayer. They're not thinking about their salvation right. At all. Terrifying, you know, and that they don't have an assurance that what Christ did on the cross was sufficient for their salvation if they would just believe they received the right to become a child of God. They are at some point, you know, obviously, I didn't get to walk around and ask all the people, why'd you raise your hand at a 6 to 8? And they're like, well, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know, because you still think that I check all the right boxes.
- [41:05]
Pastor Matt Carter
That is a form to. To raise your hand at a 7 or an 8 is a form of self righteousness, right? It's, it's, it's me saying, I think I've done enough to get to heaven, man. I. Pastor Joby, I don't know if Jesus, when I, you know, when I, when I die and enter into his presence, I don't know if he'll ask that question, like, why should I let you into my kingdom? But I'm going to tell you my answer. He says, matt, why should I let you my. Into my King? I'm going to point at him. I'm going to point at Jesus. I'm going go, you.
- [41:36]
Pastor Reagan
That's it.
- [41:36]
Pastor Matt Carter
Because of you. That's it. Because when I was dead, in my trespasses and in my sins, you made me alive together with Christ. It is by grace that I have been saved. It is not of works that any man should boast. I am wearing your righteousness that you put me. And by faith I received it. And so the idea of somebody say so. Yeah. So if you're asked that question, how sure are you going to heaven? You can raise your hand and say, I'm a 10. Not because, not because you're sure of yourself, it's because you're sure of Jesus.
- [42:12]
Pastor Reagan
Correct. So if this word is true now, if somehow we've been duped on this thing, then we're all screwed. But if this word is true, then I'm 10 out of 10 because I believe on Christ for my salvation. That's the Alistair Bay question. If somebody were to ask you, if you were standing before God, why should I let you in my heaven? If you, if you begin with personal pronouns, you've already gotten it wrong.
- [42:36]
Host/Interviewer
Because.
- [42:37]
Pastor Reagan
No, no, no, no. It's because of you. And then he tells that wonderful story about the thief on the cross making into heaven. And his ultimate answer was just simply this. The man on the middle cross said I could come. That is it, dude. And so that is this. That is everything from taxes to temptation to, to evangelism. Do you trust him?
- [43:01]
Pastor Matt Carter
You know, it's interesting. Let's go to the most famous verse in the Bible, John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. And that whosoever I, I, I still do this in the, in the, in the King, Jimmy. And I don't know why. Everything else I got, I do a regular Bible.
- [43:21]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [43:22]
Pastor Matt Carter
So for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have Eternal life. That word believes doesn't mean intellectual belief. It literally means to trust into him, to put to faith into him. And so literally, the idea is that whoever completely put your trust into Jesus, you're going to heaven. And so what that's what you're doing when you get saved is you're saying, jesus, I am trusting you to let me in and to save me and to make me righteous. And so if you're at a seven, you don't trust Jesus.
- [44:03]
Pastor Reagan
Dude, I. I've used this illustration a long time ago. I'm not a big illustration guy, but I read this thing. I used it a long time ago. There was this Frenchman in. And he had a tightrope stretched across these big waterfalls, and all these people were coming to watch him. And he'd walk across and walk back, and then he'd do all kind of tricks, like carry a tray of wine and a glass across and back. And then he gets a wheelbarrow, and he takes the wheelbarrow across and back. And then he says, how many people believe that I can do it again? And the whole place does and goes. How many of you will get into the wheelbarrow?
- [44:47]
Pastor Joby Martin
Nope.
- [44:47]
Pastor Reagan
That's the difference between believing in and believing that. Yeah, I believe that you can. Am I going to get in the wheelbarrow and say, I can't do it. I need you to carry me across?
- [44:59]
Pastor Matt Carter
You know, man, I've thought about Pastor Joby. I. I've almost died a couple times. You know, I've had cancer twice and heart disease. And so, you know, when you go through that stuff, you. You think about your own death, which don't mean to be morbid, but you just do you come to terms with it. And so I've actually spent some time, you know, thinking about, like, if I was aware that I was passing, like, what would I say to the Lord? And man, I. I think in that moment, that's what I'm going to say to him. You know, if I'm able, I'm just going to say, lord, I just trust into you everything. And, and that's the beauty of it is the scripture is crystal clear that when we trust into him, we will have eternal life. And so, man, anybody out there that's sitting there going, that would. Would have answered that question a few minutes ago as a seven, I want you to know something. If you trust in Jesus for your salvation and you bow the knee to him and ask him to forgive you your sins, you will be saved. And you can be confident.
- [46:02]
Pastor Reagan
And if you Don't. It's actually a lack of humility. This is what he says. Unless you humble yourself like this little child. That just means I say this all the time. The three most dangerous words you can say is I got this. The beginning of salvation is I ain't got this. I need somebody to do for me what I cannot do for myself. This is what Jesus is teaching. And then when you do that, you align yourself with his wills and his. His will and his ways according to his word in this world. And you're like, all right, if I trust you for my salvation, then surely I can trust you with my money. The way I conduct myself with my anxiety and worry, whatever it.
- [46:43]
Host/Interviewer
Have you. Have you ever noticed that the language of religious people is all about maturity? Like somebody who's religious probably stands in line in the lobby and says thank you. I left my last church because it wasn't feat. I wasn't getting anything out of it. So thanks for being so deep, you know, and. Or can we just go on to some more meaty topics? So they really love the maturity passages. And that's very exposing when you think about this childlike faith. Because somebody who would think I can't. Kids are dumb, kids are immature, Kids are foolish, Kids are naive. I can't. I can't be like that. We're supposed to be mature. And so could you. Could you add any wisdom to. Like we're not supposed to. What are we supposed to always be childlike with. And where is Jesus saying humble yourself like a child in order to grow?
- [47:35]
Pastor Reagan
So who is learning more? The child or the PhD graduate? See, the PhD graduate thinks he has learned it.
- [47:45]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [47:45]
Pastor Reagan
And the child knows that he needs to learn so that the part of what we got to do is change and become like this little child and understand we got a long way to go. They still think their few, all their futures ahead of them. You know. And then I think. I think part of the reason Jesus connects these two. We say it here all the time. If you actually want to go deep, help other people discover. That's it, dude. The moment it turns inward like the Pharisees and you get wrapped around this, the axle of what you are doing and what you're not doing versus helping other people know Jesus as their good shepherd. That because nothing will keep you young in your faith. Like get staying very serious about being on mission for God. In particular to finding that one more. You know.
- [48:34]
Pastor Matt Carter
And I, I would say. I would add this, that. Every man of God and I would say woman of God too, that I know that is older and they're finishing. Well, I'm talking about genuinely godly men and women that love Jesus. What I noticed about them, what stands out the most about them? I'm talking about the people that I look at and go, I want to be like them. They weren't growing primarily in their knowledge, even though they did. They were growing in their humility. You know, in other words, every truly amazing man and woman of God I knew that were over seven years old, they. They were deeply humble. And so as you. As you walk with the Lord, if you're not growing in your dependence on him, something's off. I. I'm going blank. I think it was Howard Hendrick. I'm probably getting this wrong. Don't. You don't have to comment. You can just go look it up on the. On the social media thing. But I believe it's Howard Hendrick. It was. I was watching a video. This guy, he was a famous theologian, incredible preacher. He was late in his Life, in his 80s. He was doing one of those things that you and I hate so much, where you have to stand on the stage with six other guys and talk. You know, when you get asked questions. What are those called? Panel discussions. I do not have the spiritual gift of panel discussions. And. But anyway, this was kind of like the last conference he was doing in his career, and he was kind of just, you know, obviously still be a minister, but he was retiring from public speaking. And I don't wish I remember his name. But anyway, they asked him. They said, sir, you've had a long, credible career in the gospel. You've seen thousands of people come to Christ through your ministry. What would you say more than anything defines your ministry, and what would you like to say to us? And he just kind of paused for a second and he said, jesus loves me. This I know. For the Bible tells me so. And some people might say that's. That's not very deep. But the longer you walk with Jesus, the more you realize that is the most profound thing that you could ever hear. Jesus loves me. This I know.
- [51:06]
Host/Interviewer
I love what you said, Pastor Joby, about celebrating what heaven celebrates.
- [51:11]
Pastor Reagan
Yeah, that's the real sign of maturity, not knowledge.
- [51:13]
Host/Interviewer
Right.
- [51:14]
Pastor Reagan
Is an alignment of values.
- [51:18]
Host/Interviewer
Do you think that that comes from the way modern history is unfolded, like with the Enlightenment in the Age of Reason? I mean, we're. Some people would say we're postmodern or past that, but I just think that we live in a world where the way education works, the way mastery of almost anything works is that you know a lot of stuff up here. And so if you. And there's probably certain personalities that gravitate more towards head knowledge as a way of growth in something, but it's not either or.
- [51:53]
Pastor Reagan
I mean we talk about it all the time. A part of the way that we know that Jesus loves us is because the Bible tells us so. And so if we don't know the Bible, you're going to not know what it means for Jesus to, to love you. What Jesus always does though is he leverages that to keep people on mission repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. He's not just saying just, you know what, you just go sit in a field and just receive the warm sunshine of my love. And however you feel, it's not what he's ever doing. The problem is the Pharisees took a good thing which was his law, and they made it a God thing, which is a really bad thing. Then that thing actually becomes the temptation and the hindrance because they twisted it. They, they, they twisted the law of God which is perfect reviving the soul. But for them it became a chain and a yoke and a weight.
- [52:44]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [52:45]
Pastor Reagan
And so yes, you should pursue knowledge of God by knowing the Bible 100%. But even that is a means to an end. Knowing the Bible is not the end in and of itself.
- [52:59]
Host/Interviewer
Right.
- [52:59]
Pastor Reagan
Because if you know the Bible but you don't love God and love people, you're not doing it right. But if you want to love God and love people and you don't know the Bible, you will not have the tools by which to be able to do it rightly.
- [53:11]
Host/Interviewer
There's something to be said about or there's so much, why there's so much to learn from the rabbinical way of discipleship because it was very much model. Walk, walk it out. Somebody, somebody told me this illustration recently about knowledge versus knowledge and they said, imagine you had to have life saving surgery on your heart. Would you rather have the surgeon who aced every test at Harvard Medical School, but you're his first surgery.
- [53:44]
Pastor Reagan
Right.
- [53:45]
Host/Interviewer
Or the guy who got the degree from the community college but done this one, done the surgery a thousand times.
- [53:51]
Pastor Reagan
Yeah. Give me experience.
- [53:52]
Host/Interviewer
Exactly. Exactly. All day. Yeah. Well, thank you Pastor Matt. And man, just love. I love this study through Matthew. It's been rich. And any closing comments before you pray?
- [54:05]
Pastor Matt Carter
No, I, I just think the key that we want to walk away with today is, is dependence.
- [54:10]
Host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [54:11]
Pastor Matt Carter
As you evaluate your heart and your, you know, is your relationship with God, are you approaching him with your hands open saying, lord, I need you more than what I'm doing for you. God, thank you for what you've done for me. And let my life be an overflow out of that thought. I think that's the heart of this passage.
- [54:28]
Host/Interviewer
Amen.
- [54:28]
Pastor Reagan
Amen. Pray for us, bro.
- [54:30]
Pastor Matt Carter
Father, thank you for your word. God, I, I'm, I'm in awe of it after 52 years, God, I love that I can sit down and, and Lord, I still hear your voice through it. I love that I can still come like a child before your word and, and learn and encounter you. And Father, I pray for everybody listening to this. I pray for God, for all of us, because all of us in some extent struggle with self righteousness and trying to do things ourself. And Lord, I pray that we would have a profound dependence on you, Lord, and that we would trust in you. And Lord, it'll be awesome one day to give you glory for all that you've done in Jesus name.
- [55:09]
Host/Interviewer
Amen. Amen.
- [55:10]
Pastor Reagan
Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.
- [55:13]
Host/Interviewer
You nailed it.
- [55:17]
Pastor Joby Martin
The reality is everything already belongs to God and when we give financially, we're acknowledging that we trust him. If you just watch this and feel led. To make a donation, text the word donate to 441-122 or visit coe22.com donate. Your generosity is not only an act of worship, but an investment so all people can discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ.