From the Mountaintop to the Valley - Matthew S5E5

Summary

Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode Title: From the Mountaintop to the Valley – Matthew S5E5
Release Date: June 29, 2026
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guest: Pastor Britt

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Episode Overview

This episode of Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin centers on the theme of navigating life’s spiritual mountaintop moments and valleys, drawing from Matthew’s account of the Transfiguration and its aftermath. The conversation weaves through Biblical leadership, vulnerability, supernatural realities, suffering, faith, and the practical outworking of discipleship — both in church ministry and daily life. Through personal anecdotes, testimonies, and robust exegesis, Pastor Joby and Pastor Britt encourage listeners to see the significance of encounters with God, the challenge of real faith, and the necessity of humble dependence on Christ in all things.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Leadership in Biblical Context

00:24–05:05

• Debate around "top-down" versus "flat" leadership within Christian organizations.
  • Pastor Britt clarifies that leadership definition matters: biblical leadership includes spiritual gifting and assignment to specific offices such as pastor or elder, for the health and direction of the church.
  • Quote: “I think leadership just comes down to clarity. And leadership is whoever has the clearest direction, clearest voice.” — Pastor Joby [02:57]
  • The conversation contrasts church leadership with the world’s abuses and affirms that the New Testament upholds both authority and humility.

2. Power of Corporate Vulnerability and Confession

05:28–07:38

• Importance and counter-cultural nature of opening up and seeking prayer within the church community.
• Quote: "Even in Christianity … there's been very much for the... entirety of my life, it's kind of me and Jesus. But the beauty of the local church is it ain't just me and Jesus." — Pastor Britt [06:18]
• Emphasis on James 5: confession leading to healing and restoration.
• Authentic vulnerability breaks shame and allows others to lift each other’s burdens (“If you want to be free, you’ve got to be honest.” — Pastor Joby [07:38])

3. Coaching, Discipleship, and the Challenge of Fear

08:09–11:35

• Personal stories about coaching youth sports as a microcosm for spiritual leadership — wanting more for “your players” than even they want for themselves.
• Sports (and discipleship) can expose the paralyzing effects of fear and over-coaching.
  • Quote: “Nothing will expose the crippling effects of fear like a sport.” — Pastor Joby [09:37]
  • Parallels between coaching (“let the muscle memory take over!”) and Jesus’ discipleship methods.

4. The Transfiguration: Glory, Myth, and Supernatural Reality

11:38–17:40

• Reading the Transfiguration not as mere story, but as a true supernatural event that unveils the divine.
• Discussion of the Greek word “metamorphoi” and the significance of Jesus shining, paralleled with Moses’ experience in Exodus.
  • Quote: “The real miracle is not that Jesus put his glory on display, but for 33 years, he shrouded it in his humanity.” — Pastor Joby [13:01]
• First-century mythology and how rationalism can dull our modern sense of the supernatural present in scripture.
• Details like “after six days” connect the Transfiguration directly to Exodus themes and root the story in eyewitness detail.

5. Suffering, Glory, and the Testimony of Faith

19:14–24:56

• Profound reflection on a testimony video shown at church — a family’s journey through adoption and the loss of a child.
• Quote: “In humility radiates glory in a way different than anything else.” — Pastor Britt [19:39]
• Explores 2 Corinthians 4 (“this light, momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory”) with a raw look at suffering’s meaning.
  • Quote: “That does not feel light or momentary … and somehow we will know fully that God used all that preparing for us a glory.” — Pastor Joby [21:30]
• The concept that Christian hope offers an explanation for endurance and heavenly perspective in suffering.

6. Mountaintop Experiences and Living in the Valley

29:44–36:08

• Peter’s impulse to remain on the mountaintop; the desire to “stay in the moment” of God’s presence.
• The necessity of letting mountaintop moments fill us up for the purpose of being “poured out” in mission and service.
  • Quote: “We get filled up with him so that we can go pour ourselves out for the sake of the gospel and serving the people he's called us to serve.” — Pastor Joby [32:59]
• The transfiguration points to transformative encounters fueling real-world obedience, not an escape from it.

7. Listening to Jesus vs. Competing Voices

37:44–41:09

• The divine voice at the Transfiguration: “Listen to him!” (echoing the baptism and challenging Peter's interruption).
• Quote: “We got to quit listening [to the world]. We got to start talking to ourselves more. But just say Jesus's words back to yourself.” — Pastor Joby [39:04]
• The danger of being discipled more by culture, media, or fear than by Christ's words.

8. Supernatural Opposition and Spiritual Warfare

41:09–44:16

• Discussion about the demonic realities active in the world, the need for spiritual vigilance (“there’s a lion out there seeking to devour”).
  • Quote: “At no point does the enemy only want to entertain you. So if he is entertaining you … it is just a part of his strategy to kill, steal, and destroy you.” — Pastor Joby [42:15]

9. The Desperate, Honest Prayer of Unbelief

44:25–49:41

• Focus on the desperate father in Mark 9/Matthew 17: “I believe; help my unbelief.”
• Contrasts works-based approaches to God with true poverty of spirit.
  • Quote: “Faith is not the amount, it's the object … Whatever little tiny bit of mustard seed faith you have ... bring it to me.” — Pastor Joby [47:33]
• Jesus is moved not by bargains, but by humble, honest petitions.

10. Role of Faith Amidst Incompetence, Parenting, and Ministry

49:41–56:13

• Pastors reflect on the tension between competence and dependency — particularly in leadership, parenting, and preaching.
• Quote: “Where I feel most competent, I feel least dependent.” — Pastor Britt [51:26]
• Parenting remains a journey of desperate prayer at every stage (“Lord, help me!”).

11. Mustard Seed Faith and the “Impossible”

56:13–61:10

• Unpacking Jesus’ teaching: faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains.
• The importance of faith’s object, not its size; the "mountain" as a metaphor for the impossible things only God can do.
  • Quote: “The real mountain of our, like, the real solid foundation is that we're putting our faith in You, not in our circumstances.” — Pastor Joby [58:53]
• Rejecting “name it and claim it” theology — recognizing that faith doesn’t guarantee our desired outcome, but guarantees God’s purposes.

12. The Ripple Effect of Testimony and Eternal Perspective

61:20–66:23

• The ripple effect of faith, prayer, and testimony—impacting generations often unknown to us.
• Quote: “When you’re praying over somebody, you're throwing a rock in the pond, and the ripples are just going…” — Pastor Britt [63:42]
• The ultimate joy in heaven will include seeing the fullness of God’s redemption — the legacy of every act of faith.

13. Prayer and the Father’s Heart

66:37–67:48

• Closing comments: God delights in hearing his children pray; referencing Revelation 8, where all of heaven is hushed to listen to the prayers of the saints.
  • Quote: “He hears the prayers of his people and he wants to. He yearns for it.” — Pastor Joby [66:37]
• Concludes in prayer: “God, we believe. And please help us in every area where we don’t.”

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:57 | Pastor Joby | "Leadership just comes down to clarity. And leadership is whoever has the clearest direction, clearest voice." | | 06:18 | Pastor Britt | "The beauty of the local church is it ain't just me and Jesus. It's like I have all brothers and sisters who will carry this burden with me." | | 09:37 | Pastor Joby | "Nothing will expose the crippling effects of fear like a sport. ... You see what freedom looks like on the field." | | 13:01 | Pastor Joby | “The real miracle is not that Jesus put his glory on display, but ... he shrouded it in his humanity.” | | 19:39 | Pastor Britt | “In humility radiates glory in a way different than anything else.” | | 21:30 | Pastor Joby | “That does not feel light and momentary...yet as compared...that tragedy will somehow be light and momentary.” | | 32:59 | Pastor Joby | "We get filled up with him so that we can go pour ourselves out for the sake of the gospel." | | 39:04 | Pastor Joby | "We got to quit listening [to the world]. We got to start talking to ourselves more. ... Just say Jesus's words back to yourself." | | 42:15 | Pastor Joby | "At no point does the enemy only want to entertain you. ... it is just a part of his strategy to kill, steal, and destroy you." | | 47:33 | Pastor Joby | “Faith is not the amount, it's the object … bring whatever little tiny bit of mustard seed faith you have to me.” | | 51:26 | Pastor Britt | "Where I feel most competent, I feel least dependent." | | 58:53 | Pastor Joby | “…the real solid foundation is that we're putting our faith in you, not in our circumstances.” | | 63:42 | Pastor Britt | “When you're praying over somebody, you're throwing a rock in the pond, and the ripples are just going…” | | 66:37 | Pastor Joby | “He hears the prayers of his people and he wants to. He yearns for it.” |

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Highlighted Moments & Timestamps

• Leadership and Clarity: [02:57]
• Confession and Community: [06:18]
• Coaching & Fear vs. Freedom: [09:37]
• Transfiguration Parallels to Exodus: [13:01], [17:26]
• Testimony of Suffering & Glory: [19:39], [21:30]
• Mountaintop vs. Valley: [32:59], [36:08]
• Listening to Jesus/Media Influence: [39:04]
• Supernatural Opposition & Spiritual Warfare: [42:15]
• Honest, Desperate Prayer: [47:33]
• Faith in Parenting & Ministry: [51:26], [56:13]
• Mustard Seed Faith: [58:53]
• The Ripple Effect of Testimony: [63:42]
• The Father’s Heart for Prayer: [66:37]

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by candid, practical wisdom, gentle humor, scriptural depth, and deep pastoral empathy. Joby and Britt keep the dialogue conversational, encouraging, yet unafraid to name pain, doubt, or struggle. The effect is both honest and hopeful, offering listeners a vision of Christian life (and church) that’s robustly supernatural, deeply relational, and grounded in grace.

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Takeaway for Listeners

• True leadership, spiritual or practical, is marked by humility, clarity, and servanthood.
• Vulnerability and confession in Christian community are keys to healing and freedom.
• Encounters with God (mountaintop moments) are vital, not as an escape, but as fuel for obedience in the valleys.
• Faith, even small and mingled with doubt, moves God when its object is Christ.
• Suffering and glory are intertwined; our present pain matters to God and will be understood fully in eternity.
• The impact of our faith, prayer, and testimony is far-reaching — in time and eternity.
• Jesus invites us: “Bring your real self to the real Jesus.”
• God hears and yearns for our prayers, and his glory is magnified in every surrendered, honest life.

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Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Pastor Britt]

All right.

[Host/Interviewer]

Welcome back to Deepen Podcast. Pastor Joby.

[Pastor Britt]

Pastor Britt, My man, the OG the

[Guest Pastor]

original group right here.

[Pastor Britt]

Oh, that's it, baby.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's good to be back. Hey, Pastor Joby, before we dive into this text, here's let's. Let's take a little side side note on leadership with Jes. I was with a friend recently who works for a. Works with a Christian organization. Will not name the organization, but they. He said they believe that top down leadership is not biblical.

[Guest Pastor]

Okay.

[Host/Interviewer]

And so it's like this amorphous. We all sit in a circle and share equal opinions. So when you start talking about Peter, James and John, it made me think of that question. So talk a little bit more about what you mentioned. Jesus had his three. He had.

[Guest Pastor]

Remember that part where Jesus said follow? We remember that. Right. That's where he gathered. Where he gathered all 12 disciples and said, I'm gonna give all y' all the kings of the kingdom of heaven. You remember that part?

[Pastor Britt]

I think a lot of it has to go to your definition of leadership. So what do you define as leadership? And so if you. If you're looking at an organizational chart in a 21st century organizational context and you define leadership as decision making rights, then. Okay, you know, I don't necess. Eventually someone has to make decisions, but

[Guest Pastor]

if you're responsible for them.

[Pastor Britt]

Exactly.

[Guest Pastor]

So who's that person that.

[Pastor Britt]

So the collective, like, let's keep it as flat as we can, you know, to stay on the same page, moving the same direction. I think you didn't ask me this question, so sorry to just jump in.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, you're a leadership guru.

[Pastor Britt]

Well, I appreciate that. And. But that said, it's all about your definition of leadership. What do you mean? And so I think when we say leadership, we talk about it in terms of how the Bible talks about it. And there's two sides of it. One side is a spiritual gift that some people get. Spirit, clearly it's a spiritual gift that some people have. Not everybody has that gift. Not everybody has all the gifts. Some people have the gift of spiritual leadership inside the context of the church. It is very much that there are offices assigned to stewarding responsibility inside of the church. And so that would be the effective definition of leadership inside the churches. The people who are assigned to specific offices. Pastor, elder, to steward, responsibility for the sake of the flock and for the sake of the health of the local church. So definitions matter.

[Guest Pastor]

Yep.

[Pastor Britt]

We can change definitions and then maybe stand on our ear and agree.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, I would. I think. I haven't thought this all the way through, so you could probably poke holes in it. I think leadership just comes down to clarity. And leadership is whoever has the clearest direction, clearest voice. And in a room with everybody talking, it's hard to bring clarity. And somebody in that room brings the most clarity, and that's the actual leader. It's helpful when those. When it's clearly defined which voice is going to be the final responsible one. Because what I also, in Hebrews, it didn't sound to me like everybody at church stands before God and gives an account. Jesus says teachers of the word preachers are held to a different account. So it falls apart there. And just because the world has done it poorly, like in a domineering way, because if you're an elder, you can't be domineering. You'd be disqualified. But just because they have played Mozart's tune badly doesn't mean there's something wrong with Mozart. And so I think what we're supposed to do is take the positions that are clearly articulated in scripture, and they are positions of authority, and you bathe them, you baptize them in some Philippians, chapter two. And our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who, being very nature, God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he humbled himself. And so the posture of the leader in the church should be that of humility without abdicating responsibility. Yeah, but listen, man, try a team with four quarterbacks all playing at the same time. Just see how it goes. Especially if they're not. Somebody's got to call to play or everybody won't run in the right direction. Just telling you follow we doesn't work biblically.

[Host/Interviewer]

Where would the Catholic Church be without the Popes?

[Guest Pastor]

There you go.

[Host/Interviewer]

I don't remember when I first.

[Guest Pastor]

But even that. Okay, even that. It's clear.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Guest Pastor]

Like, I'm getting asked a lot about women pastors right now because of what the Southern Baptists are going through. Let me tell you, one of the great advantages if you're a Catholic, you ain't got to argue about it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

You believe the guy with a hat said no girls, period. What are you going to argue about? There is clarity.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

You know?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. I don't remember where I first read it or heard it. But it's very interesting the. When you see that pattern there of Jesus as the leader with his three and then the 12 and then the crowds, I forget who I first heard that from. Anyway, thank you for that. Well, what a powerful night this was.

[Pastor Britt]

Anytime we do prayer and anointing and you just, man, you just never know, bro. I mean, we know because we live in ministry, in people's lives, weekend and week out. We know that people are carrying burden. We know that people are walking through hard times. We know you just never know how many and how much. And specifically what. When you open up the altars and just do what the Bible says. We're going to pray for the sick, we're going to pray for the hurting, we're going to pray. And it's just really powerful to see people put themselves in that vulnerable position because it's so anti cultural. It's just anti cultural to be vulnerable with other people. And even in Christianity, there's very much. There's been very much for the. At least the entirety of my life. It's like it's kind of me and Jesus.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

But the beauty of the local church is it ain't just me and Jesus. It's like I have all brothers and sisters who will carry this burden with me. And so it's really beautiful you see people open their lives that way.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, I've mentioned it somewhere before, but you know, James 5, confess your sins to one another that you may be healed. And I think one of the shadows of the Protestant Reformation, which I'm very much pro Protestant Reformation because it brought us back to the source of authority being the scripture. But there's a lot of things, I think that we just kind of threw the baby out with the bath water.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

And the, the lack of confession, confessing your sins to one another, you know, because Jesus is the great high priest and he is the mediator and we don't need a, you know, there's the priests of the believers. All these things are true. But that does not make James 5 untrue. And I think there's a lot of people not walking in, healing because they have not confessed sins to one another and prayed for one another. Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

I mean, there's just something powerful if me and you're in the truck. Right. Which. When's the last time we were in the truck? But yeah, let's just say. And I just say something tr. Right about a struggle in my parenting or I just say something true about not a struggle, but like man, I am really battling selfishness in this area. As soon as I give it a name and I say it out loud, it immediately begins to lose its power.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. That's what I mean when I say you fight the devil in the dark, you always get your butt kicked. And if you want to be free, you got to be honest. All these things are in the same realm. Speaking of parenting, you had a big, big day, right?

[Pastor Britt]

Day one, day one of the state championships. We won this morning.

[Guest Pastor]

Let's go.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, we won this morning.

[Guest Pastor]

You've been on the road, right?

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, we won.

[Guest Pastor]

Back at it tomorrow.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, we play again tomorrow morning. If we win that, we be. We're in the semifinals. If we don't, we got to win our way through. And so we'll just see what happens. But. Yeah, really proud of the team. It was awesome.

[Guest Pastor]

Good job, coach.

[Pastor Britt]

Thanks, man. Yeah, we're having fun.

[Guest Pastor]

Don't miss it, man. It's so much fun.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

I might blow the entire witness of this church on the softball field.

[Guest Pastor]

That's fine. So trust me, my own personal testimony,

[Pastor Britt]

all the love points are there.

[Guest Pastor]

I'm just.

[Pastor Britt]

I'm sorry in advance, Pastor Britt.

[Guest Pastor]

My own personal testimony is the threshold is a lot higher than you realize, because I. I too, have stood on the sidelines of many diamonds and football fields.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, super interesting, you know, like, it's a little microcosm of leadership or pastoring, which aren't the same thing by any means, but the. Like, when you really want more for people than they know how to want for themselves, that's a lot of what coaching is. It's like, I know what you have in the tank. I know what you have, and I've seen you at a high level, and I want you to operate at that level because I know the. The how good it's going to feel for you, and I know what it's going to do for you in regards to the rest of your life.

[Guest Pastor]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

And it's. Coaches all the time will say, you know, you forget the wins and the lose. The losses stay with you. And that's true. I mean, I played a lot of ball. And the losses stay with you. But it's not just the losses. So when you lose games, when you're just playing teams that are better than you, but you really, like, left it on the field, that one doesn't stay with you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Y.

[Pastor Britt]

It's when you know that you didn't leave it on the field because you just were, for whatever reason, couldn't dig in. That Tank. And so a lot of my coaching is like digging the tank, you know, let's let. Let's get down to the last drop here and push, push, push, push.

[Guest Pastor]

And nothing will expose the crippling effects of fear like a sport. I'm telling you, man, if they could just swing like they swing in the batting cage when there's no fear, or they would just throw it like they can throw it when you're just at practice because there's no fear, then you really see what freedom looks like on the field.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, it's fascinating because I. I do coach from first base quite a bit. And part of the reason I like it over there is because when they're up to bat, you know, there are coaches who are trying to coach them at the plate, like giving them swing thoughts at the plate, and they're trying to, like, remind them of all the technical things that they need to do

[Host/Interviewer]

to get a hit.

[Pastor Britt]

And I just see that adding to the crippling nature of.

[Guest Pastor]

Slows you down.

[Pastor Britt]

Yes, it. And so, like, I, I love it because there's no coaching there. It's just, hey, do your thing. Get up there and do your thing.

[Guest Pastor]

That's it.

[Pastor Britt]

You're just trying to level set. You've done this a thousand times. Just get there and do your thing. Let the muscle memory take over. And so, yeah, it's fun. Thanks for asking.

[Guest Pastor]

Me tell you Little league baseball summed up the majority of strikeouts are this. This is for free. First pitch comes right down the middle, bats on their shoulder, and everybody's like, come on, you got to swing. Next pitch, bad pitch. They swing at a bad pitch, everybody's like, no, don't swing. It was over your head. Next pitch comes, they watch it go down the middle. Strike three. You just. I mean, dude, the first time when they watched it, you just got to go, that one yours, no problem.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, you know, you've seen it now.

[Guest Pastor]

Because the most. Because what they're. Now they're like, oh, I got to hit. And then they take a bad swing and they're thinking, whatever you do is don't. And their first thought is don't not do. And then they watch the third strike.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

And I. Dude, the number of times I had to pull our coaches and be like, stop it, stop it. You cannot. I'm. That was your strikeout. You were striking our kids out. Stop. You know, it's just. There you go. That's it, man.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Coaching and discipleship are similar.

[Guest Pastor]

There's a lot.

[Pastor Britt]

It is.

[Guest Pastor]

It ain't the same.

[Pastor Britt]

But there are. There are a lot of shared similarities. No doubt.

[Host/Interviewer]

And, you know, in this text, you have Jesus coaching the boys a little bit. So we're going to talk about this, this, this event. The Mount Transfiguration will start there. You, you mentioned, Pastor Joby, that that word in Greek is metamorphoi.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And it changed to change form. I thought, I thought of this. The par. He's paralleling Moses because Moses goes up on the mountain. Doesn't he bring named people with him?

[Guest Pastor]

He does.

[Host/Interviewer]

And then he encounters God and he glows. His face glows. So there's some parallels there. Let's talk about the significance of his face shining and his clothes shining.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, Psalm 104. The Bible says that God closed himself in light. I think we're just like at a real limit with language here. Like you're trying to describe the indescribable. Shout out Chris Tomlin. And you know, the brightest thing that Matthew can come up with is the sun. Luke goes with lightning. If you look at the description of Jesus enthroned in the book of Revelation, you just see lights and gemstones refracting and reflecting. And so he is putting on display what God looks like, not shrouded in humanity. So again, shout out Chris Brown, the pastor at North Coast Church. He says the real miracle is not that Jesus put his glory on display, but for 33 years, he shrouded it in his humanity. He's kind of hitting pause on that part of it.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, that'll preach. Yeah, he's coming in at some point. I don't know if he was on this podcast or built for more or something.

[Guest Pastor]

Oh, good.

[Pastor Britt]

But Joel Mutamali. Oh, yeah, coming in for something. He's a Heiser disciple. We've talked about him before. One of the things that they contend for, and it's really been really good for me in my discipleship. Reading, going back and reading and reading some of their writings. One of the things that they talk a lot about is mythology's role in the first century and that the. The culture was so mythologically driven. And I even mentioned this last week in the sermon, that even though most of that was just absolute craziness as compared to what we read in the Bible, one of the things, the rational age of reason and all, all things being rational and logical and explainable in the world we live in now is that we've punted on supernatural things that live very, very, very, very close to the natural. And that a lot of times when we Read the Bible, because we do live in a world where the supernatural is way out there somewhere and we live in a natural world that's very explainable. At least we think we do. When I. It just changes the way I read the transfiguration, you know, And I don't read it as a story. I read it as a, a testimony of like true mythology, if you will. Like this is actually God.

[Guest Pastor]

And you mean myth, like in the technical sense too. Like the, like it's not fiction. Yeah, yeah. It's not a made up story. Like the line the Witch and the Wardrobe. It is, it just means story. I mean the thing that led C.S. lewis to Christ is J.R. tolkien. As they were talking about the idea that your mind could come up with these kind of myths, J.R. tolkien was the first one to tell him maybe you were created for something more. And then he just said, they called him Jack. They said, jack, what if the myth is true? And he meant the story of Christ found in the scriptures. And it was after that converse that phrase, what if the myth is true? And CS Lewis gets on his bike and he studied, he was a, he has PhD in medieval mythology and was teaching it at Cambridge. And he gets on his bike and he heads back to his apartment and when he gets on Addison Way, it's this little dirt path you can still walk today. And he just could not shake that because the myths of medieval mythology, it didn't line up because the, the scriptures had too many details and had things like, if Peter's really a hero, why is he so embarrassing? You know, all those kinds of things that you wouldn't, if you were making this up, you wouldn't write those things in. And he enters Addison Walk unconverted. And he says by the time he gets to the end of it, he was Europe's most reluctant convert because the hounds of heaven chased him down and he put his faith in Christ. But it was that phrase, what if the myth is true?

[Pastor Britt]

Well, it's really helped me a lot too in the sense of like what you talked about at the end of the sermon tonight when you started talking about oppression and demonic activity and all of these things that we've clearly believe in that the New Testament teaches, you've taught on it many times. But where does that all come from? And how is it all ordered and what's the like thinking through some of these things with, through his unseen battle and a lot of Heiser's writings, you know, going back Genesis 3, Genesis 6, things that you could read around them and Be like, I don't even know what I'm talking about. Like it's actually rooted in supernatural realities.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Pastor Britt]

That there is a supernatural reality that is at work in the natural world as we understand it. And then as you begin to get your head around, begins to help you pray more specifically and pray more directionally. And it just helps the tools in the tool bag of spiritual warfare to be sharper, you know what I mean? When you see everything through a more holistic lens, not just through a logical, rational lens. And one of the details, it's like, even in the transfiguration, you wouldn't read this in most fiction books that are rooted in that have some version of a creative creation narrative. This, like, specifically, like after six days.

[Guest Pastor]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

Like that's a real specific detail.

[Guest Pastor]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

Like, why six days? Why, if you were just making up a story, does that make sense? But it's like the reason I is because it was literally six days later.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Pastor Britt]

Like, these details matter.

[Guest Pastor]

And back in Exodus, God tells Moses, I'm gonna give you three days to get ready to come up on the mountain and then go tell the people. And he gave them three days for them to consecrate themselves. And then he walks up on the mountain. So if you're a first century Jewish audience and you heard six days and named people go up on the mountain where the cloud was, you're like, I've heard of this before. Yeah, yeah. So you can't just make this stuff up.

[Pastor Britt]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think. I don't know if it's just the way my mind works or if this happens to everybody, but sometimes you can read events in the scripture almost like you're looking and through them through tunnel vision. And so you're just thinking about this and it's like, oh, this is interesting. And trying to figure out, figure it out. But you forget the cross view, like a cross scripture view, because that really illuminates a lot. If you think about how often divine beings are represented by light and shining. Like you mentioned like, that so many angels were like, oh, they were shining. Moses's face was shining. And so it's not just a random. He just randomly started shining. No, it's like it's revealing the divine.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. And I kind of goof on Mark sometimes because, you know, Matthew uses the sun and Luke uses lightning and Mark says, and their clothes were wider than anyone could bleach them, you know, and that seems kind of silly, but I do think it's a foreshadowing because when the, when the Disciples show up to the empty tomb, and there is one like an angel who's. Whose clothes shined in brilliant light. So. So apparently the heavenly wardrobe is a kind of brightness that you could not achieve here on this planet.

[Pastor Britt]

One of the things that I was thinking about as you were preaching tonight, and obviously in the context of the transfiguration, but I was really thinking a lot about the testimony video that played tonight. I mean, unbelievable.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. These people afterwards.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah. Really powerful. I'm just. What an honor that they would share that story with us. I mean, that's hard to do, but even I was. As I was watching it. Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

I just.

[Pastor Britt]

I had a couple of thoughts. One is that I felt like they. They wouldn't use these words, but in a unique way, they were radiating glory. And I was just really marked by the sense that in humility radiates glory in a way different than anything else. Like the humility at which they were talking about their testimony. What. What has happened in their family. It just radiated glory in a different way. And so it's like, I. You know, I mean, like, we see a lot of testimony. They're all powerful, and I'll praise God for them. But tonight's was like, there's like a unique glory.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Being shown through that kind of suffering

[Host/Interviewer]

because there's no explanation for it.

[Pastor Britt]

None.

[Host/Interviewer]

No. Nothing makes sense besides God.

[Pastor Britt]

Yes. Incredible, man. Incredible.

[Guest Pastor]

There's a verse in Corinthians. I got to look it up.

[Pastor Britt]

There's a lot of verses in Corinthians.

[Guest Pastor]

There are. But it's. It's. It'll It'll kind of bother you. You would. We wouldn't write it this way,

[Host/Interviewer]

but

[Guest Pastor]

Paul is telling the church at Corinth, when you go through pain, when you go through trials, and you go through tragedy, it's not meaningless because God is working for your glory in the future. You know, because we only talk about the glory of God. But there's this, you know, I mean, kind of like Moses, Right. We're going to see him face to face, and our faces, too, will shine with his glory. But our faces, not as much, obviously. Anyway, I was trying to look it up.

[Host/Interviewer]

Is it from chapter four, this light, momentary affliction.

[Guest Pastor]

Read it.

[Host/Interviewer]

For this light, momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison for us.

[Guest Pastor]

I mean, think about that. So here's how great heaven is. Okay, so this couple, just in case. You just listen to this and you don't watch the service. This couple's battling infertility. They go down the adoption route, they get called, they meet their daughter, they adopt her. And they're like, she's ours. Everything's joyful, honestly, similar to the way the dad describes it in Mark 9. And it's not from the first moment, but after a little while they realize something's off. They go to the doctor and the doctor says, you don't want to adopt this girl because here are the problems they choose. I mean, what are they going to do? Give her back? You know what I mean? I mean, I talked to him in the lobby. They were like, that's our daughter. So it doesn't feel light, momentary. Her daughter, their daughter lives to be 11 years old and passes away. That does not feel light and momentary. Yet as compared. As painful as that is, as compared to the peace and the joy that we will know, that we will fully experience. Romans 8:28. That God's been at work in all things for the good of those that live in that. That tragedy will somehow be light and momentary. And somehow we will know fully that God used all that preparing for us. A glory. If. If you watch the. It's hard to get your head around though. He slay me. Chain and chainsaw. The one on YouTube that's got the Piper thing in the middle of it. That's what he talks about. And he's like, whether it's cancer or a car wreck, it's not meaningless. He is working it for your. A glory that goes. That we experience. Gotta be careful about the words you use there. Because. Because it's not vainglory. It's all to him. But. But we're wrapped up in that.

[Pastor Britt]

Praise God.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's kind of like. I mean, there's a. There's a uniqueness to many things that are only explainable by God. Right. Like you think about the. They love not their lives, even unto death.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, every other person, their first instinct is self preservation. Like preserve life. But then what do you do with people who say you. You can't even threaten me with that. You know, it's like it just defies. It defies anything else besides a supernatural

[Guest Pastor]

explanation, you know, when often. Well, one of the times I preached this, it was right after Bradley died, you know, and I wasn't mad. I don't know what I was but confused. That's one of those. I believe held my own beliefs. I mean, the dude, I led him to Christ. I baptized him on a mission trip. He went on mission trips with me. He built churches in Jamaica and hospitals. And then he Comes here, and he literally spending his life creating the seats by which the PE people here get saved.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

In.

[Guest Pastor]

In our mind, that seems like a dude you want to keep around for a long time. You know what I mean? And so Brit and I were in my office talking about it. He was just checking on me. And Brit said some version of. Even though it's confusing right now and all of that, you're gonna get to heaven and go, you did it again, God. You know, like, somehow I'll still be cheering him on for the things that hurt really bad, you know?

[Pastor Britt]

Amen.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think it's a. Is it a. Is it a preacher or a song? It's. If it's not good, he's not done.

[Guest Pastor]

That's a. It's a elevation worship song. I love it. The only. I don't love the first line of the song, but I love the whole song. Torrin. Whatever his name is, sings on it too. Yeah, Torn, He's a great dude. He's a good preacher, too, by the way.

[Pastor Britt]

And he's planted a church out in Austin, dude.

[Guest Pastor]

He did. He's crushing it. Yeah, he's really good. He's preaching at Life Church this week. The first line is, everything happens for a reason, but you don't know what you don't know. So, you know, I don't like the everything happens for a reason kind of phrase. It's kind of a colloquialism of Romans 8:28. But, bro, they just start getting after it on. They take Romans 8, 28. And so it says, for God is at work in all things, for the good. So in the song about 20 times, they say, so if it's not good, he's not done. That's a good line.

[Pastor Britt]

And.

[Guest Pastor]

And he might not. We might not be able to experience the goodness till we get there, but he ain't done. No doubt.

[Host/Interviewer]

That's great. You. Pastor Joby, you mentioned the heroes of the Old Testament showing up here, and I thought it was funny. My kids are watching a lot of Batman cartoons right now.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And so on. They. I mean, Moses and a lot. This is not random either, right? These two appear. So let's talk a little about the significance of those two guys specifically showing up and talking to Jesus.

[Guest Pastor]

So I think it's Romans 3.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

For by works of the law, no one will be justified in his sight, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it.

[Pastor Britt]

And the.

[Guest Pastor]

It is the righteousness that Christ provides for us. When I first. When that dawned on me or whatever, I. About Came out of my skin, dude. I'm like, that's it, right? So the mountain of transfiguration and the verse out of Romans, that's it. So the guy that wrote the law and the greatest of all the major prophets are. And then Luke says what they're talking about. The English translation says they're talking about Christ's return. But the word in Greek is Exodus. So the Exodus was not just the nation of Israel leaving Egypt. It was the lamb was slain, the blood put on the doorpost of the house, the angel of death passing over, and the people of God being transferred from slavery to freedom. And that's what Moses and Elijah are bearing testimony to. That's what Jesus is here to do. They're just chatting it up about that. Imagine that conversation. Because they are, they, they've been in heaven. Like they're not bound by chronology anymore. I guess we get to see the end from the beginning too. You know what I mean? And that's the conversation that they're having.

[Pastor Britt]

Well, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but anytime I read this, the testimony of the transfiguration, I think of Hebrews 12, you know. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight finishing the race, like that means something. And I know it's been over interpreted and it's like, you know, or people say it to me all the time, your dad's looking down from heaven and he's so proud of you. And like, I think, I mean, I know what you're saying and I appreciate the encouragement. I don't know exactly how the saints in heaven interact with, in regards to the visualization and there of a natural world still cloaked in the ash of sin, if you will.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

But I do feel like I have testimony from Scripture that the cloud of witnesses is cheering for us, is seeing the full finished work from their perspective going, don't give up, man. Like you've tasted a little bit. We're eating all day.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Don't give up.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You know what I mean? And it's like Moses, Moses and Elijah, from their perspective, they've been hanging out up there for about five minutes from when they lived on the earth.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You know what I mean?

[Host/Interviewer]

You think about their conscious experience, they're just like, like, wait, what? All right, I'll, you know, come with me. You know, they got to go through some kind of portal and now they're, oh, this is earth again. No, I don't know what don't you

[Pastor Britt]

think also that the specific to Moses and Elijah, it's the thing we've been talking about through the entire book of. Of Matthew, which is it's just even more validation around Jesus is what Israel was always supposed to be.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right, right.

[Pastor Britt]

Because these are the two guys that you would just take in. Abraham, you would just hang the mantle of Israel's past on their prophetic shoulders, if you will. You know what I mean? And they're the ones there. Yeah, there's something to that for sure.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think that I was thinking about the way that. So Moses represents the time when the Israelites were first. They were first formed into a nation. And then maybe Elijah represents a time when they had turned away. It was posted, you know, the split and partial exile and everything.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, Ahab and Jezebel are running the show.

[Host/Interviewer]

Exactly. And it's like, so it's God's loving initiative and God's faithfulness in the midst of our sin, testifying to Jesus and his word.

[Pastor Britt]

That'll preach.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right. Well, Peter, you know, it gets me every time. It is good that we are here. You know, he speaks, he interjects, which, you know, maybe not smart, but I'm so glad you talked about the mountaintop moments, because that's usually what I think of. I'm like. I think I kind of feel for him.

[Guest Pastor]

I am Peter. That's how I make fun of him so much.

[Pastor Britt]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's because I sometimes, like, please, I just don't want this to end. Like, tonight you're praying with people, you're just like, I just hope it keeps going.

[Guest Pastor]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know? And so what is it about those mountaintop moments that want us, that make us want to not leave them?

[Guest Pastor]

Well, moments matter. I mean, you know, the life of Moses, the moment he encounters the burning bush, that moment matters. You just don't get to pitch a tent by the burning bush and just hang out with God talking to you through a burning bush for the rest of your life. Like, he calls us to action. So, I mean, shame on any church that devalues the moment. I mean, it's really popular right now for people to say, well, you know, those big churches, this is about entertainment and whatever. I can't speak for every church, but every church I get to go to and preach at that's big and has bands and lights, or they're just trying to remove whatever distractions of this world to have a doxologically focused moment to encounter the living God. You got all these promises from God in the Scriptures about what happens when you sit under the teaching of His Word, when the saints gather, that, you know, he inhabits the. The praises of his people, things like that. These things matter.

[Pastor Britt]

The.

[Guest Pastor]

The church fathers called, called it the thin place. You know, it's like where heaven touches earth in a unique way. And I know for me, I mean, that moment at camp, it was.

[Pastor Britt]

Camp.

[Guest Pastor]

It was the last night of camp. It was. We'd been singing the songs and hearing. Hearing the Bible taught all week and, and they were very, the counselors were. They were very strategic about creating this moment where we would. They reenacted the crucifixion of Christ in a very serious and somber way so that we could see this was. This really happened. And a real Jesus died on a real cross. For the real me, that moment changed my eternity. And it was in a moment. And so those moments matter. And I think it's just a part of the yearning of the eternity that God has put in us, you know, so these things are good. So the folks that just say, well, you know, I mean, you hear, you heard it during COVID would be like, well, you know, the church in a gathering and you know, you were just sitting rows and sing karaoke and do a TED Talk. I'd be like, well, no wonder you never experienced the living God there. You don't even want to bro. Our people experience the living God here because people show up expectant with hearts tilled up with good soil, ready to receive the word and ready to worship the king who's worthy of it. It. So those things matter. It's just not the only thing we've been called to. Those moments we get filled up with him so that we can go pour ourselves out for the sake of the gospel and serving the people he's called us to serve.

[Host/Interviewer]

You've heard that phrase, you know, so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, I think C.S. lewis actually said that first.

[Host/Interviewer]

But what would you say to the person who my somebody was sharing with my wife, like they went on a retreat and they were like, oh, it's just so amazing. And I. I almost feel like I don't even want to come back to my normal life. I feel like it's hard for me to do my normal life now. And I was like, I think I get what they mean.

[Guest Pastor]

Did I get.

[Host/Interviewer]

But I agree, but is there something wrong there? Or like, how do you. How do we see the. What you talked about like that it actually should lead us down into the.

[Guest Pastor]

Like, what helps people is the want to wrong. No, I think it is a good and right thing to just one day in your courts is better than a thousand days elsewhere. Problem is, you hadn't called me to hang out in your courts all the nights, so you got to be obedient to what you called me to do. I don't want to go fight demons, but you've called me to go fight demons. You think Paul would. I mean, he said to live as Christ. He wanted to die and go to heaven. He didn't want to be in the jail, but he's like, but if that's what you call me to do, I got work to do, so I'll do it. So I. I get what folks are saying. The problem would be is if you. If you were not obedient to go therefore, and make disciples, because you just put you at the, like, the feelings that you have with that kind of intimacy with the Lord, and you made that the priority, and you abdicated the responsibility of making disciples.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

That would be the problem, but the yearning for it, no problem.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think you said it like we're supposed to be filled up, to be poured out.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Don't you think that, like, the transfiguration is a good example of this? It's like when you have real encounters with God on a retreat, in a gathering, with other believers. Now this is even. I mean, because I think the thin place can be experienced in the prayer closet in your own unique God. You know, it's just anywhere where it's like a really tangible sense that eternity has invaded reality is kind of how I think Dr. George would say it. And that said, I totally understand the sentiment. But one of the things that I think marks a true encounter with God is that there is some kind. Something is different in the direction of God, leaving the encounter different in you. Different in you.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

That it doesn't terminate on you and your feelings. But there's something now that's different about you in the direction that God would have you.

[Guest Pastor]

So when. When the demoniacs are delivered, they're like, can we just be with you? And he's like, no, you got to go tell the town. When the woman at the well is freed, she goes and tells the town, like, you know, we. I think it's a right desire, but the command is, well, you're rescued to be a part of the rescue team.

[Host/Interviewer]

And I made this connection while you're talking, too. You're so good, Pastor Joby. It's talking about how faith moves you faith moves you to obedience and walking out your walk. And when Jesus rebukes them, he says, oh, you have little faith. And so they were not moved to the, the right kind of action.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, the first time I've ever put this together, this is what teaching big chunks will help you with. Matthew says, faithless and twisted. And the word that we get, perverted is the same word. And so they in, I mean, just in chapter 10, it's not that long ago in chapter 10, he has given them authority to do the thing that they have the opportunity to do right there. Like they went out looking for it in 10. Now it came looking for them. And he's like, how have you perverted and forgotten you. You said it last week.

[Pastor Britt]

You.

[Guest Pastor]

A lot of times we forget to remember. They had. And then they asked, why couldn't we do this? And he's like, well, you got to pray. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that they were. They were praying for the guy, but it didn't work. They were arguing with the scribes over something.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Before we get there, when they're still on the mountaintop. And you pointed this out, it's the same thing pronounced from heaven over Jesus. That was at his baptism. Then it says, you know, listen to him. And I love what you said. It's really hard to listen when you're always talking. So yes, it's true that he, I think he's kind of calling Peter out there. But there's a broader. Is broader, right? Like listen to him is broader than just to Peter.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. And then you should pay very close attention to who you're listening to. Because I mean, a lot of us, like I said, a lot of us listen to the world way too much, man. I'm just telling you, we're discipled by this world. If you spend 40 hours a week listening to your paid for cable news to reinform you, your, your political echo chamber, your conspiracy theory podcast, which is probably right. They're just early, you know, if that's what you're listening to, if you're just listening to all the commercials that are telling you about the next thing that's going to bring you satisfaction, insecurity, it's going to lead you astray. Or if you listen to the enemy who's going to speak lies and fear and condemnation to you, or if you listen to yourself too much, then your feelings, the lust of the flesh, lust in the eyes and the pride of life will take over.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

And so we got to quit listening. We got to start talking to ourselves more. But just say Jesus's words back to yourself. You know, a part of the way that you can listen to him is just read his word to you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

I remember hearing Dr. Piper one time, and he's very unique in how he structures his personal habits. Right. Like, I don't know that he has a television, but that's a great way. And he was talking about entertainment or. Or TV or something. And he was like, let's just take all the, you know, violence or sex or whatever and put it over here. And he was talking about how it just bothers him that the reality is Godless. Like, it's dealing in terms of just no consideration of God at all. He's like, I can't even handle. In a very Piper way. I can't even handle that. You know, because he is reality. And there's just so. So even. Even sort of like what might be considered innocent things that you're filling your mind with, if it doesn't include God, if it's not pushing you towards God.

[Guest Pastor]

One of my favorite recent things that he said, some version of. He goes, the one gift that social media will be to us. And then one of those big Piper pauses because you're like, you even know what social media is, Dr. Weibber, is that it will prove to us that prayerlessness was not due to a lack of time.

[Pastor Britt]

Ain't no doubt about it, right?

[Guest Pastor]

Wow.

[Pastor Britt]

Piper. Doctor One in the dub category for Piper there. It's true, man. Yeah, it's true. I. I don't think I live aware of this enough. And it's a pretty convicting thought that somebody's in charge of this world now. There's somebody in charge of him. And I can't even explain all the way how that works or why it works the way that it works. Like. But currently the. The demons and the devil run the earth.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. They're the prince of the air.

[Pastor Britt]

And so there's something. Things, Someone's. Whatever you want to call them, behind everything that we experience in this world. And if you don't think that they've been trying to steal, kill, and destroy you for 10 generations.

[Guest Pastor]

Only.

[Pastor Britt]

Only for 10 generations. Like, I think about that a lot. Like, I. I don't think that there was a foreknowledge that. That the demons knew Vinky was going to be born in 19. Whatever, 83, 84. And your name and your Social Security number. However, there was a Vinky lineage, and they were planting seeds and they were trying to destroy them. And they also know how Generational sin and habitual sin works through generations. And they also know how uniquely in every generation to cast the right lures in the right water at the right time. And that's the whole. Be on watch, man. There. There's a lion out there seeking to devour. And I know he's talking to elders, but it applies.

[Guest Pastor]

And in John 10:10, it's the only thing he wants to do. At no point does the enemy only want to entertain you. So if he is entertaining you and it seems like harmless, innocent fun, it is just a part of his strategy to kill, steal, and destroy you. That's it.

[Pastor Britt]

You mentioned the lion, Witch and the Wardrobe. The last book, the Final Battle or the Last Battle. The Antichrist character in the Last Battle, the way that he began recruiting people to his camp before Aslan shows up in Whips Tell and finally casts him out, the way he does it is that they have this little, like, theater troupe and they dress up and they go from town to town, more or less putting on this little entertaining people and running this little production. And that's a pretty.

[Guest Pastor]

It's.

[Pastor Britt]

It's pretty real.

[Host/Interviewer]

You mentioned, you know, the demonic human trafficking. We think about the somebody with as nefarious intentions as that and the, oh, you know, I got a vacation. Like, well, come with. Come with this vacation. Or it starts off with very cloaked, right? Like, say that that's how Satan works.

[Pastor Britt]

You think about when Jesus, like, hey, Jesus teaches how to pray. One of the things he says is lead us not to temptation, like, protect us from the evil one. He puts this in. Like, when you say words to God, include these. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of a thing right

[Guest Pastor]

up there with eating, right?

[Pastor Britt]

It is.

[Guest Pastor]

You want to stay alive. Here's some things you need to pray. You need to honor God, you need to forgive, you need to have your daily provisions, and you need protection from the devil

[Pastor Britt]

that'll preach.

[Host/Interviewer]

They come down. There's a. I think it might be a literary term in media resources.

[Guest Pastor]

Tell us more.

[Pastor Britt]

Rewind, Professor Viny. Rewind. Spell it for me.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's Latin. I think in med.

[Pastor Britt]

The spelling be. When you were young.

[Host/Interviewer]

I did not do spelling be, but it means in the middle of the action, you, like, started a movie. And then, like, you're like, what the heck is happening? Because they're like, it's the middle of a fight or something. And then it says three minutes earlier or whatever. So they come down. It's what it feels like is like there's this commotion that's how I imagine it because there's arguing and somebody's like, what's happening? And nobody answers. But then the crowd's like, we did this. And, and this man comes forward and I want to talk a little bit about how this dad is a model. You said he brings his real self to the real Jesus. So how, how is he a model for us in, in how we should pray or, or what we should bring to God.

[Guest Pastor]

So we, as much as we theologically ascribe to that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone. We often bring a works based posture to God, like, he just asked for a favor. If you can, can you help us? He doesn't make a deal at all. There's nothing that he can bring. He truly comes poor in spirit. And even his confession of his prayer is like, you know, because he's like, well, if you, if I can, I'll think it's possible for the one who believes. And it's like, yeah, about that. I mean, I can't. I sort of do, but I also don't. So can you help me with that too? That's very different. Because think about it. I mean, people will, you know, they've got some sort of financial thing coming up in their life and then all of a sudden they're like, you know what? We should be more generous at church somehow thinking that'll put them in a better position for God to hear their prayer. Or I'll be more committed in my Bible reading because I want God to do something for me. It really is. We kind of go this quid pro quo thing with God. Like, if I do my part, will you do your part? And that's not what he does. He's just a broken, desperate man with his worst nightmare is true man. The devil's trying to kill his boy every day of his life. When he says that, he seizes him and throws him into water or into a fire. I mean, when we first time, we were walking around the Sea of Galilee and they were talking about the open fires everywhere because of the cooking, you know, I was like, oh, that's when it hit me. I mean, the dad is saying, every step of my boy's life the enemy's trying to kill him. And he's just saying, have mercy on us. Not if I do my part, will you do your part?

[Pastor Britt]

You mentioned tonight, but it's the same as the woman, the Canaanite woman.

[Guest Pastor]

Yep.

[Pastor Britt]

She's like, lord, help me.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, that's it.

[Pastor Britt]

You know, Lord, that that prayer is near to the heart of God.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Lord, help me, yeah. And he wants to.

[Guest Pastor]

He wants to.

[Pastor Britt]

And he's near to the brokenhearted man. He's not, dear. He's not. He opposes the proud, but gives his grace himself to the humble.

[Guest Pastor]

I heard some Scottish pastor that. I can't remember his name.

[Pastor Britt]

I'm sorry.

[Guest Pastor]

He was really smart and, and he was talking about how if people, prayer and faith are almost like a ball, like a basketball or something. And it's like faith is the inside and prayer is the outside of the same thing that what prayer is is the outside of faith, because that's what you're doing. And again, I mean, at the end, when if you mash together Mark 9 and Matthew 17 and the disciples are like, how come we couldn't cast it out? And he's like, well, you got to pray if you just have faith the size of a mustard seed, right? So it's not even the amount of faith you have. It's the object of your faith that matters. So whatever little tiny bit of mustard seed faith you have, it's kind of like the fish in the loaves. We don't have enough to feed these people. And Jesus is like, you know what? That's plenty enough for me if you just take whatever little bit of faith you have and bring it to me. That's what this dad does. And I think a lot of times we see faith like a scale, you know, and we've got our circumstances on one side, and we're trying to have more faith to. To be weightier than our circumstances. And this guy's saying it's not really. The scales aren't working out good for me because I'm here. I mean, faith moved me to come see you and ask, but my boy, literally, right now, my boy's writhing around convulsing. So, I mean, he's. He's in a moment of like, oh, my, what am I going to do? If you can please help us.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, he. He really demonstrates incredible honesty and humility and self awareness. Like, he's just. I got nothing else, you know, not making, making excuses. How often do we do that in our. I mean, your prayer life with God? You think, oh, I'm managing good or bad behavior or thinking about God's thoughts about me in some other way besides just. He sees it all, he knows it all, and I just need him. You know,

[Guest Pastor]

I pray before I preach. These are my kind of prayers. Not only like, I believe, help my unbelief, but like, Lord, if you don't show up, this is going to be a waste of everybody's time. Can you please speak? You know, and again, my faith has driven me to be prepared and to study and to work and to try to have illustrations. But if the spirit of God does not illuminate his word in the lives of people, then man, what a waste of time it'll be. So. But there's. If you've ever preached, you know the feeling of, I mean it's kind of a desperate feeling, you know. I do know and yeah it is and I take it very seriously. But, but, but, but on a Tuesday I don't necessarily pray with that same kind of intensity like going into a staff meeting. You know, it's those where I can way more feel like, well I got this. I've been doing this a long time. I can tell everybody what they need to do.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah, it's a weird needle to thread right with. And maybe it's. There's only one right way. But when you go a long time and God proves himself faithful in an area of your life over and over and over and over and over again and he demonstrates through you through the gift mix that he's given you and the natural competencies that for lack of a better word, you are very competent in this thing. The areas where you're competent, it's easy to get comfortable and those are the areas where it's easiest in my life at least to take my eye off dependency. Where I feel most competent, I feel least dependent.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. Does that make sense except in preaching?

[Pastor Britt]

Yes, a hundred percent.

[Guest Pastor]

Something weird.

[Pastor Britt]

100. Preaching is unique.

[Guest Pastor]

You stand, you're like standing.

[Pastor Britt]

That's. I'll say that more in relation to your like Tuesday afternoon 100.

[Guest Pastor]

Like if I'm doing a. If you're interviewing me for a conference and pastors are asking questions about how to run church. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm just. And I feel like I tapping into the 30 some years of experience. Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

And there's something to the like here I am. Send me, I'll go wherever and I'll do you know what I mean? And, but there is a different desperation around standing alone on that stage or in a room and even get about the stage but in a room with people holding this book up and it's like so I don't know exactly how to get all that together in my head. You know what I mean? It's like I know that that comes with more seriousness.

[Guest Pastor]

A couple of other preparing sometimes has led me to places of desperation. You know, because you do. I've read a lot of books and practice a lot of techniques and there's some times where you're just like, lord help me. You know, sometimes marriage can be that way. You know, like you're just not connecting and you're like, what is, what is going on here? Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

Those are some areas where you just, you know, I rarely feel confident.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

You get what I'm saying.

[Guest Pastor]

The hard thing about parenting is you've never done it with this one at this age.

[Pastor Britt]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

No matter how long you like, there's no who's an expert on parenting because like no kids are the same.

[Pastor Britt]

It isn't super weird when you get insecure as a parent, you're like, I'm the parent.

[Guest Pastor]

Oh yeah, totally. You know what I mean?

[Pastor Britt]

Like, why am I, why do I, why am I trying to figure out what my kid's feeling right now about me?

[Guest Pastor]

You know what I mean?

[Pastor Britt]

Like, it's the weirdest thing.

[Guest Pastor]

As much as you preach about it, you, you still want them to like you because you like them so much. You love him so much. You want them to like be close to you. And then when you realize you might be the problem that is creating the barrier, like, well, crap, that's not what I wanted to do. Same thing with your marriage. You know when you're just in that. When you're just your, your lives are askew and you're like, what is happening here?

[Pastor Britt]

I think that's part of what the seriousness as I'm kind of just working this out with you right here. It's like if I'm in a meeting on a Tuesday at 2 o' clock about put out like a check in process or whatever. Yeah. Like does it matter? Of course. Yeah. Do all your work unto the glory of God with seriousness and. Right. But if we get that wrong, it's going to be pretty easy to fix. But if I, if I get this wrong,

[Guest Pastor]

that's back.

[Pastor Britt]

The ripple effects are far more serious

[Guest Pastor]

and you'll stand before long given account for every word. And if you're a teacher, even more than whatever that verse means.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah. And I don't think preaching and parenting are the same thing, but I think there's a, like, if I get parenting wrong.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, here's the thing though. Okay.

[Pastor Britt]

Which I'm getting. I mean I'm, I'm swinging and missing on the regular. You're trying not to strike out.

[Guest Pastor]

You're a big, you're a big Boss here at 11:22 and you have at this point by this point, you've surrounded yourself with a lot of people you like. But if that group of people don't like you, you can get more people. I mean, through a series of decisions, you can be like, this ain't the right people. I don't have the right team. I'm gonna get a new team. You can't get new kids. What are you gonna do, start over? Like, you see what I'm saying?

[Pastor Britt]

Sure.

[Guest Pastor]

Like, these are your kids. God may or may not have picked that team because you had a lot to do with hiring the people that you decide to surround yourself with to accomplish what God has given you to accomplish.

[Pastor Britt]

Pinky heard all mine.

[Guest Pastor]

I know at this point, but. But you know what I mean, right? Like, there. There's kind of a little bit of a. Like, you're not living and dying by these people. Yes, you love them and you serve them, and you want to be honorable to people and all that, but these are your kids, dude. These are your kids. And of all the parents in the whole world that God entrusted with the lives of these humans, he entrusted you with these humans.

[Host/Interviewer]

That's a really fascinating observation. I mean, think about the first time you drove a car. It's like, wow, this is hard. But then you did it again.

[Pastor Britt]

You did.

[Host/Interviewer]

And now you've done it a thousand times. Or the first time you traveled to a certain city, and now you've been there a lot of times. You're literally doing all this. The first time, only one time.

[Guest Pastor]

You know, Every time.

[Host/Interviewer]

Every time.

[Pastor Britt]

It's crazy.

[Guest Pastor]

We have a 20 year old son. This is. I've never parented a 20 year old young man before.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

I think it's a very appropriate prayer in parenting, you know. Lord, help me. Help me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Pastor Britt]

Lord, help me. Help me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Pastor Job, we. We did not quite get to that verse. You just mentioned the very end of a 20 and. And 21 of chapter 17. So I just wanted to ask before we're done, it says, they're asking him, why could we not cast it out? And he says, because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you. So unpack that a little bit because we didn't get to it.

[Guest Pastor]

I think ultimately, you know, Mark 11 also talks about this, and I think in the fullness of what Jesus is talking about, that's when he curses the fig tree. That's where Mark 11:22, 11, 22 comes from. And Jesus answered, have faith in God. And he says, and you will say to this mountain, move. I think he's pointing at Mount Zion in that context in Mark 11, I think he's saying, you see that mountain over there where they do all the sacrifices? And they're jacking them right now. And tomorrow morning I'm about to go in there and make a whip and flip over tables because they've turned the. The house of prayer into den of thieves, you know, and after the weekend, you're not even going to need that mountain. I think he's. He's kind of speaking hyperbole here. You know, it is the, like the, the things that seem impossible, like moving a mountain, are possible with God. So like this dad, or like the disciples see a demon possessed boy, and they're like, well, this is impossible. And so Jesus is saying to the disciples the same thing he said to the dad. Nothing is impossible for the one who believes.

[Pastor Britt]

And I think when we read scriptures, you know, it is important to keep in context who he's talking to. And that while most things are applicable to all Christians everywhere, there are times that are. The conversation is very specific between Jesus and a group of people. And while I do think that there's a promise of faith in there and the power of faith, not that we have it, but who's our. Who our faith is in is the way you always explain it. But I do think you have to look at that specific, the mustard seed in the mountain in the context of where they're standing at the time in which they're standing, who he's talking to, what the next 10, 20, 30 years of their life's going to be in regards to, like, their faith is to say that they're at the very starting line of their faith, these disciples, is a dramatic understatement.

[Guest Pastor]

It doesn't mean you're going to get your prayer answered the way you always wanted it answered. I mean, the reason we sang the song. We sang a song called Even if. And. And one of the lines of the song is like, and even if you don't, I'm still going to have faith in you. Because the, I mean, the real mountain of our, like, the real solid foundation is that we're putting our faith in you, not in our circumstances. And so this is a part of the fallacy of the name it and claim it. The, you know, if you just have enough faith, then God owes you something as like a reward. That's not how this works. Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Britt]

It's like faith can do far more than you can imagine.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Pastor Britt]

Don't let a demon whip you.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Is this a fair way to say it? Like, you know, take away faith? There's certain things. I mean, you mentioned all these different people tonight who come with this situation, and they're like, this feels impossible. And if they're. Subtract faith from the equation, it is a lot of impossible.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, and. But when you add faith into the mix, nothing will be impossible for you.

[Guest Pastor]

Correct.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, it change. It's like. It changes the every category of impossible possible. Like.

[Guest Pastor]

And he just came off the mountain where he's talking to two guys who now live in eternity. So eternally speaking, all the mountains will be moved. Nobody will be sick. Everybody will be healed. Everybody's put their faith in Jesus. Everybody will be healed by his stripes. We have been healed.

[Pastor Britt]

Period.

[Guest Pastor]

End dot. Sometimes he decides to do it on this side. Sometimes I talked about that. You know, sometimes that's the. I believe helped me overcome my unbelief. I mean, I listed a bunch of names of people that had terrible diagnosis. Tina, Amy, Elizabeth, Ben, Lars. And they're, you know, they experienced healing. I've also got a list of people that are prayed for and they died. And, you know, in my finite understanding, trapped in chronology, I can only see what I can see. But I know that the people with faith in Jesus. I mean. And back to that testimony video, too, when that dad was like. The funeral home came, and they were like, you want us to move her? And he goes, no, I'm the dad. It'd be my greatest honor to hand my daughter to Jesus. Golly boy. But that's it. You know what I mean? But then the way they said it, they're like, she's healed.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

He said, she's doing fine. She's running the streets of gold. We're sad. That is a. That is a very biblical point of view on how to see what we see as tragedy.

[Pastor Britt]

Yeah. I text Henry, who made the video, or at least part of making it, but I was like, I think these people are angels, man.

[Guest Pastor]

No doubt.

[Pastor Britt]

Like, I. Unbelievable heroes, man. Incredible.

[Guest Pastor]

I got to talk to him in the lobby. And I was like, hey, listen, way to go. Because, you know, the blood of the lamb and the word of your testimony is going to help other people overcome. And you had to rewalk through it all again and have our whole video team in your house for a day, and you got to, like, redo the pictures and retell the dude, she just passed away in November. And then you got to experience it again when you come to church and watch it. I said, well, let me tell you what's going to happen. While I can. I don't like to use the word empathy a lot, but while I can, like, empathize or sympathize with somebody that's been through that, and we do that as pastors a lot, I've never experienced what you experience. And there's just places my words can't get to. And people are going to watch your video in light of this teaching, and God is going to speak through your story and your pain to bring healing and comfort and hope in a way that my sermon cannot. And so, not to put pressure on you, but I don't know, half million people or so are going to see it.

[Pastor Britt]

And.

[Guest Pastor]

And it's going to live forever on the Internet. And so it might be seven years from now, and some couple is going to be like, lord, help me, and he's going to lead them to your testimony video. And so when Piper is unpacking the light, momentary pain, it's not meaningless because God is going to use that, your discomfort to help comfort somebody else.

[Pastor Britt]

It's one of the things I look most forward to. Heaven, obviously, seeing Jesus, all the things, but part of the forever part of heaven is that take these prayers that were prayed tonight, take the power of that testimony video. We're going to be able to connect that and see how God used that in from person to person to generation to generation. Like, you know, when you're throwing. When you're praying over somebody, you're throwing a rock in the pond, and the ripples are just going and going and going and going and going and going and going. And we'll never know until forever the impact of that.

[Guest Pastor]

And.

[Pastor Britt]

But I absolutely believe that in heaven, we'll be able to account for the impact and the effect of the power of that testimony and just be able to sit back and cheer for God and be like, bro, you did it, man. Like, that's it. That's what it was all about.

[Guest Pastor]

You know, one of the things, I've been here long enough. I mean, I've been in Jacksonville now for 23 years. And for whatever reason, lately in the last year or so, I've been getting a lot more people come up to me to give the praise report of a previous prayer. So I mentioned two couples, Steph and Jeremiah and Danielle and Scotty, and they came walking up. They battled infertility for years. These are Allie's buddies. It just broke my heart every time. Every time I'd see them at the altar praying. I know what they're praying for. And. And we had a prayer time in the lobby. It wasn't like a prayer and anointing thing. It was a. I just prayed and I just knowing them in the lobby, whatever, a year ago or something. And then they came up and we're like, here's what you prayed for, you know? And so if that can stir the human heart the way it does, then can you imagine when, like, the great grandkid of a guy that you led to Christ taps you on the shoulder in heaven? It's like, hey, I just want to say thanks. Like, you led my granddad to Christ, and my whole family tree was different. Like, there was a legacy of faith. I think if you gave me enough time, I could hopscotch around the Bible a little bit and talk about laying down your crowns before the feet of Jesus. And I think that's what it is. I mean, the only thing you can take to heaven is people and praises. And so what if you get a jewel in your crown? Who cares? What is that going to mean? They use it as pavement up there. Gold is pavement. So, like, what's a jewel going to do? But so there's somehow. If our ultimate aim in life is the glory of God in eternal life, you'll be able to glorify him more by him allowing you to see how you have been used. It kind of stacks. It's kind of like an Amway pyramid scheme. But then you get the joy of. You've said this. It's like you wrap it up with a bow and lay it at the feet of Jesus and go, there you go.

[Host/Interviewer]

What if the jewel is like the marbles and inside out? Like it's a moment in time. And like, if you look at that, you know, you look in the jewel.

[Guest Pastor]

Oh, yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And there's like, light and stuff. But, like, in eternity, what if it's that moment, it's that prayer you prayed, it's that gospel you shared, and then that becomes a jewel in the crown. You give that all to Jesus, like, all those moments.

[Pastor Britt]

He deserves it.

[Guest Pastor]

Amen.

[Host/Interviewer]

Amen. Well, this has been a great evening. Thank you, Pastor Joby. Maybe close us in prayer. Pray for all the people and the request that we're. That God heard all of them and. Yeah. Anything else you want to share?

[Guest Pastor]

No, he does. He hears the prayers of his people and he wants to. He yearns for it. I mean, I love we'll talk about it in neighborhood nights. If you come to neighborhood nights, I'll talk about this. Revelation 8, one says, and all of heaven was hushed for 30 minutes. And in heaven, you know what's 30 minutes? It could be 3,000 years. And everything leading up to that is loud. There's, like, the breaking of seals and there's locusts, and stars are getting wiped out of the sky and trumpets are blasting and dragons are fighting. I mean, it's loud. And then God's like, hush, because the. The priests have just lit the incense of the prayers of the saints. And God's like, I'm going to listen to the prayers of my kids. And so he hears our prayers and he answers them. So let's pray. God, we thank you that by the blood of Jesus, the curtain that separated the presence of God from the people of God was ripped from the top to the bottom so that we could boldly approach your throne room through the mediator. Who is Jesus Christ to a father who's good to us and loves to give good things to his kids. God, we believe. And please help us in every area where we don't.

[Host/Interviewer]

Amen.

[Guest Pastor]

Thank you for listening to the podcast. You nailed it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

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