He Calls Sinners, Not the Righteous - Matthew S4E1

Summary

Podcast Summary: He Calls Sinners, Not the Righteous (Matthew S4E1)

Podcast: Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guests: Reverend Matt Carter, Pastor Jeff
Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode launches Season 4 with a deep dive into Matthew 9 and the story of Jesus calling Matthew—a tax collector—to follow Him. Through personal testimonies, biblical exposition, and engaging discussion, Pastors Joby Martin, Matt Carter, and Jeff unpack what it means that Jesus calls sinners, not the self-righteous. The team reflects on how the transformative power of grace shapes their stories, leadership, and church culture, highlighting the radical inclusivity of the gospel and the relentless pursuit of Christ toward the outcast.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Testimonies and the “Follow Me” Moment

Timestamps: 00:30–08:14

• The hosts share when Christ called them personally—from youth camp conversions to seasons of rebellion and return.
• Pastor Jeff recounts a vivid camp experience culminating in deep conviction and public commitment (00:30–04:47).

  "I was not in any sort of metaphysical, spiritual sense. But in my mind, I was in Galilee, 33 AD...God softened my heart. And I realized that that was for me. It counted for me if I would just receive it." — Pastor Jeff (04:05)

• Reverend Matt Carter describes accepting Christ at age 8 and the profound moment of encountering God anew through worship in college—emphasizing how he wasn’t seeking Jesus, but Jesus found him (05:01–08:14).

  "For the first time in my entire life, I sang that to the Lord. And, man, I felt in my heart a satisfaction in the deepest parts of who I am." — Reverend Matt Carter (07:53)

2. The Radical Calling of Matthew

Timestamps: 08:14–14:20

• The story of Matthew’s call as a tax collector—an ultimate outsider despised by all—serves as a metaphor for redemption.
• Discussion of the depth of ostracism associated with being a tax collector and how scandalous it was for Jesus to call someone like Matthew (11:32–13:30).

  "It would be like if the Taliban took over the United States...and then one of the people we grew up with now works for the Taliban, taking money from our family." — Reverend Matt Carter (12:40)

3. Grace, Repentance, and Self-Righteousness

Timestamps: 13:31–20:32

• Honest confessions about ongoing sin, sanctification, and the dangers of self-righteousness.
• The beatitudes (“blessed are the poor in spirit”) are unpacked, emphasizing spiritual poverty as the precondition for salvation.

  "Sin is such a big deal Jesus, the Son of God, had to die for it. And if you think you're just a little bit of a sinner, then you think you need a little bit of a savior." — Pastor Jeff (17:27)

• They stress that recognizing one’s deep need and mourning over sin is essential to experiencing real grace (18:42–20:32).

  "There’s got to be a mourning over your sin or there’s not a salvation." — Reverend Matt Carter (20:01)

4. Jesus Sees and Pursues Us Where We Are

Timestamps: 28:30–37:33

• Detailed unpacking of Matthew 9:9—what it means that “he saw a man called Matthew” (28:30–33:30).

• Exploring the Greek terms for “saw,” highlighting that Jesus fully knows, recognizes, and calls us despite knowing all our sin (28:59–33:30).

  "When he called you to himself, he not only saw all the sin that you'd already committed, he saw all the sin you would ever commit...and he called you anyway." — Reverend Matt Carter (30:52)

• God sees not just who we are but who we will become in Christ, much like a father seeing the potential in his child (35:17–37:33).

  "When Jesus looks at you, he does not see your sin. He sees what he’s going to transform you into." — Reverend Matt Carter (36:21)

5. Conviction vs. Condemnation & The Call to Confession

Timestamps: 38:37–46:54

• Drawing the distinction between conviction (from God, leading toward Him) and condemnation (from the enemy, leading to hiding).
• The gospel invites us to run to God, not from Him—with echoes of the prodigal son story (40:04–41:59).

  "The devil wants you to be defined by your scars, but Jesus says, no, no, no, you're defined by mine." — Pastor Jeff (39:35)

• Confession is central; “Protestants sometimes lose this… you don’t have to do penance, but you do need to walk in the healing Christ purchased” (42:08–45:18).

6. Mission & The Relentless Pursuit of the Lost

Timestamps: 47:01–53:05

• Christ’s pursuit is active, relentless, and personal; we’re called to join in the rescue.
• The story of the lost sheep and the response required from the church: prioritize the outcast; don’t become self-protective or exclusive (54:31–55:25).

  "Our whole mission is to now go and be a part of the rescue mission...the best way to deepen your relationship with Jesus is help people discover theirs." — Pastor Jeff (51:00)

7. Mercy, Not Sacrifice: Church Culture and Leadership

Timestamps: 55:31–67:36

• Discussion of Jesus’s command: “Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 9:13).
• Caution against drifting towards self-righteousness and religiosity at the expense of mercy towards outsiders, sharing stories of churches that missed this.

  "You cannot simultaneously look down your nose at anybody and fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith." — Pastor Jeff (57:04)

• The Church’s mission, as embodied by The Church of Eleven22: it’s a “movement for all people.” The focus is on both reaching the lost and discipling the found (57:55–60:02).

  "If the strippers get it, surely my high school kid…you talk about seeing Matthew, like their name was not their stage name. They all had two names...None of this was not their plan. They went down this road and...they thought, I can’t undo this." — Pastor Jeff (61:54)

8. Living Out Grace and The Messiness of Church

Timestamps: 60:02–68:12

• Authentic stories of both success and failure in ministering to outsiders (notably, Pastor Jeff’s story of inviting a stripper named Sunshine to church and the fallout).
• The real work of the church is messy, filled with new and imperfect believers.

  "We got brand new baby Christians all over the place and we got lost people acting like lost people." — Pastor Jeff (54:29)

9. Closing Reflections: Level Ground at the Cross

Timestamps: 67:36–68:14

• The story ends as it began: all are equally in need, whether self-righteous deacon or prostitute.

  "Whether you're a self righteous deacon or a stripper, you're all equal at the foot of the cross in desperate need of a savior." — Reverend Matt Carter (68:12)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “If you think you're just a little bit of a sinner, then you think you need a little bit of a savior.” — Pastor Jeff (17:27)
• “He was not looking for him. He found me. That’s ultimately the story of Matthew.” — Reverend Matt Carter (08:14)
• “He didn’t just die for you, he died instead of you.” — Pastor Jeff (14:18)
• “He knows all those things and chooses you in spite of it, which is so comforting.” — Reverend Matt Carter (38:38)
• “The fundamental difference to keep you out of the seat of the Pharisee is: it’s not what are you doing, it’s what can I sacrifice for you?” — Pastor Jeff (66:56)
• “There’s no credibility benefit Matthew brought to the Kingdom of God that would merit Jesus calling him. That’s grace.” — Reverend Matt Carter (26:30)

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Important Timestamps

• [00:30] Hosts share their conversion stories
• [09:03] Comparing personal stories with Matthew’s outsider status
• [18:42] Discussing the necessity of mourning over sin
• [28:30] Deep dive on “he saw a man called Matthew”—the Greek nuance
• [36:21] Jesus sees not our shame but our destiny in Him
• [39:35] Conviction vs. condemnation; Carfax analogy
• [51:00] The call to join the rescue mission and how it shapes church culture
• [61:54] Story of inviting a stripper to church; lessons in inclusivity
• [68:12] Final reflection: all are equal at the cross

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Themes & Tone

• Honest and vulnerable—hosts share personal stories of brokenness and grace.
• Biblically grounded—deep exegesis and Greek word studies illuminate the text.
• Challenging—call to self-examination for leaders and laity alike.
• Inclusive and invitational—consistent message that no one is beyond Christ’s call.
• Practical—implications for leadership, church culture, and personal discipleship.

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Conclusion

This conversation is both a deep theological dive and a personal invitation: Jesus pursues sinners, not the self-sufficient, and the Church must reflect that radical grace. Whether you identify as an outsider, an insider, or somewhere between, this episode will encourage you to see the gospel as both a challenge to self-righteousness and a comfort to the broken. The call is to run toward Jesus—and then join Him in the pursuit of others, knowing that He sees, knows, and calls us still.

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Host/Interviewer]

Welcome back, Pastor Doctor, Reverend Matt Carter today.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yeah, man. Good to be here once again with the godfather of evangelical Christianity.

[Host/Interviewer]

You do me this favor and I'll do. We're going to be at Matthew 9 today, and I know you're going to talk on this, but what's interesting is Matthew writes this book, obviously it's a gospel according to Matthew, and then tells the story about himself being called a bit in the third person. But he's. He's very spare on autobiographical details. He doesn't take this opportunity to say, let me tell you a little bit about me and my story and what it felt like when Jesus was calling me and all that. So we're going to get way into it. But what was it like for you gentlemen? Like if I say, what was the moment when Jesus walked by and said, follow me?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

What.

[Host/Interviewer]

What comes to mind?

[Pastor Jeff]

Thursday night, Camp Pine Hill Baptist Retreat Center. Sitting on a railroad tie on the other side of this little pond. Coach Lee standing up front. They the. We called him counselors. I think that's illegal to call them that now, but whatever they. We call them counselors. They reenacted the crucifixion of Christ starting at Pontius Pil. So one of the. These are all college kids with, like, togas and real torches. And Pilate says, what should I do with this man named Jesus? Everybody else crucify him. He says, I wash my hands of this. They lead Jesus down the bank of the pond because that's where we were. They threw him down, they whipped him. And somebody's in the woods clapping. Flip flops together to make whip noises. And then they get over to the other side of the pond. And you know how voices carry over water? Super good. So nobody's mic'd or anything. You hear the nails. And then they erect this cross with Jesus on it. Thieves on either side. He goes through his seven sayings, says it is finished. And the torches go out. Coach Lee stands up and says, for God so loved you. He pointed right at me. God so loved you that he sent his only begotten son. And he points back to the crosses. That whosoever, and that means you, we believe then you will not perish and have everlasting life. We sang just as I am without one plea. Just I Was so embarrassed. Like I told everybody as a Christian, I at this Christian camp. And I was cutting grass and stuff. And so at this point, I had moved over to a little stool and I wrapped my legs around it and I was like, I am not getting up. I am not going down there. But that's when I knew it counted for me. And then Coach Lee got up and said, I think there's one more. And I was like, crap, that's me. And then I walked up there and just cried. And the language we use is I asked Jesus into my heart. And I know theologically people can bang that around if they want, but I did.

[Host/Interviewer]

And he did.

[Pastor Jeff]

Amen. And he knew.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

He knew what you meant.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah. And then we all sat down and then he. Dr. I mean, coach Lee said, that's not the end of the story. Three days later, he was resurrected from the grave. And they hit a big spotlight on the cross because we, you know, we didn't. In all the justice I am and the invitation, they, everybody's off the cross. And he said, he's not on that cross now. You're also living your life. And so that was it, man.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's amazing how it can come alive. You know, I'm sure it wasn't a broad Broadway level. Terrible.

[Pastor Jeff]

I'm sure the guy was on the cross was from Furman. So he was like, it's finished. You know what I mean?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

So Grandma Shaw wrapped around it. 100.

[Pastor Jeff]

But I was not in any sort of metaphysical, spiritual sense. But in my mind, I was in Galilee. 33 AD and that's when. And I'd heard all that before, man. I grew up in Dylan, bro. Everybody knows that there's a God and you send his son Jesus down to the cross and all that stuff. But it was just like a thing out there that you could believe that it happened. And that's when, you know, I have a lot more terminology for it now. But God softened my heart. And I realized that that was for me. It counted for me if I would just receive it. And yeah, that's where I guess.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Little bit of a tangent. Something just happened that I've been talking about for a long time, but it just happened and it's on film. And so I want to document it for posterity. Is that the word?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

When I. Back in the days when I was a senior pastor, when we were looking for senior level leadership guys that I can be working with every day, Pastor Joby, I always asked him one question. Let all the smart guys ask the rest of the questions, I'd look at them, and these are guys I was going to go to war with. And I'd say, I'd ask, when's the last time that the gospel made you weep? And if they couldn't answer that, I didn't want to have them on my team. This man's 52 years old. Been doing this for 30 years. One of the most successful pastors in history starts talking about Jesus, and it messes him up. And that's why we've been friends forever. And, man, I just love that about you, brother. For me, I asked Jesus in my heart when I was 8, and I meant it. I knew what, I knew what sin was. I knew I was a sinner, and I knew I needed a savior, man. I, I, I actually got saved at a thing called Camp Sunshine in Athens, Texas, which is the same demographic as where you grew up, just a little bit distance in between. But, bro, they had this, like, li. A jar. And he's like, this is your heart before sin. And it was clear. And then here's what happened after you sin, and it turned black. You ever seen that? And then, and then, and then, like here, the blood of Jesus covers you, it turned red. And I was like, you got to be kidding me. And then, and then after he covers you with his sin, it turned clear again. And I thought maybe I dreamed it. A couple years ago. I look it up on Chat GPT. No, it's like a thing you can do with chemicals. We need to do it sometime. It's pretty cool. But anyway, I knew I needed it, and I, I gave my life to Christ and trusted in him as my Lord and Savior. But, man, I, I did what a lot of kids that grew up in church did and ran from the Lord for a long time. And it was my freshman year at A and M. When I got to A and M, I did not darken the doors of church. First semester was doing everything I thought I was missing out on in high school by trying to be a good kid and just was miserable. And it's a funny story. I don't have time to tell it today, but, man, the Lord just brought up a young man in my life that invited me to a Bible study. And I said I'd go, and. And Joby, I walked in the door of the. It was All Faiths Chapel at Texas A and M University. About 50, 60 seats. There's a guy on a keyboard. I think it might have been Sam Perry. You remember? Yeah, Yeah, I think it might have been him. It Was just a keyboard. And I grew up in a church where we never sang to Jesus. We always sang about Jesus. A mighty fortress is our God and he is. But I had never. It was a very traditional church. I had never sung to him. And I'll never forget this as long as I live. He was leading and. Lord, you are more precious than silver. Lord, you are more costly than gold. Lord, you are more beautiful than diamonds. And nothing I desire compares to you. And for the first time in my entire life. Entire life, I sang that to the Lord. And, man, I felt in my heart a satisfaction in the deepest parts of who I am and was.

[Pastor Jeff]

And.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And, man, I. I literally spoke this out loud, Joby. I said, I've been looking for this my whole life. And I started walking with Jesus right then. I never turned back. And so in many ways. And I'm going to tell you something, man. I wasn't looking for him. He found me. And that's ultimately the story of Matthew. Matthew was in the tax booth. I mean, it's a. It's a metaphorical picture of. Of his sin. And we were talking about it earlier. You know, this guy has. This guy was. You know, he was an insider. He was a Jew. But he was so hated because of the tax booth that he's now an outsider for everybody. Everybody hated his guts. And as we're going to see in this story, Jesus walks up and finds him. It's a great. It's a great picture of his calling on our lives.

[Host/Interviewer]

So to preview that or make a connection, what. Based on what we know about Matthew, what similarities are there for your. For our story of Jesus coming and saying, follow me. You know what I mean? Like, we're going to unpack it. But in what ways were you the outsider? In what ways were you trapped and what ways had you turned away?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Well, man, I. I'll say this. First of all, he's my namesake. You know, my mom, my mama named me Matthew. And everybody calls me Matt now, but my old women used to call me Matthew. And they're all gone. And I miss it, but it means gift of God. And you know, one of the things I talked about in the sermon, that for me, you know, Pastor Joby, one of the. One of the reasons I believe in God, and there's a lot of reasons, but one of them is this book right here.

[Pastor Jeff]

And I.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Man, I've been reading this for a long time. I've been studying it for a long time. I got a doctorate in it. And I'm telling you every Stinking time. I sit down and get quiet enough. The Lord speaks to me. I hear his voice, number one. But I see things that I've never seen. And I've read that verse a hundred times. And one of them that I talked about in the sermon I just think is so powerful is when first of all is what you said earlier. And I think we ought to talk about this in a minute. But man, he's in. This is chapter nine we're talking about here. This is the guy that wrote the book. And the first time he mentions his calling is in chapter nine. I don't know about y', all, but if I'm writing the gospel, yeah, I'm starting off with this story. Hey, I have credibility to write this because Jesus called me. He doesn't. It's a one sentence statement in chapter nine. So I thought that was powerful. The point is he, he's making it all about Jesus. But man, he's literally in the phone book or the, the tax booth rather of his sin when Jesus finds him. And that is what I just shared. That's my story, man. I wasn't looking for Jesus. I wasn't sitting around thinking, man, I need my life changed. I definitely wouldn't sit around thinking that I was going to be a pastor. It was the farthest thing from my mind. But when I was in the tax booth of my sin, Jesus came and found me. And I'll be forever grateful.

[Host/Interviewer]

If you watch the Chosen.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yeah, they.

[Host/Interviewer]

When the first season, when it sets everything up, they do such a great job of making you feel how he's out ostracized, you know, like people give him dirty looks and he's got the sweet house and everything hard is right next to him.

[Pastor Jeff]

And we've underplayed what it means to be a tax collector. I mean, you guys know this. So it'll be review for those of us around this table. But it doesn't just mean he worked for a pretty decent government and he took a little off the top. That's not what it is. The Roman Empire has overtaken Israel. And then you could buy into the tax system and essentially sell out your own people. Take money from your family, an extended family, give it to the Roman government, and then the Roman government tyrannized your family. I mean, Jesus is not the first person to get crucified, dude.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

I mean, they're crucifying people. It was, it was the primary deterrent because how do you, how do you rule from England to India? Yeah, Fear. If you get out of line, we will kill you. And so, I mean, it would be like setting up a lemonade stand, giving the proceeds to Osama bin Laden on September 12th in downtown New York City. Yeah, it ain't gonna go good for you, man.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

It'd be even worse than that. It would be like if the Taliban took over the United States.

[Pastor Jeff]

Correct.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And then one of our friends, one of the people we grew up with, now works for the Taliban, taking money from our family.

[Pastor Jeff]

Correct. And then they use that money to, like. They'd killed your uncle. Your cousin was missing, and you're pretty sure that the Roman soldiers took him out. It's that. I mean, dude. So when Je. You know, all throughout, Matthew will talk about the tax collectors and sinners, that doesn't just. And even the word sinner is. It's. It's almost always. It's like. It's like the. The ultimate sociological outcast. Often times, it's people that were sinning in sexual immorality, that were prostitutes or things like this. And the religious people were like, what are you doing?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

So another story about my sanctification, not my salvation. About three years. So I got saved that night, came home on fire for Jesus, threw away half my clothes with my, like, rock bands on them. And I had four T shirts, a Lord's gym, you know, those kind of, like, FCA T shirts.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Jam for the Lamb.

[Pastor Jeff]

I wore them every day. I was the guy, like, my last couple years of high school that were. I mean, you know, then I go to college and lose my ever loving mind and just didn't handle freedom well. And, you know, and. And was trying. And I completely lived a duplicitous life, and it was miserable. Yep. Then Coach Lee asked me to come and be the camp pastor.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Oh, man, I didn't know that, bro.

[Pastor Jeff]

And I was like, thank God there was no social media or. Because I was not. I was disqualified. I should have said no, but I was like, I'd love to. So I get to camp, start preaching. First of all, you're so insulated. Like, you're just. I live out in the woods in this little cabin with, like, 12 kids at a time. I just had a bunk with a little bit of stuff under it. Whatever. Well, so I had Coach Lee's job. I would be the guy that stand up at the campfire and be like, for God so loved you, you know, And I would do the invitation and all that stuff. Well, the guy that played one of the soldiers got sick, and so for two weeks, he couldn't do the campfire reenactment of the crucifixion. One week I played Jesus. And I remember, like, when I always say, he didn't just die for you, he died instead of you. I can remember going through that thing, and they're doing the nail, and they're doing all the stuff, and I have to say the seven sayings of Jesus. And I remember thinking, this should have been me. What am I doing? I am not living like this actually mattered in my life. The next week, another guy played Jesus. I probably didn't do it good enough. And so I was the Roman soldier doing the nails. And what we would do is we'd lay the guy down, and we had, like, an anvil and a hammer, and we would hit that thing. I remember my buddy's hand is right there, and I'm hitting next to it and all. Every time I hit it, I could just see the things I was doing in college, you know, And I was like, holy, what am I doing?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Wow.

[Pastor Jeff]

You know, And I. And. And so, I mean, I shift a significant gear. When I came home, I. That was my sophomore year of college. So I get home, and we had these dumb business meetings. I don't know, my attorneys, they ain't got no business, but you haven't had these business meetings. And so I opened it with a confession and repentance of just me. Just like, guys, I have claimed to be a Christian, but I have not been following Jesus in the way I've treated myself and others and you. And I'm sorry. And it was that. So it was that moment. It was that, like, you know, just being, like, a little bit player in this play. Like I said, when I got saved, I felt like I was an actual Roman soldier. And it was my sin that was nailing Christ to the cross, and I was still gladly participating in it. And then there was regret and remorse, but there had yet to be a repentance in some significant areas of my life.

[Host/Interviewer]

I want to ask about what you just said, but I think it is true. If you look up the testimony of, like, Jim Caviezel or. Oh, yeah, actors who have portrayed Jesus and the weight and crazy stuff that they go through, they feel when they're taking that on. I mean, it is. It is wild. I mean, just the set of the Passion of the Christ alone, the. The amount of things that happen is.

[Pastor Jeff]

Well, you know, who nailed the nail in Passion of the Christ?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

Mel Gibson. Nobody would do it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

And he's like, I'll do it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And you can kind of recognize the big beefy hands, you know, if you.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, dude, seen Braveheart, you know, that's it, though. That. That's it. Like, because here's what happens all the time. All right, so when we get in this next section, like, verses 10 and following the tax, the. The Pharisees are like, why are you hitting with those people? Right? Okay. And that matters a ton. It matters a ton because I came for the sick, not the well. And you think you're well. That. That's how I know your heart is sick. And when pastors like us, as we should, scream grace from the top of the roof and from the mountaintop, as we should, that. What you can't do, though, is diminish sin. Like, sin is such a big deal. Jesus, the Son of God, had to die for it. That's what a big deal it is. And if you think you're just a little bit of a sinner, then you think you need a little bit of a savior. But if you know that you deserve hell because you have willfully committed treason against the eternal king, then you realize the death sentence is just for you. I also think I keep going back to at the beginning of Jesus Teaching Ministries. Blessed are the poor in spirit. That's what that means. When you look at that cross and you think, that should have been me, you know, you're not diminishing your sin.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

It's literally what I just wrote down. Blessed are the poor in spirit. You just talked on it. You just preached on it a while back, you know, for those folks that are watching, that didn't miss that. That. That Greek word that Jesus uses, patakas. It means completely and utterly impoverished. There's a couple of words in the Greek language that Jesus could have used. One is a word. I can't remember the Greek translation of it, but it basically means college poor. You know how when you were. You were poor in college, but you could. You could scrounge in the. In the cushions of your couch and find 50 cents and go to Taco Bell and buy 10 tacos or whatever. That's not the word Jesus uses. It's patakas. It's utterly, completely impoverished. Think baby on the side of a road, can't walk, can't talk, can't provide for himself. Jesus said, blessed are the. Those who realize their spiritual condition is that for you will turn and reach to the Savior who will save you. But you remember what second one is bless those who mourn, you know, and. And the word used there specifically is talking about Sin. Blessed are those who mourn over their sinful nature.

[Pastor Jeff]

Correct.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

For then you will turn to the Savior to make you righteous. And so that's what you're just describing.

[Pastor Jeff]

Go one more. The meek doesn't mean weak. It means bit bridled horse. So blessed are you. Turn the reigns of your life over to the Savior.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

There's got to be a mourning over your sin or there's not a salvation.

[Pastor Jeff]

Correct. Yeah. What you need for salvation is need and the fair. The difference between the sinners and the tax collectors and as a group and the Pharisees is they didn't think they needed a Savior because they were doing it good. And if you declare yourself righteous, by definition, you're self righteous. And if you declare yourself depraved, then you know that you need to be made righteous.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

The. The thing that happens right afterwards is criticism because Jesus is hanging around with Matthew's friends. What. What did your fraternity folks say when you did that? I mean, did. Was there a response of, like, repentance or were they like, this is weird, or.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, it was like, no. I was like, no, that's cool. I've. For whatever reason, I've always had influence. So I started a Bible study in my room. Some guys started showing up, but honestly, when that really took off so, you know, one of the things in my own. For my own sanctification and wisdom purposes, I decided I'm not going to parties anymore. But I was like, head of security for my fraternity, whatever that means, And. And I. And I didn't drink. And so I was the only sober one at these party, me and my roommate, and I lost it on a guy in my fraternity. And I didn't, like, beat him to a pulp, but I embarrassed him in front of everybody, and kind of like, you know, he kind of got my face. I put him down. And it wasn't like hospital or anything like that, but it was, you know. And then the following week, I was like. And I was the president of the attorney, too. So I just got up there and said, hey, I need to repent. I'm. Man, I'm a work in progress. And I am so sorry, bro. I had about two or three guys in that Bible study that were already Christians for the. For, like, almost the whole semester when I started back. And then after that, it jumped to 19 guys, and 11 of those guys got saved. Because. Because at first I was kind of coming with this. Like, I know better than y', all, and if you would just listen to me, you wouldn't be such idiots. And you could be like me. It was when they saw what I did, when I screwed up, not that I didn't screw up. And for that, shouted the gospel louder than, hey, I'm back, and I don't drink anymore, and I don't go to parties, and I don't. I'm not going to do the things I used to do. That didn't really impact anybody that much at all. It was actually showing people what the gospel. The gospel doesn't save you. The God doesn't only save you, but it continuously saves you and sanctifies you and refines you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

And you got to take up your cross daily. And the life of the Christian is that of daily repentance. So it began to get way more traction then than when I, you know, when. Because I was. I kind of came back more like a Pharisee did.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Were you discipled in. In that first year? Was anybody discipling you?

[Pastor Jeff]

So part of my tragedy of my story is the only Bible studies I've ever been around. I've been in charge of every one of them. So every. I mean, like, similar stories. So, you know, by the time I got to camp, I didn't even live as a teenager. I didn't live in that. I'd moved from Dylan. So I would get there, I get saved. And every summer I'd go back, I would, like, roll in a super Christian, you know. And then in college, I mean, when I came on staff, I came on as, like, I was in charge of the Bible studies, and I was always in charge of everything. And Coach Lee did not have a discipleship process. His discipleship process was boy, getting the truck. So he would just. He would just make me do stuff with him, you know, but never did I sit down. I think this is before we started recording. You're talking about sitting down with your daughter. And y' all were working through Ephesians together, doing the soap process. Right? You read the scripture, you make your observation, your application and prayer never, ever, ever. So I. So in college, at the church that I volunteered at, so I started volunteering, and in about three weeks, I'm teaching Wednesday nights. And the. The lady that was in charge of the youth group, she was incredible. Her name is Lynn Turner. She was incredible. But she had administrative gifts, and she also knew if we're going to reach high school boys, we need like, a somebody like me to be the guy on stage doing the Bible studies. All right? But I would. Our. Our church was heavy on, like, education, you know, that's what we called it then. But. And so they would have all these classes. Like the lead pastor, senior pastor would do like a 10 week class on the Lord's Prayer and I would sign up and go. Average age in the room is 69. And I'm 9, 18. And I would just be in there and 19 years old. And so it wasn't until then that I. Anybody ever like, started walking you through it.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Our stories are super similar. I get saved out of the blue. Nobody's discipling me, right. The, the first time I even got even remotely discipled was I dated a Christian girl for the first time and she took me to church and the guy was preaching the B, you know, from the stage. But, you know, it's interesting, I didn't have. And the reason I asked you that question is because I was in the core cadets at A M. I wasn't in a fraternity. So I get radically saved, called back to Jesus. I go back to my court dorm and people are like, what happened to you, man? Like, you're not drinking, you're not chasing girls, like, what's going on? I didn't know how to articulate to them, right, that I had been changed. All I know is that I'd been changed and matter of fact, I didn't lead any of them to Christ. And. But what's fascinating, man, is that we've kind of all stuck together. We're on a text thread, we talk every day. That's cool, every day. And now that we're all in our 50s, they're starting to come to the Lord by, by looking at my life. They're seeing a difference in my marriage, they're seeing a difference in the way the kids. And they're starting to reach out to me and go, okay, talk to me about this. And one day I was. One morning, I was preaching at 11:22 on marriage and I thought, man, if I'm ever gonna, if I'm ever gonna do this, yeah, do it now. So I put up the, the live stream and they all watched it.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And they couldn't get their brains around that, that I was talking like that. But then they found this guy named Pastor Joby Martin. Like that dude's jacked anyway, man. All that to say, God's good, he's faithful. But looking back, it's very similar to Matthew, to answer your question. And there is. There was no credibility benefit whatsoever that Matthew brought to the kingdom of God that would merit Jesus calling him, which is fascinating if you were making this whole Thing up. You would never call the tax collector to be one of the guys to write the Bible.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

You know, we have a very divided political party system in our country. And so if you're a liberal, you know, conservatives don't like. If your conservatives liberal don't like you, but at least half the country likes you. If you're one of the other, you're a tax collector, nobody likes you.

[Pastor Jeff]

Right.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And. And yet Jesus walks straight up to this guy and says, follow me. The only explanation for that is it

[Pastor Jeff]

happened and Jesus didn't put him in charge of the money. This is a guy that's an expert in money and that's not even what he's used for. He puts Judas in charge of the treasury. He's the worst. It's crazy, right?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

That. It's back to what you said. Like a huge part of the evidence of the reality of Jesus is this word we have in front of us.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Pastor Jeff]

Because this is not the story you would make up.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And you and I's lives are great examples of that. There's no business we get to do what we do apart from the Lord.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, if you're familiar with Jesus's methods, this phrase follow me comes up quite. I mean, he used it when he called the first disciples, follow me. I'll make you fishers of men. I think of the restoration of Peter. When he's restoring him, he says, follow me. You know, so, Pastor Matt, I want to ask you, what's the significance of that phrase? And maybe even before that, he sees him there. You know, you talked about that too. What does it mean that Jesus sees him where he is? He can see through all his defenses and he still says come.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, remind us of the different Greek words.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yeah. And so I'm going to let Pastor Joby deal with follow because he does it better than anybody I've ever personally heard. And so I'll let him deal with that. But let's talk about what happened right before that. And to me, this is when I was preparing for this. I had never preached on the calling of Matthew before, and this stopped me in my tracks. It's in man. It's in Matthew 9. 9. And it says, as Jesus passed from there, he saw a man called Matthew.

[Pastor Jeff]

And.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And I was looking, looking at that, and I thought, I wonder if there's any significance to. To. He saw. Didn't say walk past, didn't say spoke to. It says he saw everywhere in the Bible is there for a reason. Holy Spirit, you know, led Matthew when he was writing that to write that. And this is exactly what happened. And so I look it up, and there's at least three Greek words for. For the word see that I. That I'm aware of. And one is. It means to notice or glance at. That's not the word that. That Matthew writes down. It's not like Jesus was walking by and noticed Matthew. The other one is. Is a little bit more engaged. It's a word that means to observe. You know, I could. I can observe you wearing a white hat, wearing a green jacket, that you have a beard, because I'm studying you to some extent. That's not the word that the math uses. The word that he uses there in that sentence is a word that means to recognize and fully know. And so literally, what Matthew writes is, as Jesus passed by from there, Jesus saw me. And what he says, but what he means by that is Jesus saw and knew everything about me. That's fascinating, Pastor Joby. I. I wrote a book back in the day on. On the Prodigal Son, and I did some research on why millennials were leaving the church. And they're not leaving the church anymore, but they were. They were seven, eight years ago. And Barna came up with some statistics that stated that one of the. One of the primary reasons that millennial men, especially, were leaving the church is they felt like they were unworthy of being at the church, going to church because of the way that they'd sinned. They looked at their own life. They looked their failures, and they're like Jesus. They had not stopped believing in Jesus. They thought Jesus had stopped believing in them. And that statement right there, as Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man named Matthew. Just dismantles that whole concept, man. When he. When he called you to himself, he didn't. He not only saw all the sin that you'd already committed, he saw all the sin you would ever commit. He knew all the ways you were going to mess up and fail and fall short of the glory of God. And he called you anyway. And we can get into it later, man. But there's some significance there about the term Matthew. A lot of theologians believe that as he's sitting there in the tax booth, his name is Levi, which means connected to the old covenant, really is what it means. But Jesus walks by and he sees. He doesn't see Levi. He sees Matthew. He sees what he would become. And so, man, talk about that, Pastor Joby. This idea that the Lord, before he calls us, knows everything about us. Calls us anyway.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, there's a couple of things. I think a lot of people are kind of asking that question, like, do you see me? Like, I think that's a part of the growth of social media, you know what I mean? Like, I just want somebody to notice me, see me. And God really does. And honestly, it's like a fire, dude. Fire is unbelievably dangerous and incredibly inviting at the same time. We all have spent a lot of time around campfires, right? Nobody looks at each other, everybody's just staring into the fire.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

That's right.

[Pastor Jeff]

That's the presence of God. On the one hand, it's terrifying. You mean like he sees everything. We had one of our elders one time at an elderly prayer and he said something that changed him is he had some sin in his life and he was hoping God would not see that. Meanwhile, he's begging God for blessing, like in his business and his marriage. And it just dawned on him, like, you dummy, what do you. He sees it all. So on the one hand it's terrifying, but, but the only reason it's not is because he chooses us anyway. It's exactly what you're saying. The example I use is if you ever bought a used car, you run a carfax and God has run a carfax on you and it comes back not good, busted, leaks oil, you know, out of alignment, needs a new transmission, needs everything new. And God says, I'll pay full price and then I'm going to start the restoration project from the inside out.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And that's it. Is the beautiful thing when he sees Matthew, not Levi, he doesn't see who you are in the moment.

[Pastor Jeff]

He calls you 100%.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

He sees who he's going to transform you in into becoming.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, I talked about this a little bit. I think on the second week when he calls the fishermen, the beauty of an everlasting all knowing God is he doesn't merely see you where you are, he completely does and meets you there. But he sees who he had in mind when he right created you. So the, the fishermen for sure were failed out Hebrew students. They could not make it to the Talmudine level because I think it's. Is it bet Safar first or Bet Rash thinks Bet Shafar? Betman rash. And at the end of Betman Rash they would say if you didn't have what it takes to become a Talmudin, to become a follower of a rabbi, most often what, what rabbis would say is congratulations, you love Yahweh, you know the scriptures, now go and learn the trade of your Father. And these fishermen are fishing with their dads, which means they're the jv, they're the B team, they're the. You got cut. You don't have what it takes. And when Jesus sees them fishing, he's like, I haven't wasted one moment of your life. Follow me and I'm gonna make you fishers of men. And. And actually, Jesus does something very unique. He goes and recruits. He doesn't receive applications, which also says a lot about the nature of our salvation. You said it before. I was not looking for him. He was looking for me. So Jesus is not the Ivy League school where you put your resume together and say, will you please accept me? Jesus is a recruiter that goes out and finds his team and puts it together. And like the Bible says, man sees the outside, but. But God sees the heart.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And so I. The story that using the sermon is, talk about my son. You've met my son Sammy, my youngest son. When he was little, we called him Big Chungus. And because my oldest son was the. Was the rock star, the golden child, valedictorian, all state quarterback, beautiful. And Sammy was 11, going through his awkward phase when JD was going through the golden child phase. And I'll never forget, man, I. I walked into his room one day and Big Chungus was sitting on a bed just crying, man. And I was like, what's wrong, man? And. And he said, he said, dad, I. I'm ugly, I'm fat. I'll never be as good looking as J.D. you know, girls are never gonna like me. And I had this conversation with him, and I shared this in sermon. But, you know, he was, he was. He was dark complected. He, you know, I'm light complected. But he got that from his mama. But he. He got all the other good aspects of his mom and I. And I could see who he was going to become.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And I had a conversation with him. I said, listen, little man, I said, I'm gonna make a promise to you. I was like, one day you're going to be better looking than J.D. and he's like, no, I'm not, or whatever. And bro, I'm gonna tell you something. That kid's like a Greek God right now, saying him. So look, for folks listening to this, it. When Jesus looks at you, he does not see your sin. He sees what he's going to transform you into. And this story is proof of that.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, I've used the example 10,000 times. But imputed righteousness. The two primary examples are the breastplate of righteousness and the robe of the Father with the prodigal Son. So if you are in Christ, what he sees is his righteousness. My favorite example of that is the breastplate of righteousness. Because you've never seen a chubby breastplate.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

That's right.

[Pastor Jeff]

They're all chiseled, even if you're chubby under it. It you put that breastplate on, you look like you could stole the gladiator.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Man, look at you, right?

[Pastor Jeff]

It doesn't match. And then what's crazy is over time, the more you walk with Jesus, he conforms what is actually under that breastplate into the image and likeness of his Son, you know, so spiritually speaking, you get that six pack and big pecs

[Reverend Matt Carter]

that's such a good. I remember you preaching that. I remember thinking, I wish I'd have thought of that. That was good. But anyway, you know, man, it's so comforting because there's a lot of folks out there that maybe wrestle. They're Christians and they're, they're fighting sin and they think, man, there's a line to which I could cross that the Lord's going to be done with me. And again, this has nothing to do with like grace over sin. Whatever. You got to fight sin with everything you are, you got to put to death. But what this is saying is that he knew all of it anyway and he still chose you. You know, think I was thinking about this, that, you know, you. There was a fight one time that my wife Jennifer and I were in about 15 years ago, and. And we both separately had the same thought and we confessed it later to each other, but in just in the moment of our. Of our greatest weakness and in the flesh, we kind of had to start like, man, if I would have known this. Oh yeah, I don't know if I would have married this woman now. I was being an idiot and she was thinking the same thing. Man, if I'd have known that about that idiot, I don't think I'd have married him. Jesus doesn't have that.

[Pastor Jeff]

That's right.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

But he knows all those things and chooses you in spite of it, which is so comforting.

[Pastor Jeff]

Well, from a feeling standpoint, this is why you have to understand the difference between conviction and condemnation. Conviction is a tool of God to draw you closer to him. See Romans 1, that it's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, but the kindness is him convicting us of our sin. It's a warm invitation to receive the warm blood of Jesus to wash away our Sin again and again. Every day. It once and for all happens, and we need to pick up our cross every day. Condemnation is one of the primary tools in the hand of the enemy that doesn't say run to God, but run from him. That you are unfit for use is literally. It's a building term. I know this firsthand because when I was in college at this fraternity house, our. Our fraternity house got condemned. And they slapped a big sticker on the front door and it said, condemned by the city of Richmond. And it just said unfit for use on it. And then it had all these details. And for the longest time, when I talk about the whispers, that's what I'm talking about. It's the lies of the enemy. I think I heard Louie Giglio say this the first time, that the devil wants you to be defined by your scars, but Jesus says, no, no, no, you're defined by mine. That's the difference between conviction and condemnation.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's funny you say that, because as we're talking about being seen by God, we have this great need to be seen by him, and it's so deep. And also our friend Charles Martin will say that the strongest wound you can have is rejection. And so think about the Garden of Eden. When they sin against God, they go hide. And so they're like, don't. Don't see me. So we have this fear. My son was playing basketball. He's 10, and it's one of these basketball leagues where they're not really playing. You know, it's just kind of like. And I hated it because, you know, I'm like, just teach them to play the game. They're just out there, you know, they're just right when you want. There's one kid, and this kid's the worst, and his parents are the worst. And I'm like, I've never wanted to hit a kid or a parent more, but, you know, I was one of those guys. But even this kid, I'm watching him, he shoots the ball and then immediately does this. He looks over to his parents, no doubt, every time, like if it was

[Reverend Matt Carter]

a good shot or a bad shot.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Did you see me? Did you see that? What did you think? And I think it's just such an innate desire to be seen and to feel the approval. Like you're saying Jesus saw and approved and said, I see. I see all the things in. Even in the future, and I still accept you.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

You know, you just said something that. That unlocked something for me I hadn't thought about. You know, in the Garden of Eden, they sin and they hide in their shame. But here, if you notice in the one sentence that Matthew talks about himself, he said as Jesus passed by from there he saw a man called Matthew. And then he calls out his old self sitting in the tax booth. He didn't have to say that. I'd have hid that. I don't think I would have mentioned that. And I don't. There's something there that I'm smart, not smart enough to figure out. Is that when you realize that Jesus called me in the worst moment of my life, you don't have to hide anymore.

[Pastor Jeff]

That's right, talk.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

You're smarter than me. Does that unpack anything? Like, see what I'm saying? He, he, he, he admits, calls out

[Host/Interviewer]

to Adam and Eve, right?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

When they're hiding, they're hiding from him.

[Pastor Jeff]

The essence, if you begin to, if you have this feeling, oh no, I've screwed up, don't tell dad, right? You don't understand the gospel if you think, oh, somebody called dad, I need help, I've screwed up. That's the gospel. And the Gospel compels us to run to him and not from him 100% because he already sees he's already placed his approval on you. So if we can, the more we can lean into that, then the more likely we are to confess and repent instead of run and hide. Listen, Protestants man, and I'm super pro Protestant, you know, progn of the Reformation. We got back to the shout out to my boy Martin Luther, you did some stuff man, but on in the Reformation, in order to not be Catholic. Some things we lost in the Protestant experience. And confession is a big part of it. Now confession and penance is a mistake, right? Because Jesus is the full and final payment. So you don't have to go pray yourself back up and give more money and all that stuff. That's dumb because there's no way you can add to the bill that is already paid in full or tetelestied. But James, the brother of Jesus, when he's like, hey, anybody sick? Here's what you do. You get the elders pray for you. Anybody cheerful, cool, you sing. Let us confess our sins to one another so that we could walk in the healing that Christ has already purchased for us. And I mean we say this all the time around here too, that Bruce Frank taught us. And we all check the sanctification boxes in the wrong, I mean, in different orders, you know. And so when we see somebody repenting, if you ever think how could they, bro, check yourself Right. You're at the party, Jesus is at the table, and you're like, what you doing hanging out with these people? We're these people and he chose us. And as Paul struggles with sin, see Romans chapter seven. I mean, it is a deep struggle between his renewed spirit, his. His brand new life in Christ and his flesh. They are at war against one another. And he's saying, and sometimes my flesh is winning. And he doesn't say, what, what am I going to do? It's not. Do better, try harder. He says, who will save a wretch like me? Yes, thank you, Jesus. And then you get to Romans 8:1. Therefore, because Jesus knew everything about me, he ran the Carfax on me, knew I was a lemon. I bring no merit to the equation. Therefore, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Let's take it one step further. If condemned condemnation is a building term. And the enemy says, because of what you've done, you are no longer fit to be used by the King. That's the lie of the enemy. In 1 Corinthians 6, Jesus comes along and says, no. Well, what you talking about? Your body is a temple. Wait, wait, what? I thought I was unfit for use, man. That's what the devil said. But actually you're not your own. You're bought with a price. I'm going to move. And the temple is wherever the presence of God resides. So the believer today is where God sits on his throne on this planet. You are simultaneously a wretched, black hearted sinner that needs a savior. Once you get saved, you're imputed with his righteousness. And the spirit of God dwells inside of you. The holiest thing you've ever encountered in your entire life is being in the presence of another believer. We warn when we do trips to Israel, which we're doing again next year. And I'm gonna anyway. Footsteps of Paul, all that stuff. One of the warnings I give people is, do not be mesmerized by these old rocks. It's really cool for you to try to get your head around. We don't believe in a story. This is an actual event. We're going to take you to an empty tomb. Like this is real. It really happened. But these are just rocks and dirt. And we get to walk by the Sea of Galilee. That is neat. Ain't nothing holy about the Sea of Galilee. The holiest thing you will encounter is your brother and sister in Christ on that bus. Because the spirit of God dwells inside of him. So God doesn't Just say now you're not unfit for use. You're okay way. He actually takes it a step further because you're not primarily just fit for use. You are a son in his family and the spirit of God dwells inside of you. The more we get our mind towards that, fixed on that the whispers of the enemy and the temptations of the devil get weaker and weaker and weaker.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Question.

[Pastor Jeff]

I mean, where's lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life go when you're like, I'm a son of God. I am. I am. The spirit of God dwells in me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I just, I can't get over, as we're talking, I can't get over this idea of a pursuing Christ. Like he's, he's pursuing, he's relentlessly pursuing. Pastor Jeff. We talk about the, the painting that we're going to spend some time with, with Neighbors to Nations. It captures this idea of Jesus chasing a lamb. I mean like, it's not, he's not passive. You're not just like, oh, I just happened to see that guy over there and like, okay, fine, come over here. No, it's, he's a, he's focused and directed towards us.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah. This fall, give you a quick little preview. Gresh and I were in Franklin, Tennessee and I was not thinking about Jesus. We asked them about cowboy boots and cowboy hats because I was trying to get me some stuff. And we go in this little store. There's like a Christian women's clothing store, which by the way, for all our lady listeners, bro, when you take your husband in those places, we feel like creeps. What are we gonna do? You just leave us. And then we're just standing there like we don't know where to go. We don't look at.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

I just walk.

[Pastor Jeff]

I do too. So anyway, so I go to the store, they sell my book. So I was like, oh, that's cool. What's up? Yeah, so I'm talking to people and they had this painting and I don't know what's going on with me. I'm putting the man in menopause in my old age. It, the whole church will see it. It's a picture in the woods of Jesus and he's kind of blurred out a little bit and he's running with great intensity at this little lost lamb.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

I saw it in your office and started balling like a 13 year old girl at a Justin Bieber concert. And I'm going to tell you what got me is the lamb's covered in Mud.

[Pastor Jeff]

Mud. Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And. And Jesus is coming after him, man. And that's us. And. And there's. There may not be. Well, that's not true. I was about to say there may not be a better story in the Bible than Matthew, but the fact of the matter is, it's the story that's all through the Bible. Peter, James, John, Paul, Paul was just doing his. Paul was killing Christians riding on a donkey down the road to Damascus. Jesus pursued him. Every single story is a story of people being stupid. And Jesus intervenes in our life, and that's why it's called the Gospel, Joby. And I think that that is why Matthew puts himself in his story, Chapter nine, verse nine. It's because he's like, look, this had nothing to do with me, right? It had everything to do with Jesus. One of the things that I did not go into in the sermon, but if we have time, we have a couple minutes here. I'd love. I'd love for us to unpack is. Is this needs to. This needs to impact pastors. I know a lot of pastors watch this podcast. It ought to impact the way you preach. It ought to impact the way you live when you realize that you had nothing to do with it. It was Jesus coming after you, saving you. I don't know. We see it in. We see it in Matthew. Here he is like, I don't even want to talk about me. Let's put the spotlight on Jesus. One things I love about 1122, I've always loved about you is that's your heart. Talk about that.

[Pastor Jeff]

Well, the ne. This. I guess this is inferred. There's not even a transition. It just says, and as Jesus reclined at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. Apparently, the moment that Matthew gets rescued, he becomes part of the rescue team. The moment. And when you, by the grace of God, never forget what you've been saved from. You just want everybody to experience what you've been able to experience. Not because you did anything to deserve it, to earn it, but he just chased you down. And so when I get up there and just plead for people to surrender to Jesus and plead for people to love him and know him, it's because

[Reverend Matt Carter]

I know you've experienced it.

[Pastor Jeff]

And then back to that picture. Theologically speaking, you're not the lost sheep anymore you were. But when he saved you and you redeemed you, theologically in the picture, you're actually the one pursuing. Because we with the spirit of God in us, we are the body of Christ. And what we are supposed to do is not just sit around all the fluffy sheep and be like, look how clean we are. Our whole mission is to now go and be a part of the rescue mission. And what's crazy about this, that, you know, we say it here ad nauseam. The best way to deepen your relationship with Jesus is help people discover theirs. So the closest you can be to Jesus is when you're on mission for him. You'll need him more. You'll realize that he's the one that saves. To the pastors, it's not your great sermons ever saved a soul, dude. It's not your slick presentation. It's not some incredible singer. It's not your lights. It's none of that. And so, like Paul says in Corinthians, he has made us ambassadors for reconciliation, not just people to people, but primarily from a traitorous race to a perfect and holy king. And that we implore people to put their hope in Christ because we know we've tasted and seen how good it is, and we want to share that good news.

[Host/Interviewer]

Verse 12, verse 12 and 13 are. Are like, you know, double punch to the face. I mean it. And doesn't it feel like a summarization? When have you ever. When can you remember reading in the Gospel, Jesus saying, go figure this out. There's only a couple of times he says, why don't you go learn what this means? I desire mercy, not sacrifice. People who don't need a doctor, don't need a doctor if they're well.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

But I.

[Host/Interviewer]

The doctors are for sick people. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Didn't you say, Pastor Joby, that somebody has seen a common thread amongst thriving churches? And it's one of the. One of the qualities that the pastor is like, I remember that I was a sinner.

[Pastor Jeff]

Somebody. Somebody else said that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

I can't remember who. Maybe it was on a. Somebody. Yeah, that. That. Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, go learn what this means. Quoting Hosea. I desire mercy and not sacrifice.

[Pastor Jeff]

So if you come to 11:22 and you stick around here a little bit and you get thoroughly disappointed with the messiness of it, please review this. It's always going to be a mess, right? There's going to be lost people acting like lost people. There's going to be saved people acting like lost people. You know, it's a mess. Chandler, our dear friend, he talks about, like, in any good family and the church as a family, there's Generations of folks, man. There's some grandparents and they got their own struggles. But you know, anybody ever seen their grandma like just overtly sin? I mean, you know, they're kind of locked down right there. And then you go all the way down, there's some babies. And you know what? You know what you get when you get babies? You get crap everywhere. There's messy diapers and whining and complaining and crying everywhere there's a baby. You cannot have a perfectly spotless clean house and have a generation of babies. I hope this place has got crap all over it all the time because we got brand new baby Christians all over the place and we got lost people acting like lost people.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jeff]

And the, the parable of the, of the, the one sheep Jesus pri. This is crazy. Church people get the feelings hurt. He prioritizes the 1 over the 99. He leaves the 99 for a time to go get the 1. And so when your heart gets wrapped around the mission of Jesus, you'll never, he won't ever have to leave you. How about this? Matthew 28. We'll talk about this a lot in the fall. Jesus gives a great commission. Right? Go and make disciples everywhere. And lo, I will be with you always. What if you're not going to make disciples? Is he with you in the sense that God is everywhere his presence is. He ain't with you with you like he's with you when you are on mission to do what he is about?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, kind of the experiencing God thing. Like yeah, watch what God's doing and join him. And he always wants to be on

[Pastor Jeff]

mission and he's doing the great he's doing it.

[Host/Interviewer]

And so you want to experience him do that too.

[Pastor Jeff]

Correct.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

You know, talking about the. He desires mercy, not sacrifice. What comes to my mind is that, you know, I think about that most churches that lose sight of the gospel will drift heavily towards self righteousness.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Works based religion, Pharisaical attitude. I think about a church that, that I was a part of for a while and, and I did not see this with my own eyes but I, I heard about it firsthand. And one of the, one of the staff daughters of this church was dating a non believer. You know, we can talk about all that all day long. But she was dating a non believer and she invited him to church and he decided he would go to church for the very, very first time in his entire life. 17 year old young man and he walked in, he walked into church and he was wearing a hat and 71 year old Deacon Walked up to him, took the hat off his head, threw it on the ground. Young man, we don't wear a house or a hat in the house of the Lord. Kid grabbed his hat, walked out the door and, and never came back. And so that's a, that's a great picture of someone that's trying to sacrifice for the Lord, do what's right in the side of Lord, and completely miss the heart of God, which is that God is going after that lost sheep right there. And that's the most important thing.

[Pastor Jeff]

Here's what I. I bet you if that 71 year old Deacon and it was his lost grandson, he would see it differently because now he sees a lost sheep because that's his grandson, you know, and he would just say, I'm just glad you're here, I hope it gets on you. But you cannot simultaneously look down your nose at anybody and fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. You can't. You have to take your eyes off of the cross to look down your nose at somebody.

[Host/Interviewer]

I wanted to ask. We're almost out of time, Pastor Joby. But this, these two verses remind me of a movement for all people to discover and deepen our relationship with Jesus. Talk about how that inspired that mission.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah, I was at this really famous church conference in 1995 and the guy who's exponentially smarter than me, better communicator than me, all those things, and he said, you got to make a fundamental decision. Are you going to keep people or reach people? And he is a primary leader in the seizure sensitive movement. We just do whatever it takes to get him in the door and hopefully God will change them. But he would even say we do this at the expense of church people or at the expense of discipleship. And it did not sit well with me. I'm like, ah, just that's not what I get when I read the scriptures, you know. And then so I'm kind of wrestling around with it. I didn't have the verbiage or whatever. And I'm watching Shrek 2 with JP when he's a little kid and I laugh at one part and JP laughs at another part. And I thought, oh, is Shrek a kid movie or an adult movie?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yes.

[Pastor Jeff]

And I remember just being, I was like, all right, well, if Pixar can pull it off, surely the spirit of God can reach people and keep people and the kept people, the one that are saved by grace, and nothing can pluck us from his hand. The more focused we are on reaching People and get them on the rescued side with a focus on being on the rescue team. Jesus has built into discipleship. When you're about the great commissions like Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men. Not come follow me and we're going to do a Bible study together, we're going to sing songs. We're not going to get this world on us, but we are going to be about this Matthew Follow me, next thing. Somehow there must have been a conversation here. He's like, hey, let's do a dinner, bring all your friends. Because all of a sudden it will prevent you of being the crotchety old deacon that looks down their nose at the 17 year old kid with a hat. And instead of that, you see human beings that Jesus died for and you remember you were him.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

That's right. That's.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah. And, and then what really got me is I've told the story 10,000 times here, I'll tell it 10,000 more. And I don't have time to get all the way into it. But I was, when I was in college, after, after my camp days, I had three jobs because nobody paid me to just, you know, whatever. So anyway, I, I waited tables. This was in North Myrtle Beach. I waited tables, I opened. I worked at the morning shift of a gym. And I was a youth pastor at a church, a very, very, very Southern Baptist church. And I was just like the summer youth guy, you know, And I would write my sermons at the desk where you make the protein shake. Across the street from this place was a strip club called the Crazy Horse. Well, the guy that owned the gym, he's smart. He told all the dancers, you get a free membership at the gym. Well, they would all come over at about 11am and every dude in North Myrtle beach would work out at 11 and pay $20 a pop because they knew all the strippers were there. And these are very, very high end, I mean these. And they had invested heavily into their career. Well, what begins to happen real quick, dude, is they would sit around, they'd all get their little protein shakes and I'd make them. And I'm a, I'm like 21 years old or something, seminary student. And I got my bible open and I'm writing my Wednesday night talk and they're like, what are you doing? I was like, well, hey, I'm writing this sermon. Let me. Can I run it by you? And I just thought, take this for the word. I thought, if the strippers get it, surely my high school kid, you know what I Mean, so whatever. Learned all kind of things very quickly because at first I was like, dude, what if somebody sees me up here talking to these girls? You know, they're all in sports bras and everything, you know, I mean, it's whatever. They're not modest at all. I found out some things, okay? They all had two names. You talk about seeing Matthew like their name was not their stage name.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

That's right.

[Pastor Jeff]

They had a name and they had parents. Almost all of them had kids. Almost all of them. None of their kids knew what they did because they were so ashamed of it. None of this was not their plan, man. They went down this road and they made, so they made thousands of dollars a night. And then they began to live a lifestyle that they thought, I can't, I can't undo this. You know, Some of them had husbands that was, you know, that's kind of a whole thing. And then I, I, I invited them to church because I thought, they'll never come. And then one of them, her name was Sunshine, her stage name was Sunshine. And she's like, I'll go to church with you. And I thought, oh, crap. I mean, bro, like my first Sunday there, I wore a blue blazer and khakis. And they were like, we dress up around here. That was not enough. That was business casual. I didn't have any money and they made me go buy a suit, and so I had to go buy a suit. So anyway, and all they let me do is the announcements because I was the youth guy. So Sunshine comes and picks me up in her a white convertible Corvette with her daughter. And we, the three of us, the daughter sat in the lap of Sunshine. Her license plate said topless. Fun for like the double entendre, meaning, you know. So we take her, is about a 30 minute ride to this church inside of like, you know, in the inner parts of South Carolina. And she had on a little tiny sundress and big old, big old high heels. And she was, I mean, she was immodestly dressed, but bro, she just put on the best thing she had. Went to church with me. At the end of the service, you could feel the eyes looking. You could, you know, it was like, oh, man, I remember thinking, I'm gonna get in trouble, dude. I'm 21. I'm like a seminary student. We drop our kid off at Sunday school. We go through the service. I have no idea what the guy talked about. A deacon comes up to me afterwards and is like, hey, we need to talk to you. I was like, hey, you Go get your kid. I'll be right back. And it was a group of deacons that said, what are you doing bringing a girl like that here? And she. And they said, we, our job is to protect our people from people like that. And you're bringing them in here. And I wish I could tell you that I had the boldness I have now. Yeah. Fear took over and I just capitulated.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

You were 21.

[Pastor Jeff]

I just decided, yeah, I'm. I'm sorry. So I go out, Sunshine's leaning up against the car. She got these cool Ray Bans on, just freaking bald. And I was like. She's like, that was about me, wasn't it? I lied. I was like, we got, you know, I made up something. I lied to her face. We get in the car, riding back, it's just quiet. It's like Def Leppard on the radio. Meanwhile, by the way, her kid is finishing a coloring a picture of Jesus. And I'm just. It was so awkward. I felt so insecure. I was like, so, what'd you think? And she just says, I've never been more humiliated in my life. Think about that dude in the house of God two nights before, she's naked dancing from strangers for a dollar at a time. And somehow she felt more honored there than in church. So I just decided if I ever have anything to do with it, I repented. She moved the next week. I don't know her real name. I have no idea how to track her down. I have no idea what that experience did. But I know we failed and I failed. And so I just decided if I ever get to run one of these things, it's for all people. All people. Now we have multiple ministries to the strip clubs and to help women get out of human trafficking and prostitution. And now my wife is like a fill in for one of those and goes into the strip clubs and takes dinner to the girls because they matter to God. And so I learned it through utter failure.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know that phrase, mercy instead of sacrifice? I was reading a psalm and there's a similar line in there where David says, you desire something in the heart.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And then not, you know, and the thought came to me, offering a sacrifice to a God was not unique in ancient times. But the difference was this is a, a transaction in a pagan religion. It's a transaction to try to earn some kind of favor.

[Pastor Jeff]

It's also very public.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. And. And Yahweh's way was different, was that it's supposed to come from the overflow

[Reverend Matt Carter]

of the Heart, Correct.

[Host/Interviewer]

Not the externals. And man, I just, I'm so grateful for the culture that you said, Pastor Joby, that comes out of that experience.

[Pastor Jeff]

Well, the fundamental. Here's what Jesus is saying, man. The moment you sit in the seat of the Pharisee and you're like, do you know what I have given up? Do you know what I have done? What you're saying is that Jesus, I'm not paying any attention to what you've given up, what you've done. I've got this whole thing focused on me. And I think what Jesus is saying is what I desire is for you to have my eyes towards the lost sheep, towards the tax collector, towards the sinner. And it's not what are you doing, it's what can I sacrifice for you? That's the fundamental difference to keep you out of the seat of the Pharisee. Right?

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Yeah. I was thinking this last Sunday I preached on Romans 2. You got Romans 1, he's speaking to the sinner. Romans 2, he's speaking to the person in the church.

[Pastor Jeff]

Yeah.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

And. And he, he says therefore, and he's talking about all the crazy sins of chapter one. He says when you judge and he drops a theological nuclear bomb on us, he says, you are doing the same thing. Yeah. And so the point is, whether you're a self righteous deacon or a stripper, you're all equal at the foot of the cross in desperate need of a savior.

[Pastor Jeff]

Amen.

[Host/Interviewer]

Amen. Well, thank you gentlemen for a rich conversation. I don't know who should pray, but

[Reverend Matt Carter]

Dr. Carter, I would love to pray. God, we. God, we thank you that you came after us. But you didn't see who I was. You saw who you would transform me to be.

[Pastor Jeff]

Thank you.

[Reverend Matt Carter]

I thank you for calling Pastor Joby Martin out of nowhere and lifting him

[Pastor Jeff]

up

[Reverend Matt Carter]

and using him and all the staff of this church to be a place that anyone can come and encounter the gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray for anyone that's listening that thinks that they have sinned so heinously that the blood of Christ does not apply to them. May they hear clearly to that there is no sin greater than the grace of Jesus Christ and they would come to you. Lord, we love you. We thank you for who you are and what you've done in our lives. And we pray all these things in Jesus name.

[Pastor Jeff]

Thank you for listening to the podcast.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

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