The Freedom Found in Forgiveness - Matthew S5E7

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin – "The Freedom Found in Forgiveness" (Matthew S5E7)
Date: July 13, 2026
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guest: Pastor Adam

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into Matthew 18:15–35, focusing on the transformative power and spiritual necessity of forgiveness. Pastors Joby Martin and Adam explore Jesus’ teachings on confronting those who sin against us, the practical and emotional process of forgiveness, distinguishing between forgiveness and reconciliation, and how embracing the gospel enables genuine forgiveness. The conversation is candid, practical, and grounded in scriptural insight, seeking to move listeners from superficial peacekeeping toward the deeper freedom that comes from Christlike forgiveness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Forgiveness is Central (00:17–04:41)

• Pastor Joby notes that forgiveness is among the most common counseling issues he faces, signified as “top question in the lobby.”
  • Quote: “This is probably one of the top questions that I get in line in the lobby about how do I forgive? How do I know if I forgive?” (01:01, Joby)
• The passage in Matthew 18 provides rare, “step-by-step” clarity via the debt-debtor parable (03:37, Joby).
• Forgiveness, biblically, is not ‘forgive and forget’; rather, God chooses to not hold forgiven sin against us but does not literally forget it.

2. The Debt Ledger: Understanding the Offense (04:41–09:43)

• Joby emphasizes: “Forgiveness is just the canceling of the debt.” (04:44)
• Most people skip the deep work of acknowledging what was actually lost/stolen in sin (“debt ledger”)—whether integrity, trust, or even physical safety.
• Quote: “If you don’t name the loss, the debt, you can’t do what you’re about to talk about, right?” (06:36, Adam)
• The fermenting of unforgiveness leads to bitterness and excuses for continued bad behavior.

3. How Unforgiveness Empowers the Enemy (09:43–11:26)

• Both pastors agree that holding onto offense is a kind of spiritual bondage:
  • “If the enemy can get you to question if forgiveness works on the horizontal level, then he can begin to chip away at the vertical.” (07:36, Joby)

4. Only Jesus Can Ultimately Pay the Debt (10:14–11:26)

• Forgiveness is possible only because Jesus pays the debt (“the perfect justice of God against a perfect person”).
• “The gospel answer is, well, you don't make somebody else pay for it and you don't pay for it. Jesus pays for it.” (10:45, Adam)

5. Discerning Sin vs. Offense vs. Preference (12:42–17:45)

• Not every offense is genuinely a sin. The passage calls for discernment:
  • “Did your brother sin against you, or did you just hurt your feelings? Or did you just step on your preferences?” (13:49, Joby)
• A practical “GOSPEL” acronym helps assess whether one was actually sinned against or just offended. (16:04–16:56, Adam & Joby)
• Wisdom from Proverbs: “Blessed is he who overlooks an offense.” (14:06, Joby)

6. The Process: Matthew 18’s Restoration Steps (17:45–29:55)

• Private Confrontation: Always begin one-on-one to avoid unnecessary widening of the conflict.
  • “Step one is just one on one for the sake of reconciliation.” (19:58, Joby)
• Gathering Witnesses: Mature, godly friends can objectively assess the situation.
  • “If you’re going to bring two or three, you should be very wise about who those are.” (23:37, Joby)
• Church Involvement: “Telling it to the church” is about spiritual accountability, not public shaming.
  • “He is not saying drag them before the congregation on a weekend service.” (27:08, Joby)
  • Memorable moment: Story of a woman shamed before her church as a teen—contrasted with the biblical aim, which is restoration.
• Distinguishing ‘wolves’ from ‘wounded sheep’: True church discipline seeks to protect, not punish.

7. Forgiveness as Spiritual Warfare: Binding & Loosing (31:41–39:34)

• Forgiveness “binds up whispers of the enemy” and “looses the gospel,” unleashing freedom and unity.
  • “I’m about to bind up some demonic activity and cast this thing away, and I'm about to loose the gospel.” (32:59, Joby)
• The world is startled when Christians forgive as Christ forgave—referencing the Charleston church shooting and public forgiveness offered to the killer (34:06–34:55).

8. The Limit of Forgiveness? (39:59–43:19)

• Peter’s question: “How many times must I forgive?” (40:02)
• Jesus’ answer abolishes limits—gospel forgiveness is not a counting game.
  • “The limit on forgiveness isn't the sin. The limit on forgiveness is the Gospel and your faith in that Gospel.” (41:54, Adam)
• “If you ain't giving it, maybe you ain't got it.” (43:24, Joby)

9. Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation & Consequences (48:00–51:38)

• Forgiveness is unilateral and commanded by Christ; reconciliation requires mutual repentance and may not always be possible—or wise (particularly in cases of abuse).
  • “Forgiveness is unilateral and commanded … regardless of what the other person does, because Christ forgave us.” (48:35, Joby)
• Consequences remain even after forgiveness; forgiveness doesn’t erase natural or legal outcomes.
  • “You forgive and he goes to jail. And we’ll minister to him in our prison ministry.” (51:03, Joby)

10. Feelings and Ongoing Practice of Forgiveness (51:38–54:01)

• Feeling residual pain/resistance doesn’t invalidate forgiveness; it may require repeatedly submitting emotions to the gospel.
  • “You’ve got to quit believing your feelings and submit them once again unto the Lord.” (52:22, Joby)
• Reminding oneself regularly about the gospel is vital.

11. The Role of Confession—forgiveness flows both directions (55:41–57:06)

• Asking for forgiveness is as essential as offering it—James 5:16.
  • “… the same gospel that makes you a forgiving person should also be the same gospel that makes you able to go ask for forgiveness in that.” (55:54, Adam)

12. Living Continuously Mindful of Your Own Forgiveness (58:44–60:55)

• Preach the gospel to yourself daily, remembering what you’ve been saved from, and make a habit of keeping “short accounts.”
  • “The more you can walk around with just that clean slate, the better.” (60:49, Joby)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Unforgiveness over time begins to ferment. And two things happen when something ferments. It stinks and you get drunk on it. And that’s what happens with unforgiveness.” (06:02, Joby)
• “The gospel answer is…Jesus pays for it. In and only in the cross does it answer how much does it take to pay for a sin.” (10:45, Adam)
• “We have this cancel culture…Instead of cancel somebody out, you do this—you forgive—and the world is going to look and go, ‘You forgave that person?’” (33:14, Adam)
• “Love keeps no record of wrong. That word is logizomai. That means you don’t talk about that anymore.” (45:13, Joby)
• “If you ain’t giving it, maybe you ain’t got it.” (43:24, Joby; repeated as a theme)
• “The more you can walk around with just that clean slate, the better.” (60:49, Joby)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17 – 04:41: Introduction; common struggles with forgiveness
• 04:41 – 09:43: The debt ledger—naming and releasing the offense
• 10:14 – 11:26: Only Christ can pay sin’s debt
• 12:42 – 17:45: Discerning true offense vs. personal preference
• 17:45 – 29:55: The Matthew 18 process; private confrontation, witnesses, church
• 31:41 – 39:34: Forgiveness as spiritual warfare
• 39:59 – 43:19: The limitless nature of forgiveness (Peter’s question)
• 48:00 – 51:38: Forgiveness vs. reconciliation; consequences of sin
• 51:38 – 54:01: Navigating feelings after forgiving
• 55:41 – 57:06: The importance of confession
• 58:44 – 60:55: Staying mindful of our own forgiveness, “short accounts”

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Final Takeaways

• True forgiveness is not a passive “forgetting” but an active, sometimes repeated, canceling of relational debts in light of Christ’s sacrifice.
• Forgiveness liberates both parties, whereas holding a debt only binds the offended.
• Unforgiveness distorts our faith and leaves us susceptible to bitterness and spiritual attack.
• The process outlined in Matthew 18 is designed for restoration—not punishment—and must be handled with wisdom, especially in cases of abuse or ongoing unrepentance.
• Reconciliation and restoration are related but not identical to forgiveness; safety, repentance, and wisdom are critical factors.
• Keep “short accounts” with others and with God—practice both giving and receiving forgiveness often.
• The world takes notice when Christians forgive radically and sacrificially—just as Christ forgave us.

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For Further Reflection:
Preach the gospel to yourself often—remember your own forgiveness, pursue peace and reconciliation as far as it depends on you, and allow God’s supernatural presence to empower forgiveness beyond what is humanly possible.

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(All quotes are attributed by speaker and timestamp for easy reference back to the episode.)

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[B]

Well, pastors, we're in Matthew 18. We love Matthew 18. Welcome, Pastor Adam.

[C]

Good to see you guys.

[B]

Pastor Joby, you. You have a chapter in your. One of your books. Why don't you tell us about that? Based on this text.

[D]

Yeah. Run over by the grace train. Chapter seven, Grace Forgives is an unpacking of this. I mentioned to you right before Adam got here. This is one of my favorite passages to preach and teach. This is probably the one of the top questions that I get in line in the lobby about how do I forgive? How do I know if I forgive? I thought I forgave, but I got these feelings. We'll talk about all that, I hope. And I just often tell people to fully explain what forgiveness actually is Biblically. It's going to take me about an hour. So you can either listen to when I preached it last time or hear just, here's the book. Read this. And so on the one hand, so the way I put the sermon schedule together, this is where it bites me in the butt a little bit, is I just sit down with the Gospel of Matthew and I know how many weeks we have for it to be taught. And then I don't look. I don't even look. I look at the first date, and I look at the last date, you know, and then I just say, all right, then this is how I think we should divide it up. These are the chunks we're going to teach it in. And after I've laid all of that out, and let's be honest, some passages are way easier to teach than others. And then I begin to look at my calendar and all of that. And so this is one where I wish I was teaching it just because I've done so much work in it. However, I don't wrap the schedule around my skill. I don't wrap the preaching schedule around my schedule. I submit to the preaching schedule, if that makes sense. But what I do think will be really good, I've taught this here probably four or five times, you know, because I think it is. It's something all of us are or will be dealing with firsthand.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So I think it will be really, really helpful to hear just another voice talking about the same text and the same realities that Jesus lays out.

[B]

Yeah, it's verse 15 to the end of the chapter. So, Pastor Adam, what's the bird's eye view as you look at this and you think, what's the flavor of the bean, if you will?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, the whole. The whole thing is about forgiveness. And then one is like, what do you do if somebody forgives? I mean, sins against you? Like, how do you handle that? And then the second part is. And. And I. We can talk about this a little bit. But in verse 21, where Peter asks, he says, lord, how often will my brother sin against me? And I forgive him. And so it's like, does. Does forgiveness have any limits on that? And so then he talks about. So it's like, here's how you handle it, and then here's how limitless God's forgiveness towards us is and all that. So they're. It's kind of left and right hand in that.

[B]

So a lot of experience pastoring.

[C]

I thought you're gonna say a lot of experience forgiving you.

[B]

Well, maybe that, too. What percentage of people would you say are walking around with, like, a level of unforgiveness in their life and what is it costing them? Because you said you get this question a lot.

[D]

I would say that 100% of people are walking around with the residue of being sinned against, and their feelings are so closely associated with it. That's why there's so much confusion as to, did I actually forgive or not? That's where the parable rarely does. Jesus give you, like, here are the three steps. But he actually does it here when he does this debt, debtor relationship with, you know, the. The guy that owes a little bit go. Or that the guy that owes a ton goes and gets forgiven of it all, and then he encounters somebody that owes a little bit, and he withholds. And it says that. That he settles accounts. And so that's what forgiveness is. It's a settling of accounts. And it, you know, you have all these phrases like, we just got to forgive and forget. That. That is not in the Bible. The Bible never says God forgets anything. He remembers no more. That is different. That means he chooses to forgive and remember that he forgave. He cast our sins as far as the east is from the West. But it's not like he. He doesn't know stuff anymore. He. It's not like he forgets.

[C]

He doesn't drag it up out of the past and bring it into the present again.

[D]

Nor is he like, oh, you were a sinner. No, like, he knows, okay. And so this process. When you think about it, in a debt, debtor relationship, forgiveness is just the canceling of the debt. And what Pastor Adam just said. And Jesus redirects the why. The reason, according to this parable, is because you have been forgiven of all the sins of all time that you ever did, are doing or will do. Therefore, because forgiveness has come your way, it ought to pass through you, and you've got to cancel the debt. And I think, and I might be jumping ahead, but I don't read the questions. So what happens in my conversations is, all right, I sinned against Adam. Adam forgave me, went to the altar, he prayed about it. Maybe he didn't know. You're a bad example because you know this, whoever Joe Blow, I sinned against him, he forgave me, he went to the altar, he prayed about it, he said the words. But he did not do the process of first identifying who sinned against him. Identifying, like, settling accounts. What did they take from me? Because if you think about, if you think about being sinned against that, that way, like, if you lied about me, man, you stole what, what people think about my integrity, about my character. If somebody divorced you, they, they broke a vow, if they cheated on you, man, they stole something from you, you know, and then you create what we call a debt ledger. And you think about that, you think, no, no, somebody else is tucking my kids in because you sinned against me. And I don't have my kids, you know, I only get them every other weekend. You owe me that. This is the part that most Christians skip because it's hard. And they think like, water rolls off the duck's back. We're just supposed to be like, don't worry about it. No, you should worry a lot about it.

[C]

Well, and that's, I mean, just double down on that is like, because forgiveness isn't just sweeping it under the rug or forgetting about it. So if you don't, if you don't name the loss, the debt, you can't, you can't do what you're about to talk about, right?

[D]

So, like in the book, we have a debt ledger that I would encourage you. And this is not the kind of thing you could fill out during your sermon if you're serious about it. And if the, if the offense, like, if somebody abused you, molested you, that's not a little thing that you can just deal with real quick. Somebody abused their position of power, they abused you, they stole from you innocence, they have robbed you of nights of sleep. Like, this is a like, sin is such a big deal. The son of God had to pour out all of his blood for it. We are not minimizing sin. And too many Christians minimize sin for the sake of peacekeeping, not peacemaking. Okay, so let's say you do. You go through the hard work and you've got this thing, okay? Vinky sinned against me. Here's what he did. Here's what it cost me. Here are my emotions attached to it. Oh, yeah, here's some other sins that he did in the follow up because now he's gossiping and slandering all the things, okay? And then you have in your hand a debt ledger. And now you've got a decision as to what you want to do with it. And you can make your case, right? You could just carry around for the rest of your life and be like, I hate Vinky. And people are like, why? You hate Vinky? But like, look, here it is. I have proof that he's terrible. Or at least one time was terrible to me. Now the problem is, is if you do that, unforgiveness over time begins to ferment. And two things happen when something ferments. It stinks and you get drunk on it. And that's what happens with unforgiveness. It's nasty, dude. Like, you will become a bitter person because that's what happens with unforgiveness. It ferments, it festers, and you get drunk on the emotions. And I think one of the reasons people don't forgive is because if I cancel the debt, then what excuse do I have now for my bad behavior? Like, the reason I pop off at the handle is because of my parents and this is how they treated me. Or here's what she. You know what I mean? The reason I drink so much is because the reason I. Well, the reason I'm angry all the time is because. And so now it's a canceling of the debt. And here's why I think this matters here is what's going to happen. You're going to listen to Pastor Adam's sermon. You're going to walk through what Jesus says you are. Some, many, many people are going to do. They're going to cancel the debt. They're going to take that debt ledger, they're going to burn it. They're going to throw it in the ocean. They're going to do something. And about two weeks later, some songs will come on the radio that reminds you of her or whatever the thing happens and all these feelings come rushing back. And then you Go, did I really forgive? Because I think, and here's why I think it's spiritual warfare. I think if the enemy can get you to question if forgiveness works on the horizontal level, then he can begin to chip away at. Then surely forgiveness at the vertical doesn't work. And I think that's what he's actually about.

[C]

Well, and you know that, that idea of like, am I going to forgive or not? And if you're withholding it, there's a recognition in that that sin has to be paid for. Because yeah, if you sin against me, then if I like my getting angry is actually making you pay for your sin. Like I'm exacting, like there's, I'm getting a pound of flesh out of that.

[D]

Or, and it doesn't work, but you think it works.

[C]

Right, right, but. Or I'm going to go sulk and get mad. So now I'm going to pay for your sin. So buried under there is a recognition that sin must be paid for. There is a price, there is a debt. And, and you, you have a choice. It's either you're going to make somebody else pay for the sin and at what point have they paid for it, how much, how often, how long, you know, so, or I'm going to pay for it, I'm going to be eaten up, hurt, like I'm going to lump all that on me. So same thing, how long, how much? And then the gospel answer is, well, you don't make somebody else pay for it and you don't pay for it. Jesus pays for it. And in it, and only in the cross does it answer how much does it take to pay for a sin? And it takes the perfect justice of God against a perfect person to exact the wages of that sin. And that's the only, it'll never work. If I make you, it'll never work, or me, it'll never work.

[D]

And a part of Jesus's parable is he's going like, and you should know this because you have been the recipient of a much greater in volume at least of sin and magnitude of sin. You have received more forgiveness than you can imagine, but yet you're trying to withhold forgiveness. So I mean, that's the parable. I mean what the one guy owes you could not pay back in a lifetime. Yeah, it's something like 20, 20 years of 20 years wages. Like there's not a human you would have to live 20 times in order to make enough money to pay this thing back. The lesser debt is like a few weeks maybe A month's worth of money. That would be, you know, you cancel all of my debt for the rest of my life, but you owe me a dollar. And I. He actually goes all ufc, like, chokes him out and stuff. And so everybody's like, this doesn't make sense. So from a heavenly perspective, the angels have, like, a box seat to our lives, and they see the believer withholding forgiveness, they're like, oh, this doesn't make sense.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

We're going to unpack just a little bit of the pieces of this instruction before the parable. Okay?

[D]

So very important.

[B]

The. The. The phrase of the very first phrase, if your brother sins against you, let's stop right there and talk about how important that is.

[D]

Step one, is this person my brother or not?

[C]

That's right.

[D]

So is this. Is this an evangelism conversation or a discipleship reconciliation conversation? Because if they're not your brother in Christ, what you need to actually be talking about first and foremost is that they would be reconciled to God even before you're talking about them being reconciled to you. That matters because we have this weird thing where we try to hold unbelievers to the standard of the scriptures of a believer. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, which is where he circles back at the end and says, well, then treat him like an unbeliever. And part of it. I mean, part of that is a. A justice. There's that laying up under there. But then what you just said is like, well, how do you treat unbelievers? You. You don't assume they know the gospel. You don't assume they operate like the gospel, and they need to know the gospel.

[D]

Y. So. And then the second thing is, did your brother sin against you or did you just hurt your feelings? Or did you just step on your preferences? And, man, we confuse our preferences and the precepts of God all the time. You know?

[B]

Yes, I do know.

[D]

And. Or. I mean, the book of Proverbs says, blessed is he who overlooks an offense. And in our culture, we are overstimulated by offenses. We are. I mean, the number of people that get canceled because of a. Like a. They used some phrase that was very normative their whole life, and then turns out that had some very negative connotations to, you know, they didn't even know. Right. And people like, oh, I'm so offended. So was it. Was it a sin? Or are you just offended?

[B]

Is there a.

[D]

And hold on. And against you. Yeah, the number of people that are offended on behalf of the other people. So I love this this is a little.

[A]

Little.

[D]

Any pastors listening? Here's a little pastor hack for you. When. When the number of people. This. This doesn't happen anymore because it just doesn't. But people would come to me, Pastor, There's a lot of rumblings out there. And so I'm just here on behalf of. I'm like, I'm going to save you from sin because Jesus says you're supposed to talk to people and not about people. So tell them to come speak to me. So I'm saving you right now from being out of step with exactly what Jesus said. Now, if you want to talk about a way I have sinned against you, I'm all ears, brother sister. But if you are talking on behalf of someone else, this is actually not how Jesus said to do it. So thank you for your time. And I don't even. And for me to hear it right is participating in something I'm not supposed to participate in.

[B]

What's like, okay, let's say somebody's like, I realize somebody puts their hands up. I realize that I'm confused about what is my offense and what's my emotion and what's being sinned against. Like, what's the grid that they should look through of? How do I know if this is sin against me or just like a. I should let it go?

[D]

I actually think your gospel. What is that called? An acronym. So what it is acronym. I was adding some stuff there. Yeah. The gospel acronym would be A. I. I know you wrote that about knowing the will of God, but it's a pretty good gauge for a lot of things in deciphering. Why don't you go through that? You made it up. I don't want to steal it. Although I steal it all the time.

[C]

That's great. Yeah, I mean, I think so. G, Glory. Like, are they stealing God's glory, you know, or not? Oh, what do other people say? Scripture, I think, which is the one here than prayer, evangelism, and what kind of life will you lead? But it's like, how do I know is, well, did scripture prohibit you from doing that thing and you did it anyway, you know, lying your example.

[D]

All right, so let's do it. Gee, Glory. So you've got a party that you're going to and your girlfriend knew what dress you were going to get and she got the same dress. What does that have to do with the glory of God, man? This is like your own personal offense. Okay, then, so what do you do? This not necessarily in order. It is a really good idea. To have some godly friends around you and say, hey, man, my feathers are ruffled. Is this me? Well, what does the scripture say now? This is the bedrock. On what do we know what sin is? Does it break a commandment of Jesus? So if somebody tells lies, that's a sin? If somebody shares a comment with you that you didn't like, that's not a sin. Right. You can just keep going down that. That kind of road.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. Well, then he. He lays out a process which I think there's something there too. It says if he does, you know, go straight to him and if he listens to, you've gained your brother. If he doesn't listen, bring others and then bring it before the church. Why. Why that progressive process of escalating

[D]

if. If the church has talked to people and about and not about people, the whole. The whole world would be different, you know, and the point is, you might win your brother.

[C]

That's it.

[D]

I mean, how many times have you. I've done this so many times, man, I'm offended. It may even actually be a sin. Or with the information that I have, it seems like this person has wronged me. And then I have the imaginary conversation in my head. I'm gonna say this, and they're gonna grovel, and then I'm gonna go, and then heaven is gonna cheer me on because I'm right again. And then I sit down with somebody face to face. And all of a sudden now, and dude, it doesn't say text, it doesn't say tweet, it says face to face. And now we're face to face. And I'm getting all kind of new information, body language, tone of voice, and I just can't tell you the number of times I go at some point in the conversation, I go, I know that.

[C]

Right?

[D]

And now I've got this new information, and if it's resolved there, then it's over. Yeah, I mean, one of the worst things, if you're trying to stop a fire, don't add more fuel, you know, I mean, if you were find yourself in a hole, getting out of the hole 101, is stop digging. And what typically what we do is we build a defense team or a prosecution team first because we like to be liked. And we also want to make sure we're the first one because, you know, Proverbs, was it 17:18 or something like that says whoever hears the report first often believes it until the other party fills in the gaps. And so we like to do this and all we're doing, man, is we're creating chaos in the body. So step one is just one on one for the sake of reconciliation.

[C]

I think that's so important because if, if you're just trying to get back at them.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, you're like, you're going to broadcast that thing first because what you're trying to do is hurt them, make them pay. So. And I thought just, you know, when you're in ministry, there can be conflict. I mean, you're just all the time. And, and how many times, you know, let's say you and I have it out over something and it's not resolved for whatever reason. And then I go home and I tell Kristen, you won't believe what Vinky said and did today, you know, and I just, I, I'm making you pay to her. Well, she loves me, so now I got her on my team.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And now, and now I'm mad at you, and she's mad at you.

[D]

And Viny's leading worship that week, and she shows up to church.

[C]

Totally.

[D]

And then can't even sing.

[C]

Then fast forward a couple weeks and Kristen hasn't seen you because you guys don't see each other on a regular basis. But then you and I sit down, we work things out, all that sort of stuff, and we're good. And she's over here just still so angry at you on my behalf.

[D]

Righteous reasons.

[C]

Yeah. And, but that was unfair. That was un, Kind, Loving, Fair. Good of me to do that to Kristen, and it's not fair to you, and it's not fair to your relationship. And so on a real practical level, if you and I have a problem and I just deal with it here, I can, I can save a lot of other people a lot of heartache and a lot of pain and a lot of carnage in doing that.

[D]

So make sure you do step one before moving to step two. And then step two is get two or three others.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Now, this is not an intervention, and this is not. Y' all hold him while I hit him. This is ideally a mature, objective third party that can look at both of us and help us see what we can't see. And here's another thing.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

This is my own. You know how Pastor R will always say, like, I've just made the fundamental decision to not defend myself. I want to say that so bad. I am so defensive. I have such a defensive. I just do. I don't know what's wrong with me. I, I, there a lot is wrong with me.

[C]

Okay?

[D]

So if Pastor Adam came to me and was like, hey, I need to tell you some things you need to work on. Hopefully I would receive it in humility, but I also know me in a part of my mind, I'd be like, yeah, okay, but you don't know what I know, right?

[C]

That's right.

[D]

And I'll take what I want to take. You know, it kind of depends on how I woke up this morning. Right. All right. But if you came to me and Vinky and Britt and Lars and Ben, and while Adam's talking to me, everybody's nodding their head, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wait a minute. This is not just one personal evaluation that could be different just based on where he is. There's actually. There's some agreement among the brethren here, and there's some real power there. And then ideally, what happens too, is that the group, as Adam is laying out the things I need to work on. They're. If the. If the two or three are doing their job, they're. They're also looking at Adam going, and here's some stuff you need to own or saying, yeah, you're 75%, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Because they're witnesses in your evaluation. But, bro, 25% of that, Joby, you're off the hook. That's not a thing. And so it's helpful.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And this. And so if you're going to bring two or three, you should be very wise about who those. Listen, man. Disciple group. Disciple group. Disciple group. Disciple group. So if you. Let's just say your best friend sinned against you in a blatant way, if you don't have two or three strong godly believers around you that you could bring into the situation, you're not doing the Christian life. Right?

[B]

Right.

[D]

And if you wait till you need it to build it, it's like a retirement account. It's too late. It's just it, man. It's also. It's also helpful for the offended.

[B]

Right.

[D]

I mean, I don't want to share people's junk. But there. There was. There has been a time where I have been sinned against here. Okay. By a dear friend who's kind of ghosted us, me. And so I try to reach out. I try to reach out to no avail, to no avail. And then as I grabbed two or three around me, a part of what it helped me with is for them to say, it's not just you. Like all the things that we know about this. We do think you're seeing this thing rightly so it doesn't just help the per. The offender, it helps the offended, too, to see if you're out of line.

[C]

Yeah. And it, I don't know the situation, but, like, it wasn't necessarily directed at you.

[D]

Yeah. And that helped.

[C]

This was that person's issue. And you just happened to be collateral damage to that thing.

[D]

And then there's another thing right now, man. I've got a dear friend that I'm trying to walk with, and about seven of us are trying to walk with him. But it's all individual. Individual. And I think what's happening is, is like to each individual, I think we're all saying the same thing to him. And I think he's nodding his head, but he can, you can kind of dodge when it's one on one, you know what I mean? And he hasn't sinned against us. We're just trying to help snatch a brother from the fire, bro. That's what we're trying to do. And so I, you know, I was just praying about this and talking with two of my Matt carriers the other night, and it's like, I think it's time that five of us all go sit down with the brother so that he can't. I mean, how do you defend everyone? You're wrong and you're wrong and you're wrong and you're wrong and you're wrong because come on. I mean, none of us are perfect, but the cumulative effect of all five of us has got to be. Got to be closer.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Than any individual.

[C]

Yeah. And we might, I mean, we'll probably get there in this next little part. But I also think this is where having elders in a local church matters so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because. Well, I mean, we can just go there because he says, then go tell it to the church. I don't think in most of our context today what you mean is like, drag this person up in front of the church service and air your grievances. Like, you know, that's been true for, for some people.

[B]

Right.

[C]

For sure. But I don't think, you know, it's not you. But there is a way that you can do this if you have good godly biblical.

[D]

So when, when Paul is writing to the Corinthians, he's. He makes a distinction between the body of Christ and the gathering. And in the gathering there are insiders and there are outsiders. So the. So Jesus is not saying, take these people to the unbelievers who are geographically located near the body. He's. And obviously the church is not a Building the ch. The church is the body of Christ. Okay? That's what the church is. So he is not saying drag them before.

[C]

Right.

[D]

The congregation on a weekend service. Because a part of what you should expect in that, according to 1 Corinthians, is that there are unbelievers in the house. Okay. Years ago, I'm working out across the street. There's this. It was a long time ago, I was in my 30s, this lady was in her 40s and I'm dude, I invite everybody all the time. I was like, hey, why don't you come to church with me next door? And she's like, nah. And she just kept nah, you know, but you know how it is if you change the same time at the gym, you see the same people, you know. And so she was super sweet and all the things. And then I just kept pressing and kept pressing. And one day she said, hey, listen, I'm never coming to a church. And I just go, what happened? She was 16 years old or 15 years old, 14 years old, something like that. Small fundamentalist church. She got pregnant, she served in the kids ministry and she's serving the thing. And on a Sunday morning at the end of the service, they put her in front as a 14 year old, 15 year old girl. They put her in front of the Sunday service for her to tell everybody how she had let them down because of her sin.

[C]

Just slapped a scarlet letter A on like. Yeah, just. Yeah.

[D]

You know, this is not what Jesus was talking about. Even if you fast forward to the end and the person is unrepentant, you treat him as an unbeliever. Okay, see the rest of the New Testament. How do you treat the unbeliever? You don't put them in church leadership. So are there things that disqualify you from certain levels of responsibility and shepherding leadership? 100%. But what do you do to the unbeliever? You roll out the red carpet. You love them, you share the gospel with them, you invite them to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Now, if they're a wolf, 1 Corinthians, and they're trying to sleep with everybody in the congregation, they are unsafe for the body.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And wolves aren't invited in. But if you're a wounded sheep or a wayward sheep, you don't treat them like a wolf.

[C]

Well, what's interesting is so a lot of, you know, some folks that go hard line church discipline, which church discipline's biblical, so it's not an argument, but they'll say, well okay, let's say you're gonna now put somebody out of the church. Like you go through this and you're like we're gonna put them out and

[D]

we even done that here and.

[C]

Yeah, and even. But even Paul says you do that in order to restore them back.

[D]

Correct.

[C]

So Paul's, it's like Paul's doing a commentary on this idea. So it's again, it's not a punishment, it's a, it's an order to restore and gain your brother back.

[D]

This will get me in trouble. In our, in our tribe. I don't love the words church discipline. Today I think we call it here pastoral care because that's what it is. I'm caring for the flock and I'm caring for your soul. I'm not. I mean the root word of the Greek word disciple church discipling, praise God. And that feels like discipline sometimes. But today there's just been, it's just been so egregious so many times and I mean bro, we've had some friends not going to name names and there's like an associate campus pastor at Campus six that gave that told some horrendous things to a wife of a missionary that had been abused not physically but had been mistreated by her husband under the guise of church discipline. And that's the problem, you know what I mean? So I want to frame that like. And if you look through like what are we all about? It'll say pastoral care on how do we care? Because a predator in the prey you treat very differently. And in my opinion that 14, 15 year old girl, she was not the predator, you know what I mean? But you're absolutely right. The reason, first of all, if you're a predator, you're out of here because, because I'm keeping the sheep safe from.

[C]

It's the two ends of the shepherd staff 100%, dude. One of them you use to pull them back in.

[D]

The other one used to crack him in the head.

[C]

Beat the wolf out of the.

[D]

Yeah, yeah,

[B]

what, what's the what can you say about the binding and loosing section there at the end of this? Like how forgiveness has a profoundly spiritual binding and loosing power.

[D]

Well, what did Jesus come to do?

[B]

Bite up the strong man.

[D]

He came to forgive sin. Like this is it, this is the whole Jesus is like what you're talking about horizontally 101 I came to do eternally and cosmically. So, so these things like, I mean forgiveness is like one of the most powerful acts of spiritual Warfare. We talk about it in our one of them. I don't know the order of these things come out anymore. But maybe it was last night. But you were talking. He read some book. He reads about nine books a week. I had to preach too much so I just get to read Matthew. But whatever that author's name was. Do you remember the name of the book in the.

[B]

David Pallison.

[D]

Yeah. And he. The majority of spiritual warfare is just in your normative everyday life.

[C]

Right.

[D]

And I'm going to tell you forgiveness is one of the most powerful weapons of warfare against the enemy.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

That I'm not going to let sin have the loudest word. I'm about to. I'm about to bind up some whispers of the enemy and I'm about to bind up some demonic activity and cast this thing away. And I'm about to loose the gospel. I'm about to lose freedom. I'm about to lose forgiveness.

[C]

Well, and you think what would, I mean what would honor and bless and glorify God more than doing the thing that he did that cost his son his life? And then what, what could be. I mean, I think the way we suffer and probably the way we forgive are probably two of the greatest apologetics in our world today. That's good because we idolize comfort. So if you can suffer, well, that just flies in the face of escapism, culture and, and then I mean we, we have this cancel culture in so many different ways. And then you do this instead of cancel somebody out and the world is going to look and go, you forgave, you forgave that person.

[D]

You see it on the news, bro. Even, even headline news will run the story right of the. Remember like the, the church shooting in Charleston, that historically black church, and a guy racially motivated comes in and kills people, shoots people during church. And like a. I think he was a deacon of the church, but in that context it would be an elder here. And he stands in the court and looks at his son's murderer and says, I forgive you. You. The regular cable news runs that story.

[C]

Sim.

[D]

Two things are simultaneously happening. One part of the brain of our society in America is going, how could you? And the other side, with eternity in our hearts are going, I want that.

[C]

That's right. That's right.

[D]

I want that. Oh yeah, dude, I can tell you. Let me just. I'm always really careful how much I talk about. I love my parents so much, man. Love my mom, love my dad. They love me and Russ really well, they just had a really hard Time, loving each other. Right. And so they got divorced in the ninth grade. And you have a very limited perspective on what's happening, but the way it played out is my mom left, and so, man, I just had resentment, you know, for a long time. I loved my mom and all of that, and. And I had great respect for my dad. But as I got older, you just get more of all of the events going on, and then what begins to grow is your compassion for your mom and your dad. And if I were in either one of their shoes, I don't know how I would have reacted. But anyway. And even Gretchen would say, I can tell when you talk to your mom. And Gretchen would be nervous that. That I was going to talk to her the way I talk to my mom. And that was just in there. And I tried for it not to be. I tried for it not to be. And I. I'm in ministry. I'm in Jacksonville in ministry. And JP is about four or five months old, and I'm in my backyard. We used to live in the woods. Not the trees, but the neighborhood called the woods. And I. And I just opened the sliding glass door, and I walk in, and my little boy is laying on my mom's bed, chest just with his head. And it was in that second I just go. I cancel the debt that second. H. And even though I had been through. I kind of been through it about 50 times before, I don't think I knew. I didn't know this text. Like, I know it now. I didn't know the process of D. But that's what I know.

[B]

And.

[D]

And what if I ever get aggravated now, if I ever get whatever, I go back to that moment and be like, he didn't do anything. And she has been dealt a tough hand in her life. And so that's it. And that's what Christ did for me and you. You know, we had. Every sin we've ever committed is in the face of God. See Psalm 51. And though we didn't deserve it, he offers it. I mean, dude, Jesus prays, lord, teach us to pray. He's like, how about this one? And he gets to forgive us of trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, well. And I just, you know, verse 20. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I'm all with them. Like, that is such a misused. Like. I mean, we talk about it as like a worship text, and we. I mean, we completely suck that thing out of context. One, you have the spirit of God in you. You have the spirit of God in you. So wherever you are, God's there with you. You don't need another buddy there to like conjure up the spirit. But what's better is to say when you live out God what God did in Christ to forgive you towards other people, there's God. Yeah, God's in the middle. Like when, when you guys start to live this forgiving life, sacrificial forgiving life, and you live out the gospel. God's in the middle of that. He's with you in that thing.

[D]

Yeah. God is co signing your activity. This is it you want to talk about. The blessing is in the obedience and this is with the binding and loosing stuff. Okay. God says, okay, when you've been sinned against and you go to your brother and that doesn't work. So a couple of you get together. He's like, I am supernaturally showing up to make possible what is impossible with just human ingenuity of how to repair relationships through modern communication techniques. No, no, no, no. I am bringing the, the warfare of heaven against the lies of the enemy to bind up and loose some things. Because the enemy would love for the body to be fractured. The enemy would love for brothers and sisters to hate each other. The, the enemy would love it for you to hate your brother and then try to bring your, your offering to the altar. He would love that kind of stuff. And then God says, I will personally supernaturally put some super on your natural. As you just walk out. What I've told you to walk out. And yeah, it's not a verse about. Yeah, it's a, a church gathering where there's not a lot of people.

[C]

It's a great. Exactly what I'm saying. It's actually a great promise and grounding.

[D]

Amen.

[C]

Yeah, like if, if you live your life as a reflection of the way God has lived, there's assurance that God's in the middle of that and he's with you. And it's like how many of us walk around going, I don't know, is God here? Is God in the middle of this and is God with me? And it's like, well, you don't harbor resentment and you give forgiveness. You can be assured the Lord is in that thing.

[D]

Amen.

[B]

So Peter comes up and asks this question.

[D]

Gotta love Peter.

[B]

Yeah, right. And, and he's, he's like saying, well, how many times? Like what's the, what's the limit?

[C]

That's it.

[D]

Yeah, he's showing off.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So what's The Old Testament standard eye for. There's not forgiveness in the Old Testament. Like, there is the New Testament. It's eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Okay, Right? It is. You poke me in the eye, I get to poke you back in the eye. Okay, so then Peter is like, okay, I get you. I get you. Watch this, boys. How many times? As many. And the way, in my mind, he's like, Superman pose. There's a big. There's a big F for faith on his chest with his. With his cape fluttering in the wind. As many as seven. Seven. Like, look how godly I am. And basically, what Jesus says is, well, how many times have I forgiven you? And he's like, okay, let's see. It's one, two. It's a lot. He's like, right? He's like, you're looking at it wrong. If you think you are the centerpiece of forgiveness, then all you will be able to do is what you will be able to do. And honestly, personality has a lot to do with that. Our wiring has a lot to do with that. Our level of, like, sympathy versus justice has a lot to do with that. And Jesus is saying, you got to get you out of the middle of it and put me in the middle of it. So as many as 70 and 7, which he's not saying 490 or so. 77.

[B]

Right. But can you imagine if you're not picking up on Jesus's like, point there, and you're just like, all right, here we go. You make a little spreadsheet of the four.

[D]

Well, I've always joked and say, if it is 490, bro, what would you. You've been married, like, 22 months, and your wife's like, all right, you got three more. I'm done.

[C]

Yeah, well, and.

[D]

But I mean, the.

[C]

This is the question that kind of stopped me in the middle of this is. And. And I think it is a real. What's the limit to forgiveness? Like, if we take the question at, you know, take the show and off and everything. But we take, like. I think that's a real question that a lot of us are walking around is like, so. So how much am I really supposed to forgive? And what that. Now you get to the end of the end of the passage, and he says so in verse 35. So also, my heavenly Father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. And so the idea is, the limit on forgiveness isn't the sin. The limit on forgiveness is the gospel. And your faith in that Gospel. And so what becomes, for me, the way that hits is if I'm not willing to forgive you, that's a moment for me to go, okay, now what part of the gospel do I not believe is true?

[D]

Yeah. I think a key phrase is from your heart.

[C]

That's. Yep.

[D]

Okay, so we're. You know, my kids are grown. Your kids are grown. Good luck. Vinci. When they were real little, you know, and one would sin against the other, and you would require an apology and a forgiveness. They're like, I'm sorry, I forgive me. That is not from the heart. You know what I mean?

[B]

Right.

[D]

That's it. Dude. There's been no reconciliation. They just want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Not get in trouble some more. So who rules and reigns in your heart? That's it. If Jesus rules and reigns in your heart, then Jesus forgives. This is exactly what you're saying. If bitterness rules and reigns in your heart. And this is in good English, but I think you get this from the Lord's Prayer. You get this from this text. If you ain't giving it, maybe you ain't got it.

[C]

And then in that moment, then it becomes like a speck and log situation where it's like, all right, I want to. You sinned against me, and I don't feel like forgiving you. And then I go, okay, well, that means I don't believe something about the gospel. What ever doesn't proceed from faith is sin. Now all of a sudden, God and I have some, like, I have some asking of forgiveness to God because I'm just saying, what cost you the life of your son. I don't really. Trust me.

[D]

Tell you.

[C]

So we got to work some things

[D]

out, how this plays out in a really practical way. The number of couples that we have had to walk through the sin of infidelity and the one sinned against decides we're going to stay married. We'll go through this and I'm. And I'll just go, listen, I know, I know trust was broken. And trust has to be rebuilt. Respect has to be rebuilt. Value has to be rebuilt. Okay, I understand that. But if you're going to stay married to this person and Lord this over them for the rest of their lives, you are so far outside of the gospel, you'll never be married. You will be in the court. You know what I mean? You will be legally. People may even pat you on the back for your grace, but you're not extending grace.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean, Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 has the audacity to say Love keeps no record of wrong. That word is logitsomai. That means you don't talk about that anymore. Now, of course, you go through the counseling where you do the deep work of digging up the roots and all of that. But. Yeah, like, because. Because this will happen a lot. Like, I sin against you. I ask for forgiveness, but in reality, what you're offering is a debt. Debtor relationship with the rest of our friendship. And you get to hold this over me all the time. Like, I broke a promise to you. Now you need to move. And, you know, you call me because if I say, well, man, I can't, you'd be like, well, in a sign is, you know, what you owe me.

[C]

Well, and if the way this can play out real practically is. Okay, so let's say you and your wife, you know, get into a disagreement and it. And it turns into. Well, do you remember when you. That whole get historical. That's evidence that you're dragging this thing up and you didn't actually forgive. Forgive it. You didn't. Yeah. You held on to it in. In order to. To unleash that thing later to make them pay for.

[D]

My problem is, man, I like to argue. Vinky told me this in his demonically possessed personality exams. He makes us do, like, conflict for me is. It actually feels intimate to me. Right? That's like, I'm an eight. And so conflict. I'm like, oh, man, I can trust this brother because we can duke it out. That don't go good in the house. And I like to be right. And I got the Bible verses and, man, the number of times I just want to bring something up. And God just stamps love, keeps no record of wrong. Don't you bring that thing up. Don't you say it, because it is. Because can you imagine if you went to the altar and God just kept bringing up your past over you all the time? And you're not his son. You're a slave. You're a servant. Yeah. You don't have shoes and a robe and a ring and a party.

[C]

And that's where chores. That's where that. Forgive as you've been forgiven in the Greek there.

[D]

Yeah, it's intentionally. So does it mean that I'm going to forgive you as you forgive other people, or does it mean I'm going to forgive other people as you forgive me? The Greek is like, written so that you. You're like. You can read it both ways. And God's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This thing is like a. This is like a Complex organic chemistry equation. You know, this is chicken and egg, man. It is. It is. It's like. Well, the.

[C]

The source of forgiving is being forgiven. My forgiving is a reflection of your being forgiven. I mean, it's all. It's all jumbled up in there.

[D]

And so if you ain't giving it, maybe you ain't got it. I mean, that. That really is a hard look in the mirror.

[C]

Can you talk. One of the things that swims around in my brain and forgiveness and Sorry. If you were going to ask this question, but I'd love is, can we talk about the difference between, like, okay, something happens, I forgive, but there can still be consequences and there still can be the need for reconciliation and restoration. So consequence, reconciliation, restoration. Okay, how does that.

[D]

I spent a lot of time in the chapter in the book on this. We conflate forgiveness and reconciliation as the same thing. They are not the same thing.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Forgiveness is unilateral and commanded. And regardless of what the other person does, because Christ forgave us, we must forgive. Period, end dot. Reconciliation. First of all, it means to take back to, you know, to. To reconcile. There are many relationships that should not be reconciled. Reconciliation requires two active agents and repentance, which doesn't just mean feeling sorry. It means to rewire your mind. It means to change direction. So it requires repentance and forgiveness on both parties. It also, there are many. Here's one caveat that I would give you on Matthew 18, where I tell you, do not do it this way. I do not think Jesus is telling, like a battered wife to put herself back in an unsafe environment in order to do Matthew 18. This is kind of a generally healthy, sociologically healthy people. It does not tell you to put yourself continuously put yourself back into a abusive situation based on Matthew 18. So even if you have been abused, you abuse the glory of God. He forgave you, you forgive your abuser. Okay? That does not mean if that person doesn't have some serious repentance and we are not, we are to plead on behalf of Christ that all men and women would be reconciled unto God and with God, all things are possible. So maybe there will be reconciliation. But there are some relationships that you need to cut off because they are dangerous and they are harmful and salvation is the Lord's and he don't need you to save them.

[C]

Yeah. And then you do what Paul does. You live at peace. As far as it depends on you.

[D]

As far as it depends on you.

[C]

And then if that other person doesn't, they don't want to live at peace

[D]

depending on them then listen, some family member has a history of, of abusing children and you have decided your children are never going to be able to be at their house. Yeah, that's wisdom.

[C]

Right?

[D]

Don't let, don't you let Somebody use Matthew 18 to try to force you to poorly steward the responsibility you have over the care and admonition of your children by putting them in an unsafe environment.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it also doesn't mean removing consequences. Consequences are, are tools in God's hand.

[D]

Yeah, dude.

[C]

And it may be God's kindness to

[D]

give you a hundred percent. So wives, your husband abuses you, you call the police, you call the church, you forgive and he goes to jail. And we'll minister to him in our prison ministry straight up. And so I mean we talk about this with the prisoners all the time. This like our prison ministry is not some sort of like prisoner reform came in. That's not what we're doing. We want them to be reconciled unto God and pay the legal consequences of the sins that they have committed against people. And it's a good question.

[C]

And this starts to also touch on the relationship of your feelings and forgiveness. Because I think what the enemy would love is for us to continually not feel like forgiving or, or, or did I forgive enough? Or like. And if you take sort of the banking debt thing is like the banker didn't really feel anything like it was

[D]

an act and to telesize a banking term, paid in full. And so I mean if we all go to dinner and Adam picks up the bill, we don't go back and try to pay the bill again, it has been paid. And so what you need to do. Here's what I do.

[C]

All right.

[D]

There are some people that have sinned against me at our church and I have forgiven them and went face to face and they asked for forgiveness and I give them forgiveness and I see them and I get this little thing in me, this protective thing because my, I had family involved and I just, I take what the enemy intended for evil and I just run it through the gospel. Cuz typically I'm about to sing and I'm like, all right, Lord. And I just have to repeat the gospel to myself. I have to make sure my feelings submit to my Lord and remind myself again of the gospel towards me and forgiveness towards them. And this will be a thing that you'll do depending on the severity of the sin and how emotional you are. And I'm a super emotional person. Whether that's sad or Mad or whatever the emotions are. And you've got to constantly. You got to quit believing your feelings and submit them once again unto the Lord.

[B]

If you think about it, that's so common in every area of our lives where something is true and our feelings sometimes don't agree with it. But for some reason, this area of forgiveness, we're tempted to call it into question. Sure. Easily. Right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you. You have to do exactly that. You have to remind yourself of it and. And you have to go, okay, I'm just. I'm feeling a feeling for any number of reasons. You know, I could be hungry, I could be trick, whatever the thing is, but that my feeling doesn't dictate the forgiveness.

[D]

One of the reasons I'm excited for you to preach this, like I said, I'm. I get real. I can, you know. Yeah, I'm a real emotional preacher, too. You were one of the clearest communicators of the gospel and the text. I think it's part of the reason our people love you so much. And you also, when you came to 1122, you had already been a senior pastor for 100 years. So, like, you were in your groove. You weren't trying to, like, fit into a mold. Okay. But it is, It's. It's. We have different preaching styles, and of all the. I'm just thinking this is. This thought just came to mind. This is the perfect text because this thing is laden with feelings and emotion. And you, you are so gifted to. To choose clarity over cuteness and just clearly articulate these truths. And I think it's going to just. I think. I think the Lord's going to use it in a really, really mighty way. I think there will be a bunch of people that have heard me talk about this a few times, and they don't get it. And you're going to. God's going to use the you, and then he's going to open their eyes to see it. But I think there's. You said, what percentage of people do you think are walking around with varying levels of unforgiveness? I think. I don't know. I'm trying not to be shocked by anything, but I think the majority of the people on a weekend are shackled to some residue, you know, some misunderstanding, some kind of pop psychology views of forgiveness, and God wants to rip the lid off of that. And people walk in freedom.

[C]

Yeah, I think the one last. The other thing is if you can flip this around too, and go, a lot of this is Directed at, what do you do if somebody sins against you? I mean, that's the legitimate question here. But the truth of the matter is you. How many of us are walking around having sinned against somebody? All of us. And so if all of this is true, like on the forgiving side, then you can turn that back around and go, well, then it must be true on the confessing, repenting, asking for forgiveness side. And so if you're hiding or feeling like, I don't want to forgive, that same gospel that makes you a forgiving person should also be the same gospel that makes you able to go ask for forgiveness in that. And so it should. I hope those of us that are walking around in sin feel emboldened by this thing to go ask for the forgiveness, because it goes much better.

[D]

So in James, chapter five, when James says, confess your sins to one another, that you might be healed.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

There's a bunch of people walking around, very unhealthy. It doesn't just. It doesn't only say, commit, confess your sins that you have sinned privately and personally against God Almighty sins that would include my sins against you. And there's freedom to be had.

[B]

Made me think of that when you said, bringing the other people with you is so freeing. It's just like confession.

[D]

Yeah. Here's the thing, too, man, about unforgiveness. It just. You're just locked up. Because if you. If you're like, okay, this is what you owe me, Vinki. Here's the reality of it. Unless it's cash, you can't repay me anyway. And even if it is cash, if you actually stole money from me, we can't get in the DeLorean, fix the flux capacitor, go back and you undo the thing you did that broke the trust. I can't go back to the ninth grade. I can't go back. If somebody lied to you or lied about you or you lied to them or lied about them, you can't go back. So the thing that you want from them, they actually don't even have the ability to, like, quote, unquote, undo it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So your options are hold on to it and die of bitterness, just ruin all the rest of your relationships. You know, it's that old. I mean, Saban is probably most famous, talking about, don't eat the rat poison and unforgiveness. Is that like, I'm going to kill the rats by eating the rat poison? You're the only one that dies, and then they just eat you.

[B]

Well, the second part of this is him telling this parable that illustrates. So convicting, forgiving people, forgive people. So why don't we end with what? What are some ways to stay mindful that we have been forgiven much? Because that's really the overflow of walking out forgiveness.

[D]

Adam will say this as much as anybody is keep preaching the gospel to yourself. And if you preach the whole gospel to yourself, you should start. You should actually start before where Calvin starts. You don't begin with total depravity. You. You begin with, I'm created by God for God. And that thing was fractured. And because Adam is my federal head, I inherited this sin. And if you can remember what you've been saved from constantly, like I say it all the time, I can't get over the gospel

[B]

that.

[D]

That, like the writer of how great thou art, I scarce can take it in. Like, please, often take a minute and just reflect on what he brought you out of. It'll help us have lenses, have a little more compassion on other people. And then the shorter you can keep accounts, man. So instead of waiting until it's just bad to deal with it, the quicker you can deal with it, the better. And back to your point about being a confessor. How much better does it go? Like, if again, since Vicky sins all the time, he sins against me, and I spend three weeks talking to Adam about how terrible you are, you know, And I'm building this whole case, man. It's really hard for me to build the case. If immediately you realize it and you come to me with a humble and contrite heart and you go, I am so sorry then, man. It is like you don't give me enough time to build my case against you. And this is what it means. We should keep. Too many of us. Petey uses this language a lot. So many of us are just kind of walking around with a scorecard. When somebody does something, you're like, oh, you know, you kind of. It's like the golfers, you know, they're always writing on that little pad, you know, and you're just making these little notes. And the more you can walk around with just that clean slate, the better.

[B]

Well, Ted, you're four under 336. Not good. Anything else? You. You'd say Pastor Adam, to wrap us up?

[C]

No, I. I think that's perfect place to end on this.

[B]

We close this in prayer.

[C]

I'd love to. Lord, if. As we sit here and talk about forgiveness and preached on forgiveness, I'm just so grateful that you have forgiven me. Forgiven us. I'm grateful that you would send your son while we were still sinners and that you paid the infinite price, did all the work, you granted us repentance, gave us forgiveness and you didn't just wipe the slate clean, but you adopted us as your sons and daughters and made us kids of the High King and Lord. We are forever grateful for that. Lord, I pray that we live our lives in light of that, that you would be so blessed by it, honored, worshiped, and we pray the world would see it and ask us for the reason for the hope that lies inside of us because of it. We pray it all in Jesus name. Amen.

[D]

Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.

[B]

You nailed it.

[A]

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