C (3:40)

And they're not rioting, not destroying, they're lighting candles and singing 400 year old songs to Jesus.

B (3:49)

Yeah. And so I wanted to talk about like what a little bit more like, what do you think God's doing in this next generation that's coming up dividing.

C (3:58)

People talk about this like unity of humanity is not a biblical idea. In Genesis, pre fall, the whole first two chapters about division. He divides light from darkness, he divides water and land. He divides humanity in the male and female. The unity that Jesus prays for in John 17 is only in and around him. That's what he's doing. Jesus talks a whole lot about wheat and chaff, tells a whole lot about sheep and goats. And so the, you know, people ask all the time, you think it's getting better or worse? I think it's getting way more clear. Yeah, it's getting polarized. Like, honestly, to be a cultural Christian used to be very beneficial. Like, if you sold insurance, ain't nobody gonna buy insurance from you. If you don't go to your local church, you better go to church. You can sell you some insurance. You could be a quote unquote good Christian salesman today can be very costly even just to identify yourself on the Jesus side of the ledger. Because we live in such a crazy society today that just to identify yourself on the Jesus side, misogynists and white supremacists get like almost immediately attached to that. You're like, bro, you've lost the story here.

B (5:17)

Right.

C (5:18)

But there's not a lot of cultural credibility today. And so I think the chasm between the loss and the found is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So when.

D (5:31)

Yeah, yeah. There's also a, I think a really sweet simplicity to it. You said I'm not a huge strategy guy. Well, I mean it's, it's, it, it's kind of simple. Like. Yeah, you know, my mind goes back to like great awakening kind of stuff. And you hear this stories of these like itinerant preachers out in the middle of this field with like thousands of people hanging out and people are coming to know Christ. You know, like the, the movement that I grew up in came out of the Azusa Street Revival in, on the west coast and there's this, you know, these stories about William Seymour was the guy and he was this African American, you know, he, there's stories about him preaching from behind like a crate in a barn and people were trying to get in the barn and he would like hunker down underneath the podium and just because the presence of God was so thick in there and pray and you know, there's a beautiful simplicity to that kind of movement. It's not like it's very, very focused. And when you describe what was going on on some of those college campuses, right. In candles, singing 400 year old songs, focusing on the things, you know, like, that's a, that's a beautiful thing.

C (6:49)

Well, the amount of people that woke up this week and said I should probably go to church, it's huge. I, I mean I haven't verified this, but I think Barna said last weekend was the highest attendance in, of church in American history.

B (7:08)

That's wild.

C (7:09)

Yeah.

B (7:11)

You say this to us a lot in staff meetings and I know we have a lot of church leaders who listen to this podcast too. You say that God's not going to send us anybody we can't disciple.

C (7:23)

Yeah, we shouldn't presume that he would.

B (7:25)

Yeah. You know, and one thing that we were talking about this yesterday a little bit was just all those people showing up to church. And our prayer is that those churches are ready to welcome these people. Can you talk just a little bit about that?

C (7:40)

Well, that's what happened after 9, 11, everybody went to church and then their suspicions were true. They're like, oh, I remember why I don't go back to that thing, you know.

B (7:51)

Yeah.

C (7:52)

Because if you, if you present anything other than the gospel, if you, if you do anything other than make much of Jesus, then honestly you're just going to waste people's time, you know, and so at least, I mean, they may come here and they may not like the preaching, and they may not like the music, and they may not like the lights, and they may not like whatever kids check in, but they're going to get Jesus.

B (8:14)

Yeah.

C (8:15)

You know what I mean? And so we can just count on that.

D (8:19)

I also think I was talking. I was in disciple group this morning with some guys, and one of our elders is in there in my disciple group, and he was talking about the worship environments this last week, and they were trying to get in. They were here at San Pablo and they couldn't get in, you know, and this is Rick Graham, by the way. And he's like, I just got to get in there, you know? And then they. They. They somehow snuck in the door. I don't know if breaking fire code or whatever they're doing. And he just said, man, it just hit me in the face. Just hit me in the face. And I think there's something also that's very, very powerful in the corporate gathering of the saints. The worship environment itself feels like something where you just walk and you're like, there's something going on here. There's something going on here that's different. So I'm. I love that, too.

C (9:13)

Yeah, it is. It is one of the constant activities of heaven. The elders never stop singing. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come. So when Jesus is praying on earth, as it is in heaven, that Christ exalting worship is a major part of that, part of what happened during COVID man, I'm telling you, the amount of pastors and people I saw just downplaying the necessity of the gathering of the saints, I was just like, I don't love to throw shade on churches, but I was like, no wonder God doesn't do anything at your church. I don't think you want him to. Y' all don't even care if you get together or not.

B (9:49)

Yeah.

D (9:50)

Which. To go deeper. Just. This is great for this podcast, especially in this series, but when you look back on it. All right, so we're. Right now we're sitting in this. The square footage that was allotted for, like, production space. And we designed this place before online, before all that. We opened it during that.

C (10:11)

Yeah.

D (10:12)

If you'll remember. And. And we had no idea.

C (10:19)

Right.

D (10:20)

We had no idea what was going to happen. And when you said. When Covid hit, you said we were having all kinds of doctrinal discussions about the validity of online church and all this kind of stuff. And you cut through it, you're like, man, we're doing it, you know, you said we're not going to, you know, we're going to do it. And so when we had resources to do it, all that kind of stuff, we had no idea what was around the corner. And. And then we live in Florida, in Desantis, you know, we had, we had people on the board.

C (10:54)

Yeah.

D (10:54)

I think right in policy.

C (10:56)

Yeah. Right time.

D (10:58)

And then what happened? We flipped the switch for online in this place that was retrofitted to make it happen. And we could gather together and we had some conversations about the philosophy of how we were going to present online church. And one of the things that we talked about was it's going to. You're going to give a window into it. And if you'll notice this, the way that we do it, the people that work on it are so great. Chris Brown and all these guys. It's about the gathering of the saints.

C (11:27)

That's right. So yeah, it wasn't me on a hilltop and no. You know, and the band recording music in a. The glass factory. We just did church.

D (11:36)

You hear people singing.

C (11:38)

Yeah.

D (11:38)

You see people singing.

C (11:39)

Yeah.

D (11:40)

And it's like this interactive thing and I think when Covid hit it was like, oh my gosh, there's people in a room singing songs to Jesus together. And the church was salty. And then I don't know how many hands I've shaken over the last couple years of people that that was their entry point into their relationship with the Lord through this church.

C (12:03)

And my conviction was simply this. Well, it's two things. I was reading that book, Team of teams. Crystal. Yeah. And it's about war. And he said we had the greatest fighting force of the 20th century fighting a 21st century war. That's what he's talking about, the war on terror. And I thought, oh crap.

D (12:20)

Yeah, I remember this.

C (12:21)

We were crushing campuses in person campuses. I mean we had it figured out, you know, but that was kind of it. And I thought, what if we're the best version of a 20th century church trying to disciple people in the 21st century. So I just was convicted. I don't care where you live. If you raise your hand and say will, will 1122 disciple me? Our answer is yes. Period. Well, what about. Okay, I don't know. I don't know. But we are discipling that person now. It's turned into. But we had 54 outposts worship through saturated with us. My father in law just texted me, bro, Randy Nicely just. I love it so much. He just. I just got home from 11:22 service at Lone Star Church. There's 20 people in attendance in Clifton Forge, Virginia. Y' all don't even know where that is.

B (13:12)

Don't.

C (13:13)

And there.

D (13:13)

Sounds historic.

C (13:14)

I can imagine there are 20 people in there that are. That they just said, will you disciple us? And we said, yeah. And my father in law, are you kidding me? This guy like made my daughter give. I mean, made my wife. And now he's just sitting in the service. Great. You know what I mean? This is crazy, dude. So I, the thing is we haven't tried to control it, you know, like I said, this was not a strategy for growth. This was a response to the spirit of God. And then even when covet hit, dude, I mean, the number of people like, hey, we need to stop construction. I was like, no chance. A part of what I was thinking. We employed 480 people that were working on the building that worked for Brad Bowen Construction. And these are blue collar dudes, man. And we shut the doors, they can't. What are they going to do? How are they going to feed their families? So we actually, you know, they had all these weird rules about like, oh, you can work outside. We just didn't put the doors on. So it qualified as an outdoor place. No, we literally, yeah, we would park the trucks close so you couldn't get in here, steal everything. And we just didn't put the doors on. So it qualified as outdoors and just kept everybody going.

B (14:20)

That's incredible.

C (14:21)

And then we, we actually never stopped meeting. We just moved it to Tuesday and recorded. And then the government came out with, you can only have 10 people. I called the sheriff, Mike Williams, he's not sheriff anymore, so I don't think he can get in trouble. And I was like, hey, dude, I know the president just said no more than 10 people. We got about 600 on Tuesdays. And he was like, can I come? I'm like, yes, but park your police car out there and don't let anybody shut us down. He's like, no problem.

B (14:43)

Yeah.

C (14:44)

So yeah, we just kept going, man. And here's why. There is nothing more essential than worship. It's like I said, it's like eating. I'm sure I heard somebody say this, but when you, you know, like when a tragedy happens and you don't feel like eating because you're so sad, I mean, you can skip it for a minute, but you gotta eat or you will not survive. So even when your soul doesn't feel like worshiping, you gotta worship your way through it or you're not gonna Survive for a couple of reasons. 1 John 4. Gretchen pointed this out to me one time. There's a kind of little throwaway verse. Jesus said, I have food y' all don't even know about. Yep, yep. And Gretchen prayed that over our compassion kids.

D (15:27)

Awesome.

C (15:28)

You know what I mean? God, would you give him whatever that was that sustained Christ? Okay. It's got to be some kind of obedience and presence of God thing that he's talking about. It's a. It's a man that live on. On bread alone, but on the very word of God. Okay. If you don't have the presence of God personally in your own private, you know, secret place, and then corporately, bro, you're going to die. And then. And then secondly, you know, Isaiah and the Psalms both say we become what we worship. And so if Romans 8 says that you have been predestined to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ, a way that that happens is by worshiping him. So anyway, you can't be in the.

B (16:14)

Room and hear all the voices together singing the things. It just transcends something in the natural. And it's really hard to put it into words, but it is that thing, like, you have to fight for the corporate gathering of the saints because something does happen. I mean, it's just. I don't know. Do you feel it, like, when you're leading worship?

D (16:34)

Yeah. I mean, this is. Honestly, I don't know.

C (16:37)

Does Michael feel. Yes.

D (16:40)

I don't know. The. The reality of it is, Ali, is. I don't know anything different. Like, literally from the time I was little, I have memories of being a little kid, like, leaving my Wednesday night. We used to have this, like. It was like Boy Scouts for young Pentecostal kids. You know, you wore the vest, got the badge, and all those kinds of tied knots. It was awesome.

C (17:03)

They're all spiritual gifts, badges. You had them all, I'm sure.

D (17:07)

But the speaking tongues one was the first one.

C (17:09)

Yeah, that was it.

D (17:10)

Yeah, but. No, but. But I remember leaving that. Those classrooms and walking in to this sanctuary, you know, and my dad was playing, you know, and my mom was involved. And I remember just being, like. I'm talking, like, 6, 7 years old, and just being overwhelmed with the idea of God's people in God's house making much of him. Like, I remember doing crazy dances, like, holding the hands around the side, like, doing these, you know, like, Oompa Umpa, Jewish, like, you know, like, victory march stuff. And I just sit there and go, like, wow, man, this is incredible. You know, and really, in many ways, this place has felt a lot like that to me. People come to the front, and they're working it out with the Lord in the presence of God. Like just today, you know, like, I'm up playing at the end. My eyes are closed because I'm into it. And then I look up, and it's just a sea of people responding to God's presence in his house. And I honestly, it's like. It's kind of all I've known my whole life, and I don't know that I'd trade it, you know?

B (18:22)

Yeah. All right, so this week was on it as well. And you unpacked the story of Horatio Spafford writing this, and you did it more in detail than I had heard, you know, with the names of his daughters and the ages, and they're like the ages of my daughter. So it just. I cried, like, five times in the sermon, by the way.

C (18:48)

Well, somehow distance, geographical and chronological distance makes it not feel real. You know what I mean?

D (18:57)

And so, yeah, well, this one, this story, I mean, you might say that's unreal. Like what Horatio St. Spafford went through. It is. It is a severe testing, and. And we get to kind of peek in on that and. And. And experience the fruit of that. But it's. It's not. That's not something I want to go through, that's for sure.

B (19:28)

Yeah. I mean, the second you put names and ages to the daughters, it just becomes real, especially for every parent in the room. And then when you hear the wife sending the telegram, like. And what'd she say?

C (19:46)

Only saved alone.

B (19:47)

Saved alone.

C (19:48)

What do we do? Or what do I do next? Yeah, I mean, so that's a good. Like, whatever. Just take out the first part. I got cancer. What do I do? My wife just left me. What do I do? You know what I mean?

B (20:07)

Yeah.

C (20:07)

I can't pay the bills. What do I do? And it's. When peace like a river attendance my way when sorrows like seed billows roll Whatever my lot. So whether it's peace or sorrow, whatever my lot thou hast taught me to say it is well, it is well with my soul. That's what you do?

B (20:33)

Yeah. That's wild.

C (20:34)

That's why I quoted Erica Trump. I mean, Erica Kirk.

B (20:39)

Yeah.

C (20:39)

As a. I mean, cards on the table. I don't think it's a. Like a mystery where I stand on all that stuff. You know what I mean? I mean, kind of the. Like, shots at him. Just show me the receipts, man. Like, I. People were just leading with politics instead of just a heart, first of all. But I just thought, so it's one thing to tell a story from 1873. How about from last Friday? Literally, you know what I mean? Like that's, that's, that's what she did. She, I mean she could write my husband just got assassinated. What do I do?

B (21:19)

Yeah.

C (21:20)

And she stands up and says all kind of things, but in that she says, God is good guys. God is good. And then she just said, if you will repent of your sin and put your faith in Jesus, you will be saved regardless of who you are. So she says so that, I mean the reason it's just a real life tangible example of a peace that transcends understanding. And she's still hurting. She's like, I don't have words to describe the loss I feel. At one point when she goes, my 3 year old asked where's dad? And I go, what do you tell? She's three. And she says he's on a business trip with Jesus. Like she's just, I mean bro. And then even tonight a couple things. One, about 15 rows back there's a guy that used to work for Everbank that got saved through the death of Mackenzie Wilson and he's here today. It's 15 years later. It's been 15 years. And I mentioned Lisa Phelps on the second row, man, she lost her husband in a, in a motorcycle accident and she's worshiping with her hands up. And I look at Keith and, and Tammy. Yeah, Kelly. They lost their 14 year old boy in this freakiest acc. Car accident and they sing with their hands up.

D (22:43)

Yeah. I don't know how this happened. Well, I do know how it happened but I've been walk. I walked with one particular couple through counseling and marriage and officiated their wedding. They went through a horrendous in the first year and a half they had a rare just genetic life limiting diagnosis, decided to carry full term and Abel Grace was born and you know, they were getting pressure to terminate the pregnancy from the medical community. They opted not to did a gender reveal and they. And then to this day Matt would say I wouldn't trade that time for the world. Fast forward. There's another couple that.

C (23:38)

Yeah, I called her on the phone anyway.

D (23:40)

Okay.

C (23:40)

Connected her to you.

D (23:41)

I walk out of saturated on Friday night and these two couples are talking to one another at the steps. Myrna had. Ms. Myrna.

C (23:59)

God bless. Ms.

D (24:00)

Sorry for all those you don't know. Myrna's the best. Had Set them up. And I was sitting there. It was an electric environment. And then I walked out into the lobby, and I was standing in the presence of these four people, and Matt was holding his little Kinsley. And I realized that I was in the presence of giants, just giants of the faith. And they were, like, saying encouraging things to me. And they would say. Both of them would say, right now, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Flip side, I'm in it with a family right now. I'm sorry, but it's crazy. I'm in a family right now. Same thing. Baby Mia was born. She's, I think, three weeks old now. They didn't think they'd bring her home from the hospital. And my friend is living every day. Mom and dad are living every day. They just had Thanksgiving today. They just celebrated Thanksgiving today. They had a feast because they wanted to have it before. And they don't know if she's going to be there tomorrow. And the thing was, Shawn, Sean was a nervous. I remember I went there. I went to their home a week after Mia was born, and they were a nervous wreck. They were a nervous wreck. Like, they couldn't. They didn't. They're still not sleeping great. But there's been some normalcy. And I've seen Sean just, in my text with them settle down and. And he's starting to see the time as a gift. And he would say, right now, like, right now, like, literally, as we're sitting here right now, he would say, I wouldn't. Like, we're gonna. We're gonna take this. We're gonna take everything we got. We're gonna be here until she's not. And we're gonna. And then. And then I've seen his demeanor settled down, and I've seen him walk in, like, peace. He's answering my text like, hey, man, how's it going? Like, how do you answer that text? How's it going? And he's like, man, we went for a walk yesterday. This is what I think of. Sorry. This is what I think of when I think about peace that passes understanding. And it's. It's happening in our. In our severe, man. It really is.

C (26:37)

And it doesn't mean that, like, Jesus didn't cry at the tomb of Lazarus. It doesn't mean that you don't cry when you. If you, like, some tragedy happens, you cry your face off. Yeah, you're in. And the pain hurts so deep. And yet. Well, it's what Billy Britt told Ryan. Brittany, man, life is hard. And God is good.

D (27:01)

Yeah.

B (27:03)

Yeah. And the kid pain, like, especially with Horatio, like, with his four daughters, like, yeah, the kid pain, it just, like, hits so much different, you know? One thing I want, I think it's so important. Pastor Joby, when you were preaching and then just now, like, you know the names of people, and you're a pastor of a really big church, and there are tens of thousands of people who come here, and you have not lost knowing the people who sit in the seats. And honestly, like, that is everything really. Like, aside from, you know, being obedient to where the Lord's calling us, how have you just. And you, too, Michael. I mean, the amount of families you walk with, and you could be spending your time, all your time writing songs and doing the thing, and, dude, Michael's.

C (28:05)

Serving the heck out of this place. All the weddings and funerals he's doing right now, honestly, everybody that asked me, hey, will you do my wedding? I go, actually, I know what you mean. You actually don't want me to. If you want to be served better, Pastor Olson will do it. And he'll spend time with you before, and he'll follow it with you after. He, like, takes the. His people on retreats, and, like, that's what you need. You really do need this. And, yeah, man, I mean, I. I just prayed for, I don't know, 100 people. You know, some of them are great. Some are just celebrating, and some of them are in really, really tough times. And, dude, when I. When I do that, when I have, like, a list of, like, maybe you're going through the following things, sometimes I might jot down a note or two, but I just. Look, I'm like, some of you can't get pregnant, and some of you have lost a spouse, and some of you are going through it. I don't point at them, but that's when people are like, wow, how do you connect? I just know these people that we've been doing life with for 15 years now.

B (29:07)

Yeah.

C (29:08)

But, yeah, I don't. I. If, you know, you guys know this internally, but I talk about the difference between a cowboy and a shepherd. And cowboys are really cool. But no cowboy knows the names of the cows. They just count heads of cattle. And cowboys are cool. Again, they're way cooler than shepherds. But pastors are called to be shepherds, to know, to care for, to love, to be willing to lay down their life for their sheep.

B (29:34)

Yeah.

C (29:35)

And so that's.

D (29:35)

That's the calling to your point, Ali, I. And you know this, too, because you're good at this. Really good. You and Wes both are good at this too.

C (29:43)

But.

D (29:45)

Especially in this environment when things are growing like crazy. You know what I mean? Like, it's growing. I mean, this last week was crazy, and this season that we're in is crazy. There is there. The. The Ivory Tower phenomenon is very real. Like. Like it's in this model. You can be totally consumed with spinning the plates, and that thing can keep you from organic relationships with people that are going through stuff. It can't. At least in my world. I can only speak to my world. Like, you could write. You know, we programmed services, right? And we did that together for years. But, like, you can spend your nose in basecamp and planning center and writing Ableton sessions and charts and. You know what I mean? And whatever you're doing, that's it in the meantime. And you're serving people through doing this, by the way. Like, you're doing the right thing. And there's actual people going through real life stuff in the seats. So you got to kind of like, engage in that stuff and keep it, like, cohesive. And what I heard you say, Pastor Joby, was like, man, everybody knows you're like, you can preach a sermon like nobody's business, and you're integrated in the lives of the people that are doing it. And so it's all very, like, it's very integrated.

C (31:14)

I did not get into this to stand on stages and preach on screens. Yeah, I got into this to make disciples. So I led a disciple group at 5:30 on Wednesday morning with a group of guys, you know, and we actually didn't do one Bible. All we did is the Shema and just say, how you doing? Then we pray for each other, you know, heart, soul, mind, and strength. I'm leading, I don't know, 28 retreats this year with just people from our church. Like about 30 at a time. You know, we just do Bible. You know what I mean? Like, I, we. We try very hard at this place to not let anybody just be a pro and not be a shepherd.

B (32:00)

Yeah, for sure. Have you all ever walked through a season where that peace that passes understanding. I love how you said it tonight. Peace of God. That does not make sense on paper. Have you ever walked through a season where you experienced that?

C (32:20)

Most of mine has been secondhand seeing it in other people. You know, I mean, by God's grace, there's not been. I mean, we've lost, like, grandparents, you know, like kind of normal things. There hasn't been firsthand major tragedies in our lives for. And so praise God. Thank God. So I've. I've mentioned three or four names before, but watching other people and, you know, like, when I think, is it Peter, like, always be prepared for. To give an answer for the joy that you have. I don't think that's like, you were smiling at dinner at a restaurant, and people like, can you please give me the answer to the joy? I think it's laid over this kind of stuff because, you know, he was talking to people that were being persecuted as exiles. And it's like when it freaking hits the fan and everybody around you goes, how are you even upright? And you're like, man, I don't even know. I can't explain it. That's the peace that surpasses or transcends or. I know this does not make sense on paper, but God is good and life is hard. Olson said, we worship a real God that gives a. Gives real peace in a really hard time. Yeah, that's it. So most of mine has been like, what you're talking about people burying babies or burying a spouse, and you just are like, dude, the faith that you are putting on display right now is like a buttress to my own faith because I get to the honor of getting to see you. I mean, you said giants, bro. These parents that have buried their babies, they're giants of the faith.

D (34:05)

Totally, bro.

C (34:06)

We are. We are freaking puppets up there. You know what I mean? Okay. You can sing good neat. I can preach good. Neat.

D (34:13)

Yeah. It's not.

C (34:14)

But the faith that it takes to. For Erica Kirk to get up and share the gospel. Yeah. And she knows a bunch of people hate her husband.

B (34:24)

Yeah.

C (34:25)

And she shares the gospel. That's some love in your enemies right there.

D (34:29)

Yeah. I think we go to a church that's. That's full of people that have. I mean, it's just full of people that have really, really hard earned wisdom, seasoned folks. And so, like, it's. It'd be hard to comment on a season when I know what I know in the community around me, you know? And that's a blessing, man. That's a blessing. Just. Just when you think like, oh, man, this is hard, you. You hear a story and you're like, holy cow. You know? But I love hearing them talk.

B (35:12)

Yeah.

C (35:12)

You know.

B (35:13)

So how'd you get to John 6? As you were studying and preparing on the hymn. Yeah, yeah. How'd you get to John 6?

C (35:22)

So that is my go to passage on what do you do when God won't explain Himself. So their confusion was around theology. But we can get confused when God won't explain himself, when he allows godly people to be infertile or godly people to give birth to a child with this is not going to live but 14 days. What do you do? And if Jesus were to look at you when everybody else is walking away because God doesn't make sense to them and he goes, you want to leave? That's it. He could look at Horatio Spafford and be like, you want to leave too, because I allowed your daughters to die.

D (36:10)

I think that there's this, you know, we have a discovering deep in culture here. And so there's many people who have been walking with the Lord for a long time and there's many people who have not. You know, and I think in if you're going to be a Jesus follower, you're going to go on a journey. And eventually that journey, it's going to start in a certain place and for some it, you're going to have some seasons where it feels like you just witnessed, you just, you, you actually did, you just witnessed a bunch of bread being broken and a bunch of people. You're going to get, you're also going to get to some places where you're going to be praying some really, really difficult prayers in the garden. And this is a part of being a Jesus follower. Like it's kind of like a Copernican shift where you kind of come to this reality that the world, you might even start in the place where there's so much joy in following Jesus that you're still convinced that the world revolves around you. And then eventually through God's grace and like CS Lewis is a great one for this, you know, but like there's this Copernican shift where you realize, you said it tonight, that God does not owe you an explanation. And it's kind of like you experience his majesty in a more in depth way than him allowing you to go through the rest of your life thinking that the point of his existence is to make you feel like, you know, like that wouldn't actually be good.

C (38:01)

The other reason I like to use John chapter six is because I can actually explain it. So what, what, what didn't make any sense to them in that moment is going to make sense post Last Supper, Death on the cross and resurrection. And you go, this is what he's talking about. So from the perspective of the other side peering through the empty tomb, past the table to the John 6 Discord, when they're like Whoa, this is a hard teaching. We all can go. Like, I can help you understand it. Okay, so if we can get our mind around that one, apply that same kind of logic that God one day what's going to happen is when we get to heaven and we see, we'll be like, oh, for the glory of God. What the enemy intended for evil, you intended for good, you did it again. And somehow we see clearly and we fall down at his feet and be like, holy, holy, holy is Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come. Yeah, just like this. Like again, we don't get hung up on John 6 because it makes sense because we're on the other side of the resurrection. When you get on the other side of the consummation of all things, then you're going to be like, oh, so this is how God used the devil prowling around like a roaring lion for his own glory.

B (39:29)

It's kind of a silly follow up question, but why do you think God holds back giving us the full explanation of stuff like this?

C (39:40)

You know, Jesus has the audacity to be like, because the disciples will ask that question, do you teach in parables? And he's like, because they might hear and understand, like, well, ain't that the point? Nah, man, you're saved by faith, not explanation, not excel spreadsheets. Like, you gotta trust me. Or like, and I am not a math problem. And if I just gave you the answer to the math problem, you wouldn't actually trust me. So I gotta, I'm gonna woo your heart to me and see, not am I just useful to not go to hell, but am I beautiful? Do you love me? That's the fundamental difference.

B (40:19)

That's so good.

D (40:21)

Yeah. The answer is continually abiding. And so we're so sideways that if we think we got the answer, we'll just stop abiding. You know what I mean? But the answer is, till that garden, man, continually abiding. It made me think about what you were saying about your, your, you know, the way this whole conversation started, you were like, I'm just sitting out in the woods and I'm asking the Lord these questions. Well, it sounds a lot like John, like apart from me you can do nothing right. If you abide in me, you will bear much fruit and it'll be pleasing to my father. So I think what we're seeing is just, you know, in the, in the church at large is fruit from that thing of us just pulling into, not trying to do the thing with our own strength. Man. I Don't want to go to the church. I don't want to work at the church with a bunch of people that have got it all figured out. When I read the Book of Acts, I just don't see it. I see a bunch of uneducated, you know what I mean, guys, they're not making dumb decisions, but they're certainly not like, you know what I mean? They're like holding on for dear life. And the spirit of God is just like, just exponentially blowing this thing off the doors and they're trying to catch up.

C (41:49)

And then God does save a strategic guy with a law degree. Knows how to build a thing. Knows how to run a thing. Genius in Paul, Saul turning Paul. And then even he is so spirit led. He's like, I'm gonna go to Asia. Because you know how, bro? If we get this church going into Asia, it's gangbusters. And then he's like, dang it, Spirit won't let me go to Asia. Then angels show up in the night. Let's go Macedonia. He's like, really? Okay. You know, like, I mean, he is so dialed into the spirit.

D (42:23)

Yeah.

C (42:23)

That he is completely spirit driven.

B (42:28)

And don't you think even, like, even if God did give us the answers, it might not even help? Like, I think about my toddler, you know, when she asks for something that I know it's not good for her to not have whatever it might be, maybe like a snack or something right before dinner. And she is in the most curious phase. She asks why a hundred times. So every time we get in down this road, it always ends at, I don't know, this is how God made. That's just where I always end. Because we start getting to like, the cosmos, like, it, it. There's so many layers to it. Like, why can't I have a snack? And you know, you're trying to explain it. But like, none of my answers actually help her to understand because she can't see the. Or understand the bigger picture.

C (43:12)

Yeah.

B (43:12)

And like, that's probably what would happen with us and God, even if he did explain, okay, why does this happen? He's, you know, if he's up there explaining to us exactly how it's all going to work, like, I still don't get it.

C (43:23)

So one of the things is interesting in John chapter six, when they're like, we can't believe this. He's like, what about if you saw me return to heaven? That actually is going to happen in Matthew, chapter 28. And those people, probably some of the Same people still doubt it, right? You know, like the, the story of Lazarus, the. Not the return from the grave guy, but the guy that went to hell. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Can you just let me out for a second? So I go tell my brothers and Jesus is like, dude, you're not going to believe this. But they're not even going to believe people that have come back from the dead if they don't believe the word. They're not going to even believe the resurrection. He's taught. He ain't talking about the story of Lazarus at that point. Right now, the Jesus juke, the parent Jesus duke move is Jesus asked more questions than he gave answers. So a great conversation with your daughter is like, well, why do you think? And just let. Let like, oh, because now. Because she's just looking for you to solve all of her problems, right? So you just add, like, like, just let her.

D (44:23)

Wes, are you listening right now?

C (44:27)

You know?

B (44:28)

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so how does this passage encourage us when we encourage us to trust God even when it doesn't make sense?

C (44:39)

All right, the amount of people that are. Have decided to walk away from whatever their perception of Jesus is, how's that working out? Because to walk away from him is to walk towards some other thing that is an empty well. Like, it can't give you. Like, find me the person that walked away from Jesus and be like, you know what? I found the answer. And it was this other thing. They're just. They're just lost. Like, they're still confused and they don't have a savior.

D (45:11)

Yeah, this is the. This is the place. This is why what Peter says in the passage you preach on tonight is pinnacle in our, in our understanding of. Of faith. You know, it's like, man, there's just really not anything else that's true.

C (45:29)

Right?

D (45:30)

I mean, there might be some stuff that makes me feel good for. For a little bit. There might be some stuff that would meet my needs. I would. My perceived needs for a little while. I could run that down for a minute. But in terms of, like, being actually tapped into ultimate reality and truth.

C (45:47)

Yeah. I think that, like the song to go back, we sing the first, third and fifth stanzas, whatever they call them. The reason that we can sing the first one, whatever my lot thou hast taught me to say it as well with my soul, is because of the second and third one. Because my sin, not in part, but the whole is nailed to a cross. I bear it no more. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord On My soul, like, it's the gospel grounds me and my eyes are not fixed. Like the. The boat wreck is not the final word for the spaffords.

D (46:22)

Yeah.

C (46:23)

We're going to heaven and there's the end of the story. All the darkness is going to be undone. All of it.

D (46:31)

Yeah.

C (46:32)

And that. And because of the gospel, so, you know, like, kind of you should sing it, like, do the gospel verse, then the heaven verse, so that you can sing the one piece like A river or Sorrows Attendeth My Way. That. That's. That's actually how it works out theologically in your heart.

D (46:54)

I was just thinking, like, again, back on some of these families, I did say, like, I remember Lennox baby. Lennox's memorial. I just said. Sorry. I just said time, time. Time will not be your understanding. Our understanding of time will not be the final measurement.

C (47:14)

That's right.

D (47:15)

Like. And so like you, I know that everything in the world is screaming at you that. That the way that you're going to measure, you know, why would. What. What sense does this make? What sense does this process make to make this decision to go through this thing? Well, when you realize that time will not be the final measurement of the value of when you see things through the kingdom perspective, well, then the whole game changes, man.

C (47:50)

Yeah. To take another hymn. We're going to study in a few weeks when We've been there 10,000 years, bright shining as the sun. We've no less days to sing God's praise.

B (47:58)

Yeah.

C (47:59)

And the difference in knowing your child on this Earth for 7 days and 70 years as compared to 10,000 times 10,000, it's like that.

B (48:10)

Yeah.

C (48:11)

And so as compared to what's going to make so much sense there, the hardest thing we can imagine here, like losing your spouse to an assassin or losing your child to a boat accident, will sing, this is crazy. Light and momentary. That's what's crazy. That's how big and glorious God is and how scandalous the grace of God is. Light and momentary.

B (48:39)

So, last question, with all that in mind, how do you stay the course of not being ruled by your feelings and your limited understanding?

C (48:50)

Yeah, yeah. Your limited understanding. And your feelings have to be gauges, not guides. That's it. There's no bad feelings. Ecclesiastes 3, I think, has been very helpful to me. Any funeral I do, I go there. There's a season for everything under heaven. And it mentions wonderful things like singing and dancing and laughing. And it mentions very hard things like mourning and crying, you know, and God gave you these things. To navigate life. But they don't determine what is true. What is true is that life is hard. We live in a broken world. God is good. And Jesus did not only come to save our individual souls, he came to make all things new. And the one that spoke the stars into existence is. He is the author. And perfecter means finisher of our story. And so the hard times don't get the last word. So I say this all the time, so get your eyes up off the horizon a little bit. You know, fix your eyes on the cross. Get them up and the promises that God makes. Yeah, and one day, man, one day he's going to wipe away every tear.

B (50:07)

Yeah.

D (50:08)

I think for me, you know, for whatever reason, man, this is the way I'm wired. You know, I, it's a, it's a double edged sword for sure. But I, you know, I came out of the womb sort of like an emotional, initial emotional processor, you know, and it's what makes you be able to sit in a moment and gather up, you know, whatever all that is that you can amalgamate it in and create something out of it. You know, whether that be a worship experience or a song or poem or, you know, whatever that is, it's, it's good. There's also a real shadow to it, is that it can, it can. The depth that you feel that thing and that you're, you know, you process it can, it can very, very easily take you. This is why, you know, the Van Gogh's of the world and you know, all these guys, just brilliant artists, but man, if you, you know, there's a reason why people buy their biographies because it's just an absolute train wreck, you know, and, but I think for me, you know, this has been so good because it's not especially the middle of it, especially the psalms. You, you talked about this today. I love that you said it. You said there's no absence of human emotion. It's just done in the right perspective. In fact, I would argue that if you don't go through the process of, of airing that stuff out for what it actually is in the presence of God, you probably can't get to the place where you can entrust it.

C (51:42)

That's Ecclesiastes 3. If you don't mourn, you won't dance.

D (51:46)

Yeah, right.

C (51:46)

Because you'll feel guilty about dancing. So.

D (51:50)

But if I didn't have this, if I didn't have this in its entirety, bringing me a sense of well rounded perspective on the nature and the character of God and what he's actually up to in the whole thing. I'd be off the rails, you know what I mean? I know people that get addicted to the feeling of feeling. I know people that their life isn't right because they're not feeling something deeply, and they have an addiction to that thing and it spirals. You know what I mean? Something, there's got to be some perspective, some truth outside of your own ability to process something that pulls you up and out of it. And for me, through life experience, even with the way that I'm wired, the thing that's done that for me has been grounding myself in God's word.

B (52:51)

That's so good.

C (52:52)

I think that's why Jesus says God is looking for worshipers that worship him in spirit. And in truth, it's like a sail in a rudder. You gotta have both. If you've just got a sail, if you just got the power, if you just got the spirit, you just get blown all over the place. But if you got a rudder, the truth, the word, and no power, no sail, no spirit, you're just stuck at the dock, where you gonna go? And so it's both and it's not either or.

B (53:16)

I love it. Well, thank you for this. It's a. It's a heavy one, but an important one, especially for the time that we're in.

C (53:24)

It's also. Let me just say this. You know, I love what James says. He's like, anyone among you sick? Call the elders. Anybody cheerful? Sing praise. Yeah, so these kinds of things, like, you might listen, because you listen every week or whatever, and, man, life is good. Like in my house right now, like, nationally, things feel very heavy, but you know, man, life's really good in my house right now. This is the kind of podcast that you bookmark somehow as a resource. And when the fallenness of man and the depravity of this world and the chaos of a broken system hits you specifically, you come back through it again to be reminded.

B (54:10)

Yeah, for sure. Will you pray for us?

C (54:14)

Father in heaven, we love you. And I thank you that we can know that you love us first, not because of our circumstances, but because of the cross and God also. Just know that right now we see through a glass very dimly and it's all scratched up and super foggy from our side. And, man, it is so hard to even try to wrap our finite minds around. And yet one day when we see you in your glory, then it's going to make perfect sense, because you are perfect. We pray it in Jesus name amen Amen.

B (54:50)

Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.

C (54:52)

You nailed it.

A (54:57)

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