Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Timothy Snyder
Episode Date: March 30, 2026
Podcast Host: Debbie Millman
Guest: Timothy Snyder (Historian, author of On Freedom, On Tyranny, Bloodlands, Black Earth)
Overview
In this profound and timely episode, Debbie Millman sits down with renowned historian Timothy Snyder to discuss the meaning and challenges of freedom in America’s current political moment. Drawing from his personal history, academic research, and latest book On Freedom, Snyder explores American misconceptions of liberty, the roles of empathy and morality in democracy, the dangers of wealth inequality and post-truth politics, and why action—from protest to conversation—remains a vital part of resistance and progress.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Nature of Freedom
- Freedom as the "Value of Values":
- Snyder opens with: “Freedom can't be understood as something which just happens or which is morally neutral. Freedom is the value of values. It's a thing you have to care about in order to care about other things.” (00:01)
- He elaborates that genuine freedom requires courage and is inherently tied to moral responsibility, not mere absence of restriction.
Language, Empathy, and History
- Learning Languages to Understand History:
- Snyder stresses the importance of reading sources and talking to people in their own language:
“If you can speak the language, the other person, you're more likely to learn more about them...if you can read in the original, each book that you read is taking you a step further into a whole culture, into a whole way of embracing the world.” (04:05)
- Snyder stresses the importance of reading sources and talking to people in their own language:
- Moral Upbringing and Quaker Influence:
- He reflects on his Quaker family’s focus on morality and empathy:
“In Quakerism there's a moral aura around everything...you already have, from the beginning, so to speak, built in the attempt at empathy... Empathy is also the beginning of democracy because we're not all the same, we're different. But if we don't understand a little bit about the differences, then we don't get along well enough to have a democracy.” (05:31–06:57) - He connects the decline of empathy to the dangers of authoritarianism and the erosion of democracy.
- He reflects on his Quaker family’s focus on morality and empathy:
Intellectual Formation and Historical Perspective
- Impactful Literature — A Wrinkle in Time:
- Snyder shares that Madeleine L’Engle’s novel was important to him because it:
- Centers on outsiders with access to different realities.
- Shows that even the hardest problems (in math and physics) can be intuitively grasped.
- Imagines better futures: “...it's imagining better futures. And that's like something which might seem trite, but it's something that we've really lost the habit of.” (08:15)
- Snyder shares that Madeleine L’Engle’s novel was important to him because it:
- Science, Empathy, and Resistance Against Authoritarianism:
- Both Millman and Snyder discuss how dystopian science fiction often predicted the coupling of anti-science and anti-empathy ideologies, a pattern he sees in today’s political climate. (11:26)
Turning Point: From Law to History
- Witnessing Eastern European Revolutions:
- Snyder describes how seeing the fall of communism in Eastern Europe made him realize the fluidity and unpredictability of history, drawing him away from law:
“The lock has been picked. Things are opening...for me, it was the chance to say, aha...there’s something deeper in the history of Eastern Europe than the Cold War certainty that things are frozen.” (13:06)
- Snyder describes how seeing the fall of communism in Eastern Europe made him realize the fluidity and unpredictability of history, drawing him away from law:
Understanding History: What People Did Not Anticipate
- Gaps Between Intention and Outcome:
- Snyder argues that history is about “uncovering what people did not anticipate.”
“One of the things that we do as humans is we...rationalize after the fact. As a historian...you see always the gap between the intention and the action.” (18:01) - He warns against presentist illusions: “It's really important to understand that at any given moment in history, people generally don't know what's going on.” (18:58)
- This provides a rationale for political imagination and openness to unexpected possibilities.
- Snyder argues that history is about “uncovering what people did not anticipate.”
The Illusion and Abuse of Freedom
- Freedom “From” versus Freedom “To”:
- Snyder makes a strong case that American ideology misunderstands freedom as mere absence of interference (“freedom from”) instead of opportunity and moral agency (“freedom to”):
“If we think that freedom is just freedom from, then we are trapped because we're not then asking ourselves the basic question of what do I want to be like? If I were free, who would I be?” (37:51)- This misunderstanding, he argues, is historically rooted in systems like slavery and ultimately disempowers people, handing power to oligarchs. (40:46)
- Snyder makes a strong case that American ideology misunderstands freedom as mere absence of interference (“freedom from”) instead of opportunity and moral agency (“freedom to”):
Trump, Oligarchy, and Post-Truth America
- Charisma or Sadopopulism?
- Millman questions the nature of Trump’s power:
“A lot of people call that his charisma. I don't believe that that is the correct word for it...I think it's something much more specific.” (23:08) - Snyder defines Trump’s appeal as “sadopopulism”—offering spectacle by which supporters see out-groups harmed:
“Trump gives people...a view of hurting other people more. That's one side of his appeal.” (23:53)
- Millman questions the nature of Trump’s power:
- Consequences of Wealth Inequality & Social Media:
- Snyder points to wealth inequality and digital manipulation as core, often invisible forces shaping our politics:
“Wealth inequality changes conversations, it changes concepts. It teaches people that life is about having a patron and being a client. It shrinks people's imagination about what the future can be.” (19:35)
- Snyder points to wealth inequality and digital manipulation as core, often invisible forces shaping our politics:
- Dangers of Post-Truth Politics:
- Snyder: “You've said that post truth is pre Fascism. And I think that means that Trump is a post truth president...Part of being a fascist leader is to say that essentially I am the truth. I embody the truth.” (27:02–27:29)
- He emphasizes the need for commitment to factual truth, and sees supporting investigative journalism and defending institutional truth as crucial steps:
“You have to say, I believe in truth, or at least I believe in the pursuit of truth. Or you can start with baby steps. Like, I believe that lies are not true.” (28:43)
The Role of the Media
- The Media as an Institution:
- Snyder critiques the monopolization of US news networks and the dangers posed by oligarchic or state-controlled media:
“We get the media that the state allows us to have... the overall monopolistic centralized situation is exactly what you create if you're trying to get to an authoritarian regime.” (29:45) - He points to the importance of investigative journalism and cautions against “two sides” framing, which empowers manipulators:
“Two sides framing never leads to the truth. And...it makes you feel like you're doing your work when you're not actually doing your work.” (31:39)
- Snyder critiques the monopolization of US news networks and the dangers posed by oligarchic or state-controlled media:
- Lessons from Poland:
- Snyder notes Poland’s private, American-owned TV news as a bulwark against regime propaganda, and laments the lack of a similar external check in the U.S. (34:39)
Freedom, Morality, and the Power of Protest
- On Character and the Moral Compass:
- Snyder insists:
“Things like grace or integrity or honesty are real...Our life is made up of these things just as much as it's made up of physical objects. And the way we interpret physical objects...depends largely on which values we have...” (42:23) - He acknowledges the reality of moral disorientation but sees engagement and community as sources of recalibration:
“When we get involved, we realize there are people around us who have very strong moral compasses, and they're—and the admiration of those people is part of the answer...” (44:41)
- Snyder insists:
- Protest Works—and Is Necessary:
- Snyder calls protest more effective than the alternative of disengagement:
“First of all, I'm going to start by saying...they are definitely more effective than not protesting...it challenges the sense that authoritarianism is normal. It empowers people watching the protest to take action themselves. It is a gateway towards further self organization into groups which take regular sustained action.” (50:22)
- Snyder calls protest more effective than the alternative of disengagement:
- Agency and Ordinary Citizens:
- When asked what citizens can do, Snyder is pragmatic and hopeful:
“Having conversations with people you think might be on the fence, paying for your journalism...Go to protests. Don't act as if everything around you is normal because it's not normal.” (53:11) - He stresses collective action: “It's very demoralizing when you think this is all on me to fix. But it's not all on you to fix. It's just on you to do the little thing that you can do. And if millions of people do the little thing that they can do, that actually will turn history.” (54:12)
- When asked what citizens can do, Snyder is pragmatic and hopeful:
Noteworthy Quotes
- “Freedom is the value of values. It's a thing you have to care about in order to care about other things.”
— Timothy Snyder (00:01) - “Empathy is also the beginning of democracy because we're not all the same, we're different. But if we don't understand a little bit about the differences, then we don't get along well enough to have a democracy.”
— Timothy Snyder (06:57) - “One of the things that we do as humans is we... rationalize after the fact. As a historian...you see always the gap between the intention and the action.”
— Timothy Snyder (18:01) - “Trump gives people...a view of hurting other people more. That's one side of his appeal.”
— Timothy Snyder (23:53) - “If we think that freedom is just freedom from, then we are trapped... as soon as it's...just freedom from, you jump very quickly to where we are now, which is, okay, I'm not the problem. It's the black people who are the problem. It's the women who are the problem. It's the immigrants. Somebody else is the problem, Right?...just freedom from is a trap.”
— Timothy Snyder (37:51) - “Things like grace or integrity or honesty are real...the combination is your character.”
— Timothy Snyder (42:23) - “It's not all on you to fix. It's just on you to do the little thing that you can do. And if millions of people do the little thing that they can do, that actually will turn history.”
— Timothy Snyder (54:12)
Recommended Listening Timestamps
- Defining Freedom (00:01, 37:51–40:36)
- Quaker Influence & Empathy (05:31–06:57)
- Impact of Literature (A Wrinkle in Time) (08:05–09:36)
- Turning Point: East European History (13:06–17:24)
- Trump, Oligarchy, Post-Truth (19:35–28:43)
- Media’s Role & Polish Example (29:45–35:45)
- Freedom From vs. Freedom To/Slavery Roots (37:51–42:04)
- Morality and Engagement (44:32–46:19)
- Protest, Agency, and Turning History (50:22–54:12)
Memorable Moments
- Snyder’s anecdote about dreaming in multiple languages (03:37).
- Millman’s reflection connecting A Wrinkle in Time and Interstellar as validations of love transcending logic (09:36).
- Snyder’s vivid recounting of writing On Freedom in Ukraine—some sections even in a bomb shelter, and with input from Ukrainian colleagues (35:45).
- “I finished it on a train from Kyiv to the Polish border. I took drafts of it with me three times to Ukraine since the full scale invasion of February 2022... So Ukraine gave me conditions, it gave me examples, and it also helped me to think out what I meant by freedom.” (35:56)
- The call to collective, actionable resistance: “If millions of people do the little thing that they can do, that actually will turn history.” (54:12)
Summary Impression
Millman and Snyder deliver a resonant, intellectually rigorous conversation about the state and future of American democracy. Snyder’s insights offer both a sobering diagnosis of the forces undermining freedom—oligarchy, misinformation, apathy, and the moral vacuum of “freedom from”—and a hopeful strategy built on empathy, collective engagement, and positive redefinitions of liberty. The discussion is accessible, deeply human, and practically oriented, offering urgent encouragement for both personal and public action.
For more on Timothy Snyder and his work, visit timothysnyder.org.