Big Wins and Bad Beats with Maria Ho

Summary

Detox Retox with Tom Schwartz: Episode Summary
Episode: Big Wins and Bad Beats with Maria Ho
Release Date: June 10, 2025

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Introduction to Poker with Tom Schwartz

The episode kicks off with Tom Schwartz introducing the theme centered around poker, aiming to inspire listeners to possibly adopt it as a new hobby. Tom shares his personal journey, recounting his first significant win in a Limit Hold'em tournament on Royal Vegas Poker during his college years. This experience not only provided financial relief but also ignited his passion for the game.

Tom Schwartz [02:30]: "I won second place in a limit hold'em tournament. I won a thousand bucks, and it just blew my mind."

Navigating Life's Uncertainties Through Poker

Tom delves into his pre-pandemic life, illustrating a period of stability juxtaposed with underlying feelings of being lost. The onset of the pandemic intensified his yearning for change, leading him to explore online poker and eventually immerse himself in the live World Series of Poker (WSOP) in Las Vegas.

Tom Schwartz [04:15]: "Better a life of 'oh wells' than what ifs, because if I didn't do that, I would have probably wondered and regretted it the rest of my life."

Introducing Maria Ho: A Poker Legend

Maria Ho joins the conversation as a hall of fame poker player and legendary commentator. She shares her entrance into poker during her first year in college, emphasizing the strategic and competitive aspects that drew her to the game despite not being athletic.

Maria Ho [16:00]: "I loved the strategy. I loved the competition. Like, growing up, I was not very athletic."

Decision-Making in Poker and Life

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around decision-making, inspired by Maria's TED Talk. They explore the parallels between making informed decisions in poker and navigating life's challenges. Maria underscores the importance of being process-oriented rather than solely results-oriented, highlighting how past decisions, even if unfavorable, equip individuals for future endeavors.

Maria Ho [10:10]: "We don't think about how we end up dwelling on certain decisions... we're going to take what we've learned from that, we're going to take that into the next decision."

The Psychological Dynamics of Poker

Tom and Maria delve into the psychological facets of poker, discussing elements like bluffing, intuition, and risk tolerance. Maria shares her unique strategies to exploit stereotypes in a male-dominated field, such as pretending to be more inebriated to lower opponents' guard.

Maria Ho [21:06]: "I overbluffed... they just kept looking at me and perceiving me, you know, as this woman. And they were like, well, she's not bluffing."

Encouraging Women in Poker

Highlighting the gender disparity in poker, Maria offers advice for women feeling intimidated by the male-dominated scene. She advocates for bringing friends to poker games to create a supportive environment and emphasizes that poker is accessible and enjoyable for everyone, regardless of their background.

Maria Ho [23:18]: "Bring a friend. It's just nice to be able to say, 'Hey, let's go play some cards.'"

Managing Wins and Losses

The conversation shifts to managing both victories and setbacks in poker. Maria recounts her biggest win in the WSOP Main Event in 2007, where she secured 38th place and a quarter-million-dollar prize. Conversely, she shares a painful experience of significant loss due to unfamiliarity with the game variant Deuce to Seven, underscoring the importance of bankroll management.

Maria Ho [34:23]: "I ended up getting 4th place for 27k. And it was awesome."

Poker as a Life Skill

Tom and Maria discuss how poker transcends the table, offering valuable lessons applicable to business and personal life. Skills like negotiation, risk assessment, and emotional regulation are emphasized as transferable assets cultivated through poker.

Maria Ho [26:01]: "It teaches you how to advocate for yourself... learning great negotiation skills in terms of taking risks."

Final Thoughts and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, both hosts reiterate the myriad benefits of playing poker—from enhancing cognitive abilities to fostering social connections. They encourage listeners to view poker not just as a game but as a tool for personal growth and resilience.

Tom Schwartz [53:15]: "You dictate the stakes, you dictate the terms. You can walk away whenever you want."

Notable Quotes

• Tom Schwartz [19:49]: "Nothing beats a woman's intuition."
• Maria Ho [25:12]: "Air on the side of aggression... be the aggressor."
• Tom Schwartz [52:16]: "Success is going from failure to failure without losing hope."

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Conclusion

"Big Wins and Bad Beats with Maria Ho" offers an insightful exploration into the world of poker, intertwining personal anecdotes with broader life lessons. Maria Ho's expertise and Tom Schwartz's enthusiasm create an engaging narrative that not only demystifies poker but also highlights its potential as a transformative tool for personal and professional development.

For those unfamiliar with the episode, this summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation, encouraging listeners to embrace poker as more than a game—it's a journey of self-discovery and strategic thinking.

Transcript

[Tom Schwartz]

Foreign.

[Maria Ho]

Schwartz.

[Tom Schwartz]

Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you are the sucker rounders. No? Nothing. Crickets. Yeah. You guys, this is a poker episode. And I'm thinking by the time this episode is over, you might have a new hobby. Yeah, a shiny, fresh, new passion. One that can bring you great joy, maybe even great prosperity. And you're gonna be good. A savant of sorts. But I need you to remember, you can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin him once. That's what I'm talking about. You know, maybe after this, we might be playing heads up at a World Series of Poker final table, talking about this episode. I love poker. I like to play poker. Poker. Nice. Hell, man. Can I. My first introduction to poker was back in, like, high school. And I remember I started taking it semi seriously, playing online in college. I was on this website, Royal Vegas Poker. I remember I just bought a new computer. It was 1200 bucks. I put it on my credit card, and like a week later, I was grinding it out. I won second place in a limit hold'em tournament. I won a thousand bucks, and it just blew my mind. It forever changed my brain chemistry because I had worked every shitty job up until that moment. You guys, I know you guys have, too. Every shitty job, grinding out 8 hour shifts, 10 hour shifts. I was sitting in a chair drinking beer, and I won a thousand bucks doing something I loved. And it just changed me. And if we can do some more story time. Are you guys down to a little time travel? Let's go Back to July. Ish. 2020. As we were all adjusting to the new normal, I think we maybe had, like, a foggy reckoning that life would never be the same. I was. Hell, I was still married. Beautiful wife, beautiful home. Yeah. Four bedrooms, five bathrooms, pool, hot tub, and a white fucking picket fence. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. I felt a little lost. I had finally watched Loss. Yeah, that loss. Polar bears, the Dharma Initiative, JJ fucking Abrams. I felt like I was kind of in the seventh season. Yeah, there was six if you didn't watch it. Seventh season. Me, Carole Baskin. I don't know, man. Things were starting to feel a little more normal. Toilet paper was back on the shelf. We just had our first Vanderbump Rules reunion. You probably learned how to make bread from scratch. Maybe your baby got baptized with a water gun. It was weird, but it was normal. I was happy. Maybe you were, too. But cabin fever was in full effect, Yes. I was starting to lose it and I was getting. I don't know, I needed to get out. And I found out the World Series of Poker was taking place online. I had never played before because that's always during peak Vanderpump rules filming time. But I found out it was taking place and I was like, you know what? This is my time. Every dog has his day. I want to be that dog. So I hopped on a plane to Las Vegas all mashed up. I remember there was like three people on the plane. It was very post apocalyptic, but I got there. You had to be. The reason I went to Las Vegas is because you have to be GEO located in Nevada to play because California. Let's not get into the politics. But you can't play poker online in California. Lot of red tape. So there I was at Terry's house. Shout out to Terry, that's Katie's mom. And I was playing my first ever World series of poker. $600 buy in Omaha, high low. First place was 90 racks. $90,000. I stayed up all night, grinded it out. I ended up getting 4th place for 27k. And it was awesome. I'm not gonna lie. You guys, have you ever just laid in bed drinking white wine in one, like 30K? Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. That is the power of poker. I'm not saying it's going to happen to you, but it can happen. It's the ultimate game of intuition and control. You don't have to be a wizard, you don't have to be a math wizard. You just trust your gut, learn the basics, hold your cards close, play the long game. Unlike reality tv, at this table, you can just walk away. You can even. This is a taboo in our world, but you can rip your mic off, walk away, cash out, anytime. You guys, look, if there's ever one thing I impress upon you or want to leave an impact, let me guide you to a new hobby. A deck of cards is three bucks. Yeah. Okay. You guys ever read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers? He posits that 10,000 hours of deliberate practice are needed to achieve mastery in any skill. Like, listen, take roulette. You can put, let's just say, 175,000 hours into roulette. Studying roulette, that's, that's 20 years wait, and you still won't really be that much better. But poker, you put a few weeks in and you're gonna have a good chance at winning. That's what I'm talking about that is the power of poker. So I'm gonna meet up with Maria, get some tips. She's a high stakes crusher, a legend in the game. Maria Ho. Yeah, I'm doing the damn thing. You guys, I'm headed to Vegas with a chip and a chair. People insist on calling it luck. First place for the Omaha high low tournament. $1,500 buy in is around 200 grand. Does it have my name on it? We're about to find out. I'm reto chilling. Yeah, Marie is detoxing. Yeah, we're in my favorite city in.

[Maria Ho]

The world, New York City.

[Tom Schwartz]

The Big Apple. Do you love it?

[Maria Ho]

I do love it.

[Tom Schwartz]

What's your favorite thing about New York?

[Maria Ho]

People watching.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, the best. You can go a square block and see every single type of human being on planet Earth.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Every demographic, a hundred percent. People yelling, screaming, honking, kissing, falling in love, breaking up.

[Maria Ho]

But you have to have your head on a swivel though, because like, you never know what's gonna come around the next corner.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. If you guys don't know who Maria is, she's a hall of fame poker player, legendary commentator, high stakes cash killer Ted, recent TED Talk. E. TED Talk Er. TED Talk er.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, it kind of sounds like you're saying Tik tocker, but yeah, TED talk.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm honored and proud to say. A friend, maybe kind of a mentor, but she's been crushing poker since way back in the day.

[Maria Ho]

OG which is another way of saying I'm old. We're the same age, Tom. It's fine. It's fine.

[Tom Schwartz]

I am.

[Maria Ho]

No, I'm not mad about it.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm old. You're. I'm old and busted your new hotness. But thank you. Thank you. Can we talk about your TED Talk a little bit? Yeah, I just watched it on the train.

[Maria Ho]

Okay, what did you think? Did you get something? What did you get out of it? Do you feel like you are better equipped to make good decisions? Well, it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Listen, first of all, you stress me out. Can I tell you why?

[Maria Ho]

Why?

[Tom Schwartz]

Because I learned from you, your TED Talk, that humans make on average 35000 decisions a day.

[Maria Ho]

Can you believe that?

[Tom Schwartz]

What the. I know I'm stressed. And just thinking about that, isn't it.

[Maria Ho]

Cork like it's wild. I had no idea.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's got me manic. 35, 000. Like if I go into a bar restaurant and there's more than like 15 things on the menu, like Cheesecake Factory, forget about it.

[Maria Ho]

Do you panic order too? Because when they come too soon to get your order and you don't know what you want yet, but you just, like, blurt the first thing that you can think of.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm like, oh, I guess I'll take the Buffalo Blasters.

[Maria Ho]

But those are good, though.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's best thing on the menu.

[Maria Ho]

Totally best thing.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, but I loved it. It was amazing. And very impressive, by the way.

[Maria Ho]

Thank you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Very impressive. Can I ask you. So it was about, like. Okay, it was about decision making.

[Maria Ho]

Yep.

[Tom Schwartz]

Not regretting decisions that don't work out.

[Maria Ho]

Yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

By the way, what's the best decision you made today?

[Maria Ho]

Meeting you up.

[Tom Schwartz]

What, Marie, what's the best decision you made in the past five years?

[Maria Ho]

Oh, five years. I think it was moving back to la. You know, I just love being there because all my family and my friends are there. But, yeah, I think what's crazy is we don't think about how we end up dwelling on. On certain decisions that, of course, are very important to our life and can impact it in a multitude of ways. But I feel like we as humans are always so worried about all of the what ifs, and there's just a part of our brain that needs to switch off and say, hey, we have the information we have on hand. We're not going to have all of the information, but at some point we do have to just pull the trigger and go for it. And if it doesn't work out, we've learned something from that, we're going to take that into the next decision. Which is very similar to how poker operates. Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

There's a lot of parallels.

[Maria Ho]

You don't know what you don't know, but once you know something, you best believe that you're going to adjust and adapt your strategy in real time so that you're better equipped to face that same opponent in the next hand.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. See, I feel like I just. Just having recently come out of probably the highest stake venture of my life, which you know about. Schwartz and Sandy's. A moment of silence, you guys, but.

[Maria Ho]

I. Pour a little liquor out, I'm.

[Tom Schwartz]

Gonna take a sip. Yeah, I like what you said. Or you talk about moving on after making a bad decision. Wait, wait. You talk about moving on even after you've made a bad decision? Moving forward, not dwelling on it, taking what you've learned and getting ready for the next challenge.

[Maria Ho]

Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I just. It was hard not to beat myself up after Schwartz and Sandy's because I put everything I had into that place. I really did. But is it fair to say you can't be results oriented.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Tom Schwartz]

My shot. I'm a shot taker. I feel like people. You guys, I'm talking to you. I feel like people in general need a little more risk tolerance.

[Maria Ho]

A hundred percent.

[Tom Schwartz]

Right?

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. I think, like, we're brought up in general, it's just human nature to be a little more risk averse. But I think that actually ends up preventing us from doing some of the greatest things in our life, you know, is because we're just fearful of failure. But, you know, we were just talking before we started recording, and you were saying how, you know, even though Schwartz and Sandy's did not work out the way that you had hoped it would, that doesn't necessarily deter you from going after something like that in the future. Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like the, the, the deck was stacked against us, if you will. You guys like that one? No. But uncertainty was looming. We were, we were just coming out of the pandemic. I mean, really, I was. Before then, I was a minority stakeholder in another bar. I had opened a bar from the ground up. You know what I mean? And we went for it. We went for it. We had a vision, we followed through on it. It didn't work out in the end, but better a life of oh, wells than what ifs, because if I didn't do that, I would have probably wondered and regretted it the rest of my life.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Maria Ho]

And now I feel like you're so much better equipped to be able to be successful in your next venture because of what you've learned from it. And I think that's also the other thing that I touched on in my talk, is that sometimes a bad result doesn't necessarily mean you made a poor decision. Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

I like that. Sometimes a good choice has a bad outcome.

[Maria Ho]

Yep.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. Sometimes a good choice. What's that quote from Star Trek? Oh, my God. Thinking of.

[Maria Ho]

I can't sometimes that one because I.

[Tom Schwartz]

Don'T watch, you guys. Jean Luc Picard. Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. That's not a weakness. That's life. No.

[Maria Ho]

Wow.

[Tom Schwartz]

You don't do your Star Trek references.

[Maria Ho]

I mean, I've never heard that quote before, but I like it.

[Tom Schwartz]

But. Yeah, there's no, there's like, listen, in poker, in life, there's no such thing as a sure bet. You guys. More risk tolerance.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can we talk poker a little bit?

[Maria Ho]

For sure.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay. I'm trying to help. I'm trying to help our audience fall in love with poker. I'm trying to help them find a New hobby, a new passion. I'm trying to help them fall in love with poker like we did.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes. I mean, I feel like. Let's do it, you guys. If you dig. If you dig reality tv, which, if you're listening to this, you probably do, but you're kind of already halfway to being a poker star. Yes. Like, poker is basically your favorite reality show. You can be the star at the table. And the drama. Can we talk about the drama so much? There's drama at the table. There's secrets, there's lies, there's cheating. Snap judgments.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

There's deceit. Tears of sheer joy. Tears of sadness, heartbreak, like everything you could ask. Collusions, reading people for filth.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes.

[Maria Ho]

Yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

Trauma bonding over bad beats.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I love a bad beat story. So, you guys, I don't know if you guys know this, but in the, in the, in the poker community, it's considered taboo to talk about your bad beats.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I love hearing about people's bad beats.

[Maria Ho]

Because misery loves company.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes. We're commiserating. Exactly. It's. It's a very human thing.

[Maria Ho]

Exactly.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can we come back to bad Beats, by the way?

[Maria Ho]

Sure.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, cool.

[Maria Ho]

You have a story for me?

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, yeah, I do. What. What does. What does Mike say in Rounders? People. People. Very often people don't remember their big wins, but they. In. In. In gruesome detail. They. They often remember their biggest losses.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Which we can come back to later if you're open to talking about that.

[Maria Ho]

Sounds good.

[Tom Schwartz]

But, yeah, it's like. It's kind of like every. Every hand is a new episode and you're both the cast and the producer.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And you're always the main character.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's what I'm saying. Playing poker has main character energy. I've seen, like, I just. The things. The drama I've seen unfold at poker tables. I've seen more growing men throw temper tantrums than I care to ever.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And wine and like, I've never seen so many whiny grown ass men in my life.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're OG you've been at it since what, 2005?

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

OG Grinder. Can we talk just a little bit about coming out of college?

[Maria Ho]

You went to UC San Diego.

[Tom Schwartz]

San Diego, yeah. When did you get the bug? When. When did it click for you?

[Maria Ho]

So my first year in college, I had a bunch of guy friends who just played poker on Friday nights, and it was boys only, so I was never invited. And I was like, no, no, like, we get to hang out all the Other days of the week, I am gonna come and play poker with you guys. So I just crashed their poker party, brought a keg of. I felt like that was my first buy in. My first buy in is basically a keg. I was like, let me in, you know, who doesn't want free beer? They taught me poker. I fell in love with the game, and I just started playing with them on the regular. We would, you know, drive out to the local Native American casino so we could play when we were 18. And I love the strategy. I loved the competition. Like, growing up, I was not very athletic. And so for all the people listening out there, that, like, feels like they have this competitive fire inside of them, but they have no real outlet for it. Like, that's me. Like, that was me. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is a way for me to compete and for me to kind of use my brain. But there is this physicality. Like, poker can be very draining. But I don't have to feel like I have to be a supreme athlete to be good at this.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. You don't have to be a math wizard.

[Maria Ho]

No.

[Tom Schwartz]

And it's like, that's one of the. That's the beauty of poker, Maria. You're. You're, you're tried and tested. You are a pro. But like, someone who's listening right now could. Could take a poker study for a few days, and in theory, they could sit down with you and end up winning a ton of money off you or just beating you in any given hand. Long term, you're gonna smoke them, but short term, variance is your friend. Variance, especially if beginner's luck variance, anybody can sit down a day to learn, a lifetime to master. Right?

[Maria Ho]

Right. And that's the beauty of poker is I think, you know, on any given day, you could beat the best in the world, and there's just nothing else that you can really say that about. Like, tomorrow, I cannot go on the golf course and be Rory McElroy. Like, that's just never gonna happen. I would be lucky to even be able to get the opportunity to play against Rory. But in poker, you never know who's gonna sit down next to you. You never know it could be the number one ranked poker player in the world, and that day you might just end up being the better player.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. You're never going to beat Steph Curry in a three competition. You know what I mean? But you can sit down with the goats, with Phil Ivey, Phil Hellmuth, Maria Ho, whoever you love. Chris Moneymaker and You can, you can beat them. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tom Schwartz]

Are you guys writing this down?

[Maria Ho]

I hope to see all of these people out at the tables next time I'm there. Because the other thing is, you know, of course, being in such a male dominated game, women account for about 3% of all poker players. And I've always felt like innately as a woman, I've had really great kind of intuition and ability to read players. That's really helped me, you know, that's kind of like my secret sauce and my X factor in the game is just being able to kind of read my opponents. This is, listen to this analogy. This is what I always tell people. Like, you know how when, when a guy will ask, like, your boyfriend will be like, he, are you mad at me? And like, women are so good at hiding their emotions. And women, you, you won't know that a woman's mad at you unless she wants you to know. Like, she'll be like, no, everything's fine. But then she gets funny.

[Tom Schwartz]

How? Inside joke. Sorry, you guys get that one.

[Maria Ho]

So, so, so I feel like with men, though, there's, they're so much more transparent. Like, I can always tell when a guy is lying to me, but I actually have a lot of problems telling when, like, a woman is trying to deceive me. And like poker, when I'm faced against a sea of men, I feel like I can detect a little bit of like, oh, I think that's some bluffing energy right there. I think they're trying to be, you know, deceptive. And so I think, like, naturally we're kind of more inclined to be in tune with those emotions a lot more and hide them, which is also a very important part of the game as well.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes. I mean, it is analytical, it's mathematical, but intuition is a huge part of it. And nothing beats a woman's intuition, right?

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, you got to lean into it in poker.

[Tom Schwartz]

Early on, early on, when you first started out, back in the day, dudes, male players, they, they did, they underestimate you just because you're a woman, 100%.

[Maria Ho]

And I felt like at first it offended me. Right. Because nobody ever wants to show up and feel like everybody is thinking, oh, this is. She's easy money, she's the spot. Right. Like, if you don't spot the sucker at the table, you're the sucker type of deal. And I feel like at first I was like, oh, how can I combat this? How can I make them respect me? But then I was like, Wait a second. If they underestimate me, then what I need to do is take advantage of the fact that they don't think I'm capable of bluffing, of making big moves, of doing, you know, this, that, and the other, and making certain plays. And so, honestly, I was just over bluffing. Like, I just over corrected all the way to the left of being like, okay, I'm just gonna keep bluffing until somebody catches me. And they never caught me because they just kept looking. Looking at me and judging me and perceiving me, you know, as this woman. And they were like, well, she's not bluffing. She has to have it, because she wouldn't. She wouldn't dare bluff. Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

So you. So it. You almost. You weaponized it. And I mean that in the best possible way. You took male machismo stereotypes, and you're like, you know what? I'm gonna flip the script.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Have you ever really, like, leaned into it as, like, in almost a femme fatale sort of way? And, like, maybe I. I mean, this the most respectful way, but, like, played a little drunkard or, like. Or, like, a little sexy or, like, flirtatious. I hope that.

[Maria Ho]

No, I'm not.

[Tom Schwartz]

Because you can explain it. Easy to exploit people at the table.

[Maria Ho]

Exactly. And exploit kind of their misconceptions and their stereotypes and preconceived notions. Oh, yes. Like, people who know me and have played a lot with me throughout the years knows I love a good drink while I'm playing, but I have really high alcohol tolerance, so I would, like, always pretend, like, to be a little drunker than I actually was. And, like, people would, you know, assume, like, oh, she might be playing too many hands now because she's drunk, but, like, truly, I would just, like, have it and, like, bet huge, and they would just, like, pay me off because they were like, oh, no, she probably doesn't have any. She's a little tipsy, and at the.

[Tom Schwartz]

End of the night, you're going home with all of their money, and they're.

[Maria Ho]

Just like, what happened?

[Tom Schwartz]

I got bamboozled.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I got bamboozled.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And I think, like, that's also the cool part of poker is, like, you know, the psychological aspect, but also just like you said, you can really use anything at your disposal in order to gain an edge in the game. And that's fair play. Right. And that's kind of cool because, you know, people are going to find little ways to kind of make people play against them in a certain way that allows them to exploit them and Capitalize on it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes, so exactly. By the way, ladies, I know there's a lot of you I hope to hang.

[Maria Ho]

Look at you go into that, like the deep.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, I usually do, like this type of voice.

[Maria Ho]

Sexual voice.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. How about some advice to women who are a little intimidated to start poker? Like we said, a day to learn, lifetime to master. But really, can you give some advice to women who feel a little intimidated about coming into a very male dominated field? Right.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, it's totally natural to feel intimidated, not just by the environment, but also because there's a lot of kind of rules to learn about poker. You know, when you show up to a card room, it's like, okay, where do I get chips from? How do I sit down? Where do I sit? You know, so all of that can just feel intimidating. But I always say, like, bring a friend. Because my first poker experience, I got to go with a group of buddies who, you know, they didn't really know their way around either. But like, we were all trying to figure it out together. And I also think that, you know, it's just so nice to be able to say, like, hey, you know, when we have girls nights, instead of just, you know, going out and having a drink, maybe let's go play some cards. You know, just switch things up a little bit and just like, be the person to bring that idea to your friends. And I think everything's a little bit easier when we're all kind of in it together and we're trying something new at the same time and learning a new skill, like above all else, you know. Yes, it's fun. Yes, it's a great game, but you're.

[Tom Schwartz]

Actually learning it can be profitable. Sorry to cut you.

[Maria Ho]

Yes, it could be profitable. And you're learning a new skill. And I think that's so, it's. It's so fun for people, I think, to learn something and to do something and to try something they've never done before. So maybe they've just never thought of poker that way.

[Tom Schwartz]

But I love that. I think, yeah. The takeaways start in a safe place with your friends. You guys, a deck of cards is three bucks for your local gas station.

[Maria Ho]

Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

And yeah, you guys, there's so. There's so many great. It's. There's never been a better time to learn how to play poker. There's so many great resources.

[Maria Ho]

Yes, yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

So many chat, GPT books, books on books of books, YouTube university.

[Maria Ho]

Huh?

[Tom Schwartz]

Right. What else?

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

So, all right, if someone's listening, like, okay, I want to start. What do you think's the best resource or the best book or a great way just to like, sort of dip your. Your toe in the water?

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. I think something that would be kind of entertaining to someone who's never really played poker before is maybe just even watching a live stream of poker. You know, just having it on in the background, throw it up in the background, kind of watch what people are doing and listen and just, you know, get into the vibe of how the game is playing played. You know, you don't need to delve into that deep strategy stuff right away.

[Tom Schwartz]

But just like, don't even worry about GTO right now.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, no, not at all. You know, I think there's a time and a place for that. But when you're just getting into the game, like, I think it's just cool to see people playing and kind of understand how it really works, you know? No, a lot of people have never even seen poker being played before.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. And once you do learn it, not only is it fun, potentially lucrative, life changing, but also I feel like it's a great business skill.

[Maria Ho]

Yes, right. Yes. Okay. So I've been talking to a lot of women. I've actually taught a lot of seminars about this, about how poker is very much like golf in the corporate world, where it becomes a boys club because, you know, after work, networking events and things like that, they always involve some type of activity. And a lot of times I think the men just assume that the women either don't like the activity or don't know how to do it right. But how cool would that be if, you know, you were the one in your workplace to suggesting, hey, for this month's networking activity, let's play poker. And I think it teaches you a lot of things. It teaches you how to advocate for yourself. I think, because the way that poker works and just having to kind of be at a table, that feels a little adversarial. You have to kind of stand up for yourself more sometimes, you know, there's certain rules in place that you have to be like, okay, you know, making sure that things are operating the way they're supposed to, but also learning great negotiation skills in terms of taking risks. You're basically leveraging risk all the time in poker the way that you would in a lot of other environments, right. In your career, you know, trying to, to get a raise, you know, learning how to kind of say, okay, these are the qualities that I bring to the table. And to have somebody see that they should take the risk on you as well.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. Honestly, you guys, are you writing this down? Are you listening? A day to learn, a lifetime to master.

[Maria Ho]

Like, I can't wait to be at the poker table and have a woman walk up and be like, I heard you on the podcast, and that's why I'm here playing poker. You made it sound fun. You're doing the Lord's work here, Tom. Thank you, Maria.

[Tom Schwartz]

This is a powerful sentiment. I'll share with you guys. Like, so after college, I knew what I wanted to do, but I. It's a yada, yada, yada. I was scared to move to la, so I was working a corporate job. And inside I knew in my heart and soul that I could end up working a job that I don't love as long as I make decent money, knowing that I have poker as my passion and my hobby. Another outlet that satisfies. Excuse me. Satisfies. Sad.

[Maria Ho]

You got this.

[Tom Schwartz]

Satisfies me. Why does that satisfy?

[Maria Ho]

Some words just, you know, don't roll off the tongue.

[Tom Schwartz]

A hobby, a passion that satisfies me and fulfills me in other ways, maybe, that my job isn't doing. And that was very comforting to me.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

And powerful.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And I think it's just also about kind of having a little bit of an escape. And poker is like that. Poker, when you sit down, nothing really ends up mattering. Whatever worries you had in the day that brought you there in the first place, you're just really focused on the game. And also, it's very social as you're meeting all different types of people from all different walks of life, people that you might never have spoken to or socialized with outside of the game of poker. And it's just so cool. And you can really lose yourself in that world.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes. I'd say you sit down. I love the character aspect, and I mean that with the utmost respect. But you will meet people from all walks of life. It might be your mailman, it might be LeBron. Next to you, it might be a professional poker player. Yeah, it might be a. I don't know, Magic Mike. You sit down at a table, it's. It's, It's. It's a melting pot. It's a motley crew. And I say that again with the utmost respect. And it's like everyone has a great story and they're having fun.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

There's a very lovely, empathetic, human element to it. Even though you're. Again, it, on some level, it's adversarial. You're trying to take each other's money. Let's not get it twisted. I want your money.

[Maria Ho]

Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

We want your money.

[Maria Ho]

But we can all, like, with the commiserations of the bad beats, like, we've all been there. Like, I've actually felt bad when I've given somebody a bad beat because I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of the bad beat, you know? So there is this weird kind of camaraderie and weird kind of like, oh, yeah, we've all been there.

[Tom Schwartz]

Wait, Maria, I wrote it down.

[Maria Ho]

What?

[Tom Schwartz]

Mikey. Rounders remember. Okay. Jack King's Confessions of a Winning Poker Player. Poker players tend to forget their biggest wins, but vividly recall their toughest losses. You know where I'm going with this?

[Maria Ho]

What's my toughest loss?

[Tom Schwartz]

Sorry. I know you've. You've come so close to winning so many times.

[Maria Ho]

I've had a couple. Yeah. Yeah. I've kind of had a couple chances. Yeah. I mean, I think one of them has to be probably my biggest cash game loss ever. Ooh, that was a rough one.

[Tom Schwartz]

You don't have to say the number.

[Maria Ho]

So. Yeah. Okay. So it was. It was. I was playing in LA at Commerce Casino.

[Tom Schwartz]

Love Commerce. And the bicycle.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And there was just a. It was a late night. You know, it's one of those nights where it's like 2am Everybody there is stuck. Nobody is really there at 2am Willingly. Only if the game is super good or you're really stuck and you don't want to go home because you don't want to go home a loser.

[Tom Schwartz]

Don't chase your losses.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, yeah. Pro tip. Don't chase your losses. But that was me. That was me at 2am I was the big loser of the night. And I just decided to make it work because they were like, oh, we were just playing. We were playing Limit Hold' Em. And I'm like, yeah, Limit hold' Em. My game. I can play Lemon hold' Em. But then this other person sits down, who we deemed a whale, which in poker, a whale is somebody who is not a good player, a losing player.

[Tom Schwartz]

But has a lot of money.

[Maria Ho]

But has a lot of money. And. And the. The guy sits down, he's like, oh, I don't want to play Limit hold' Em. I'll only play if we play Limit Hold' Em. And deuce to seven. Half. Half. So deuce to seven is this other variant of poker. It's like, a little lesser known. So it's. It was so not known to me. That at the time I had never played a hand of deuce to seven, but I was stuck. And I was like, oh, this person's a whale, so let's just oblige and say yes. And so I played my very first hand ever of deuce to seven at the limits of 400, 800, while I was already stuck.

[Tom Schwartz]

You guys, those are just the blinds. So yeah, can we do a quick like. So you guys, when you play, when you play poker, usually eight, nine people at a table. The blinds you're in the small blind, the big blind, the small blinds, 400. The big blinds, 800. So every round of poker is $1200.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, so it was, it was not a good decision by me. So I was like, oh, but, but how hard could this be? And this person's a whale. So maybe I'll just lose all the deuce to seven hands, but win the limit, hold em hands in. No, that's not how it worked. It did not work out for me that night. Like, that was one of the only nights that I literally had to get up from the game because I had no more money in my pocket. Like, I did not have money for cab fare. Like, I, I literally emptied out like the lint in my pockets. It was, it was that bad.

[Tom Schwartz]

Did you have money for rent, for food?

[Maria Ho]

Oh, I, I think like I, I, I remember having a little money set aside for my expenses, but like, I pretty much blew through my whole bankroll.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, you guys, it was bad. Forget about all that. Let's talk about your biggest win.

[Maria Ho]

Okay, my biggest win.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, so. Oh, no, before that. Maria, can we talk about your first substantial win? Do you remember your first big. Because so Maria is really good at cash games and she's also really good at tournaments. Can we talk about one of your first big tournament scores? What it did for you and what you did. Did you splurge? Did you go, did you, did you jet set around the world, go gallivanting? Did you, did you buy a Ferrari?

[Maria Ho]

Okay, did I blow it on hookers? And that's, that's what the, the guys do not mean. Okay, so I graduated college in 2005, and then in 2007, I played the World Series of Poker main event to for the second time, which is the largest poker event in the world. It's $10,000 buy in. You know, there's upwards of, you know, at that time there was like 8, 500 players. Now there's over 10,000 players in the main event. It was my second time ever playing it. And I ended up getting 38th place for about a quarter million.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're the last woman standing.

[Maria Ho]

I remember someone standing. And that was my very first, first big, big tournament score. Like definitely my first six figure tournament score. And I just, it was crazy because that was six days of playing that one tournament. So first of all, it felt very surreal, but I was just so exhausted. Like my brain could not even comprehend how far I had gotten and, you know, how well I had done or how much money I had made from it. And it didn't feel real at all. Like, it just was like a haze. And then it was like days, days after when I, the check finally cleared and showed up in my bank account. I remember like going to the bank and asking for the receipt of like to see what my balance was. And I was like, oh my gosh.

[Tom Schwartz]

Maria, I know you were refreshing that bank. Oh yeah, that bank balance.

[Maria Ho]

I was like, let me frame this little receipt.

[Tom Schwartz]

Did you splurge?

[Maria Ho]

My biggest splurge, actually. It was two things. One, I bought myself this ring. It was like, you know, diamonds are a girl's best friend. I bought, bought myself a nice ring. It was like, it was like 15K.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes. We're not doing video right now, but that's a splurge. This is what I'm talking about.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, that was my big splurge. And then my other one was I took like a bunch of my friends on a little trip.

[Tom Schwartz]

So was it pear shape or cushion cut?

[Maria Ho]

It was actually like, it wasn't, it wasn't like a solid like one solitaire diamond. It was like a few diamonds all around, kind of like a band and still have it to this day. Every time I wear it, every time I look at it, I just think like, this is what that World Series of Poker main event money bought me. But yeah, that's amazing. The rest of it went to my bankroll, though. You, you know, you best believe I like wanted to roll that over to the next tournament. I'm like, let's keep going. Let's keep this train going.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, you guys, we're keeping it 101 here, but we'll save this for another episode. Bankroll management is key.

[Maria Ho]

It is. It's so underrated.

[Tom Schwartz]

I over leveraged myself in the bar by hundreds of thousands of dollars. And yeah, it's like thinking back to the bar. Not to go back to the bar, but it was such a big part of my life. I feel like, yeah, I, I didn't have proper bankroll management. I was.

[Maria Ho]

And a little bit of the whole. You just said earlier, don't chase your losses, and you kind. That's what you were probably doing, Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

I was playing a game that I didn't know. Well, let's just say deuce to seven, triple draw.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Juice to seven, triple draw. I went all in. Way, way outside of my comfort zone, and I lost. I know. Back to. But I'm still standing.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, you're still here.

[Tom Schwartz]

Still standing, Maria.

[Maria Ho]

And again and again. Let's just go back, though, really quickly to the fact that when you made the decision to go in on this bar, though, with the information you had at the time, it was a good decision. Do you know what I mean? And you need to be able to focus on that and be more process oriented instead of results oriented. Because when you look back at it now, even knowing what happened to it, you do feel like in the moment it was a good decision. Right. Like when you had all the information, when you crunch the numbers, when you talk to your business partners, like you. You guys really, truly believed that this was a good thing to be doing.

[Tom Schwartz]

At the time, we had the utmost faith. We had business projections. I know people don't. People who know me from the show, they're like, they. They think I'm kind of like a happy, go lucky golden retriever, which I am. But I do have some business savvy. No, we were, you know, we. We had projections for years and.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yada, yada, yada. It just didn't work out in the end.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I have a hypothetical scenario for you.

[Maria Ho]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

Maria. Someone who's listening right now or. No, actually someone you love and care about. They're like, maria, I want to be a professional poker player. And you're like, you're like. They're like, just listen, Just listen. I played in my local tournament last week. The buy in was 300. I won first place. It was 17k. And I think I want to take a shot at this. I want to have a go at it. What would you say to them in this day and age of 20, 25? What advice would you give them?

[Maria Ho]

I definitely don't glamorize poker as a profession. I think sometimes people watch poker on TV and they see people winning millions of dollars and just the highlights. Right. Very much like social media and Instagram. It's just the highlight reel. Like, that's all you're seeing. But that's not the day in, day out grind of a poker professional. You are not actually winning millions of dollars every other day. Like, some days you can put hours and hours of work in and still lose. That's the part that people don't understand. It's not always upside. Right. There are definitely downsides. And there are, you know, times when you will just be on a losing streak and you really mentally be able to be okay with the idea of playing your best, making good decisions, and getting unlucky. Because anytime luck plays a part, regardless of how small or how big a part, it's very hard for people to accept that effort doesn't necessarily equate to a certain outcome.

[Tom Schwartz]

Right, Exactly. And however, like we talked about in the intro, you put your 10,000 hours into poker, it will have a significant impact on your game. I'm not saying you're going to always win. Variance is a. But if you put 10. I talked about this in the intro. You put 10, 000 hours into roulette strategy. It's not going to make any difference in your game.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's all luck.

[Maria Ho]

Yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

Sorry, guys. There's no roulette strike.

[Maria Ho]

There isn't. Although so many people think there is.

[Tom Schwartz]

I do think I have one.

[Maria Ho]

Like, so many people look at the board, they're like, oh, there's a pattern in the numbers. I'm the only one to spot it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Wait, Maria, I've never asked you this. We've been friends a long time. Do you have any.

[Maria Ho]

Do I play in the pits?

[Tom Schwartz]

No, that's the next question. Do. Are you superstitious?

[Maria Ho]

A little. Not gonna lie.

[Tom Schwartz]

Is it. Is it sacrilegious to talk about it, or do you?

[Maria Ho]

No. I hate admitting that I am a little superstitious because it's like, it feels weird to like, believe that you're making your own luck, but then somehow, some other outside influences can somehow play a part. Do you want to hear the weirdest thing that I did? So in my main event, run that 2007 one, I just got really worried that if I threw away my trash that I would throw away my luck. And so that day, whatever I drank, whatever coffee cups, whatever gum wrappers, whatever food, I refuse to let the porters, like, there's these people that come by and take stuff away and throw stuff away, or like, obviously just like a regular human being. Maybe you should pick up after yourself. I just to refuse. Refused. I hoarded all my trash, like under my seat that hold that whole day's trash until the end of. If I made it through that day, then I would throw all my trash away. Same thing next day. It was very strange. I don't know. I've never Done that ever since. But it's weird.

[Tom Schwartz]

I've changed my mind. The takeaway isn't to take up poker. The takeaway from this episode is Maria Ho is a hoarder.

[Maria Ho]

I know. And a litterer. Apparently.

[Tom Schwartz]

I do superstitious things in my mind. There. There's no rhyme or reason to them. But if I'm in a tournament, I do change my underwear. I do.

[Maria Ho]

Don't worry, okay?

[Tom Schwartz]

Because I've heard about people who won't. Not just in poker, but in sports.

[Maria Ho]

Well, not just their underwear. Like they're all their whole outfit. I've seen someone play poker tournament, like a 10 day poker tournament, wearing that same thing.

[Tom Schwartz]

Have you ever. Have you ever. Okay, so you're OG Grinder.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

You've played the, you, you, you've played some seedy, dicey home games back in the day and maybe even still today. Have you ever felt like your life was threatened? Have you ever had a gun pulled on you?

[Maria Ho]

No, fortunately, I have not physically been threatened, like in, in that way, but like verbally. Sure. Like at, at home games. And also, you know, sometimes there are situations where, yeah. Somebody loses a lot of money and they just openly declare they're not going to pay. Right. They're just not planning to pay. They're so upset. They feel like they got unlucky. They feel like they maybe got ch.

[Tom Schwartz]

So guys, if you're listening, sorry. Just so they know, like sometimes in cash games, you don't need to have the cash on the table.

[Maria Ho]

Not at these home games you have.

[Tom Schwartz]

You get a marker.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

Which means you're good for your money.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. Quote, you're, you're good, quote, unquote good. But most of the time you don't really know how good somebody is and you don't know how much, how much they're good for. Right. Because sometimes in these games people start losing and it's very natural for everybody to be like, oh, yeah, it's okay. We'll just like raise your credit. Because they want, want to keep winning this person's money, but you really don't know if this person is good for more than X amount of dollars. But yeah, there's been times when people are just like, they get up, they've like flipped the table, they've stormed out, they like refuse to pay.

[Tom Schwartz]

I've seen so many table flips.

[Maria Ho]

Oh my gosh. People like, that's what I'm saying. We're talking about like just grown men just cannot handle getting unlucky, you know? But yeah, I mean, It's. It's. It's wild out there. It can be wild, but. But wait. Not to deter anybody from playing po. I just want you guys to know that in a traditional, like, casino card room environment, none of that is the case. Right. Everything's legitimate. People have to actually give money to receive the chips that they play with. But in the home games, of course, it's a little unregulated because we're supposed to be friends and we're supposed to all know each other, so we don't need to bring a bunch of cash to the. To a friend's house.

[Tom Schwartz]

But. And I love that you touched on that, because, you guys, it's a very safe time to be. Be playing poker in 2025. Back in the day, the 70s, the 80s, it was dicey.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Someone might walk in with a shotgun, give me all your money. Like it was shady. Even. Even 80s, 90s, even early 2000s. But home games, questionable.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, use.

[Tom Schwartz]

You know, use your good judgment. But like, you go into casino, there's cameras everywhere, there's security. You go to the cage, you cash out, you get your money. It's a savings, safe place.

[Maria Ho]

Right. It's just like any casino that you walk into for people who've been to Vegas or whatever. That's just the vibe. Like, you know, if you feel comfortable sitting down playing blackjack at Aria, then you'll feel comfortable sitting down playing poker at Aria.

[Tom Schwartz]

So, you know, I gotta ask. Pit game. Guilty pleasure.

[Maria Ho]

I love craps. Not gonna lie. Craps is so fun.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's just camaraderie is insane.

[Maria Ho]

Exactly. Like we're all rooting for the same thing. It can gets so vibey when somebody's on a sick roll. Like when they're on a sick heater. Like there's nothing more fun. You know, you got people chanting. Like everybody is rooting for that one person.

[Tom Schwartz]

If you're okay talking about it, can you tell us one of your sickest table game heaters? You don't have to talk numbers, but like. Like six figures or when. Where. What game was it? Craps. It was craps.

[Maria Ho]

I've. I've been. When somebody else has been on a heater, like they were the shooter and I just kind of bet with them. So I. I like by proxy. I have a fun story like that, but of my own. One time, I. I think I got like four splits and two doubles in blackjack. So, you know, it was like, I don't know, like 10 butts on the table, and I ended up winning. It Was. It was. It was crazy.

[Tom Schwartz]

How good of a feeling is that? Oh, so you gotta be careful here, Marie. I don't wanna. We're trying to inspire people to play poke.

[Maria Ho]

Not. Not the pits.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're not playing. You're not playing the house. You're playing.

[Maria Ho]

Exactly.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're playing the player.

[Maria Ho]

The pits aren't skill games. People like, let's just get that clear.

[Tom Schwartz]

There's an element of skill.

[Maria Ho]

You can. You can play the perfect strategy, but the house still will have a minor edge even when you play perfect strategy in a game like blackjack. But. But poker now is different. So we don't. We don't want to get it twisted here.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, we still. You guys are still with us, right? Wait, Maria. Okay, so someone's. They're still with us here. They're listening. They're like, okay, this is great. I love it. I have to learn poker. Crash course. But they have, like. They have, like, a game with their office, Their. Their company retreat coming up in, like, a week. What are some good tips for someone who's never really played? Like, obviously, you have to fit or fold. Abc, can you give a few tips for people who are. Okay, let's just say Martha has a tournament coming up next week. It's a corporate retreat. First place is a thousand bucks and a gift card to Outback Steakhouse. But she wants to win, right? She's.

[Maria Ho]

She wants a Bloomin Onion. Yeah. No, I get it. Okay. All right, so here are a couple of my tips. If you've just never played poker before and it's like, going to be your first time, I would say one air on the side of aggression. I know that it's not the natural thing to do, but think about it this way. You want to be on offense and not defense. So if you are the first person to enter pot, come in with a raise. Don't just call. Like, don't fall in line. It's so easy to play passively sometimes, especially when everybody else is playing passively. But try to be the aggressor. Try to establish yourself, establish your dominance at the table by playing more aggressively than feels comfortable. And I think that's like a good place to be. Second tip, fit or fold.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, aggressive, but tight. Aggressive.

[Maria Ho]

Tight. Tight. Aggressive. Hand selection is important. Like, I always tell people, it's better to play fewer hands than too many hands. If you play too many hands, you will get exploited for playing too many hands. Yes. If you play tight and you don't play a lot of hands, it might be less Fun for you. People might make fun of you, they might call you a knit, but you will probably make more money that way.

[Tom Schwartz]

What's a knit?

[Maria Ho]

I know a knit is basically somebody who just like doesn't play any hands or is like very, very, you know, like, like they're just very risk averse are people that are nitty. They don't like to gamble, they don't like to put their money in bad, you know.

[Tom Schwartz]

Maria, what's a fish and am I a fish?

[Maria Ho]

Well, you know, a fish similar to a whale, but like, maybe just less rich than a whale is someone that you think is a losing player at the poker table. But no to Tom, you aren't. Because remember how I brought up the thing about you hitting and running my pandemic online poker game? Tom. I invited Tom to a home game that I had with. Okay. I invited Tom to a home game that I was having with friends and he was like, yeah, sure, I'll play. He played once, came in one and it wasn't like nothing. It was like, you know, like fifteen hundred dollars. He came in wonder. Never played again. I never played again. You straight up ghosted up.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's called the hit and run. It's very taboo in the poker community. For instance, if you come in, say you come in hot, you're in Vegas, you win like a bunch of money off the table in like 20 minutes, you just leave. That's tap, by the way. Do it. I'm all for it, but it's, it's taboo, right?

[Maria Ho]

Like, it's just a part of poker etiquette. It's like an unspoken rule that you should like play a little longer and give people a chance maybe to win some money back. But there's definitely those people that are like, oh, would you look at the time? You know, after they win a big.

[Tom Schwartz]

Pot and they're out and like, oh my God, I just found out my mom's in the hospital. That's bad karma, by the way.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, let's not, let's not make up those, those stories to get out of you guys.

[Tom Schwartz]

If you want to see us play. By the way, I've played with Maria live at the Bike back in the day with please watch Randall's game.

[Maria Ho]

Can you throw up? You should throw up a link to that. To that. Throw up a link.

[Tom Schwartz]

I got called a fish after that. But. But what? You know what? I told you this earlier. We were hanging out in the lobby. That was my biggest cash game score ever. I think I walked home with 18K, which is a lot for me for a casual player.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, yeah. And I. And like, it wasn't until you reminded me of that that I was like, oh, I remember because like you got. There was like a few pots where you won that. They were like huge pots. And you got like pretty excited because like you would like flip for like, I don't know, like 5k or something, which is like crazy, which.

[Tom Schwartz]

You guys, I'm not a high roller, so to flip for $5,000 is insane for me. I really wish the cameras would have stayed up because after the cameras shut down at our live of the bike session with me, Randall, I think. I don't remember who else was there, but I think Tom was. Tom Sandoval. I think Tom was there a few UFC fighters. Anyways, we got crazy and we started. Can we, can we. Can you tell people what flipping is?

[Maria Ho]

So flipping is basically like. Well, there's two types of flipping. Flipping in poker, there's a lot of hands that are just like 50, 50 percentage wise, but there's also flipping where you basically just turn your cards up and you put the whole board out, the run out, which is like five community cards. And whoever wins wins the whole pot.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's gambling.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah, it's just basically gambling, you guys.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's taking all of the things we talked about earlier and just erasing those, nullifying those.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

And just saying, I hope I win. Cross my fingers. Yep, hope to win. Yeah, I love a good flip. Okay, you guys, what's the takeaway here? Okay, take your shot. Yeah, take, take your shot. Take some chances, you guys. If you have chips in front of you, you're still in the game.

[Maria Ho]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

This applies to business as well, for sure.

[Maria Ho]

Just remembering that, you know, there's chances to recover from bad decisions and mistakes. I think a lot of times we put so much energy and effort into thinking like, oh, if we make this decision and it doesn't go our way, then that's it. We don't get any more chances. But that's just simply not true. Right. I think you just continue to create more chances and more opportun opportunities for yourself. And also when you are more risk tolerant, I think it gives you that ability to get comfortable with the idea of losing. And it's important to be comfortable with the idea of losing because you're not going to win at everything in life or at the tables. And so once you kind of get comfortable with that, that fear and that fear goes away, then you're willing to go for it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. Success Is. Is going from failure to failure without losing hope. Hope without losing your momentum.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. No, I like that.

[Tom Schwartz]

That was some sort of regurgitation of it. Maria, any parting words for someone who's still like, it's like, it's too complicated. I'm not good at math.

[Maria Ho]

No. But that's what I. I think that's a bit of a. The misconception out there is like, that you have to be this math whiz. That you have to be this, that, or the other. I think a. At the very. If you distill it to just, you know, the, The. The very basics, poker is just a fun game. It's just another thing that you can do with friends. It's just another activity that you could take up. And if you get something out of it, if you get, you know, some type of feeling of, you know, oh, this is something that I could be good at, or this is a fun way to socialize, that's cool. Like, nobody is asking you to, like, decide to be a professional poker player tomorrow. It's just about learning something new and finding a way to maybe apply that in other parts of your life. Life.

[Tom Schwartz]

I like that. You dictate the stakes, the terms. Yeah. You want to play for goldfish, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

You want to play for a few shekels, it's up to you.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

You dictate the stakes, you dictate the terms. You can walk away whenever you want.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. And poker is for everyone, truly. You know, when we were talking about just all the different types of characters and people you meet, like, you will find anybody and everybody playing poker because. Because poker is universally something that people can find something interesting in the game that will capture kind of or speak to them in some way. And so I think that just speaks to kind of how well loved a game like poker can be. And I think people who've never played it before just have not gotten that taste of, you know what. How fun poker can be.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I like that. Love is a universal language. I think poker is too.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's a universal skill.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

100 unites people from all over the world and divides, divide and conquer. Before we go. Thank you for doing this.

[Maria Ho]

Of course. Thanks for having me.

[Tom Schwartz]

F you guys. Check her out. World class commentator, great human being. Crusher. Inspiration. You're not actually my mentor, but I'm gonna refer to you as my mentor. What's your favorite poker movie?

[Maria Ho]

It's gotta be Rounders.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's not even close.

[Maria Ho]

Is there any other, like, Brian Koppelman. You know, I know. I know that. He. He's been asked to. Do you know, when's Rounders 2 coming out? You know, maybe. Maybe one day.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Maria Ho]

He's gonna give us what we've all been waiting for.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can you leave us with the Rounders? Quote, I put you on the spot.

[Maria Ho]

You did.

[Tom Schwartz]

Listen, if you can't spot the sheep at the table within the first few minutes, then you are the sheep. No, that's not it.

[Maria Ho]

You're the sucker. It's close, though.

[Tom Schwartz]

We'll finish the way we started. Thank you, Maria. I appreciate you. That was fun, you guys. You gotta know when to hold them, when to fold them.

[Maria Ho]

Yeah. I hope to see you guys at the tables.

[Tom Schwartz]

All right. Thanks, Maria.

[Maria Ho]

Thank you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Bye. On behalf of this entire flight code, ourselves family, we'd like to welcome you to Las Vegas.

[Maria Ho]

Yes, we.

[Tom Schwartz]

Please remain seated with your seat belts fast and your seat back in your tray table in the full upright and long position. And I'll carry on and blinking still right where they're at. As soon as we get to the gate. Looks like we made it. You gotta know when to hold them, when to fold them, know when to walk away, know when to run. I wanna hold them like they do in. All right, you guys get it. Sorry. All right, we're off the plane. Just checked in to the fabulous Paris Las Vegas. By the way, not to get negative here, but you Southwest, you know what you did? Cutting me out of that SAG National. I think it was back in 2014, during the NBA Finals. I needed those residuals more than ever. It was a SAG national. My first one. You guys cut me out. Also, you can't even pick your seats on Southwest. It's egregious. And, yeah, I know you guys are changing that in 2026, but I'm not happy about flying Southwest. I'm still bitter. Not anymore, though, because I'm checked in. And, you guys, I'm here. I'm doing it. I've dreamed of this moment my entire life. All right, maybe since I was, like, 20, I've always wanted to play in the World Series of Poker. And now it's happening. And I'm here. I'm in Las Vegas. Yeah. It's the only place where money talks and it says goodbye. Nice one, Sinatra. But not today, old blue eyes. I'm chasing WSOP gold. The World Series of Poker glory. Fat stacks of cash, bragging rights. I love poker. I love it. We're doing the damn thing. You guys, it is hot. It's 97 degrees. I literally broke a sweat walking from my cab to the hotel. But as soon as you cross that threshold, you're kind of whisked, whisked away into this magical place. It's Parisian. The skies are painted like baby bird blue. It's so pleasant. I smelled smoke when I walked in, but, like, in the best possible way. And yeah, it just kind of feels like anything is possible in here. Lisa, Caesar's comp. The Rome Pandora. Thank you, guys. It's a gorgeous suite. Staying in the Versailles Tower. So gorge. I love it. I want to just go to the pool and drink a Patron Marg. But we have work to do. A bracelet to win. Okay. I mean, I'm not gonna say this is work, but I want WSOP gold. In case you guys don't know what that is, when you win a World Series at poker event, you get a bracelet. I think they're made of 10 karat gold. It's bedazzled with rubies, onyx, diamonds. But yeah, the value comes from its prestige. Okay, this is probably the most coveted, sought after Terminus tournament of the year. And I'm gonna partake for the first time ever. Yeah, I played online before, but this is live. This is different. You can smell your neighbor. Taste their fear. People are staring into your soul as you try to bluff them for all their chips. Yeah, though, wsop, it's not just another poker tournament, guys. It's a circus of chips and charisma, highs and lows. It's. It's democratic and it's dramatic. Yeah, you can be a millionaire, a billionaire, or maybe a mailman, an accountant, Maybe you work for UPS, I don't know. But as long as you got 10,000. Well, the main event's 10,000 bucks, I think. Buy ins range from $500 all the way up to $250,000. Me, I'm going to be playing the 1500 dollar Omaha High Low tournament. So last year's event, to give you some context, had a total of 928 entrants and it was event number four, Omaha. Eight are better. The first mixed game tournament of the summer. My first one ever, I think. The prize pool last year was 1.2 million and first place was 209,000. So, yeah, nothing to sneeze at. Okay. And in case you guys are wondering, I. Yeah, like, the reason I love it, it's just. It's got such a special feel here. I've played a million tournaments and they're all fun, but with the wsop, it Just has this magical aura. Like, listen, you could satellite into one of the events. I don't know if you guys know the Chris Moneymaker story, the money maker effect. He was an accountant from Tennessee and he satellite into the main event for $40. So he got a $10,000 seat and he went on to win the whole thing for $2.5 million. And the game of poker was changed forever. And that's the beauty of it, you know, you can sit down with the best in the world and still win. Long run, they're going to smoke you. But like short run, luck plays. Anyone can win short term. Unlike most sports, it doesn't rely on age or athleticism. Yeah, if you're a pro, you know, they study. These guys are wizards. But yeah, it's about reading people, mastering your emotions, surviving the grind. You, when you play poker, like, you can experience every emotion on the spectrum that humans deal with. You know, you'll see tears, fist pumps, broken hearts, dreams come true. It's high drama. You guys like drama? I like it too. It's like it's. It's a soap opera. Every table has its own little story. It's a little melting pot for people all around the world from careers all around, anything you can imagine. But it's just like we're all here chasing that dream. W S O P Glory. So, yeah, I'm already logged, I'm already registered. I'm just chilling right now, taking a breather, enjoying my room. But next stop is the tournament, so I'm gonna sign off here, guys. Wish me luck. Win or lose, I've already won. I'm here and I'm so happy. This. I feel like a kid again. This is amazing. I wish you guys are here with me. Thanks for listening. So I'm gonna sign off for now and I'm gonna go try to win this damn thing. Okay, Love you. You guys hear that? Oh, man. Well, I'm back in my room, my fabulous palatial room at the Paris Las Vegas freshly after getting knocked out of my first World Series of Poker tournament. Yeah, it was awesome. I don't know. I don't feel sad. I have some thoughts and feelings. Yeah, hold on a sec. First, I'm gonna do a baby shot of Patron. Okay, you guys do one with me. I'm reflecting. It's fresh here, so bear me with with me. But first of all, just getting to come back to my gorgeous little suite at the Paris here. It's cold as hell, 66 degrees in my room. I'm gonna watch reruns of friends. Room service is on the way. I got a few cold beers in the fridge. Blackout shades engaged. What else do I need? Fresh off of a filling. A literal lifelong dream. Dream. I'm gonna have to Google some inspirational quotes here. I don't know. Am I an L7 weenie? A lahu zaher? I don't feel that way. Right? I mean, like, just having a chance to play in this magical tournament truly was a. A dream, a wish come true. You know what I'm saying? You know, like, love. Better to have played and lost than to never have played at all. Yeah. Ah, I'm licking my wounds a little bit, but. Tis but a flesh wound. Okay? Like I said, the joy of getting to take part in this magical tournament far surpasses any sort of pain that comes with getting knocked out. So I think in total, there were 900 entrances entries. When I had left, I got knocked out. 624th. I know. Not my best showing. There's no shame. There was no shame on the walk back to my room. No agony of defeat. Okay. Right. You guys are with me. Negative energy is wasted energy. I don't know who said that, but I like the way it sounds. And it just popped in my head. Um, you know, one of my favorite lines ever is, better a life of o wells than what ifs? Okay, so I didn't win this one. I'm gonna win the next one. And if I don't win that one, I'm gonna win the next one. And so on and so on. Okay? So if you're listening to this, you guys, are you gonna take up poker? Have I sued you? Or at least not poker. How about just going for that thing you've kind of been fantasizing about, okay? A new hobby. One that you could maybe monetize in the future. Okay? And when I say going for that thing you've been fantasizing about, this does not apply to future serial killers. Just for the record. Okay, listen, I won't be mad if you guys don't learn poker. Start quoting rounders. Pay him. Pay that in his money. But poker really is a wonderful hobby. You experience literally every range of emotion. Sorry I yelled. Every range of emotion at the poker table. Sheer joy, elation, adrenaline, deceit, heartbreak. Just every emotion on the spectrum. But the funny thing is, you're not supposed to show it. You're supposed to be stoic. It's like. It's like. It's like live theater. But you're. You're internalizing all these things and trying to almost be robotic, ironically, as you're experiencing this full range of emotions. But yeah, I don't know. I had a really good time. I had a really good time. No regrets. But yeah, you guys, I really think you should take up live poker. Like I said before, day to learn, lifetime to master. Okay? And you can keep it fun, keep it light, but it is a cerebral game. That's why you see a lot of high level chess players going into poker. But that's the beauty of it. It might be. It might be your neighbor next door, John, who is a plumber, and then next to you is like, Tiger woods or, I don't know, Johnny Depp. I don't know why these names pop in my head. I'm just saying it's very cool. I love poker. I'm in my room and I'm going to decompress here. Thank you guys for coming along on this journey with me. It's been so fun. Tomorrow I'll wake up, I'll stay in Vegas another day, probably hit the gym, maybe the spa. And I don't know if you guys have ever stayed at the Paris, but they have the Eiffel Tower viewing room. I think I'm gonna go up there for the first time. I've been coming here, what, since 2008. I'm gonna go up there and check it out, bet some sports. I think Kyle Cook is in town tomorrow, so maybe I'll kick it with him for a little bit. Bit, you know, that sounds nice. Love me some Kyle Cook. I don't know if he's DJing, I gotta check, but I know he's coming. But, you guys, this has been awesome. Okay, I'm gonna sign off. That was fun and I love you guys. One of the great experiences of my life. Truly poker day to learn, lifetime to master. You guys with me, I'll.

[Maria Ho]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thank you. You guys, wait, one more thing. Okay? I was just laying in bed thinking about my experience, my first World Series of Poker, and I stumbled across this iconic speech from Roger Federer. If you don't know who he is, one of the best tennis players in the world. And I don't know, I thought you guys might like this speech. You can apply it to heartbreak, maybe opening a business and having everything go up in flames. You know, anytime you've taken a shot, put yourself out there and it hasn't worked out, you've lost. This is a nice one to remember. Okay? All right, you guys. Love you signing off with this.

[C]

The truth is, whatever game you play in life, sometimes you're going to lose a point, a match, a season, a job. It's a roller coaster with many ups and downs. And it's natural when you're down to doubt yourself and to feel sorry for yourself. And by the way, your opponents have self doubt too. Don't ever forget that. But negative energy is wasted energy. You want to become a master at overcoming hard moments. That is, to me, the sign of a champion. The best in the world are not the best because they win every point. It's because they know.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's how I remember that negative energy is wasted energy. I've heard this speech before. Negative energy is wasted energy, guys.

[C]

They lose again and again and have learned how to deal with it. You accept it, cry it out if you need to, and then force a smile. It's bigger than the court. A tennis court is a small space. 2,106 square feet to be exact. That's for singles matches. Not much bigger than a dorm room. Okay, make that three or four dorm rooms in Mass row. I worked a lot, learned a lot, and ran a lot of miles in that small space. But the world is a whole lot bigger than that. Even when I was just starting out, I knew that tennis could show me the world. But tennis could never be the world. I knew that if I was lucky, maybe I could play competitively until my late 30s, maybe even 41. But even when I was in the top five, it was important to me to have a life, a rewarding life full of travel, culture, friendships, and especially family.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's what I'm working on for this podcast, and I hope you guys are working on the same thing. All right, Roger Federer, if you didn't take that one, I'll leave you with Joe D. Dirt. You got to keep on keeping on, okay? Life's a garden. Dig it. Love you guys.