← Detox Retox with Tom Schwartz
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- [00:00]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Foreign. For your weekly detox with Tom Schwartz.
- [00:14]
Tom Schwartz
Guys, what is up? Welcome to another episode of Detox Harmony. Check. I was thinking we do another digital detox. I'm fresh off a lovely retox in New York City. My favorite city in the world. Thank you guys. If you tuned into last week's episode, I thought it'd be cool for the intro if we listen to the soothing sounds of my aloe vera plant. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, we had Plant Wave founder Joe Patitucci. And he created an instrument that essentially allows us to listen to movement in our plants. So lets fire up my aloe vera plant right here, see what she sounds like.
- [00:58]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Whoa.
- [01:06]
Tom Schwartz
Today on the show, Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, clinical psychologist, narcissism expert, relationship coach. She's the real deal. She's a pro and I'm excited to chat with her. It's been a long time since I did a therapy session. Hopefully it doesn't speak volumes, but I thought it'd be fun to do it with you guys. It's not going to be so much about me, just generalizations. Notably, why do people so consistently end up hooking up with other people in their friend groups? We've all seen it. I know you have. If you're listening. We've all seen it. Our friends, family, loved ones, favorite TV shows. Monica, Chandler and friends, Jim and Pam, the Office, I don't know, love and hip hop. Vpr. Obviously Summer house trending right now. For better or for worse, not looking good. But we're not gonna like dissect any of those. Just generally the proximity effect. Why do we do it? Shit, I've done it. Yeah, but we're gonna have a good chat about some other stuff too. Maybe just like a little refresher 101 course. What are signs you might be dating a narcissist? Red flags in a relationship. How to maintain a sense of individuality when you've been together with someone for a long time. You know, just let's riff a little bit. A Little Refresher Course 101. It's been a long time since I went to therapy, so yeah, I thought I'd take you along with me. We'll have a good chat. Like the Internet. I've been over consuming again lately. Insane headlines. AI taking over World War 3. Looming freaking alien hybrids mating with humans to create some sort of superhuman hybrid. I don't know, it's just. Yeah. By the way, every time I see the. The aliens are here, the top comment Is, do we still have to pay rent? Don't care then. And I get it, I get it. Unfortunately, we do. By the way, if you could use a little breathing room with your rent, stay tuned to the end of the episode. I'll plug RNPL right now, pay later. And, yeah, let's have a nice little shrinking session. I think it's okay to call a psychologist a shrink. They kind of shrink your problems down, make them more digestible. Okay, without further ado, let's. Let's meet up Dr. Jamie and have a little chat. Sounds good. Digital detox, here we go. Love you guys. Thank you. You guys were here with Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, and thank you so much for joining. Joining us, by the way. I appreciate it.
- [04:04]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
- [04:06]
Tom Schwartz
I'm excited, too. I got my little detox tea fresh off my trip from New York, which
- [04:10]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
is my, my coffee. I don't have tea.
- [04:13]
Tom Schwartz
I got. I'm a sucker for the TikTok shop. Like, I. I buy something once a day on there. This is like a liver detox tea,
- [04:20]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
and I need that.
- [04:22]
Tom Schwartz
I don't know if it's just placebo, but it always makes me feel better and a little less bloated after, like a weekend of over consumption. So we're detoxing today. Thank you so much for doing this.
- [04:32]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, my pleasure.
- [04:33]
Tom Schwartz
I emailed you this morning and like, the first thing I saw when I opened up social media TikTok was, yeah, it was Tim Burchett, one of our congressmen, talking about how he's confirmed that he's seen aliens and that they're real. And I'm just like, we've seen this play out so many times before, and you would think there would be a bigger reaction from the public. Like, the top comments are always like, this should be the biggest story in the world. But instead we're all focused on Kim K's new boyfriend, Lewis Hamilton, and their Instagram official. Now, like, that's getting so much more traction.
- [05:09]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I mean, I. At this point, if there's aliens, like, just. I'm good. Take. Let's go. Take me with you.
- [05:15]
Tom Schwartz
Beam me up. Beam me up.
- [05:19]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I think we're numb to this. At this point, we're so. We're so numb, we don't know what's real and what's not real anymore. And I think when we see these things, we're just like, yep, just another Monday.
- [05:29]
Tom Schwartz
I know, it's just. It's a hype word now. Overstimmy, overstimulation. And, like, I get it. I get it. I feel overstimulated every time I go online right now, by the way. Do you think. I mean, we don't have to do a deep dive into the alien stuff from, like, a psychological perspective on society. How do you think we'd handle it as a whole? I think it'd just be people, like, shrug their shoulders and be like, do I still have to pay rent? Do I still have to pay my mortgage?
- [05:57]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I mean, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. At this point, like, okay, so what does this. You know, honestly, I have no idea. I think it'd be mass chaos at this point. I think it'd be mass chaos. I think you'd have a group of people that probably would still be concerned about the rent, but I think at this point, it would just be mass chaos and everyone for themselves.
- [06:18]
Tom Schwartz
Just a complete breakdown of societal constructs. People questioning their religion, their faith, their humanity.
- [06:25]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes, yeah. Yes. Because that means everything, you know, until now is wrong.
- [06:31]
Tom Schwartz
Like, yeah, I don't want to go too much on a tangent, but I just.
- [06:33]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Matt Gaetz, you can spend hours on this.
- [06:35]
Tom Schwartz
I know. I love. I love falling asleep to alien podcasts and stuff. Like, one of our. Another one of our congressmen, Matt Gaetz, said that he got confirmation that we are actually hybrid mating with an alien race. Anyways, we don't have to go. Let's not even go there.
- [06:52]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I saw it. Listen, I saw it, too. I saw it, too.
- [06:55]
Tom Schwartz
I feel like aliens on Earth would be good for your business. Right? As a therapist, psychologist, there'd be a lot of existential dread, maybe.
- [07:02]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I think that. Yeah. On top of the existential dread that already exists, I think that that would. Yeah, it may be very busy, for sure.
- [07:13]
Tom Schwartz
Well, at least maybe, like a Bravo spin off.
- [07:15]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes.
- [07:16]
Tom Schwartz
With the aliens. I don't know, but this is cool. Thank you so much for doing this. I haven't been in therapy, and I know we're not really making today about me. I don't want to be. I didn't want to be self indulgent, but I just wanted to hang out and have, like, a nice. Is it. Is it. Is it taboo to call you a shrink?
- [07:34]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
That's fine. I've been called worse. That's fine.
- [07:38]
Tom Schwartz
Wait. That being said, that's fine. How are you? Who. Who do you. Who's taking care? Who's checking in on you? Do. Do your colleagues and fellow therapists go to therapy or do they have trouble, you know, taking their own advice?
- [07:51]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Generally speaking, that's the nicest question someone's ever asked me. Thank you. No, I mean, we listen, we check in with each other. You know, I have a group of colleagues, especially online. We all kind of, you know, just check. Are you doing okay, everyone? Okay. But I really rely heavily on my close group of friends. You know, we just. I play tennis a lot. I try to do as much as I can. I think everybody should be in therapy. I think the best time to be in therapy is when you're new, when you're not having a crisis, because that's when your brain's most focused and you can learn everything you need so that when a crisis does come up, because it will come up, because life happens, that you have the skills that you need, so it's not constantly playing catch up. So I think therapy is healthy for everybody. I don't think you need to have something wrong with you to go into therapy at all.
- [08:40]
Tom Schwartz
Totally. I agree that the best time to fix the leak on your roof is when it's sunny out, right?
- [08:44]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Exactly.
- [08:45]
Tom Schwartz
Exactly. Can I make a confession at the top?
- [08:48]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah.
- [08:48]
Tom Schwartz
I just want to be transparent. I don't think I've been to therapy since, like, 15. I feel. I do feel like it would be so helpful in my life, not only with my communication and my relationships, although I like to think I'm pretty good at communicating now, just in general, it would be nice. How often do you recommend for someone who hasn't been. Who's been thinking about getting back into therapy? What do you. I know it depends is probably the answer. It's subjective. But what do you think?
- [09:15]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I mean, if nothing. If nothing crazy is going on. I like what I call booster sessions. So people can be like, follow up once a month just to touch bas, just to kind of review what's been going on. Or more importantly, is there anything coming up pending that you think may be potential crisis and how to deal with it? And so I think that once a month, I think, is good. And then if things start to ramp up, you come in a little bit more. But I will say this, and I may get some, I don't know, slack for saying this, but if you're in therapy every single day for years, you're with the wrong therapist. Goal of therapy is to, like, kind of be able to do it on your own eventually with the understanding you can always come back. You can always come in for a booster session. But I think. I think it's helpful once a month. I like that.
- [10:05]
Tom Schwartz
I love that terminology. Booster session. That's easily Digestible, memorable. I need some booster sessions. That's okay.
- [10:12]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
You guys think about. You go to your doctor, you go to your dentist, you go to your primary care doctor once a year. Why not check in with a mental health provider once a year? It's equally, if not more important.
- [10:20]
Tom Schwartz
Well, I usually do at the beginning when we start filming a show, they do it. I think it's a legal liability, but it's also nice. It's really nice just to check in. And then I say to myself, why don't I do this more often? And I see my friends going through it. There's, you know, we're on reality tv, so there's, there's always drama, lots of scandals and stuff. One thing that I talked to you about, I sent you some questions and I'm just like, throughout my life, I have seen the proximity effect in relationships play out so many times. Like, I don't know, 10, 20 times. Like friends, family, especially here in Los Angeles. I don't know. Can we talk a little bit about the proximity effect and the psychology behind it? Can you just tell for people who've never even heard that term what it is in relationships?
- [11:04]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, so the proximity effect is something that you probably never heard of, but something you experience all the time. It's a very powerful force in relationships. And what it means is I always like to say our brains are lazy. Human beings have lazy brains. And so our brains love things that are familiar and predictable because it makes us feel calm, it makes us feel less uncertain, and it just kind of fills the gaps in for us. So what the proximity effect is, is it means that essentially you're going to gravitate and let your guard down and feel really comfortable. Almost this inflated sense of comfort with people that are in closest proximity to you. 1 Obviously, ease of access, but also because you're in this close proximity, you feel easier being vulnerable. Your brain is not on as high alert as it would be if you weren't in close proximity people. So you just feel safer and you feel it's easier to be emotional and it's easier to pick up patterns in other people. And when we can identify patterns in people, we feel like we can predict their behavior, which ultimately makes us feel cover.
- [12:11]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah, that's. It makes so much sense. And it's like, and it's like a form of almost like pre vetting. Right. You know, you like, you have, you have that established bond. I like the word you said. It's comforting. Even people know what, what always fascinates me is that People still do it even when they know it might jeopardize other friendships or hurt other people close to them, former exes, etc. I'm just like. Is there like a physiological intoxication or something along the lines of like, I don't know, just like the, the risk of it. The, the. The. I don't know, something I'm just curious about. Yeah, the. From a psychological standpoint, like why people are willing to jeopardize friendships and listen, I've done it too. I'm not gonna lie. I've been guilty of it in the past. Why do we do it to ourselves? Jamie. Dr. Jamie, why do we do this?
- [13:02]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
We self sabotage. No, because here. No, here's why. So there's a couple of things. You're right. There's a physiological and a neurological component to this, that when you interact with somebody that's comforting and familiar to you, it releases dopamine. Right? When we hug somebody, it releases certain chemicals that make us feel good and so we want more of it. What ends up happening is because when we have, let's say, your friends in a relationship with somebody, but because you're the best friend, you're also really close with them. The boundaries, and not in a bad way, but the boundaries start to break down, the boundaries become blurred. And so when you need emotional support, it's just natural that you'd go to the other friends. And so what happens is you take the close proximity plus the boundary deterioration, plus the dopamine hit, plus all of that, and you put it together, it can sometimes be a recipe for disaster that also tricks you into inflating your feelings for the person because the familiarity is so calming and comfortable. So it's almost like your brain plays tricks on you. And then what happens is you share the stories of the bad parts of the relationship and you may see another side to the person. You give other perspectives. Bottom line is then what happens is, is that that becomes so overpowering that it kind of really impacts your judgment. Because the familiarity feels so overpowering and so good that we kind of make excuses in our head for why it's not that bad.
- [14:32]
Tom Schwartz
And I've done it and I've witnessed it, like I said so many times, I keep seeing it playing out again and again and not to be kept in hindsight, but it's rarely worth it when you know it's going to end up hurting like a good friend, an ex, someone you love, you know, unless. Well, listen, I'm. I don't know. I don't wanna. I Gotta be careful what I say here. But like never to justify. Unless you end up truly loving that person, maybe even marrying them. But still, there's better ways to address it. Be transparent. Communicate to your friends anyways, it's easier.
- [15:03]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. None of this is to justify the behavior. It's just an explanation for the behavior. The other thing that I think is important too is you also have to take, take into consideration the personalities of the people going into it from the beginning. Right. That plays a very big role. Their past experiences and relationships, what they're bringing into the table. So it's not just that dopamine hit that becomes so overpowering, but it's also what you come to the table with and what your experiences are.
- [15:32]
Tom Schwartz
You know what? I like April. April's a good month, right? April fools. 420. I think it's National Poetry Month. Like it's a funny month because half the Internet is talking about spring cleaning and the other half is already planning their 420. I'm thinking both. Yeah, I love like a cheeky little pre roll or like a little gummy in a nice cleaning session. I get in there. Hands, knees, toothbrush. I am downright fastidious. Yeah. 420 is upon us. And that's where Indicloud fits in. Indicloud is your fully legal online cannabis dispensary for gummies, exotic flower premium pre rolls. Also don't forget the zero sugar THC sodas. Yeah, man. By the way, As a reminder, everything available is federally legal. Hemp THC lab tested and shipped discreetly to your door. By the way, this month, massive sale. New customers get 40% off. The biggest sale of the year. Don't want to miss this one. 420 got to be ready. I like that the holiday went from kind of a taboo punchline of a holiday to kind of a sacred, you know, show yourself some TLC with some THC holiday, right? Yeah, man. I just like a nice low dose gummy, staying regulated, chilling out. And I'm just as happy cleaning the whole house as I am laying in bed and doing sweet, sweet nothing. Couple bowls of cinnamon toast crunch. I like the best of both worlds. If you do two and you're 21 or older and a new customer, go to IndyCloud Co use the code RETOX for 40% off your first order. That's IndeCloud. Code RETOX for 40% off all month long. Ship discreetly to your door. Plus free shipping on orders over 50 bucks and $30 in free gifts. On qualifying orders, guys. Don't forget to fill out the quick survey when you order to support the show. I appreciate it. We appreciate it. As always, please enjoy responsibly and mega, super duper thanks to Indie Cloud for supporting our 420 plans this year.
- [17:58]
Kayl Lowry
It's Kayl Lowry joining me for Barely Famous. You might think you know me, but trust me, you don't know this version of me. This is where I say what everyone is too scared to ask and ask the questions that nobody wants to answer. I'm talking X's unexpected guess, viral chaos, messy relationships. Really just all of it. Nothing is off limits, Nothing is off the record. And yeah, things can get a little unhinged. It's real, it's raw, and it's probably going to make you gasp at least once. So follow rate and review Barely Famous, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:28]
Tom Schwartz
Another thing that really fascinates me when these things happen, especially online. If someone's a public figure, I'm interested in, like, group think and mob mentality. It gets kind of scary online sometimes. Like, I know it's fun. Like, we all love the drama. It's fun to get in there. We all like the tea piping hot in moderation, of course. But I don't know, sometimes I see these comments and they just, like, they're out for blood or out for vengeance. I get scared. I'm like, are these the same people that would have been at the witch hunt with the pitchforks hundreds of years ago? I don't know if that's a false equivalency or too far, but I know there's like a parasocial relationship dynamic there and stuff.
- [19:08]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But I mean, listen, keyboard warriors, you know, have more power to them. But I think it's, Listen, I think it's really easy to say things when you're sitting, you know, at your computer. I think that people feel like it's a safe, in an odd way, a safe space to say whatever you want to say because there's no direct interaction. I think that's unfortunately the downside. One of the many downsides of social media, it just, you know, people do it for likes, people do it for follows. There's, there's, there's secondary gain of making comments like that. So some of them aren't even intentionally meaning what they're saying. It's just, you know, to provoke an argument. So it's just a dangerous space. Dangerous space. And I always recommend people really limit what they're reading, limit the time they spend on it, limit the, you know, the pages they follow and limit the doom scrolling, which I'm fully guilty of, but me too.
- [19:58]
Tom Schwartz
I'm gonna. I'm gonna be. Listen, this, this one, this is not a session per se for me, but I'm averaging seven to eight hours per day. So. Listen, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, you guys have done a really good job. And I know they're actually facing some pretty dire legal consequences right now just, just for getting children and adolescents addicted to it. And people are winning. So I don't know, this could change the landscape of social media.
- [20:23]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
They just passed laws that children. I think it's under the age of 16, I don't even think they're allowed to have it.
- [20:28]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah, it's. I don't know, something. Ever since the pandemic, I just, I feel like there's been such a boom in depression, mental health issues, ADHD diagnosis. I know there's more awareness through all of these platforms, but I don't know. Do you have any explanation for the uptick? It's kind of a vague question, but just the uptick. Ever since COVID I mean, there's a heightened awareness, but it just seems there's more people that are stricken with anxiety and ADHD than ever now.
- [20:59]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I mean, I think a lot of people will say the same thing. You're saying that ever since COVID it's just been different, weird, different, whatever you want to call it. I think, you know, as far as adhd, one, there's way more effective ways to test for it now. So I think, especially adults, I think are being diagnosed with ADHD than before. It's not that it's a fad. I think it's just we know how to diagnose it more now. We know how to treat it, we know what it looks like better than we did, let's say, 20 years ago. But I also do think that social media and being online play such a tremendous role in this. Because if you think about it, the way social media sites are built, you see the red check, you see the little dot, you see this and you immediately get that rush of dopamine. And so when you're constantly on this 24, 7 getting this, it's intermittent reinforcement, like gambling. You never know when you're going to get. So you're constantly getting this thrown at you. Your ability to attend to things, pay attention, concentrate, is out the window. So ADHD may be more apparent now, but I also think that it's even more than that. I think our brains have just. We've been conditioned to respond in these really kind of on and off again ways that there's our concentration completely out the window. We can't, we can't sit with something for longer than 30 seconds. We can't watch a TV show for longer than 30 seconds without scrolling on our phone.
- [22:24]
Tom Schwartz
It's true. For me that's like the modern day litmus test. If I truly love a film I'm watching. If I don't look at my phone once, I truly, It's a, it's a fabulous piece of work.
- [22:35]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Tom Schwartz
You've managed to capture our attention for two hours straight.
- [22:38]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
If I don't put the phone honestly away from me, I won't get, I won't get through it. It's a constant rewinding and what did they say? And going. But it's hard, it's awful, it's awful. I, I mean I notice it on myself. I can't, I can't focus anymore.
- [22:51]
Tom Schwartz
How's, how, by the way, side note, how's your relationship with social media? Just surfing the web right now.
- [22:59]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I have a love hate with social media. I'm in a hate, I'm in a hate right now. I think it's, it's, it's good when I know exactly what I'm searching for and what I need to look for. It's bad when it's just this mindless endless scrolling. It ends up in rabbit holes. At three in the morning. I don't even know what I'm looking at anymore. I end up on some of, I don't even want to. The weirdest stuff that I like. The next morning I'm like, just look at my, I'm like, wow. Really? But I think when you go to social media, I think you have to have a, like a purpose. If you don't go on with a purpose, forget it. You just wasted, you know, hours and hours and hours. I think that it really becomes difficult. Kind of like what you were saying. If I post something that somebody is not in agreement with. Oh, that's, you know, the comments and the hate messages and it's just so you really have to be careful how you do it. I think you have to go in with intention and purpose.
- [23:56]
Tom Schwartz
I'm in my 40s now, so I feel well equipped to deal with it. Although I still have an addiction. There's no, there's no formal diagnosis for an Internet addiction, is there? Oh, there, oh there is.
- [24:08]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely there, there is. I mean it's like any other addiction model. It's the same. It works on the same principles that, you know, the withdrawal that comes from it, inability to concentrate, the constant need. Need where you can't focus on other things until you have it. It's not even fun anymore. You just need it to soothe yourself. I mean, it's. It's if that. And then that's what happens. You find yourself scrolling on stuff you don't care about. But if you put your phone down to leave it at home. If. If I leave my phone at home for 20 minutes and I'm halfway down the road, it's like I get this horrible feeling that's. That's like a withdrawal symptom in a way.
- [24:45]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah, I. I've seen. Have you seen this trending and we're going 90s tonight where you go out, no phone, no Internet.
- [24:52]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I would love that it's fixed. I would love it if everybody else with me was doing it too. It would be easier.
- [24:57]
Tom Schwartz
I like doing that for like a date night. Although I've been really bad lately. Sorry, Kiana. If you're listening to this, I've been so bad about looking at my phone while we're on a date. But I love the idea of going out with no phone for the night and just being completely in the moment with that significant other, reminding each other while you love them, you're so lucky to be with them. It's romantic.
- [25:17]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Going 90s, I feel like it's very freeing. I find that the only time I tend to do it, though, is when I hit my point of I hate this and then I'll leave it at home. But it gets to that extreme before I leave it. Before I leave it.
- [25:31]
Tom Schwartz
Dr. Jamie, that's resonating with me. It's hitting hard because it's. I find myself disgusted with myself when I'm looking. Like, I do cool deep dives. Like last week I did a deep dive into plant neurobiology and plant intelligence. Are they conscious? Very cool stuff. But then other times, yeah, I'm going down the alien conspiracy theory rabbit holes. And it's 5am and now I know my whole entire day is jeopardized.
- [25:57]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
It's shot.
- [25:58]
Tom Schwartz
Any little tips or tricks? Just moderation.
- [26:01]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Moderation. Give yourself a timer on your phone. You know, you set it for a certain time or you can go as far as you limit yourself on certain sites. There's settings on your phone that you can do that. But I really tell people, even though it's very hard to take this advice, put your phone somewhere where it involves you having to get up out of bed. To actually go access your phone, it has to be somewhere where it's nowhere near you. Put it in your bathroom, put it across the room. This way it really reduces the mindless scrolling because you're not really going to just get up and get out of bed. You'll probably just watch TV or check it in the morning, once in the afternoon and once in the evening, but not right before bed. So you want to put restrictions on it. But I am not a fan of completely withdrawing it because the truth of the matter is we do need our phones. Not a function in society to a certain extent.
- [26:48]
Tom Schwartz
And it's not realistic because I. I've read so many articles about the benefits of not looking at your phone for the first 60 minutes after you wake up, but it's just not feasible for a lot of people. Work your children, you have six an
- [27:03]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
hour early where nothing's happening, and then you start to put up, wake up at five instead of six.
- [27:10]
Tom Schwartz
I was blessed, well, blessed and cursed to be a morning person. So I love waking up at five or six in the morning when everyone else is asleep. It feels magical for me. But if you're not a morning person, by the way, there are like genetic. You can be genetically predisposed to this. Right. From what I've read and understand, there's night people and there's. There's morning people.
- [27:29]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. But I also think you get into a pattern based on your lifestyle and, you know, how you eat and how you sleep and just what your job is. But I do think. Yes, short answer, yes, There are people that are probably born night owls. You see night shifts at hospitals and I used to work in hospitals. It was the night shifts. That's how they always were. But I think in general, I think your lifestyle plays a massive role in your sleep schedule and vice versa, for sure.
- [27:57]
Tom Schwartz
So many of my friends have told me in the past few years you have undiagnosed adhd. And like we were talking about before, it's just, it's the, it's the. Would you refer to it as the, the adult diagnosis? Boom. Or something like that?
- [28:10]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, I think it's. It's a couple things. I think it's that it's just more well known now. We used to just think of kids with adhd. But, you know, even with children, I always tell people, you know, you have to make sure. Look at the parenting styles first before we just assume a child has adhd. What's going on the home, it's the same with adults. What's going on in your life? What can we change in your lifestyle first before we just automatically assume that you have adhd? Because the danger in just assuming you have ADHD is, let's say you go on a medication for adhd, but it's really not adhd, it's anxiety. And you go on a stimulant. Well, now your anxiety is going to go through the roof. And so you really want to be careful that you just assume it, because anxiety, depression, you know, Instagram addiction, all of those things, they all can look very similar on the surface. So you really want to make sure that what you're treating is actually adhd.
- [29:01]
Tom Schwartz
On that note, do you have any little simple hacks or tricks not to replace your prescription, what you were diagnosed with, but to accompany that, or maybe to lighten your load, if you will, to take a little bit less if you're trying to wean yourself off to some extent, you know, with your doctor's permission? Yes. Do you have any little, like, hacks or tips to accompany that, not replacement your medication?
- [29:26]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So obviously, if you're listening to this, don't wean off your medications. Ask your doctor first. But when I'm working with people who are weaning off their medications, I like to give them strategies that they have total control over that they can do whenever they want, that nobody knows that they're doing them. Things like if you feel your anxiety peaking, you feel starting to panic, you stick your face. I know it sounds silly, but stick your face in a bowl of ice. Stick your wrists in a bowl of ice. Always have sour, something really sour with you. Sour sucking candy to all of this stuff kind of resets your brain. It switches the switch, so to speak. You want to carry around something tactile like a penny or a feather in your pocket so that you can kind of use that to bring yourself back to the present moment. So it's things that address or trigger your senses that help ground yourself in the moment. Take your shoes off, put your feet in the grass. Not necessarily to be like, one with nature. I don't mean it like that. I mean, literally, you are able to feel your feet in the grass. It brings yourself back to the moment. You know, get outside, feel the sun, feel the wind. All of these things that target your senses, that help just kind of get you out of your head, which is where most of us live. Mm.
- [30:38]
Tom Schwartz
Spending entirely too much time in this head. Dr. Jamie. And I'm working on that, on just touching grass. Cause I know it's kind of a snarky quip online, go touch grass. But I think as society as a whole needs to touch more grass, some more grounding. And I've actually, I'm an advocate for the sour patch kid method. I've been blessed to not have nearly as much anxiety as I used to. It's very rare for me, but I've tried it, and in a pinch, it can work a really. Like a sour head as well.
- [31:08]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yep, that's exactly right. I always tell people to do that. Or mint gum, something like that. Also, if you're feeling kind of stuck or you find yourself ruminating, you can't stop thinking about something you want to do, something that's called the opposite action. So let's say you're sitting and you're laying and you're catching, you're ruminating, get up and it sounds ridiculous, but just go run outside to your mailbox and run back. Or start jumping up and down to music just because what it does is it sends a message to your brain that kind of tricks you into realizing that you're out of that mode of needing to protect yourself psychologically and you're safe and you're okay and so you can kind of reset yourself.
- [31:45]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah, those are cool little hacks. Again, not to replace, but just to accompany.
- [31:49]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Exactly.
- [31:50]
Tom Schwartz
Also, you're kind of a narcissism expert, especially when it comes to relationships as well. That's what that is. You know, that's a buzzword where there's a lot of narcissists in my line of work. Maybe properly or unproperly diagnosed just as like a little refresher course. Maybe somebody out listening right now is starting to date someone new and they're seeing a few cracks or a few little red flags. Can we just do like a 101 refresher course on some telltale signs? Early signs you might be dating a narcissist.
- [32:22]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes. So some early signs you may be dating a narcissist are ones that you're not going to look for because you're not going to see the abuse. You're not going to see the manipulation. So remember that some early signs that you could see are things like if you hear within the first, I'm going to say six months. And I know there's people listening to say, that's not true. I knew they were my soulmate day one. That's great. But you're in the minority. If the word soulmate, you are my soulmate. If that comes out of that person's mouth, you Run away and don't look back. Gone. Bye. See ya. If you start talking about we're going to get married, I want you to move in all these things that are really fast, that are great, but you don't even know this person's middle name yet. So how do you know they're your soulmate? Right.
- [33:11]
Tom Schwartz
So kind of like a premature love bombing almost.
- [33:14]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
That is love bombing, yeah. So that, that, that. But also things to look out for too, is. Let's say you. Let's say you're not normally a guarded person, but you normally wouldn't tell your deepest, darkest secrets to somebody on a first date. Right? You're getting to know them, what they do for a living, all that, but you find yourself compelled to share, you know? Oh, yeah. I grew up in a really toxic childhood. My dad left when I was five and my mom was an alcoholic. And you start talking about all these really. Or, you know, I had childhood cancer. It scarred me forever. And you normally don't talk about that. And so your initial thought is, oh, I must feel really close with this person. No, because now what's happening is this other person is using this to pull these vulnerabilities from you. And they too are saying, yeah, no, I can relate to that. Because my mom, blah, blah, blah, or my dad, and it's not real. It didn't really happen. They're just doing this to be able to, what's called join with you or make you feel so unbelievably vulnerable that then later on down the road, they're going to use these things against you. Okay, well, stop talking into me like I'm your dad, you know, and hold it over you. So those are red flags. And it's hard because who doesn't want to feel like that on a first date? Right?
- [34:31]
Tom Schwartz
I was going to say this would totally work on me.
- [34:33]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Right? Like it's. Who wouldn't love this? And so it's really, as I tell people, don't beat yourself up for not noticing these types of things. And it doesn't mean they're a narcissist. It's just be aware and be mindful. Another trick I tell people, and again, I get crap for this sometimes, but I'd rather be safe than sorry if you are a little bit concerned about this. What I tell people to do is if you have plans with the person, let's say it's the third date, cancel, say you're sick, see what their response is if they show up at your door with flowers and soup and Totally don't respect your boundary, even though it's looked at as concern and oh, how sweet. That's a red flag. Another red flag. If they get pissed at you and they don't call you for two weeks or they scream at you or you never hear from them again, just see what their reaction is other than, oh, I'm so sorry. I was looking forward to seeing you. Call me when you feel better and we'll reschedule.
- [35:26]
Tom Schwartz
What if someone listening right now is, omg, I'm dating a narcissist, and they're freaking out right now, but they see potential and they truly love this person? Maybe some early soft indicators. What about, like, a way to address this to someone because they're going to feel attacked and they're going to get hyper defensive. I mean, what do you do? Do you say, do you just run and not look back like you said? Or is there a way to address this if you see hope for a future together?
- [35:51]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
If they're a narcissist, like, it's early
- [35:54]
Tom Schwartz
soft narcissist, narcissistic undertones.
- [35:58]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So if it's.
- [36:01]
Tom Schwartz
I'm not. I'm not asking for a friend.
- [36:04]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So. So there's thick narcissistic undertones, then I can tell you that it will get worse. It will not get better. You cannot save them. You cannot fix them. You will just get sucked in deeper and it will be harder and harder to get out. So even though you may have the best of intentions and even though this other person may be making you think that they have potential, because, remember, it would be on purpose because they know you're empathetic, right? And they know that you. You're a good person. And they know this. So they know. If they say, I need help, can you help me? Can you? They know you'll stay in there if you're hearing that. Now, it's not just that in isolation, that in isolation does not equate to a narcissist, but if it's all of these other signs and it's that thick underlaying of a narcissist, I can, I promise you it will only get worse. It will not get better, period. And you really should figure out a way to get up.
- [37:03]
Tom Schwartz
This is your sign, people. If you're in fact dating a narcissist, maybe seek counseling first before you slap
- [37:10]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
that label on them.
- [37:11]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah. Not with them. Not with them. Thank you.
- [37:13]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Not with them.
- [37:15]
Tom Schwartz
Very important distinction, Dr. Jamie. I love this quote that always kind of floats around in my brain that people Will choose an unfamiliar or, no, a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. I see that one online all the time and I see it play out in relationships. I mean, there's a physiological chemist reason that's happening, right?
- [37:36]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. I mean, you hear people say this, oh my God, I married my mother, right? Oh my God, I married my father. And you think, you know, but the problem is, and we were talking about with the proximity in relationships, that pull of familiarity, that safety that we feel in our brain is so over. It just, it's so overpowering that it really kind of causes our judgment to shift when it shouldn't.
- [38:01]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah. So also, like, when things are going good, I've noticed people have a tendency to like, want to test their relationship. Is this a common thing in your experience?
- [38:12]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I think it depends on the person. I think if the person's used to either like self sabotaging their relationships or they've been in unhealthy relationships or they don't think they're worthy of a healthy relationship, then what you see sometimes are tests, testing behaviors. If I push you just enough, you still going to say, are you going to leave me? Or, you know, they can't possibly love me. I'm not worthy of this, so let me do something to mess it up and see if they still love me afterwards. So I think that kind of behavior stems from. That's what I was saying. The personality that you bring to the table and what your view of relationships in the past looks like for the sake of time.
- [38:52]
Tom Schwartz
I know we're making some generalizations here. We're not doing a deep dive. These are. But thank you for your insight, by the way. It's like another term like in relationships. And like in this, it's, you know, the sunken cost fallacy. Like, I've spent so much time with this person, I don't know how I can walk away. I still do. Like, I know it's, it's it. Your answer is probably gonna be it depends. But like, how do you know when it's time to walk away? Some key indicators are just little. Again, a 101 refresh course for someone who's in the throes of a somewhat, maybe just not toxic, but withering relationship.
- [39:28]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. So I think there's a couple things. One, there is no perfect relationship doesn't exist. Every relationship is going to have issues. So if you're leaving one to find a relationship with no issues or flawless. I ask people to just kind of recheck themselves. Right. What I think you want to find are Flaws and issues that you're able to tolerate and live with, you know, imperfections that you're willing to, that you can withstand. Now, that being said, there's something to be said for it. A relationship doesn't have to be unhealthy for you to want to leave. And I think people get stuck in them, like, well, they're so nice to me, they do this for me, they do this to me, but I'm just not happy. And that's okay too. But I think the biggest. And again, this is a very big generalization because when it comes to narcissistic, narcissistic abuse, there's a whole different set of rules for when I tell people and how I tell people to leave. But generally speaking, in non narcissistic relationships, I think the biggest thing is when you find that you are losing yourself. When you get to a place where you feel like, I don't, and I don't mean you just get older and your life changes because you have kids. I mean, you genuinely, you just lost who you are. You don't know who you are anymore. And this person, for whatever reason, it doesn't have to be. Be malicious, you grew apart, whatever. You just. This person doesn't enhance your life anymore. You just don't know who you are anymore. I think that that is, is an indicator to start being mindful of if
- [40:53]
Tom Schwartz
you should leave, which I imagine is a very common problem in life in your line of work. I'm sure you hear a lot of it. I feel like I've lost myself. I don't know who I am anymore. I don't know what to do. Like I've lost my. Yeah. So I don't know, little tips or tricks. Again, we're generalizing for the sake of time just to like, help get your sense of identity back, your sense of self fired up again. Stoke that flame a little.
- [41:17]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yep. So the first thing is I'm very big on values. I think everybody needs to reassess what their values are pretty, pretty often. Right. I value being a good friend. I value being a hard worker. And then use those as your anchor points throughout your day. So is my behavior right now at this very moment taking, taking me closer to the thing that I value, or is it taking me further away from the thing that I value? And if it takes you further away from the thing that you value, chances are the more of those you do, the more anxious and depressed you're going to be. So you always want to kind of do a value reset to make sure that your behaviors and throughout your day are in line with those values. And the closer to those values you are, the more. I don't say happy, I say more fulfilled. The more fulfilled your life will feel. Just start there. And the second biggest thing is really routine. You must, must, must have a routine for so many reasons. One, it creates predictability and comfort in our brain, makes us feel more relaxed, it improves our sleep, it just improves our attention. All the things we were talking about. And you want to make sure that your structure in your day is not just filled with things like I have to shower, I have to do laundry, I have to go to work, I have to. But things that you actually enjoy doing.
- [42:25]
Tom Schwartz
Yeah. Beautifully stated. I like that. I feel like I. There's times, the times I've been depressed in my life are when I lack the most structure.
- [42:33]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I think exactly right.
- [42:35]
Tom Schwartz
And I just have too much time to overanalyze analysis paralysis or whatever I used to call it. Yeah. So have a, have a structure. And even when you don't want to, even if you don't want to do your part of your routine, that's Maybe it's the 30 minute walk on the treadmill. Do it anyways.
- [42:52]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. Or I tell people if, you know, if, let's say they're so depressed and they haven't done their laundry in two weeks. Like, and I know it sounds silly, but it's not about getting it done. It's about self efficacy, the belief that you can get it done. Wash one sock. That's it. That one sock becomes two and then that becomes a shirt. And so if it's. What if running for 30 minutes is too much? Open your front door and stand outside for 30 seconds. I don't care where you start, just start to build the routine.
- [43:19]
Tom Schwartz
I like that the journey of a full load of laundry starts with one sock.
- [43:23]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Still one sock. You'll get so much more done.
- [43:27]
Tom Schwartz
It's beautifully stated. Well, I don't want to keep you too much. I just wanted to check in. This has already been so lovely. I could talk to you for hours.
- [43:35]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
This is great.
- [43:36]
Tom Schwartz
Where can we find you by the way? Dr. Jamie?
- [43:38]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, so my Instagram is Dr. Z psychologist. I post a ton on there all the time about relationships, narcissism, narcissistic abuse. My Insta, my same with TikTok. Same same account. And then my website's Dr. Jamie Zuckerman.com.
- [43:53]
Tom Schwartz
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman.Com. can we, can we go to your website and book a session with you? If we Want to do a zoom session?
- [43:59]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yep. You can book one on one sessions through my website. And if you're in Pennsylvania, you can go to the Z group, which is if you're in Pennsylvania, you can go to my offices there, zgrouptherapy.com and if
- [44:13]
Tom Schwartz
you're just a hopeless romantic and you feel like you're never going to find love, maybe you can just hold out for the aliens to come.
- [44:18]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Hold up for the aliens? Why not?
- [44:22]
Tom Schwartz
You can be part of the new hybrid race. Thank you so much, Dr. Jamie. This has been informative, super fun, and I feel better.
- [44:31]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Good, I'm glad.
- [44:32]
Tom Schwartz
Thank you for the booster session. Thank you. All right, nice chatting with you. Thank you guys for tuning in. Dr. Jamie, appreciate you so much. Bye. Thank you again. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Jamie Zuckerman. I enjoyed that chat. I did it. You know, I guess just as like a gentle little reminder, if you're listening to maybe book a session, a booster session. We could all use, like a nice little healthy venting vent. Yes, right. I like a booster session with someone who's like, dedicated this to their lives. It's their profession. They've mastered this area of expertise. And listen not to underestimate the efficacy of your ChatGPT therapist or a bottle of pinot noir in your favorite comfort show. That stuff's good too. But book a session, especially if you're in the throes of a toxic relationship or maybe dating a narcissist, don't just white knuckle it or watch Tiktoks. Get that dopamine. Fix clever quotes. Seek professional counseling. Right, A booster session. Also, based on what we've seen online, apparently no one cares that aliens are here and we're still gonna have to pay rent, which is higher than ever and due on the first. And if you're in that spot where you just need a little breathing room for first and last month's rent or maybe just to float you for a few months. Check out rent now, pay later. Helps people bridge the gap so you can focus on getting your life flow again. Yeah, unblocking that chakra, that financial chakra. You know what I'm saying? Life comes at you quick. We all know this. If you can use a little financial breather or ease the burden, like I said, that first and last month's rent, check out rnplcredit.com that's rnplcredit.com rent now, pay later. Yeah, man. Rent smart. Stress less. Check it out. Thank you guys for tuning in another episode. Thank you, Dr. Jamie. This was fun. Educational. Okay, I'll see you next week. Love you guys. I feel detoxified.
- [47:07]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
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Tom Schwartz
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
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Tom Schwartz
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
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