The Anxiety Episode: Panic Attacks, Triggers & Survival Tricks

Summary

Detox Retox with Tom Schwartz

Episode: "The Anxiety Episode: Panic Attacks, Triggers & Survival Tricks"

Date: June 3, 2026 | Guests: Kiana Carroll

Overview

This candid episode of "Detox Retox with Tom Schwartz" dives deep into anxiety: the lived, unglamorous reality of panic attacks, the triggers that set them off, and the survival tricks that help people cope. Tom is joined by his girlfriend, model Kiana Carroll, who shares her personal and often humorous journey through anxiety, revealing both vulnerabilities and practical coping strategies. Balancing mindfulness with mischief (and a lot of natural wine), they aim to destigmatize mental health struggles by talking openly and offering empathy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Anxiety in Modern Life

• [01:23] Tom sets a relaxing, honest tone: "It's Schwartze here with a little reminder that everything's gonna be okay. You're gonna be fine."
• Recap of recent National Mental Health Awareness Month and acknowledgement of the widespread nature of anxiety and stress in modern society.
• Reference to Tom's own panic experience:

  "Does everybody have anxiety these days? ...you witnessed the aftermath to what was actually my last panic attack." ([03:14])

• Stats highlight: Nearly 60 million Americans suffered mental illness in 2024; 31% of adults have anxiety disorders ([18:32]).

2. Personal Experiences with Panic & Anxiety

Tom's Story

• Tom recalls a notorious on-camera panic attack during Vanderpump Rules ([04:15]):

  “If you've ever had a panic attack, you'll understand why. Because it feels like you're having a heart attack and you've convinced yourself you're gonna die.”

• Describes sympathetic laughter as a coping mechanism: “I laugh so I don’t cry.” ([04:35])
• Dispels myths: For many, panic attacks happen daily and are truly debilitating.

Kiana's Story

• Kiana shares her first panic attack, triggered while alone with her cousin:

  “All of a sudden my legs started shaking... I was having him like, hold them down. And I started getting really scared... I think I need to call 911. I think I'm about to die...” ([24:23])

• The emotional aftermath:

  “After you have one, you’re like, oh my god. I have opened a door to a world I didn’t know existed because this is so crazy.” ([25:21])

• Her condition evolved into panic disorder and agoraphobia:

  “I almost became agoraphobic at one point—I was living in New York, stopped being able to take the subway, stopped being able to take elevators.” ([26:36])

• Medication and experience have helped, but the fear of recurrence is ongoing.

3. Differentiating Anxiety, Panic Attacks, Derealization & Depersonalization

Anxiety vs. Panic Attacks

• Kiana offers definitions:

  “Anxiety attack, I feel like, is a little bit more rooted in something real... panic attack is like, it literally feels like you’re dying.” ([21:06])

Derealization & Depersonalization

• New mental health vocab for Tom:
  • Derealization:

    “It’s when everything around you starts not feeling real. So you can find comfort in literally nothing.” ([42:32])
    “It’s literally like you’re on drugs, but you’re not.” ([42:50])

  • Depersonalization:

    “When you look in a mirror and you don’t feel like you’re in your body...like you’re almost looking at yourself from the outside.” ([44:40])

• Kiana describes these as deeply frightening, isolating sensations.

Notable Quote

“No. Feeling is final, you guys.” – Kiana Carroll ([64:43])

4. Triggers: The Rational and the Ridiculous

• Kiana’s triggers include backrooms (liminal, eerie spaces), meditation music and sound baths, video game-like feelings, silence, food delivery robots, and even seeing groups of kids in uniforms.
• Tom affectionately teases her for her ability to be fearless in “real” situations but triggered by the oddest (yet valid) things:

  “Real things don’t scare me. But just my mind.” ([37:29])

• Plane anxiety: less about crashing, more about being trapped and powerless ([60:10], [66:46]).

5. Managing Anxiety: Medication and Beyond

Medication

• Kiana: Always carries anti-anxiety meds, not always for use, just for the security ([50:04]);

  “I really need, like, a sense of control with it. So even just knowing I have it, I’m like, okay... it will end it.”

Survival Tricks & Coping Skills

• Breathing Techniques: Box breathing (inhale 4 sec, hold 4 sec, exhale 4 sec), or the 4-7-8 method ([52:17]).
• Sensory Distraction: Sour candies like Warheads or Sour Patch Kids:

  “It’s another form, like, something to talk about. It distracted me.” ([56:00])

• Physical Comfort: Weighted blankets or animals;

  “The best anxiety cure in the world: Dogs, cats, pets.” – Tom ([40:49], [58:05])

• Grounding/Human Contact: Tight hugs, holding something heavy, or calling a trusted person for support ([53:53], [54:23], [62:51]).
• Visualization: Thoughts as clouds passing by in the sky.
• Support System:

  "I immediately will either call you, my mom, Rachel or Mikey, and they will calm me down..." ([62:51])

Other Tips

• Avoid known triggers when possible (certain environments, conversation topics).
• Exposure therapy helped Kiana with flying due to extensive work travel ([60:10]).
• Tom’s unconventional tip: a (consensual) slap for shock value before live shows ([63:30]).

6. Destigmatizing the Conversation

• Both emphasize there’s no shame in medication, seeking help, or being vulnerable:

  “It’s okay to not be okay… Although if someone said that while I was having a panic attack, I’d be like, you just made it worse.” – Tom ([55:41])

• Kiana:

  “Anyone that has anxiety, I see you, I feel you, and you will be okay, even though it’s so scary sometimes.” ([65:16])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On panic attacks:
  "It feels like a lion is chasing you... But it's just the anxiety. You're safe. Tell that to my anxiety." – Tom & Kiana, quoting Glennon Doyle ([21:43])
• On derealization:
  "It's the scariest thing in the world…You start feeling you're the only real thing or the only real person, so you feel really isolated." – Kiana ([42:32])
• On support:
  "The number one thing for me, I'm so fortunate, is having like the most comforting support system ever… it’s the best thing ever." – Kiana ([62:51])
• On stigma:
  "It's emasculating sometimes as a man... as a human being... almost." – Tom ([54:45])
• On odd triggers:
  "Meditation music or guided meditations… guaranteed anxiety attack, right?" – Tom ([38:35])
• On the process:
  "No matter how bad it gets… it will end." – Advice from Kiana's friend, Rachel ([54:23])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:14] – Introduction to Tom’s panic attack on Vanderpump Rules and mental health stats.
• [04:15] – Vivid, relatable description of a panic attack.
• [09:54] – Kiana's vulnerable Greece story and how mental health affected her travel.
• [18:32] – Discussion about the pervasiveness of anxiety in modern times.
• [21:06] – Kiana clearly differentiates between anxiety and panic attacks.
• [22:45] – Kiana describes her physical panic symptoms and derealization.
• [25:21] – The emotional aftermath and empathy for fellow sufferers.
• [26:36] – Panic disorder, agoraphobia, meds, and impact on daily life.
• [42:32] – Deep dive: derealization and depersonalization explained.
• [52:17] – Demonstration of 4-7-8 and box breathing techniques.
• [53:53], [54:23] – Visualizations, support, emotional insights.
• [56:00] – Use of sour candy as a grounding/sensory trick.
• [58:05] – Comfort from pets, weighted blankets.
• [62:51] – Importance of a support system, friends, and family.

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Open, humorous, and relatable; the hosts do not shy away from joking about their quirks, but always circle back to validate and empathize.
• Mixed with practical advice and a strong undercurrent of "if you know, you know" solidarity.
• Reiterated throughout: “You're not alone.”

---

Takeaway

This episode blends personal storytelling, humor, and practical advice to create a heartfelt and accessible conversation about anxiety and panic. Tom and Kiana’s willingness to be vulnerable makes space for listeners to feel seen, heard, and a little less alone—while also picking up some practical tricks for their own moments of distress.

---

Resources & Final Message

If you or a loved one is struggling:

• Don't hesitate to talk to your doctor or therapist.
• Lean on your people: "Find help, find support, a doctor, a friend." – Kiana ([65:35])
• Remember: "No feeling is final." ([64:43])
• "And you are not alone." – Tom ([65:26])

Transcript

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[Kiana Carroll]

it's now time for your weekly Retox with Tom Schwartz.

[Tom Schwartz]

Hi. Hello, Yasu.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

It's Schwartze here with a little reminder that everything's gonna be okay. You're gonna be fine. You've successfully navigated the toughest part of the week. Now you're easing into the weekend. Today on the show, we're gonna sip some nice, soothing, delicious natural wine. Some Greek natural wine, Yamasu. And maybe express our inner artists a little cheeky paint and sip on the roof. Maybe smoke a cigarette. Oui, oui. Channel or inner artiste today.

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay, I like it. Picasso.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

You know what I'm talking about, Picasso. Others have seen what is and asked why. I have seen what could be and asked why not? Thank you Picasso for your words of wisdom. Today me and Kiana are channeling our guy, Picasso. I'm on a natural wine kick lately in my honeymoon phase with it. It's absolutely delicious. It's kind of like what happens when you let grapes just sort of do their thing. Chill out. Wild yeast, minimal chemicals. Not too much tinkering. Less is more with natural wine. Have you ever had it? Orange wine? Sometimes they keep the skin on when they ferment it. It's a little cloudy. I feel more one with nature when I sip au naturelle. It's kind of like wine's hippie cousin.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't know if that's disparaging.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

That's how I like to think of it. Wine's sophisticated, successful hippie cousin. Absolutely delicious. Highly recommended. Also, May was National Mental Health Awareness Month. So with a little cute ass green ribbon around my heart, we're going to take a moment to chat and help destigmatize some of these disorders that you. Well, hopefully not you, me, our friends, our family struggle with. It's an epidemic. Does everybody have anxiety these days? I don't know if you've watched VPR in the early days, OG you witnessed the aftermath to what was actually my last panic attack.

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay, what are you doing behind the wall? Your buddy Tom Schwartz had a panic attack. Had a panic attack. Panic attack. He walked right out to the middle of the shift.

[Tom Schwartz]

I did.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

I walked right out of the middle of a shift. If you've ever had a panic attack, you'll understand why. Because it feels like you're having a heart attack and you've convinced yourself you're gonna die. Shortness of breath, you're clammy, you can't think straight. It's terrifying. Really, really scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

If you've ever had one.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

I've only had a few close calls since then. That was like, yeah. 2014 Season 3 Episode 4 way way back so I'm blessed. Yeah, I get mild anxiety and I get angst, but I haven't had a full blown panic attack since then. Ah, man, I laugh so I don't cry. If you've experienced it, my heart goes out to you. Some people deal with this on a regular basis, if not monthly, weekly, daily. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to deal with panic attacks on a daily basis. Absolutely debilitating. If you're listening to that.

[Tom Schwartz]

Struggling with anxiety, my heart goes out to you.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

But yeah, just. We the people, we as a nation. Everyone seems a little stressed these days. Looking at some stats Online, nearly 60 million people experience mental illness in 2024. Rates of anxiety and depression not skyrocketing, but continuing to climb. I mean, is everyone rife with angst these days? I mean, I get it. Stress, trauma, economic pressure, rent prices are insane. Isolation. Apparently everything has microplastics in it now. I don't know. Being quarantined on a cruise with hantavirus, which has like a 30 to 50% mortality rate, could shrink your penis by 3 inches.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, I think this has been dispelled by the cdc, but still, can you imagine being fresh, pretty fresh off a

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

worldwide pandemic coronavirus and being one of the people on that cruise?

[Tom Schwartz]

Good Lord, talk about triggers. Yeah, we're gonna get into those later, too.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

And it's crazy out there. Our government's pretty much soft launched aliens and no one cares because they just want to be able to pay rent and afford groceries. Yeah. But today we're gonna chill out, sip some natural wine with my lovely girlfriend Kiana, who has learned to manage these things on, if not a weekly, a daily basis. She has such a good attitude about it and such a good sense of humor, and she's taught me terms I didn't even know about, terms I kind of wish I didn't know existed. I mean, I'm only half kidding, because you have to educate yourself. It promotes empathy and compassion. I mean, we've all heard of, like, depression, panic order, ptsd, but there's other things, like, there's other ones that I really, honestly didn't even know about, Like derealization.

[Kiana Carroll]

What?

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

I've never even. I've never even heard of these terms, but they're very real. A lot of people experience this and don't even know there's a term for it.

[Tom Schwartz]

But today, hopefully, we're gonna put your

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

anxiety on ice, Simpson. Vino natural with Kiana. And hopefully we can capture each other's essence on some canvas and try. Try to avoid any unnecessary triggers for bad vibes, like backrooms, which we'll get into too. But yeah, let's sip a little wine. Let's live, let's laugh, let's love. Let's get into it with Kiana Carroll. All right.

[Kiana Carroll]

You can't say that to someone because then they feel shy.

[Tom Schwartz]

Kiki, we're live.

[Kiana Carroll]

No, wait.

[Tom Schwartz]

Sorry, it's too late.

[Kiana Carroll]

Why'd you just say I'm shy?

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm joking. We're on the roof. Oh, what are we doing, Kiki?

[Kiana Carroll]

We're podcasting.

[Tom Schwartz]

What else?

[Kiana Carroll]

We're sipping wine.

[Tom Schwartz]

What type of wine? This is a natural wine from Greece, which I thought was apropos. I thought it was sweet because we had a pivotal moment in our relationship while you were in Greece.

[Kiana Carroll]

We did.

[Tom Schwartz]

Do you want to tell everybody what happened or.

[Kiana Carroll]

No, not in detail.

[Tom Schwartz]

Not in detail.

[Kiana Carroll]

I was in Greece for work, and I had to go for one night in Athens by myself after the shoot, and I had to leave everyone. We were shooting in Milos and I was all by myself. So chic. And I Thought I was gonna be having a fun night out in Athens by myself, and instead, the Airbnb had a full bar, and I called Schwartz, and we FaceTimed. And that's the first time I told him I had a crush on him.

[Tom Schwartz]

That is right. That is so sweet. So I thought this would be kind of sweet to, I don't know, just reminisce, celebrate. Commemorate, if you will.

[Kiana Carroll]

I was gonna say that word.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Commemorate.

[Tom Schwartz]

Our nice little moment when you were in Greece. I've never been to Greece. Is it fabulous?

[Kiana Carroll]

That was my only time. I don't want to upset anyone. I. Well, I feel like there's other places that maybe I would like more, and I was just there for work and one night by myself to tell you I had a crush on you. So I feel like I didn't explore it properly, but. But I would say where I went, maybe I felt it was a little overrated.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, you were booked and busy. You didn't get. You didn't really get a chance to indulge.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, I've heard other. Other parts of Greece are amazing, like Paros. I'm probably saying that wrong, but I've heard that's, like, beautiful and amazing.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, we're. We're sipping on a beautiful natural wine. Do you know anything about natural wines?

[Kiana Carroll]

No, I don't know, like, anything about wine.

[Tom Schwartz]

I used to work for a distributor, so you would think I would know more. We're sipping in natural wine, which is delicious, but they keep the skin on when they ferment it, and they use wild yeast instead of, like, manufactured yeasts. And it's supposed to create less sulfites, which gives some people hangovers. I don't know if you know anything about sulfites, but they essentially, like, prevent spoilage, protect against oxidation, yada, yada, yada. They keep it fresh. But some people say they contaminate the wine and contribute to hangovers. No hangovers for us, Kiki.

[Kiana Carroll]

Oh, it's okay. I feel like people say when they're in Europe and they drink wine, they, like, get less hungry over than when

[Tom Schwartz]

they're in the US that is a very common thing.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

And if we are hungover, it's because we went to Cheesecake Factory and we could. We could blame it on the Peachi Lenowski, right? Oh, I thought it was Lena Marie dressed up with the red on top.

[Kiana Carroll]

Red on top.

[Tom Schwartz]

Drake, you're an influencer. You dropped three albums, and you significantly contributed to us going to the Cheesecake Factory today, which has an amazing happy hour.

[Kiana Carroll]

I didn't even know. The Bellinis are not on it.

[Tom Schwartz]

This is a bad start. I promise we wouldn't go on tangents. I'm sorry, guys. You guys, we're doing a paint and sip on my roof today.

[Kiana Carroll]

We're not sip, we're sipping. We're not painting yet.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's the theme of today. Natural wines, love. And also May was Mental Health awareness month. And.

[Kiana Carroll]

And it's June now.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

We're both mental.

[Tom Schwartz]

Insane in the membrane in different ways. I think we're all a little crazy these days, honestly. Like we are.

[Kiana Carroll]

And we're too aware of everything that makes us crazy. So we focus on being crazy so much.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

That's the thing. Yeah, just like hyper connectiveness.

[Tom Schwartz]

Digital connectivity. Yes. Information freaking overload.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's good and bad. It's like, good to be aware, but, like, sometimes I'm too aware.

[Tom Schwartz]

Hybrid aliens mating with no human.

[Kiana Carroll]

I don't like. I don't like.

[Tom Schwartz]

On the cusp of World War iii, AI taking over.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's too much. It's.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's a lot.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's too much.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't know what it is, man. Also, like, just like modern lifestyle habits, you know, comparison culture. Being online, chronically online. Not getting enough of fresh air like we're doing on the roof right now. My God.

[Kiana Carroll]

So today was all about doing things good for our mental health.

[Tom Schwartz]

By the way, the Grove is always good for your mental.

[Kiana Carroll]

It is. That's what you said before we went, I need some sunshine, shopping and some drinks.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's like Daniel Tosh used to do this bit about money buying happiness. And he's like, you ever see someone sat on a jet ski?

[Kiana Carroll]

You literally said this in our last podcast. I did.

[Tom Schwartz]

I know, but it rings true. Because have you ever seen someone sat at the Grove?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, she dispelled that. No one sat at the Grove. It's like the happiest place in la.

[Kiana Carroll]

I definitely, if I'm sat, I'd rather be sat at the Grove than sat at home.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay. That's so fair. Yeah, we love the Grove. We went on a little mini shopping spree and now we're going to sip and we're gonna paint and we're gonna live and we're gonna laugh and we're

[Kiana Carroll]

gonna love and we're gonna talk.

[Tom Schwartz]

We're gonna talk about mental health and

[Kiana Carroll]

we're gonna be aware, even though it's June. Happy Pride Month.

[Tom Schwartz]

Happy Pride Month. Kiki, how is your mental health right now?

[Kiana Carroll]

Mmm hmm. Right now, this very moment. Fine. But that could change at any second.

[Tom Schwartz]

She has a little saying, it goes like this and it could

[Kiana Carroll]

do you

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

guys still love summer? I mean, I do. I think I still do. I just I yearn from the OG summers back in the day. Remember when summers actually used to feel super relaxing? Endless summer vibes like summer break. Yeah, adulthood definitely got involved somehow, which I love. Adulting is fun too. I'm not knocking it. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty fun being an adult, but it just doesn't feel like as magical these days. Right. This is why I think people are just becoming a lot more intentional about how they actually unwind lately. And that's where Indicloud fits in. Indecloud is a fully legal online cannabis dispensary for gummies, exotic flower Premium pre rolls, zero sugar THC sodas, Energy gummies, extra slinks, extra strength sleep gummies, which I love.

[Tom Schwartz]

Love those.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Everything is federally legal Hemp THC lab tested and shipped discreetly to your door. Right? It's so nice, so easy. I'm not being a Debbie Downer about summer, am I? I just got self conscious. I mean the sun does summon me. I'm still a snowbird at heart. I still wake up every day in LA and thank the heavens above for every day that is 70 or above. I do appreciate. I just think my social battery depletion

[Tom Schwartz]

is faster these days.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Like I still love going to Venice, Hiken Runyon Vegas vacation at the new Vanderpump Hotel. Yes, sign me up. But at this point, just like staying calm, chilling out at home with the pups in my bed watching reruns of Friends feels more luxurious than actually going out. I love a low or microdose option for staying functional. The heat. You know what I'm talking about.

[Tom Schwartz]

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[Podcast Host (Retox)]

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Support for this podcast comes from Progressive, America's number one motorcycle insurer. Did you know? Writers who switch and save with Progressive save nearly $200 per year. That's a whole new pair of riding gloves. And more. Quote today Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates national averaged 12 month savings of $197 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between October20, September, 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[Tom Schwartz]

You guys know about the Olive Theory, by the way, we're talking about Greece.

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay, random.

[Tom Schwartz]

I love olives. You guys know the Olive Theory? If you haven't seen that episode of How I met your mother.

[Kiana Carroll]

Do you want these? I hate olives.

[Tom Schwartz]

She hates olives. Awesome.

[Kiana Carroll]

The Olive Theory.

[Tom Schwartz]

The Olive theory is based on my friends Marshall and Lily. He hates olives. She loves them. In a weird way, that's what makes him such a great couple. Kiko, you hate olives. I love them. Are we going to be a great. Are we a great couple?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't want to jinx it.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, that's not why, but yeah, we are.

[Tom Schwartz]

We haven't seen next week's episode of the Valley, but I think Kiana's in it.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, I know I'm in it, but I don't know to what extent.

[Tom Schwartz]

She's scared shitless cuz she thinks she wore her sunglasses on her face again.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

And she was mocked into oblivion.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. If you guys see those on, just know. I did not know I would get this response over the sunglasses, so I kept those on.

[Tom Schwartz]

Kiki, don't apologize. Would Cory.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, actually JK not. Sorry.

[Tom Schwartz]

Would Cory Hart apologize?

[Kiana Carroll]

Is that the person from Big Daddy?

[Tom Schwartz]

No, he wears his sunglasses that night.

[Kiana Carroll]

Who's that?

[Tom Schwartz]

He's a famous singer from the 80s.

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh my God.

[Kiana Carroll]

I don't know the references. Yeah, I'm not sorry.

[Tom Schwartz]

Listen, I was looking at some Stats online earlier. Anxiety rampant around the world, especially in America. Anxiety disorders are the most common mental illness affecting over 42 million American adults, approximately 31%. That's larger than the population in Los Angeles.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

To me, significantly.

[Kiana Carroll]

What are you going to say?

[Tom Schwartz]

That's. Well, that's 10 times the population in Los Angeles.

[Kiana Carroll]

To me, it feels like, like meeting a unicorn. If I meet someone that doesn't have anxiety, like, that's like the, like a weirder thing to me. If you haven't ever experienced an anxiety like era in your life, even if you're not having it right now, but like if you've never had anxiety, that's crazy. I don't even know if that like actually exists.

[Tom Schwartz]

We didn't really know what anxiety was back in the day. Even if we had it, we weren't so self aware and so informed.

[Kiana Carroll]

That's kind of what I was saying at the beginning is we're just like so aware of everyone's crazy. So like we like think about it a lot. So I know what you mean. But you guys definitely still were anxious. I got my anxiety from my dad. He's definitely been anxious his whole life.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's a generational thing, right? Fourth generation, fourth generation anxiety disorder. Shout out to Jerry Carols.

[Kiana Carroll]

We have bad anxiety in our family.

[Tom Schwartz]

It runs in my family. I feel like we are late onset anxiety disorder participants. I didn't really have it as a kid. I was, listen, I was so happy. Go lucky, carefree. Like, I honestly, my first anxiety attack came from edibles. To be fair, abusing edibles, way over consuming, having no idea how much I should take. Like we. I cooked a giant batch of brownies, I'm talking like a full pan. And we split it. Me and my dear friend Brad. We ate each a half of pan of brownies in college and said, c' est la vie. Yolo. And I couldn't talk, I couldn't breathe.

[Kiana Carroll]

And I remember, oh my God, this is making my heart race.

[Tom Schwartz]

I went in the bathroom and I laid down and I was ashamed because I thought I was gonna die. And I was. My first thought was, my mom is gonna be so ashamed.

[Kiana Carroll]

That was mine. During my first panic attack, I was like, mikey, take me to the hospital. My mom's gonna be so mad at you if you don't.

[Tom Schwartz]

Do you remember your first panic attack? Because it's a very humbling thing because for people. So some people have dull anxiety, angst, stress. We're all stressed out. But an anxiety attack, you feel like you're being chased By a lion.

[Kiana Carroll]

Anxiety attack and panic attack, I would even say, are different.

[Tom Schwartz]

Wait, can you. Can you define the difference?

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay. Anxiety attack, I feel like, is, like, a little bit more rooted in something real, probably. Like, and it's just, like, an overload of stress, and you're just, like, so overwhelmed. Maybe, like you feel like you can't breathe, but it's more like stress unnerving. A panic attack is like. It literally feels like you're dying.

[Tom Schwartz]

Call 91 1.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, one is way more scary than the other. They're both very distressing. But panic attack is like you actually feel like you're on drugs, even if you're not, because of how crazy it is.

[Tom Schwartz]

I like this quote, by the way, by Glennon Doyle. Ready for this one? You're not going to die.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Here's the truth.

[Tom Schwartz]

It feels like you are. It feels like a lion is chasing you. It feels like a bear has spotted you. But it's just the anxiety. You're safe.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Tell that to my anxiety.

[Tom Schwartz]

Glennon Doyle. Tell that to my panic attack. I've only had four in my life. Kiana said, I'm very privileged.

[Kiana Carroll]

You're so lucky.

[Tom Schwartz]

All equally as terrifying. And every time I thought I was gonna have to call 91 1.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

The last time I had it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Season 3, episode 4 Vanderpump Rules, I had, well, an existential meltdown mixed with an anxiety attack the first night we opened at Pump. Not my best, not my proudest moment.

[Kiana Carroll]

I sympathize.

[Tom Schwartz]

I rewatched that scene earlier. I played it in the intro.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Man, I really.

[Tom Schwartz]

I felt like such a putz. But it's something I had to do. Like, I could not breathe.

[Kiana Carroll]

I so get it.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Can you just.

[Tom Schwartz]

For someone who's never had a panic attack, can you take us? I don't want to trigger one right now.

[Kiana Carroll]

No, I think I'm in a good mental state where I can.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, we're sipping.

[Kiana Carroll]

I had a good day. Oh, my God.

[Tom Schwartz]

Shortness of breath.

[Kiana Carroll]

Shortness of breath for me. I get, like. My body starts vibrating, like, uncontrollably shaking. Like, it actually goes past the point of shaking. It's like you've seen it before. Like. Like, I literally can't stop shaking my legs. Everyone's panic attacks are different for me. They're very. I get really bad derealizations, so things start feeling, like, not real around me. So I find comfort in nothing.

[Tom Schwartz]

We're going to circle back to that because that's a new term for me. But, yeah, sorry, you Were saying, okay, yeah, so.

[Kiana Carroll]

But we will circle back to it, but I start getting a lot of really scary thoughts on top of the physical. Most people really struggle with the physical, where, yeah, you're. You feel like you can't breathe. A lot of people think they're having a heart attack. My dad one time thought he was having a heart attack, but it was a panic attack.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's exactly it.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. And you just. It's like. Psychologists say it's like the closest to, like, feeling like you're about to die without actually being in actual, like, any physical harm or, like, actual harm from a physiological standpoint.

[Tom Schwartz]

You. You experience all the same symptoms.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes. And the fear. Yeah. And the fear of thinking you're about to die.

[Tom Schwartz]

Like, pause. So. But after 12 years of reality TV, we are so conditioned to stop talking when a place plane flies over. By the way, I'm not sorry, rookie. Is this amateur hour? You were saying, Keek?

[Kiana Carroll]

What was I saying?

[Tom Schwartz]

Just. Just describing, like, yeah, it's.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. And then you just start a spiral of it. So you start getting scared. For me, my first couple ones started with the physical symptoms, and then that just started scaring my mind because I'm like, why is my body doing this? So now I think I'm dying.

[Tom Schwartz]

Do you remember your first?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Can you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Do you want to talk? Are you okay to talk about it?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. I was with my cousin Mikey, and we were laying in bed, and then all of a sudden my legs started shaking. My first ones, they all started physical, and I didn't know what was happening. And I was having him, like, hold them down. And I started getting really scared, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, what is happening? I'm so scared right now. Like, I really don't feel good. And then I was like. Like something is, like, unsettled in my stomach maybe. So then I went and I went and tried and threw up, and then that wasn't helping. And I just felt like I had all this, like, restless energy. So it's like pacing all around. I start freaking out, and then I start crying. I telling him I, like, I think I need to call 911. I think I'm about to die. Like, my mom is going to be so mad. And he's like, I know this is a panic attack. You're not dying. And I just kept thinking, my mom is going to be so fucking mad at you. But he was right. I survived.

[Tom Schwartz]

So he was your anxiety attack trip sitter, essentially. He calmed you down. He had, luckily, so. So you have A ton of empathy if you've experienced one. Because it's, it's like, it's very humbling.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes. And it's truly an experience that if you haven't experienced it, oh my gosh. People so loosely say like, oh my God, that's gonna give me a panic attack. And before I ever had one, I would think nothing of that. Or if someone said I had a panic attack, I'd be like, okay, yeah, you were freaked out earlier. After you have one, you're like, oh my God. I have opened a door to a world I didn't know existed because this is so crazy. It's like literally the craziest experience ever. I remember after I had my first one, I just, I was like, oh my God, I need to tell everyone that this happened because I feel like I survived like a near death experience.

[Tom Schwartz]

It does suck knowing that you're capable of having one. It's like, it's an Achilles heel. It's like you're. It's, it's, it's your kryptonite. When you've had one, you're capable of having another one. Luckily, as I've grown older, I've had less and less and I'm able to ward them off. We could talk about some homegrown techniques later, but.

[Kiana Carroll]

So sorry to cut you off.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, please.

[Kiana Carroll]

So that is, people go two routes after they get a first panic attack. You either, like, have one and you know, it sucks that you're capable of it, but, like, life goes on as normal. For me, that was not the case. I got panic disorder from that. And like, honestly, life was literally never the same. Not to sound dramatic, but it wasn't because after I had it, I.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's a little dramatic.

[Kiana Carroll]

No, I. But serious. I, like, almost became agoraphobic at one point in my life because I was so scared always of getting one and not being able to stop if I was in public. And at this point, I was living in New York, I stopped being able to take the subway. I stopped being able to take elevators for a while. And life actually wasn't the same for a while. Then I got medication to help. So like, thank God for that. And I'm able to do things, but I really thought, like, oh my gosh, my life is over because I'm in constant fear and it's like agony because, like, you can't escape it. Like if you're awake, you're just scared non stop and it's like the worst thing ever.

[Tom Schwartz]

I've never experienced what it's like to have chronic anxiety or fear or apprehension of having anxiety attacks on a regular basis. How do you ward that off? Aside from medication?

[Kiana Carroll]

Just experience, like, regular anxiety for me, is a lot more manageable because I've had that, like, I feel like, since middle school where it, like, sucks, but I don't know, like, that I can helps by, like, I don't know, calling my mom, talking to a friend, focus on my breathing. When it's panic, I pretty much. I have to take medication to help or I have to submit to the fear if I don't have my medication with me. But then I know I'm about to enter hell for like an hour.

[Tom Schwartz]

My God.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

And it's like just weathering a storm, right?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

At this point, I mean, you can tell yourself, I'm gonna survive. I've been through this before.

[Kiana Carroll]

It doesn't really help. House. I don't get scared anymore now that I'm dying. I get scared of the panic attack itself because that's. It's so scary to me.

[Tom Schwartz]

The biggest thing is for people, the uninitiated. Bless you, by the way.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, it's.

[Tom Schwartz]

I just can't find the right word. It's. It's because the. The physicality of it. You feel like you can't breathe and you're suffocating and you're having a heart attack. That's exactly how it feels, and it's terrifying.

[Kiana Carroll]

I would say my biggest takeaway after my first panic attack is I. That taught me how powerful the mind is because I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, obviously whatever caused this was probably subconscious stress, but I was like, whoa. My mind can freak me out so much that it can make my body do these things that I'm, like, unable to control. So I really realized how powerful my mind was then, which is honestly kind of scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

It can be just a figment of your mind, or it can be your set and setting. We saw back rooms at the. At Universal CityWalk last night, and if you guys don't really know about back rooms. Kiki, how would you describe what a back room is?

[Kiana Carroll]

I don't know exactly how they describe it on the Internet, but, like, I guess just kind of an unnerving space that feels, I don't know, strange.

[Tom Schwartz]

Empty room with. With not neon lighting, but fluorescent. Fluorescent lighting.

[Kiana Carroll]

Fluorescent or like, warm yellow lighting.

[Tom Schwartz]

You guys, if you're not familiar with backrooms, it's a great movie, by the way, but think abandoned malls.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yellow walls. Maybe, like, stained carpet.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Buzzing.

[Tom Schwartz]

Not just fluorescent Lights, but like a buzzing fluorescent light. Maybe like an empty Chuck E. Cheese.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. I was gonna say like an indoor water park at night.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, that is the perfect description. Yeah, you just nailed it.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Back rooms, you guys, if you want to go down a rabbit hole, I love a Reddit or a YouTube backrooms down the rabbit hole. I highly recommend it, unless you're prone to anxiety. Well, this will be a good introduction to anxiety. Actually.

[Kiana Carroll]

I went. Me and Schwartz went with my best friend Rachel, and I was worried that me and her both went in, like, I love scary movies, but this was one that I was like, ooh, this might hit a scary spot for us. Like, this might trigger a panic attack, but let's go. Let's just have like a couple drinks first. It didn't, but I could see how it would. If anyone's seen the movie Vivarium, that triggered a panic attack for me.

[Tom Schwartz]

So, yeah, again, if you've never really. If you're not familiar with backrooms, good for you. But it's like. It's not really, like jump scares. It's kind of just feeling lost or alone. And it's like. It's very. It's like the eerie.

[Kiana Carroll]

Eerie.

[Tom Schwartz]

Eerie is the perfect word. And the sense that something might be something or someone might be watching you. And yeah, it's. It's like I. One of my favorite versions of this is like, when I go to the Ralph's on Ventura on Cold Water and Ventura around 3am it's very backrooms vibes. It's very quiet. Everyone in there is usually is either really high or just strange. And I don't mean that in a judgmental way, just objectively. There's like a great cast of characters, great people watching at the Ralph's on Ventura and Coldwater Cany in the Valley at 3am by the way, I'll never forget that Ralph's in particular was like one of the first times I went to a grocery store after Covid and they allowed us to start going out again. And I'll remember, it was like we all had to stand six feet away from each other, single file. But the most backroom stark thing I've. Like, one of the starkest things I've ever seen in my life is I remember when I got to the meat section and there was no meat left. Something about it seems so primitive or primal or just like carnivorous or savage. That was probably one of the most apocalyptic moments of my entire life. Not any meat in the entire meat section. It was glowing like that off yellow color.

[Kiana Carroll]

Oh yeah, that would be really freaky

[Tom Schwartz]

to see very backrooms.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

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[Tom Schwartz]

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[Tom Schwartz]

Do you have like off the top of your head, one of your most backrooms experiences? Things we loved as a kid are pretty much all back rooms now.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. I would say that was like spot on what you said, like a Chuck E. Cheese or like what I said the water park. And I, I don't know what I would think of now. For me, I don't know if I'm like, oh, I guess like, like a kind of shitty hotel in a random town for like a modeling job. If I'm shooting in like a random space and it's like a weird hotel, it feels kind of empty. It's an unfamiliar town. That will feel really odd. Also, if I ever go to a casting, I'm good with elevators now, but I'll still randomly get scared if I'm ever going to a casting and the elevator feels smaller. Weird, weird. I'll randomly like be like, okay, no, I can't do it. And I'll take the stairs. And some of these castings are in the weirdest buildings and the staircases. Oh, actually aside from this. A backrooms vibe. The Margaritaville citywalk.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay. By the way, we love Margaritaville.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, we do.

[Tom Schwartz]

I love the one on the Vegas strip. But I gotta say, the Margaritaville on Citywalk in Los Angeles, very backrooms.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. What made me think of that As I was talking about how I take the stairs when I get scared to take the elevator. There's a room at the Margaritaville where it's supposed to be like a party fun room, but there's just like an open, weird looking staircase. And it felt very backroomsy. And we went there right before watching backrooms.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're so funny because you're one of the most well traveled cosmopolitan people and just like bold and confident and you're so self assured but also like we were driving down La Brea today on the way to the Grove and you saw a school of kids in the same uniforms. You're like, I need a Xana. You can get triggered by the strangest Things I can.

[Kiana Carroll]

Oh my gosh. It's so, so funny. I laugh at it too, cuz it's so true. The night I. The night that we were talking about in Greece, I went out by myself in Greece to a restaurant before going back to the Airbnb with like low battery. I was by myself 5% and I had not a care in my mind. I was like, I'm fine. I'm going to go back to the Airbnb. Obvious time Schwartz, like, all is well.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm like, do you not watch True Crime?

[Kiana Carroll]

I do, actually. That's what's so weird. Real things don't scare me, but like just my mind.

[Tom Schwartz]

Just. You guys, we're not going to go too deep cuz I guess we'll get to explore you on the Valley a little bit this season. But like Kiana, we'll be driving down the street and she'll see one of those little robots that delivers food that are so cute. In my mind, they're adorable. And she's like, oh my God. Speed up, speed up, speed up.

[Kiana Carroll]

Take them. I need my medication. Yeah, it is very odd what triggers it. And I never know when I wake up. Is this going to be a good day, a bad day? What's going to happen, Kiki, off the

[Tom Schwartz]

top of your head, are they like strange triggers for you? Like odd if you, if you want to be vulnerable?

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, like I said earlier, derealization is like pretty much my biggest trigger. Plane. Plane guys, if you do reality tv, you know, don't talk when it planes.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, that was a little douchey, but it's. I was saying that, you know, jokingly.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, wait, don't talk. I'll wait, I'll wait. The place.

[Tom Schwartz]

But I'm just curious about like unconventional triggers that are kind of silly but nonetheless valid.

[Kiana Carroll]

1. Meditation music or guided meditations?

[Tom Schwartz]

Shout out to Ryan, who I went to Shanghai and Chongqing with. And I was talking about him because I love sound baths. I love a sound bath. Very calming. For me, there's a great place. Fred. Where you got your Fred Seagull. No, no, no. There's a massage. There's a great place to get a sound bath. I'll listen. I'll leave it at the end of the episode. But anyways, I love a sound bath in the Valley off Ventura. I went with Jason Caperna. But for you, anxiety. Almost a guaranteed anxiety attack, right?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, but what were you saying?

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, so Ryan. Ryan is like one of the few people. I was telling him how much I love them when we were in Shanghai and he's like, oh, I had my worst anxiety attack of my life during a sound bath.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can you. Can you explain?

[Kiana Carroll]

I don't know. It's the whole, like, my mom, her biggest advice to me always is like, you need to learn how to meditate. But entering it, like, I feel like I just need to, like, conquer the beast and get to the other side. And then it would be helpful. But I don't know, it's I for me. Yeah. Like meditation music or like sound baths. It's too much. I. Now I'm starting to go into a spiral in my head because there's no distractions on the outside. So now I'm looking internal and I feel like I'm in like, a mental loop. Oh. It's also like the loop of it. Like, it feels like things sound on a loop. And that's a huge. Also trigger for me is when things feel like it's looping. Like, I feel like I can't escape something.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, it's like. It's like. It's like you're sitting with yourself and just your mind and in your.

[Kiana Carroll]

I guess I don't like doing. I don't. I'll literally be on my phone, have a YouTube video playing on my laptop and the TV playing. I, like, constantly need to be distracted.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. Without, you know, dissecting it. It makes sense to me. I happen to enjoy it. But like, I've had my thoughts go wild when I'm doing meditation.

[Kiana Carroll]

I. So I don't like that because when my thoughts go wild, I'm immediately like, okay, well, if I start thinking about something that gives me a panic attack, which then gives me a panic attack

[Tom Schwartz]

also, like sometimes, like when. Like just the silence.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Like sometimes, especially if you've. You have, like, know, repressed trauma. You've been through some up things in life like, that can, like, sneak into your mind. It. Come on, friend. Up here. Gordo's out here.

[Kiana Carroll]

Come over.

[Tom Schwartz]

Gordo's out here. By the way, the best anxiety here in the world. Dogs, cats, pets.

[Kiana Carroll]

Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

Am I right?

[Kiana Carroll]

They're so helpful. Yes, they are so helpful. What else are some. The robots that deliver food. That is so oddly one. What else is one? It. It is true when things get very quiet, but not in like a, oh, I feel awkward way. But sometimes I'll be on set and when everything gets really quiet and no one's talking, I start to. I guess it is. Yeah. Just when I don't have a distraction, I get my head and I'm like, oh, now I'm scared. And then also, like I was saying a little bit with the derealization is like anything that starts to feel a little like video game vibes, like hearing a song that sounds like. I don't know how to explain it, but I guess an example of how a video game would scare me is I was on set one time and I started telling everyone, like, oh my gosh, guys, I'm so tired. Like, I don't even feel like I'm here right now. And they were joking around with me and they were like, yeah, you're our sim. And like they were joking around that I was like their sim character that. And I don't know, it was like a stupid joke. And then it made me start crying and I had to run to the fitting room and had to take my medication because I started freaking out and. And they were like, oh my God, we did not mean for this to happen. I was like, I know, guys, I know, like, this isn't normal that I reacted this way, but I get really scared of feeling like I'm like in a video game or things aren't real. Oh. So any talk about, like, we're in a simulation? No. Immediately. No. Do not talk to me about that. Like, never ever, ever.

[Tom Schwartz]

We said we'd circle back to this, so I was unfamiliar with this term, but you've taught me about derealization.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's the scariest thing in the world.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can you give me your definition of that?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. It's when everything around you starts not feeling real. So you can find comfort in literally nothing. I've been at my mom's house in my hometown before and I had a panic attack there with her. And I was just sitting at the counter and all of a sudden everything started feeling unfamiliar. It's literally like you're on drugs, but you're not.

[Tom Schwartz]

And you felt like a sim.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. And it was really scary. I was like, oh my God, like nothing feels real right now. And then you feel like you're the only real thing or like the only real person, so you feel really isolated. I know I sound like a crazy person.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, you're one of the most well rounded people I've ever met in my life.

[Kiana Carroll]

But you have. I just have these bouts.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're a little neurotic.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes, I would say I'm. I have. I'm normal for the most part. But yeah, I have this one curse on me and this is it. But yeah, that's. It's so scary. It just. Things just start not feeling real. And then. Yeah, you start feeling freaking out about that. Like, when everyone went to space recently, I couldn't watch stuff about that because that starts freaking me out too. Like, thinking about how. Like thinking about space. Stuff like that.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, you're tall, you're gorgeous, you're funny. Whoever made you was like, you know what? Let's give her some debilitating mental health.

[Kiana Carroll]

Let's make her scared as hell every day for no reason.

[Tom Schwartz]

Let's make her scared of robots. Let's make her scared of big fish.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, that happened one time.

[Tom Schwartz]

I know, but now so do you. Okay, I just googled it. Derealization is a dissociative symptom where the world around you feels unreal. Yeah, like you said, distorted or dreamlike. People experiencing it often feel as though they're viewing their surroundings through a glass wall or a clouded window.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes. Your vision will start to get weird. Like my vision will start to get. Yes, that's how I can first sense it starting is my vision will start to get like. Like foggy. Like I won't be able to see very well.

[Tom Schwartz]

So it's pronounced.

[Kiana Carroll]

What is that?

[Tom Schwartz]

It's not so. Like, it's. It's. It's very noticeable.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's really scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thank God I've never experienced this.

[Kiana Carroll]

I'm not kidding. I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. No joke. And I would wish a lot of bad things on my worst enemies, but not that.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, what is depersonalization?

[Kiana Carroll]

So this one Rachel struggles with more than me? I have derealization, man. Depersonalization is not feeling like. Like when you look in a mirror and you don't feel like you're in your body or like.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Kiana Carroll]

Like you feel outside of yourself. Like, you're almost like looking at yourself on the outside. From the outside.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay. Yeah. I just googled you. Yeah. Okay, you guys ready? It's a psychological state in which you feel detached from your own body or mental processes during an episode. You might feel like an outside observer of your own. So it's like having an outer body, out of body experience.

[Kiana Carroll]

I haven't experienced that too much. I know Rachel has, but I've had it, like, some, a few times. And, like, when I get it, it's like I look in a mirror and I'm like, okay, that's not me I'm looking at. So, like, if I'm feeling that way, looking in a mirror will freak me the fuck out.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's as if you're acting in a movie or like living in a dream. I have the opposite. I have like the most positive version of this. When I'm in New York City, I feel like I'm in my own movie and I'm the main character and I could not be happier. We don't have to get into that right now.

[Kiana Carroll]

I love your brain.

[Tom Schwartz]

But wait, so anxiety versus panic attack. Anxiety is like, I touched on this a little earlier. You did. Something's wrong. Danger. Danger. Something like racing thoughts, increased heart rate. The worst is sweaty. Sweaty. Getting sweaty and clammy when you're having anxiety is the greatest way to exacerbate it, but you can't control it. Just all this is a big one for me. Worrying about the future.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. Yes. So. Well, in a lot of ways anxiety is more. Sometimes not because sometimes you just feel this weird unsettled feeling of something's wrong and if, even if there's not anything wrong. But for the most part, I would say when I'm anxious, it's like it makes sense. Like I know what I'm anxious about. Like I'm anxious about the future. I'm anxious about work. I'm anxious about a lot of stuff going on. I'm anxious because I'm overwhelmed.

[Tom Schwartz]

Like the world feels a little too real.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I like that.

[Kiana Carroll]

I. And I prefer that. I. I would so much rather prefer that. Yes. Because I like putting like. Like that I can manage. Like, oh my God. If I'm really stressed because of things I can name, that's better. Because then I know what to target. I'm like, okay, well let's dive into why I'm stressed about work and let me figure out how to manage, how to make it less stressful. But if I'm scared for no reason, I'm like, this is terrifying. Because when is it going to end? Cuz I don't know where the start was and I don't know when the stop is.

[Tom Schwartz]

So as bad as anxiety is, there's actionable, logical steps you can take to get through it. But derealization is almost like an acid trip. But you're not on drugs. Yeah.

[Kiana Carroll]

So you don't. Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh my God, it's.

[Kiana Carroll]

And both are terrible. Like all anxiety is terrible. None of it's fun.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. No, it's not fun.

[Kiana Carroll]

Plane. Can they hear that? Plane.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's okay.

[Kiana Carroll]

Okay. Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

We're on the roof, guys.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

By the way, we're about to paint each other. I hope that doesn't trigger some sort of derealization, cuz she.

[Kiana Carroll]

I had a Good mental health day. Actually, I didn't earlier, but now I am.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're thriving right now?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

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[Tom Schwartz]

I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, that's cool.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

[Kiana Carroll]

So what's the problem?

[Tom Schwartz]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothing. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Kiana Carroll]

Wow. You need to relax.

[Tom Schwartz]

I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood?

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Is this table wood?

[Kiana Carroll]

I think it's laminate.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's good. That's close enough.

[Kiana Carroll]

Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Pick up.

[Kiana Carroll]

These may apply.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm just looking at. I'm just looking up stuff because this is all new to me.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. I remember the first time I explained what my panic attacks are like to you. And you were like, oh, my God, I am so sorry. Like, that's so scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

I've had four isolated incidents. I don't have chronic anxiety. And I did get a prescription to Ativan But I don't need it. I just like knowing it's there is that can. That. The. The power of knowing it's there can

[Kiana Carroll]

thwart anxiety for me, yes, 1,000% for me, too. I don't always have to take my medication, but I cannot go anywhere without it. And if I don't have it, that will be a huge thing that could trigger it also, because it's a huge. I really need, like, a sense of control with it. So even just knowing I have it, I'm like, okay. No matter how bad it gets, I know I have a medication that will stop it. Like, guaranteed. Even if I have to go through a little bit of anxiety and panic, like, it will end it if I don't have it with me. Oh, my God. That's the scariest feeling ever. Like, it's very, very, very seldom that I won't have anxiety medication on me.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's your armor.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. And I don't even need to take it sometimes, but, yeah, I always need it with me.

[Tom Schwartz]

Just knowing it's there is comfort enough for me, usually in a pinch. Do you have any unconventional methods that can help you calm down?

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

For people who don't.

[Tom Schwartz]

Don't have prescriptions, the benzos, Xanax or Adavan or Valium or whatever. Any, like, obviously those are the silver bullet for most people, but do you have any unconventional techniques that help you just calm down? Besides rubbing Gordo's chest, which I'm doing,

[Kiana Carroll]

and drinking wine, which I'm doing right now? I would say when I'm on set and I feel it start to come on, and I know I can't, like, run off set to take medication immediately, the first thing I'll do is focus on my breath, because it, like, gives your mind something to focus on. To try to distract myself from my thoughts. So I'll, like, count my breathing. You want to inhale or you want to exhale longer than you inhale? So I guess that's like a very simple version of breath work.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. You're talking about box breathing, right?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, I think that's.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

It's like a.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's like a quick little reset. I mean, if you're at the point where you can't breathe any. But if you. When you. This is a good technique if you feel anxiety coming on right now. So box breathing is like, you inhale for four seconds, hold it for four seconds, three, four. So, yeah, inhale four seconds, hold four seconds, exhale four seconds.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, I prefer. Yes, and that's very good. I prefer Doing eight. Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

You love the four, seven, eight. You guys. It's the same thing. It's a breathing technique. So you inhale deeply. Like, breathe that in four seconds with all of your might. Hold it in for seven, and then slowly exhale for eight seconds. Four, seven, eight. You guys. It's a good one. It really works. Coming from someone who's thwarted several. Could be panic attacks with the 478 technique, like, very early on.

[Kiana Carroll]

Oh, you too? 478.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I love 478.

[Kiana Carroll]

Oh, okay. We're 478, girly.

[Tom Schwartz]

You guys, just real quick again, because I know we were just doing audio today. Yeah. Breathe in four seconds. Hold your breath seven seconds. And after seven, exhale slowly with a whoosh. Eight seconds. It's good just for a grounding technique and just to stop and feel a little more present. It's really nice, by the way.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. 4, 7, 8 is my favorite. It feels like I. And then also, my mom tried. My mom, I'm so jealous of her. She, like, doesn't get anxiety bad or, like, get panic attacks, but she's so, so, so amazing and supportive and, like, just the best mom ever in the whole world. And when I call her, she helps me with the breathing, but she'll also help me. And you say this too. Like, imagine all those thoughts, like, just, like, as clouds. Or like, you just tell me, like, they're going away, they're washing away. She told me to imagine them as, like, clouds just, like, passing in the sky. So I try to, like, do, like. Like, visualize things to like, make it feel more grounded and real and be like, okay, I'm just. I. These thoughts are happening, and imagine them just going away. And they're gonna go away. And then also, Rachel said the best advice ever to me, which, I know this is gonna sound so obvious to most people, but for some reason, it changed my life. I was in the middle of a panic attack once with her. We were, like, sitting on the side of the road because I couldn't even get back into the car. Cause I was freaking out. And I was just telling her, like, I'm so scared. I'm so scared. I'm so scared, like, it's about to happen. And she told me, no matter how bad it gets, even if you're rolling on the floor crying and screaming, it will end. And I was like, oh, my God. Okay, you're right.

[Tom Schwartz]

This too shall pass.

[Kiana Carroll]

There will be an end. So that always comforts me. I always remind myself, no matter how bad it gets, There will be an end.

[Tom Schwartz]

Then I'd be like, what if this is the end?

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, I've had that too, so I've definitely gotten there.

[Tom Schwartz]

But if you're like, again, just for the people who don't know you, you are literally one of the most well balanced human beings I've ever known. But you anxiety is a.

[Kiana Carroll]

This is like my kryptonite.

[Tom Schwartz]

Anxiety is a. I know people who have it, but I think there's like not a sense of shame or stigma, but they're like, it's emasculating sometimes as a man not to get into the whole as, as a human being. It's like almost. It's a, it's emasculating.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's vulnerable. Like I'll be on set and like I have certain clients that know me so well, so they know if I'm having anxiety. Like they know the drill. Like someone's got to give me a hug right now. Hugs are very helpful. But there's been times where I'm on and drugs. Well, I guess, yeah. But legal ones that are from my doctor.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Okay.

[Kiana Carroll]

I don't do illicit drugs, but a hug will really help. But what were you just. Oh yeah. It can be super vulnerable and a little embarrassing sometimes because like, it doesn't make sense. So there have been times where I'm on set with a new client and I'm like starting to feel scared. I'm like, oh my God. Like, do I say something? Because usually when you say it, that's bad. Better, cuz you want to get it off your chest. You're like, oh my God, I'm going to sound crazy. Like, this is embarrassing.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's okay to not be okay. Although if someone said that while I was having a panic attack, I'd be like, you. You just made it worse. Yeah, give me a sour patch, kid. Have you heard about this technique?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes, I have. And I, I for a while would always carry a warhead in my pocket.

[Tom Schwartz]

Wait, you, you've actually tried it? Wait, can you talk us through this?

[Kiana Carroll]

So a very popular technique, or I don't know how popular it is, but a technique is to have sour candy. I guess like the sense behind it would be that's such like a overwhelming sensation that you're focused on that and set instead.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's a sensory shock. So it's all you can focus on is how sour it is and it makes you forget that you're actually having.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's actually been a little bit helpful for me before I've done it when it's like a mild. Come on. So like I. It was manageable. But it did help. It did distract me. Cuz then I started talking with everyone on set. It happened when I was at work and I was like, damn, this is sour. It's another form, like something to talk about. It, like, distracted me.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, it's another form of like splashing really cold water in your face or putting ice on your heart, which would be good.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

I also, like you guys, don't judge me for this. I'm being candid here. It's a podcast, but again, a pinch. There's been a few times where I've taken a Benadryl and I've had a glass of wine.

[Kiana Carroll]

Wow, you're crazy.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't obviously like long term. I don't recommend this, but it does work in a pinch. If you're not, you know, you don't have a prescription. Like, you're having your first panic attack. You're freaking out.

[Kiana Carroll]

Don't take any medical advice from us,

[Tom Schwartz]

please, please, for the love of God. They're gonna listen to this episode and have a box of Sour Patch Kids warheads and some Benadryl.

[Kiana Carroll]

You could do that, but a bottle

[Tom Schwartz]

of bubbly in their bag.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, that was one tip. You said like splashing cold water on your face. That's one tip. My old therapist used to always tell me, but I'd be like, so often I get it at work, I can't do that. I have a full face of makeup on that I can't mess up. So. So I can't splash water on my face. So the sour candy, that's helpful.

[Tom Schwartz]

Another good one is like, obviously this is not good when you're traveling or on a plane or on the go, but a nice weighted blanket can be so comforting. It just really, it's really good. It's just calming your nervous system. Rest, digest. It's very grounding.

[Kiana Carroll]

My mom got me for my apartment in la, a weighted panda stuffed animal that I'll like lay on my chest. And it's very comfortable because I don't have a pet myself in la. And it kind of feels like you have like a cat or a dog laying on you. So it's really comforting.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm glad you said that because for me, like, the ultimate cures for anxiety. Gordo, Butters. Having dogs, any pets at all, like,

[Kiana Carroll]

they're just, oh, my God, I could cry. Like, I literally miss my cat so much because she was such a savior with my anxiety. Oh my gosh. And they like Know.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, they know, they know.

[Kiana Carroll]

They know when it's happening and they'll come and they'll rescue you. Animals are so amazing.

[Tom Schwartz]

Butters will lick my face, which I love. When I'm stressed out, aggravated of having some angst, Butters and Gordo, Gordo will come up and lay on my chest and Butters will come lick my face.

[Kiana Carroll]

So I don't like licks, but I do like a lay.

[Tom Schwartz]

So you have a thing called boundaries. I never had this. I do also like another good one. Holding on to something heavy. I don't know if you've ever tried that, like holding on to like a couple weights. If you have dumbbells or picking up,

[Kiana Carroll]

I've never even heard of that.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's kind of smart not to stress yourself out, not to like max out. So you're like, you know, trembling but

[Kiana Carroll]

just if you're already in that state, don't do that. But I feel at the beginning stages that could be helpful.

[Tom Schwartz]

It just helps sense like a nice physical sense of stability, you know? Does it make sense? It makes sense to me, kind of. Yeah, it makes sense to me.

[Kiana Carroll]

I most of these make sense to me, but anxiety itself just doesn't make sense. Which, yeah, I also would like to emphasize I'm not crazy, guys. And I also have like long stints where I am better. But yeah, it kind of comes in like I have waves where I have like a month where it just feels like I can't escape this horror film of my mind. And then I have some months where I'm like, oh my God. Okay, I could breathe. This one was a little bit better.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

This is a safe place.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's National Mental Health Awareness Month.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, it's not anymore, but we're still aware.

[Tom Schwartz]

We're still aware, exactly. Still creating awareness triggers. Just set, set and setting. Avoiding your triggers, Avoiding things that you know, like for instance, I love airports, I love flying. But there's a few times where I've got stuck in the way back and I have a window seat with two people so I feel claustrophobic and I can't get up cuz I'm going to wake them up, they're sound asleep. That right there is a great way to trigger an anxiety attack for me.

[Kiana Carroll]

Flying used to be debilitating for me without medication. And I am so grateful for medication because like I take like 50 to 90 flights a year and I used to spend like the whole entire time on the plane, like not screaming but like pulling up my hair, crying, being so distressed, like texting my mom, bless her heart, always being able to answer me. And then now exposure therapy also, I guess was a big one because I have to fly so much that I don't have the luxury to freak out every time. Cuz I would spend like all my time just freaking out. But yeah, medication and just exposure really helped with my flying. But flying, my fear of flying is not like the crash. Like, people always give advice for flight anxiety and they talk about how rare it would be to get in a plane crash. Mine is the feeling of like being trapped. I hate knowing I'm on this thing and I have no way to get off and I have no choice and I have no control over it. That's why I hate long flights.

[Tom Schwartz]

Did an episode of spongebob squarepants trigger all of this? Did it have a snowball effect on your mental health?

[Kiana Carroll]

Kind of. Me and Rachel were talking about it. If anyone's ever experienced derealization and knows the spongebob episode where Squidward goes to, like the place where it's nothing. Yeah. You guys know what I'm talking about. It was scary. It was.

[Tom Schwartz]

So spongebob is the root of all of your existential dread?

[Kiana Carroll]

No, SpongeBob just gets it.

[Tom Schwartz]

SpongeBob does get it.

[Kiana Carroll]

It was gonna exist with or without spongebob, but he gets me.

[Tom Schwartz]

He does. Any other creature comforts for people suffering from anxiety who maybe don't have a readily, readily available prescription to. Let's just say what are the, the, what's, what's the holy trinity?

[Kiana Carroll]

Valium, Valium, Xanax, Clin. Let me name all the ones I've tried. Yeah, I mean, those are just. Yeah. Like 100% foolproof methods.

[Tom Schwartz]

Ashwagandha. There's, there's natural remedies. Listen, these are.

[Kiana Carroll]

And I've tried all of them. Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

By the way, these are not to replace. They're to supplement.

[Kiana Carroll]

But it would be great if they could replace also. But yeah, they aren't to replace. But it is awesome for people that do find natural remedies that do replace.

[Tom Schwartz]

And you guys are some really good ones out there. There. I have ashwagandha.

[Kiana Carroll]

Ashwagandha.

[Tom Schwartz]

I have ashwagandha slash magnesium capsules. And they. Magnesium helps calm me down.

[Kiana Carroll]

I would say magnesium. Out of all the like, like more. What would you call it?

[Tom Schwartz]

Like, I love magnesium before I go to sleep. It really is.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, I would say for sleep. Yeah. The non actual prescription drug help pills. Magnesium's the only one that I found actual help from. But I would say aside from Everything else I talked about. The number one thing for me, I'm so fortunate is having, like, the most comforting support system ever. Like, I know in any moment, I immediately will either call you, my mom, Rachel, or Mikey, and they will calm me down, like, as much as they can in that moment. But that is, like, my go to,

[Tom Schwartz]

like, if I'm having a good support system. That's so sweet.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Kiana Carroll]

It's, like, saved my life, like, my whole life. It's the best thing ever.

[Tom Schwartz]

You're so fortunate to have that. I was thinking, in a pinch, and this is unconventional, and if you're gonna do this, make sure it's consensual. But every once in a while before we would go live on shows, like, during press days, I would get a little bit of anxiety. That thought would start creating, creeping in my head, and I'd be like, sandoval, can you slap me in the face? And he would smack me hard as you can be smacked without, like, bruising me. And it would, like, snap me out of it.

[Kiana Carroll]

I've smacked myself, like, okay, I have. I started and being like, stop, Kiana, stop. We're not doing this. We're not doing this today. No, no, no. But instead of smacking, if I'm with someone else, what I ask for is a really, really, really tight hug. It's so helpful. Like, when we were on the plane back from Cabo, I started getting a panic attack, and you were hugging me really tight. And that's so helpful, like, a really, really tight hug. And every. My immediate support system, which is, I guess, like, all my friends, because I have a very small circle. They all know, like, how to sense if it's coming on, how to sense if it's bad. And they all know, like, immediately give me a tight hug and, like, yeah, just, like, hold me. Like, that's very grounding to be held. Or if I'm not that with them in person, like, if I'm calling my mom, they just know, like, tell me it'll pass. Remind me it'll pass. Hold me and remind me it will end.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes.

[Kiana Carroll]

No. Feeling is final, you guys.

[Tom Schwartz]

If you made it this far, we're sending you. How about some nice, peaceful words? Serene, calm, composed, placid, tranquil, undisturbed, unruffled, unfuckable with untroubled content, unworried. Kiana's like, okay,

[Kiana Carroll]

Those are beautiful words, sweetie.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I guess we're a little late on National Mental Health Awareness Month, but

[Kiana Carroll]

we're still raising awareness. And anyone that has anxiety. I see you, I feel you, and you will be okay. Even though it's so scary sometimes.

[Tom Schwartz]

And you are not alone.

[Kiana Carroll]

You are not alone.

[Tom Schwartz]

Listen, and if you really need it, don't be ashamed to go get a

[Kiana Carroll]

prescription or talk to a therapist. Even that like sometimes people better helps.

[Tom Schwartz]

Great.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah, sometimes people feel, I don't know, scared to like reach out for any sort of help. But help is there. Find help, find support, A doctor, a

[Tom Schwartz]

friend, a back room.

[Kiana Carroll]

Don't find a back room. But the things I said. Listen to me, not him.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, you've helped me conquer a fear today and some angst, which is not having structure when I do a podcast. You guys, sorry, I don't really know how to just yap. But thank you for getting me.

[Kiana Carroll]

Did I do a good job?

[Tom Schwartz]

You did a great job. But I like to have structure. I like to write down questions.

[Kiana Carroll]

I feel you kind of did.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I'm kind of going off the cuff and googling things, but thanks for helping me. Just talk freely.

[Kiana Carroll]

Well, I hope that I helped make it easy.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

You did.

[Tom Schwartz]

Because I usually have anxiety if I like to be over prepared for everything in life, especially interviews.

[Kiana Carroll]

You know what's funny is I have such bad anxiety. But my mom always says it's in the weirdest ways because I like being super unprepared for everything. It's the same way I'm super late to the airport, which stresses him out. I'm scared to sit on the plane, but I'm not scared to be the last one to get on.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I think the Sour patch method is kind of similar to your technique. Before we go, can you explain why, why you like being late and getting there at the last second? So you have flight anxiety?

[Kiana Carroll]

Yes, and like I said, my flight anxiety is about being trapped on there. And that is just like I hate thinking about that. Like I hate thinking, okay, I'm about to be on this thing, I have no control over it. So what I like to do is a way less scary anxiety is missing my flight. Cuz I'm like, okay, I'll just get on the next one. So I. It's now become subconscious. I don't even do it on purpose, but I am chronically late to every flight. I usually am in the Uber still when it starts boarding. And I'm just like, I just have to get there before doors close. So I freak. I freak myself out enough about like I have to make my flight that by the time I get on the plane I'm just like, okay, thank God, I made the flight and then I'm like, oh. Like, I didn't give myself that much time to think about how scared I am to be on this plane. I'm just grateful I actually made it on the plane. And the one time I was early by myself. If I'm early with you, it's fine. But the one time I was early by myself, I actually had a panic attack.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Yeah.

[Kiana Carroll]

I had to call my mom crying because I, like, had too much time to sit there and think about how I was about to be stuck on the plane.

[Tom Schwartz]

By the way, I've witnessed many. Not to scare people. I've witnessed many panic attacks on planes. I can. I know. I know how to recognize one when you see someone going through it.

[Kiana Carroll]

Real recognizes game.

[Tom Schwartz]

Recognizes game. But, you guys, listen, we're going to finish this bottle of wine. We're going to smoke a cigarette.

[Kiana Carroll]

No, we're not, Mom.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay?

[Kiana Carroll]

No, we're not.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't even smoke, but it just feels right. Before we paint a. We're gonna paint. I'm gonna post the pictures on my Instagram. And you guys, I love you. Thanks for tuning in, Kiki. Love you.

[Kiana Carroll]

I swear, I'm not that crazy. But you're not crazy at all. Thank you for listening.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thank you for being so vulnerable.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. Because I hope this was helpful to at least someone to not feel so alone. Because it's scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

We all go through it in our own little ways.

[Kiana Carroll]

Yeah. And thanks for listening to me, guys.

[Tom Schwartz]

Make sure to stock up on that Sour Patch Kids warheads or Benzo or Benadryl. All right, thanks, you guys. We're signing off. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto tv.

[Kiana Carroll]

Then I heard a voice.

[Tom Schwartz]

Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows,

[Kiana Carroll]

and they were all free.

[Tom Schwartz]

Truth is, it's just so Beautiful on Pluto TV.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe, Arrow, the 100 and the X Files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials.

[Tom Schwartz]

No credit cards or alien encounters necessary.

[Podcast Host (Retox)]

Pluto TV Stream now pay. Never.