8 Marks of a Healthy Church (A Conversation with my Dad)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis

Episode: 8 Marks of a Healthy Church (A Conversation with my Dad)

Date: July 14, 2026
Host: Jonny Ardavanis
Guest: Scott Aranis (Pastor, Grace Church of the Valley, CA)

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Overview

This episode centers on the question: What are the unchanging marks of a healthy church, regardless of cultural trends or shifting strategies? Jonny Ardavanis sits down with his father, Scott Aranis, to discuss eight key pillars that define a biblically healthy church. Their conversation pushes back against the "change with the times or die" mindset, asserting that scriptural truths—not cultural adaptations—should define the church's identity, health, and mission.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Temptation to "Change with the Times"

Timestamps: [00:35 - 05:00]

• Jonny opens by referencing Blockbuster’s decline as a cautionary tale, likening churches urged to update or risk extinction.
• He poses the central question: Should churches adapt like businesses to survive, or are there foundational, timeless principles that define health?

Quote:

"Is it true that churches need to change with the times or die? Or are there certain things, principles or pillars of a church that are transcendent of culture and context that every believer needs to know?" —Jonny Ardavanis [05:00]

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2. Pillar 1: A High View of God

Timestamps: [05:23 - 09:06]

• Scott: A healthy church begins with “a high view of God.”
• God’s unchanging nature means the church isn’t meant to be a cultural commodity.
• Key Point: “God’s character doesn’t change."
• The church’s main task: to reflect God’s glory and character as revealed in scripture.

Quote:

"The scripture transcends all culture. The main thrust of the church is not to look like the culture. The main thrust of the church would be to present a high view of God that's revealed in the scripture." —Scott Aranis [05:23]

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3. Pillar 2: A High View of Scripture

Timestamps: [06:27 - 13:44]

• The authority, sufficiency, and centrality of God’s word must shape all church life.
• Sound doctrine and expositional preaching are essential.
• Preaching should reveal the intent of the biblical authors; not be shaped by personality or trends.

Quotes:

“The foundational pillar is what you do with the Word of God.” —Scott Aranis [08:22]
"The duty of a pastor is to not be clever...but to get the intent of what the author wrote in the scripture." —Scott Aranis [11:12]

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4. Pillar 3: Every Member Ministry

Timestamps: [13:44 - 15:57]

• The church is not a spectator event (“Lambeau Field” analogy); everyone is to serve and build up one another.
• Pastors equip saints for works of ministry; mature believers minister to the body throughout the week.

Quote:

“The church is not to be full of observers or an audience. It's people that minister to each other.” —Jonny Ardavanis [13:44]

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5. Pillar 4: Holiness and Discipleship

Timestamps: [15:57 - 19:27]

• Holiness is God’s will for every believer (1 Thess. 4:3; Ephesians 1:4).
• Discipleship is both modeled and pursued; older believers invest in younger.
• Pursuit of holiness is not legalism but God’s transformative plan.

Memorable Moment:
The discussion on the importance of not seeing the pursuit of holiness as legalism but as obedience to God’s will.

Quote:

“The purpose of a church and the goal of it should be to look more like Jesus Christ...the church ought to be a place that's nurturing those discipleship relationships.” —Scott Aranis [17:14]

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6. Pillar 5: Christ-Centered, Spirit-Filled Worship

Timestamps: [19:27 - 24:21]

• Worship is more than music but includes corporate singing, sacraments, and all of life (Romans 12).
• Worship must be participatory (“singing to one another” – Eph. 5, Col. 3).
• The Lord’s Table and baptism are vital expressions of worship.

Quotes:

“When the people of God gather, it is a biblical command to sing to the Lord...this matters to God, so it should matter to the church.” —Jonny Ardavanis [19:48]
“When you have a group of people that are spirit filled, walking in the spirit, singing at the top of their lungs...God does something in the midst of that corporately.” —Scott Aranis [23:25]

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7. Pillar 6: Prayer

Timestamps: [24:21 - 25:53]

• Prayer is not an afterthought but a primary devotion of the early church (Acts 2:42; Acts 6).
• Commitment to prayer must mark both the church collectively and believers individually.

Quote:

“Prayer becomes kind of anecdotal to a service or to a believer's life, but it's a primary commitment.” —Jonny Ardavanis [24:21]

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8. Pillar 7: Gospel-Centered Focus (Local & Global Mission)

Timestamps: [25:53 - 27:53]

• Healthy churches extend the gospel both locally and globally (cf. Acts 1:8).
• Mission is not secondary; every church must be engaged in evangelism and discipleship “to the ends of the earth.”
• They share stories of sending members overseas as missionaries.

Quote:

“It's preaching, it's worshiping, it's discipling, but it is extending the kingdom. That extension of the kingdom is both local in your own sphere...but it's also a global effect to the world.” —Scott Aranis [26:16]

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9. Pillar 8: Qualified Biblical Leadership

Timestamps: [27:53 - 32:06]

• The episode wraps by emphasizing the vital role of biblically qualified elders.
• Healthy leadership is indispensable for church health, rooted in explicit biblical qualifications (Titus 1, 1 Timothy 3).
• This topic is a setup for a future, more detailed episode.

Quote:

“It's impossible to have a healthy church without healthy leadership...Paul dropped Titus...behind enemy lines into the island of Crete...to appoint elders in every city as I directed you. Without understanding the role of elders and deacons, it's going to be hard to model the truths that we've been talking about." —Scott Aranis [30:10]

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Notable Quotes, Questions & Memorable Moments

• On the temptation to modernize:

  "The main thrust of the church is not to look like the culture." —Scott Aranis [05:23]

• On preaching:

  "A lot of people who think their church is committed to expository preaching...you will know that when you hear the voice of Scripture coming out of the pastor." —Scott Aranis [12:07]

• On church participation:

  "Every member, ministry—pastors preach, congregations worship...you be building up the body so that the body releases their gifts to one another, not just on Sunday, but throughout the week." —Scott Aranis [15:31]

• On holiness:

  “To not be moving forward in that [sanctification] is to have a truncated theology that leaves your people without impetus to grow into the likeness of Christ.” —Scott Aranis [19:12]

• On worship:

  “Worship is not...You're not an audience. Biblical worship is participatory.” —Joni Ardavanis [23:02]

• On leadership:

  “Every believer needs to have an understanding of God's design for the leadership in the church. Because if you don't...you won't know if you're in a healthy one.” —Jonny Ardavanis [31:40]

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Episode Structure with Timestamps

• [00:35] Introductions & the Blockbuster analogy
• [05:00] What’s a healthy church? The two biggest pillars
• [07:14] What does a high view of God look like?
• [09:59] How do you know if your church has a high view of God?
• [10:51] The role and necessity of preaching
• [13:44] Every member ministry
• [15:57] The importance of holiness & discipleship
• [19:27] What is worship? Its centrality and biblical shape
• [24:21] The role of prayer in a healthy church
• [25:53] A gospel-centered focus (local and global mission)
• [27:53] The necessity of qualified leadership: elders
• [30:10] Why healthy leadership is critical
• [31:40] Advanced setup for the next episode: deep dive into biblical leadership

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is conversational and affectionate (father & son), blending personal anecdotes with deep scriptural conviction. There’s an earnest rejection of business trends as models for church health—"I’m not scratching my head as to the playbook...When we look to God’s word, elders lead churches…" (Jonny [29:17]). The tone is both pastoral and practical, calling listeners not just to “find” a healthy church, but to weigh and pursue each biblical mark themselves.

Listeners are left with these core takeaways:

• Church health is defined by clear, biblical markers—not by innovation, trend, or tradition.
• Every believer must know what to look for in a church—and pursue it where they are.
• Leadership, mission, holiness, and true worship are non-negotiable for a church that glorifies Christ.

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This summary is intended to provide rich, structured insight for those considering church health from a biblical perspective—even if they’ve never listened to the episode themselves.

Transcript

[John Piper]

This episode of Dial in is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of the Pleasures of God, Meditations on God's delight in being God and this beloved classic. Pastor and best selling author John Piper searches scripture to uncover the pleasures that delight the heart of God. Each chapter focuses on a specific joy, the glory of his son, the beauty of creation, the richness of his grace, the prayers of his people, and more. Pick up a copy of the Pleasures

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

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[John Piper]

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[Joni Eareckson Tada]

You've been a pastor my entire life. I don't know if I've ever talked about this really on the island, but I've been a pastor's kid since the day I was born. I've heard it often said if the church doesn't change their strategy, they're going to lose the next generation. Many churches in America have failed to learn the lessons from marketplace companies such as Kodak and Blockbuster. Change with the times or die. Is it true that churches need to change with the times or die? Or are there certain things, principles or pillars of a church that are transcendent of culture and context that every believer needs to know? What would you say? Welcome to the Dial in podcast. Today I'm sitting down with none other than Scott Aranis, AKA the Big Poppy. Dad, you have seven children. I think it's no secret I'm your favorite.

[Scott Aranis]

No doubt, no doubt, no doubt.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

First time on dial in. Tell people where you pastor. You've been a pastor my entire life, I think. I don't know if I've ever talked about this really on Dial in, but I've been a pastor's kid since the day I was born. Tell people where you serve, where you're

[Scott Aranis]

a pastor right now pastoring in the state of California, right in the middle in Central California in the city of Kingsburg, Grace Church of the Valley. And I've been there the last 15 years.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Okay, well I grateful to be your son. And one of the things I maybe was thinking about as we jump into the episode growing up every other Friday or so we used to pile into the 15 passenger van. There were seven of us used to drive us around. I remember you used to get like a drink at Taco Bell and you'd pass back for a sip and then you'd get it back empty and just hear the slurping of the ice. But we would all hop in the van and we would go to a store called Blockbuster and this was like a Family tradition. We would walk in, we'd get Rudy or, I don't know, remember the Titans, and we would go and rent movies. And at one point, probably in the 90s, statistically, they had 9,000 stores, 9,000 blockbusters with 84,000 employees, and it was a company worth over $9 billion. But when I was in high school, I started hearing about this strange idea that you could order DVDs and rent them and they would be delivered straight to your door. And at one point, Blockbuster had the opportunity to purchase this company that would send DVDs right to your door, and they could purchase it for $50 million. And they passed on this company, which in their mind was doomed to fail. The Blockbuster CEO at the time, James Key, said, I've been frankly confused by this fascination that everybody has with Netflix. Netflix doesn't really do anything that we can't or don't already do ourselves. Well, in a matter of years, that company that was once an icon of American business was reduced, this is Blockbuster, to a single location. You can still knock yourself out and go to Blockbuster today with your family, but you'd have to drive to Bend, Oregon, where the only remaining Blockbuster exists. And that once multibillion dollar business, Blockbuster was being traded in recent years for a fraction of a penny and now is no longer in existence as a tradable stock. And the company that they passed on buying Netflix, is now worth, I think, as of today, some 320 billion. Similar to your net worth.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah, maybe just a little more.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

People ask the question, what happened to Blockbuster? What happened to this once thriving institution? And one writer says, Thomas McDaniels, he says that many churches have done the same thing that Blockbuster is doing. He says many churches in America have failed to learn the lessons from Marketplace companies such as Kodak and Blockbuster. He says, change with the times or die. Blockbuster became irrelevant. They didn't adapt, they didn't innovate, they didn't change with the times, and therefore they died. And you have other people writing today saying, hey, this is what churches need to do. I've heard it often said, hey, if the church doesn't change their strategy, they're going to lose the next generation, as this Thomas McDaniel says. He says, change with the times or die. But, you know, in my conversation with you, my understanding of a church is not just derived from books or from reading the scripture necessarily. It's from growing up in your home. And I want to ask that question, is that true? You know, like, change with the times or die. And we've been dialoguing before we hopped on here, and I think we've been dialoguing about this my entire life.

[Scott Aranis]

Life.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And as a pastor now we. We go back and forth so much. But I just want to talk about the marks of a healthy church. You know, like, is it true that churches need to change with the times or die? Or are there certain principles or pillars of a church that are transcendent of culture and context that every believer needs to know? What would you say?

[Scott Aranis]

Absolutely. I think of that line, that phrase you gave on the pillars of a healthy church, coming back even to your opening illustration on Blockbuster. I think it's crucial. There's two pillars that stand out to me, not the only ones, but two. At the very top of that list would be, number one, a high view of God, and secondly, a high view of scripture. So when you think about the church, it's not a commodity that's changing with the culture. And the reason is because, number one, God's character doesn't change. That's a high view of him. And then, secondly, the scriptures never change. So we would teach that the scripture transcends all culture. And the main thrust of the church is not to look like the culture. The main thrust of the church would be to present a high view of God that's revealed in the scripture. And secondly, a high view of scripture that it's the very breath of. Of God and his word that is truth to us today.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

So let's go back.

[Scott Aranis]

We.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

We wrote down, yeah, eight pillars. You know, regardless of where you are, you may be watching or listening, you may be asking the question, I want to be a part of a healthy church. I wrote down that there are, I think, 11,000 churches in Tennessee. You know, where I live, and I'm in Franklin, Tennessee, just south of Nashville. What should someone be looking for in a church? You just mentioned two. And I want to kind of circle back and punctuate a couple things on the first of those two. Yeah, but we wrote down eight pillars of a healthy church. Some of these have subcomponents, you know, and we'll talk about those as we go. But let's go back to the first one. Meaning a church, its health is established upon this primary principle of a high view of God. Now, let's just extrapolate on that. When you say, if someone says, you know, Scott, I want to know if my church is a healthy church, and you say, well, do they have a high view of God?

[Scott Aranis]

Right.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

What do you mean by that? And what does that look like, yeah,

[Scott Aranis]

a high view of God is a way of expressing his character that's revealed to us in the scripture that tells us about his character, his name, his nature. So when you think about what the role of the church is, the role of the church should be presenting to the people who are in that local body a high view of his character, his attributes that are revealed in the Word of God. When it says Joni in Ephesians 3:21, to him be the glory in the church, and in Christ Jesus forever and ever to him be the glory. What is the glory of God? It's the honor of God. In the Old Testament, it was called kavod. It was the weight of God. And so when you think of his glory in the church, you're asking that the character and worth and nature and person of God be revealed in the church. And so I call that a high view of God as revealed in the Word of God. When you get to the pastorals, Paul kept telling Titus pastoral epistles. Yeah, to the pastoral epistles, he told Titus to preach sound doctrine. I was looking at that again in 2 Timothy. Even this morning, he told him to retain the standard of sound words. And you see this over and over again of apostolic doctrine, truth that came from the apostles and the books that have been given to us in the scripture. So when you think about the pillar of a local church, it would be fair to say that the foundational pillar is what you do with the Word of God.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

As you head into the summer, one of the things that I would highly encourage you to have is some sort of digital accountability on your devices. The Puritans used to draw attention to the reality that an idle mind is the devil's playground, meaning that when we are idle and we have time, we are more vulnerable to temptation. In this regard, I would highly recommend you. Accountable to you. It's a purity accountability software that I use personally and other members of my team do as well. You can go to accountabletoyou.com dial in and use our code dial in to get 25% off your first year and you can find out more information there. Find an accountability partner. And as my friend says, accountability is the friend of integrity. And that's our goal, to honor the Lord when we're alone, as we would in front of other people. And so check out accountabletoyou.com you know, if you might be asking the question, well, how do I know if my church has a high view of God? Well, there's going to be a joy in your church, but it's not glib. It's not flippant.

[Scott Aranis]

Right.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

It's not cavalier in a way that.

[Scott Aranis]

Not programs.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Yeah. Not just programs.

[Scott Aranis]

It's not just events.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

We're here to worship God. Right. And we'll talk about that more in regards to worship. But we're here to make much of God. And what you're mentioning with this high view of God, it's obviously this derivative of a high view of scripture, which means there's a commitment to sound doctrine, and it means that the church is committed to the preaching of the word of God. Now, even that idea of preaching, sometimes in the contemporary culture, you're seeing even kind of like a reluctance to use the word preaching. This is one of my favorite talks of Jesus. This is one of my favorite messages of Jesus or sayings of Jesus. And so I think people don't want to use that word preaching, because it sounds authoritative. It might be, but that's what the scripture tells pastors to do, is to preach the word.

[Scott Aranis]

Yes.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And maybe just talk about that for a minute. You know, as a healthy church, I want to find, you know, I want to be in a healthy church. Someone might be saying, when you say a high view of Scripture, that's demonstrated by a commitment to preaching the Bible, how would you. To a novice in an elevator, someone says, what do you mean by preaching the Bible? How would you explain that?

[Scott Aranis]

I think you alluded to it, Joni. Maybe to say it another way, as I was in 2 Timothy, as I prepare to open that book, I have one passion in preaching that book to the people at Grace Church of the Valley is to get them to what we would call the authorial will of the authority. Paul in that passage in book is speaking to Timothy. And really, the duty of a pastor is to not be clever. It's to not be glib. It's to not manufacture his personality. He has but one goal, and that's to get the intent of what the author wrote in the scripture. So I was spending time this morning mining what that means. Even when he says to Timothy, grace, mercy, and peace to you, and when he called him my beloved Son according to the promise of eternal life, all those words matter because they're the very breath of God. Joni, I think you're right. A lot of people who think that their church is committed to expository preaching, I think many of them are not. You will know that when you hear the voice of scripture coming out of the voice of. Of the pastor, that's preaching. And for Paul, he was not only called as an apostle. He was also called as a preacher. And that very word in the New Testament speaks of a proclamation of truth. So I think when you say a high view of God is the pastor revealing the intent of the author who wrote that particular book. And then by way of definition were line by line, precept by precept. And my bread and butter is I just go through one book to another. So I just. I was in the Gospel of John, then I did the book of Daniel from chapter one to chapter 12. And then for seven years. No, it wasn't. Well, I don't think it was that long. It got long though, between some breaks.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

I think I was in high school.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah, but I just. You just. You're pushing through the Scripture because I don't have another gimmick. I don't have my cleverness. It's not our wisdom or our power of our rhetoric. It has to be grounded in the Word. And I think that's why it's important that a man is trained to study the Scripture.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

That's not that all topical preaching is wrong topically. I'm preaching topically this summer.

[Scott Aranis]

Correct.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

So high view of God, high view of Scripture. We wrote down every member ministry number three, meaning that believers within the body of Christ, they serve. I remember you giving the example and I don't think it was yours originally that the church is likened to Lambeau field, you know, 80,000 people watching, 22 people sweat. You know, Packer Stadium. The church is not to be full of observers or an audience. It's people that minister to each other. Maybe just talk about that for a moment. The healthy church is where every member ministers and every member ministry doing the one another's which includes this element of membership within the church. Talk about that for a moment.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah, just maybe I'll dovetail both what we just talked about about the pastor's role. It's very explicitly stated that in Ephesians 4:11, he gave apostles, he gave prophets, those are foundational evangelists. And then he gave pastors and teachers. And then it's very clear what those pastors and teachers do. It says in Ephesians 4:12, they equip the saints to do the work of ministry. To equip means to build up the saints. In fact, it's a word that spoke of the construction of a house being built up. And so pastors have been given by Christ as gifts to the church and to build and equip the saints. And I take that to maturity. Doesn't mean full maturity, but Once the saints are equipped, it says it's maturity, I think. Yeah.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

It's something we've been battling for a while. Maturity or maturity?

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah, maturity. Yeah. I say. What was I using? I was saying, you say it the

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

way JMac does maturity.

[Scott Aranis]

And I just think you're building up the saints to do the work of the ministry. So what we mean by that statement, every member, ministry, pastors preach, congregations worship. We'll talk about that in a moment. With the key purpose that you be building up the body so that the body releases their gifts to one another, not just on Sunday, but throughout the week. Throughout the week, yeah.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Super important. Fourth principle we wrote down is just, I would say, a desire for holiness, both in. That's going to be. If your church has a high view of God.

[Scott Aranis]

Yes.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Right. The people that are a part of that church, the pastors are going to desire for the people in that church and the believers within that church family to be more like Christ. This includes a commitment to discipleship. This is the will of God for our life. 1 Thessalonians 4:3. This is the will of God. What's that? Your sanctification. Sanctification is a lifelong process by which we become more like Christ. And if it's the will of God for our life that we become more like him, then it's got to be the goal of the church for people to be presented as holy and blameless before Him. This is why he chose us in him. Right. Ephesians 1:4, before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless. So this includes discipleship, which I want to touch on for a moment. This element of. For it to be a healthy church, there has to be the modeling that you see in Titus 2 of older men discipling younger men, older women discipling younger women. That's what's necessary, because there's a goal, there's an objective in the church to present the members that are a part of it, not just to use their gifts, but to be made more like Christ. And that's a team project.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah. Everybody we say, I like to say, has to have their oars in the water moving towards the mark of maturity, which is Christ likeness, which, again, Joni, as we come back to the purpose, and we've talked about this a lot, the purpose of a church and the goal of it should be to look more like Jesus Christ. Now, you and I both know, as shepherds, we're imperfect, our people are imperfect, we're not in glory yet. And yet this theme of holiness is found Even in Ephesians 5, when you think of Christ, that he might sanctify her by the washing of the water with the word, that he might present her holy and blameless before him. And that will only be arrived at in heaven. But the church ought to be a place that's nurturing those discipleship relationships and admonishing the older men, the older women, the younger women, the younger men, and those in the marketplace to look and think and talk and act like the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

I think maybe somewhere along the lines, some churches have thought that if we push people towards holiness, it's legalism. But the reality is, if it's a biblical church, they're going to care a lot about holiness, wanting to be more like Jesus. That's the will of God for our life. Ephesians 5:1, Be imitators of God. So that's a big goal. Okay, number five is.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah, but wait, you would just even say theologically it's a very truncated view, is it not? When you think of the big parameters of glorification, you think of justification, sanctification and glorification. Justification, obviously, is dealing with our standing in evangelism, things we're declared righteous. Yeah, but then sanctification is part of that.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

It's a process.

[Scott Aranis]

So to not be moving forward in that is to have a truncated theology that leaves your people without impetus to grow into the. The likeness of Christ. So you preach that and you model that.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Yeah, no, it's great. Fifth here is Christ centered, Spirit filled worship. And this is not just singing. Right. Romans 12 is, I beseech you, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifices as your reasonable service of worship. Meaning worship is our life. Sometimes when we talk about worship, people say, well, worship isn't just singing.

[Scott Aranis]

Right.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

It's your life. Which would be true. But then there's also this element of. And that could be its own message. And we'll talk about that more like our whole life being worshiped. But when the people of God gather, it is a biblical command to sing to the Lord. And this isn't like some sort of peripheral, you know, imperative. It says in Psalm 95, oh, come let us sing to the Lord. Let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. That's Psalm 95, Psalm 96, oh, sing to the Lord a new song. Sing to the Lord all the earth, sing to the Lord, bless his name. Psalm 97, Psalm 98, verse 1. Oh, sing to the Lord a new song this matters to God, so it should matter to the church. Right. Like how we worship God. Obviously, we worship through a number of different ways. Worship through preaching of the word of God. We worship God through our fellowship with each other. But Paul says, you know, with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with melody in your hearts to God. So a commitment to worship and singing, a commitment to worship through the sacraments, that's baptism, the Lord's table. Talk about just even that element of the Lord's table. We typically do it on the first Sunday of the month. Is that when you guys still do it?

[Scott Aranis]

We actually do it twice a month on the first and the third Sundays.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Better than me, I guess.

[Scott Aranis]

Yeah. Well, it's just. It's crucial, I think, of worship, how important that is. Especially you're preaching through some of the psalms this summer. You just see that come out everywhere. The scripture that's made just an important, just paradigm in my mind is that of Ephesians 5. You just quoted it. Do not be drunk or get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit. And then it says this, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart. But it's that one another aspect. And I believe when the church gathers corporately, there needs to be an element that we're worshiping together in. Joni, I take that as a means of grace that God uses not only the power of his word, but he uses the songs. We just had Matt Papa with us on Sunday night and it was such a joy just to be able to sing with a lot of the hymns that him and Matt Boswell as well as Keith Getty have written. But it just was wonderful. I would never, never undermine or underplay or overstate the role of the Word and say that worship isn't crucial, it's vital.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And sometimes it's a lopsided. Like you have people that are worship centered and then there's kind of an anecdotal message, Ted Talk. And then other times you 58 minute sermon and we'll sing a song.

[Scott Aranis]

Absolutely. Balance is needed in there.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Well, it's. Yeah. And it's a both and not an either or. And so yeah, it really does matter. And what you said, even Ephesians 5, be filled with the spirit is singing to one another. Meaning that worship is not. You're not an audience. Right.

[Scott Aranis]

No.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Biblical worship is participatory like you're worshiping. That's why it says in Colossians and in Ephesians that we sing to one another.

[Scott Aranis]

Yes.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And one of the things that I say before church, sometimes before we sing, I'll say like, hey, listen, this is not just about your heart with the Lord. People talk about like, oh, I'm worshiping. It's between me and the Lord. And it's like, no. One of the reasons we worship is so that through your imperfect voice, you would encourage someone else to make much of Jesus Christ.

[Scott Aranis]

In fact, do you not think, Joni, when you sing at Stonebridge or for us in California, there is something about corporate worship together. And I think that sometimes when you go into dead churches where people are not genuinely saved, there's not a song on their heart. So when you have a group of people that are spirit filled, walking in the spirit, singing at the top of their lungs, appropriately, God does something in the midst of that corporately. In fact, you notice it says the same thing in Colossians, doesn't it? Where it says there that we're basically singing to one another and giving thanks and psalms and hymns. And so crucial, that aspect of worship, which would include the Lord's table and baptism. Yeah.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Number six, and worthy of its own episode is prayer. Be hard to talk about singing and preaching without at least acknowledging what's worthy of a whole episode. In Acts 2:42, it says they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship and to the breaking of bread and prayer. Meaning prayer has got to be commitment of the church, commitment of the believer's life. In Acts 6, the elders are too busy, right. Taking care of needs. And it says that they elect deacons so that they can commit themselves to the ministry of the word of God and to prayer. Sometimes prayer becomes kind of anecdotal to a service or to a believer's life, but it's a primary commitment. And so it is as healthy as a church as it is committed to prayer. And that's both from a Sunday perspective. But throughout the week, the people that gather, the community groups that gather, sometimes it's easy as a community group, you know, to gather around questions. But believers in the early church, and you have to look back, they're committed to prayer. So number six and number seven would be. We wrote down just a gospel centered focus. Churches you mentioned in Ephesians, equipping of the saints to present them as mature in Christ. But Paul tells Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. And we wrote down that there's a. A local component of this and a global component to this. Maybe just talk about that commitment. A church they're not naval gazers. It's not, you know, we've talked about a little bit.

[Scott Aranis]

Have your needs met?

[John Piper]

Yeah.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

An idolatry of a healthy church, too. Sometimes where people go, as for us, we teach the Bible like we're not comprehensive, compromised. And you can have. There are churches that we teach sound doctrine, but there's no evidence sometimes of a heart that bleeds over the fact that people are going to hell and people need the gospel. So talk about that local and global element.

[Scott Aranis]

It's just. I'm thinking of our purpose statement at Grace Church of the Valley for us, that we exist to glorify God. And then we say by exalting the Savior, equipping the saints, and then that third arm is to extend the kingdom. So a church that's healthy, Joni, just affirming with you. It's preaching, it's worshiping, it's discipling, but it is extending the kingdom. And that extension of the kingdom is both local in your own sphere, your own Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, but it's also a global effect to the world. So that here, just for us, in the last four months, we just sent a family to Albania, a pastor that was serving with us that's fulfilling part of that great commission, to go work alongside my daughter and your sister, Spencer and Tara Long. And then we had the wonderful privilege back in December to send Jack and Michelle Shell Barley back to their own country in New Zealand. But we're supporting that work globally. And I think a church that's healthy is both reaching into its community and then it's reaching across the globe with the centrality, you just mentioned it, of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because we're to go into all the world. Right.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

So there should be a strategy there.

[Scott Aranis]

Oh, yeah.

[John Piper]

Yeah.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And I think sometimes there's a lack of luster in the church because there's no clear objective that's communicated or caught. You know, both things of like, hey, we're not. We're here. So you would be equipped for a purpose.

[Scott Aranis]

Yes.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

And it's supposed to minister to the body, but also to reach the world and the community around us with the truth. The last thing is really just more of an alley oop. We have eight pillars, the first seven so far. A high view of God, a high view of Scripture, every man, member, ministry, holiness, a commitment to discipleship. Underneath that banner, Christ, centered, spirit, filled, worship. That's through song, through fellowship, through our giving. Right. And this isn't exhaustive. Six would be prayer. Commit to prayer. Our Relationship with God is not a transaction, it's a relationship. 7 Is that gospel centered focus? And then here's really what I want to just touch on. And then I want to do maybe the next episode on it. Yeah, we'll talk together. Is just qualified biblical leadership. Elders that elder. And you know, I think I want to talk more about that in our next episode. What is an elder? What do elders do? And how is an elder qualified for that responsibility within a church? And I think sometimes even going back to where we started, started with Blockbuster. The quote says, change with the times or die. But I'm so thankful in a young church that I'm not scratching my head as to the playbook. I'm not trying to drop new plays. I've never read a book on church growth. I've never read a book on church strategy. Maybe that's dumb. I have. Because when we look to God's word, elders lead churches and they're given specific parameters for who's qualified to do that and then what they do. And I want to talk to you more about that. And I think. And this may be where we'll end. I think there are people who think if you're an elder, you should understand what an elder does. But if you're listening or watching and you're a part of a church, everybody, every believer, right. Needs to have an understanding of God's design for the leadership in the church. Because if you don't have an understanding of God's design for leadership in the church, you won't know if you're in a healthy one. Right. Which is one of the most important things about your own life spiritually, until you meet Christ face to face. So I want to talk about that more in our next episode. But anything before we wrap up, I just.

[Scott Aranis]

The thing. It's impossible to have a healthy church without healthy leadership. And the reason I say that is when people. Paul dropped Titus, his young son in the faith, behind enemy lines into the island of Crete, he said, I left you there that you may put into order what remains. And the idea was the Cretan churches were chaos. And I think sometimes we think Crete was just one church. There were hundreds of churches, historians believe, but he dropped Titus in there. And it said to appoint elders in every city as I directed you. And then what's fascinating there, Joni, and we don't have time here, Titus, the whole book then tells you what an elder is. It first starts out with his character, then it says what he does. His character is, is that he's above reproach. And then it gives, I don't know, maybe it's 18 qualities of what marked that man. And then it talks about his duty, how he holds fast to the word of God. So I believe without an understanding of the role of elders and deacons, it's going to be hard to model the truths that we've been talking about about today.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Yeah. So it's not anything less than very significant for any believer's life to understand what elders do in the church. That's not a term that people have come up with in the last hundred years. It's a biblical term given by God for the leadership of the church. And every believer needs to understand what that looks like. So I want to talk to you about that more in the next episode. But I love you, dad. I'm so thankful for you.

[Scott Aranis]

God, priesthood, Lord, great to be on with you today. All right.

[Joni Eareckson Tada]

Great.