A Biblical Framework for Dating | Stages, Communication & What the Church Gets Wrong

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis
Episode Title: A Biblical Framework for Dating | Stages, Communication & What the Church Gets Wrong
Host: Jonny Ardavanis
Guest: Dr. Greg Gifford
Date: June 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the often neglected topic of Christian dating, exploring how young believers—and not-so-young believers—should approach relationships, navigate communication, and understand the progression from acquaintanceship to marriage. Jonny and Greg offer both biblical principles and real-life wisdom, emphasizing the importance of clarity, intentionality, and Spirit-led discernment rather than rigid formulas. They also confront the ways technology and cultural shifts have reshaped dating, and what the church often overlooks in preparing Christians for navigating this terrain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Dating Is a Neglected Subject in the Church

• Few Sermons on Dating: Both Jonny and Greg note the scarcity of teaching on dating, especially beyond high school ("I can count on it. Maybe one hand. The amount of sermons I've heard on the subject of dating..." – Jonny, 00:00).
• Outdated Relevance: Many pastors are generations removed from the current dating landscape, lessening their familiarity with modern challenges (04:48).
• Scriptural Silence: There is no direct biblical text on dating, requiring believers to develop a "theology of dating" rather than strict exegesis (06:15).

2. How Technology Has Changed Relationships

• The Shift Since 2007: Greg links the rise of the iPhone and platforms like Pornhub to increased isolation and changing expectations in relationships (03:33).
  • "Relationships have been irreversibly changed by the Internet..." (02:35)
  • Declining birth rates and increased loneliness among young adults cited as evidence (03:33).
• Online Dating and Christian Liberty: Meeting people online is not sinful—it's a matter of Christian liberty, but it introduces unique challenges (04:31).

3. A Biblical Framework: Understanding Roles and Stages

• Acquaintance → Friendship → Deepening Commitment: The early stages are often rushed or misunderstood. Initial dating should resemble getting to know an acquaintance, not soul-level sharing (09:33).
  • "Our first three months, we're acquaintances that are moving closer to a friendship." (10:58)
  • Oversharing too early is cautioned against: "Would you tell a total stranger... ‘here is my deepest, darkest sin'? Of course not." (09:33)
• Clarifying Expectations: Healthy relationships require clarity and mutually understood boundaries, with communication matching the stage of relational depth (11:59, 16:17).
  • "If you've been dating for nine months and you don't know each other's middle name... are you really as far along?" (16:16)
• Defining the Relationship (“DTR”): Each stage calls for honest conversations about the nature of the relationship and expectations—don't let ambiguity linger (12:04; 21:09).

4. Misconceptions and Pressure Points

• Pressure to Know the Outcome Early: Both young and older singles may feel a need to decide on marriage far too early, which can sabotage healthy relational growth (00:14; 14:28).
  • "Which can actually sabotage the relationship because you've been dating for three months and you're like, so are we getting married and where are we retiring?" – Greg (14:28)
• Over-Intellectualizing Spiritual Maturity: Spiritual maturity should not be equated with theological prowess or similar church backgrounds (31:01).

5. Community and Counsel are Essential

• Don't Date in Isolation: Involving friends, family, and spiritual mentors is vital for healthy discernment, especially in online or long-distance relationships (23:01).
  • "Make sure you're around their people, not just them, and make sure they're around your people." – Johnny (23:01)
• Red Flags: Willingness to become overly absorbed in the relationship too soon or to abruptly change convictions signals deeper issues (24:03; 27:09).

6. The Balance Between Convictions and Growth

• Non-Negotiables vs. Allowing Growth: Core theological convictions should be shared, but room must be made for differences and for people new in their faith to grow (26:17, 29:09).
  • "What we know is you love Christ, you love his Word, and over time our convictions will line up." – Greg (29:45)
• Evaluating Growth and Fruit: Look for evidence of the Holy Spirit's work and commitment to Scripture above pedigree or background (29:09; 30:41).

7. Memorable Personal Anecdotes

• Jonny’s ‘Intense First Date’ Story: Early over-intentionality—"If I didn't think marriage was an option, we would not be on this walk..." (16:40)
• Greg’s Middle Name Confession: Adding humor and relatability—"It's Eugene, by the way." (14:43)
• Katie's Introduction to John Calvin and John MacArthur: Jonny pokes fun at his wife’s theological innocence, highlighting growth in relationships (31:22).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the Need for a Defined Process:
  • "The process by which those two individuals meet, get married, or date is so undefined, it's so undocumented." — Jonny (07:18)
• On Technology and Loneliness:
  • "The loneliest people, according to Pew Research, are 18 to 29 year olds... most connected, but also the most isolated." — Greg (05:05)
• On Relationship Stages:
  • "The first three months, we're acquaintances moving closer to friendship..." — Greg (10:58)
• On the Distinction of Stages:
  • "Once everything's going well, they love Christ. We love Christ. We move from friend to best friend. And it's like, dude, we're committed..." — Greg (15:22)
• On Guarding Communication:
  • "Knowing those roles is really going to help you facilitate communication... if you've been dating for nine months and you don't know each other's middle name… are you really as far along in your relationship as you think?" — Greg (16:16)
• On Community Input:
  • "Make sure you're around their people, not just them, and make sure they're around your people." — Johnny (23:01)
• On Allowing Growth:
  • "Maybe they are brand new, like just got saved last year… but they're demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit and they have a high view of Scripture… it's all good." — Greg (29:45)
• On Over-Emphasizing Background:
  • "People sometimes feel the pressure of pedigree, like, I need to marry someone that came from the same background..." — Johnny (30:24)
• On Spiritual Maturity:
  • "Make sure that you have the right evaluation of spiritual maturity… some people are never going to be readers, and some people are never going to be writers. That's not their giftedness." — Greg (31:00)

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Important Timestamps

• [00:00-04:48] — Introduction, why sermons on dating are rare, and the impact of technology on relationships.
• [09:33-16:17] — Stages of dating, communication depth, and defining roles and expectations.
• [21:09-24:19] — DTRs, moving from acquaintances to friends/dating, and protecting against unhelpful pressure.
• [26:02-31:01] — Balancing convictions, allowing for spiritual growth, and assessing maturity beyond knowledge.

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Takeaways for Listeners

The episode offers a nuanced, biblical approach to dating that emphasizes patience, the importance of clarity and communication, and the wisdom of community involvement. Rather than seeking a formula or quick answers, the hosts urge listeners to embrace a process that is marked by discernment, honesty about relational roles, and a commitment to the work of the Spirit in both parties’ lives. The tone is relaxed, conversational, and at times humorously vulnerable—making much-appreciated space for authenticity over perfection.

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For more, check out Dr. Greg Gifford's material at the Fortis Institute and Jonny’s ongoing episodes of ‘Dial In.’

Transcript

[Johnny]

I can count on it. Maybe one hand. The amount of sermons I've heard on the subject of dating or relationships, and I think all of those sermons were in high school. I used to think it was like, I had to know if I was going to marry a girl to bring her around my family.

[Greg]

That's a lot of pressure.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

Which can actually sabotage the relationship because you've been dating for three months and you're like, so are we getting married and where are we retiring? And it's like, well, hang on. Like our first three months, we're acquaintances that are moving closer to a friendship. Knowing that role helps, you know, like, what I should say, what I should say, and I think this principle will be true if you're 30 in dating or if you're 22 in dating, is that we need a season of just dating. I don't know you yet. I've seen your resume, so to speak, but I don't know who you really are. I want to get to know you. And I'll ask people this, and I do mean it graciously. It's like, could someone else talk to them the way you do and you would be okay with that? But if you're like, no, man. Like, no other dude better be calling her like this and taking her out. It's like, okay, well, you need to clarify the nature of your relationship.

[Johnny]

Greg, thanks so much for sitting down. I wanted to talk to you about dating, relationships. You know, we were just talking about before the episode that I can count on it maybe one hand, the amount of sermons I've heard on the subject of dating or relationships, engagement, courting, whatever you want to call it. And I think all of those sermons were in high school or college, you know, and as a pastor, you know, I'm a pastor of a church that's fairly multi generational. I feel like it'd almost be out of place to be like, oh, I'm gonna talk about dating, but it shouldn't be, because it's kind of the most pressing question to a lot of people. One of the biggest decisions people make in life is who they marry. And who they marry is often a derivative of how they think about dating and relationships. And so I feel like the church has not done a great job at helping people navigate this subject biblically. And so I want to talk to you kind of about a theology of dating, stages of relationship communication. I've done episodes in the past about, like, hey, just how to ask someone out. Because I think some people are just so crippled by the Idea of it.

[Greg]

Sure.

[Johnny]

But just maybe touch on why this is a neglected subject in the church.

[Greg]

Yeah.

[Johnny]

And ironically, it's something that if you're 18, you know, plus, it's one of the things you think about all the time. And there's older people in our church that are still looking for older than 18. I mean, like, that are looking for a spouse, but still wondering, how do we go about it?

[Greg]

Yeah. We are at the change of something really important. And think of. Relationships have been irreversibly changed by the Internet and then all of the technologies that go with that. Social media, YouTube, whatever. It's funny because people viewing these episodes or listening to these episodes are doing that technologically, and that has forever changed relationships and dating. This was an interesting. I have weird academic wormholes that I go explore. And one was the birth rate has declined in America since 2007, and we're not replenishing ourselves. It's like 1.2 currently. This past summer, summer of 25, there was a huge, like, scare. I mean, it's alarming because Americans aren't having babies. How long has it been declining? Since 2007. What happened in 2007? The iPhone was released.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

So you have siloing. And this is weird because these, they're like algorithmic bubbles or silos that are taking place are hurting relationships. And people are dating less. There's greater expectations.

[Johnny]

Not to mention a brothel in your pocket.

[Greg]

Yeah, Right. Same year, pornhub launches. And the absolute total devastation of pornhub on men in general. And then relationships, and then, of course, ladies too. So it's like you have the brothel in your pocket, to use those words. That's damaging. So you're warping your view of the opposite sex. So that is not. That's not distant yesteryear. That's like 2007. And ever since then, relationships are. You meet people online, primarily in Christian circles. Maybe it's our church. Not all of our churches are large, so that's hard to do. So you can't always meet someone your age there. There's like one guy and five gals,

[Johnny]

you know, how would you respond to someone that said, is. Is online dating okay for a Christian? There's no one at my church. Am I fine to go online? How would you answer that question?

[Greg]

Yeah, I would say, yeah, it is fine. It's a Christian liberty. I don't know if you can make a strong case for meeting a person online is a sin. That's wrong.

[Johnny]

Okay, keep going. I think that's a big question.

[Greg]

Yeah, so then keep teasing that out. So then you have, technology has changed. You have. The way we meet people has changed. And this is interesting that the loneliest people, according to Pew Research, are 18 to 29 year olds. And that is because they're the most connected, but also the most isolated, meaning most connected to technology, but the most isolated. So if you removed the local church and you remove a vibrant local church, many people are just straight up lonely. And that's really, really hard. I get to go to a vibrant church. You're a pastor of a vibrant church. It's like, that's great, but that's not everyone's experience. So then you now add dating to that equation and it's like, man, dating is hard because relationships have changed. There is not a clear text. So if you preach expositionally, there's not a clear text that is exclusively about dating. Like, you can make applications from Ruth, you can, you can make applications From Proverbs, Psalm 1. But then some of it is like, well, we're doing a theology, not an exegesis of something. So I do think that's why you don't hear sermons that are mentioned on it. And then the other side is like, man, my pastor's in his late 50s and it's been a while since he's dated and he doesn't have a bunch of college age students in his class. So he doesn't always have like the pastoral muscle or familiarity with what dating is like in 20, 25 or 6 or whatever it is. So then you get to the point of at master's, this is like my life to a degree. Because most of our students are 18 to 23. I teach a class called Marriage and Family that is like a fan favorite because I would love to think it was like, because I was so awesome and the students just, it's like, there's no other class like it. You know, it's the only one on relationships, marriage and family. And we start that class off by talking about understanding relationships biblically. And then dating would be a part of that. So it's like, I can't go anywhere else. I don't know anyone else that's talking about this. I don't hear sermons on this. It's really hard because technology has changed everything. Then we now have the opportunity to say, as pastors, biblical counselor, professor, whatever our role is, we have a chance to sort of say, this is the way that you should think about dating biblically. And I think one slice is to start to understand the seasons of dating and Communication. And if we just started dating, what does this mean? Or if we're close to engagement, what does this mean? So there's a lot of work to be done, and I hope to continue to do that.

[Johnny]

It is so funny that I've got little kids, I pray for their future spouse almost every night. And I think there are other parents. My prayer, Lord willing, is that the spouse my kids end up marrying has parents that are likewise praying that for them not to say that they have to marry someone that grew up in a Christian home, but just like, hey, well, that would be so cool if the man that my daughter ends up marrying, Lord willing, has a parent around my age that is right now praying over their little boy. Right? And then so you think about that and everyone's like, oh, of course. But then you go, well, the process by which those two individuals meet, get married, you know, or date is so undefined, it's so undocumented. You mentioned it, like, the Bible doesn't talk about it at great length. You know, people say like, oh, the longest chapter in Genesis is on how Jacob met Rebecca. But it's like, well, hey, listen, I'm not ministering to camels. Like, it doesn't apply to me. It's not like, do this, do this. So talk to me about those stages of communication, stages of dating. Maybe the misconceptions regarding, like, I think there's, I date everybody, right? And it's fine, or I need to know I'm going to marry them before I ask them on a date.

[Greg]

Right.

[Johnny]

Which is crippling.

[Greg]

Yeah, right.

[Johnny]

So talk about those stages and maybe the misconceptions around them. This episode is brought to you by one of our ministry partners, the Master's University. One of the things I love about TMU is their commitment to Christ and scripture. And not only that, they offer 150 different fields of study, all that are established upon a biblical worldview. This is so important, regardless of the field of study you may be going into. They offer engineering, elementary education, music, business. Some of you may know that I studied actually accounting and finance, and I'm so thankful for where I'm at today. But I was so grateful to learn finance, business, accounting from a biblical perspective. I would encourage you to check out the Master's University by visiting Masters Edu. And when you do, you can even look at our own dial in page if you go to Masters Edu Dialin and see if this would be a good fit for you. And if you use our code dial in, that'll waive the application fee for you if you're a student or for the student in your life looking to pursue higher education.

[Greg]

So I try to help our students start to frame the conversation. And one way I would frame it is by understanding roles in relationships in general. And I've said this 3,000 times, like, students, what would you share with a stranger? Would you tell a total stranger, hey, nice to meet you. This is my bank account. And here is my mother's maiden name. Also know this is my deepest, darkest sin. And it's like, ah, I just want

[Johnny]

you to know the real me. Yes.

[Greg]

Before we go any further, you need to know this about me. And would you tell that to a stranger? And almost all of the students this semester, there's 116 in there. All of them are like, of course not. And then I say, okay, well, why do you do that on your first date with people? Like, why are you going so deep so quickly? It's because you have this weird understanding of roles. So what is that? First date? More like an acquaintance. You've just met this person. What would you tell an acquaintance? Someone you work with, someone that you don't know super well. You're going to start to steward information and slide it over to them and say, I was raised in this part of town. And then they're going to say, I was raised in this part of town. So that understanding of we're like an acquaintance. We've just met, We've just started dating our first three months. And this is not a biblical number, so let's not develop like a weird. But it's like our first three months, we're acquaintances that are moving closer to a friendship.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And then after three months, we're more like friends in a dating relationship. But we're not best friends. I don't know everything about you. So we're spending the next three to six months getting to know each other as friends. Okay, so what would you do with a friend? Mutually enjoyable things. There's a depth of communication that starts to increase. You're looking for conflict resolution. You're ensuring that they're honoring and serving you and prioritizing you as well. Like, you're looking for. I initiated conversation. They initiated conversation. What would I expect of a friend? That's what I expect of someone I've been dating for four months. And the reason that matters is because if you have no expectations, you can get mistreated in a dating relationship. Like, that's the proverbial guy that has a lady that just kind of bosses him. Around or vice versa for a lady that the guy is mistreating her and she's just along for the ride. She allows him to treat her sinfully and unbiblically. And it's like, yeah, that's not okay.

[Johnny]

Yeah, of course.

[Greg]

Because you should expect a friend to treat you in a certain way.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

So tease that out. Like, how did I know what to expect? How did I know what to communicate? I understand roles and relationships. We're not an acquaintance anymore. Like, we've been dating for five months. We're friends and you're treating me like an acquaintance. Or you're keeping me at an arm's distance so you're not telling me things of depth. So what changed my understanding. So think of understanding roles as like this foundational skill. And you'd be like, greg, where do you get that in the Bible? I think that as soon as you start to say, how does the Bible communicate the way we relate to each other? You see it everywhere. There's like rapid fire passages. I have my scripture open here to Colossians 3. You have wives as a role, husbands as a role, children as a role, fathers as a role, slaves as a role, masters as a role. So there's six at the end of chapter three, beginning of chapter four. The way that a master treats a slave is different from the way that a slave treats a master. The way that a father treats a child is different from the way that a child treats a father. Wife is different from husband. Husband's different from wife. Why does that matter? Because when I understand roles, it allows me to begin to know. How do we relate to each other? According to the Bible, what are we? What are we? So we've heard the idea of like a dtr. You gotta define the relationship. How do you dtr? You DTR according to the scripture, like, what are we doing here? What is this? So back to dating. Connect it to dating. Like, what are you doing in the dating. It's like we're moving from acquaintance to friend. We've been dating for six to nine months. We like each other a lot. Like, it's still moving forward.

[Johnny]

You're not legislating the timeline, you're just giving examples, right?

[Greg]

Yeah, I think it's pretty typical, you know, because I.

[Johnny]

Especially in a college context where there might be someone that's 33 listening, going, like, I don't want to waste my time.

[Greg]

Totally.

[Johnny]

So I think the, the timeline might change depending upon your stage of life.

[Greg]

Stage of life. And if you knew the person before. Sure. Because if you knew the person before. Usually the wedding is, like, in two weeks. You started dating. We're getting married for sure. And everyone's like, yeah, yeah. But also know, like, no matter the stage of life, you're. You're probably not talking about marriage the first month.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

You know, like, you're not talking about how many kids you're going to have and whose house you're going to sell.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And Even if you're 45, you. You should still be governing those types of conversations to a degree, because you're getting to know each other. Yeah. So, yeah. Don't waste time. We're not wasting time. And I think the older you get, the more you feel that pressure to

[Johnny]

not waste time, which puts more pressure on the relationship.

[Greg]

Right.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

Which can actually sabotage the relationship because you've been dating for three months, and you're like, so are we getting married and where are we retiring? And it's like, well, hang on. Yeah. Yeah.

[Johnny]

Is that my family?

[Greg]

Right. It's like, what's my middle name? You know, like, let's still get to know each other.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

It's Eugene, by the way.

[Johnny]

Is it?

[Greg]

Yeah. You're welcome.

[Johnny]

Greg Eugene Gifford.

[Greg]

Sorry, man.

[Johnny]

Dude.

[Greg]

I tried to push for it for my sons. My wife was like, they get Gifford, but they do.

[Johnny]

So your initial spelled out is Gig. Yeah.

[Greg]

Thanks for taking me back to my fourth grade. 100%, dude.

[Johnny]

I like it.

[Greg]

Yeah. No, you don't like it. You're just trying to be kind. So I appreciate that. So, long story short away from the middle name. I don't want to stay here anymore. I want to move on.

[Johnny]

Okay. Okay, go on.

[Greg]

The reality is that season of life impacts it, but we're still thinking there's stages.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

In the stage is like, okay, friend. And then once everything's going well, they love Christ. We love Christ. We move from friend to best friend. And it's like, dude, we're committed. Like, we're starting to talk about engagement. We've met the families. We've got the blessing from families and pastors and spiritual leaders. Like, that's the. That is the final stage. And so then we'll go back to this maybe in a little bit. But think of the way you communicated each of those seasons. Like, what would you say to a stranger? That's how I started it. That's different from what you would say to a best friend. What would I say to an acquaintance? That's still different from what I would say to a friend. So knowing those roles is really gonna help you facilitate communication primarily, how deep you go and ensuring that you are volunteering information. You are speaking the truth in love. But if you've been dating for nine months and you don't know each other's middle name, which is really good. Middle name.

[Johnny]

Yeah. Eugene.

[Greg]

If you don't know that, then it's like, well, what? Like, are you. Are you really as far along in your relationship as you think you are? Knowing that role helps, you know, like, what I should say, what I shouldn't say. And for some of us, when you're at month nine, it's like you need to speak up. You need to be more communicative. You need to talk about that thing in the past that is affecting you so forth. Yeah.

[Johnny]

You know, it's funny because, you know, I remember when I was first dating someone, you know, I felt like I was just the pillar of maturity to just kind of go on a walk to the gate, you know, And I said, hey, listen, I want you to know, if I didn't think marriage was an option, we would not be on this walk. I just, like, full braces, 20 years old, like, and I remember just walking home going, like, thank you, God, that I'm so godly.

[Greg]

You know, this girl was probably amazed by me. Yeah.

[Johnny]

And then I look back, I go, what a weirdo. Like, who says that? You know, like, hey, just want to let you. FYI, I take this walk seriously. I, you know, I think that. And there's obviously, you're. You're coming at it from a Bible university. A lot of people are approaching subject from, like, just the workplace. It's like, it's just a disaster out there in the sense of, like, everyone. It's just willy nilly, people are toying around with people's hearts and, like, no intentionality. And so there's obviously the environment that you're in and I'm in with you right now. And then there's the. I'm a. I work at Salesforce in Austin, and I'm 30, and it's just terrible. And there's like a young professionals ministry, and we just all date each other and it never goes anywhere. So I think that defining the roles is really important from an acquaintance perspective of going, hey, I'm just not gonna. I'm not gonna give you everything. I want to get to know you. I want to share interests and hobbies. Let's do something fun. Let's not overthink it. Like, come you. And this is, even for me, like, I used to think it was like, I Had to know if I was gonna marry a girl to bring her around my family.

[Greg]

That's a lot of pressure.

[Johnny]

Yeah. But now it's like, I tell everyone, do it like the third date, you know, Like, I mean, like, if it's an acquaintance, you bring your acquaintances around your family.

[Greg]

That's part of how I know.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

Like how this goes.

[Johnny]

Yeah. But somehow it's like, well, if it's a girl, then. Or a guy, then, like, I have to know. And I know maybe that people would disagree with that, but it's like, I'm not. I would want to do it before it means something, you know, depending on your family situation. But, like, I really want you to get to know them in front of me. Like, when my daughter start to date, I'm like, oh, there's a guy kind of cool. I don't care. You don't have to know if you like him. Just bring him over, hang out. You know, I'm not going to ask him about, like, what he wants to be when he's older.

[Greg]

That's using right now as a parent, man.

[Johnny]

Yeah. But I think that's kind of one of those things. So let's go back to this transition from acquaintance to friend. You called it a dtr. You know, I had that conversation with Katie, like, so early because it was like, I was 27 or 26, and I think I just told her, you're my girlfriend, you know, and she. And then I said, you didn't respond to me. And she said, well, you didn't ask me. You just told me. I was like, okay, I guess, you know? But, like, is that a conversation to move from? Like, hey, we've been getting to know each other. I consider you my friend. You know, I'm just trying to think, like, how does this play out? Because I think people need, like, actual. And I had people in my life that were like, johnny, don't be weird about this.

[Greg]

Sure.

[Johnny]

But not everyone has the, like, don't be a weirdo, you know, especially to guys.

[Greg]

Yeah.

[Johnny]

So, like, what's the transition from acquaintance to friend? How does that literally go? Because I think it. There's no verse, but there are like, hey, how would you go about it if this was your son? And he's like, I've been dating this girl for two months, Dad. I like her, she likes me. We hang out. I know her middle name. She knows my middle name. I want to make sure I want her to be my girlfriend.

[Greg]

Oh, yeah?

[Johnny]

Yeah. Like, what would you say? Like, who are my girlfriend?

[Greg]

Yeah.

[Johnny]

Hey, I just like to say it how it is.

[Greg]

It's like naming it and claiming it. Johnny, I respect.

[Johnny]

You are right.

[Greg]

You are. She's like, I am.

[Johnny]

I think I just froze and told her, hey, you're my girlfriend.

[Greg]

Right, you're my girlfriend.

[Johnny]

Exactly. But how would you tell someone to kind of go about that conversation? Yeah.

[Greg]

Well, that's good communication because I would imagine if it's month two, it's like, okay, what are we? And I'll ask people this and I, I do mean it graciously. It's like, could someone else talk to them the way you do? And you would be okay with that? Because when people say we're just friends, it's like, oh, that's. And maybe you are in all fairness. So could someone else talk to that person the way you talk to them and hang out with them? The way you hang out with them? And you would be just fine with that? Because if you would say, yes, absolutely. It's like, yeah, you are just friends. But if you're like, no, I'm like, no other dude better be calling her like this and taking her out. It's like, okay, well, you need to clarify the nature of your relationship. And typically that is you are either dating and that is the term, or it's your girlfriend, boyfriend. I think younger would say dating, older generation would say, yeah, we're girlfriend, boyfriend and all you.

[Johnny]

I'm out of touch.

[Greg]

You are, dude, go ahead, let me tell you. But the, the reality is that whatever you call it, you're having to communicate the nature of our relationship. Like you wouldn't want to do it for nine months and be like, yeah, we just hang out all the time. That just feels like if I'm a lady and a guy is unwilling to commit to a dating relationship, like, what do I think is going to happen if I stick around? Non committal about engagement, non committal about marriage. It's like, that feels like a seven year dating relationship that's starting to form right now.

[Johnny]

There's a lot of those.

[Greg]

Yeah. And that's where it's like, I do think each person has a hand to play in those. Because you didn't DTR that earlier on and you didn't say, hey, I am so sorry, but we've been dating for a year and a half, almost two years, and we really need to have a conversation about what's going on here.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

So yeah. So communicate. Call that what you want. Girlfriend, boyfriend, dating. And then it's like, yeah, so what are you doing for the next three, six months we're dating, we're getting to know each other, we're doing Thanksgiving at your place, Easter at mine, and all of those. What begins to happen, and I think this principle will be true if you're 30 in dating or if you're 22 in dating, is that we need a season of just dating. I don't know you yet. I've seen your resume, so to speak, but I don't know who you really are. I want to get to know you. I want to see what kind of walk you have before the Lord. I want to see the way that you repent of sin. I want to see the way that you honor Christ. I want to get to know your church friends and see like you have a church and you have friends. All of that is going to be like a timeless principle. And Even if I'm 30, that principle is still true of like there is a season of. I'm not even thinking about marriage in terms of this person. I'm wanting to get to know this person to see if they do meet the qualifications for marriage. And I do want to marry them as a person.

[Johnny]

Yeah, I can kind of put like a lot of. You're filtering every conversation through a grid, you know, or every conversation in dating. Like I talk to guys about this where once a week they have like the. Where are we? Conversation with the girl that they're dating because there's so much pressure on it and kind of to your point, sabotages and cripples the ability just to be friends. And I think there's obviously. And then going back to this like a. Depending on the environment you're in, you may be like all intentional or have no intentionality. And so I think that's where you have to use some like biblical discernment of like and. And use the people in your life. Like a lot of people date in isolation, especially if it's like a long distance relationship. Even going back to online dating, I think there's no verse that says online dating is wrong, but it's. I would always encourage someone and I tell someone it's not wrong. Make sure you're around their people, not just them, and make sure they're around your people. And if it's a woman, it's like, hey, you might not have a dad that's involved in the process, but get some spiritual fathers kind of in your life to help you navigate the conversation.

[Greg]

And don't be. Just to add an emphasis there. Don't be complimented if that person is willing to Orient their life completely around you. On week two, that's more of a red flag than it is a compliment. It's like, wait a minute. You should have a people. You should have a family and friends.

[Johnny]

Yeah. There should be attention and.

[Greg]

Yeah. You should not be willing to go all in on me in week two. Like, that's a. That's a concern for me, not a compliment.

[Johnny]

How would you navigate the conversation? And I think kind of going that stage. And honestly, I kind of. I would say we. You know, personally, with Katie, I mean, I met her, I was like, she was leaving. I lived on a mountain. I said, all right, I want to date you. You know, because I was not going to see her. Right. Like, it was like, I got to. I gotta make a move here.

[Greg]

Yeah. You have to define the role.

[Johnny]

And I. I told her, you're my girlfriend.

[Greg]

You are my girlfriend.

[Johnny]

We dated for seven months. We were engaged for three. We were married within a year of when we met. It was kind of. Or, you know, 11 months. There were things where I would say, like, the process of acquaintance and friend was conflated. Like, it was almost one process because it was like, just the nature of the relationship. Every time I was with her, I was with her family, and it kind of, like, blended together. So it's not. I don't think you're saying it's three chunks. Sometimes those things become like, oh, wow, this is my friend, but they're becoming my best friend.

[Greg]

Right.

[Johnny]

Right. And it's not saying you can't really enjoy someone as your good friend in week four, you know, like. Or like, you enjoy them like a friend, even though there's things you don't know about them. Right. Like, how do you. Let's just say as an example, it's someone that you don't know. They love the Lord. Let's say they love the Lord. They're not just a Christian, but there's things about them that you're like, I don't know where they stand on these things theologically, or I'm not sure if they serve in the church the way that I serve in the church. How do you evaluate those things and give room for people to grow spiritually without feeling like they're checking boxes that fit your preconceived idea of whose marriage quality.

[Greg]

Good. Yeah. Good. Because I think the earlier you are in life, the more of those that have to be developed.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And the later in life, the more that are probably settled.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And I'm having to ask, are those going to change if we continue this way.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

Convictions are things that we develop from the Scripture. And that's something like, wife wants to stay at home. He's going to be the primary breadwinner. Conviction is like, where are you going to live, who you want to live by Theological convictions. There's your absolutes. We didn't start dating without you being a Christian and agreeing, like, you believe in the gospel resurrection. And then you're going to have convictions that are secondary doctrinal matters. And those are things that you can be a Christian and disagree on, but it's going to have a big impact. So if I'm super reformed and you're not, then that's going to come out in a dating relationship. So what you're looking for in that is not. I don't want you to renegotiate your theological convictions right now, but I want to know what they are for sure. And if you're going to an assembly of God church, and I'm not like, I do want to know that to a degree.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And then I'm going to be watching, like, are you willing to renegotiate some of your convictions based off the word of God? And am I willing to do the same thing? And if we're based on Scripture. Based on scripture. So if I change that on week one, red flag. Because it's like, yeah, I'll believe whatever you believe. Let's go to your church. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, hang on a second. No, no, no, no. But you're not looking for someone to Men in Black, like, their theological perspective and zap their memory, and then you, like, start rebuilding what they should believe. That feels like a very controlling relationship. Under spiritual terminology, it's like, well, what

[Johnny]

allowance do you give for discipleship? Like, hypothetical. I'm a guy. This girl is great. She's very weak theologically in her understanding of things, but a tender heart for the Lord. Weak maybe is the wrong word. She's just new. She's new to the faith. And I grew up as a pastor's kid.

[Greg]

Oh, yeah.

[Johnny]

Type of thing. Or like, I'm a missionary, but she loves the Lord. We have a great time. Or vice versa. I'm a, you know, I'm a girl. Been serving in the church my whole life. This guy just got rocked to his core by the gospel.

[Greg]

Yeah.

[Johnny]

Was living in the world. Didn't grow up in a Christian family. Does that change the way you go about those stages in a sense of like, well, they're a believer. They're getting discipled you know, I'm, I'm. As a woman or as a girl, I'm actually coordinating his discipleship, saying, you

[Greg]

should get talk to Johnny, have him

[Johnny]

decide, oh, here's Bob and Jim, you know, and over that period of time, those guys sign up, sign off on his life, and he's really hungry for the word of God. I'm just thinking like, not everyone, and not everyone meets a spouse at a Christian university or, or grew up the same way. Right. That's. I think, you know, that that'd be great, but it's not the reality. I mean, my grandparents got saved when they were, you know, in their adulthood with my dad, when my dad was eight. You know, like, things like that happen. So how would you say that shapes the stages?

[Greg]

Well, I think the foundational stage is you see the fruit of the spirit, Galatians 5. And you're using those aspect to help. See, they are walking in the Spirit, keeping in step with the Spirit, Galatians 5, 26. They have a commitment to the Bible and the authority, inspiration, inerrancy, sufficiency. Like they are committed to the Bible and maybe they are brand new, like, just got saved last year. But they're demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit and they have a high view of Scripture. The. It's. It's all good. Yeah, it's all good. Seriously. Because what we know is you love Christ, you love his Word, and over time our convictions will line up.

[Johnny]

Yeah.

[Greg]

And I may need to actually change some of mine in all seriousness to renegotiate it back to the authority of Scripture. But that person will catch up over time.

[Johnny]

He's being led by the Spirit.

[Greg]

That's right. And when the Bible is the authority for our relationship, we're both coming underneath the scripture to honor Christ. And I think a person can say, yeah, like, maybe I've been walking with the Lord longer and I know more theology, but they are a great candidate. And this is usually a guy gal. Like, the gal is more mature. She's been saved longer. He just got saved. I think she should totally be free to say, yeah, keep dating him and watch his commitment to Christ and commitment to the Word catch up to yours. And that'll be such a beautiful thing to witness.

[Johnny]

Yeah, no, it's fun. I think too people sometimes feel the pressure of pedigree, like, I need to marry someone that came from the same background. Shares, you know, like, we're a good fit based on our backgrounds. But I think that element of being Spirit led is so important.

[Greg]

And make sure that you have the right evaluation of spiritual maturity. In a higher education place, we can think spiritual maturity is knowledge, but some people are never going to be readers, and some people are never going to be writers. That's not their giftedness. They're doers and servers. They're your deacon. Deaconess.

[Johnny]

Yeah. That's important.

[Greg]

So I think if you're measured, it's like, oh, you don't read John Calvin. Like, wow, you don't love God. You know, it's like, well, that's a heavy standard. But it's like, oh, I actually see you serving in the church. You're the AV guy in the back. Oh, great. That's. That's an encouraging sign to me. Even though you don't read Calvin, you're more of a doer, so make sure the measurement of spiritual maturity is accurate.

[Johnny]

And Katie might kill me for saying this, but when I started dating Katie, I think she thought John MacArthur and John Calvin were the same person. When I said I Talked to John MacArthur, she said, what do you mean? And I said, through a necromancer.

[Greg]

Yeah.

[Johnny]

So she denies it, but she. I know she thinks they were. I think that's great because she had grown up in a totally different environment. Yeah, totally. I was so grateful for.

[Greg]

That's why she's good for you.

[Johnny]

Yeah, she's the best. And so. Well, Greg, this is all really helpful. Thanks for just the biblical principles in regards to the topic. To listen to more of Greg's stuff, head to the Fortis Institute. Greg, you release episodes every week on your podcast.

[Greg]

Yep, that's right.

[Johnny]

Great podcast. Really respect Greg's material. Thanks for everything you do to help us navigate just Christian living through a biblical perspective.

[Greg]

Thank you.

[Johnny]

Yeah. Appreciate you, brother.